Sailor Bob at James' Braha in Florida 2004 p2

and that essence that you are, nothing can touch that. Never has, never will be able to. Going back to that little child of his, you know, when I say what was there, and you realise it was that knowingness itself, has that ever been contaminated by it? Has that got any conditioning attached to it? Has anything got that? Or is your conditioning in the mind? You've got to remember it and recall it. That's how it's my conditioning. Now don't look for the highs or lows in the mind, because that's taking you away from it. Settle with that equanimity, that equanimous or equilibrium, whatever it is, or whatever you like to call it, and you'll see subtleties in that, you know, there's warmth in that.

If you like to call it light, there's love in that, and you'll leave. Yes, there's been a lot of peace with everyone, but nothing has changed. That is where the peace is, because you can never have peace of mind. People look for peace of mind, but they never get peace of mind, because the very nature of the mind is to move, to think, to divide. Peace is where the mind is not. That's why they call it the peace that passes all understanding. It can't be understood or grasped by a thought or mind. When there's no thought, it's peaceful. Peaceful. Yes, but no, it's like I'm walking, I feel like I'm walking on a tightrope, that I'm going to do, I am going to do something wrong, and it's gone.

I'll be awake, asleep again. But didn't we point out yesterday, that there, if you look for it, there is no idea that has any substance or independent nature. This image you've got about yourself is a substantial. There's something you can grasp and say, yes, this is what I am. Well, up to now, yes, I thought I could. Yeah, but in looking into it, can you find it and then grasp it all in? No. And now, has it got any independent nature? How many thoughts can you have if you're not, if that awareness or wakefulness is not there? If you're unconscious or asleep, how many thoughts can you have?

So, if it had any power, this image you've got about yourself, this me, or into, you know, you know, or was, you know, independent, it would be there on its own. But the whole teaching was about non-duality. There's not two things. And if you're not conscious or aware, you can't have anything. Where does that leave you? I can't believe I walked into this house and this has happened. Yeah, but what are you now? You're present? Yes. Is there presence of awareness? Or that knowing that you are, is that there? I can't label it, but something, yes. But you can't say, I'm not. No. And when are you saying it?

Making that statement? Right now, don't you? Any thought you have is always in, it's the actuality of the moment. Or any words you say, it's not a moment, you know, you can't say it a moment, you know, that's when you can't say it a moment, it is. Now, that sense of awareness, of presence, the nouns, the immediacy, is ever there. Awareness of presence. So that means, if it's ever there, there is a presence of that awareness. So presence of awareness, awareness of presence, aren't one and the same thing. It's different aspect. Can you escape it? No. You're in, full stop. Well, I still have ego thoughts, though.

Who? Okay. Thoughts hop into this expanse that... See, and when you say, I still have ego thoughts, you're referring it to that I, thought, which you're about to, the events and experiences, a mental picture, concepts. So, I still have ego thoughts. The I is a thought of self. So thought is having, believes it's having thoughts, and that's a conflict. And it wants to get rid of those thoughts, it doesn't like them, or it wants different thoughts. So that's the conflict. It's a mind, so-called mind, in conflict with the mind. You never get anywhere with that, except suffering. Because conflict is disease. So, I notice this thought coming up, and I just notice it.

There's awareness of thoughts coming, playing around for a while, and looking at those thoughts again, trying to find them. You see, is there a thought attached anywhere? What's it attached to? If it's fixated on, what's it attached to? Is it attached to anywhere, within any part of this body? Is it attached in the head? Or is it just attached to another thought? Conflict with another thought. I've got this thought. I don't want this thought. Is a cloud attached to the sky? Look for the answer in nature, because this is a natural state. No cloud is ever attached to the space, is it? If you have a look and see there's no thought, it's ever attached to that essence that you are.

Can you, I don't think it adds a whole hell of a lot, but can you say that this presence awareness expresses, you know, oscillates between a disease and a point? You know, I mean, it seems to be that it, you know, it seems to enjoy the experience, it seems to enjoy the expressing, you know, the thought being the point, you know. I don't think it adds a whole lot, but... The presence awareness doesn't... Doesn't express it. Doesn't express it. It's just there. It's all there is, because it's one without a second. It's only that. It's only that you must be there. The book says, I am that.

And the great Mahabhagat, the great mantra of the Word, is there without that. This is that, and that's there. That's full stop. Full stop. Okay, so the clouds that are appearing today, in this moment, which are... Can this be real? Is this going to last? Will they eventually subside? If in the investigation, you see the thought, it's got no substance or independent nature. So those thoughts are just patterns of energy appearing. They're so-called clouds. See, we'll take the... They call it space-like, and there's another metaphor for it. They liken it under space to try and point it out. Now, the sun is like... See, that's space-like, or cognizing emptiness.

That space is empty, but it has the capacity of knowing, intelligence. And that's just like the sun in the sky, that knowingness, because the light of the sun lights the world. Yet the sun itself can't know darkness, because the further out it shines, more darkness disperses before it. Nor can it know light, because it's got nothing to impair itself. It just is. It just shines of itself. It's self-shining. It's called self-aware or self-shining. So when you see the clouds, what causes the clouds? Habit. Habit. Habit. You're going over the line, but I'm using this metaphor. Using that metaphor. Nothing, because... Yes, the sun causes the clouds.

The sun evaporates the water. The sun evaporates the water, forms a cloud. So why did the sun make these clouds? The sun doesn't know anything about that. It just shines of itself. It's just the same as your awareness or pure intelligence. It's not concerned with any of that. The functioning of it, that intelligence energy, just that energy, shining of itself, vibrates into patterns of thoughts, feelings and emotions. Just like the sun forms clouds. And the sun will blow the cloud away. Like it'll warm the air or stir the wind or something, or it'll cool it down where a cloud comes down in rain. So the cloud's not all bad in the functioning of the patterns there.

But it's not the sun. No, the sun causes it. The sun is not moving or doing a thing. It's not even that intelligent. It's all appearing in the light, all that self-shining of the sun. That self-shining, that knowing that you are, all this manifestation is going on. That essence that you are is untouched, uncontaminated. It's not unborn, never born, never dying. Are there doubts? No. The cloud is the cloud of shock. Good. Knowing it's a cloud, this is the beauty of it. Knowing it's a cloud, understanding it, that shock's not going to disturb it. Right. And no energy of belief going into it anymore. It can't stay there because a thing can't live without energy.

Afree? The cloud says amazing. Amazing. Any question I would have, though, would be a cloud. Yes. Would be what? A cloud. Exactly. Yeah. Even when you ask her, is that freeing, you're asking now for a translation of, are you aware? Are you aware that you're aware? And then you translate and say, yes, I have the thought that I am aware. That's basically all you're doing. You're translating that reality. And then you say there's just another cloud? There's just another cloud. That's the thing, there's a sense of, I know when I first, when I first heard this knowledge, like clouds take on some sort of negative connotation, like they're bad, they're supposed, you know, they represent something that's bad, where in fact they're not.

They're the creation of the sun as well. They're not the sun, but they are somehow or other the manifestation of the sun's energy. They're airing that, that's right. They're airing this thing. Trying to get rid of the mind, there's something to worry about. But the mind's not the enemy. It's not the enemy at all. It's a wonderfully creative instrument when it's utilized. On the other end of the scale, it tells us we're no good, we've got no self-esteem, and this becomes self-destructive. It puts the boundaries and limitations on us. It's all play-off. From the perspective of the natural state, there is no preference of the human awareness, awareness over a dog's awareness of the natural state, which it quite naturally is as well.

