Sailor Bob at James' Braha in Florida 2004 part 4

Right. I can't teach you anything. I can't tell you anything. All that happens here, I point you towards what innately you already know. And as James says, there is an art to listening. When I say, have you all read the book at all? No, you haven't, you don't want to. You won't know what I'm talking about anyway. When I say that I'm not speaking to anybody, I'm not speaking to your body. Your body's nothing without that life essence in it. You know, your eyes can't see if it's a corpse, your ears can't hear, can't taste, you can't smell. Somebody can come along and cut it, you won't feel any pain.

So really, it's only that life, that thing that's enlivening, we can't call it a thing, that gives it any senses at all. And I'm not speaking to any mind, because what mind is there apart from consciousness or awareness? How many thoughts can you have, again, if that life essence is not there? So I'm speaking to that I am that I am. That sense of presence or presence of the mind. That sense of presence or presence of the mind. Awareness of presence, or turn it the other way, the presence of awareness. That which you can't negate, the knowing that you are. Just that and nothing else.

So there's no me here speaking to you. If there is, there'll be no communication. But, this butt's coming on. If there's just a speaking, and a hearing, and I will use the term hearing or listening from the heart. And I don't mean the physical heart, nor do I mean anything supposedly on the right side of your body or anywhere else within that frame. Then if the speaking from the heart and your listening from the heart, then it's what we call heart to heart. And if you've ever had a heart, you know what that is, because, you've often felt when you've been talking to someone, my heart went out to them.

Or we had a heart to heart, you know these terms. And you know what they mean. Then if it's heart to heart, it's just essence to essence, there is no, there is communication then. Because it is that oneness. What we talk about here is, in the Hindu religion they call it non-advaita, or non-duality. Non-duality meaning one without a second. And they stipulate the one without a second, because even one implies other than one. And you'll find this teaching in all the great traditions, that's come down through the ages, it's nothing new. It's always and ever been there. In the Dzogchen scriptures, which is the ultimate of Buddhism, I don't know whether I pronounced some of these terms properly or not, but that doesn't matter, you get what I'm getting at.

They call it non-conceptual, ever fresh, self-shining presence awareness. Just this, nothing else. And they're talking about that presence awareness, or awareness of presence, that you cannot negate. The knowing of your own being, which is with all of us right now. There's no one sitting here who under any circumstances can say I am not. That knowing that you are. And that knowing translates through the mind as the thought I am. To communicate that you've got to say I am. But that thought I am is not the reality. It's a thought. It's a translation of what is actually the actual functioning within it. So the thought is not, it's the closest you'll ever get to it with the mind.

And that's another thing we stipulate here, that you'll never find the answer in the mind. Because the mind, we'll go into that in a minute. So we say here what you're seeking you already are. And you've always and ever been that. Because again, in the knowledge of Eliezer Nagant, the dog-chen, in the Hebrew scriptures they say, Here over Israel the Lord thy God is one God. There is no one or no thing other. They say none other, but translated it means no one or no thing. Again stipulating that it's only that. There's only that essence. In all the traditions they'll tell you, speaking about God or the Supreme, they'll say it's omnipresence.

Omnipotence and omniscience. All presence, all knowing, and all power. Again, nothing other than that. Have a look at this. Manifestation. I don't like to call it God, use that term, purely and simply because each of us come from probably a different tradition, a different religion, or being atheist or agnostic. And we all have our concepts of what we believe God to mean. And that can get us confused. But I think a simple term, intelligence, intelligence energy is something we can all understand. And I'm not talking about your intellect, because there are a lot of superior intellects to mine in this room right now. I'm talking about the intelligence energy that functions this universe.

That which keeps the stars in orbit, the earth going around the sun, the seasons coming and going, the tides coming in and out. It's breathing you right now, it's beating your heart, it's growing your hair and your fingernails, digesting your food, replacing the cells in the body. There's no one there, there's no person or entity there that's making effort to do, any effort to do any of those things. They're happening spontaneously, and effortlessly. It's even thinking the thoughts. But our problem is we take it to be there as a thinker there. And if you look at that body, everything can be broken down into that intelligence energy, again, pointing to the oneness of it all.

Because if you take this body, for instance, what is this body made up of? It's made up of the elements. Made up of water, earth, fire, air, space. Nothing but the elements. And all those elements can be broken down into quads, subatomic particles, into energy. So, the pattern it's formed and shaped in implies there is an intelligence there. And what's holding it together is energy, it's the same as it's holding that chair together, and this house up here, and this house and everything else. So it's just, again, so it's just that one without a second, that pure intelligence energy. And take the mind, for instance.

Is there such a thing as mind, apart from thought? And if you have a look at thought, what's thought? Thought, at the subtle level, is a subtle vibration. At the spoken level, at word, it's a bigger and better vibration, or a louder vibration, whatever you like to call it. Or more vibration. What's a vibration? Vibration is a movement of energy. So even the thought, manifesting or expressing is what we call thought, is still that intelligence energy. So if you look at it closely, you'll see there's only that, and always and ever been that. There's a Satan. Now in that way you can break this whole manifestation down into vibration, into patterns of energy.

Though it's appearing as solid and real, in essence, it's only that intelligence energy, one without a second, non-dual. Looking into this body again. So where did this body come from? We believe that I am this body. When did it start? Did it actually start when you were born? Or wasn't there an intelligence energy in the sperm, which was the essence of the food eaten by your father, or the food you ate when you were a child? Eaten by your father and mother. Or your father, the sperm was. Intelligence energy knew where to go to find its way up to the ovum. There was intelligence energy in the ovum, the essence of the food eaten by your mother.

And that intelligence energy, when those two came together, it doubled that cell and redoubled the cell until a little fetus and embryo was formed. But even prior to that, it was in the essence of the food. So you can't say it had any beginning, it can be anywhere. And if you look at it, you can go right into that and look at it and see that life is continually living on life. And during that time it's taken, you know, as it's growing, it's taking in the chi or the prana from the mother, coming in through the cord. And after a period of time, or as it's growing, and even before the brain was formed, or anything, it was able to reason and say, I am.

The little heart was beating, the blood was coursing around that little embryo. When it was born, the cord was cut, then it had to take its first breath. And in doing that, it's breathing in the chi, the prana. That's two different terms for energy. Prana is an Indian term, chi is Chinese. And even the Westerners have got some term for it, I forget what it is now. And it's getting the chi and the prana from the essence of the food and it's growing this little body. And it goes on when it's born, taking that first thing, it's not saying, well now I'm on my own, I'm taking my first breath, and I've got to breathe and got to live from it.

