Nonduality with Sailor Bob, 14.04.2019. On fear of surrender...

Mary, Carl, Victor, Mike, Mike, Tony, Anna, Mike, Tony, Mel, Adrian, Tess, Terry, George, Tony, George, I don't know what to say, too many Tonys, too many Tonys, Tony, Tony, yeah. Okay, and Bob. You know, I was about to pass me what they call non-duality. People think it's a new idea or something like that. Look at all the basic texts, the basic scriptures, it's all based on one. Hebrews, the hero of Israel, the Lord thy God is one God, there's nothing other. Christianity is his Father, Son, Holy Spirit, whatever it is, you know. Or omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, three aspects in one. Muslims say there's no God but God, Allah is his name, again, no one.

So it's nothing new. Speak up. Speak up a little bit. A little. Again. Deep breath. There goes the lung. You've got another one, sir. Have a look at that, there is nothing new, new at all, anywhere. Like you say, I'm here, you're there. Where is here? It's there and there is here. Height? And depth? You look up at it, and when does it seem? It seems high? Or are you looking at it from the low point? When you're low, are you looking at it from the high point? Is it two? Good and bad? Pleasant and painful? Happy and sad? Loving and hating? It's the way the mind functions, dualistically, in the pairs of opposites.

There are two aspects of the one thing. I say no one-ended stick. Each stick has got two ends to it. No one-sided cord. No one-sided cord. It's all two things at the same time. There's never been anything other than the non-duality. One essence appearing, suppressing, patterning, shaping and forming is everything. But it's the labels we put on it, the words we've learnt that singly divide it. We divide it by the word. Good and bad, pleasant and painful. And every word we've ever spoken has been learnt. Picked up along the way. We weren't born with any words. Birth and death. Again, can there be birth without?

Can it be death without birth or birth without death? Pleasure or pain? Can it be pleasure without pain or pain without pleasure? It might be divided up to somewhere in between but it's still basically the one. Everything is that one. Nothing other than that. That's what it means to be recognised and they call it a cognising emptiness. Emptiness, not that we cognise emptiness but the emptiness itself is cognising. And they say that emptiness is form. Can the form be anything other than emptiness? Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. It's basically all that emptiness which is cognising or knowing. Pure knowing, the other name for knowing is intelligence, the activity of knowing.

It vibrates. It's a different pattern, shape and form. And all that vibration is a movement of energy. So it's what I call intelligence energy. The intelligence is an activity of something that's happening right now. Anyone who is unintelligent right now or is unintelligent naturally. And isn't the knowing a vibration, a movement of energy? It's not a static thing. The static thing would be the knowing but it's knowing. It's all that knowing is. And it needs to happen to investigate that we've never left that oneness. We've taken ourselves to be separate or an individual through the learning of words. And we know word is the real.

The word water is not water. The word fire is not fire. The word I is not what you are. Or the word me, I or me is not what you actually are. They're labels. We're put upon it but seemingly divided by the word. And when you say the word is not real, what are you left with? Without the word. What can you say without the word? You can't say anything at all. But have you stopped breathing? Have your heart stopped beating? Have your hair and your fingers not stopped growing? Have your food stopped being digested? Your soul stopped being replaced? The functioning is going on naturally and spontaneously.

Is it any different out there in nature? Earth is rolling around the sun. Seasons are coming and going. Tides are coming in and out. All sorts of things are going on out there. Planets are moving around us. Just like the Earth is rolling around the sun. Tsunamis are coming. Volcanoes are imploding, exploding. There could be no manifestation whatsoever if it didn't vibrate into related opposites. And the manifestation they call Maya, a seeming happening, a phenomenal manifestation. And the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. It is appearing constantly. And that appearing is constantly transient, constantly changing. But it hasn't left its true nature whatsoever.

Now looking at that, you realise you're never out of it. Are you going to have any investment in trying to become something? Anyone who is not being right now, and as being, did it have a start? Did it have a beginning? You can't remember any beginning. You can't remember your birth. Will you remember your death? You have to remember it, because mind is not there. Sentience is not there. Livingness is not there. There's still nothing other than that same intelligence energy that through this pattern we call the human pattern or form, to divide it, seemingly divide it, and the capacity of reasoning is there. Otherwise, in its natural state, it would be that basic space which everything appears in, and silence and the stillness.

That would be the screen, and have a look at it and see that is the screen in which everything appears on. Can you postulate or think of anything outside of space? What would it be in? Could there be any sound if it didn't come from silence? And what does it appear in? Take your musical notes, your voice, the sound, all these things are coming from the one essence which seemingly divides, but never has, never will, never could. While we take on the idea of a separate entity, we're stuck in that pattern, and what does it do? It brings about all this psychological suffering, fear, anxiety, stress, guilt, shame, remorse.

And I say I can never put it, you know, because when I know I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I know I am everything, that is love. And between those two, the vibration, the livingness goes on. And Maya Baba had a book out once, The Everything and the Nothing. The everything is the nothing, and the nothing is the everything. They're not separate at all. But it's the idea and sense of separation that is cause of all our fear, anxiety, stress, guilt, shame, remorse, hate, jealousy, envy. All these come about because we take the stance we are an individual, a person. And even the word person comes from persona, the mask, pointing out again that we've got this mask, or conceptual image, we've added onto this idea of I.

Anyone who doesn't say I, we've added all sorts of other concepts and get lost in the conceptual idea and image. Everything and the nothing. One and the same thing. Light, the depth, the one and the same thing. I've read it all. All this before. Look at these things and see for yourself. See the simplicity of it. Nothing's simpler than one, and it's not even the one. The non-jewel. One without a second, that's what they say. That without a second, what's further to be a second? There has to be the one. There's not two. Leave it in this, as they say, that it rests in its uncontrived singularity.

A singularity. Not contrived and concepts formed around it, singularly divided, separated. There is no separation whatsoever. Though it certainly appears to be so. But as I say, the appearance is like the water in the mirror. It seems to be so. Like the blueness in the sea, which seems to be so. Blueness in the sky, which seems to be so. The rainbow. The snake in the room. All the different metaphors I put on it. That appear to be the real. But if there is nothing separate, you must be, and can only and ever be, the real. The actual. All these same things around you are nothing but the real.