There's no preferences about that. I think that's a major concept to give up, to become aware that Toad, Judeo, Christi... Can you repeat that part again, please? Well, the idea that humans are the top of the hierarchy, and we've achieved it all. But in conversations with Bob and James and Carrie over the past couple of days, I've had the thought, well, there isn't any preference, there isn't any hierarchy. The dog is living spontaneously, quite naturally. There isn't any of this, all this mind stuff. Not that that's bad, but it's certainly no worse. It's no worse for its life. Everything's spontaneous. It's living that reality every bit of the time.

It's not going to change as much as we are. And we are thinking, because of that Judeo-Christian thing that we grow up in, that we are the supreme final achievement of God, and we have this special closeness with Him and all that stuff. I mean, that stuff, that's one of the clouds that has us holding all the other clouds together and attached to us and not letting... The reference point. Yeah, the reference point. I told Martin... I mentioned to Martin about that when you wipe out your face, you wipe out about a million microbes from their perspective. And he said, yeah, but we're the highest evolutions.

So that doesn't cut any ice. I love the... Wait. I love the idea that... Or the reality that in most cases, a well-cared-for domestic pet is happier than its owner. Because when you think about it, you know, what's the list that a dog needs to be happy? Nice roof over its head, food, loving family. That's the list. What's our list? Relationship. It never stops. Our list never stops. Money. All the things the dog has. And then the list begins, you know. But as I say, getting back to what you were saying about, you know, in the scheme of things, where we're right, like if you get out there 15 million light years away, that was the reference point out there, look back where this earth would be less than a speck of dust.

Where would we be on that? We'd be like these microbes that crawl around our life. So it all depends on that. At least we know it would be right now, though, out there. Yes, it's right there. Couldn't be any other time. We didn't know that before. So you know something, do you? Yes, yes. There's some... There's definitely someone here knowing something. You say you're supposed to know nothing. Yeah, well, you know, Bob failed. I'm kidding. Make a note, Carrie was kidding about that. He actually has a very deep understanding and has been authorized to speak of this. Thou shalt go out and straighten the crooked.

That's what Bob said to me. See, you've got that round the wrong way. You'd have trouble straightening that bush. It's the crooked place of strength. It's the crooked place of strength. You can tie that up and tie it too. It might let me out of the country. It might. It might. It might. It might. Elf putting on a big tent feed you to the lozzies. So my intense political leanings at this time now, I'm just gonna be looking up into the thoughts. There'll be taking place in that awareness. You might see the body mind take it an active part. Yes. But that's the... Who's doing it?

Is there a you there that's doing it? OK. That's the way the functioning acts. Yeah. But it seems that I am then making a choice as to who I would support. Yes. Choices will still be made. Preferences will be held. Reference points will come up. All these things will be happening, but there's no entity that they could ever be happening to. We've only believed that the entity was there if we attributed the choice I chose. Can that I, has it got any power to choose at all? I'll show you. You're seeing right now. You're hearing right now. Does your eye say, do I see? Your eye.

Right, yeah. Does your ear say, I hear? But the thought comes up, translating, I see the camera, I see the light. And the thought comes up, I'm hearing the fan, and the air conditioning, or whatever, this voice, or whatever. Then if you ask yourself, Can that be the only thing that I can do? Can that thought, I see, can that see? Right, yeah. Can the thought I hear, hear? Can the thought I choose, choose? No. Can the thought I think, is that thinking? Thought that we're unaware, is that the awareness? So, the thought has no power whatsoever. It wouldn't even be there without that awareness.

So, that's the first step completely. I'm powerless, unmanageable, as an entity. Totally. Totally powerless. Not over alcohol, but always and ever being totally powerless and unmanageable, as an entity. Because the entity is a fiction. Life has gone on. You've been lived, you've been lived, as a pack of energy. You are the livingness itself. So, as I said, clouds will have less power, as I start saying, oh, that's a cloud, that's just a cloud. So, my... Recognizing it, yeah. Right. So, my intensity to do something about another cloud, that's... It may be there, it may not be there. It won't, you won't have any say in that.

Ah, okay. Just the same as you had no say, no really, as an entity. You know? If it's something that comes up, just, like nature takes care of it. Nature takes care of it. People cut down trees, and what do they do? The greetings arrive, and to go against them, you know. Things are happening in Iraq, something will have to counteract whatever it is, you know, it goes on. Civilizations rise, play around for a while, and then the nature is to go down. And talking about that clear in places, again, look at that, to match a picture, whatever it was in Peru. It was a thriving civilization.

There'd be lots of land cleared around everyone's nose. Forgotten for thousands of years. Nature just gradually grew over it again. The trees were replaced. A jungle was there, you know. And other civilizations rose, played around. British Empire was the last civilization. It's declining now, a bit of an event. It's the US that's taking power or not, but the eastern ones are gradually gaining in strength. They'll take their turn. It all naturally. Smutty grows, reaches its center. Integration finishes. Disintegration starts. It starts to fall apart. Energy turns around the other way. That disintegration. Enzymes and microbes and everything will start to eat it up. Life continually lives on life.

It doesn't make it. And those enzymes get it, the maggots or the worms, whatever it is. And what's left finishes in the earth. There's a seed in the earth. It'll grow in that earth. Something will eat the seed. Or the plant when it comes up. Something will eat the thing that eats the plant. That's where you came from. The essence of the food of your father, the essence of the food of your mother. You never had any beginning. How the hell could you have an end? Just expressions and patterns of this intelligence energy. But nothing can ever be added to that intelligence energy. Nothing can be taken away.

It is perfection itself. The rest is all appearance. I wanted to say, I have to think about this. You won't find the answer in the moment. No. For me, I think that I can certainly see how someone's nature could be, you know, could bring out, you know, that interest in politics. But it seems as if, you know, at least from here, the deep understanding that the pairs of opposites are integral to each other. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to understand. You know, that they really are one and the same thing. You cannot have evil without good. They define each other. You know, they're the same, different ends of the same stick.

And you can't have a one-ended stick. You know, so then, you know, where is the railing against evil in a sense? You know, it's like you lose that steam, you know, to say, oh, that shouldn't be. We can eliminate that. You know, you can't eliminate it. Right. You can't eliminate it. You can't eliminate it. Yeah. So, for me, that kind of took the steam out of my strong, you know, it took a lot of decibels out of the strength of my feelings about just about anything. At the same time, though, there's a, I mean, the fun of being, a lot of the fun of being here is to fix the problems, to cure polio, to cure this, to get rid of the evil empire.

It's just fun. It's not anything significant. Yeah, I think it just, that's why I said it's what's happening here, you know, but someone else's nature could be that they still participate in politics. Right. They still participate in that, even though they have that understanding that it's all bullshit, you know, but they still go through their, you know, they still go through the motions of it. In Australia, we have compulsory voting, which you don't have. Compulsory voting? Oh, yeah. Really? Wow. And this is what I say. That's under my opinion. I think they should have it here, too, and maybe you might get some results. But that wasn't the point that I was bringing up.

What a great idea. I'm not sure you really need to think about that. But what I'm saying is we still go and vote, you know? You still go on with the livingness. You don't become, you know, oh, again, I keep bringing this up all the time, but I think it's a perfect example of the guy who was speaking to Bob from a phone box. And he said, well, if that's the case, I won't do anything. So Bob said, try staying in the phone box for the rest of your life. You see, you just have to do it. And he said, well, I'm not going to do anything.

I'm going to do it. And he said, well, I'm going to do it. And he said, well, I'm going to do it. And he said, well, I'm going to do it. And you see, you just have to do it for what it is, and you're not taking in. Yeah, it's a question of intensity that goes on. It's just does it, you know, does it give you the knots and the, and the got and the it's a question of intensity. It can be anything that you've been given. Does it give you the feeling that you're not going to do anything. It's a question of, oh, this is what you knew about this.

