Sailor Bob - nonduality - Can I live without ego? 14.07.2019

So we start with the name from Katharina. Sandra. Ben. Michael. Tess. Simon. Jamie. Kimberly. Sam. And Bob. Well, give you the run through again and again and again and again. Same old, same old. We can't teach you anything here and we can't tell you anything. What we do is point toward and ask you to look to where we're pointing to to see for yourself. Because when you understand what we're pointing to you'll realize that nobody can teach you anything and nobody can tell you anything. Because it's not, it's based on what the ancient traditions will tell us. Hindu, for instance, they call it Advaita. Advaita translated means non-duality.

And they try to describe non-duality by saying it's one without a second. Not a second as the time, second, but one without the other. Not two. So if it's not two, it must mean that you are already that. So who can teach you anything and who can tell you anything? And another way I put it, I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm not speaking to the body-mind entity. You've taken yourself to believe that you are. I'm speaking to that sense of presence that expresses or translates through the mind as the thought, I am. Just to this and nothing else. But what we're actually saying that there is nobody who is not that.

And that's the Mahavaka or the great mantra. I am that. Thou art that. This is that. Everything is that. Innately, don't you know that in your language already? Because you say that's the chair, that's the carpet, that's the tree, that's the flower. That's the car, that's the shirt. Everything is that. Which we've put labels or words on. And when you realise that the word is not the thing and every word you've ever spoken has been picked up along the way, you weren't born with any words. So you'll see that though we've got the labels on things, the labels are not the actuality. The actuality is that you are already that essence or spirit.

There's another term for essence. That non-dual, one essence that's patterning, shaping, forming and expressing as everything. And we say start from the fact that you are already that. But we've got the conditioned idea and concept that we are this person. We are this individual. We are this separate entity. When you investigate that, where does this idea person come from? Doesn't it come from an ancient language? Latin, I think it was, thousands of years ago? Persona, the mask. That's what the person means, persona, the mask. So we've got this mask of identity, a conceptual image based on past events, experiences and conditioning which we label I or me.

That's not what your reality is. Your reality is that one essence is patterning, shaping, forming and expressing as everything which we put the labels or words on. I ask you to investigate that, because one of the things we point out is that the false cannot stand up to investigation. We've taken on the belief we are this separate entity, this person, and we suffer accordingly. Because it's only in me that can be fearful. Only me that can be anxious. Only me that can be depressed or unhappy. So, I'm not saying that. Me is the cause, the belief in me is the cause of all my psychological suffering.

So we ask you to investigate that to see for yourself. Are you this person? Are you this individual? Are you this separate entity? We start from your belief we are this body-mind entity, this individual. Are you the body? Are you the mind? And innately, you already know you're not the body, because don't you say my body, my mind. Don't you say my house, my car, my coat. You know damn well you're not the house, the car or the coat. But putting it under the same thing, maybe you're not the body either. We're taking the belief we are, but when you investigate it, maybe you're not that body.

The same with the mind. You say my mind. Maybe you're not the mind either. Investigate and have a look, because we point out that the false, cannot not stand up to the investigation. When you really look into these things, if they're false, they'll fall apart under the investigation. If they're the fact, you can't get rid of the fact. Have a look. Are you this body? You say my body, my mind. What's the body made up of, if you think you are the body? You riddle the body, all this body is made up of elements. Air, earth, fire, water and space. Just like the elements around you.

Investigate that. Take the air out of your body and see if you can separate yourself from those elements. Separate yourself from the air. You wouldn't last very long if you stopped your breathing. Separate yourself from the water. Your body is 80% water. Separate yourself from the earth. Or the fire, take the body temperature out of it. It wouldn't last long. Get off the earth if you can. Get out of space. It doesn't have to be much to see that you can't separate yourself from the earth. It's much to see that you can't separate yourself from these elements. And what about this thing called mind? We believe we are this mind.

We say my mind. Well, if you think you are the mind, show me your mind. Does anyone stand up and say this is what mind is? You can't. Because when you look into it, there's no such thing as mind apart from thought. And if you were this mind, which particular thought would you be? And you realise the primary thought is, the first thought is that I thought I am. That sense of presence, the knowing that you are, translates through the thinking as the thought I am. But we don't believe it's pure I am. We add it onto it. I'm Bob, the Australian, the good fellow.

Put all these concepts, mental concepts on it. And give ourselves some seeming entity. It's a good look at that too. Are all these concepts the real? Yes. It's all the mind consists of. Concepts. All concepts are mental constructs. Mental constructs are thoughts. And which, if you were this I thought, you couldn't get rid of it. But you gladly give up that thought every night when you go to sleep. Proving that, you know, if you were the thought, you're not the thought because you can only give it up. You'd be fearful of giving it up. But you know damn well you're not that when you're a native because you gladly give it up every night when you go to sleep.

And you wake up again next morning and that thought wasn't there while you were asleep. So you can't be a thought. And when you look at a thought, what's a thought when it's broken down? You'll see a thought is a vibration. Vibrating the concepts or words, ideas. And, and we'll look at it again. When did you begin? You'll say I began at birth. But can any one of you actually remember your birth? And you realize you can't remember your birth. So how can you say I began at birth if you don't remember your birth? And you realize you don't, didn't learn any words till you were about two, two and a half when the capacity of reasoning developed in you.

And when you begin, first thing you're going to do, you're going to start to think, you're going to start to think. And your parents fussing around you, torture these words. You're a little Johnny, you're a good fella, you're not so good. You're angry or you're fearful. And every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been acquired, been picked up. You weren't born with any words. And when you investigate the word, you'll see the word's not the real. It's not the thing. Take the word water. Can you wash in the word? Can you drink the word? Can you swim in the word? You can't.

Does the word fire burn your mouth? The word fire doesn't burn your mouth. Can you cook with the word? Can you heat yourself with it? So the word is not the thing. So what's this word I or me that we've put upon ourselves and taken ourselves to be real? And you realize it's just another label. All the words are labels we've learned. And you didn't have any words. You didn't have any labels. It tells you about two, two and a half years of age. Well, we go back and look at that further and question, when did you begin? We'll go back as far as your father and your mother and realize that animating life essence, the intelligence energy, what I call intelligence energy, enabled in that pattern called your father through the breath and through the food, essence of the food eaten, and in that pattern, a little microscopic particle called the sperm to form.

That sperm was suffused with a innate intelligence that knew what to do. And the same with your mother. That animating life essence, a pattern shaped and formed your mother, enabled in that pattern another little microscopic particle called an egg or an ovum to form in that pattern. And that ovum was suffused with intelligence. It knew what to do. It attached itself to the wall of the uterus. It wasn't floating around there at willy-nilly. It attached itself to the wall of the uterus, implying it was suffused with intelligence, knowing what to do. And the sperm was suffused with intelligence, knew what to do. It swam to the ovum.

Again, it wasn't just another blob floating around. It had the intelligence knowing what to do, to swim toward the ovum and to penetrate the ovum. And when those two came together, what happened? That cell doubled and redoubled and formed the little embryo, the little fetus began to form. And that is what you are today. So what were you doing about it then and what are you doing about it now? Realise you haven't done anything at all about that forming, pattern shape and forming of it. But we've taken on the belief that we're running the show and suffering accordingly. So when that little embryo was born, it didn't have any words.

And it didn't have any words until the capacity of reasoning developed in it. At about two, two and a half, or might be a bit earlier in some people, a bit later in others. Capacity of reasoning. And that's the capacity these human forms have, which is more developed than what it is in other animals, birds and insects. They have different capacities that we don't have. A bird, for instance, has better eyesight than you and me. It has a capacity of flying. We can't do that naturally. But through the capacity of reasoning, we've learnt to build ourselves eyeglasses or binoculars or telescopes which enable us to see better.