Pattern, shape and form broken down into no thing. In the dog chin they call it body, voice and mind. The body is instrument, the voice expects it, presses through, and the mind is the essence, or which discriminates it. It's all discriminated into these vibrations or thought patterns. So we say it starts in the fact that you already are that. Re-colonising that I am that. And where, or what are you going to fix on and stay with that when you think it's all transient? It's all a constant changing vibration. Nothing solid or substantial or static about it whatsoever. And it's ever fresh, ever new. Always fresh and new.

Always beginningness. It's a beginningness. A beginning. A beginningness beginning. And an endless end. It's the eternal. Eternity has no beginning and no end. It's not as we think it is. When the world began at the big bang so many million years ago and all of a sudden. Anything that has a beginning will have an end. It's now beginning. It's beginning right now. Can you put an ending in? Because even as you say it's beginning, it's already ending. And beginning again. It's spontaneous. It's all spontaneous. All ever fresh and new. You recognise the transient. The change is seeing it right now. The change is going on.

But instead of trying to hold it together because we think this one is better than the next one, we want to hang on to this. So we resist it from going. And the resistance is conflict. We're in conflict. We struggle with it then. Trying to keep it there. Not realising that no matter how much we try to hang to it, it is transient. It's going to change anyway. Like your body. You haven't got the same body you walked into this room with. You might think you have. There's thousands of cells working away into right now. Breaking it down. Replacing it. All over somebody. And it's changing constantly.

You don't see it in this immediacy. But if you ever look back to that body what was like ten years ago, you'll see the change in it. It's not the same. Or when you were a little child. These things need to be investigated and looked at. And where are you going to stay then? How long are you going to stay in it? When we resist it. And resistance is conflict. And the conflict makes you uneasy, anxious, fearful. Something comes up and you don't like. Again, we try to get rid of it. Resist it again. That's what's always going on in our life. Resistance, conflict and uneasiness.

When, as I say, you let it rest in some contrived singularity, you're not struggling with it. Where's the conflict going to be? The uneasiness and disease going to be. And if they come up and they're not fixated on it, not relieved anymore, you're given a chance to move on. If you're fixated on something and you're trying to keep it there, stop the transience from happening. It's seemingly ceasing the change. Or trying to cease the change. And it's a struggle. And then that struggle brings about the fear, the anxiety. But let it happen. The earth is rolling around the sun right now. It's not in conflict with anything.

The sun is not shining of itself. It's not in conflict with anything. It appears in its light. And the darkness doesn't know light. The darkness is the absence of light. The light doesn't know darkness. You see, the darkness is the absence of light. The light is the absence of darkness. Neither one knows each other. They're not the constant. They keep changing. So it's relating to this conceptual image. We need to look at this, this conceptual image or mask we've got. I'm Bob the Australian. The good fellow, not so good. I've had a traumatic childhood, a drama, this happened to me, that happened to me. Fixating on those old concepts.

Keeping them there. Not willing to move away or change them or let them go. Let them rest or die away as they will do if they're not fixated on what kept there. We cling to them and suffer accordingly. That's all that suffering is. It's what they call cause and effect. And when you recognise this conceptual image you have about yourself as the cause, me, is the cause of all your psychological self-being, then just investigate and ask yourself the simple question, can there be an effect or cause if I'm not relating to this mental image? Be in effect without the cause. Well there can't be an effect if you're not relating it to the cause.

So if you're not relating things to the effect, to the cause, me, where can the effect lodge? It'll change certainly, but who's taking on the, is the cause, is not taking on the effect, the lodge? That's all that so-called karma is, is cause and effect. If I'm not relating to the cause there can't be an effect. What's happened to karma? It's a concept we've got about karma and belief in it. We know we're causing karma. Cause the cause in karma if you believe in the cause. You see the cause is a fiction, where is it? Investigate these things, see for yourself, that's all I can say.

Look at this conceptual image you've taken on board. I'm Bob, the Australian, the good fella, I don't like this, I don't like that, I'm unhappy, I'm sad. All concepts, all mental words we've learnt, we've picked up the word along the way. Every word you've ever spoken has been learnt or acquired. And the words are not the thing. Drink the word water if you can. Let the word fire burn yourself with it or cook with it if you can. And you look at this eye on me and see there's nothing there that is actually substantial or solid. Now you look at that, investigate it. Everybody's seeing right now.

Everybody's hearing right now, isn't that a fact? You're not saying I'm going to start seeing right now, I'm going to start hearing. It's there. It's naturally and effortlessly there. But when we isolated and said I am hearing or I am seeing. Well look at that. You're seeing and you're hearing. But ask yourself this, doesn't my eye tell me I see? My physical eye, does that say look at this Bob and look at that? It doesn't. It can't say anything at all. My eye has never ever said a thing to me. Never spoken a word to me. It can't, it's got no words. It's the instrument with which the seeing is happening.

How can it say that? Can't do anything but have those things reflecting in it, whatever. But it's translated by the thought, I see. So the seeing is happening, it's a clear seeing right now. It's translated by the thought, I see. That's no longer clear or empty. It's corrupted by the thought, I see. Because we think it's this conceptual image, me, Bob, this, trying to see. Can the thought, I see, actually see? Can the thought see? That's a conceptual image. Touch your eyes and prove to yourself. Look around the room and see what you can see, what things you can see in this room with your eyes closed.

You see nothing but the blackness behind your eyelids. A couple of little pieces of skin and blood are out in the world for you. It can be revealed. That thought, I see. Ask yourself, can that thought, I see, actually see? Can the thought see? There's a thought, I see. Can't see. But I am aware. Is that your awareness? Are you aware right now? You realise you've been unaware all along. Did you have to say, I've got to find this awareness? Or some concepts, I don't know, we think we've got to understand or recognise this awareness, and it's conscious. Realise it's constantly there. It's labels we put on it, discriminating it, making it seem different.

You're not aware, you must be aware. You're not unconscious, you must be conscious. If you're not unknowing, you must be knowing. You're not all these other things. I'm not thinking I can't. It's gone. It's gone. Anyway, recognise that. The thought I see, can't see. The thought I hear, can't hear. The thought I'm aware of, not your awareness. The thought I choose is not the choice maker. It's all being discriminated by this thought. And the thought, or the word, is not the thing. It's just labels. We fixate on the label, take ourselves to be the label, this body, mind, entity, the label, and we fixate on that.

well, we've taken ourselves to be that, functioning from that belief. We are the individual, we are the person, we are the separate entity, we are the ego. That's what we've learned, another concept. See what that means in the dictionary. It means an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. We've got this capacity of reasoning which is very useful. We've taken on the idea that we're one with this person without questioning it or reasoning it. Our parents told us, our schools and society reinforce it. We've never investigated it. When we come and start looking at this thing called non-duality or oneness or whatever you like to call it, then you start to investigate these things we've believed in.