Even then, there is no reasoning in it. That mind hasn't started to reason. And it goes like that for about the first two and a half years, around about that time, when the child starts to reason. They're just told, his parents tell him, you're a little billy, you're a good little boy, you're a bad little boy, you're this, that, or something else, whatever they're telling him. And then he starts to realise, the reasoning happens, he says, this is me. If you look at your mind again, you'll see that the nature of the mind is always, being a pattern of energy, is always to divide, vibrate.

It's always vibrating in the pairs of opposites, interrelated. If it's not past, which is memory, it's future, which is anticipation and imagination. And within that range, it's constantly vibrating. It's either good, it's bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, positive, negative, loving, hating. Have a look at your mind, see if it functions in any other way. These things are the same. That's what I'm pointing to. There's things that need to be looked at. If the understanding is not with you right now, because it's a different, we're constantly looked out there. We've never turned and looked and taken notice of what has actually happened. See some of the erroneous beliefs we've been conditioned to look at and stay in.

So at about, as I say, I'm going about the little child, at about two and a half when he starts to reason, and he realizes that what they're talking about, he starts to get a few words, is me. Me. And what is me? What's the opposite of me? The opposite of me is not me. And for the first time, when he realizes he's starting to see things which before were just the pure seeing, there wasn't any separation as far as he was concerned from. As soon as he sees something, then this is me, and he's seeing now are not me, or other than me. So that's when the search really starts, because that's when the sense of separation comes upon us.

And separation, immediately we get a sense of separation comes upon, there's an immediate sense of insecurity and vulnerability. And from that time on, we feel insecure and vulnerable. The little child likes a warm, loving family around him. If he's got a warm, loving family, he feels much more secure and less vulnerable. Nowadays, families would form in the tribes. The bigger and stronger my tribe was, the more secure, less vulnerable. Today, nations form into nations, and nations go to war with nations for that same reason. The sense of insecurity. That nation next going to take my oil or my wealth, but if I get in first and take over his, I'll be much more secure and less vulnerable.

So you see, from that time on, our search has always been out there, not realizing, looking around and seeing that we were never separate. The Iranians' belief has come about that we're separate. And we're taught to look out there, gather, accumulate, amass. Everything we think will make us become whole. But it's an impossibility to become whole when you were never separate. And so we go on forever. And that's when we invent a god. If I can't get it now myself, we invent this thing we call God, who at some future time, if we're in a Western religion, for instance, will die and will go to a place called heaven, and maybe again at some future time will resurrect, or if we belong to some Eastern religion, we'll reincarnate.

But you see, that's going, immediately going away from what the ancients have consistently told us, that it's omnipresence. It's timeless. So all that you can see is imagination about some projection into some future time. And so we can never get it in doing that. And if you can't, see, have a look at time. Ask yourself right now, is there a past unless I'm thinking about it? And you have to pause and drop all thought for a moment and realize in that that you can't say anything. You can't say there's a past, a future, or anything at all without a thought. But when you're not saying anything, when you're in that space without a thought, you haven't fallen apart.

You haven't disappeared. You haven't stopped seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, or heartbeating. The functioning has still happened. So from that you realize that natural state, that natural functioning is going on without a thought. And the same if you anticipate and imagine the future. Pause and you can't say there is a future or a past again without a thought. And when you are thinking about the past, can you actually think about it any other time than in the present? People say, I was in the past, I was away from the now. How could you ever possibly be? You can't live a moment ago. You can recall a moment ago.

You can't live a moment in the future. You can imagine a moment in the future. And when the recalling and the imagining are going on, it's always right now. In this moment. Even a call of the moment is another concept of time. But we've got to use concepts and labels to point you towards it. So you've never been apart from that omnipresence. And how many thoughts can you have if that presence awareness is not there? So the thought I am can ever, ever be what you really are. That thought has no substance or any other thought has no substance, by that I mean it's nothing you can grasp.

Nor has it got any independent nature. As I say, what I mean by that is you can't have a single thought if that consciousness or awareness or pure intelligence or whatever concept you'd like to use for that is not there. So the thought is not independent. What has happened to that little child, that I thought comes upon us and we can't do much with that I thought so what happens? We add to that I thought all the events and all the experiences and conditioning and form a mental concept. A mental image of what we believe ourselves to be. And that becomes what we call the self-centre or the ego.

Just a mental concept, a group of concepts that because of the continuous belief in them have seemingly concretised. So when I say I am we load ourselves down with all those images or concepts and this becomes that self-centre which is fearful, insecure, anxious, and full of self-pity and all these things come about because of that sense of separation. So this thing that's kept us in bondage, the so-called ego or self-centre that's kept us in bondage and that again is what all the ancients will tell you if you look at the scriptures and all of it. So it's selfishness, self-centre, self-will. That's the problem. That's the problem when they tell us we've got to be selfless.

And try and be selfless. We might have tried those things but how many of us have succeeded? The only way to see is that self, so-called self-centre, never had any substance or any independent nature. We've been in bondage to a fiction, an erroneous belief. So that's a bit of a rough outline. We'll leave it go at that I think and we can start some questions. If you want. You cured me of the questions last night and I can't think of anything to say. You haven't stopped being without a question, have you? No. Still are? A deepening. Is that just that you're less apt to get lost in the story?

You can get lost in the story, alright. We're going back to the erroneous belief. But can that presence awareness, which is omniscience, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipotence, can that ever deepen? Like it's no thing that the mind can grasp. Emptiness. Or they use the metaphor space-like awareness. Now can space ever deepen? It has no centre, has no circumference. So it's not that essence that can ever, nothing can be added to it, nothing can ever be taken away from it. But the clarity, there might be more clarity when the chatter, the energy, the cloud-like energy that's vibrating in the mind settles down in the understanding. There must be much more immediate clarity there and you can classify that as a deepening if you like.

But once you're seeking you already are, you can only, can never be that. As which I say, nothing can be added to it. Nothing taken away from it. You've actually been looked at Veda before, have you? Presence awareness that's here with us now. Is it, could you give that any qualities? Can you say anything about its qualities? It's, they call it, another term they use for it is cognising emptiness. Now turn that around the other way. If you investigate here and see that the self-centre is a fiction, what's here? Emptiness. But that emptiness has the capacity of knowing, of pure intelligence. So if you like to call that a quality, that's the only quality it has.

It has that, it's not a void or a vacuum, as some like to call it. It has that capacity of knowing. And that's with you right now. I'm not talking about your intelligence, I'm talking about the activity of knowing. You cannot negate that knowingness. Under no circumstances can you ever say, I am not. You can mouth the words, but to be able to mouth the words, means that there's a knowing there in which you're able to say them. In this presence awareness, it doesn't necessarily result in a better life or better health? Not necessarily, no. The only thing you can say about it really is that psychological suffering is not necessarily, it drops away.