It makes you feel like, oh, you're going to do this thing, which you know, it's over, it's going to be like, no, I'm going to do it. It can be like that. It can be that. I mean, it can be like that. You know, it depends on how you think about it. Can you see it in the video or not. of your life. You see, you just, it just goes on, but you see it for what it is and you're not taken in by it. Yeah, it's a question of intensity. It goes on. It's just, does it, you know, does it give you the knots and the gut and the, you know, and the anger and all of that stuff.

And sometimes it's almost fun just sitting back and watching the happening happening. Like, the stories between, that we could tell, I'm sure, everybody else, but like things were, wow, it was like drama, drama, drama perhaps. And they're going along and they've got it. You know, practically got it. All of a sudden they all, psst, turn to one side. They just turned away and left it. Down this little deer, which, you know, you try not to get caught up and you're looking at it because you know it's the happening anyway and it's the livingness, but for sure that little deer was gone because that whole pack.

Yes. Just suddenly they stopped when they're almost on it. Just, yeah. Another one, another one was a little wildebeest calf, you know. They're crossing the river and they cross the Mara River. There's a million crocodiles in there and they just, well, he got through all the crocodiles and a snap, one snapped at him and he ran across the back of another one and got up the bank. And got up on the other bank there and lost, lost his nutter. So he's bellowing around the herd and moved on. So he turns around and ducks back across the river again. Gets through that and gets on the other side.

And the hyena starts chasing him. Oh my God. And he chases him so and so. And he turns, turns around and gets to the river again and turns back and goes across the river again. Survives, you know. Gets up on the other bank and the chap said, well, you know, if he's big enough now to be able to exist without his mother, to live without his mother, all he needs to do is catch up with the herd again and he'll be right. It was amazing. Yeah. Wasn't his time. And you see, always in nature too, you see, you'll see a lion chase a pack of little deer or something like that, whatever they are, whatever they call them, a little, and catch one, you know.

All the herd will take off. And within 50 feet or so, they've all dropped their heads again and got on with living. If it had been us and the lion started chasing, we'd be running for the rest of the day, looking over here, Christ, where is he? Oh, that was close. And we'd be concerned. All his head stuff would go on. And we'd be ignoring getting on with life like, hey, they're eating. That's their livingness, you know. They're happy that something's fed the lion, so they've forgotten all about it and got on with living. I'll tell you a story. I was a cockroach in the house and usually I'd, you know, I'd pray for them and then I'd kill them.

And so there's one particular... I don't know. There's one particular cockroach I captured and I threw it outside on the patio. You took a prisoner, right? I took a prisoner. I didn't interrogate it with the Geneva Convention and I released it out on the patio. And the second I threw it out on the patio, one of the lizard chameleons came up. He's gone. Well, the chameleon would be happy. It would be good for the chameleon. You bastard. A cruel death. So, you know, what was... It saved you doing another job. Right. It wasn't your turn to do it. Right. That was nature. You know, you participated in the natural functioning, feeding that lizard.

Yeah. Through you. It's not even in the end. I think millions of big ones there. Some big ones come on and you find yourself giving to them. The next one, ah, get out of the way. They don't come near me, sort of thing. Why? There's some that... You know, crimes or something like that. You know, crimes or something. You couldn't help it. And others you just... So, I have a question off the subject here. Yesterday I had two events I experienced yesterday. One of them was I was told something by another teacher at school about something that I said to another student that upset the student.

Now, what I said should have not upset the student. I'm not going to get into the particulars on it. And so, it was the perspective of the student what I said that she took offense to it. And it was my perspective that I said something that, you know, shouldn't have been, you know, taken that way. So, I got upset about it. But the plus... I didn't get upset about the student. I got upset about the way the teacher approached me about it. And so, I was, you know, upset about it. And I was upset about it for a couple of hours. Then, you know, and here was my mind constantly grasping at this.

You know, this upsetness. And then, I had a teacher at another class and something happened in that class with one of the... Another student that was upset where I was teaching about energy work and the, you know, the concept of angels and all that stuff came up. And, you know, I, you know, was... I put the Advaita twist into it. And, of course, the student got really upset. But it wasn't about what I was talking about. It was about... The student was upset about something about another student, about his remarks. And he didn't want this student to touch him or... That doesn't matter. So, the student tells me later on after the end of the class, I saw he was upset.

I said, well, what was going on? And he said, well, you know, I talked to the owner of the school about this class because I really didn't want to come because I really... Because of my religious background, my social upbringing, I didn't want to be involved with this hands-on healing work. And so, I... So, I... So, right away, boy, I got really upset at the owner of the school. Why couldn't he knew about this? Why couldn't he call me up and tell me what was going on with the student so I could have tailored the class in a way where the student wouldn't have been affected by it and everything really would have ran a lot smoother?

Because the student's fear actually came true in the class that we was trying... That he went to the teacher, went to the owner to avoid. So, here it was. I was upset about this one thing. Then this new thing comes up and, you know, I'm totally... It's totally disconnected and now I'm focused on this new upsetness. So, last night I go home and I did what you had said. You know, we talked about, okay, where did that upsetness come from? You know, that emotion. And I tracked it back basically to the thought. And then that thought actually I traced it back to my social upbringing, to something in the past based upon my perspective.

As growing up, why that upset me. So, then I brought to the talk what we were talking about, about personality. I said, you know, what goes on with the personality after, you know, we reach this awareness part and we talked about the personality is still kind of there. It's that... Because it's the thoughts that keep coming that is the underlying part of the personality. And I was reading this last night and I wanted you to see if you could... Just explain a little bit of this to me. The question was, your personality must have a cause. And then Nisargadatta says, how does personality come into being?

By memory. By identifying the present with the past and projecting it into the future. Think of yourself as momentary. Without past and future, your personality dissolves. So, I was under the... You know... I was under the impression that the personality really is always kind of... That underlying is always there. Those thoughts, you know, come and then they go. Which is the underlying part of the personality. And here he's saying that the personality dissolves. I really... It's kind of like... It was a little contradictory for my thinking. Well, if you're doing what he's saying, it's momentary. Right. What past or future is there with that? It's just as it is again, isn't it?

As it is right now. Unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. And then that might seem to take the pattern of the personality, isn't it? But that'll only be momentary, too. Hmm. He's saying in the moment, the personality dissolves. Oh, okay. But that's in the moment. You're not going to live that moment forever. You're going to start having thoughts again. Right. As soon as the thoughts arise, the personality's back. Okay. As I understand it. And I can have a joke with you, because I think your background isn't as Italian. There was somewhere I heard about... The yelling may be there, and maybe it's related to your being Italian. Maybe it isn't.

But if you're not labeling it, there is no personality happening. What happened? Did the upset disappear? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was actually laughing about it today, because the director called me up. I mean, you know, I was just like... You know, she was like saying, you know... What's so funny about it? I'm like... You know... So you got in touch with the... Well, they got in touch with you. Yeah, they got in touch with me, yeah. Well, I left a note last night, and they got in touch with me. Yeah, well, that's right. So you did something about it, you... Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

You felt moved to do something about it. That's the result. So... I'm very annoyed. Yes, when it comes up, you're moved to do it. You do it, like, instead of brooding over it and suppressing it. But that could happen also, you know, because you're not going to do it. Right. I've taken inspiration from that. I've taken inspiration from that. I've taken inspiration at times when there's been a contraction of something that I think I heard on one of your tapes, you know, like, you ask someone, where are all the thoughts from yesterday and the day before? You know, I mean, which is... just kind of makes you...

gives you a stronger sense that they... all the thoughts in the past have ultimately passed away like clouds, whether they've hung on for a short time or a little longer time. They all... They've all passed away. If the cloud one doesn't fit, get the idea of sky writing, a plane in the sky writes a message in the sky, how long does that message stay there? Unless it's dropping an A-bomb, then it has a little longer shelf life, you know. What was the name of the plane? The Enola Gay? Yeah, unless it has Enola Gay painted on the side. You had to mess up his metaphor, didn't you?