If it's not the actual unquestioned acceptance of the absence of reason, acceptance of an alleged fact. These facts are positive knowledge or proof. See what will stand up to the investigation when you question it. The matter of the truth, instead of what we've been doing all our lives, and what we've been taught to do, to look outside, to question, to acquire, to accumulate, to add to, to amass, add things to us because we've taken on this idea we're separate. We think we've got to become whole or make it whole or complete. Not recognising our reason which will always be there. Being whole and complete. And discarding the things or the beliefs, concepts, ideas and images of stubbornness and recognise that until it's able to rest in its uncontrived singularity.

Other than that, that's the higher fact. I have that, this is that, everything is that. We know that in our language because we put labels on the that-ness. That's a chair, that's a carpet, that's your chair. That's a carpet, that's you, that's me. That's the tree, that's the flower. They're all labels we put on that because we say that. And the being-ness, that's being, the chair, that's being the carpet, that's being the tree, that's being a flower. Anyone can negate your being-ness right now. But we divide it and separate it. We call God the Supreme Being. We call ourselves a human being. We've separated. Take a label off Supreme, take a label here.

You're left with being-ness. And it's the label that discriminates. It tells you the same thing. When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to be. You're seeing things more in their actuality, more in their reality. You're understanding them more. In the clarity, there's less conceptualising going on. And when the clouds are not in the sky, there's plenty of clarity there. The clouds seemingly block it and obscure it. In that basic essence that you are, there's plenty. It's all clarity. What's clouding it? What's the clouds we call it? The cloud of thought. We're blocking them with the cloud of thought. Now, no thought's fixed in the sky.

Have a look at that. No cloud, I should say, fixed in the sky. No cloud attached to the sky that's seemingly blocking the sun. They move. They're transient. They move on. Some might hang around for a little while longer than others, and they certainly move. Well, look at that. Is there any thought fixed in your head anywhere? Is there any thought fixed in your head? Or are they constantly changing? Constantly changing, come and go. You might recall a similar thought you had before. Instead of seeing it fresh in you, you're taking it out of the old and putting the old beliefs or meaning into it and regurgitating it and keeping it there.

Where bondage ever is, the cage of concepts, the bondage of thought, put that cage away, and the door to the cage is in the cage itself. The way out of thought is in the thought itself. Stop the thought. Pause the thought. And you can't do that, but it'll happen when you can't put any energy of belief into the thought as being substantial, solid and real. That's all I point to. There's never been anything but the non-dual one without a second. That is the standard. You'll be able to express it better than I am this morning. I'm not expressing it very well. Tell us. Others might understand it or recognise it.

Tell us where you're at or where you're going and if you've got any questions. Question them. Bring them out. Bring them to light. It might enable you to recognise, recognise and see for yourself a bit more if the things, the thoughts, the questions that are blocking it are seemingly blocking. The only way is if you come out after a little bit of an investigation, a little bit of questioning, a little bit of looking into things and to see where it comes completely not you. Nobody's talking to you. He's talking to you though. So away you go. Get into it. He's ordering us around. He's telling me what to do.

He was saying I've had enough. Pick up the mic. On a number of times I felt like I'm on the verge of You're close to the mouth I suppose. I'm on the verge of letting go of self. Fear jumps in. The fear of either losing my mind or disappearing totally. It jumps between the two. Death or whether you just disappear totally or losing your mind. And some of the fears are around conceptual self has attachment to relationships. And when I felt like I'm on the verge of letting go it's like I'm letting go of that whole story including all of the relationships. Yeah. So you're letting go of all the people you love in your life and you have to let all of that go.

And such fear keeps me from going that extra step. Well there's a saying it's very good if you look at it to do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain. And when you think you're going to lose all your relationships that'll be the best thing that could ever happen to you. Because relationship is duality. It'll be a natural merging with things coming together with things that won't be the division there. Every problem is a problem of relationship. Relativity. Relationship is dualism. And when you look into the fear it's a very hard thing to do. One of the hardest things you'll ever do.

I've spoken to a lot of people they won't, they're frightened to look there. Take the bull by the horns and really look into it. What have you got to lose? You can imagine and conceptualise all sorts of things but if you let go of it you know, you'll find and what wasn't there that needs to be there will come about. Because it's not, you know, not fear. The concept of fear is keeping the natural state from being there. Because we've taken on this conceptual belief. We are a separate entity. That's what needs to be questioned. So once you've let go there aren't really special relationships because you feel the same about everyone as you do about say, a wife or...

you know, a best friend or... Well, if you're one with them then it's a closer relationship. Others might be seemingly a bit further away but it's still all the one. And as I say, here and there. There seems a long way away. And if you're there, you'll be here. When you're here, you'll be there. And imagine a relationship without you there mucking it up all the time. Also, another aspect, if you look at the world of nature, at the animals, you know, they don't have the ego or any sort of sense of separation. And if you look at the cat and her kittens, she will still treat them in a way the body is designed to treat the ones you are responsible for.

So a lot of people have fears like this that, oh, am I going to still love my wife? I'm going to still take care of my children. Well, if you look out in nature, it's highly likely that you will. Although the other question, and this is, I think, this is what was actually helping me. When that question of fear, of losing everything you know and really stepping into complete unknown, if you focus on the fear, you're going to just regurgitate the fear. How about shifting the attention slightly and focus on this longing of the heart, this desire, this desire to find out, this love for freedom.

Because if you really put all the attention on the really desiring that freedom, because it's the last desire, really, and that kind of makes the fear bearable and that makes fear, it makes everything you do, like it brings you the courage. It puts the fear on the background because that longing of the heart is the first pull. It doesn't really matter that you're going to lose everything. If you all for that ultimate freedom from that narrative self or that commentator or that self-obsession, and that freedom is the most important thing in your life, then the fear of losing it is not that big deal anymore.