Because if you look at it closely, it's only in me that can be fearful, it's only in me that can be anxious, only in me that can be full of self-pity or angry. So me, that self-centre, which has become the reference point, is the cause of all my suffering. Now what they call, there's cause and effect is what they call karma, isn't it? So if you see that the cause is a fiction with no substance or independent nature, and ask yourself, can there be an effect without a cause? Can there? So these things must, seeing the cause as a fiction, and there's nothing to refer them to, when you see what you're constantly referring to is an erroneous belief, a false image, the effects must drop away of their own accord.

Because the energy of belief doesn't go into the idea or the concept of a me anymore. And so all that, doesn't mean to say there won't be pain, physical pain, physical pain is a sign that all is not well with the body. Do something about it. It's the body's message, you know, which it can't do that without that life essence in it, but you know, this is the body's message, do something about this. And that was the Buddha's story, you like to be rid of that psychological suffering. And it's a fact. All those things have dropped away here. It doesn't mean to say you'll be emotionless, and all these emotions won't come up, the fear, anger and all the rest of it, but there's no, not fixated on, and concretized like they were before.

And that energy, if they're not fixated on, that energy is free to flow. And that's what our problems become. When there's any fixation on them, there's a resistance to what is. What is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, just as it is. And that resistance, any resistance is a subtle conflict. And any conflict is disease. You're not at ease if you're in conflict or you're uncomfortable. The mind is an instrument. Yeah. The mind is used for self-inquiry. Right? Yeah. The mind is used for when we get stuck in a thought that we're constantly grasping at. We use the mind to go full stop. That will come up as a thought, but I want to say the recognition of it will come up, you know, appear from that intelligence, just like the seeing is happening now.

And then it'll be translated full stop or something like that. But the mind is, you know, as I say, this mind vibrating in the opposites, it's a wonderfully creative instrument. This house was an idea in somebody's mind once. So was the technology. So was the chair, the table. Everything was an idea in somebody's mind. Most of these things we've built and invented and all the rest of it. So at that end of the scale, being a vibration, it's a wonderfully creative. At the other end of the scale, it becomes self-destructive because it tells us we're a limited human being. I've got no self-esteem. I can't do that.

It's putting all these concepts we put upon ourselves that put the limitations or the boundaries on us. And so the fear and the self-pity and the anxiety all arise from that erroneous belief. So it's still that same intelligence energy. Vibrating as thoughts, feelings and emotions. The mind can be used. There's no me that can use it because the me is an idea that there's some entity. The mind is used. A person who has seen, is dwelling in that no mind, no personality state in which fear and envy and jealousy, all those kinds of things, have pretty much dropped away, although they come occasionally. Does that person with basically no personality, do they, and I think I know the answer, but I just want to hear you say it, do they still have preferences such as wanting to live on the beach, liking tall blondes, that kind of stuff, certain foods?

Or does that modify too as the person sees that there's no person there, so to speak? In other words, the personality's gone, but there's still personality characteristics that... The functioning still goes on. There'll be choices made, but no choice maker. There'll be preferences held, but no preference maker. There'll be beliefs held, but no entity that has those beliefs. See, we attribute that to a person through our nature and our conditioning, but these things have been going on all the time. See, people say, I choose. If you were able to choose, why the hell would you ever have another happy thought? Why would you ever feel sorrowful or angry or fearful?

We can't, you know? For the last 14 days, there's been a very large preference involved for food, just to let you know. That's why I was laughing when you said, are there preferences? He definitely has preferences when it comes to food. And a few other things too, but they're not mine. I don't have any guilt over them because they're not mine. Would you perhaps speak on nothing changes? Well, nothing changes. What do you mean by that? Well, I know from when I first sat with the psychodata. What, in the living it... Nothing changes. It doesn't. You just go on. The livingness happens. You go broke with money, you have money.

Oh, yes. So I live with you. Yes, and that's... Well, I think life still goes on the same way. The pairs of opposites functioning. But just like the little child is functioning from the natural state, you know? If he's hungry, he'll cry. If he's happy, he'll gurgle or whatever and goes on playing and doing all these things. And this is what we call just the natural state. That's a natural state without an entity, a seeming entity, any belief going into that idea of an entity again. Any energy of belief where it's bringing about that sense of separation. There won't be emotionless or they'll come up, but they're not clung to and don't hang around.

They're free to flow. What about ego thoughts? Somebody... Say that somebody realizes their essential nature. Reference points still come up. Preferences can still come up. And how about somebody, you know, realizes their essential nature and they also have thoughts, oh, I want to be great. I want to have a following. I want to have... Is that... I mean, the thing is you would think that when that comes up, they would say, oh, wow, now I've realized. You know? This great thing and realization has taken place and I want a lot of followers. Wouldn't the next thought be I who wants the followers? Yes. But it appears that there are teachers, some might say, oh, they're frauds because they have big egos.

Others would say, well, no, they're not frauds. That's just a personal preference. What say you? But how can I have a personal preference if there's no person there? Well, how did you have a preference for the food or a preference to come here? Things happen. Things happen. Exactly. Things happen. Well, couldn't a happening be... Well, happenings can be like that, but there's no doership in any of it whatsoever. So they could. They could have... Just like... A preference could arise for them to say, oh, it would be nice to have lots of followers. It just... Possibly could. It wouldn't be their preference, but a preference would arise.

You could say that. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. It's very confusing. I have seen at least one teacher who appears to be in certain respects in the natural state, full understanding, and yet appears to have a huge ego. I'm not talking about a fraud, someone who I think has no clue what reality is. I'm talking about someone who appears to be beyond desires and fears and yet appears to have a huge ego. Who to? Could I interject something? Hold on one second. Who does he appear to have a big ego to? Me. So, there you go. You got a reference point there.

A judgment there. What I'm asking is, so they could, so a preference could arise in them to be adored or followed. It just wouldn't be a personal preference. If they understand, no. Or even if they don't understand. That's still what's happening. You know, everybody is already that. They can't be anything other, whether they understand or not, in essence. See, the pattern, they're only a pattern of energy like everything else is a pattern of energy. And the pattern can display in all appearances and possibilities, any way which so ever. But in essence, it's still that functioning intelligence energy that's never ever changed its true nature. I was going to interject that the mind, the predisposition of the mind, takes in all the sensory input, the data from the sensory input, and the ego develops this abstract self-image to relate all that information to.

And as Bob pointed out, the real essence of who we are, the true self, is prior to thought. So the ego is really an abstraction, and these preferences are the ego's preferences. And as such, they do exist because they have feelings and emotions attached to the thoughts which affect us in our physicality. But what's unaffected is that true self that's prior to all of us. And sometimes we, like the fallen angel, become sensory again. Yeah. All those things hit that self-image because that's what we're related all to. But if we take the vantage point of true self, then those are non-existent. One's looking in the mirror as it is in your bathroom and seeing a physical self, and really the mirror is the mirror of consciousness that we want to see the reflections in.

