Sailor Bob and John Wheeler 19 02 2012

I could say your name? Yumi Joke Richard I'm Richard I'm Richard I'm Richard I'm Richard Denise Denise Peter Peter Sam Sam David David Gav Gav Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Chris Hmm, we all know each other now. I'll give you a bit of a preamble to sort of that. For those of you here, we don't teach you anything. And we don't tell you anything. What we do is point toward and ask you to look to where we're pointing to, to see for yourself. Because there's nothing here you're going to get, nothing anybody can give you. And we're talking about non-duality, or the non-conceptual presence awareness, just to this, nothing else.

And we talk in concepts. So again, anybody new needs to realise that the concepts are not the concepts themselves are not the introduction or the recognition of this. And you also realise if you're coming from some conceptual point of view you can pull what we say apart quite easily. Whatever we say, because it's all conceptual. So we ask you to learn, if you haven't learnt already, to listen. And when we talk about listening we're not saying head to head, we're not listening to what I'm saying and taking it into your head and trying to analyse it. I'm saying let it wash in, in what we call heart to heart.

When I'm talking about the heart I'm not talking about your physical heart or anything in your body. I'm talking about using the word heart as the core of beingness. Or they can use it as a symbol of spirit. And we talk about heart to heart, you know what heart to heart is. Already. Because how many times when you've heard somebody that you really felt towards heard what they were saying and you realised my heart opened up to them. And that's what we talk about heart to heart. And then there's a natural then there is communication. When it's head to head you're going to put your concepts against the concepts that are being spoken and nothing's going to penetrate.

But if it's heart to heart there's an openness. And that's the communication. And it mightn't be in the words. Because the words are concepts. And there will be a natural resonance there. A natural recognition of your innate true nature. We have John Wheeler with us here today. John is somebody that's come along and like a lot of others of you have recognised this. And it's resonated and he's got a a good grasp of it and speaks very clearly. And there are others in this room who have done the same. That's when here we just don't say it's only for the few which you'll hear in a lot of the traditions in a lot of the books and a lot of the so called teachers.

You've got to do this, that and that and take time and years to get there or understand it. We say it's everybody's right and everybody's natural state. If you like to open yourself and drop some of the conceptual beliefs you've held and kept there that have become the blockers that have stopped you. So John's very clear in this. And he'll give you a talk this morning. And there are others in this room too that could also do the same. So when he's finished with the talk if you've got any questions along these lines or anything like that just go ahead and ask him. So away we go.

Bill Angel. Okay. Yeah, I would just add that I think in the beginning you might hear a few pointers to essentially get you looking in the right direction. And you'll hear many different types of pointers. And if I start to talk about it or share my experience or my understanding I'll come out with a certain set of pointers and concepts that is how I would frame what is the essence of what Bob is pointing to. And I always often come back to the basic pointer that you hear quite a lot. That there is this nature of reality or truth that is accessible to us. And if we are curious to where that resides or how we would look at that or where we would find that.

We also often hear something to the effect of that is what you are or that's already what you are. So this natural state or reality gets pointed to. But in a practical way when you want to notice that or recognize that as an actual direct recognition where you look for that, where you access that is pointed to be precisely where you are because your natural being or natural state is is that reality that is being talked about. So that's a way of using pointers and some words and concepts to try to get us simply to look in the right direction and notice something in our experience.

Now once we have a grasp of that or basic sense of that then the concepts and the pointers can fall away and we are just in an immediate recognition of something that's not a concept that is present in our experience and that's really more what this is about. Not so much what the concept or the word is or how it's stated or who says it or anything like that. It's actually something that is being pointed to. So I think it's important to keep that in mind with any of these types of teachings and pointers. So we can go immediately into noticing what is the nature of what is present in our experience here right now that isn't framed by any concept.

And there's clearly something here. You know, each one of us is present, existing, aware and alive, conscious and whatever that is whatever that reality is if you notice that you'll see that that's not a word or an object or a pointer. It's not even a teaching. And there's really no particular teaching or school of thought that really can capture that or own that or, you know, kind of have the rights to that, so to speak. But still that natural being and knowing essence of what we are is actually present for all of us even right now in this moment. And I think what we find is that at the end of the day as we're looking at this resonating with it that that's that's what you recognize at the end in terms of where the pointers are pointing to.

So I would say just to encourage you to pause the concept pause the question, pause the mind trying to grasp some particular understanding and just simply relax and notice something very simple and available which is can be pointed to, so I could call it the fact of your being or that innate conscious presence that's here right now that's at the root of all of our natural functioning and seeing and knowing and thinking. And it's there prior to any description, word or label. And once you get that, once you resonate with that and realize that that's what we can notice that that's what's really being pointed to it just goes to an immediate recognition an immediate looking and seeing that indirect experience.

And it's quite interesting because what you will find is that a lot of those pointers that are used turn out to be someone attempting to describe what your natural being is. So just to give a flavor of a few things that I would say and encourage you also to just notice right now that there is that effortless natural giving of the given reality of your being here right now. And that's not an attainment and it's not even an awakening. It's not a liberation or some kind of spiritual state. It's actually simpler and prior to that and in looking at that and recognizing what that is you find that it's not troubled by questions and problems it's not divided from anything it's not searching for anything it's not limited or defective or anything like that.

So the amazing thing about this is when you follow that pointer and you actually examine in your experience to just simply be curious about what is the nature of what we are here you immediately come face to face with this obvious, undeniable fact of your true nature and it is already having all of those characteristics that we might have been searching for. So that can allow us to then appreciate some of these pointers but always knowing that the pointer is not what it is. But in seeing that distinction you can appreciate the pointers, you can enjoy the pointers and you can be in a meeting like this and hear this being pointed to and following the pointers but simultaneously actually directly recognizing as it's being discussed that reality of who you are.

And the beauty of it is it starts right now in our direct experience we simply care to recognize what's being pointed to and this is something that people I think miss is that what you find is that we're not really talking about an attainment. It's not a particular experience, it's not a particular moment, it's not a shift, it's not a penny dropping, nothing particularly needs to happen which is I think often in spirituality we often kind of subtly pick up that kind of idea that when's it going to happen, I'm going to be there and then you know somebody got it and somebody didn't get it and you're kind of just, subtly the mind is kind of projecting into the future, imagining that there's something that's going to happen to me and then this will be the case and it turns out to be, which is a wonderful understanding is that that's not the case actually.

And even some of the most kind of rarefied absolute types of teachings that you hear also turn out to be a little bit too complicated. So like we often hear awakening and then it seems like you know so and so got something at a certain time and so that would lead us to feel like you know maybe that could happen to me or something like that but that's all conceptual, that's all in the imaginary you know kind of conceptual picture in the mind because if you actually look in direct experience that awake, conscious, aware presence is actually already functioning, it's already there. It's already functioning, it's already completely clear and evident.

So there we were waiting for awakening or waiting for the shift or something to happen not actually noticing that the awakeness or the awareness or that reality was actually there with even out needing the shift or the awakening. And in seeing it like this the whole structure of spirituality and concepts kind of just glides out of the picture. Because you realize you don't need anything to be what you already are and all of those natural qualities are given by default in what's already present. This is the kind of thing that Bob pointed out to me and he shares about and I was able to listen to what he was saying and then just simply check it out and find the simplicity of the truth of that kind of, of the meaning of those pointers.