That'd make it more difficult for us to get it right. No, I... no, he was talking about sky writing, so it didn't mess it up at all. It wasn't his mess up metaphor, he doesn't know it. There's no attachment to it. Who have you been to? Emmet's moving, isn't there? Are you staying for another week? No, no, no, no, I'm going back for... That propel... I have to integrate now. I have to integrate what? I have a couple of things to do. I have to integrate what? I have a couple of weeks to, you know, integrate all of this, and then Bob's coming up again to plug me back into the wall.

Now, I have a question. Your intensity at that point, which you said is due to your background, you recognize that. Mm-hmm. Through that recognition, then, is it less apt to happen again? Yes. You're putting a lot of the catch up a lot quicker, you know. Yeah. Or recognition, or re-cognizing, or re-minding. But if I think it's fun, like my intensity, if my intensity about things, if I'm amused by it, then it wouldn't really, it doesn't matter, right? I just see it as a game. Exactly. I mean, what you're saying, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It's not concrete. It's not sticking there. It's fun. See the joke?

Yeah. I just find it makes the livingness so much easier. You think somebody calls you all sorts of names, as if they've thrown filth over you, and the energy that goes in to getting it off, how dare they? It just takes so much energy. But once you recognize this, then you can let it go. That's what I like about it, you know, just not taking the energy. Right. And the worry is maybe about something, not that, but, you know, projecting something into the future even. You can worry, worry, worry for months, but about something that never happens, you know? But it doesn't mean to say that you stop living either.

Right. If you move to do something about a situation, you'll do it. But you let it go, you know, you don't project. I kind of have felt at times that it isn't my anger. I mean, it isn't, you know, I mean, it's part of the, it's an arising, you know, as an aspect of totality, rising in this mind-body organism, but it doesn't have anything to do necessarily with me. It may have, you know, I mean, there's another person frequently involved. For me, a classic case in point is I was out with my wife and my young son, and I am historically the nicest person a waiter will ever meet.

You guys have seen them, you know, complimenting them, and, you know, well, this waitress, young waitress, she must have been like 19 years old. She's waiting on us, you know, and I don't even remember what she did. I launched into her, you know? And my, as soon as she left, my, you know, Laurie and my son were like, they said, damn, shock. I mean, what happened? I said, I don't know, you know, must have been, you know, and my thought was, you know, she had as much as I could think of. Right. Right. And I didn't have as much, you know, I guess, who's to say whether it was, you know, owing to something happening with me that I should question or something that was destined to happen to her that day at Long Island, you know, that I was.

Don't bring that news to me. I had to do it, Bob. You know, that I was there to, you know. I just got a double tip from you. That I was there to deliver, you know. I mean, you know, I mean, it's like, I don't think you can even sometimes separate it out. It's just what happened. So I didn't feel, I kind of laughed. I said, it was strange. It was very strange. But I didn't have any sense that anything, you know, was, you know, was wrong or inappropriate. It was just something that happened. Rah-ha, Sybes. Pretty quiet as well? I'm not taking delivery of anything today.

You've lost your reference point. Have I lost my reference point? No, I'm sure it comes up all the time. Do you ever have one? The imagined reference point comes up for sure. That's better. Well, and Kerry said, I didn't know that I, whether I did something wrong in yelling at her. I said, which I would have done something wrong? Yeah. Well, no, what I was saying is, it didn't occur to me that it had anything to do with me. Right. It was something I witnessed. And in the witnessing of it, it was okay just as it was. Right. I didn't need to understand why I did it.

You know, I mean, I might have done it. But my imagination, because I was so unattached to it, you know, went toward her. You know, what was happening in her life that that's what came out of me spontaneously. Right. Speaking of politics, Ann, there was a friend who came to visit us, and she's feminist and very political and very opinionated, very bright also. And so I started talking at VEDA to her. And I was explaining that there's no blame or there's no guilt anywhere because there is no person. It's all an imagined I. I was doing fine. She was really getting into it at VEDA.

And then I mentioned, don't have to even blame George Bush. It's not even the guy. It's not him doing it. It's a test for me, isn't it? It's not him doing it. The thoughts are popping into his mind. He's acting on him. He's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. That was the end of the at VEDA talk. Couldn't handle that. Everyone's got their limits for God's sake. And I thought that was… Everybody, most people do. For my wife, it's child abusers. I could talk to her for an hour. But if I use a child abuser as an example of someone who's not a doer and responsible for what he's doing, that's it.

That's it. Also, when she's talking about doing something politically and then you're saying, well, you know, I know you don't particularly feel much about politics. This stuff is going on, good stuff and bad stuff. And, you know, it's just happenings. But if you see somebody outside getting mauled by someone, you're very likely to jump in and help them. I will. Maybe I will and maybe I won't. Right? If you see one of your family members yelling at another one, you may jump in and help them. There's no difference between that and jumping into the political arena. It's the same thing. I think you're right. It's owing to your nature.

Right. But in both cases, I think with the understanding, the jumping happens, you know, but it isn't, you know, it doesn't totally grip. You know, I get taken as seriously as it seems. What if it does? What's the problem if it does? Well, that's fine too. There's no problem. Sometimes things grip. Yeah. They grip. Big deal. I mean, you know, you're getting eaten by a lion, it starts to grip. I mean, things grip, they don't grip. Either way, it's, you know. But it could be me saying, oh, that's my need to make somebody bad. I mean, I, like, just somebody. Yeah, so that's your conditioning.

It comes up. You see it and you say, oh, boy. So those are your personality traits. Those are the thoughts that are coming up. And next moment, you remember, oh, those are my thoughts. I mean, they're not my thoughts. Those are thoughts coming up. They're not even you. In other words, if you're looking for a prescription from Advaita, it's not a great idea because you're going to have limits. You're going to say, well, everything will be okay unless I get gripped or unless I have a bad experience or unless it gets really bad. I mean, everybody's going to reach some point where there's going to be some huge problem.

And so if the knowledge is real, no matter how small the problem is or how big the problem is, suddenly there has to be a, wait a minute, who's having the problem? That's what I was really trying to say. But not looking at it like a prescription. If you're looking at this as a prescription, you're screwed. Yes. It's got to be, because you've got to allow for anything and everything. In other words, anything. In other words, anything can happen because of duality, because of creation. It is duality. Anything is possible. Somebody could come in here with a machine gun and shoot, you know, anything is possible.

Not us. Not us, of course. Not us. No, it could, Gene Jaluski just walked by, so it could happen. Who's Gene Jaluski? He's a neighborhood guy who walks around the neighborhood in an AK-47. Oh, thanks. He's just kidding. It's an imaginary AK-47. Go ahead. I'm sorry, Jim. No. It's just, otherwise you're susceptible to the, oh God, I didn't get it, syndrome. I was doing well for a week. I felt good for a week. You're looking to feel good. Why would you be looking to feel good? The whole thing of feeling good and feeling fine and feeling happy, you can only feel that because there's also feeling sad.

There has to be room for everything. There has to be. If you're coming here to feel good or to get a prescription to feel good, forget it. The whole, you can't feel good unless you're also going to feel bad at some point. It could be really fucking bad. That's okay. As long as when you feel really fucking bad, at some point something comes up and you go, wait a minute, who's feeling bad? Or I'm feeling bad? All right, I'm going to feel bad. Just feel bad. Be bad until it dissipates. So you could be lost in it for a while. Yeah. What's wrong with getting lost in it?

