Sailor Bob - Nonduality - Enlightened but not liberated? Who 17 03 2019

... to be the personal rather than saying that me or my or I is the one essence that's patented, shaping, forming, experiencing, submitting. That's what I put the manifestation down to, the subtle sound, the subtle vibration of Aum. Three syllables A U and M. It is very quiet, maybe you can speak up because nobody's going to hear it. Okay, so these words are being meowed here. Have a look at them. See if they'll stand up to investigation. If they can't stand up to the investigation they'll be bullshit. So see if it's true, see if it's right, see if it's wrong, see if anything can be mounded.

And only the believed in entity that's a core U can do it. Because that entity or pattern, shape and form is the same essence. That this pattern, shape and form is that everything else is. And the wondrous ways it can express and appear in different pattern, shapes and forms. So the planets, the stars, the grains of sand on the beach, the trees, the flowers, every seeming person, insect, shape and form in it is of that same essence. And the pattern, shapes and forms they appear or express as can be all broken down. Where do they all vibrate in that space and seemingly? ... There are only four patterns in the space which are consisting nothing but the space when they're broken down there.

Just like ripples appear on the water through subtle vibrational movement of energy. Comes a bit larger, they call it waves. Then we take the wave, this wave or that wave, but is it anything other than the ocean? Has it ever been anything other than the ocean? These are analogies we point to. And you got to test them out. I say the water in a mirage. When you drive up to what you believe to be water, it disappears if it's a mirage. When was it ever water? It never was. But when you're away from it, looking at it in the distance, it appears to be water.

A rainbow seems to be colours in the sky. When were there ever any real colours in the sky? With the sun reflecting on a cloud, it would be a beautiful sunset. The sun shining through the mist will form colours on the wall. Just like I've got a crystal in the window over there, when the sun shines through it in the afternoon, it appears like colours on the wall. Hundreds of them. But where are those colours if you try to grasp them, investigate them? They're not there. And going back to the crystal, is there any colour in the crystal? There isn't. We believe to be these things real.

A little bit of questioning and you see they're not. Well, we say the false cannot stand up to the investigation. And we've taken on the truth. We've taken on so many false beliefs through word. And when you look at the word even, and you'll see the word or the label is not the thing either. The word water, you can't drink it or spill it. The word fire can't burn your mouth. Any other things. So what's the word I or me that we've taken to be this person, this personal entity? And the person is not the reality. Persona, the mask that word comes from. What do you get?

We've got a mask of concepts. This vibrating pattern of energy we call thinking or the mind vibrates into concepts, words, thoughts, ideas. Being a vibration, any vibration has a start and a finish. And have a look at your mind, see how it functions. How do you, words, all these words you've learnt, how are they thinking, happening? See, there's always... dualistic, what we call dualistic. There's always good or bad, pleasant or painful, happy, sad, loving, hating, positive, negative. Now it's the same energy vibrating. And what's causing that same division? The word. The word we put on it. This is good, we've got a concept or idea of what we think good is.

And this one's bad, we've got another concept or idea of what we think bad is. This is pleasure, this is pain. The point is, there's a certain... The target at it is we try to grasp it with a concept. And we fail. And he says you are bound to fail. There's no other thing, anything else can happen but fail. Because it's non-conceptual awareness. It's the awareness without any concepts, words, or ideas, or any beginnings or any ends of it. I'm using those terms now, words, and talking fully. There are all vibrations appearing. And the energy in those vibrations is the same energy that's in the mind.

And the energy in the mind is taking a breath and beating your heart. And that can resonate with what has been obscured in those patterns obscured because we followed what our parents, school, society, and everybody else have told us when we learnt words. And it might throw a little bit of light on the subject. And light itself is energy. So it's the energy, the light of that energy is going to dissolve the energy of the darkness, the evil, or the unhappy, or the sad, or the anxious. Or sad thoughts, whatever. And then like the so-called Christ, you might be able to say, I am the light of the world.

And he wasn't talking about himself. He was talking about that sense of presence that's expressed through the mind as the thought I am. That is the light in which the world appears. And the light, that light shines through your eyes. Because light needs an aperture to shine out of. God has covered over it. It'll find a crack and it'll shine through it. What's the attitude of that light? You have energy shines through you, through the eyes. And this enables us to see things, recognise things. And he says, let your eye be single. And your body will be full of that light. Let your eye be single.