But at no time was there some exotic awakening or shift or moment or something like that because it's too complicated. So then those age old pointers about you are that and your mind is the Buddha and this is who we are then we recognize that well this is what they were trying to say. That you already are the truth of what you are. That you are that. And at that point the need for the pointers or to understand what it is and where is it and all that that whole thing is no longer necessary for who we are because there's that direct recognition for ourselves of the truth of what we are.

It's a simple appreciation and recognizing of something that as was pointed out to me once that one of the keys to it is that it's so incredibly simple. It's so totally basic and in a way so clear, so obvious that it's often we've just stepped over and missed the essence of it. So you'll hear a lot of these pointers today and if you really kind of follow what's being said it's pointing back again and again and again and again in various different ways to that same basic message. And you don't need a lot of pointers or a lot of meetings or a lot of time or a lot of you know chewing over it like that because all of that is still missing the simplicity of it.

Just one meeting like this or a discussion or a heart to heart talk or hearing one real direct pointer that resonates can in itself be quite sufficient you know quite enough for us to simply turn and notice that. So that's just one you know one attempt to try to you know point at this, share this. And then I think the purpose of a meeting like this is to one to hear others talk about it, to bring up any questions or doubts or observations so that you can really make sure that it feels clear and solid for yourself. So that's why the meetings go on. You said that at no time was there a shift.

So then you're speaking about what appeared. In your window of perception. But some people share that there was a jump or somehow and something was never the same. Yeah. Well they would have to, that's how they share. And you know they would have to explain or talk about what, how they're using that pointer in the context of today right here right now. That's more of a, what if kind of a theoretical thing. So the natural reality of what it's all about is here presently for all of us. And I would say that that's more of what we can be looking at and seeing and talking and asking about that rather than you know what somebody else would say.

Because no matter what anybody else says, even if it's Buddha or whoever, at the end of the day that sharing is only somebody's attempt to point. So there is an aspect of this where you kind of, you can't invest too much in the pointers or who said what or this or that. Because that takes us away into the complexity of overlooking something very, very simple. Like the natural being essence awareness that it's all about and that is just, is the clear meaning of this and really sets us free in the understanding of who we are is just like here for the taking. It's like completely available.

So I'd rather not talk about, you know, who somebody else said this and what about that because then it just becomes another set of, you know, I could say well maybe I think it's this and it was that and that and then we're off to the races again, you know, in the concept. So what's wrong with the undeniable fact of our being knowing essence that's here right now in clear view like that, you know, would be my way of approaching something like that. Because you often hear in different groups and in different discussions about who said what and, is it this and was it that and is it clear and is it that.

I mean, you know, it's kind of a natural thing that we do because we're used to trying to pin it down at the mental level. But that's going to miss the essence of it I think. So that, you know, looking back to what is here prior to even that question. You know, what's the nature of reality that's here right now for you, for me, before the question appears is how I would, you know, look at it. For me, I'm, in the last couple of years, I've just been looking at such subtle shifts and kind of realizing that because of the, perhaps because of the teachings, what we're all looking for is a discontinuity in our life, a jump.

And we do it all with television and with movies and special effects. I mean, if it's not a big enough special effect, they'll do it in Photoshop or have some kind of way to computerize, computer generated. And that just this life here and that one step at a time that we don't even perceive because it's just so subtle, it's just living, is not at all what we're defining as what we're looking for. And so then this whole idea of enlightenment is really a discontinuity in our minds until that discontinuity happens. We're lost souls. I mean, that's our definition in how we're going into this search.

And so then it's so easy just to trot all over the day by day living and just say, well, couldn't be there. That's what I was saying. I think that's really important to say and really, really hit that bell hard, you know, like the discontinuity is all your imagination. And if it happens, it happens, but it's happening right now, see, and because of that, you're lost. Yeah. Because you're thinking about it or something like that. That's perfectly beautifully said. That's another way of saying what I was saying is that there, you know, the mind itself creates the discontinuity by overlooking what's simple and obvious and already given.

That's the whole trick of it, the whole essence of it is we're looking for something, thinking something is going to happen that I need, but eventually it might dawn on us after, you know, a certain number of years of in that mode that it really hasn't fulfilled. And you might stop and think, well, wait a minute, maybe I am looking in the wrong direction. Maybe there's another approach. And then you might stumble into a meeting like this where at first blush it seems so simple. But this is, you know, this is a very like, you know, essence type of core, you know, message, but it's cutting right through the very root of that problem that you're describing.

Is it actually a shift or is it just a recognition? Recognize you had, it's been cognizant. It's been cognized all throughout your life at certain times and it was recognized. It's not a shift at all and you realize it was always so, even though it wasn't noticed. Another thing that comes to mind is to say like, okay, like, all right, the context of our being, we believe in things like the carrot and the stick, right? But we don't really say, hey, you already have the carrot. There is no carrot. And then if you want the stick, keep eating yourself. Oh. So the carrot is ingested already.

Yeah, like, yeah. So what you see is that the mind itself has set up the duality or the discontinuity in the very view that it's kind of adopted. And often we, that's the part that we miss. So we're kind of stepping over that and then trying to fulfill that view, not realizing that the assumption at the beginning of the quest of that has already built in a kind of a little bit of a misunderstanding. Because, you know, how many traditions and sages have said, you are what you're seeking or you are that or we already are that? They've said it over and over and over and over again in every culture, all of those types of ways of pointing.

And here, you know, each of us here, we all are. And they've been telling us all along that that's what it is. And yet we could be thinking, well, when's it going to happen to me? But, you know, the being or whatever is here, our true being, it doesn't even need to be a real being. It's just a being. It doesn't even need a shift. It's even simpler than that. And there's just a, it just gets pointed out and it's almost self-evident, something so simple that we seem to overlook that. And, yeah, so you don't need a shift to be what you are. You don't even need an awakening or a moment or you don't need to be anywhere special or anything like that.

And a little insight like that is, that just completely undermines the whole assumption at the root of, you know, the truth. Of what we might have been imagining. And then the simple meaning of the pointers that have been there all along suddenly, oh, that's what they were saying, you know. I mean, 20, 30 years ago I read somewhere, you are that or whatever. Your own being is that. And then I went off, well, yeah, that's great. There was even a resonance with that. But the mind flipped it into, I'd like to attain that and I want to get that, you know. And what do I need to do so that I can actually live that?

And I didn't see back then that there was already that. You know, I'd stepped into the concept. And this is one of the things that Bob helped me to see was, well, why are you doing that? Have a look and see for yourself what you actually are. And then you slip right out of the net, so to speak. And you realize you've never been in the net. That, oh, they were right all along. It's amazing. It reminds me of like I tried to check out the Christian church and many of the churches. And the way they really start when you really get into it is you've got to say, I'm a sinner and I need Jesus Christ.