Okay. All right. Oh, no, that's found. In the creation, in the creation, we're all here getting lost. Yes. And then some people are finding it, finding answers. Some people are getting lost. Some people are getting lost and finding. And it just, you know, it goes on. But anything is possible. It's not, that's my diatribe because Bob was looking at me. That was very good. No, it was so good. Yes, thank you. I needed it. I needed that. It was holding back. And I didn't even know I was holding back. Except now we've got to edit it. But I can't. I kept seeing Bob staring at me.

And I said, oh, God, he's going to ask me to say something. So I better. Before he asks me, because if he asks me, then I'm on the spot. Then I feel it. So I'll say it before he does. So now we've got to edit the tape because you did Robert DeNiro and analyzed this. You said the F word like four times on the tape. Frankie. No, that's going to stay. That makes the tape. That makes the tape. You couldn't get the idea. These are Americans here. But you see, that's interesting. I'm just so absorbed in what you were saying. And I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really, really, I really, I really, I really, I really, I really don't like that effort.

I just say, look, there are better adjectives. And I didn't notice you say, one. And then you see this? That's it. Right. You were saying. And now it's another boundary. The F Grammar system of the boundaries. All these boundaries. Yes, but it's interesting. Right? Notice it. When you set it. But it did not listen about the things I was listening to the substance. Not the rules, that's in some of them. No. Change. Change. So when I'm planning... Plans will be made. Plans will be made. There's no plan maker. Um, okay. Alright. Now that's the good thing though. Do all the planning that you like but don't set any store in it.

See? You do what you're made to have to do to be made to have... We had to come over here and all the legalities and all the stuff we had to do was almost worse than the trip. But you know that you just have to do it. And you go ahead and do it. But, um, like I'm a Bowen therapist and I have appointments during the day. And people will ring up and say, I'm terribly sorry I had to change that appointment. That's okay. What would be the point of a word in my mind that's not going to alter the situation? So it's made the living so much easier for me.

I just say, okay, we'll make another one. And think to myself, wow, I could do something else in that time. But I mean, that's not appeasing myself. What I'm saying, just make your plans fun, accept if they're changed. And sometimes they might even be changed for the better. Right. Or a carrot better. Hmm. That's where it makes it so much easier. Yes, so not too much. I don't think you're taking anything personally. Yes, yes. Like, oh, they changed. Don't they think my time's valuable? All that nonsense. Watch it now. If she's sitting in that chair, you'll have to give the next verse. So if we got George Bush in here.

Pardon? If we got George Bush in here and he sat next to you, well, could he wake up? Bob loves him. What's wrong with him? He loves him. He hopes he gets in, so just be careful. He's already that, whether he knows it or not. Yes, yes. That's the way it's expressing through that pattern called George Bush. Okay, all right. Ooh. He's just another vibration. Yeah. Intensive. Just another cockroach. Not an important chameleon you're around. Yes. Throw him out to the chameleon. You see how you let a word affect you, too? Because every time you say George Bush, you . It's just a word. I'm laughing.

You haven't even got it here in front of you. Right. I get the impression you don't like him very much. Well, I don't like, it's not him. I mean, he's just like a puppet. It's just that I don't like the direction things are going in. I guess the cloud doesn't like the direction, right? Well, from the point of reference you're taking, it doesn't look good. Yes, that's right. Your reference point. Right. Because there's a whole bunch of people at a convention in Boston that would agree with you they share their reference point. So, yes. And that not liking might move you in something, you know, whatever, to oppose.

Or do something about it. It might not. Become a politician. But that pendulum is going to, I mean, like stock market, you know, there's a bull market, then there's a bear market. There's a good and a bad. So, you know, George Bush is here, then, you know, he leaves and then it's, you know, then it's something else. Or it's Bill Clinton and it goes to George Bush. Yeah. And so it's civilizations come up and, as Bob says, civilizations come up. Or gone. And you hurt by whatever happened. The mind. Yes, that's what I'm saying. The you. Has been. When you see there isn't one, how can.

Right. Because you are being lived and whatever's going around you is the livingness too. So a child's striving. So you do what you have to do, but just accept the way things are, you know. There's nothing you can do about it if he gets it. Yeah. And you don't know what he's there until another election. And do you vote? Oh yes. You do. That word acceptance can be a trap too because it means someone to accept it. Oh yes. Or reject it. But no. But it's just what is. It's just as it, un-is. What is means unordered, unmodified, uncorrected. So in that there is no acceptance, no rejection, no attachment or detachment.

It comes up I need to accept this, that's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. And it's not a test. It comes up I need to accept this, that's just what it is also. No, no acceptance, no rejection to that. It gives everything free to move on. But it means when I accept this, you back it. Or I don't like this, you know, you back it. It's a resistance. It's a resistance to what is. And the resistance, it's one foot resisting another foot, that's the blockage.

And that energy needs to flow. Any blockage of energy. and this thing is disease, conflict. So that expression of before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment, same thing, expresses that truth and reality, except that you do notice that the way you chop wood and carry water seems to change somewhat. Something changes. There's something terrible. Before enlightenment, carrying wood, cutting water is me, and I've got to get this wood and carry the water, and it's not my turn, it was J. Bloggs' turn, he should have done it. And it's a hard job and I've got to do it all. All that rigmarole goes on around it, afterwards, it just gets done.

It's just happening. No one taking delivery, no one concerned with it. It gets done or it doesn't get done. Not all that. Mental mentation going on around it. Right, not all that mentation about it, you don't necessarily get so angry about the job anymore, so it's just being done, you're still doing this activity, just not getting all upset about it anymore. Bob, you had talked once about how the five senses assume their proper place. Can you speak up, Leslie? You were talking to me once about the five senses and how when you get out of their way, they can assume their proper place, all of the senses can function more equally and fully.

Yeah. And so if you're chopping wood and carrying water, with all of your five senses equally functioning, then it also seems like you're... that... the chopping of the wood would be a different kind of experience. That it would be richer, or you might notice things about it that you didn't use to. And it would be so effortlessly done. Because all the energy would be with that. Your attention wouldn't be on, why do I have to do this, or I do this every day, or whatever. Your attention might be on how the light hits the wood, or... It would be on the overall thing. Instead of...

It would be a... Yeah. Equal attention in every segment of those senses, you know. See, like I do a wheel, it's got spokes evenly all around. So the hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, are all got an even, equal, apportion or proportion to them, you know, or allotment, whatever it is. What we do is we knock the first half of the spokes out, and that goes into the thing. And that goes into the thinking, into the... The head stuff. It's always past, future, and what's going on. And the hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, are still going on, but they're still happening spontaneously and effortlessly. But there's not...

All the notice, all the focus is in that part. Right. And that's where the problems are. But imagine if they're all equal, and the thinking was just as equal as the rest of them. There can never be a problem. So do... Because, you know, you're seeing from touch, what would seem a problem, just looking like looking through a keyhole. What you can see if you look through a keyhole. You can't see too much. Because all this other stuff going on. But, you know, if you... Not only the door, the keyhole out, the door out, and the wall out. You're seeing things totally. And what's the problem then, when you've got that opportunity to see things like that, might not be a problem when you've seen it all over.

You can only see a narrow aspect of it. And so your... Your emotions wouldn't get into it either. You wouldn't be tossed around by, Oh, wow, I feel good chopping wood today. I hope I feel good like this tomorrow. You wouldn't have that kind of good either. Just as it is in the moment. If it's good, it's good. But tomorrow, take care of it, so. Because, you know, you're still with the hearing, seeing, touching, and smelling. You haven't gone into the thinking part, anticipating and imagining a future. Or, going back into memory, recalling memory. And that's... All that energy is being utilized there. The energy is overall.