We think we've got two eyes, but when you look, can you see two eyes? And all you can see is the space there. In which this room appears and everything else appears in it. And what's outside, I can see through the window up here. But bringing it back to where the space is, what can I see? Just a basic emptiness, space. What must I be? The content of the space and the content of the think or mind? Or that which all this content forms in? The life essence itself. And again you're told, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. Not the personal.

The sense of presence. It translates through the mind as the thought, I am. That I am is the present. The knowing that you are is presence awareness. Drop the concepts on, win it. And see that sense of presence doesn't go away. It's there. But thoughts will appear. Seemingly disappears at night. Or you give it up gladly at night. You don't put any labels or concepts on it. Why does it seemingly disappear? Because the thinking, the thoughts have gone into a bonze. They got a bit tired and gone to sleep. But there can be another stirring in there and a dream will appear. Where will that dream appear?

In this so-called thing called mind. Expressing through this seemingly so-called mind. Couldn't express if it didn't have a pattern to express through. What do we call the mind? When you investigate mind, there's no such thing as mind apart from thoughts or concepts. So we see we're taking all these things away when you investigate. There's nothing there. But there's what you'll want to have a better term, the sense of presence. The knowing that you are. The beingness. And it's that knowing, being, knowing. Or existence, consciousness, and loving to be. In which all these pattern shapes and forms appearing in. They're the three factors. And the other two, nama, rupa, are the name and form.

The name is the label we put on something and the form is the pattern in which it appears through. The pattern of a tree we label as a tree. The pattern of this body we'll call human being or me or you. The pattern of the shape and form which the cat's in we call a cat. And those pattern shapes and forms including the body that you think you are right now is transient. Like everything else in the manifestation. There's nothing static about it at all. And you know that when you go back to when you were a little child, your little baby. Before you had any words you can't remember when you learnt words.

And took on the idea that you were a separate entity. All the things that have happened to us have been related to that believed insensitive entity. Because we've never investigated. We took for real what our parents, school, society, and nation told us. And I haven't investigated. But there's been something down through the ages I haven't investigated. And pointed out. That is all there is. I am that. That's been the call down through the ages. I am that. Every tradition. The I am is the sense of presence. A label. And the sense of presence is not the presence. It's the sense. And it says be utterly awake with the five senses wide open.

The five senses are the seeing, the hearing, the tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking. And they're all functioning right now in you. But we've left a lot of them behind and focused what in? They're probably into the hearing at the moment if you're listening to this. Or probably into the thinking if your mind's away somewhere with the bird. Saying this and that or something else. Having some story. But if we focus onto the one sense. To the exclusion of doubt. Even though they can't be chopped out. They'll be still going on in the background. And it says to be utterly awake with the five senses wide open.

And then when they're wide open. You're functioning fully. When you're fixated on the one sense. Like the hearing or the seeing or the tasting. You're excluding the others. You're not living fully. And all the anxiety, the stress, the depression, the unhappiness and all. Can come into it and be taken on board. Because you've separated yourself from the totality. So it says to be utterly awake with the five senses wide open. And it goes on to say be utterly open. That's open to all the senses. With unfixated awareness. Where you're not fixating on one to the exclusion of the others. If one's going on there be open and listening to what else is going on.

What you're hearing. What you're seeing. What the tasting is. What you're touching. What you're smelling. What you're breathing. Unfixated awareness. Then you are actually living. Living fully. And not from little, what do you call them, conceptual ideas or images. Question that and have a look along those lines. Try it out for yourself. When that recognition happens. Would it? And you realise that the search has been a problem. And you see that the search is over. Would it be necessary to go anywhere else? To read any more books? Or to do this or to do that? Instead of going to see, to go somewhere else and try to find something.

People would recognise the change in you. Because it will bring about a change in you. And then they'll want to come in to you and hear what you've got to say. And resonate with that. And you can point the truth to them. Or you can tell them some bullshit story that will keep them in the trap. Like most of the religions are doing. Telling you you're a sinner or you're unhappy. You can do this, you can do that. You'll get out of it. But you lose sight of the simplicity and the openness. And the natural spontaneous joy that's in that. Or in a sense, I'll put it simply.

Self-well-being. There's a self of well-being. Being well. That being is well. It's not a human being. It's not an apic being. It's a well-being. It's seemingly obscured. And the obscurations are just like clouds in the sky. Seemingly blotting out the sun. It seemingly blots out the sun. But the recognition that the sun doesn't leave the sky. And know the sun's there. Whether the seeming clouds there are blocking it or not. Don't you think the same thing will happen here? When you see all these thoughts, concepts, ideas and images I have. Can't block out that natural reality. That natural, actual, actual, actual. You're going to be concerned with them anymore.