And so we're all doing that right now because you are that. But we're saying, I'm not that. I'm going to attain that. And so we're just saying we're a sinner. And we're so used to it. I don't know whether it's from church or just is that the nature of man? He's just or the way we perceive is just like we're separate. Well, I often tell people we had an idea. Like, you know, in a traditional religious context that here I am. And then someday I'm going to get it. That's a basic model. You can doctor that up with all kinds of different concepts and, you know, different faiths and how they phrase it.

But the basic idea is I'm here. And then there's the wonderful state. Now, the funny thing is people don't realize you could take that model and move it into a song or a meeting or something like that. And people say, well, you know, I'm that, but I'm not there yet. And I still got to do that. And I still got to do this. And you take away the verbiage and you're basically just standing the same place you started. You're still thinking I'm here. And there's now this wonderful thing called enlightenment. So it's no different than where you started. So why do you want to go back into that same thing?

Just change the words. Why not, you know, kind of examine the assumption of the idea to start with it that I'm here and there's something amazing over there and see if that's even true. You know, what is that amazing thing over there is actually just a concept anyway, an assumption that there is something over there. But the actual reality of what's true in our experiences is what's actually here. And how far are you away from here, you know, right here, right now? We take on the belief that we're separate, we're a sinner and all this. But then if we look at the traditions, they all tell us we're one without a second.

There is no second. There is no other. So what happens to the sinner then? Or any other concept you've got about yourself for that matter? Let me ask if this is helpful. Because like somewhere in the beginning, you said, well, I'm a sinner. Like somewhere in the beginning, one of you said, okay, you're just here. You're just this presence. That's all it's, you know, you're what's perceiving is already here, this awareness. And just take a look for yourself. And at that time, I was just kind of feeling a real, I guess I had my eyes closed, but I was feeling this real blossoming in front of my eyes.

Like I had a strong feeling in my forehead and in my head. And so, I mean, because when you just say, you're just here. You're just here. You're just this presence. You're just this awareness. It seems kind of generic like, okay, what is that? But some traditions have you scan your body and say, well, what's happening in your navel? What's happening in your heart? What's happening in your throat? These are just things that are happening, right? They're not esoteric or they're not conceptual. But there's somebody's just guiding you to look at different parts of your body or see that feeling. How does that feel, right?

That's a good pointer, too, is it? Or not necessarily. Well, it is a pointer. And we probably have all tried different things like that. And I'm sure there's some benefit or some experience that could come out of that. But at the end of the day, you still are whatever you were before you started. What is happening there when you're saying you're feeling in your head? What is actually happening? It's just an aliveness, I think. Exactly. It's life itself. Right. It's not thoughts. It's just aliveness. Well, what must you be? Mustn't you be the life that's enabling it to happen? Yeah, I'm the aliveness, right? It's me.

It's me like in a feeling. It's not an entity that's alive. It's just that pure aliveness. Because you can't, you know, see me in your head, see me in your stomach, see me in all these other places. Maybe it is everywhere. You can't locate it in one particular part. Okay. I remember the other day someone, I was feeling something in my throat, a little tiny thing, and he says, is that a sadness? And all of a sudden, I just had this feeling like, oh. And then I thought, well, it must be, maybe it is, you know. So then he just led me to something which maybe is conceptual in a way.

I don't know where a sadness is locked in. But it felt like a sadness. But it maybe has conceptual roots. You've got to understand that thought, feeling, and emotion are one and the same thing, three different aspects of it. You can't burst into tears right now, but a sad thought might come up. What triggers that thought? You don't know. With that sad thought, it will be there for a while, then the feeling will come. That feeling will be there for a little while, then the emotion, then the tears will come. Now, we've done it so often, we've seemingly hypnotized ourselves because the emotion can be seemingly there straight away, not realizing that there's a subtle thought at the back of it all.

Right? So it's just that animating life essence, and it's translated into a thought, into a feeling, and the emotion. It's still only the life, which is not corrupted or contaminated by any of the thoughts, feelings, or emotions that go on in there. Life itself, as Ms. Agadir says, life is unafraid and free. It's not located anywhere. It's an animating essence that's patterning and functioning in the entire universe, cosmos. You know, yet, I mean, emotions come up, right? In that life, emotions come up. Right. Feelings come up. Exactly. And then, I don't know, we could say it two ways, like we've got to deal with it, one.

Or we could just say, well, we have the honor to express this life, right? And everything feels. Now, the emotions come up, as you say, but where are they recognized, or where are they related as emotions? Isn't it to a reference point somewhere? Or would it be just a pure feeling if it's not related to anything? It could just be pure feeling. You don't have to put an overlay on it and say where it came from. Well, that's what I'm saying. But that's the only way it can be anything other than the pureness, if it's related to something. That's the, relating to a believed in entity, that's the cause of separation, the division.

It's just as it is until that time. What it is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Is there a danger that if you say, well, look, I'm just this pure space and emotion comes up and it's just a... Yes, of course there's a danger if you say it. Who's saying that? Just talk to a thought. No, I'm saying, is there a danger that you're just... I mean, is there a danger that you have another thought that says, oh, I'm going to dismiss this? And then you just dismiss part of your life, like the feeling. Well, then understand who has the thought. Do you think a thought? Can you, as the believed in entity, think a thought?

Or do thoughts arise? Thoughts play around and thoughts disappear. Yeah, and they're a result in emotions also. Yeah. But is that only because it's related to it and to a believed in entity? See, in nature. The pairs of opposites are constantly functioning. But there's no reference point in nature. So, day is not fighting with night. Winter is not fighting with summer. The storm is not fighting with the calmness. Incoming tide doesn't fight with the outgoing tide. Each things will come up and there couldn't be any manifestations if they didn't arise or play around. But there's no relationship. With us, we've got this idea of the separate entity, the sinner, whatever you like to call it.

The constant conflict and resistance is going on. Resistance is conflict. Conflict is disease. That's going on with us all the time. Until it's recognized, we are that natural state ourselves. We are that same animating life energy that's patenting, shaping and forming this entire universe. Recognize that. I don't know where I'm trying to drive to, you know, like, because I can see, like, there's a point where, like, you just really see that there's this play going on. It's not me. And then, so then there's no interest in trying to root for one side or the other for the tide coming in or the tide going out.

Yeah. And then there's just no interest in, you know, you see the play and there it is. But at another time, I think we feel like, oh, I'm a pure being and we dismiss. In other words, I say there's no reason to attach to any of this play, but there's no reason to dismiss it either, is there? No. And to attach to it or dismiss it, you'd have to take a point of reference again. If it just comes and goes as in nature, it's not a problem. You wake for a certain amount of hours, then you'll fall asleep. You wake up again, fall asleep. If you've got some personal concern about it, I'm not sleeping or I'm not, then there's a problem.

It's naturally functioning just the same as that breath you're taking right now. You didn't say I've got to take that breath. That life essence, whatever we call it, that's the concept. It's doing everything. And Richard's never done a damn thing. He never likely did. Well, I'm not going to ask this question. I'm not going to ask this question either. No, but I think you're totally clear because it seems to me I remember two weeks ago and you were saying something like, now a good thought comes, now a hurtful thought comes. But you really express that there's no difference between them somehow. Not in that they're related or something.