And so there's a Buddhist saying, you know, Be utterly awake. It means utterly awake, with the five senses wide open. You know, open them all up to the five... Not the one sense, the thinking, but the five senses wide open. And then it says be utterly open, with unfixated awareness. Well, you're not fixating in this sort of thing. You're still... It's not fixated on one thing. It's open too. No fixation. Would you say that the kind of attention would be more like, if a child were chopping the wood? That the kind of unfixated awareness that a child would use? That a child has? Yeah. Yes.

It'd be more like that. Yes. A little child, you know, is in a natural state. Until it starts to reason. Until it starts to reason. It brings that sense of separation. It probably brings that dualism. And that primary dualism, me and the other, every dual... Every ism arises from that. Capitalism, communism, Catholicism, Protestantism, idealism, atheism, a whole lot arises from that primary me and the other. The whole division comes from that. No me, no other. Just what is. Vashti's not... Vashti is rarely in these meetings. She probably has a couple questions. One about what is the point. It's on tape. It's already on tape? Well, yeah.

No, not what is the point. The question that came up. But I like that what is the point question. No, what she was... Well, it was actually in terms of preferences. You know, it's like... Yes. It was contained in that question that you asked about the... Okay. That the man chopping wood, though he's self-realized, all the senses are working equally, is he still working with purpose and motivation? Can he still work... I mean, he's going to deliver more wood because he has that goal in mind. He knows he's got to cut enough wood for winter or whatever, whereas a child's operating out of his fun of the moment, whatever it is.

Now, you did bring up the fact that this self-realized man can decide at some point, no, I don't need to chop wood or something appropriate to the moment. But winter's coming, so there are practical matters that need to be done. And that's appropriate to the moment. Is that... I mean, that's what I was hearing. It's a question of... So when you're self-realized, where do you draw motivation from kind of thing? You know, everything is so... It seems like you're just waiting for something to happen. Well, motivation is that natural functioning. Like I mentioned, you need to draw any motivation to breathe right now or to beat your heart.

Grab your hair and your fingernails, replace yourself. It's happening by itself. So what's wrong with it? What's wrong with extending into thought? Instead of... And that's all that happens. It extends or expresses into thought or translates into thought. We think there is... We've got that erroneous belief in the thinker or a doer. It seems that somebody or something that's got a say, some power or independent nature to be able to say it. It's all happening. Bob, I know you bring that point up about the fingernails. The fingernails just growing and all that stuff. It's a half a trillion impulses per second are going on in our body.

A half a trillion impulses per second are going on in our body. Really? No wonder I get tired. You know, neurologists, I read it in some neurologist's book. The whole intelligence energy thing. Each cell, there's millions of cells in our body that's formed by intelligence energy. Meanwhile, the Earth is spinning. But it really... So, in a sense, I also see... I don't know, but I've got a sort of feeling out of all that you were saying. Why bother to seek enlightenment? If you're going to be chopping wood before and after. If the happening's going to be happening anyway. So, I guess the supposed seeking or looking within, or whatever you like to call it, is the happening too.

So, some people will do it, some won't. Some think that they're going to get some relief from the chopping of the wood. But the others don't know that there is a relief, so it doesn't matter anyway. The whole thing is just... Yeah. We're just asking questions because we're here. Because we're here. Because we're here. Sort of, isn't it? Yeah. So, there's no offering of a better life because of this, is there? But from a mental point of view, as I said, I seem to find the living easier because I see the mental thoughts that are causing me distress. I'm happy to laugh. I never look at that and say, why am I laughing?

So, it's just... And you can laugh that much that the tears come to your eyes and you start crying. That's alright. That's alright. That's what I'm saying. You see? Some people are ashamed of crying and shedding tears. And they're like, I don't want to put a label on the same thing. Have a different label. Yeah. So, really, it's funny that we're even here discussing it, it seems, isn't it? And yet, the happening is happening. This is the happening. There's a difference for me, though. Well, I'm still in shock, I guess. The mind is saying it's in shock. Because I, through... I'm tense therapy for years and years.

I'm very good at like, ooh, thought. You know, catching thoughts and going... And judging them, of course. Or, yes, searching for whatever reason in my childhood this thought has just occurred. You know, instant therapy all the time. So, this is different. Very much so. But now, then, me coming up and... I've always felt like I'm catching most of my thoughts. But I was catching them. And so, it's... Today, it seems that the thoughts are coming up, but there's this whole... There's no energy. There's not any positive and negative thing. There's no judgment going on. Just what is. It seems that way, yes. You know, it reminds me of a great thing that this friend of mine told me.

Because when you were catching thoughts from the psychological standpoint, you had a reference point. And then another reference point came up. But you were still in the... You know, were you better off with two reference points or only one? I mean, who's to say, right? But when the understanding... You know, when this understanding sort of happens, it isn't like an additional reference point. You know, it's like that... You know, this friend of mine tells a story of... You know, his parents, he believed in Santa Claus. And one day he came down, you know, and he saw him putting presents under the tree. Well, that concept of Santa Claus that had all that energy in it, that belief, was annihilated.

But it wasn't replaced by another belief or a concept that he then had to remind himself of. There's no Santa Claus, there's no Santa Claus. Just that first concept was gone, left the absence of concept related to Santa Claus. You know? I think that's closer to what happens when, you know, when the thoughts there, the understanding happens. It's not that the thoughts are replaced with another concept. When else did they lie? Is that right, Bob? Yeah, I think you're pretty right there. Pretty right. Uh-oh. That was a B-minus, right? Yes. Who wants to know? I want to know that. One of my students there, yes.

Yeah, I tell you. The snideness of the guru. The snideness of the guru. Snideness is happening. Got more concepts. Labeling. Next time when he says, isn't that right, Bob said, no, it's wrong. He asked me if it's right. Yeah, there you go. Well, fortunately, he jests at scars that never had a person behind them. It isn't exactly what Shakespeare said. Although that's a pretty at-Vedic statement, isn't it? He jests at scars that never felt a wound. Yeah, that's very at-Vedic. Just as it is. I think for me, recently, that one of the stories I had that has apparently been playing with me is that when this realization would come, something spectacular would happen.

And I denied that I was thinking that way. But again, I was speaking to someone and I realized, I could see that, yes, something observably spectacular would occur. And that I would be able to read all your minds and, you know. And where have you picked up that concept from? What you're reading? Yes, yes. You've got all these mind-blowing experiences. Yes. All the rest of it. Yeah, I think that's a very important thing. I think that's a very important thing. I think that's a very important thing. You know what I thought it would be for me? That I would be able to... It's so silly.

Oh, I'm sure it's not. That I would be able to live on the scent of rose petals. On what? Do you know where that comes from? Does that sound familiar? No, no. That's from the autobiography of a yogi. Living on the scent of rose petals. I read that when I was 13. Ever since the age of 13, there was always this possibility in the back of my mind that there could be a day I would be able to live on the scent of roses. And that's one of the books that formed it for me too. See? So long I haven't thought about it in years.

But all of that has been piling up. You know? You see, you read these things, you don't stop to look and see, was he living on the scent of roses? He's talking about somebody else's, and that's only his story about them. Was he able to do the things he's attributed to his other people? Hell, he dropped dead of a heart attack in the middle of dinner. He probably sold so many books, he was living off the money from the books. He flopped right on the table in front of everybody. The type of what we say. Yes. Not what we read, nor what we see. It was a planned transition though.