And then yes, as Bob says, what have you got to lose? You're just going to lose the self-obsession. You're just going to lose the nonsense, the imagination about the future and the past, which is not real in the first place anyway. It's just a chatter. It's just a noise. We're all frightened of letting go. There's an old saying, you know, the fella falls over the cliff and he's hanging on by the hands. And he says, Help, help, help. And a voice comes to him. He says, Is there anybody up there? And the voice comes to him, Help, yes. He says, What do you want? He says, What'll I do?

What'll I do? He says, Let go. And he looks at me, Anybody else up there? And the same happened with me when this happened to me in the ashram. I was over there in the ashram. I took this understanding and everything dropped away. And I was like you. There was nothing to do, nothing to be, nowhere to go, nothing to see. I thought, Well, I'll be here for the rest of my life. You know, I stood up for my wife to go over there. And there was nothing there. And I thought, All I can do is see what happens. My wife came back. She came over.

And we got back together again. And it moved me away from there. And I came back here and worked again. And all sorts of things have happened for me. We lost everything a couple of times. And letting it go, letting it go, it writes a song. Just like in nature. All that struggle. And, you know, if I'd been in the old way, I'd have shot myself many times of the things that happened there. And I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think.

I got resowned. I got some new qualities. I got a good sense of life. It drove me onto new things. So, you know, It keeps me alive. It just keeps me alive. You'd say, what's next? What's next? Just the same as it's breaking right down, right now. Parkinson's happening. Knees are going. You'd take her down. DADDY BUR�ו You'd look at it again. The fear of death has even disappeared, you know, just before it lost its handle. everything just as I was in nature it comes and goes I love that acronym about fear false evidence appearing real because it's all related to a story about yourself so but you do feel the fear and do it anyway because I love that thing it says actually in the big book it says you're watching it from another bank now you're watching it from another bank you know you're not that but it still comes up and um yeah I just think that's a useful pointer I had fear exactly like you all related when you said that when you've got a family I was the same and then come to the stage and I thought I have to take that leap because I won that so badly and I didn't and when and I can tell you that now that I have more love more compassion for my kids and others it's more to gain than to lose beautiful yeah it's usually the opposite to what we think yeah it's going to happen yeah it's just the fear of losing ourselves yeah you know it's not about it's not necessarily about letting go of family or letting go of your kids or your wife or you know people that you you're close to that's what our thing is thinking tells us which is usually always wrong yeah it's letting go of self it's letting go of the notion of this entity this this me that believes it's here it's just that seeing that letting go of that who is there to let go of that nobody so it's either going to happen or not but it just happens by itself there's no there's no you there Paul there's no you there Paul there's no you there Paul in the strings there's no you there even even your question um you know I have fear around blah blah blah blah there's no Michael there asking that question otherwise this is what's being talked about here what what Bob talked about in his spiel is not true totally not true the whole idea of non-duality is there is no separate individual me this it's it's not but the problem is we take credit for everything that comes out of our mouth even if it's a question and we're sitting in this room and we're you know firing questions at Bob we still think it's me sitting here asking Bob that question and it's not the question just arises then we immediately take credit for it but it's me asking that question or it's me experiencing fear around letting go of bị question or it's me experiencing fear around letting go it's not all that just just like thoughts arise whatever comes out of your mouth it just arises it just happens it's about witnessing and being aware of that fact rather than assuming there's a me here that i've got to let go of or there's a me here that you know needs to be seen or a me here that needs to gain or have or grasp or or even understand there's not one there and that's literal it's literal it's it's that's not even a pointer that's a fact there isn't there isn't a separate isolated individual you know there isn't a separate isolated individual me here that needs to be seen by who nobody get your head around that it's so it's the problem with this is it's a complete and total paradox what wants to have something is that that's what i express when i say i'm not talking to anybody i'm not talking to any mind i'm talking to that i am that i am that sense of presence that expresses through the mind as a thought i am just you to this nothing else you can say the same thing to the sense of presence the knowing that you are who's to speak to and at the same time the sometimes it seems so intellectual when someone says that oh yeah there is no me you should recognize that there is no me it's just question arising that's true that's the ultimate truth but if you are really identified with your core of you know like you really feel you are on my feelings emotions i'm all of me and this is yeah it's a beautiful theory but how do i get there how from that identification with the me i will get to the place where i realize that that this is just forms arising it is impractical so for me what was practical at this at this junction was was that you know they're talking about the idea of surrender the surrender of the self of the separate self but how can the self surrender itself or how can the self surrender itself to the other self how can the ego get rid of the ego how like bob is sometimes quoting funky how can you wash the blood with blood is still blood there but the whole idea of surrender for me was the call for devotion like okay there is this wonderful freedom oneness consciousness all pervading essence or energy of life and i am that i'm just imagining myself not to be and ask the me i have to die to actually get this so-called eternal life of the freedom am i ready to die for it right now am i ready as the individual to sacrifice myself and die because for the individual it almost feels like it is a death like it dies the ego dies and now of course nobody wants to die but in that calling in that in that going back to the heart and that devotional love towards this whatever it is at this point is an idea it's only an idea of enlightenment or oneness or god or whatever it is but if the love for that idea is there in the heart the readiness to die also is and i remember these moments of of focusing on that devotional part and having that question posed to myself am i ready to die for it and then coming to the heart and in this moment just completely dissolving us that yes to it and then coming to the heart and in this moment just completely dissolving us that yes to it suddenly there is nobody there it's just consciousness waking up because that consciousness is a natural state it is there when you don't think so it is there where where you are so in the zone doing something expressing yourself or working that there is no narrative self there is no ego commenting and taking credit and identifying so it is really very very easy it feels like if this is an idea the huge great enlightenment how am i going to get there impossible task but am i ready to die and then suddenly yes i'm not there anymore and then life is still there oh my gosh who is looking at that life is the life looking at itself is the life experiencing itself this is the vehicle through which the life experience itself because the readiness to die bring that surrender and you find out in lots of ways you find out in lots of ways ways that the the urge to go into a little story about what's not actually happening and the minute you see that because you're cognizing emptiness or you're not cognizing emptiness you've seen that the story into what's not is trying to drag you but there is no you to drag but the minute you see that that's what saint francis says in these prayers it's only my don't dying I can have eternal life.

He wasn't talking about the carcass. He was talking about that sense of presence, dying to that believed in entity. And St. Paul says the same thing, he says, I die daily. He wasn't carcass every day. Dying to that sense of science. And there's so many others, well, we're somewhere in the... Once that happens, for me, I speak from my own experience, I saw the world so much more beautiful than I actually see it now. I was telling my husband, it is so beautiful, the world. It is really, really beautiful. And you see people much brighter, beautiful. So until you experience that, you have doubts, you have that fear.