And also, through the capacity of reasoning, we've learnt to build ourselves planes, helicopters, balloons and things like that that enable us to fly. Now, a dog has a capacity of smelling that's much better than yours. Chameleons and other little animals, little reptiles or whatever you like to call them, can change colour. They have the capacity of changing colour. We can't do that. Other insects like moths and butterflies, they form maggots or worms, whatever you like to call it, or grubs, and build a cocoon around themselves and let they grow. And burst out and become a butterfly or a moth with all those beautiful colours and shapes of form.

It forms an amazing intelligence energy that's pattern shaping and forming them. We've got a pea fowl's egg, it's got a yolk in it, and a white in it, it's just the same as any other hen egg, but in that intelligence energy in it, a pea fowl forms out of it with all the beautiful colours in that. So there's capacity of reasoning in those. Insects, birds and things, it's amazing. Just the same as it is amazing in its human form with the capacity of reasoning. Look at all the wondrous things we can do through the capacity of reasoning. But we believe that we are doing it as separate entities and individuals.

If it wasn't for that life essence, or that intelligence energy, which I use the term intelligence energy, I don't use the term God, because we can get confused with that term, purely and simply we all come from different backgrounds. Some of you might be atheists, some of you could be agnostics, some of you are Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists or Jews. We start using the term God, you're related to what your traditional belief is, and go along the lines that they're going along, which they've obscured the natural answers to, with all they've added onto it, and put all those conceptual ideas and images onto it. So we get confused with that.

We use the term intelligence energy, but that's not it. That label's not it either. There's no word or label that you can say this is it. But intelligence energy, I explain it this way. Have a look out there in nature, and you'll see in nature there are galaxies forming, planets moving around, Earth going around the sun, seasons coming and going, tides coming in and out. Doesn't that imply that nature itself is fused with a wondrous intelligence that's enabled it to do all these things? All these things can be broken down into subatomic particles, into pure energy. And it's that same intelligence energy that's functioning all these things, that's breathing you right now.

That's growing your hair and your fingernails. That's digesting your food. That's replacing cells in your body. All naturally, effortlessly and spontaneously. But we put this label, me or I, on it and think we are doing it and suffer accordingly. But it's life itself that's patterning, shaping, forming, experiencing and expressing as that. And everything is that. When you say, I am that, innately you know that you are that. Because don't we say innately that that is a chair, that is a carpet, that is a tree, that is the flower, that is me, that is you. Everything is that. Innate, intelligence energy. Which we put labels on.

Chair, table, car, me, you and whatever. And taken the label or the word to be real. And we point out the word is not the real. The word water, you can't drink it, you can't, the word fire, you can't cook it, you can't eat it, heat with it or whatever. The word is not the real. And you can't do much with this I or me. The capacity of reasoning comes upon us and we take ourselves, when we learn words like I or me, you can't do much with this I or me, but what have we done to it? What we've done, we've added concepts, other words or labels on them.

I'm Bob. My parents told me that's my name. I'm an individual. I'm a person. I'm a human being. Take that word human being. You call yourself a human being. If you believe in this thing called God, you call God the supreme being. What happens if you take the label supreme off? And take the label human off? And try and separate the beingness in this room without the label? And you realise you can't separate the beingness because that's being a chair you're sitting on, that's being the carpet. That's being Simon. That's being Tony. That's all being me. It's being you. Everything is that beingness which we put labels or words on.

And taking the words are the separation, separating idea or concept. There's been absolutely, actually no separation whatsoever. There's seemingly separate patterns. And all these patterns can be broken down into subatomic particles, into pure energy. So it's all that one essence appearing and expressing as everything. That's when we started off as I can't teach you anything, can't tell you anything. Because if everything is already that, who's going to tell who what? Why, when or how? God. But it needs to be recognised. We've taken on this belief and we've never questioned it. And look around at your schools, your parents, your society, and everyone around you is reinforced.

And we keep reinforcing that belief we are this person, persona, a mask, or separate entity. And we keep, after a while, when we're growing up, we keep reinforcing it ourselves. And you never move away from it. But all these great traditions that have been formed by somebody way back down through the ages that recognised the true nature of themselves. And in those days, it was able to pass it on to one or two in a village or wherever they were because we didn't have computers or ways of communicating we've got today. And they passed it on to a few, passed it on to a few others, and then some people started to put their own idea or concepts onto it and put all these rules and regulations on it.

So all these religions now have got these rules and regulations. But basically they point to the one essence. Now that's what needs to happen. You need to recognise your true nature. And I can't recognise it because the Buddha told us it is a cognising emptiness. Cognising or knowing emptiness. And he made the statement way back then, a couple of thousand years ago, that emptiness is form. That is, we think it's this, we are cognising the emptiness with our capacity of knowing. It's not that at all. It is the emptiness itself that has the capacity of cognising or reasoning, I'll reinforce you. And he made the statement emptiness is form.

And he pointed out that the form can be nothing but the emptiness. Now you and I and everything in this manifestation are patterns, shapes and forms. But we don't recognise or realise that every form, it's that emptiness, it's the cognising emptiness that's vibrating into the forms. We think we are the form. But the form is emptiness. And it can be nothing other than the emptiness, appearing as something. We've got this belief that we are this entity. And they call it a phenomenal manifestation in Buddhism, or maya, illusion. A manifestation is maya, or illusion. That's a phenomenal manifestation. Look up your dictionary definition of phenomena. And the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be.

Appears to be. It's certainly appearing. You can't say there's no appearance in this manifestation. It certainly is a seeming to be. But all that appearance is, it's only seemingly so. It has no substance or any independent nature to it. So back to the emptiness is form. Form is emptiness. The cognising, it's the emptiness itself that's cognising. We lose sight of that when we take on the belief we are this persona. And with the reasoning, we try to make the reasoning, what's appearing to be, the emptiness to be real. But we need to re-cognise that it is all maya. It's all an illusion. It's not how it appears to be.

And that's what recognition means. Re-cognising. It's the emptiness itself that's cognising. And it's the emptiness that we're re-cognising. If it's seemingly lost sight of, with the conceptualising and thinking that's going on. And that's what happens. We're taking the concepts, or the thinking concepts, to be real, and focus into the concepts, into the thinking, and lose sight of how it's appearing or how it's seeming to be in reasoning. That is just a vibrating pattern of energy. Just the same as, all it is is this life essence we've taken to be this conceptual image, to recognise that the life essence is doing it all. It's the life essence that's cognising or knowing, not the person.

The persona comes from the ancient language, persona the mask. The person, the belief that we are the person is a mask, a conceptual image we've taken to be real. The mask or the image is not what we actually are. You are the life essence itself. That's patterning, shaping and forming, and expressing as all these patterns, shapes and forms, which are empty. In recognising that, what happens if you take the life essence out of this body? What have you got? You've got a corpse. Now that corpse has the eyes, the ears, the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, the blood, and all these organs in it. What good are they to it if that life essence is not there?

Can a corpse do that? Can a corpse see? Can it hear? Can it reason? Can it think? Can it breathe? It can't do any of those things. So if that life essence is out of it, it's a corpse, there's none of these things going on. And they couldn't happen without that life essence. Just like a computer's got all that wonderful information in it, but what good is that information if the power's not turned on? What good is this body-mind, a corpse, good to anybody if that life essence or power is not head-to-body communication? What good is that? Nothing. I said, I said the same thing about the life essence.

Right. So when you see it, you've got the self in that consciousness, you've got the divine and the divine TV in the water, and you've got this power, natural innate intelligence. And the life essence that's functioning in the universe wasn't functioning through it. But see, we've taken on the belief we are this separate, this individual that we're running the show. This egoic image thinks I'm running the show. But it's not doing a damn thing. It's the life essence that's doing it all. So what must you be? Are you the body-mind, or are you the life essence? And isn't that what the Christ told you He said, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life.