The ego being a reflection, it's got no power anyway. Like the reflection in the mirror. The mirror is never contaminated by any of the reflections that are in it. And when you go up to the mirror, you can't say there is not a reflection there, because there appears to be one. But you go up to it close and try and grasp the reflection, you can't say it is there, because there's nothing substantial or with any independent, there's no reflection that's independent of the mirror. There's nothing substantial there. You can't grasp it. You can't say, hey, I'm not there. I'm not there. That is. Well, you can't say it isn't.

Just like the dream. I'm also, I don't know what James is saying, but what Nathan Gill talks about, you know, in Clarity, he says, you know, if those aren't preferences, that's just part of the lila, that's the role that's just going to happen as it is, that's just going to go. There isn't really no preferences, that's just, that's your script. That's your role. That's just going to happen as the film's going. If it's just what is, it's unalterable. It's unmodified, uncorrected. No preference, no partiality, no comparison. Just as it is. Where we're not attaching or fixating, where there is no fixation on anything or attachment to anything whatsoever.

And it's free to move, so it'll come up and display. Move on. And James, you should know, Bob certainly had no preference. We had a phone call or an email or something, would Bob come to a marriage? He said, no, he's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. He's not. We returned a message, a telephone call or an email or something, would Bob come to a marriage. And he said to me, look, this guy wants me to go to America, we'll do that.

They can come to me. Because people, for some reason, were coming to our house from all over the world. And Bob did nothing to do that. His book came out, I suppose, and that's how people knew he existed. But he really resisted coming here. But the happening happened. Who resisted? Well you didn't even resist, you just looked down and somehow, suddenly... And how could I resist? The oneness made James be persistent. Well all the questions, no matter what understanding we think we have, always come back to another question, which in fact has nothing to do with what Bob's talking about, because the questions are just happening, they're not happening to anyone, but to get that is another ball of wax.

That's why we say you'll never find the answer in the mind, because the nature of the mind is to divide. The nature of the mind is dualism, and dualism can never understand non-duality. And it continues to divide and go down this track, and that's... where people split it up, and psychiatrists and psychologists and everybody else split it up, subconscious, super-conscious, this sort of conscious, that sort of conscious, and something else, and so on. It goes on forever. But it's all one essence, no matter in what variety it appears in. And seeing that and understanding that, you know that you can't be anything other than that.

Even if we've got this limited opinions and ideas about ourselves. They call God the Supreme Being. You call yourself a human being. Take away the label human, take away the label supreme, and try and separate the beingness. There's no one in this room that's not being. Without the label, you can't divide that beingness. So it's only the words, or the labels, that put the separation or the division on us. And the word, it's another thing that needs to be looked at, and see that the word can never be the thing. The map can never be the territory. You can say water, water for the rest of your life, you can't drink the word.

The word fire doesn't burn your mouth when it's coming out. If you've got a label chair, try and sit on the label, you know. So when the word me comes up, or I, what are we talking about? It's just the labeling of that sense of presence. The knowing that you are. That sense of presence expresses, as the thought, I am. The label. So I am is only the label. And we add things to that label, other labels to the label, and take that to be real. That sense of presence is something that cannot be grasped by a thought, because it contains the thought. The thought can never contain it.

To the mind, that knowingness, that sense of presence is no thing, because it can't be grasped as a thing. A thing is an object. So all thoughts are objective. That knowingness, or emptiness, or concepts we put on it, whatever concepts we put upon it, the essence is no thing. So the answer can never be found in the mind. And if you look in your dictionary, and we say this is a phenomenal universe, it's called phenomenal. Look in your dictionary and see what the word phenomenal means. It means that which appears to be. So this whole manifestation is phenomenal. And the opposite of the manifestation is an appearance.

And the opposite of the unmanifest is the unmanifest, which is no thing. Look in your dictionary, the opposite of phenomenal is numenum. Look up the word numenum in the dictionary and see the unmanifest, or the no thing, is that which is. So we've known it in our language all along also. But we, you know, disregard these things. ... as creation. And human beings being at the top of the evolutionary ladder. Because we're the only animal, or creature, that is aware that they have a thinking brain. If we were to look out into space and take away all the labels and just see creation, we would know the difference between the creator and the creatures that he created.

And this is, I've heard it put, that this is Nirvana and Samsara. Or Heaven and Hell, and it's what we make it. If we free the mind, our world follows. It's the entrapments and the attachments that the mind attaches itself to that creates our suffering. The potential for both are in our existence. It's, if we don't, the mind is a wonderful instrument. It has the capacity. It has the capacity for creativity and destruction as well. And it's the only instrument that the universal energy that you speak of has at its disposal to express itself. In this phenomenal realm. So our mind is its tool. That's tool.

Yes, but you see, in reality there's nothing ever being created. See, the mind is a fiction itself. It's all patterns of energy, shapes and forms. In essence, it's still that. So the patterns and forms are insubstantial. This is seemingly solid. A physicist will tell you it's travelling at such a speed it's seemingly solid. That energy is vibrating. And then again, we take ourselves to be the ultimate. But you go out 15 million light years into space, look back on this earth where it's less than a speck of dust, and it'll be just like the little microbes that are crawling around your body right now. Why about a few million of them just like that?

And the space that's there is the same space that's there. Yes, exactly. That's what the omnipotence is. 15 million light years away is right now. And this is taken from some reference point. And there's no centre to space, so there can be no circumference to it. And no matter, you know, whatever you think of or postulate, can you postulate or think of anything outside of space? That's omnipresence. It's everywhere. It's the air we breathe. It's the ground under our feet. So the content, all this manifestation, all this world around us, is the content of space, isn't it? So space is no thing. It's got no shape, no form.

So can something come from nothing? It's nothing, but it's everything. Yeah. Something can't come from nothing. So this is not as it appears. It's no thing. It's just that still that space-like awareness, or whatever you like to call it, that intelligence energy. It's no thing. It's appearance. I can piece together, I think, Nrsagadatta met this guru for the first time when Nrsagadatta was about 34. And Nrsagadatta obviously was... already living his true nature. But his guru told him something which allowed him, three years later, to realize that true nature. Well there, until the rest of his life. Kind of like a little assignment, you might say.

In your path, the way you teach, is there any particular, you know, practice or austerity or... mindful exercise or anything of that sort that you would recommend? Just the same as Nrsagadatta, when he's come back to stay with the I am-ness. He's not talking about the thought I am. He's staying with that sense of presence. The knowing that you are. Which you can't negate nor can you get away from. Stay with that. Yeah. As much as... And realize... And realize that you can't get away from it. Even if you think, like as I said earlier, we think we go into the past and the future.