According to his disciples. Well, I have to admit, I was a self-realization student as well for many years. But I think in the realm... Done it all. This is all just in the same realm of illusion, not necessarily deceptive illusion, but just in the level of illusion, the laws of nature operate differently at different levels, and we don't know, but there are people who live without eating food, who live on water. There are. And they've done it for years. There are breatharians. There's a hammer in breatharians in the world. That was one of the other things I thought was going to happen too. But that's just another experience, as Bob had pointed out, and so it becomes like that new point, well, oh, all right, so yeah, you could do that.

And it would just be that false self there enjoying the ego experience of whatever that would represent. People knowing that I live on this planet, I live on this ship of roses, petals, or I live without eating. It's the ego which is false, and it's all part of the illusory world. It doesn't matter one way or the other whether that's real or not in the illusion experience. So it's all appearances and possibilities. Right. But that's what makes the whole thing interesting, isn't it? And the appearance is just how it appears to be. In essence, it's still the one reality. Exactly. It still never changes. I was just foreseeing the possibility.

Well, that's... I was just foreseeing the possibility of somebody who had invested so much of themselves, what they thought was themselves, and that's going to lay around for a while, I guess, and wanting to feel like a chump for having believed and been deceived. And I don't necessarily think it was a deception. I think it's just another level of awareness. And whether that's worth going after, you know, you take your choice. It's an illusory... Ultimately, it's illusory. But to say with that feeling, you know, you're a chump because you've been deceived, that must disappear because, you know, that which is feeling a chump is just another...

Of course. ...mental image. Right. And all that, you know, the years and years I spent with them were too, you know. For a start, I thought, oh, I've got to waste it all. Now, it doesn't even matter. The time disappeared with it, you know. Right. It didn't matter. Well, how about... It was hard to explain, but at the same time, it disappeared with it. It just went like that. There was no period of 16 years that can be recalled. Right. But you didn't draw in that other false self who had a fear of being duped, of being faked, of being deceived. Or angered. That one didn't have to come into it.

You weren't deceived. People told you things that they believed and were sincere about. You don't have to go to that false self at all. He's not even going to show up. You don't have to disappear him. And that, you know, you always were that anyway. You always were the one reality. Right. And just things have appeared and disappeared. Right. That's never changed. Yeah, and would have it made any difference if you were chopping wood in that supposed time span? It didn't matter what you were doing. You know, it's labeling it. Exactly. That you were doing all this stuff to get somewhere and then you were chopped because of it.

Right. Everybody sitting here apparently has spent a certain amount of years living. So it doesn't matter what. Right. Does it either? You know, you can't sit down and cry, you can't sit down and cry about the past. Right. Even yours, you were apparently doing something too crazy. But innocent deception Yeah. is, it doesn't have as much sting for me and doesn't draw my false mind into the conversation about having been deceived. That's just for me, you know. Yeah. If I think that all these gurus, all these religious whatever, have been like, they're all con men. That would trouble me if I felt like Yogananda was a con man for heaven's sake.

I mean, that's going to draw a lot of energy out of me. Yes. To have to give up that, you know. But that would be a total misunderstanding. I mean, who's there to deceive and who was there to be deceived? Yeah, but Kerry, we can't kid anybody. Those false reference points are there waiting, trying to hold the mind together. Right. And if you add as many as you can there, there's no need to create some that aren't really necessarily real. What I'm saying is the laws of nature operate differently according, in this realm of illusion. These false laws of nature, whatever we call them, that generate this illusory existence, allow for all kinds of possibilities, including living on water and living on air, all that stuff.

Well, I mean, the Christians have visions of Christ. The Hindus have visions of Krishna. Absolutely. I mean, it shows up according to their beliefs and, you know. Interesting. Or, or, or, I mean, Hindus don't have visions of Christ. No. Or operations of deities, what we call deities, the illusory world of deities, Jews have no visions at all. that operate at those finer levels. Yeah. And get manifest and people interact with them. Yeah, or whatever. But Ann, you know, the thing that I want to say to you is, I mean, in my experience, you know, with these evading, you know, the evading approach is that your thing about your view of it being so fantastic, I mean, what would you say?

Everybody walks in with that? I mean, isn't that something almost? Yes. That's like, you know, you know, one out of a hundred doesn't come in with those views, you know. But it's, So don't feel like a lone ranger, you know. Even yesterday when I walked out, you know, because of what's been occurring, my story recently has been, I keep thinking, I got it. And then, so I walk out. I walk out yesterday and life is just going on, but I'm different, but I don't, I keep saying, well, this can't be it. This cannot be it. Where's the bliss? I'm not, you know, it's not a negative thing, but it's just I had a story.

And that story has been stopping me for quite a while. And that story has become a reference point. Yes. I need to ask about reference point. You all say it. What exactly do you mean by reference point? It's where I'm coming, that's where I'm coming from, my belief system. Yeah. Well, a belief is a reference point. Okay. But, you know, you're referring everything to that belief or not everything, but certain things to the belief, yeah. But that belief is what you're referring to and it's judged from near. It doesn't sit that belief. Like, your idea of enlightenment and what your experience is doesn't sit that belief.

It's all relative to that. It's judged from near. This is right or it's wrong. It's not. It is it or it's not it. But you see the reference point, have a look at the reference point. It says it's invalid. It's invalid. Because a belief is not the actuality. It's only a concept about something that could happen, something that you believed happens some other time ago. It's not the reality we're referring to. It's the same as the self-centred, which we call it, or the ego, is a reference point which we, which is relative to everything. It's judged from near as good, bad, happy, sad, and all the suffering and everything else comes from that reference point.

But that is an invalid reference point also because it's got no substance or independent notion. We couldn't even have it unless that consciousness or awareness is there. We couldn't form that mental concept, what we call the ego, and that's all it is. It's a fiction. You can't understand it. Even as a child I used to wonder why there were like in my religion that I was brought up in, that there were only like three or four biggies, you know. Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and then all the underlings for the rest of the centuries. I just, you see, and that was part of my story too.

There are only a few chosen in this awakening or understanding. No one's chosen because there is no one. Yes, yes. You see, it's, they call it ignorance. Now, down through the years, you've heard these things, you've had little glimpses of it and experienced it all the time. But we've ignored, and ignorance means ignored. We've ignored our true nature and gone to where we were conditioned to look. But a little child, when that sense of separation comes upon him, instead of turning back and saying, hey, wait a minute, this is not real, I'm not separate from that. For his reason, he wasn't separate from anything. He was just aware, but he wasn't self-aware.

He wasn't aware of that entity as a separate self. So, when that idea of self-center comes upon him, he's conditioned from that time on, by his parents, by his nations, the society, to look out there. Because with separation comes insecurity and vulnerability, isolation, all those things come from that. And believing in that belief we're separate, we want to become whole or complete, we're separate. And that's what the search is out there. Get a good education, you'll become more complete, or even starting with a little child, he wants that warm, loving family around him. A little child, if he's in a good family relationship, he feels much more secure, that's fine, that's vulnerable.

And in our days, families would form into tribes. Because more tribes, more families were within a tribe, the more less vulnerable they were, the more secure they felt. Nations form into nations today. And nations go to war with nations because of that very reason. Believing they're separate. And I frighten what the other nation will take from me, or I'll get in first, and take them over, and I'll be much more powerful, more secure, and more strong. All based on that sense of separation. And the search, you know, you get a good education, you'll be much more secure, that's one of them. A good relationship, a good relationship will make you happier and more secure.