Not talking about himself, but that sense of presence which translates through the mind as the thought, I am. That's the way, that's the truth, that is the life of you. The sense of presence, the intelligence energy, or the godliness, if you like to use that term. You can use that term, God, if you understand what it is. It's not relating to some personal entity or belief because every tradition will have a different label on what that God is. And doesn't it tell you that in the Bible? In the beginning it was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. That's all that God is, is a Word.

We put the label God on it here and everybody's got a different label of what that God is. All things were made by him, by the Word. And isn't that what we're doing? We're putting labels on everything. Tree, flower, house, crown. There was nothing made that was made without the Word. So we've taken the Word to be real. The Buddhists will have a different idea of what they think this God is or this one essence is. The Christians, the Hindus, the Muslims, everybody's got a different label for it. And so they fight and argue over these labels, which label is real. But there's no label real because all the labels or words are concepts, mental concepts.

And there's no mental construct that has any reality or any individual essence whatsoever. But you are the life itself. And that's what Christ again told you. Take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, what you shall drink, what you shall wear. Your father knows that you have neither of these things. And the father is not the big daddy in the sky. It's that innate intelligence, which is the, if you like to put it that way, it's the father, mother, the beginning and the reality. You have to be of every pattern, shape and form and every label we've ever learnt or ever likely to learn.

And you can't be anything other than that. But we've bound ourselves in the word and put the limitations and boundaries of it on ourselves because that's what the word does. See, look at your thinking. How does thinking go about? You'll see thinking is a vibration movement of any and it's a dualistic vibration. It's always vibrating in the interrelated opposites. You're either in the past, which is a mad, which is memory, or you're either in the future, which is anticipation, imagination. It's either good or it's bad. It's pleasant and it's painful. It's happy, sad. Watch the way your mind thinks and see, it's always vibrating in these dualistic thinking.

And the boundaries and limitations we put upon it are the word. Good, bad, happy, unhappy, sad, joyful. All bound by the words. And the word is not the real. So that's what we need to look at. When the capacity of reasoning comes upon us, when we learn words, we learn words from our parents. I am little Johnny or little Billy, whatever our parents tell me. I'm a good fellow or not so good, I'm unhappy, I'm sad, I'm fearful, I'm anxious, I'm depressed. Put all these concepts on it, now I've got a conceptual image. An image made up of thoughts, concepts and ideas. Me, Bob, the Australian good fellow that's unhappy or fearful or bad childhood, was abused and all the rest of it.

And that dead image cannot keep up with life. Because life is always constantly changing. It's ever fresh, it's ever free, it's ever moving on. But we put the boundaries and we relate to the boundaries or the words. And we've come to believe in them because we never question. But look at your dictionary definition of belief. And say belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. An acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. And that's what we go along with, with this belief that we are this entity. So we can never keep up with life. And that's why we're fearful, anxious, unhappy, depressed, guilty.

All our psychological suffering comes about because we've got this belief we are this entity. But if you investigate it, look into it, you'll see that it is not the fact, it's a false belief. And you can see that it's not the fact, it's a false belief. And be free of that belief. And Shakespeare told you that, what the problem was. Three or four hundred years ago, or whatever it was. He says there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. The Sarcadet tells you the same thing. Nothing can trouble you, excepting your own imagination. Now we're troubled by a hell of a lot of things, aren't we?

But when you take that and say nothing at all can trouble you, excepting your own imagination, and have a look into that. There's the way out for you. Break that word, imagination down to image in. And realise that's all we're doing. We're creating mental or conceptual images about this, that and everything else. And taking the image to be real, and we're bound in the image. That's where all the trouble comes from. I like it, I don't like it. I'm fearful. I'm fearful, I'm unhappy, I'm depressed, or I'm not good enough. After all, I'm only human. All these mental images or concepts we put on it and beaten ourselves up with the word and bound in that.

They're the limitations or boundaries we put upon ourselves as the word, which didn't begin until you were about two, two and a half. You were not born with any words. And have a look at the little baby when you see one and see it's getting along all right. It's seeing, it's hearing, it's tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, heart beating. The functioning is going on, but at that stage it hasn't learnt any words. And just relying on its parents, look after it, feed it and all the rest of it. And if it's hungry, it'll let you know. If it's happy, it'll gurgle. But it hasn't got any words to say.

Do this for me. Do that for me. Do that. And not until it learns words when the capacity of reasoning starts at about two, two and a half. And that's when our problem starts. And that's where our problem carries on. Because our parents don't tell me to question it. Our schools don't tell you to question it. Purely and simply because they've never looked into themselves. And as I say, down through the ages there have been people that looked into it. And they'll tell you so. And very few have followed it. These days, when the way of communication is much greater now with computers and everything like that and phones and things, we can get to more people.

More and more people are hearing about it and beginning to recognise and understand it. And it's quite simple to recognise and understand. And break away from the habitual patterns we've got and the habitual beliefs we've taken on. We're so conditioned into these words. We're so conditioned into these religious beliefs. Take them to be real. We're frightened to let a lot of it go. And we do the meditation and the looking in the mind for the answer. But they tell you, you'll never find the answer in the mind. You will never ever get peace of mind. And isn't that so? If you could get peace of mind, you'd have it long ago.

But the mind can never be at peace because the nature of the mind is to vibrate. And it will continue to vibrate. And it pairs of opposites. When they say that they never get peace of mind, they call it the peace that passes all understanding. Purely and simply because it can't be grasped with the mind. So what way is there out of the mind? You look at the mind and see they'll never find the answer there. The peace is when the mind is not. That's why they call it the peace that passes all understanding. It can't be grasped or thought of with the thought. When you look at it.

When you look into the mind and see what the mind is not. What way is there out of the mind? You'll say that every direction you look will always be in the mind. The only way out of the mind is full stop. Just don't go there. Why don't you ask yourself what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? And I need to stop a thought for a moment. Pause the thought. What can I say without a thought? Can I say it's good or bad without a thought? Can I say it's happy, sad, positive? I can't. And if I'm not saying anything, what's there?

No concepts, no ideas, no images. It must be at peace. Because it's only the concepts that can disturb it. There's your way out. Look into it. See what, without a thought, there is nothing either good or bad or nothing can trouble you if you're not imagining. That's all that imagination is. Imaging in. We're creating mental. Mental or conceptual images. And taking the word to be real. Now this conceptual image we've got we call the reference point, the self-centre or the ego. Three labels we're putting on the one thing. Reference point means we're referring to it all the time or relating to it. Reference point or ego.

We're calling it the ego, the self-centre. And that word ego didn't come into our language until Freud, I think. Freud made that word so not that very long ago, a few hundred years ago, whenever it was. The ego is a fiction. We've taken it to be real and they tell you, you've got to be rid of this ego, you've got to stamp on it, you've got to kill it, you've got to drown it or do it. But we say it's a fiction. It never ever existed. It's just a label, a conceptual image we put upon it. And that's what needs to be looked at. So we need to question everything that becomes relative to this ego.

Have a look at it. All our problems are problems of relationship. Relationship is dualism, relativity. Have a look at it. Something comes up and I like it. How do you know? Well, I've had this before and it's good. We don't want the good things to go. We want to keep the good things. We don't want the bad things. We want the good things. Not realising that everything is transient. The whole manifestation is constantly changing. It's not time-bound. It's not time-bound. It's not time-bound at all. It's only spontaneous activity. That body you walked into the room with is not the same body you've got now. There are thousands of cells dying in it right at this moment and being replaced.

And you know damn well it's not the same body you had a couple of years ago because the concept you've got about yourself has changed. It's not the same body you had when you were a little child. All these things happen to us. So it's transient, constantly changing. We don't realise that. We take it to be real. This conceptual image we take to be this solid, substantial thing. But have a look at it. We don't want it to go. So what do we do? We try to hang on to the good things. Try to keep them there. And very trying to keep them there, we're resisting it.