But when it's actually happening, it's always now. That sense of presence or awareness of presence and the presence of awareness. Are you ever out of that presence of awareness? Right now, are you? You're away from that presence of awareness? Yes. You are. How can you be away from it? Well, I'm not dwelling there. I'm thinking about what you're saying. Yeah. But you say you're not dwelling there. But could there be even any thinking of what I'm saying without that presence of awareness? The presence of awareness? You say you're not dwelling there. No. So actually, you are dwelling there. But there's a seemingly cloud formed on it.

You see? And we'll use a metaphor, space-like awareness. Now, the awareness... The space is empty. And as I talked about cognizing emptiness, it has the capacity of knowing. We can liken that cognizing part of it to the sun. So the sun can't fall out of space or out of the sky, can it? So now clouds form and seemingly block the sun, which is saying you're away from that awareness. But what causes the cloud? Sensory impacts. I'm talking about... I'm just using that metaphor. Have a look at it from the metaphor, from the sense of the metaphor, rather than yourself. Atmospheric conditions. Yeah. The sun itself causes the cloud.

Because the sun heats the water and evaporates the water, forms a cloud. And the sun can cause a change in temperature or something like that, and the cloud will come down as rain or disappear. So you see, the sun has never left the sky, even though we think it's a cloudy day and it's obscured. And in knowing the truth about that, you're not dwelling there. You're not taking in by the belief I've lost it or I'm away from it. See? Just as I said, go down to the sea and get me a bucket of blue water out of the sea. It's a beautiful blue sea.

What would you say? Don't be ridiculous, wouldn't you? You can't get any blue water out of the sea. But it doesn't stop it from appearing to be blue. So it'll still appear to be blue, but you know the truth about it. And that's the essence of it. That's scriptural saying. Know the truth and the truth will set you free. In knowing the truth about it, you're not taking in by the belief I've lost it or I'm away from it. You're not taking in by it, though it still appears the same. You're not taken in by the cloudy sky and believing the sun is not there.

Just like years ago, people looked at where the sky and the sea meet. They'd say, if I go out there, I'll fall off the edge of the earth. And they believed it because they hadn't investigated. On investigation, they said it's impossible to fall off the edge of the earth. But it still looks as though it ends at the end of the thing. So... That's why they use the metaphors or the thing of illusion, you know. Now, those clouds that form in the sky, is there ever a cloud that's attached to the sky? Not. And when you look inside and try and find where a thought is attached to or a concept is attached to, all you can find in there is emptiness.

There's nothing that's attached to it. So it's just like a cloud. But when that belief in that entity is there and seeming, attaches to it or fixates on it, we fixate on a thought, we're not allowing its free flow. And that free flow, we get lost and bound in it. What do we do to facilitate the free flow of those thoughts? What have you got to do about your breathing? Or your heart beating? It's happening spontaneously. Now, do you choose a thought? No. And thoughts are continuously coming up, you know. Just in the seeing. You know, investigate and have a look and see. There's no fixating on them anywhere.

There is fixation seemingly happening, but there's no one to fixate on them. Even seeming fixation might seem to occur. Treat it like the cloud, you know. There's no attachment to it. You can't believe it after a while again because... As waves arise, they just do on the water. Exactly. And the water looks blue because it's a reflection of the sky. But it's never anything other than water, no matter how many waves are there. And they're not silver. I have been enmeshed in the clouds for the majority of my life. And for whatever reason, being with you, I was able to know, can one go get back and get lost in the clouds again?

Look, once you see through something, could you ever go... Could you ever go and try and get a bucket of blue water out of the sea again? I've tended to do that my whole life. No, but I'm saying, in understanding that it's never blue or not blue, could you ever... Would you ever attempt to find... To go and think you can get a bucket of blue water out of it again? You've seen through it. So why does this question keep coming up for me? It'll come up. It'll come up. I want a guarantee from you. Yeah. The blue sea still appears to be. Yes. Yeah.

Just have a look again. Have a look again and see if what's coming up, if the clouds are fixated anywhere. And when are they happening? Where are the clouds happening? When? When are they happening? When you say you get seemingly caught in it again, when? What time? Well, isn't it now again? Yes. It's just appearance on that now-ness, isn't it? It's just that presence. So look through what's appearing on it and see that this essence is presence. It's not happening at any other time. But you're seeing the cloud as a cloud rather than seeing its true nature or its essence as presence. And you can rejoice in that.

Well, even though there's clouds here, that's presence awareness. I'm not away in... Relax in that. I think I read this in your book, but... I mean, up to a couple of days ago when I walked out, not thinking, does the body, the ego, which I know is nothing, but can there be reactions? There'll be responses. Because I'm not sleeping. There'll be responses all the time. Responses will come up. Okay. And that's, I just have to like wake up in the middle of the night and go, okay, okay, it's just a thought. Yes, just relax. Over and over and over. I'm not sleeping. Yes. You've attributed it to an essence.

You've attributed it to an entity. And then there's going to be a conflict. You want to sleep, so there'll be resistance to not sleeping. And that resistance is conflict which will keep you awake. And you can't do anything about resistance. Because there's no doer of such. All that'll happen is you'll recognize the resistance. And then the recognition of it must be from the point of non-resistance. If you're totally resistant, you don't know it. But unless you recognize it from a point, then you're back there again in that non-resistance. And that might only stay for a second until an old habit pattern, that's all it is, is a habit pattern, might catch you again.

Because those habit patterns have been going on for years. It's easy to slip into it. But once having seen through it, it can never have the same intensity of belief in it anymore. And when the energy is not going into the belief, which is another reference point, the belief is never the actual. The belief cannot live then without energy. Nothing can live without energy. So it must dissipate and fall away of itself. It's not a matter of doing something or trying to do something. Because that brings in the doer and the resistance again. It's just a matter of seeing, seeing, seeing. I just thought it was funny because that's one of my weak things.

I'm not sleeping. And normally I'm okay, but it's just interesting all of a sudden it's like there. There's probably more energy being released in the moment too, which was interesting. Right. And energy was being worn out and conceptualized and it was going on all the time. That energy is being freed up and it might enliven you a lot more. You expressed one time, if I might interject, that as people and things have no control over us, it's our reaction to them that gives them their power. So we're giving up our power, energy to them, to a non-thinking thing and our reaction to it. Right. So we enliven it.