No, fuck you. Let it be as it likes. And see what happens then. See how long it can stay around then. When the energy of belief is not going into it. And then you can say, think and do whatever you like. You're going to believe in it. What is actual? You'll know for certain. And you'll go along with that actually. When you get caught up in the old ideas, images and thoughts. How long are you going to persist in something when it's recognised this is false? This entity we believe ourselves to be, this ego. Is a fiction. And they tell you in a lot of ways.

That's the problem. Selfishness, self-centeredness, self-will. Is the problem. That's all about this personal self, the ego. And above all we must be rid of this self-centeredness. That's where you must or it kills us. That's what kills you. Is the relation of the self all the time. And all your problems, they'll say our problem is relationship. And relationship or relativity is dualism. And if we're talking about the one essence, which is not two. What are you going to relate to? If there's nothing you can relate to. What can be dual to you then? If you're not relating it to something. Me and the other. What are you relating with this conceptual image?

The egoic images which were based on words we've learnt. Have a look at it. What do you believe yourself to be when you believe you're this person? That's me or I, Bob. The Australian, the good fellow or the unhappy fellow. The introvert, the anxious fellow. Or the fellow who's having a good time. Or this, that and the other. All concepts. And because those concepts are not the truth. Not the real. Then we get anxious and unhappy about it. Not working out the way we think they should. And the anxiety. And the fear. And the depression. And the guilt. And the shame. The jealousy and the envy.

All psychological suffering comes up. But what's happened to that life essence that you are? Hasn't it been, hasn't there been awareness or knowing of all the changes that have gone on with it? It's a lot different to the thoughts you've had when you first started to read when you were a little child. And every day and every moment patterns thoughts and all that. And they all stayed around. Not even the body has stayed the same. Everything is transient. The thoughts and feelings are gone. Just like the clouds that are seemingly obscure in the sun. The same self shining sun. The radiance of the sun will cause a wind to blow that will blow the clouds away.

Or bring the rain down. They don't last. But we fixate on them and resist them from going. Trying to keep them there. Or resist the other way. Trying to get rid of them. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. And we do it. Then we set out to go beyond of them. Not giving them a chance to be free and left to their own natural functioning.

We think we can do something about it. And we get caught up in all this psychological crap. And have a look at the world. The state it is in today. War. Everything else going on. People trying to acquire something from somebody else. Or take something else over. Or all the rest of it. Even in the religious world. that have lost sight of the true nature. But nature is functioning just the way it ought to. Bring something about, it might bring a big plague around that'll wipe out millions of people. It might bring a tsunami or wipe out millions of more. Might bring all sorts of things in, volcanoes imploding and exploding.

Plates or metal shelves, what do they call them, melt rock shelves in the ocean or whatever. The plates cause big eruptions or revolvents and the Earth's a-changing. Planets will implode and explode. Those things are going on naturally in the world. But we add the thinking onto it and make it a lot worse than it ever was or ever will be. And Shakespeare tells you there's nothing can trouble you, or nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And the saga tells you nothing can trouble you excepting your own imagination. Imagination, break that word imagination down to image in. What is an image? Like a thing appearing in the mirror.

It's a reflection or an image in the mirror. It's a reflection of you or an image in the room. So see what we've done on this clear, natural, safe, self-shining awareness that we are. We've formed images or reflections of it. And the biggest one, the worst one we've formed is this image of ourselves. It's me, Bob, the Australian, the good fella, the unhappy fella, the world that doesn't like me. That's an image. And that's what's troubling you. Nothing can trouble you excepting your own imagination. Drop that imaging off, imagining. Seeing things as they are. What is, as it actually is. And when it's seen as it is, it'll be seen in a different light.

And who's gonna be bound or locked into it? Things will appear and disappear. When you know that's the way transient happens, constantly changing. And you know, no matter how much you love them, how much you want to come in, they're gonna change. Some might die or move away. You're gonna continually continue to beat yourself up that something that was, and it's not what is, and it's not what will be, where you're going to stay. What is the actuality of all? Isn't that the is-ness that is right in this moment? Recognise that. Even if the past is not what it is, it's the present. The past and the future, thoughts and ideas are coming up.

They're taking place in this is-ness. And the is-ness is bound to change. If we don't want it to change, we think we're gonna fix it. We focus and attach to it and keep it there. We keep ourselves in this bondage of self. Go ahead. But it doesn't have to happen. And as people here all recognise what's been pointed out here and got different takes on it, some of you might have questions. Some of you might be, you know, say, somewhere seemingly what you think along the path, tell us about it, or might seem to be stuck. But question, investigate, or express. But it's pointless sitting there like stunned plovers, trying to still the mind, trying to silence the self.