Not letting it, not knowing it's changing and not letting it go. We resist it, try to keep it there. And don't you realise that any resistance you are in, you are in conflict. Resistance is conflict. And any conflict you are in makes you unhappy, depressed, anxious, fearful, uneasy. Another term for uneasiness is disease. So there's resistance, conflict and disease going on. Something comes up and I don't like it. I don't want this, I don't like it. So what do we do? We try to get rid of it by resisting it. Again, resistance, conflict and disease. So whether you like it or dislike it, the same resistance, conflict and disease is going on.

That's all our life's made up of, constant resistance, conflict and disease. We say here it doesn't have to be like that. Investigate. And that resistance, conflict is relationship, it's relativity. Relativity or relationship is dualism. All our problems are problems of dualism. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do it. Of dualism. Dualistic repulsion. We say it doesn't have to be like that. It needs a little bit of investigation and looking into it. We ask ourselves to look along those lines and have a look and see if what we're saying here, that the ego is a fiction. It's all happening to me. It's only me that can be fearful, this conceptual thing.

It's only me that can be happy, only me that can be fearful, depressed, guilty, shameful. Me is the cause. of all my problems and the effects are anxious, fear, depression, guilty, unhappiness, sadness. Isn't that what our life's made up of most of the time? Moments when we drop the thoughts before the thoughts for a moment and things are going well but they don't last long, we go back into the trying to work it out in the mind. And trying, the very effect of trying to work things out in the mind starts the mind up again and it never comes to any conclusion. You can meditate as long as you like and you never find the answer.

You can repeat mantras as long as you like and you never find the answer. They might help initially in quieting the mind a bit but they never take it in because the mind's got to be seen through. And have a look at that question if something comes up and I like it, I resist it, something else. So have a look at it. We'll go in and investigate this me and see if it is the actuality or not. Everybody is seeing this right, seeing right now. And everybody is hearing right now. Isn't that a fact? What did you have to do when you opened your eyes this morning?

Did you say I've got to start seeing now? You didn't. The seeing was there immediately and the hearing also. You didn't say I've got to start hearing either. The hearing was there. Somebody had called you loudly in deep sleep. The hearing wasn't too far away. It'd be there. So you see the seeing and the hearing are happening. And the thought's translated, that hearing and seeing is translated the thought I see or the thought I hear. So the instrument that's translating is the thought. The thought I see. And remember what we've done with this thought I see, it's not just a pure seeing anymore. It's me, Bob, the Australian, the good fella or the bad fella, the conceptual image I've got about myself thinks it is seeing.

Thinks it is hearing, the conceptual image. the conceptual image. But ask yourself this, the seeing is the instrument through which the thought I see comes up and it's translated by the thought I see which is the mind, the thinking. Seeing is happening and hearing is happening but my eye doesn't say my I see, my ear doesn't say I hear. The thought comes up and translates it, the thought I see and the thought I hear. So that thought I see is not the pure seeing anymore because we put on it I see. Me, Bob the Australian, now thinks it has the capacity of seeing. The same with the hearing.

Hearing is happening through the ear and I put on it I hear. It's not the pure hearing anymore, it's me Bob the Australian that thinks it's a hearing, the conceptual image, the egoic image thinks of seeing and hearing. But can the thought I see actually think? See, see. Can a thought see? Well prove it to yourself right now, close your eyes and look around the room and see what you can see with a thought. Can you see anything at all with a thought? No, all you see is the darkness behind your lens, the eyelids. The thought I see can't see. The thought I do the same with your ears, block your ears off and see what you can hear with a thought.

The thought I hear can't hear. So is the thought I am aware? Yes. Or I am conscious? The thought I am conscious and the thought I am aware, is that your awareness? It's not. The thought I am conscious, is that consciousness? No, it's not. So the thought I see, I hear, I choose, I do all these things, can't do anything at all. If you could choose a thought why would you ever be unhappy or miserable? So this thought up entity, this egoic entity, can't see, can't hear, can't be aware, can't choose, can't do anything at all. And you see that again. If you take the life essence out of that body, you've got all these organs are still there, the eyes, the ears, the heart, the lungs are all there, without that life thrown through them, what good?

They start to decay, immediately start to break down and fall apart. So it's not the organs or the thoughts that can do anything, it is the life essence itself. So what must you be? Must you be this conceptual or egoic image, which we've taken ourselves to believe, another question? Or must you be the life essence itself? You must realise without that life you can't do anything. So you must be the life itself and function from that point of view. When you say I am that, I am that life, I am that tree, I am that flower, I am that pattern, shape and form. Everything is pattern, shape and form.

I am that. Not a separate entity, but seeing and hearing that, I am the thatness itself. Now that's what we need to look at and see for yourself. Now just look along those lines, see for yourself and that's about it. Got any questions or any arguments or any doubts or whatever? Oh those of you who have investigated and seen it and understand it, give us your version, how you're seeing it and how it's expressing for you. Because I can't think of anything else in the moment, but things will come up along the way. But you can get into it yourself and add to it or do what you like with it.

Pardon? Which is a very strong feeling that I do not accept. It feels like it's a rapid dissolution of self that I've had this experience many times in my life. Even as a child, I was a child. Yeah. It can happen when I'm feeling safe in bed, all of a sudden my body-mind disappears. It's just, and I have to, all of a sudden I don't know what this is and I have to hang on to things and the question coming to arising is what is this? What is this? And it's happened a lot. You've had a taste of it all through your life. I have.

And when you say I do not exist, that's a fact. Yes. You as the person have never existed. But can you negate the existence itself? Can I negate the existence itself? Can you say I am not? Do you disappear? I probably could if I gave it a good go. Say it loud. I am not, I am not, I am not. But experience it. Yeah, when Bruce is saying it, cannot be said if there was nothing there. I am not is quite right, that's just a concept. That consciousness hasn't gone away. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not.

I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. I am not. But you're not labelling it it's being. So I am that, separate chatananda there's nama rupa, that's five factors. Existence, consciousness, bliss, the nama rupa, the name and form are Maya, illusion. Can you negate your existence? Think I've been doing it my whole life really. You've been creating a concept, but even just say I do not exist, much doesn't imply there is existence there itself. Are you unconscious right now? There is consciousness. Right. conscious there. Are you happy to be right now?

Well that's the ananda, the loving to be. Now the nama rupa, when you say I do not exist, that's the body-mind. Are you the body? Are you the mind? Well there you go. So you must be existence conscious bliss. You can't negate them but you can negate the body-mind. So you're that. Just stay in it. Abide as that. Don't go back into the conceptualisation. Now it'll come up. If it comes up it can be utilised but don't believe in it or then you keep reinforcing it. To express in this manifestation you've got to be a semeny entity, body-mind entity to express through. But what form that pattern you're expressing through?

Was it any person or anything or was it the life essence itself? It's breathing and beating a heart and carrying on right now. So you realise you've been that all along but taken on the belief. And gone into the belief trying to find the answer in the mind and you can't find it. Of course you can't because it's not in the mind but without the mind you're already out of it. You won't get peace of mind. When you go to sleep at night, you're not dreaming, you have a peaceful sleep don't you? Why? Because the mind is out of the road. I think what you're describing is a beautiful description and it's like we are both sailors.

We both spent years on the ships. So the analogy of the ways we were on the ship is that we wave and the ocean. Like if you lose the identification as the wave, as the separate me, and now you kind of drop into that ocean of existence. But there is still an existence, there is still the ocean. So it is really losing the boundaries, like Bob was saying, you drop off any concepts of what you are or who you are, you drop the boundary of the skin, the boundary of the mind or anything, and you're just pure existence, you're pure being. And that is the natural state.

And if you have it, very often throughout the day and from childhood, I remember glimpses like this from childhood also, when there is just seeing, just pure, plain seeing, and there is no one who is doing the looking. It's just plain function of consciousness, of being, seeing, hearing, just that's exactly the state which when it's kind of anchored completely is called the enlightenment or is called the, that's the up-and-coming. So it's kind of like a self-absence. It's like an absence of self. So you know it very well. It's just kind of finding it, because then the entity comes and claims and says, I had a great experience.