We give it life. It becomes something by our reaction. Our resistance. Our resistance, yeah. Could I address the question that you asked earlier about the path? Step Steve. Steve. Yes, please. The path is two points. Going or coming. And the awareness. You asked if there was a practice. I did ask if there was a practice that Bob did to maintain that place. But a path leads to or from home. Once you become aware of that present awareness, you are home. The path is useless anymore. It's like the boat used to get from one shore to the other shore. Once you're to the other shore, you don't put the boat on your back and continue on through the town.

It served its purpose. In the same sense, once you realize where your home is, there's no place else to go. Because that's what we've been seeking. That's the one thing in time thing. Once you realize it. On August 10, 1973. But I think that someone was saying that realization does ebb and wane. You know, I'm going to exercise. I'm not going to exercise. And that's what I'm saying. That's the part I quote, my mind is trying to get something to carry away with. Because I can feel it when I'm at that moment in time dwelling there and when I'm not dwelling there. It's as if the person with the spectacles is looking for spectacles in their own forehead.

We look through, I look through life. I know what you're talking about. We look through life through steam colored glasses. And there are times we just need to put the spectacle away and realize. All the time. Yeah. Well, you can't do it all the time. Well, not life. Knowing it. Everything you said is absolutely true. The mind, I've heard it said that the mind is molded by the mantra it mentally repeats. That's what I'm looking for. How does all this sound Bob, to you? Is this making sense to you? It's all conceptual. It's all conceptual? Yeah. It's all about a man that's got to do something.

Unless the heart truly opens, this is what we have to be weary of for a little bit of news. And I get caught in doing something for me in conversation and all the right things are said. And that has its own place and value because that could open you up too even from that conceptual place. So there's value in this conversation. But I'm noticing as a, see if I was in it I might get more absorbed conceptually. But sitting here I notice I could play back and just. And I'm not saying I'm doing it all the time. And really want to open my heart to be it rather than, you know, it's so easy to get caught in that tunnel of slight contraction, you know, conceptually about it.

And so it's always an opening. Like a form of a rapture. The true rapture. The true rapture is when the mind is embraced by the heart. Compassion arises out of that. Compassion for oneself and for every other living creature as well. And out of that marriage. That's the wholeness though that we see. But if I'm not really honest looking in my heart with love and not with that kind of need to know, that's what I was noticing while watching this. And that's kind of like, because I have a habitual need to know. A habitual need to contract myself. What do you conceptualize your heart as?

What? Your heart, when you say looking in your heart. What is it? Oh right. Come up with my, the ability just to be. Isn't the heart just a symbol you use for the core of your being? Not the physical part, right? The core of your being. Isn't that open right now? Excuse me? Isn't that open right now? Yeah. And also when I say heart, I mean like a realness, a real sense of honesty. To go along with that, like in the realest, in the most real way. That sounds, coming up, that's how it is expressed. How's that understood? Right. Because to me, if it's not from the heart, then you'll get a little bit contracted into a conversation, subtly, whether it's subtly.

I talked about compassion, that natural compassion will manifest also. It's already there in that core, or that spirit, that essence. All these things are already there. We don't have to manufacture them. So to soften into it. It's that intimacy that we long for. Like Bob was saying, it's looking another individual dead in the eyes and talking from your heart through the eyes into the other heart. It's a heart to heart connection. That's intimacy. Not in a physical, sexual way. But that's true intimacy. That's purest form. It's heart to heart. I'm just curious, because I've intellectualized my whole life, and I've been on the so-called path for decades, and I intellectually could get what you were saying in your book and what others have been saying.

So why though did I have to come in here, sit down next to you, do nothing, and apparently realize? I have heard that you get it through the teacher. A teacher passes it on. Does that mean that no one can do it, no one can realize without a teacher? When it's good. That's good. In the hearing of it. If something resonates with you, tell it innately, you innately already know it. Everyone knows it. It's that natural state that's seemingly obscured by the cloud of reasoning. See, reasoning, when we start to reason, we seemingly obscure the natural state, know what's going on. We're breathing, you're beating your heart, grinding your hair when you're thinking, I was doing all that.

Quite evidently. But we get into it. In the reasoning, we're all learning stuff. You see, I call that a quiet mind, though there's not two minds. But you'll notice from that, everything is learned. It's all learned stuff. And that's why the cloud of seeming is killed, the natural state. So already resonating inside of you. You already know it. Because that natural state is still living. In hearing it. If you pick it up in a book or hear it or something like that. That's it. It's recognizing yourself. That's all that's happening. And then you go along and say, I get it intellectually. That's a label. If that label is not there, what is it?

You get it. Full stop. Well it's understood. Full stop. We put that label on it. And we put a boundary or limitations on ourselves again. Say, thinking there is some other way or something else that has to be done together. We miss out on the simplicity of it. And that has bothered me. It's like Barbara said. It's just living this, you see. I'm still thinking I'm going to be reading people's minds and seeing lights. Who knows? Who knows? It's so simple that it's driving, the ego is going nuts, you know. I think it's the ego that intellectually gets it. Yes. Because the true Tao can't be spoken.

It's something that is just known from within the organism of the being. It can't be spoken. That's why so many words are spoken about it. Point, the words can only point to what it is. And it's something that you will know when you know it. You can't speak of it because it's something that you won't have the words for either. It can be eloquently pointed to, but the knowing just happens. And when it happens, you'll know it. But the ego directed me to this house. The ego, as I said, has got no power. All right, yes. But it comes, see the ego is a translator like that.

Intelligence. And it's a translator through a thought. I'll go to there, I'll do this. It's the mind's predisposition to divide, to break the wholeness. It drives that wedge of separation. Like take the marriage model, for example. If each one gives 50%, who gets the other 50% that they're not giving? Two 50's do make 100, but it doesn't make a whole. Each one needs to give 100% for it to be whole. Anything less is separation. And they drive, we tend to drive that wedge of separation and it manifests itself as a reality in our life. As an actual separation and ultimately in a divorce court, in the marriage model.

But the same court of law applies in the mind. If you constantly put the wedge of separation in there and recognizing the ego, we have to recognize the ego. Our true essence is the nominal, which can't be spoken. I want to ask something. Is there anybody here who has a question for Bob that doesn't want to ask it? Anybody got a question? But are holding back from asking it? Yes, there are. There are? Yes. Who? Oh, not me. You know me, I've been... There are? I'm just saying yes, there are. There are questions, I'm sure. Is it a suggestion to go ahead and ask them?

Yes. Or is it... I'm just saying if there's anybody... He's giving permission. Sometimes people have questions and they... When I teach astrology, there's almost always people that have questions and they refuse to ask them sometimes. Sometimes that's one of the most interesting ones. Yeah, they have the most interesting ones but they keep them private and I'd like to hear them if they've got a personal preference. I have a question about something that Ann was saying that you were talking about before about the preferences of to go out and teach and have those disciples. And as Nathan Gill says, if that's the role and that's what's going to happen as it is, then if Ann, if the role is on your script to have bells and whistles and lights go off, then so be it.