Yeah. And even now, like I'm saying that seeing through the play of the tide coming in and the tide coming out, and it's not you, and then seeing the tide coming in and coming out, being troubled with it and dismissing it. I think that could be really clearly stated so that we don't have to dismiss and we don't have to attach. And if it is dismissed, it won't be you that's dismissing. That's the way the functioning is going. That's the way the functioning is going too. If it's, you know, what is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. It means it's neither attached to nor detached from. Neither accepted nor rejected.

No preference, no partiality, no comparison. So it comes up as a preference, leave that as it is. And there's a chance to move on. If it comes up as detachment, leave that as detachment. Leave it all as it is. And just as in nature it moves on by itself. Just the same as your next breath is happening right now. Your heart's expanding and contracting. All naturally and effortlessly. Cells are being replaced in your body right now. Not one or two, but hundreds of them. Each of those cells. Each cell is the fugitive of that life energy. As far as you were saying, leave it unmodified, uncorrected, you know, and attachment comes or whatever.

You know, you're saying that's all just coming and going of its own accord. But there is a strong pull to, you know, if you are attached to something or you want something like, there is that strong, I mean, I feel, experience, you know, a really strong pull towards getting in there and then I'm in there and then, you know, I sort of realize, oh, I'm in there again, you know. So I pull myself and something comes out of it. But I'm just wondering, you know, well, what is it that that's, that pull to be attached or to be, you know, whatever that experience is? Because just going back to what you were saying before about, talking about shifts, you know, I've had a couple of times where I've had really strong at the time, like years and years ago, before I did any, looked for any spiritual, like I wasn't on any sort of spiritual path, but where later on I recognized, oh, my mind had actually stopped.

Something had, something had spontaneously stopped of its own accord and it just went on for, that, that was a brief thing, but then it kind of, the experience of it, like I was just a very calm and peaceful and happy for quite a few months after that, both times that, that experience happened to me. So it felt like really, you know, really easy in that state to not be getting in there and worrying about this or worrying about that. But then when that state, you know, ended, well, I was, started thinking again, I suppose, is what happened, you know, then it was a lot harder to, to just be in that kind of what you say is the natural state.

Yeah, well, if you're trying, it's going to be hard. That's the trouble we have with an experience or something, or an insight or something like that. And we want to get it again. Not really, that's already dead and gone, leave it alone. But if you're totally open, that'll enable another one to come up. We're trying to get back to the, you know, some of us have visions and all these sort of things and a great insight. We think this is it, we've got to get that experience again. But forget about it, it's dead already. But be open and allow the next, whatever pulls you or takes you to the next one.

That life energy is constantly pulling at you. You know the one about holding, just breathe out right now and hold your breath out. Try, you've done that, haven't you? Hold it out as long as you can. And no matter how hard you try to hold it, you realise in a certain sense it'll be a pull to take your next breath. Now that's, you, it's not your mind that's doing that, not the believed in mental entity, because you're trying your hardest to keep, stop breathing. But it's that life essence itself that's causing that, pulling that pull to happen. So you're seeing the difference between intelligence, the pure intelligence, and the thinking.

It's another point towards seeing the difference between the pure intelligence and thinking. And if you pause a thought, when you pause a thought, you realise there's no thought going on, but you haven't disappeared. You haven't fallen apart. Heart's still beating, breathing's still going on, hair and fingernails growing. There's so much happening without a thought. Again, you've seen the difference between thinking and that natural pure intelligence that you are, that life essence. So you realise a thought can be, though it's seemingly self-destructive, with all the shit it puts on us, it can be a useful instrument also, because you as the entity are not thinking. Thinking's happening by itself also.

It's nice to notice sometimes we miss that if we look at our own experience, it's always revealing this teaching or this point of view is actually demonstrating moment by moment in our life, you know. So like you said very clearly, you said, well, there it was so simple, effortlessly, that state of being. And then you said, well, maybe it was just the thinking that reappeared. It might not have been the actual state or experience of that simplicity coming and going. We often interpret it that way, like something will be seen or that conceptualising might drop away for whatever reason. We might not even know why, but suddenly there's that simplicity there.

And exactly, like you were saying it very clearly, like that wasn't something you were trying to do or maintaining, it wasn't a kind of an effortful state, it was just there in all of its simplicity. That was your direct experience. And there it was, and that's the teaching, that's the pointing right there is saying, you know, that really isn't a maintenance state, it is not a production of the thought. And then, you know, as the conceptual interpretation might have come in, the reference point came in. But you actually knew that too, because that's what you said. You said maybe it was just the thinking appearing again.

Well, at the time, I had no understanding of it whatsoever, you know, and it just kind of came and went, and I didn't really, you know, it was sort of like, oh, that was good, but I really didn't kind of analyse it or think at that time what it was. It was only, it was probably only later, after I'd done some kind of meditation, and spiritual practice that I kind of thought that that's what it was. What I'm saying is right now, looking from this point of view, and kind of understanding this in a more direct way, our own experience was actually showing the truth even then, even if we did overlook it, because we didn't know any better, or it wasn't clear to us.

But just like if we had noticed that, if we had actually looked at that, there was the whole answer, the whole, you know, and then we'd come back into our immediate presence. So here we are right now, and those same basic principles are still going to be in our experience, demonstrating what's going on if we care to notice that. Because you know, the natural state of being what you are, even presently for us, is not a maintenance, it's not a struggle, it's not some effortful state. It is actually given for us right now. And the only thing that ever happens if we care to notice that is, you know, and even, the thing is, even the thoughts and feelings and emotions are playing through that too, and it's not altering anything.

You know, if you like look directly at an emotion or a thought, there's nothing right or wrong or divided or troublesome about simply an experience passing through this. And that's how we can see that in our experience even right now. So the natural state of who we are is here, and this functioning of life going through it, if we just simply look at it as it is, it's not problematic, it's not difficult, it's not a struggle, it's just a happening, it's just part of the totality. If the reference point or an idea appeared like, you know, I started to divide or label or, you know, maybe I'm not there, this is right, wrong, whatever, then you would feel the conceptual, you know, kind of duality kind of start to formulate with the arising of the concept.

But that's also demonstrating in our direct experience. So like the total truth of life, the truth of who you are is demonstrating, manifesting. The nature of reality, you know, being non-problematic moment by moment is also actually happening. And then if the concept or if the idea of separation appears and begins to grab, you know, or whatever like that, that's also showing right there, if we just care to, you know, notice it. So it's like that's why, you know, if you kind of tune into that, your direct experience, you don't need a scripture or a book or some kind of manual on how to do it or something like that because life itself is the scripture in the sense that it's actually showing you, you know, moment by moment these types of truths, these types of teaching.

And it was available, you know, back then. We just, we never stopped to notice it. But now we are noticing it. That's what I said earlier, you know, it's already been cognized many, many times through your life. We've had events like that. And all it needs to happen is to recognize now, not to try to get somewhere again, just recognize when that happened, there was very little conceptualizing going on. Pause the thought and you reckon there's no, see there's no conceptualizing going on if you pause the thought. And what's happening? All the rest of the functioning is going on, breathing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. And thinking is paused for a moment.