When it's the very so-called self that's trying to do it, the possibility, then you wonder why it hasn't happened. And nothing's been wasted. You might have been 10, 20, 30 years at it, but when it's seen, it doesn't matter a stuff. That's all gone now. But when you look at, oh, I've been 30 years, I'll just pass, I'm not gonna give up my meditation now. I'm very close to it. A very trap that keeps them there. Oh, there you go. I have a funny question, Bob. Why not? Friends of mine who were actually into Dzogchen, they have a lot of different concepts and commitment and loyalty to the text rather than to awakening.

And I say you are enlightened but not liberated. What would you say about that? Well, if I've seen that there's no entity here, no ego or no entity here, no self. To be enlightened or awakened. Yeah. Or liberated. Well, who is there to be enlightened? Who is there? Yeah, yeah. And you're not gonna go to the next level. And what does enlightenment mean? I have no idea. What? No one has a concept about it. Well, it doesn't mean you're full of that light, that natural light of energy. Or you've taken the load of concepts off your shoulders and it's much lighter. Very often, and I heard other people, we had Tony coming here and other people, they say you are trapped in emptiness and there is further to go.

Yeah, but Tony was trapped in it himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But can you... He couldn't say that. Can you answer about you being trapped? Well, he can think what you like about me, but I know where I am. I'm not trapped, what any. Oh, I don't think there's any you to be trapped. No, that's not true. I just want you... You want me to what? Hmm? What do you want? Yeah, I just wanted you to answer it because I'm curious about your take up on it. And perhaps, you know, people can hear it from me, but it's not the same. Why? Because they attach to the idea of messenger.

Well, are you trapped? No, I don't care. Well, if you don't care, if you're not trapped, whether they take notice of you or not, if you know yourself or whatever. Well, whatever. I just... They're my friends. I wanted help. Well, you recognise you're not trapped, you must recognise there's nobody that can be trapped if they look into it. Sure. Then whether they want to listen to you or not, that's their lookout, isn't it? Sure. Sure. So that would be like sending them to somebody else and then somebody else again when they come here, who couldn't hear it either, they go somewhere else. No, no, no, they are not searching.

They already found the path which has many, many different levels and many stages and many practices. And it takes thousands of lifetimes. And they're happy for it. You know, they are right. They're not seeking anything. They already found what they're seeking. Well, they're trapped. I don't know. I don't know. Or thousands of lives and all are looking for something. Yeah, there must be. I mean, you know... I went to a healer once, not long ago, about a year ago, and he said, everything you're doing is not working for you. Spiritual practice, you've got to find something really higher. You've got to find the highest of the highest, right?

And so I came back and I said, I found this guy called Bob Saylor. And he said, oh, he's a blower energy. And yeah, I was just... pondering over that. And that was the start. So... Good story. He might be the one following. There is only energy anyway. Yeah. So you're renowned. And everyone has a concept about you. Yeah. You talked about, like, the five senses. So if all the five senses are open and operating, and I'm in those or experiencing those, then that's a good start, is it? I mean, that's a good place to be. You're seeing now? Yep. You're hearing? Yep. You're speaking?

Mm-hmm. Tasting? Speaking in sight, I guess. Do they stop half-hunching in the background? No. No. They're not. They're putting a squished one in. The others bite quite easily. Get the taste of them off. Now, look around the room without labelling anything. You're seeing everything? Seeing all these objects in the room? Yeah. You can't say they're not there. Now, when you look at them, you can put a different label on each one, can't you? Mm-hmm. But it hasn't stopped the seeing. That thing. The seeing. And while the seeing was going on, you're hearing these words. You're still seeing right now. You're hearing these words. Mm-hmm. Hearing the cars go by outside, still tasting in your mouth.

So they're all there, but they're pushed into the background a lot. The fixations, we fixate on one to the exclusion of the other. That's when you're, yeah, OK. So the idea is when you're in all of them, that's, you're sort of getting more in presence. You're living totally. Yeah, yeah. Instead of from the one, from just the thinking part of the seeing. Yeah. When you're thinking and shutting everything else out. And you're in your body more as well. There's no choice in that, it's just awareness. So. When it's said to abide, abide in awareness. That's what that thing in the mind comes into now, that claim.