That's what it is going to be. Yeah? Or no? It happens, doesn't it? Right. Okay. How does your... Could you talk a little more about how your script becomes formed? This is what I'm trying to say. I'm just saying... I'm just saying... I'm just saying... I'm just saying... I'm just saying... I'm just saying... I'm just saying... The mind dividing? What? The mind dividing into good and bad, or...? The mind dividing into good... The script all comes from your mind... Yes, perhaps... Or where is it from? Or like astrology... It appears to come from the mind, you see? Everything is valid in the appearance. And that's all it is, it's appearance.

And yes... And you talk about the mind dividing. That's all the mind condemns. Think about it with me. that's all the mind can do, is divine. But the mind can't do a thing if it's not that presence of awareness and knowing that you are. You couldn't have a single thought. It's got no independent nature. So, thinking happens. Thinking comes up. What happens is, when another thought comes up, I think, I think this thought. So the thinker and the thought are conceptual. They're contained in the thinker, just the same as the seeing. You're seeing right now. A thought comes up, I see. That becomes the pseudo-subject.

And the thought comes up, I see the lamp, or whatever I see. That becomes the object. And if you ask yourself, can there be a subject, can there be a seer without seeing? Can there be the see without seeing? So the seeing is the actuality. The seer and the seen are conceptual. The same with the thinking, the feeling, the tasting, touching, smelling. So that seeming division, mental division or labeling, brings about the sense of separation. And actually, the actual functioning is that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking, or whatever it is. And that expresses a thought or activity, and activity is going on. Whatever that activity was.

That's what it might be. And it doesn't invalidate anything in the appearance. But it's only appearance. In essence, it's still the same. So there might be some patterns that are clear, but won't have telepathy and all these things. It's still only appearance. What's the point? Yeah, what is the point? What is the point of the presence awareness? There can only be a point for someone. I want to know what's the point of being in the presence awareness. I want to know. Tell me, so my mind can get it. You're not in delusion. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Is the point for consciousness to reflect itself and see a part of itself from the aspect that it...

a vantage point that it otherwise wouldn't have known? Possibly. Like I was saying... As I say, they call it space-like awareness or emptiness. Cognizing emptiness. Now space can't see itself, can it? So what happens? Space vibrates. Look at that dynamic in it, that energy. It forms a pattern. Now, what's the first thing you see? First thing I see? In what respect? Well, you're seeing what happens. Canons. Well, is it? Have a look. What's the very first thing you see? Oh. Give me a second. It's right in front of you, but go ahead. Take all the time you want. It is behind you. First thing I see is awareness.

I think it's just... Well, space, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Space. So, that's the only way space can see itself. Right. Space can't see itself as a new... So I see a big pattern falls around. It forms around it. And the first thing you see is space. And then all the content of space. But our focus... goes immediately into the content. Because the space is no thing. It doesn't hold anything. But you don't want to forget. But the content... If you look at the content of space, space is no thing. Can't something come from nothing? In reality, no. So the content is nothing. It's space also.

Right. Space is just seeing itself. So that way... And then focusing on the content, we take little notice of the space. As I say, you can ask... Well, now everybody's been pointed to. Everybody will say the first thing I see is space. But prior to that, most people you ask, I see this, I see that. They just ignore the space which is contained. So the same thing in awareness. This manifestation is the content of awareness. Even space is the content of awareness. But we never notice the awareness. The focus always goes out into the content. Instead of staying with what you are right now. That is your open-heartedness.

That is your beingness. That is your essence. Nowhere to go to get it. How far are you going to reach the quiet, quiet space? Wherever you look, wherever you see, wherever you feel. Same with awareness. And Nas has... I call him Nas, but Nas of Gaddafi, he said that consciousness arises in awareness. That consciousness is contact with content. Yeah. Yeah. And again, awareness, consciousness and mind are one and the same thing. Again, they divide. You see, it's just like water vapour, water and ice. Water vapour you can say is like awareness, just the essence. Water is like consciousness, the content. And when the ice forms, you've got shape and form.

All the manifestation is shape and form. So really, in essence, the water, vapour, the state, the water, the mind, the water and ice are still only water in essence, aren't they? Or we can break it down into H2O, which is just a gas. Gas is nothing. That's going to go right into nothingness. And that's what we continue to do. We continue to buy into those things. Instead of seeing the simplicity of it, it's that simple that we miss it really. You start conceptualising it, man, and you get lost. All the time this has been going on, has anybody been able to say, now this is how I am known?

So conceptually speaking, you're saying that awareness is the cell and the proton and the neutron are consciousness and mind, but all three are one. It's like three spheres, but when they all come together, they're only one. So that's the honesty I was talking about before. It's like as we're talking, it's still a me talking. Like your head. Just like you just said. So we suddenly get caught into the conversation, trying to find this place that you're talking about. But in the meantime, what's going on in the heart, my term for heart, is that there's your feeling of me, at this moment, talking, trying to figure this out.

So you're not really looking deep enough in that sense. Not looking, but you're not being honest enough to really see the dynamic on that level of what you're doing right now. As you're talking. It's just that you're realizing that the heart or the talking or the feeling couldn't be there without that. No, it just couldn't. So we're starting from a vantage, a false vantage point to be on. When would you start from the me? What do you mean, a false vantage point? It's gone, it passed. If you're acting or reacting because of the ego or the it, instinctual drive, yes, it's a false vantage point.

It sets you up for your own delusion, ignorance and suffering. And perpetuates it. But that only needs to go on until you clearly see when you investigate that there's no ego. The ego is insubstantial. If you see that there's no me or no ego now, when could there ever have been one? Well, that's when I meant by the false. There never ever would be one. All the activities that have taken place in your life, the drugs, the traumas, the guilt, the shame and whatever's gone on there, there's never been done by a separate entity because it's non-existent. It's just the way the functioning's expressing as and through that particular pattern.

And it's taken you where it's taken you, turned you around to look at this stuff, think it's going to desert you now, forget about the me. The me will take care of itself. And it's even doing this me thing as well. Deeds are done, but there's no doer. Right. And even the sense of contraction or frustration or search, it's a neutral aspect of... It's just another... From that awareness, it's another play on consciousness. In saying that, you rejoice in it, no matter what it is. As a sense expressing it. As a sense of that really expressing us. That's very important because... So if you're feeling like you're frustrated or that you're contracted about your search, you can still have that and own it, but know that you're not...

know that you're not it and still have this... Even though it's a weird territory. Well, just like, you know, the actor puts on the grease paint and the dress and the mask and all, plays the role of a villain or a hero or whatever, but all the time he's playing. He knows that he's finally a player. He's acting. He's the actor. It's like that. All these things are happening. So my point is you might feel contracted, but in truth know that you're not. So that's a funny area where... Because there's freedom in the... not in the contraction itself, but there's a sense of freedom because you really know that you're really not that as you're going through it.