So you're not focused into the believed in entity anymore. You are noticing that life essence itself, that animating life essence. You know, that life essence is noticing what's going on, recognizing what's going on in the body. Because there's no you to notice it. Well, I think the problem is that I still believe in the entity and I think that's what's going on because, you know, it's easier said than done, you know, like in your day-to-day life when things come up, you know, I find that I'm still caught like off the edge, I mean I'm less caught and I'm able to step back more. But if there's some event going on that, you know, if it's around anxiety or something like that, then there's, you know, that still comes up and I can really feel a lot strong feeling and my head just going, you know, sort of a lot, you know, and I'm able to maybe if I can sit quietly, I'm able to sort of calm it down, but then it comes up again, calm it down, comes up again.

But left as it is, it'll calm down by itself if you're trying to calm it down. From the point of view I don't like this or I don't want it, leave it as it is. It's the very idea of trying to perpetuate it because we keep up the sense of separation from it. So you can pause a thought quite easily. Without the thought, you know, we see through something clearly like the story of the snake and the rope. A fellow stands out and steps out of his cabin, and in the dark night, it's been raining, he steps on a wet piece of rope and it rolls underneath his feet and he thinks he's trodden on a snake.

And immediately the sense of the serpent biting him, he fears, it's goose pimples, fear, hair stands on end, and all sorts of thoughts run through his mind. And somebody comes out and shines a torch on him. He says, look, it's only a piece of wet rope. There's immediate sense of relief in the mind. But the fear and the trembling don't die down straight away because they're a physical thing, and it's taken them a little bit longer to come up. And it'll take a little bit longer to come down. But the sense of relief that's not a snake, there is immediate in the mind. You've seen through it in the mind.

But the physical sensations haven't died down. But what do we do? Well, we say they're still there, and that perpetuates it. It's still there and it keeps going and keeps going in as long as we're seeing it still there. But if it's left as it is, it's going to die down also. It'll take a little bit longer, but leave it as it is and it'll go. That fear, trembling will die down. The goose pimples will go. The goose pimples, as you know, if you've had any physical sensation like that, we say, oh, no, we've got to get rid of this. There's immediate conflict comes up, resistance to it, and perpetuates and keeps it there.

I think it's a wonderful insight to notice that the thoughts and feelings and experiences that are coming through, they're not coming attached with a label that they're right or wrong or problematic or shouldn't be happening. It's very liberating to realize that it's not so much we're not being called upon to do something with the experience because that can bring a certain kind of a concept or attention with it. Again, it's more like coming back to immediate experience, like if we're just sitting here seeing and just simply noticing, just observing, you realize, well, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing to do with that. There's not some spiritual or psychological thing.

There's not some spiritual or psychological work or something. And it's just very non-problematic, right? And then realizing that if you kind of just get a taste of that and that carries through to the feeling and the thinking, that's just appearing, but if it's looked at directly, there's not a problem attached to it or a separation, that we might have missed that in the sense that there's this kind of wonderful sense of, oh, just kind of natural simplicity around realizing that this functioning of life is, nothing wrong with it. And then the truth of what we innately are at the deepest level, that's also here and available and very clear to our own experience, our own presence in the equation, and that's also not coming with a problematic label or anything like that.

So you start to notice that it was never your true nature and it was never just the appearances of life that ever was the problem. But the mind, out of just a basic misunderstanding, had turned around and began to label that and start to conceptualize about it. And that itself introduces that sense of the divine, that sense of the division. And what you see with that is if you look at those concepts, or you look at what the mind is doing, somewhere along the line there it is introduced into that equation, I am just a separate, miserable, limited person in this life. And what happens when we look at that is we can shine that light of looking right at the truth of that.

Is that really what you are? Or is that just an idea that's also appearing? And there can be an insight around, I mean, my experience of that was, is that right to that essence, that kind of core perspective in the mind is very helpful, because otherwise we might be trying to work it out and deal with it and fix it and respond to all these concepts and all that. But you take it right back to the essence and realizing the mind is somehow asserting or trying to tell us that this separation or defectiveness has appeared or something and that's what I am. And there can be just a direct looking at that and noticing is that really a true concept?

Is that really a true statement of what you are? And the way that you see that is coming back to the naturalness of the living moment and looking directly at your own experience and simply noticing whether that is a separate, defective, problematic person. And it's just a kind of an insight where you notice something that's not a proper definition of your true being. And that kind of just gets right to that root of the whole thing and just kind of takes away the bondage to the whole root of the whole issue. It's just kind of a, oh, I never was a problematic separate person to begin with.

That was just an idea that the mind had conceived but it was never really examined or kind of noticed. And here I've been going along all these years suffering and seeking and trying to work it out and trying to get this and get that. Why? Because there was that idea that somehow there was an idea of imperfection or separation. But at some point we get around to simply checking that out to see if that assumption. So you can kind of see what it's like if we look at that root idea and there's just that simple recognition on direct experience that that core assumption driving the whole production is not true.

And it's really, it's a stunning thing, it's an amazing thing. It's like the resolution of human suffering and troubles and worries and concepts and all these things that people get locked into. But this simple point, this simple kind of pointing is like the resolution. Of the very root of it. And the beauty of it is, even though it sounds simple and very direct, but it's very comprehensive and thorough because it's not just dealing with, you know, the particular, it's really dealing with the essence of what's at the very core of the root of the whole thing. You know, and just, and there's a power in that.

There's something very powerful when it's actually taken right at the root of it. Because, you know, I was just, I was sitting with Bob years ago and the basic idea I was getting at that point was, is that that belief in the entity is where all the questions and problems and doubts and worry and suffering comes from. Because as long as that's assumed as my identity, you have all the mind kind of spinning and generating all this stuff. But in the recognizing that that's not true, this, all of these things, are resolved. And it's kind of funny because it's not like you answer every question and work out every situation and you learn how to deal with everything.

But there's something at the root of it that is, is, is, is, is, is taken, is resolved very directly. And it's not, you know, it's just something we check out and notice and see the truth of that by just going on direct experience. So like right now, as we sit here without that thought, we're actually seeing the true experience right now prior to concept. And it's like marvelously simple. And it would only ever get complicated with a concept. And it's not even a concept of like, what do I do with the thoughts? Do I step back? How should I respond? Should I, you know? Because even that's a kind of a, a position in the mind.

It's like even before all that stuff, not even thinking about what I'm doing or what, how should I view it or anything like that. And another pointer that I always found very helpful in the early days when I used to come to see Bob was, he used to say that all conflict arises between me and the other. And he'd say, have a look at that me. Have a look at that me that you think you are. And that me cannot live in the moment. It can only live in the memory. And so, you know, the memory of myself is not who I am. The memory of myself is just another concept.

So actually, there is no me. So if I know there is no me, I know that the conflict can dissipate. So when I really clearly saw that, you know, and when one gets caught up sometimes in the story of this me that really doesn't exist, it's a really good way to just come back to, you know, what breathes me at night when that chatter is no longer there. What actually, like Bob was saying, what actually takes that next breath. You don't have to think about that. You don't actually have to think about that me that you are because actions will arise. Things will take place.