I went through the same thing and it's normal by that. Like Kat said before, I thought, no, this means more to me. I have to take that leap. If it means dying, actually dying, I'm going to do that leap. And I took that leap. See, I just, that's what surrender is. You just give in to it and that's it. And then you find, first of all, it's not as elaborate as people might get enlightenment. I don't like the word enlightenment. No. I feel it's just a realisation of who you are. Who you are not. You find out who you are and who you're not. So, for a while it was a shock because you're never expecting that experience as such to happen.

But afterwards, when you sort of be in it, you see it. You see all the beauty in everything and it's just so different. And even afterwards, there's always downloads coming down to give you more realisations about yourself and life itself continuously. So you've got a lot to gain more than now. And what Bob and everyone touches all the time, we suffer now because we don't understand it. And so everything would take it, you know, as me, the heart. But the other way, you don't take it like that. You see for what it is. So the suffering just drops. And the temptation to jump back into self, that's there sometimes.

No, no, you don't. Why would you want to go back into yourself? Why would you want to go back to something that you're not? You already know what you are. I mean, you're trying now to find who you're not, yeah? Why would you want to go back to that again? You're not better off. You've experienced that. You've had that. I just wondered whether it kind of stays out there. You're waiting to grab your back. It'd be like you saying, is there ever the temptation or is there ever the experience of you falling back into nothing? Because it's nothing. It doesn't actually exist. At all. Like, at all.

There's only you and no one else. So you can't fall in and out of it. It's not there. And part of the process is coming to self. Yeah. That's true. That's a part of what it is. What you're not. Just is. You know, that's this particular path, you know, this particular style of non-duality is really about coming to see what you're not. Yeah? Because otherwise, you're constantly trying to understand who and what you are from what you're not. It's impossible. It's impossible. So you've got to... There's a dreamed character, okay, trying to understand what it's going to be. like when you wake up. The problem is when you wake up the dream character disappears just like in sleep.

It's exactly the same. It really is. Are you going to say something Bob? I'm just going to say something Bob. Once you are, you already are. And so-called enlightenment is just getting rid of the burden of belief. And you can lose that burden of belief. It's much lighter. Yeah. And also what Terry was saying in the beginning which is really helpful is the way to deal with fear using even the logic. Because what he was saying, the reality is that there is no me coming up and asking questions. There is just a question. That's the reality. And to have the taste because on the beginning we usually have this grand idea, this idea of the achievement and the goal and in the future.

But the samples that Bob gives to people, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? This sample is actually showing you a glimpse of your natural state when you pause the thought and you have no narrative self for the moment. And then you see that you are still breathing, you are still seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. It's just really nothing. At that point, this is not a state of bliss of waking up. Oh my God, this is no, it's just a natural state, the same state as the cats that walk around here. They in the natural state. So what is there to fear?

You see when you pause the thought and the hearing, seeing everything is still happening. There is no fear. There is nothing to fear because the fear is only a thought. It's only the idea. It's only an imagination of something bad that's going to happen or something bad that is not going to stop happening. So actually, to have the sample and taste the state of no thinking, which means no narrative self, which means no ego, and see how safe it is, how natural it is, and see that in that state, you're still digesting your food. You're still walking. You can still do anything. Everything is safe.

It's okay. It's really no threat in that state. And from that state, what Terry was saying is totally relevant. Just see from that moment when you pause the thought and there is no thinking, suddenly the question arises and suddenly the idea that this is me asking the question, while this is just the question. And then witnessing that moment of identifying with whatever arises, identifying with thoughts that arises is really, really lucid. It's a realization which later on helps you to see how the identification comes about every time. And then it kind of breaks the moment of observing. It breaks the belief in that identification. It's a habit.

It's nothing else. Yes. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. How beautiful. Yeah. We need to break the illusion or the assumption that me is here. It's got to be broken. It has to be seen. And the only way to see that is from purely witnessing, seeing, Mm-hmm. for yourself. It doesn't matter what I say or anybody says. You've got to see it for yourself. So, you know, as I'm speaking now, I have no idea what's going to come out next. None. Absolutely zero. It just flows out, whatever it is, you know. Your questions that you pose, they just flow out. The problem is we assume that the assume or believe that there's a me here doing it, asking it.

So the trick, really, is to observe everything just happening. Yes, it is. There's no doer there. That needs to be seen. You know, I often refer to the body and its functions. A great place to start throughout the course of the day. Yeah. Because you're kind of, with it all day. Watch and observe all the things that it does that's got nothing to do with you. Like zero to do with you. You know, you might find that you're sitting there watching your TV and your foot starts tapping, you know. Oh, that's interesting. Wow. Like there's just so many things I didn't think about moving then.

There's so many things that this body is doing that just happens and we miss it. We completely miss it. Just like thoughts just happen or a question just happens. Even the notion of there's a me here that's feeling fearful. That also just happens. But it's just a thought. It's only ever. It's only ever a thought that arises. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not that there's anybody there that can choose to think about it or not think about it. Okay? That is a pointer. Yeah? All it's saying is that all of our problems, all of our meanness, all of the self-identity, the me that we believe ourself to be, is nothing.

But thoughts that arise. That's literally all it is. And I love that pointer of Bob's that says what's wrong with right now unless you think about it. That's really poignant that pointer because to think about yourself you have to go into memory. And then you have a memory of the me and then you have a story about that memory related to that me. And then you project that into the... anticipating and imagining into the future. Me and the other person, face or thing. You know, so then you're having a response to the thought of you. So it's a bit of a circus when you start to see it.

And then Bob says something like what's wrong with right now unless you think about it. Dang. And another thing, there is now me unless you think about it. That's right. It's the same in a insightful way. Yeah. There is now me unless you're thinking about it. That's right. That's exactly right. Which implies the me is nothing but thoughts. That needs to be seen. That must be seen. And you're in the box seat to see that. You are. Yeah. It's something that you can literally see. Easier said than done. Become aware of. I will try to be in the prison all the time. And you will be.