Find a, then they invent a god, find a god. These things out there, the wealth, that everything they're amassing, gaining and adding, try and make them whole, then they invent a god. There was some future time, if I can't get it here, I'll get it in heaven, if I settle in his right hand side, and resurrect it on a future date, or if I'm an eastern citizen, I'll reincarnate and come back, and things will be better the next time. That's all projection about a future time, and the ancients tell us it's omnipresence, it's timeless. So we're looking and imagining, and always looking out there to gain, and if it's omnipresence, all presence, that's total presence, it's omnipotence, total power, and omniscience, total knowledge or intelligence, you must realise that you could never have been separate, because, you know, it doesn't leave room for you, or me, or anything else, if it's total power.

So that's why we say, from the start here, what you're seeking, you already are, and it's the search itself that becomes a problem then, because while you're seeking, you've got that belief that there's something to get, and there's nothing to get that can make you whole, when you're already complete. No matter how much you amass, accumulate and gain, you're still never completely happy or satisfied, but in this knowing that you're never separate, there's immediate equanimity and satisfaction, immediate, nothing to be added to you, nothing to be taken away, and that equanimity, as you say, because we're used to the gross sensations out there, every time we've got something that's been, we'll fall in love, or this happens, or that, a bigger and better sensation, well that's great, then it dies, and we look for another one.

That sense of equanimity, or equilibrium, whatever you like to call it, which has never changed, has constantly been there, seems very bland to the mind, for a start, but if it's not being evaluated in the mind, see the subtleties of the earth, it's life itself, and living is the joy of being, the love of life, and knowing that you are. But you stay with the subtleties, until they become more pronounced, not becoming with me, another me, staying with them, and recognizing them, or recognizing them, as to be the natural me. But do I have to sit next to you until, I'm still feeling like if I leave here, I'll get sucked back into it.

But you did that yesterday, did you get sucked back in? No, no. Well, I have that trance of it. As I say, initially, it's good to come and listen to these things for a little while, until it starts to settle down and consolidate it, or else get the books, or the CDs, read them, constantly reread them, because all the time, the more you read them, you'll see more and more as you open them, that you can grasp, which you might have missed before. Yes. And then, you don't have to read them. You go out there, you see where they're all coming from. If you understand and have seen, that there's no self-center here, you must understand there can be no self-center there.

And then you're in the box seat, really. You've got to, you can instantly, see where somebody's coming from. They're coming from that reference point, or their ego. Right. And it doesn't have to lodge here. They don't have to take on board what they're throwing at you, or what's happening there. And then, from there, instead of them sucking you back into that, you can suck them out of it. Really? Naturally. Because they want to see, they'll recognize in you, that there's something there, that they're attracted to, they want. Well, now, I didn't want to bring this up. Because I left yesterday, and I went shopping, and went and got Chinese food.

And I thought, okay, either I'm getting sucked in, everybody was so nice to me. Extraordinary smiling. People that, my Chinese food, they never smile there. Smiling and asking me, I wanted, and I thought, I'm walking in here, just, I didn't know what this was. Just, no thing. And so, there was this, it seemed, and I wasn't thinking about, oh, is this person going to look at me differently? I just noticed, observed that people were smiling and nice. Because if there's nothing here, there's no resistance there. And they're saying that, you know. They reckon, they mightn't even realize it. Right. Nothing in the neighborhood, you know.

No resistance there, what's going to happen? Bob calls it resistance, it's also commitment. Resistance is also, can be frequency. Or, he always talks about patterns of energy. That pattern of energy is changing. You know, basically, we're a body, but really we're a walking crystal. Really our body is, we're a walking water container coming down the street. We're really filled with all salts, right? And so really, basically we are, we're a crystal. And we're having, you know, the light comes in through this, you know, vibration. And as Bob says, it shines through our eyes. So, the vibration starts to change. The frequency starts to change in our body.

We start tuning, we're at 107.3 on the FM dial, and we're going down to 88.5. And all of a sudden, you know, that frequency changes. Go, go, go! Oh, I'm sorry. And as our frequency changes, then, you know, then that attracts the other frequencies to us. Bob, you like to listen to 88.5. Right? The ones you like to listen to 88.5. So, but my frequency at this point, is here, because everybody else is on 88.5, so it's clicking. Now, I go outside, and hit somebody else at a different frequency, there's discordance. That you're comparing. No. Not if there's no entity there, no reference point there.

Okay. Because, you know, if you've got no reference point there, and I call you an asshole, what's it going to hit? Right. When you say, ooh, me, and there's a meter there. And I'm laughing, and now it'll be really weird. You know, meter to resistance, or they call it a meter, immediate bristling, really, you know, carrying on. If it's now and then, who are you talking about? It goes through to the keeper. This is so fun. What do they call that in baseball, when it goes through to the keeper? A strike, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, a stretch. Yeah, it's a strike. It doesn't damage anybody.

The strike doesn't damage anybody. Okay. So, I'm going to go back to the, I was going to remind Bob about when you went to work, and you worked in some foundry or something with a whole lot of tough people, and they said, what's the matter with you? Are you in love? And you can finish it. And I said, yes. And I was, but it wasn't with a woman. And I felt that that was just, Yes. experience that I had. But you see, something, look, if it's just practical, magnesium will relax your muscles, okay? So, this can be like a dose of that, you know. When you see it and you're relaxed, your face probably isn't wrinkled, isn't, you know.

So, you are walking and seeing, seeing just what is. So, people see that and you, they catch your eye, oh, and that makes them smile. See? It's just, you don't even know that, what we are doing to ourselves, really. Right. With, with being white, and, and, and, and, and, and, with being white down with all this stuff, and, it's, yeah, just a relief. And this all gets metabolized like food. It changes the physiology. Yeah. You can. Mm-hmm. Well, we see, my little codependent thing came out, and I'm like, oh good, I'll be doing good. Okay, okay. Whoa. And now I'm talking about the crystal depth.

This is a story, of course, but it's not a bad one. Is there a bad or a good one? About the explanation now. And, and, how it comes about, you know, see there's, when in the sperm, the essence of the food, eaten by a father in the oven, eating the essence of the food. There is, what, intelligence energy, or what they call, qi, in, China, energy and prana in Hinduism, you know. So that's intelligence energy. Sperm, there is intelligence energy in the sperm, it's not just an inanimate thing, because when, those two, the dynamic in those two, when they come together, the energy in them doubles that cell.

And, and, and. And, and redoubles it and doubles it for little fetus growth. All the time it's growing, it's taking in through the cord from the mother, it's breathing, chi breathing in chi and prana with the air and also eating food. And it's growing it, you know, long before the brain is formed. There's no, the little heart's beating, blood's circulating around it, you see. And the intelligence energy is growing by itself effortlessly. But it's got to live on that chi and prana, you see. The energy, that's the energy part of it. The intelligence. So when it's born, what happens? The cord's gone. It's got to take its first breath.

Now, taking that first breath and it continues to grow, what is, you know, energy, another term for energy is light. So it's breathing in light, or it's coming in, there's light coming in. And what's light? It's got to find an aperture. A light will shine out of an aperture. It's got a crack in the wall. A light will find it. It's got a light effect on it. So where does it come? That light comes up, shines out through your eyes. And that's what it might have, it might have, you see. It might. Now that light shines. You put the sun, a ray of the sun, through a crystal.

What happens? It fragments. It breaks it up into different colours, doesn't it? That ray of light is just still the ray of light, but it's seemingly broken up into different colours. Now what do you see? You see it in any other way than colour. Colour and patterns. So it's broken, you know. That light shining through the crystal broken up into colour and patterns. This is its manifestation. That's all it is. It's just one ray of light vibrating in this universe. And even the crystal is that too. So this is vibrating. And that's what a lot of us don't do. We don't include this in it.

So then, like Christ, you can say, I am the light of the world. Good. The light of the world. The world appears in that light. Good story? Yes. Excellent story.