There is actually no doer. It's just oneness. Hope that helps. You said like you notice that your life is not problematic. But we have a definition that I'm a problem solver. The I that I think I am is a problem solver. And it's dependent on problems to be there in order to solve them. So then later you said, well, you'll notice that when you just see what's really here, that problem is resolved. But it's not resolved. It's just not created. So then we have a belief that things are going to get resolved. If we hold the right attitude, because it's like new age, right? If we have a right thoughts, the power of attraction and all that stuff.

And here we are coming from that. Also, I just think it's worthwhile saying this, that at least at a certain stage I did. And I think a lot of people might believe that if we just stay in presence, that our life will work out. But really, our old life that we created as problematic won't work out. It'll just dissolve. It'll just it won't be created anymore. Well, if you have the idea that now I'm going to stay in presence, you've got another problem on your hands. So it's not that. That's a misinterpretation. Like the mind can hear this stuff, even though it's so simple, it can wrap it back up into another problem for itself.

It's like you're saying, it's not, there's that root of the problem maker, you know, we're trying to get to the root of that. Because, you know, it's that notion of the problem maker keeps spinning. It'll spin, even if you get this point, or then there'll be another question out of this. So we are, you did say it very clearly in a sense, that there's a way of looking at this where you notice before the problem was created. But it's not actually, but I didn't say, okay, we're just going to ignore all of our problems and then, you know, go into this kind of aloof state and ignore life.

We're not, it's not just some kind of like temporary thing like that. But to really see with insight the nature of how the mind creates its own problem, and then noticing, that reality that's there prior to the creation of the problem. But it's not leaving you in the game with another task or another kind of position that you're supposed to maintain. Because that brings in, you know, if you hear something, for example, that I hear a lot is people would say, well, all I'm doing now is I'm just resting as awareness. And I can sense it right away and there's already a problem there. Because you got the problem maker, you got the person, and you got this thing called awareness, and then you got this thing of trying to rest in it.

And then maybe sometimes you do, maybe sometimes you don't. And that's a way that it's interesting because you would hear something like this, a pointing to what you are, which is just a simple communication. And then the mind could say, oh, all I'm going to do is I'm just going to try to rest in that. That would not be what we're saying. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying even before that idea that I would rest in awareness, which is a concept. Because at a verbal level, awareness as a word is a concept too. So as I said, you are awareness and just rest in it and that's the answer.

You know, in my years past, I've heard all those types of things and tried all those things. And to me, they weren't conclusive because it was still a conceptual overlooking. The problem maker position was still there. But there is something here right now that is outside of that structure. And all we do is just simply point to that. But it's not you recognizing that and it's not you doing something. And it's not saying, you know, now I'm going to... You know, because that just, you can probably feel and sense the conceptual nature of that. So that's the subtlety of this really because, you know, this non-duality type of message is actually not even that type of message.

But that reality that you are that's here that is prior to the creation of the problem can be pointed to. But without referring to an entity or an attainment or a you or a me or somebody doing something, but just a direct, you know. And then there's just a resonance with that and it's not a personal insight. It's not you, Richard, or me saying something and you hearing something. But it's just a kind of a immediate knowingness that's there of what you are. And that really does actually, it's not a denial of the problems of life and pushing everything away and then getting into another...

It's not even, it's not like that actually. But it's interesting, it's a good question in a sense because you could say, well, I'm the awareness and now that I'm awareness I can just ignore everything and not realize that it's just kind of a conceptual stand. That doesn't, that's not going to solve anything, just saying some non-dual concept which you hear often. But like to address like what was said just earlier in the earlier sharing, when I get caught up in day-to-day activity. Well, that's not a concept in a way, but maybe it's foundation is a concept. But it's somehow a belief or it comes as like a whole slog of emotions and attachments and pullings and pushings and exasperations, right?

And then that, and we can't just dismiss that and can't just say, well, now I'm going to stay in awareness. Yeah. But I think you're good. Yeah. And you can see that like, you know, like Bob, for example, wasn't saying that. There was no note of denial of life or pushing it away or trying to do some non-duality kind of pose. It wasn't really like that. But there is a call of an understanding, like a heartfelt noticing of the nature of how the mind creates. That whole structure, the thought, feeling and emotion, that whole package itself is kind of an expression of a core way in which the mind is viewing it.

But again, nobody would be saying, oh, I'm just going to stand in awareness and at least that's how I would look at it. Because I don't think that that, because that itself is conceptual and that I is actually still active, even in that statement, because you're saying I'm going to stand in awareness. So the whole structure of the reference point is actually, you know, I'm going to stand in awareness. I'm actually still going. Still, I mean, okay, like I just want to go back to like, okay, I'm tied up in my life, you know, just attacking me. In this moment, I'm having a life attack.

And, but some of that can be, some of that can, I can just realize that's not me and I just leave it. And some of it is just going to be unwound piece by piece, one step at a time, just in calmness. Something's going to do it, right? An action's going to happen. I'm going to walk up to my wife. I'm going to walk up to my boss and say, I resign. Somebody's going, you're going to have to say that, right? Or you're going to have, he'll say, okay, stay another month and train this guy. Or something, you know, it'll be piece by piece. Things will unwind, right?

And so we're not saying there's a hocus pocus or magic or, you know, maybe people are hoping for that, right, out there. That's how life goes, isn't it? It keeps flowing on. But when I say, is there an entity living that life? That's the point to see. That's the way it happens. And as I go throughout the day and thoughts come up, yeah, and the problem will resolve through those thoughts. But the problem of life itself has never resolved from that point of view because, you know, it can't. But that's what the mind is being utilized for. It's very useful to the mind. It's not something you have to discard.

It's a very useful instrument. When it's believed to be the entity, the me, it becomes self-destructive because it tells us we're not good enough, we're fearful, we're no self-esteem, we're unhappy, we're depressed. It's all, you know, because it's a vibration, a movement of energy, it vibrates. When it's utilized, this room was an idea in somebody's mind once. The heart on the wall was. And the people think I did that or I didn't. They couldn't have lifted a finger or laid a brick without that life essence. Just a thought. Just the same as this mind. You couldn't have a single thought without that life essence. Well, we think this mind is such a wonderful thing, but there's no such thing as mind.

Anybody show me your mind? There's no such thing apart from what we call thinking. We call that mind. And if you think you are the thinking, which particular thought are you? And the primary thought is that thought I am. So we've taken to believe we are that thought, I am. But I am is not much. So what we do, we add to that I am. Other concepts. I'm Bob Mastray, a good fellow, not so good. Other concepts, and I've formed a mental conceptual image of what I've learned myself to be. And the energy belief going into that makes it seem any concrete. And everything becomes relative to that image.

So all our problems are problems of relationship. That image is what we call the self-center or the ego or the reference point. Everything's related to that. And because it's a fiction, there's absolutely no duality and non-duality. We're trying to get to non-duality from a dualistic position. It can't happen, it never will happen, because there's no duality in the first place. What we're relating to as a dualistic position is only a total fiction, an erroneous belief we've taken on board. If you're not relating to that, what are you? You are life itself, which continually flows. Relating to the me of memory, you'd like pulling the bucket of water out of the river.