The thing that really helped me is like I thought, because there's thoughts, there's thoughts I assume there was a thinker. It's like a sudden snap. It's like I've got all these thoughts. It's like, so the assumption was there's a thinker of that thought. So when I broke that assumption... Then there's just awareness of. There's just the thoughts. Just awareness of. Yeah. Thoughts coming and going as opposed to thoughts coming and then the illusion, and it's a total illusion, that there's a me here that's doing the thinking. The thinking of. Yeah. If that was the case, turn them off. If you're doing the thinking, knock it off.

Like really, you know, like switch it off for a couple of weeks and go fishing. It'll be there when you come back. It'll be there when you come back, I promise you. And then just switch it back on again and we'll be back again. We don't have any say over it. We don't have any choice over it. It just happens just like our heart beats. Just like we breathe in and out. See if there is a digester of the food or if there is a grower of the hair. . . Mind is me. Mind is past. There's no me in the prison. Well, there was a very recent well of feeling that came up which was very intense and I felt like a lot of grief was just literally pouring out of my system.

I struggle to reconcile my non-dual inquiry and where that's taken me into the openness. . And then this very visceral feeling of matters of the heart. And I struggle sometimes with, you know, this kind of non-dualistic, what seems like a negation of a very raw, real experience of, I suppose, love. . And so I suppose I just happened to me a couple of days ago. I find that, yeah, I'm struggling to, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. . Writing all that. And the grief was there and coming out. Let it out. Let it pour out. What's left? . And you already recognized it as love, didn't you?

. Yeah. Beautiful. . And I suppose I really identify with Nick over there. And it's almost in that moment of it was like a recognition of, fuck, I don't let myself feel this. I don't let it. . And I suppose part of the grief was maybe that the conceptual self doesn't allow me to feel fully. . And maybe that's what it was. It was a recognition of, fuck, I don't just let the mind feel this. I don't let the mind drop away so that I can just be. . You've got to pull, can't pull anymore, isn't it? . Yeah. . You've got to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

. And yes, it is always the conceptual self that is trying to control and tame and manipulate and adjust. You know, the freedom just outbursts itself. Like when there is a cloud pregnant with rain, there's no one who is trying to stop it because, ah, it's not right. It's not non-jewel. No, it just goes off. And the thunderstorm, it just goes off. It all is freeing. And yes, so your intuition is beautiful that you see there's a conceptual narrative self that is trying to kind of keep it in the boundaries. . And because you know on the bottom of the heart that grief is love.

Of course. Why not just let the consciousness of life fully experience the beauty of life. Just fully embrace it without really stopping anything. I mean, just let that river flow and break the banks. Do whatever. . It's happening anyway. . It will. . And that's wonderful that it's happening anyway. No matter how much resistance you will put towards it, it will take its course. . I suppose there's been, and this is the thing, it's like I can, whenever there's that feeling, there's the addiction to it. . Yeah. . And I think that's the thing. . I think that's the thing. . I think that's the thing.

. I think that's the thing. . I think that's the thing. . I think that's the thing. . I think that's the thing. It's almost like a, ah, the addiction to self. It's almost like I want to go back into this conceptual self. To, to not experience freedom, actually. Isn't it fear of letting go? . Yeah, letting go of the self. Surrender. It's the fear of surrendering. . Letting go, you're, you're, you're thinking you're going to lose your power? You, you're hanging on to that. Isn't that that? . Yeah, I, I know that. . But when. . Yeah, I'm just saying. . That's what it is, it's like a, it's like a phenomenal thing.

. . It's like a natural thing. . Yeah. I get the concept, I get it. It's just when I haven't been in it this intensely before. Well, the point is, can you really go back? Can you go back before you start looking at it? Can you go back to us? No. Thanks for nothing. You're welcome. Keep going forward. You're welcome. That's it. Stop. Thanks for nothing. Tass, all of that is beautiful. And it's just happening. That's what I'm saying. The freedom is there not being a me there in judgement around whatever it is that's happening. Whether it's grief, whether it's joy, whatever it is. That's the expression of...

Certainly not me. I suppose I've come into this inquiry like every other inquiry. Almost like trying to get it in the mind and not fucking feel. Well, the good news is it wasn't you that came into this inquiry. That's the good news. And the other good news is it's too late to turn back. That's what they say for nothing. So it's already happened. Leave it all be. In other words, allow everything to be. Just leave it be. It's okay. Down with the flow. If there's grief, if there's tears, tears of grief or sadness, purge it. Let it. Leave it. Totally allow it. And that includes also the resistance.

I mean, there is a part of it which I also understand. I mean, you know, you don't want to be... You don't want to just completely collapse in a working place and stuff like this. And you don't really know what is behind the corner. And that not knowing and that being careful is also a facet of love. It's also not you doing it. It's the whole picture, the whole dance. Wanting to go with the flow, being afraid that it will completely break the banks and it will collapse you. You know, all that dance, every single aspect of it is the consciousness playing. And just see the whole play.

And see this is one aspect of love. Oh my God, grief, this was something so beautiful and precious. And it's just gone like a sand mandala. What a waste. That's love. Another part of love. Oh my gosh, should I allow myself to just go with it? What if that will... You know, that's also love. That's the caring part of love. It's all that beautiful dance. And you have the privilege to witness the whole show. Just witness. Just enjoy it. Just see the beauty, the intensity, the colors. You said collapse and I think that's what sort of came up too the other day. That there's an association that...

Well, no, actually there's a distinction between collapsing and being present to pain. There's a distinction. There's a distinction that I thought feeling was collapse. And in fact, that's not true. We usually fuck it up. And whenever the feeling wanted to arise, I went to sleep actually. I dissociated. I leave it somehow, collapse. But I think there's just in this whatever it is, I suppose staying awake, there's this feeling that's emerging. And it's like I haven't been present to it like this before. Just being present. I was chasing God. Now God's chasing me. Beautiful. I'm very much leaning out into that. It chases you. You don't have a choice anymore.

Cat kept hitting on it. Usually when that stuff happens, we'll revert back to an old habitual thinking pattern around it, which might be, I don't want to experience this. I just want to resist it, push it away or turn away from it or whatever. And then there'll be a thought associated with that too. It feels uncomfortable. It's fearful. I don't like it. But all usually negative connotations. And we don't want it and we push against it or resist it or try and turn away from it. What it actually is, is love. But from a dualistic standpoint, as human beings, we think we know what love is.