That was me, I had an experience of no self or I had an experience of opening. But that's only a story. Because the self, the image cannot have any experiences. It is just like, it's an image. So the experience is a natural state. And then the self that comes and goes and says, me. It's just, it's just a narrative. It's nothing. So actually finding like what is more true for you. Are you actually conscious of being that plain ocean of existence all the time or occasionally comes the idea that, oh no, there is me and there is a consciousness. Because it is really about finding a certainty in that plain existence, that pure being that is leaving the body, expressing through the body.

Like I am live speaking through this mouth. Because I need the mouthpiece to speak or see. But I am live. And there is no doubt about it. Even if the body is being angry or the body is being, whatever the body is doing doesn't really matter. But it's really just that one life. And finding absolute certainty, like making it, because very often when it slowly peels off, the onion of conditioning peels off, people have, yeah, well, you know, I know it for most of the time, but conceptually. And then I forget and I get carried away. Who forgets? Who gets carried away? Because there is no one there to forget or to be carried away.

It's just a habit pattern. You kind of do need the function in society. This is where it became difficult for me because otherwise you're just sitting there being a presence and moving as an energetic being, just moving through life and responding to genuine call, callings. Like going to the toilet. But then... Yeah. Well, interacting with real estate agents, like how do you do that from a place of oceanic mind? Just the same. Just the same. Because this is what is going on. It feels like, okay, there is me. I need the me to go and buy the whatever, the pasta. But that's not... The functioning needs to happen.

And it does. The functioning is happening. Are you breathing right now? Yeah, it does. What did you say earlier in the piece? You said you derealise. Derealising. Well, who was derealising? Wasn't there a realisation of your derealising? Awareness of derealisation happening. Yes. Is that a personal... Well, there's... I know. That's a consciousness. All right. That's an awareness of it happening. There's your answer. There's your saying you do need this and you do need that. Oh, God. It's... The freedom of it though is just, you know, it's a ferocious freedom that's like... What do you mean ferocious freedom? Well, an ocean is ferocious, isn't it? An ocean is very energetic.

I knew it as a concept there. It can be very pleasurable too. Yeah, it can. It's just the idea that, well, we could say that for some reason we may need the personality, like we may need the language to communicate. But again, the personality is forming throughout our life and it's the same intelligence forming it. It's not that the ego is a personality and when I lose the ego, I don't have personality. No, the personality... It's like cats and dogs. They don't have ego. Because they don't have the self-concept or self-image. And they still have wonderful personalities or horrible personalities, depends. Why do you think they're cats and dogs?

No, because they... Well, according to science, they don't have the self-ink network in the brain. It is a part of the network that creates the illusion. There are actually two different networks. One creates illusion of self in time, like the continuity. And another one is self... And that one is the language self, the self that comes from the mind, the conceptual image. And another one is self in location, in space. So the self in location, having location, all the animals have as well. They have this network. They know kind of how to walk out the door. They locate themselves. But they don't have narrative self.

They don't have narrative language. They don't have that part of the network which tells them, I am separate. I am a self. They have personality but not the identification with the personality. They don't identify themselves as their personality. No, but... But? But... Like, I was having my cat put down and he knew he was going to die. What's that? Absolutely, even... It's the end that my life is going to end. Well, could that thought come to you, that life hasn't been flowing through you? But even plant has survival instinct. Because this is, again, how the life expects it to be. When the life is forming a tree or a plant or an animal, it equips it with everything it needs, with the seeing, hearing and the survival instinct.

And nothing wants to die. Everything loves to be. And that love of being and survival instinct is totally natural. But it doesn't mean that there is an entity. It is functioning. You know the background and the base, but you're seeing it, but you're frightened to let go of that me. Which is the fiction. Were you ever a smoker? I guess stupidly to ground me when I was having these experiences. It was so... Now, when you were smoking, what did you do with the butts? The butts? You threw them away. You'll throw the butts away right now. See, you've had a taste of it and you're very close to it, but you don't want to let it go.

Now, what's happened... Because there's death in them. It's not... It's not... It's not... There's death in them. There's death... Like Santa Claus never died. When you realise that Santa Claus wasn't real, it didn't die. You didn't have to kill them. You just realised. So, me... Realised that me is the cause of all your problems. Now, that's all the so-called karma is. Cause and effect. Me is the cause of your real problems. Now, can there be an effect without a cause? No. Then, can you really be an effect? No, there can't be. Well if the cause is me, investigate the me and see how real it is.

And where's the effect going to lodge if it's not related to the cause? All your imagination and imagining, got nowhere to fixate on. Of course it does. And it keeps you in bondage. The bondage of self. You want to stay in bondage, keep the mind going. You want to be free of it. And the funny thing is there was a guy who actually did statistics on so-called finders. And he checked up over a thousand of them. And not even one would ever, for any price, would get back his sense or her sense of identification. The I that you are about to shed away, you're not going to miss.

You're not going to miss. It's a fiction. And once you see it for what it is, it's not like, oh I want my I back, I want my suffering back. It is very simple. It's death involved. I wanted to survive. You don't. I mean, the moments when you actually are that ocean, aren't there most peaceful, blissful and beautiful moments of your life? And would you actually get rid of them or give them away? It's, yeah, it is the state of, like, for me it was the biggest contrast which, been few years ago, I'm only almost forgetting. The state of being a me is a state of being.

Being a me is a state of being incomplete. It's not good enough. It's like inadequate. Some sort of a, some sort of a void, inner void that, nah, as I am, I'm not there yet. I'm not that yet. There's always some sort of a discontentment. Sort of a longing for something else. Incompleteness. That sense of incompleteness and that suspect, that suspicion that I'm unlovable. I should not, you know. As I am, I'm not, I don't really have a right to be here. And it was there all the time, kind of a contraction that I had to look for how to complete myself. What to do to give myself a sense of relief.

That's how people get to addiction, to medicate that sort of incompleteness. Very indecisive in there. No, it's every single person who... Who feels it fills a hole. Yes. Fills a hole with them. Yeah, well, no, but others fill the hole by taking up addictions. Or by becoming perfect. Or, anyway, the hole is there for everyone who says I am less than absolute. Less than totality. Doesn't matter personality. You know, if I identify as something other than pure existence, life, I will be contracted. Because I will be less than my true nature. Even if my identification is that, ah, I'm wonderful. I'm better than everyone else.

That is still less than totality. And it will still occasionally bring up the same thing. It will still occasionally bring up the sense of incompleteness. And life with that sense of incompleteness and following, bringing up desires and chasing them and trying to fulfill them one after another, just seeking what else? Bigger, better and more pleasant experiences. Relief from that, instead of that sort of desire, that chasing, having the sense of peace, a sense of being totally fine with whatever happens. It's, it's, it's, nobody would ever trade it for anything. According to the statistics. There's no such thing as free will. No, because, because there's a doer there.