That bucket will become stagnant. What happens to the river? It continues on, going past sandy banks, down through rapids, through forests, through everywhere, over rocks and all the rest of it. And it's continually sparkling and living, living on. The bucket of water's still dead. All our problems are related to that fictitious me. And you see it as total fiction, you're not going to relate to it anymore. You're going to be life itself. Is it not possible to say that to assert that there is no duality is almost a reaffirmation of duality, because we're saying there is not something, and there is something else. There is the reality and then there's all this fictitiousness and appearances, and so there is not an I, and there is not the mind, and there is not this, and there is not that.

So we have these two realities then. What is real and what is not real, and therefore we create more duality, do we not? What is real? Is an appearance real? Is your shadow real? Has it got any substance to it? When you're talking about duality, the whole manifestation is appearance only. So it has no, it's nothing other than the intelligence energy vibrating to different patterns, shapes and forms. That's its reality. So it is real in its essence, but not how it patterns, shapes and forms. But as soon as we say not, aren't we creating a division? Can't it be this plus that? But that's also a concept.

In other words, you can try to, a pointer technically is a concept. But one thing you could kind of feel out is the way it's being used. Like, if Bob was giving a certain concept, if that pointer is understood, the conceptual issue dissolves, not leaving another concept to struggle with. So is what I say technically everything that I say? Is also a concept. So at a level of just a concept, you know, the confusing concept and the supposedly clear concept, just looking at them as language are both the same thing. So maybe if you just tune into the way in which it's being used. See, a concept can be used to generate concepts or generate more concepts.

But a pointer can actually be used to dissolve itself. Or to remove the other concept. So just keep that part in mind too. Don't just assume that because somebody gives a concept like there's no duality and non-duality. Don't just assume that that's just another concept and here we go again. We've got another belief system and more concepts in the mind. And what's the difference? Because, you know, if you just walk out the door with suddenly this new set of non-duality beliefs. Yes, technically we'd be in the same place that we started. Unless we're alive to what the meaning of that is. So the meaning isn't just to give you a bunch of new concepts.

Because the concept that it's... Anyway, I think you get the point that I'm making. But the concept as concept is not particularly useful or some great thing. The concept is not the freedom. But we're not using the concept to create a new concept. It's a very kind of artful way of using it to dismantle it. And then you're not actually left with any concept of non-duality or whether there's a me or not and all that. That part just drops out. You know, because what you are, what's naturally here isn't really defined by any of those positions. So if you're saying, well, aren't they both ideas and positions?

Yeah. I understand fully the value and it's been, you know, it's been an understanding that's been growing in me of the value is in what's being pointed to. You know. And not the point, not the pointers themselves. And at the same time, at the core, as you suggested, at the core of being able to do that is the dismantling of this self-reference point at the root of it all. And I think that's what I'm struggling with is because it's a removal of something. It's a removal of self. And as much as at the same time that what is growing in me is this increasing appreciation.

And seeing of the true essence, the true intelligence, you know, as it's being called. And the value of just keeping the focus on that and recognizing the over-identification that we have with self as opposed to that true essence and ourselves as a part of that rather than as the separate identity. I'm also wondering whether it's possible in the world. Yeah. Well, in the midst of this seeing and appreciation and being in this true self and intelligence, whether a part of that is also appreciating that it's possible for there to be a differentiated self which is not separate. Which is inseparable but still differentiated. And that that is almost seems at this stage to me even a greater embracing of the totality because nothing's being negated.

There is nothing separate. There never ever was. And you've got to recognize that even though it appears to be separate, there is nothing at all. There's one without a second. It's undue. Even the idea of one implies there could be other than one. That's why they put without a second on it. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, the good, the bad, the pleasant, the painful, all that in their essence, vibrating patterns of intelligence energy, taking different shapes, different forms, and they're all there. And I think it's a great thing. I think it's a great thing. I think it's a great thing. So it's not a big deal.

So it's a great thing. It's a great thing. It's a great thing. It's a great thing. It's a great thing. It's a great thing. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, the good, the bad, the pleasant, the painful, are all that in their essence. Vibrating patterns of intelligence energy, taking different shapes, different forms. But it's all can be broken down into that cognizing emptiness. But is inseparable the same as non-differentiated? Is not separate the same as no self? Is it the same to say there is no separate self as to say there is no self? Yes. I don't get what you're saying here. I guess that's what I'm struggling with.

Isn't it possible for there to be a self and still be not separate and inseparable? Well, if there is a self, it's only the one self, if you like. If you like to call it self. It's not personal. It's not a personal self. So... You can't get credit or blame for anything. I'm not even referring to credit or blame. I'm just saying you have to have a self to be differentiated. You know, you can call it a me or you can call it a whatever or whatever you call it. It's just, you know, it's just trying to pinpoint something from a me. It's just the mind trying to find another way out.

Well, I'm questioning... You're saying it's just that. And I'm hearing it as a removal of something from the totality. We're removing this differentiated self. I don't want to remember that. That's to me where it sounds like you're also getting stuck because it is non-duality. So it's a seeing through that entity. The entity still appears to be there, but it's seeing through it. So you're not removing it. You're not destroying it. You're not doing anything with it at all. You're letting it be there. Well, we're saying it doesn't exist. We're saying it doesn't exist. Yeah, that's right. Because it doesn't, but it still appears to, which is why Bob always says, you know, you try to get a bottle, you know, a bucket of blue water out of the ocean.

You know, it'll still appear to exist, but it's just the appearance. But it's not nihilistic. It's not then saying, oh, because that's not your reference point anymore because all you're doing is you're saying that that was a pseudo-reference point that you believed. It was a real reference point. I know you're restating that, but I'm not hearing the question being addressed so much as just restating of the statement. And this is what I'm, I mean, I understand that everyone here is pretty clear about that. For them, for myself, this is such an important root point that once, you know, once I guess that's, we come to terms with that, a lot of things become clearer.

How would you take this another way of, is that the, the negation of something means absorbing it into the totality? See, because I have this notion that I'm a separate self. There's this assumption that it exists apart. So Bob isn't, or I, or, you know, when we talk about whether that's true and all that, we're not asserting there is a duality. We're actually saying, is there a duality? Is there a separation? It's saying that that assumed separation, the assumed separation is not. And where does that leave you? If you actually non-verbally, experientially actually follow the intent of the pointer, it leaves you in the exact same thing that you're kind of trying to get to, which is the oneness in which nothing's excluded.

So it's kind of a paradox in a certain way. It sounds like a negation, but it's actually an inclusion. You know? It's kind of hard to, you know. So don't take the pointers as a, kind of maintaining, creating, dividing and doing something and then leaving us in some kind of stuck problematic state. The inclusion, yeah, I can relate to. I guess it's when the point, the language of the pointers uses exclusion language of it's not this. It does. It's not that. But it's a very valuable and meaningful and sometimes necessary way of talking about it. Somebody thinks, I am a separate self. And I am divided.