We haven't got a fucking clue. And I'm dead serious about that. Whatever it is that we feel we experience as love in this dualistic pattern of falling in love with somebody. Bullshit. That only lasts a little while. It does. It only lasts a little while. You know, it starts waning and then we start picking on them. You're not the way I want you to be. Or you're not the way I want you to be. What happened to that original so-called love? It's not love that we think we experience dualistically. It's not actually love. It's always absolutely conditional. I was just going to say, that's conditional love.

There's no ifs, or buts about it. It is. What is being experienced there, which we confuse, and our dualistic thinking is being not comfortable, not right, not nice, I don't want to experience, what's wrong with me, all that stuff is wrong. It's completely wrong. What's actually being experienced is love. Real love. It's totally okay. Leave it be. Like really. You won't disappear. You won't get hurt. Whatever it is that your head's telling you is going to happen, it doesn't. Like Michael before, when he was saying, I'm scared to let go of my family. And then, you know, Mary qualified it beautifully. The truth is, you are more in love with your family.

You are more connected with human beings. Everyone. You are one with it. There's no separation. Does that mean that I view every person exactly the same way? No. Cat covered that in nature. I'm closer to my family. You know? As the mother is to its kittens. Do you know what I mean? So there's a natural, innate way that we act and respond and behave. Call it nature. Call it whatever you like. That is there. But the idea that, you know, I've got to let go of family and, you know, what's that going to... I don't really want to do that. It doesn't happen. What you're letting go of.

What you're actually letting go of is not the family. You're never letting go of the family. You're never letting go of other human beings. You're never letting go of nature. You're never letting go of the fact that you're standing on planet Earth. And that planet Earth is in the solar system. And the solar system is in the galaxy. And there's trillions of galaxies. Like, what the letting go of is just seeing the false self. That's all. But there's not even anybody there to let go of that. It's just purely seeing it. So in other words, seeing it for what it actually is. This man. Seeing it for what it actually, actually is.

Seeing before thinking. Before anything else. It's just seeing. And even if there's thinking going on. It doesn't matter. It's seeing that. You just said that there is no... There's no you there. So who's seen it? That's right. That's right. I know it's right. But there's a click. That's right. Yeah. So let me touch on this one. Because I think it was important aspect of what Tess was saying. And I remember Mary had a big realization around that also. At the point of conflict, there seems to be two selves. Like, you know, one is pulling me to experience fully. And another one is pulling me to resist.

It seems like there is maybe a true self and a false self. Obviously. There is a narrative self and there is an ultimate self. It feels there is someone... Mary, you used the small self and the big self. Yeah, true. Lower self for instance. Or lower self and the higher self. That's right. And then who's hearing and all this. The point... And this is often when people kind of get, you know, get misguided. Because there is idea, okay, what am I going to choose? So now we have the third self that is choosing to go with narrative self. Or to go with the big self or whatever the self.

Now, recognizing at this juncture that there is no multiple selves and there is no one who can choose anything at all. There is just a flow. That is just what's going on. Whether the attention will go with the narrative self, so-called narrative self. Because there is... Narrative self is illusion. There is no narrative self. A journey into what's not. Yes, exactly. But still, it's just a ride, you know. It's just a ride in... Yeah, it's a journey, a ride. Yep. So they're all just thoughts. They... Yes. The journey into... And they're just a fear of letting go. That's all it is. And then I... Yeah.

That's right. I said earlier in the piece, do the thing you fear, the desert fear of self, go right into it. It might be very painful, you don't want to go there, but if you can... Fear of life, fear of the world. Have a look at it. There's nothing there. It's only a concept that's made of knocking their guts or making a heart or something. Some thought. I had to pull over at that time. The anxiety and the fear with the act. I had to pull the camera out of the way. I had to pull the camera out of the way. I had to pull the camera out of the way.

I had to sit on the side of the freeway. And just be it as much. For me I was just be as much as I possibly can. Just all right. That's it. You'll be there all that. So everyone is asking for you guys to be louder, but I see that nobody's going to touch this mic. So I'm sorry, people. I tried in the beginning, but... Yeah, it didn't work. It didn't happen again. Don't get out the web of your door you don't. Oh. Thanks for the reminder, Bob, to be like... And that's what it is. It's like, oh, I didn't recognize just how much fear there is in this system.

But there's also like, at that moment on the weekend, there's a lot of people who are like, oh, I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. But there's also like, at that moment on the weekend, on Friday, there was like, oh, it's time to really, really, really look at it, really look at it, because it's been running the show.

And I've been avoiding... There's so much sort of behavioral stuff just in the avoidance of it that I haven't really, really faced it. Without having any concept about it, there's really nothing there. Yeah. Just be with it. Yeah. Because the avoidance keeps it there. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it just happens. Yeah. Just see how the avoidance, the fear of unknown again, is that it's another face of love that is trying to kind of protect what is known, what is familiar. This is kind of a survival instinct part of it. That's right. Yeah. And don't even take credit for this. No. Because the next thing, at least it was my case, was beating myself up.

Oh, why am I not doing it? Why am I... Why am I... You know, taking credit for that. So, the whole picture is just the content of happening. The content of happening. You can't do life wrong. You can't do life wrong. Yes. And life doesn't do life wrong. Because you don't do it. Because you don't do it. Yeah. Once you see it, you think, oh my God, all that for nothing. Isn't it? For nothing. Yeah. For nothing and everything. And it's all love. Yeah. It's all love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all love. Yeah. You are life.

Yeah. Really. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's happy. Yes. For both of you. Yeah. So, I would like to answer Tonya, your question. When you ask, okay, who is doing it? Who is hearing it? Who is listening to it? Okay. You're the doing cat. Yes. Yes. Because... No, because Terry just said before. Said, there's no you there. You stand on the mic there with me. Michael, is that? Said, there's no you there. Right? All it needs is to be seen. Yes. So if it's not there, who's going to see it? Yeah, yeah. It goes back to the oneness then. Absolutely, yes. That's how I wanted to answer your question.

That's all it is. You answer it, yeah. That's it. And it's always been that. Always. Can't not see. One day we'll get a shot too. And then Bob is always kind of presenting it in a beautiful lucid way, the seeing. You wake up in the morning and you open your eyes and the seeing is available. The whole space of seeing, the capacity of seeing is available. Before the concept comes up, I am doing the seeing. Nobody's doing the seeing. So when you say, have a look and see, who is to have a look? Who is to see? It's the same one who does the seeing, the physical eye seeing.