What you're talking about is that there's a doer there. And you described it before when you said, well, how do I function? Like if, um, I think you said real estate. So you must be into that. function at work how do i how do i do this and do that which implies that you still believe there's a me there that has choice that can actually choose well it was someone i was going for a house as a renter and i had to be someone on paper and i was nothing at that point there was nothingness and just how do i put who i am on paper and when you're being scrutinized from society you have to tick the boxes so suddenly i have to create a fiction of myself in order to get shelter that's what happened to me and i think i lost my sense of i don't know sense of totality by trying to uh describe who i am in society and that that for me that really put me off my path it put me off my experience what you've written down if you didn't believe it life can you know bob can tell his his name when they ask him yeah like whenever it is necessary for the life to find itself in a place or in a box or anywhere that is part of functioning that he will know which tram to take to go home and he will know how old he is but but you know it's like he brings the analogy about blue sea he says you check the water is not blue the water is clear it doesn't have any color but you look out there and it looks like it is blue it seems blue so the moment you actually have to function as a member of society as a person with nationality with name with form you actually even though you're not you you know you're not that you still put that costume you know it's just a costume but but you still put it on like you still know your name you still know your but but you don't believe that this is your identity yeah i mean maybe this happens you know maybe it was because i was a woman going for a house on her own um maybe and my meditation back then was on love it was the arising of love and in me and the experience of love which i had not experienced before in my childhood so the energy of love was coming and so what i got from the real estates was scrutiny and fear which then made me contract out of fear so that that was a you know the start of 10 years ago 10 years ago that's as dead as a door it is it is as dead as what's wrong with right now well it's awesome actually because i'm here with you all and you know what you know i know what you're talking about so it's a relief and yeah i have to come home i should have come back i should have come home sooner tell you what it did oh no i didn't do it life did it saying it's a relief and then i'm also hearing you're frustrated by society so no that was 10 years ago wasn't it yeah just 10 years ago yeah but i'm also hearing the frustration of well i have to do something i have to be something the energy to the energy was so refined that the material world was bothering me big time.

I didn't know what it was. And now though, what's happening? It's okay now. Melbourne's very grossly, which I was, I had an awakening on the Gold Coast and in Byron Bay. That's where it all happened. It's all, yeah. In the hinterland, do you? Yeah, that's right in the hinterland. So everything becomes formless, you know. From the formless suddenly to the form was shocking to me. It was, again the question was, what is this? What is this? How do I, how does the energy that I am go into form? You know, it was, and the energy didn't want to. But also, you know, I'm not the body and I'm not the mind, but there is a body here, there is a mind here.

What's it going to express you? Yeah. And I think that's what's going to happen. That's right. Pattern, shape and form. But emptiness is form and the form is emptiness. They're both empty. Yes. And that was experience. That was the most shocking part was the emptiness in the form. You know, that was shocking. Form is empty. That was. Scary. Very scary. And you know, I went on for years, you know, and it was like being on the precipice of, you know, a big. Yeah. And you're still alive. So can I ask if there's a concern, if there's a concern now, what is it? There's not a concern.

I'm simply describing certain experiences that were. That were? Unusual. Uh huh. Yeah. I do have that concern. Yeah. Do you come back to it as well? But when you come back, you're frightened that if you go there, you'll never. Yeah, well, that's the precedent that I've used to. Well, it's, yes. I mean, I've used it for a long time. Yeah. And I think that's the reason why I'm here. Yeah. I think that's the reason why I'm here. I mean, I'm where I'm from. So, so, yeah, I think it's the reason why I'm here. Yeah. And it is because of the relationship with the world. Yeah.

And the way of the world. Yeah. And if I were to ask, how do you say it, we'd have things that were. Yeah. That are, that are, that are horrible and that are bad, and then I would have problems with them. Because there's no understanding of the world, you know. Am I right? Yeah. Yeah. The world, you know, just. I mean, you're not that far away from that. But in the world of what you said, you said, you're not that far away from what you said. You're not that far away from the world. You need to function, you need to remember everyone. They're just asking whether they are going to be functioning if they transition to being an ocean instead of a wave.

So I say, look at Bob. He remembers most of the names. Forget certain names. He forgets certain names, but that's understandable. But yeah, functioning is really what is actually changing. You're losing a dream. You're losing an illusion. But the big change is you believed in Santa Claus as a child, and then you stopped believing it. Did the seeing or functioning change because of that? You're just dropping off a fiction. If you believe in UFO or life on Mars or Earth being flat, and then you wake up from it, does it really change the way you taste or you smell or you touch? It doesn't. It's a little bit more than that because you never identify yourself as the Santa Claus or the Earth.

You're not the flat Earth or anything. So it is actually a big transformation because the relating to yourself drops off. Like instead of seeing, oh, it's a rainy day, why is God doing it to me? You see, oh, it's a rainy day. Yeah, well, I like everywhere. Or I don't like whatever. It is what it is. There's two outcomes. Like either you have to turn your room and continue to get presents because you have a younger sibling, or you don't get Santa Claus anymore and you don't get presents, but you still don't believe in Santa Claus. So you're not going to get Santa Claus anymore.

You're going to have to get Santa Claus. So you're going to have to get Santa Claus. So you're going to have to get Santa Claus. You're going to have to get Santa Claus. You're going to have to get Santa Claus. You're going to have to get Santa Claus. Yeah, yeah. Can I? Yeah, yeah. Can I say something? A grieving process also has to be experienced. And I, there's something in understanding of non duality that somehow has bypassed the death of self in a grieving that I, that has to still come, that, oh, it's not true, but it's still who I've been. And I, and it's hard to just sort of say goodbye.

Definitely. It's a grieving, huh? It's a grieving. And I think sometimes in these conversations, not particularly these ones in this room, but there isn't space for, oh, fuck, I thought I was that person. Oh, yeah, you're telling me I don't exist, but there still has to come anger, whatever it is. Oh, just powerlessness. Yes, exactly. Utter powerlessness. But that's the matter of personality. Because, Bob, did you ever experience a grief of realizing that you are not a person? Have you ever experienced it? I experienced everything. Still experiencing. Yeah, yeah, but grief. I mean, yes, because, yes, and I know there are certain personalities that are actually really, really very sensitive to this part of, and others are not.

Could you use your Santa Claus analogy? Yeah. Well, the child's going to be in despair or anger or whatever it is. That process has to happen, but the truth will shine eventually. But there still has to be room, I believe, for grief, for human suffering or a letting go. Sure. But just to touch on that. Yeah, it depends on the person. What about the personality with the analogy with the kids? Every personality, like every kid, is going to react differently. Exactly, exactly. Yes, so that's why I suppose I'm trying to tune in. I mean, possibly that there might be some grief or something. Yeah. I'm not saying that's the case for you, but it might be there.

It's a bit of shock. Absolutely. It may be shock, it may be anger, it may be grief, or it may be absolutely blissful relief with nothing else. Well, the shock is that too. Or all of it, yeah. The grief is that too. Everything is that. Yeah. Patterning, shaping, informing, and expressing. And transient, constantly changing. Which is then nothingness. This is what? Mm-hmm. This is what? This is what? This is what? This is what? This is what? Yeah, it's just, yeah. I like Bob's analogy. Like you can peel it. Yeah. By little bit by little bit. Like Bob says, peel the whole fucking thing. Bob says, pull the whole thing out by the root.

Pull the whole thing out by the root. That's what I'm saying. That's right, all the way. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, that's not possible at all. It's inevitable for everyone, but the process of getting there is different for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I have, for myself, I have, you know, I have a lot of experience, and I have a lot of experience. Yeah. I had, for myself, I had absolutely zero grief about losing myself. Like, zero. I was so over selfing and the suffering. I was so over it. I welcomed death. I welcomed dying. Like, just welcomed it, you know. So it can be different, you know.

It totally can be different for everybody, how it kind of happens. But I was so over myself. So just, I was so willing to just let it go. Because it didn't work. Yeah, because you saw that eventually. The idea of losing self can be scary. I totally get that. Yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I guess. I guess there was just a lot of suffering in my life for a long time. And I don't recall. Maybe I did, but I don't recall ever going through a grieving process of, oh, what will I become? How will I function? I don't want to lose myself. I kind of, maybe I did.

I just don't recall it, you know. Because I was just in a state of suffering for years. Like, for years. And the primary suffering. The primary suffering that I was feeling was, I was feeling heartbroken. Because I wanted this. I wanted this so bad. And, you know, I had tastes of it along the way, which just blew me away. But just little kind of openings. But it was enough for me to then go into, I suppose it is, it's a different kind of grieving. Different kind of grieving. Yeah. I was. I was grieving for the, for love. I was grieving for that that I'd once experienced, if you like.