And I am limited. And I am not the totality. That's their idea. Right? So then the pointer says, well, that's not what you are. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But one way or another, that exclusive, you know, narrowing down on that as being the totality is exposed. So it's actually a total, you know, the mind thinks it's, it's actually, it's the complete thing that you're kind of striving for, which is the embrace of the totality. Through a kind of a negation of just a false idea. It's not a negation of a real thing. Nobody's negating anything. Nobody's kind of dividing anything, in my view. It's a negation of a false assumption.

And that's why it's, thinking about it doesn't work. It's more of an experience of what does it lead to as an experience. Because if you actually drop the notion of separation, the actual lived experience is the oneness. It does not leave you in duality with a problem to work out. That's why I'm saying the use of the pointer actually completely gets to the root of the problem. So don't, you know, so I'd rather, you know, just kind of follow the pointer experientially and check it out and make sure that you're seeing the intent of the pointer, instead of just immediately the mind comes in and wants to start you know, like Bob said in the beginning, trying to slice and dice and analyze the concept.

Because if you go that way without the experience, it'll go on forever. Because even if you, you know, because the mind can always create another theoretical problem. Yeah, but then there's this and then you said that and I think you meant that and what's the difference between these two words and this shade of meaning, this shade of meaning? I mean, there's just a point in that where you realize, well, where, huh? It's like, you know, where am I really getting with all that activity? But immediately come off it. Come off the concept. And there, and there it is. And it doesn't leave you stuck with all these metaphysical problems to work out because that's only the mind chewing on that stuff.

So therefore, if it's helpful, and I don't know whether it will be, but if, is it, is it just as possible to language the pointer for oneself as I am the totality. I am still, I am me. I am a unique vibrating pattern of energy. Um, I am a differentiated self in that regard, which is a part of this totality. Therefore the entire focus becomes on the experience and identification with the totality. But not necessarily using pointers of I am not this and I am not that. Just see something. You keep saying totality, totality, that's itself a concept. So don't just switch it for some new high flown concept.

It's the mind articulating the concept of totality and then trying to say, well, if I was more this concept, would it be better than this one? And I don't want to say I'm not, I want to say what I am, but it's still the mind basically conceptualizing. So what are you without any, without even the concept of totality? As the architect says, give yourself no name or no shape. Where does that lay me? No birth, no death, no beginning, no end. So can you see it like in a certain way just to notice it's like the mind, is fishing around for a new appropriate concept.

And then we hear somebody say something, say, well, God, there's kind of a potential problem with that one. Isn't it really this? Well, it's the pointer that I'm playing with, which in a sense we've, I guess, agreed that we are using concepts as pointers. Well, we're not playing with the pointers and chewing over them and tasting them and digesting them and the nuances. It's like, you know, follow the thing and then drop it, you know. If you think you're the totality, then follow that and then drop the idea that you're the totality and then see what's really here. And it's not the totality because that's just a notion.

But there is something that is without the concept. And all somebody is doing is pointing that positive and that negative language, this pointer, that pointer. It's not about the, the pointer is limited. But what is being pointed to is that limited. So just learn that lesson. Don't get, it's not, we're not sitting here philosophizing and getting into language and trying. To work it all out. There's still a little bit of the mind just kind of delighting in its own dividing, you know. It was a great saying. I don't know who said it, but the true philosophy is the end of all philosophy. The only value a pointer has is in the immediacy of recognizing the truth of what the pointer is pointing to.

And in that moment, the pointer loses its value. You don't need it anymore. And there are hundreds and thousands of pointers. You know, what is the sound of one hand clapping? What's wrong with it right now if you don't think about it? They're all pointing to the same thing, which is not a thing. It's no thing. Everything is awareness. It's not a matter of awareness of something. There's no entity that's aware of something. So everything is awareness. Self-aware. It is the totality. It is cosmic consciousness. If you like. And the idea that I'm separate is just an idea. It's all inclusive. What I've seen in the short time I've been here, our thoughts are not lost.

They're just misplaced. That's how I feel. They've just been what? Our thoughts are not lost. They're just misplaced. That's how I feel. The way it is. There seems to be this evolutionary aspect that this lady is talking about. Like one moment there's a personal eye created by the mind and the next minute, okay, the board is found, the thought is left, the presence you're talking about in concept has been left. All we are is this. So if you go back to concept, when you're actually beyond the body, purely in awareness, in some ethereal space or whatever you can put a word to, there's still a presence there.

There's still an eye there. There's still a witness there. It's not connected to a personal eye. So what I'm seeing here and what she's saying is right now she may be sitting in this personal eye. I may be sitting in this personal eye sitting here being Sam Noel Pierce. But that's just a fabric of an idea that the thoughts created. But also at the simultaneous same time, I am the greater self. You're looking for an entity. The entity is the oneness. It is the entire creation that created this room and that tram out there. Isn't that what's been said? Exactly. Perfect. And this is what the conversation is about.

But also the danger I'm seeing in what you're saying is that you have these concepts to actually explain the concept of the no concept presence that are basic assumptions that in themselves are problematic. And that's the difficulty of being a teacher. Or, you know, the no teacher. Well, every tool, every technology, every medicine, every, you know. And everything like that is also can be problematic or can be beneficial. And that's what I was trying to say is it's the it's how it's used. You know, the end result is beneficial, as you can see, if it's, you know, if there is an intention in the heart and the love and the oneness, if what's behind the pointer.

You know, if that's there, it's being used in that spirit, then it doesn't have to be destructive and it can be effective part of the sharing. But it taken in isolation. It is a limited, you know, kind of. It has the potential to be, you know, could be, you know, because it is limited because an idea is just one bounded small fragment of the totality. So there is no concept. Any even the car, like I was trying to say, the concept, the totality is also limited because that's just another concept, actually. So like so if somebody says, you know, I think I'm the one that I think I'm an individual.

And then somebody brings in this concept of, yeah, but you're the totality. So if you just shifted over to that and suddenly started going around. I'm thinking, well, now I'm the totality. It wouldn't be that liberating, actually. No, it's not. And this is what I'm seeing as a trap in a lot of people. Yeah. But if you if you if you initially went, well, I thought I was an individual. And now I see this notion of the totality. And then there's that kind of seeing that sees the limit of even that concept. And that's how there's a cancellation of the original and the secondary concept.

And then there's that thing that you're pointing to, which is what is here. Right now, that witness or the presence or the reality or whatever. And that doesn't need to be called the totality or given any particular label because it can't really be encompassed by even the highest non dual word. So we don't want to end up in these meetings with this new verbiage, no matter how glorious it sounds. I am the supreme consciousness in which all appears. And I am that and all that. And then just go spouting all that around. Because there's something actually more simple that that reality is there even before you had that idea.

Yeah. Absolutely. And that's and that's the wordless kind of simplistic, simple, non conceptual recognition. And just that nothing else. And then the language kind of stops around trying to just have to be it with the dead, you know, beat the dead horse. Once you once the meaning of the pointer is appreciated, then it's done its work and we're not left with the pointer. It's like once the medicine cures you, it flushes out of the system. Yeah. If the medicine cured. Your disease and the medicine stayed in your system. You'd be sick again. Well, this seems to be what's happening with a lot of people who read and blah and they take on the concept and they sit with it and they go, oh, I'm trying to find this because it said so.

This is what you do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah, he's away. And what's left? Perfect. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.