It's the same one. There is only one. So the same one is to understand. The same one is to realize. The same one is to wake up or whatever. Yeah. Whatever label you put on it. But of course, for prolonged amount of time out of habit, it happens to look through the filter of the identity, through that costume or car or house or coat that you put over. And it says, no, no, no, it's that coat seeing now or the body or whatever is seeing now instead of just pure seeing. Or is the eye seeing now? So it is really about always seeing. It's really about always the same one.

But it's good to remind that question. It's good to pause it occasionally. Yeah. Who is asking the question? Or who is not getting it? Or who is to see it? Or who is to just see? Yeah. They are all the same questions. And then the answers to those questions should come out from the one who asks the question. So if you ask the question, who is seeing? I'll ask you, you tell me. Tell me. Who is seeing? Is that the eye seeing? Is that the body seeing? Is that the conceptual eye seeing? Or is just seeing? Because you may have the concept that this is the individual, it's a Santa Claus here seeing.

It doesn't matter that everyone says that Santa Claus is not real. It's still the Santa Claus seeing. And if you really believe it, 100%, that will be your experience. Just like people who believe in angels or whatever they believe in. That's their experience. But it is about questioning beliefs. Stepping out of beliefs and really checking with open mind, with not knowing what to find. Because if you say, okay, I'll check. They told me there is no one there. So now I will believe that there is no one there. Nope, that's not the way. That's right. That's just switching one belief to the other. Exactly. Exactly.

Come on, I can't do a thing with it. Rob says at the beginning, you know, I'm not speaking to anybody. And I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm speaking to that I am, that I am. And you're sitting there now, okay? Are you seeing? Okay. Well, sit there and choose not to. If you think you're the seer, sit there and just choose not to see. But the seeing, as you said, seeing just happens. I don't know. It's frustrating. It's okay. Because you can't grasp it with the mind. You just need to stop trying. There's no bird. There's no flying. It's just a roller coaster ride that the roller coaster is having here.

Beautiful. Yes. Perfect. You're working. You're so involved with people, customers and whatever. Listen to their problems. The guy wants to know how to do this. Well, when you get home, then you let go of that. And you go in a different mode. But then really, is that a problem? Because when you are so busy in what you do. There is no narrative self commenting. There is. You just, the full attention goes into interacting with people. So there's no one there. It's just the same way as dogs are interacting, barking at each other, whatever, doing whatever they have to do. The problem starts when you stop interacting with people.

And now you go to the head. Oh, I should have told him this and that and the other. Oh, I should have done. Yeah. This is when the problem starts. And this is where the investigation is needed. In the midst of action, it's usually not a problem. You are so taken by the action. You won with the action. The life just expresses. It's just like the weather, that rain pouring. There's nobody who is watching it. And it doesn't need to be anyone watching it. Because there is no problem at this point. It's just interaction. Like a fight. When Nisargadatta was asked, what would he do if there was a fight on the street?

And he says, I don't know. I would have to find out. Maybe I would be in the midst of fight. And once you're in the midst of fight, you don't really have to be in the midst of fight. You don't have to be in the midst of fight. You don't have to be in the midst of fight. You don't have to be in the midst of fight. You don't really go and judge to yourself. Because you would get your teeth pulled. Or your eye black. You have to give full attention to the action. The problem only starts when we are out of the zone. Or out of the flow.

Or out of this oneness with life. When you're driving the car and then bang, bang, bang, bang, it just keeps on hammering you. Yes. That's when you've got to look at it from the side of the people and things going around you. You're focused on that one sense. Yes. The utterly awakened, the five senses wide open. You ever know when you're driving a car and all of this is going on you're still thinking about it. That's right. You're still driving. You're still changing the gears. All these people are going on all around you. Your heart's still beating. You're hearing things like other things in the background.

The utterly awakened with five senses wide open would be utterly open with unfixated. Well you're not fixating. If you're not fixating on what's going on around you, the exclusion of everything else is running past you a little bit. I understand how you said that. somebody else something else because sometimes I'll drive but I don't even know how I got there. The car doesn't go by itself obviously. I didn't know you were focusing on something else altogether. Yeah, you see what was in your head. The other senses were all working alright. Yeah, and you get to a point and then you realise, gee, there's what I get out, you know.

It still feels like you can have an emotional reaction though around some people. It might be, I don't know if it's jealousy or it might be a feeling, you're reacting when you're around that person. I certainly understand thought, feeling and emotion aren't in the same thing. It's all in the same bucket. Yeah. There's no meaning in having it, it's just easy. And enjoy it, enjoy it for now because you may not have it for too long. You know, these reactions fade away. You may have it right now and over time as the patterns and conditioning drops off, you may not have it anymore. Or you may have it forever, who knows?

But you can enjoy it now because the residue of the human-ness, at some junction you may find yourself, you're not really that human anymore. You don't really get into that human sort of relationship. It may happen this way. So if it's still there, enjoy it. Even though it's a jealousy or even though it's anger or even though they push your buttons and it's triggering, it's still a temporary passing phenomenon. Don't lose it away. Yeah. It'll just come up and comes up, see it and go, oh God, I'm feeling that, oh God, look how uninvolved I am spiritually. I mean, Jesus, I'm feeling jealous. Did you have a dialogue about that?

It's the narrative around whatever. It's not what comes up that's the problem. Just be free, leave it. Imagine what it's like to be the cat who's without the ability to label the rain. Yeah. And label jealousy also. Yeah, what is it? It's like a fight. Yeah, but it's always just in a moment and then the fighting stops and it's over. Yeah. Not even enough thought. Like, there's no thought about it. They walk around with resentment. No. They're just the elements like us. And we can only surmise that too. We don't know that for a fact. Yeah, that's true. We actually don't know anything for a fact about an animal.

Not really. That's true. You know? But in the pure observation of them, it would seem that that's how it is. Well, their presence, they would drop it straight away. Yeah. They just seem to be awfully present all the time. Whatever it is that comes up, comes up. Well, the science can tell us a lot about the brain, about the memory, short-term memory, how quick the memory is. But the truth is science we really have to take on belief because we didn't do those tests. I can say there's a pretty good description of the mentality of cats, but yeah, we still have to believe them. You know, the cat talk about the brain.

Showing the cat. That's your thought. That's pretty good. Yeah, that's right. It's just pointed. Had enough? How long have you been up? Thanks, Bob. Thanks, Kat. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, everyone.