Yeah. And then I chased that. I chased it and I chased it and I chased, which keeps you stuck. I chased it and I chased it. Until eventually I just went, oh, this is, it's over. I just don't care anymore. It's chasing you. Yeah. And I, and I literally just kind of, it all just collapsed. But I did get to a point of. Yeah. I just don't care anymore, you know. But not a, but it was more, and Bob picked me up on it, which, which was great. What actually happened was I got to a place of being carefree. I was free of caring anymore, which was wonderful, you know.

Malcolm, you wanted to add something? Yeah. Well, like I mean, it's a, the whole manifestation continually functions dualistically in the pairs of offices. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can still lose something and be a grief there. But it's, where it before it might have persisted for days and weeks, and it was because it's regurgitated, brought back into existence. I've seen for what it is and realised, you know, it's certainly going to change. Everything is transient constantly and it'll change eventually. So the grief can still be there, come up, but it doesn't last very long now. But look, Bob, are you still grieving a conceptual image that you believed yourself?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Grieving, you know, the situations that are beautiful and complete. And conceptual image, which is always kind of inferior and insecure, why would you grieve that? No. There's nothing near. When you say there's nothing near, but the manifestation, day is, look, there's day and night out there in a manifestation. It's always vibrating conceptually in the pairs of offices. Yeah. But who's going to take it on board? What's your experience of death? You've got a conceptual image about it. You don't know what death is. Yeah. maybe pure consciousness or coming back to...

Well, you've had a taste of it. Yeah. Pure consciousness. How bad was it then? What was the experience then? You'd forgotten all about the death and losing it. It was like paint stripper. Paint stripper. Well, I meditated with a particular being who had a very strong energy and that energy really impacted my experience of life. It certainly expanded that feeling of derealisation which I'd had throughout my life. So the soul must have gone, OK, I'm on the right track here because I'm getting more of this, oh, I don't know what this is, what is this, kind of experience, you know. So I stuck with it, but it was very much an experience of disintegration and nisargadha experience.

It describes it in the book as a force hitting a building and the building disintegrates and I'm still here. Well, isn't that happening in the nature all the time? It is. Constantly changing. It is, but, you know, if it's... If you get to a period in your life where the space opens up, hey? There's that butt again. I better stop smoking then, hey? See, that's the mind, again, wants to carry... carry on and regurgitate. Like there's an old saying, and you won't like it when you hear it, a dog will always return to its vomit. Well, you've seen a dog, something that makes it sick, it'll come back and eat it up.

I haven't seen that, mate. Well, it is. It is a fact. It will always come back and eat it up. We're regurgitating these old thoughts again and going back and looking into them again when you don't have to. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. I don't know if anybody's going to see what they're doing. But also, I think it's a crucial point, whether we're actually afraid of dying or whether we are dreading the dying or whether we are grieving a potential loss, which is not really a loss, or whatever is happening, this is really life doing all of it.

It's really not our saying, okay, now I'm going to switch off that feeling and wake up. It can't happen this way. Because, so whatever shows up, whether it is anger or grief, or sadness or fear, or whatever shows up, it's just part of the landscape. And then if from there, the realization springs, good. If it doesn't, then also good. Then, you know, it's just not in our hands. So we can't really say it's better to feel or not to feel. Because we don't have any saying. It's just like we don't have any saying what sounds are going to appear outside. Because the environment will create, the sounds, the same environment create the thoughts and images in our head.

And they are also appearing regardless of our preferences or whatever. They're part of the functioning. Also, when it like to check, there's never ever anything proceeding, whatever pops up. Like never, there's no plan, there's no, everything comes totally up. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's spontaneity. That's, that's, what I love. What I love most about life is spontaneity. You know, I, it's just got to happen right now. Like, woo! You know, I can't make the plan or... Halfway to the loo. Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, take a stance there. You are the spontaneous thing. Yeah. Continually changing. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Yes. That's very helpful.

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. You've had taste of it often enough. It's brilliant. It took you for the ride of losing it for a moment, that experience, that dreadful experience of closing the heart in and that's, you know, that's well statistically can get people to the other side through hunking themselves because it's so, I mean, this is what I read in the books that the guy said that losing that sense of freedom and that sense of oneness and unity with life and being that spontaneity. Yeah. is so dreadful that if that ever happens, like the narrative self recreates itself, people just check out. That's how terrible it is to actually lose it.

And I can relate to it. I would not be able to function the old way with that high level of anxiety and self concern all the time. Worrying and filtering everything as relevant to me. I mean, who cares about me? There is no me. There is just life flowing. But I used to live like everyone else. No, no, no, this is my future. This is my past. This is my story. This is my problem. Those people are relating to me. And what do they think about me? That life is not a life. This is a torture. This is a crazy state of being. I mean, this is just a narrative that does it.

But having that off the picture and having that, oh my God, life is beautiful. Oh my gosh, it's so much space now to actually experience the senses, the seeing, the hearing, the life. The living. And now having that taken away, that would be probably, I don't know, the worst nightmare one could imagine. And I have no idea how I would be dealing with that as a body-mind. But you went through that ride. And now you're back home with a little bit of maybe few extra concepts of fears to look through. But you're so ready. Because yeah, look at you. You know that. So much like the noises in the background, you're not focusing.

What needs to be focused on is anyone who's not being right now. Anyone who's not conscious. Anyone who's unaware. No, you're being right now. And whether you're being in some past thought or some future thought or feeling or guilt or shame or whatever it's being, it's still, what's the basis it's taking place in? The being, knowing, and loving to be. And whatever it is that it's being, it's being. And what's appearing on it is the transient coming and going of pattern, shapes, and forms. Emptiness. Emptiness has never changed. What appears and disappears in it is not what you actually are. You are the cognizing emptiness itself.

Bring the butts in now. So if the narrative shows up, you just don't really take it seriously. Because it's just a sound, like a sound of the car passing or the tram driving. So now there is a narrative, but what about me? But there's no one to believe it. So you just kind of ignore it. It's not really that you ignore it. But this narrative, first of all, well, for me, it completely dropped regarding future and past. It just doesn't show up anymore. I used to be obsessive planner, constantly leaving in the next moment, next week, next year, whatever. It just completely disappeared. I don't know.

It just disappeared. But I'd imagine if there would be a thought now showing up, I don't know if that would be even noticed. But there are thoughts showing up about future. Like I have a couple of appointments tomorrow. And they are functioning thought. It's like the mind is actually serving the life right now, not the other way around. So the functioning future would show up and remind. I mean, the reminding goes as far that I put the alarm on the phone and it's forgotten again. So but the obsessiveness is gone. So if you actually see any thoughts that completely steal the show, the mind is following the thinking and has seen the future or past or imagination of relation or making a story about self or whatever, the easy way out is just to kind of wake up from the mind into the other senses.

Like open your eyes. Oh, OK. Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't see that. I didn't see this one before. A sense of hearing, not just hearing to the thinking, but oh, traffic. Oh, there is a background noise. There is like some sort of a white noise. There is always some sounds. And then the attention goes into what is here now, into the present moment. Or even feel the back. Feel your face. Feel the muscles. Or touch your lips. There is a touch. Or smell something. That brings you to the present, out of the mind. So the attention doesn't. It doesn't have limited amount of attention. The processing capacity is limited.

So if it processes whatever is here now, the less of the attention will go to the story. So even that is already waking up from the story about me into the reality that is happening, the functioning that is happening in the present moment. And that brings the relief. You're what works here. And it just pops up what's here if there's no meaning making happening. Being, for me, for about half a moment. And being here. Because hypervigilance always just brings the head back in all the time. But that could come up a lot. And it's something that could come up hundreds of times. Other times it might come up twice a day.

It works though, every time. It's a very brief, some minutes, but microsecond or whatever. It's the next memory is of nothing going on in the mind and the thought. And that's Claire's day. But it's not something that can be known. It's just like if the memory comes up to check, was there a hippo in the room ever since I've been in this room? And there's no memory of a hippo. And it's sort of a good guess that generally there would be a memory showing up. So I would say there probably has never been anything in the room when I've been here. But I can't really say that.