So I could really be doing some really bad things and just say, oh, it's just the game. Just try it and see. My point is you're not able to do that. It was not in your nature, you're right. I have a question. It's not necessarily a vital question, but you can answer it if you want to. I've never been with somebody knowingly that was with Narsagadana. Can you tell us anything that you might like to about what that was like? And also, second part of the question, are there any living teachers you have any maybe personality-based preferences or thoughts about that you might want to share?

But again, this is not vital. It's just my little curious mind. It's a good question. But if you feel so inclined. Or not. Not. Next question. When you're all done with your questions, I'd like to take a couple of minutes to show you that didn't happen to me, but how I came to sit in front of Narsagadana. And I'll tell it very quickly. We were around Muktananda and so forth, and I was actually going up to his ashram. Bob and I were split up in our marriage for 18 months, and he'd been in that ashram with Muktananda, but he'd found Narsagadana. And I was going out with some friends to Muktananda's ashram.

And I'd come to a certain understanding. I realized, I spent time with him, that I am God. Muktananda actually said, I'm God, you're God. And I could see everybody around him was saying, but you're a greater God. And something did impinge on me. And in a certain meditation, Muktananda actually, I saw a picture of it, he said to me, ha ha, you realize that I'm God and you're God. Same thing. But it really did not stay with me. But I had no choice. I'm afraid I've never been into all this mental stuff that you're carrying on with. I'm sorry you bore me. Because I know I am God.

I am being lived. So I went over to, and Bob came in to meet me at the airport. And he tentatively said to me, before you come out to Muktananda, will you come and see this guy in the sargadat? I said, okay. And in this little room, he sort of threw me back on myself. And I thought, oh yeah, that was nice. I was never going to see him again. But we had friends at the ashram that had come over before me. We were going to do a trip around India. So we all came in to do this. And we had a five week trip.

They got sick, went back to Australia, left Bob and me together. And for five weeks instead, something, I don't know what, just something made me say, I don't want to do that trip. I want to go and sit with an asargadatta. And just sitting in front of him, nothing happened. But it was just, oh yeah. But I was put there. You know, I wouldn't have chosen to go there. I didn't think I made a choice. But for some reason, something drew me. So I just, from my livingness now, I get on with the livingness. You don't have to divide it up into this or that.

You recognize you're being lived. And things that you think you wouldn't do, you find happening. And I can only say it's a happening. So what I'm trying to say is, don't try so much with the mind. Let go and sit back. And let the happening happen. You don't stop living. You just don't stop living. It goes on. You appear to make choices. And maybe that choice seems to be changed. But when I hear all the mental tearing apart, this is this, this is that, whatever. It just, you know, you don't need it. I'm sorry if I've bored you. Sorry to say you've bored me, but you know.

I've heard all this ripping apart on the so-called mental level before, and it's not to do with that. Okay? Sorry. My feeling is that there's value, like I said. I feel like there's value in this. This depends on whether, I'm Mr. Hard here. It depends on whether, if you're contracting in your inquiry, then your inquiry will close you down through mental capacity. But if there's an earnest inquiry to open up, and you're surrendering as you're speaking, then you could integrate that understanding within the openness, just know how to open up. But sometimes the mind needs to hear things in a certain way in order for the heart to open.

Yeah, well, it resonates in the heart, and then it's translated by the mind. Innately, you already know it. You've always known it. As I say, it's that natural state. It's seemingly clouded over when we start reasoning, with the acquired mind, the learned state. But it's still functioning. It's always functioning. And it's good to hear this, you can say, Mr. Stott, not to be over-resonated. It's way to be recognized again. And in the recognition of it, it's a realization that that's what it's always been. And it opens up, as you know. Bosch, you got some questions? You got the good questions. One of the things that I noticed that is so interesting is the idea that I was always saying, well, I understand, that I am the presence, awareness, and that there is no me, that the me is a reference point, that it's an illusion.

I realize it, but I realize it intellectually, I would say. And then I would read Nisargadatta, who was saying there's a conviction, a courage to live that. So you don't say, I know that the blue water isn't blue, but I know it intellectually. You just say, I know it. I know the water, I know the water is not blue, even though it looks blue. And there's a courage, I think, that does or doesn't take place to finally say, I know the me is not real. Rather than to say, I know it's not real, but I know it's not real, but I only know it in the mind.

You know it, you know it. At least that's how I see it. Well, we were saying it's kind of a big loss, because that's all we've ever thought we were. That's right. It's a huge loss, because what you have is this big picture of what it's going to look like when you finally know that the me is fake. You're going to have all heaven breaking loose. Instead, all you have is nothing. James, I just want to react to that. That's really why I'm here. It's not to get more information or whatever, but for encouragement, for inspiration, for courage to go. And there's no stage, but I meant the stage quote that I find that valuable.

It's about inspiration. Something just to be among people who, or wherever they are, that's where I am. Really, rather than to find the answer to some special, particular dispensation that... Well, I can tell you what's made it real for me is interacting with Bob, interacting with him, and making it real. Do you know that the me is fake? Do you know that? That's all that you need to know, is that that's fake. Now, that doesn't mean that when somebody says, oh, you got an ugly nose, it doesn't mean you're not going to go ouch. You're going to go ouch, and you're going to go ouch from a reference point.

But after that ouch, whether it's two seconds or ten seconds, there's going to go a, wait, who is he talking about? He's talking about a fake me. And so, now this is something that in the last two weeks, Bob and I and others have talked about a lot. Well, so, it's... So, is there this thing where, you know, now it takes me a minute or two to realize it's not really me, and then later on it'll take ten seconds, and is there a deepening? No, there's no deepening. It is. It just is. There may be an appearance of a deepening, but it's just an appearance.

So, without the knowledge of what you said to be true, it's like if a person says, oh, like your hair or nose, I personally, maybe it's not quite true right now, but at least at one point could be on this two-week binge of self-recrimination, like, what was wrong with me? That's not who I am. I should have known that, that kind of thing, which is a very, you know, it's a psychological state. But to know that, you know, it's okay just to, you know, be out there for two seconds when somebody says you got a big nose, that's not a sign that, hey, you might as well start all over, like the person who eats the wrong thing when they're dieting on high.

That's encouraging, I think. To me, that's where I am. To hear you say that helps me, it's just sort of a pointer or a sign that this is where I need to be and this is what I need to hear.