It's really just a memory of no hippo. And we kind of go on the understanding that probably means there wasn't. But there's no more. Well, there is. There's no more real than that. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. It's the same as I'm pretty sure there was no conceptualization happening in that moment before. It was just a memory of some imagery or something. So there's a mix. There's a mix of thoughts that goes on. Yeah? There's meaning that goes on throughout the course of the day. And then there's other thoughts that go on throughout the course of the day, which will say, I need to be here.

I need to be at this appointment. I now need to be doing this. Or I'm working on this project at work. Yeah? So there'll be those thoughts that are going on. And they're what Kat describes as functioning thoughts. They're things that pop in that move us around the place, which we're not choosing, by the way. They just happen. Yeah? But mixed with that is all the me-ing stuff that goes on throughout the course of the day. Yeah? And we feel that if the me drops, that all the functioning thoughts will drop as well. And they don't. Right. They don't. They're still a functioning. That's always been going on.

But in the middle of it, if you like, is this artificial notion of a me. Yeah? And you can be at work. You can be doing all sorts of stuff. And be completely consumed with me whilst you're at work or doing whatever it is that you're doing. So just imagine that that, just imagine the complete absence of that. Yeah. Completely gone. And then just functioning. And how freeing that would be. How open that would be. How peaceful that would be. Because the only thing that obstructed peace here was me-ing. The only thing. Because the me always felt inadequate. Always felt like it didn't fit. It was isolated.

It needed to get. It needed to attain. It needed to grab things to make it feel better or hold. It was. It was what was discussed before with drugs or whatever. Relationships, work, jobs, careers, status. Because there's not one there, it's a bottomless pit. Doesn't matter what you pour into it. Literally doesn't matter what you pour into that artificial me. It's not enough. Because it's not there. It just goes through. There'd be brief moments of, oh, great, I bought myself a car today. Brand new car. Brand new Merc. Brand new whatever. Rolls-Royce. Holden. Doesn't matter, it's a new car. Yeah. Well, this is great. You know, like, a week later, two weeks later, you're just driving it around like this 20-year-old.

You don't give a shit. It loses its, you know? My bike car I bought ten years ago and I still love it. It's brand new. It's brand new. Yeah. . And then even like, you know, in terms of like, you know, like-. You know what Terry's saying, thoughts are doing it, like he doesn't really mean that too because some patterns can then read a me into that aspect, free will into, oh the thoughts did it, you know, even that can be a bit free will-ish for some patterns, or me-ish. But ultimately really like, you probably know about that experiment where they did an experiment and they found the activity happened before it showed up in the brain, that the thoughts came, so they could just be, you know, it's more likely that they're just commentary.

And we can't even say that, and Terry and I have said that before. So even, some patterns wouldn't read me into that, but mine would probably be. And because there's no free will we shouldn't bother anyway, right? The problem only arises because we think we've got free will. Yeah. Or that we should have, yeah. Or we should have. Oh yeah. Free will. But that's it. Not crying. For me that's free will. But you actually see you don't, like you, and realize, if you like, use the word realize, yeah, you totally see that you don't, you know, like, yeah. And the obvious place to start with that is just what it is that floats through your head.

Because it's kind of that that dictates my me. Yeah. Yeah. And I can't stop it. So I guess the mantra is shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Don't touch that. You can't. You do it lovingly. You can't touch that. You can't. I know when I get lost in a loop of. Story. Yeah, a story of lack in particular. Yeah. You know, Terry just his one little phrase of there's nothing wrong with you. it sort of echoes to a part that's beyond me and that part knows it to be true. It's like that part's deep in a well, but those words are the thing that lift it from the well.

Because on some level, I know that there's no me, but the me struggling with that concept, it's the me that's thinking there's something wrong with me. And it doesn't exist. But that simple, because it's coming from such a place of knowing within itself, it's coming from truth, that truth's resonating with the truth. And that's the thing that lifts it out of the well. I think there's nothing wrong with you. It's an uncrippled phrase, an uncrippled phrase. Well, you know, there could be something wrong. I actually want to... I mean, if you think so. Because I was actually thinking when you were mentioning the grieving, the self, because I know you, and you always come from, that place of love and vulnerability, it kind of dawned on you that, you know, that sort of anxiety of losing the self is almost, it feels like, why would I kill that beautiful inner child?

It feels like, why would I want it to go? You know, that ego, that sensitive, vulnerable little part of me, it actually deserves a love and hug, not to kill it or tell them that it's false and unreal. And I totally agree with you. The best way to annihilate the ego, the ego is to love it to death. Because, you know, the state, if we come from complete love and acceptance of absolutely everything, you land right when Nisargadatta says nothing's wrong anymore. And that's the no self place. So you could actually love that part into reality, where it really becomes real. And Gary touched on it too, and he said, oh, it's a different form of grief.

It's not a grief of, the loss of an image of the self. It's the grieving of the loss of the self that actually is there. That's this, like, the heartbreak of, fuck, I'm not this, but I'm yearning for what is real. That is the grief from that. Yeah. Put it out there. Yeah, you put it out there. Wrong end of the way. Yeah. Well, I am being. I'm being the fear. I'm being the grief. I'm being the unhappiness. I'm being the hip replacement, the cropped knees. I'm being all of those. There never was a self or an entity, though there was believed to be one at one stage, a separate entity.

It's impossible for any separate entity or individual self to be there. Anyone negate their beingness? Anyone negate that? Everything is that. We know it. I am that. That. I am that beingness. I am that self. I am that whatever is coming up. There's a seeming self there, which there was many years ago. It was being that self. But there's nothing there anymore. But yet all these things still arise and still appear. And they will continue to pattern, shape and form. But that's all they are. Patterns, shapes and forms. Nama, rupa. Imaginary patterns, shapes and forms. But the being, knowing and loving to be is the constant.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's constant. Time's caught up with us. And I can't be anything other than that. Can you? Well, make sure he has seen that. No buts at all. I've started sitting with uncomfortable feelings. I've never really had a belief in free will. And it's just totally clear to me everything's spontaneous. When it comes up, to check, that's what it shows. So that's a pre-abiding awakening thing. Sure, here. And … so what did I start seeing? Pre-abiding. Pre-abiding. Everybody's blank. What comes up here? Oh yeah, so for here, it's about, and it's showing up now in its pure form, because other stuff has laid off or whatever.

But it's like, yeah, it's not dead or anything or anything like that, but it's sort of had that vision, but it's uncomfortable feelings. It's on an underground life supply that's been information instead of feeling, it's all oppression. So it's, yeah, just sitting with what it feels like in the body with that belief in there. And all the thoughts that come up are about, oh God, that's going to make me uncomfortable. That's going to, you know, oh God, that would be freezing if I don't have that accommodation. Or, you know, whatever it is, it's just constant reaction to something that's going to be uncomfortable in the future.

It's a spirit of future, isn't it? And now I'm sitting with them and they're like, oh, that actually feels really bad. Ooh, that's a weirdo over there. So, yeah. So I sat with it for a bit, you know, and then off the tally-land or something, you know, to distract. But, yeah, so in a way, people would say that's a psychological aspect. That's, you know, these non-duality bring the solution at meaninglessness of something quite quickly now. It comes out quite quickly, oh, that's just meaning, doesn't mean anything. However, the stuff coming in is far more powerful here than the solution, the non-dual side of it. It's the psychological side.

It's not just cleaning up according to the thing that comes in so often. But it can be sat with the relaxation that's happening. Like, all the way through the session I'm noticing my body's tensing in different ways to different things. And then relaxing in and then I thought, oh, my God, it's still doing that? Well, it's not really that much. It's probably just being noticed more. But, yeah, it's just how it unravels. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. Thank you. Thank you very much.