Sometimes. Like that. Sometimes. Yeah, it comes into. That's just functioning. Yeah. Conscious of it. Mm-hmm. Ever-fresh. Not even as much as dividing attention equally between five senses, because who would be there to do it? But to actually recognize the habit of focusing exclusively in the mind. When you are aware, when there is some sort of an interest and curiosity, you see how much of the attention goes into imagining. Imagining future, past, comparing, calculating, analyzing, and how little goes into the other senses. And that's what brings back the balance. Because balance is the natural state. So it's not really about forcing yourself, because there is no do-er.

But recognition does all of it. Mm. Yeah. It's being utterly open with the five senses wide open. Utterly aware. So I'm open to everything, you know. You're not going to reject anything. See it come and let it go. But when we're focusing on one thing, and we've got a mind closed to everything else, what are you going to hate? Yeah, that was another issue. It's just a warning, because it doesn't matter. It's equally beautiful. Those friends of mine, they were also, they hate Advaita, because Dzogchen is above Advaita, and Advaita is getting it all wrong. Because it asks, who is it happening to? And that's offensive.

That closes the discussion, and they want to discuss, you know. They want to go to the mind and talk, compare. And this is just an example of a warning. Where the so-called spiritual people are. Yeah. And that's the way that spiritual search can take you, into writing lengthy articles about every little detail of how are words used, or how is the nail polish on the finger that points the moon. Nobody looks at the moon. So it is not really about the rubbish in pointers, but about using them. What is your commitment? To getting the intellectual grasp of all the philosophies, or one particular philosophy, or one particular master?

Or to wake up from that nonsense? Yeah, that's what I say. I'm not a Christian, I'm not a Hindu, I'm not a Muslim, or a Buddhist, with all those things, and all the different things. Or a Muslim. Advaita. Advaita. Or any of those religions. But I can take things out of them, because they all point the truth. Take the ones that will resonate and ring a bell, and throw the rest away. Yeah. But if I'm encased in one of them, I can't get in like the dog's chain or whatever, you can't go outside of that belief or that recognition. Well you could, but you don't want to.

I'm a Buddhist or I'm a Christian. And you know, you can't give away Christ or Jesus or... You know, you'd be a sinner. Okay, it's a big start, yeah, doesn't it? Every reason comes from dualism. Yes, that's right. Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Communism, Capitalism, they all come from that ism, primary ism, me and the other. And a fixed identity, you know, if you are Advaita, wake up from Advaita. If you are a Buddhist Zen practitioner, wake up from Zen. If you have any identity, just wake up from the identity and everything else will be sorted. And pick the truth out of each one of them.

Pick the truth out of them all. And of course it's not wrong. I mean, I love my friends and I'm actually happy for them. The boy is quite young, he didn't really suffer enough, so his commitment is to study rather than to waking up. And the girl, I love her to bits and I'm so happy she's twice his age. And they are a beautiful couple. So she actually sacrificed her hunger for the truth into joining on the path. And they are a beautiful couple who is about to get married and spend their life on those different practices. How bored would they be without it? The relationship wouldn't probably survive.

So it's not wrong if the consciousness wants to express through particular people as the love relationship rather than wake up to the reality. I mean, what's the difference? For the individual it might be a difference, but for the consciousness it gets it all. It gets awakening to love or whatever in one person, awakening to the truth, awakening to the violence, whatever. It samples everything. Totality doesn't lose anything if one person steps out and sacrifice her hunger for truth to develop relationship and experience this and appreciate this part of the appearance. All appearance is collectively appreciated and loved by different points in consciousness. And that's the difference.

So it's nobody has to. It's not that everyone has to wake up, those who don't have desire for this or they rather into getting it intellectually. Nothing's wrong. Nothing's inappropriate. Everything's like Nisargadatta says, knowing the truth and seeing it as it is, it means nothing is wrong anymore. No one is wrong. Relatedly, I think the definition of the truth is that it's not about the truth. The truth is about the inside of our self but in more than 0.4% of all the neighbouring being then and there. God forbid if you get inside or the others get inside you. Re demais. Re demais. Re demais. Re demais.

But even Nanda means peace, because that I have. Yeah. A sense of well-being, being well. Yeah, yeah, yes, that's all there. You couldn't call it bliss, but I wouldn't want to let it go. It's really nice when it happens. Loving to be. It's an absence. Nothing is wrong anymore. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, a lot of people get hooked on that. Okay, yeah, tell us. So a lot of people get hooked on that term? Oh, I do. Ananda, bliss. Another way of putting it, awareness of being is bliss. Just awareness of that being. Or being, knowing, loving to be. Or having affectionate. That's the bliss, awareness of being.

Being affectionate, but love yourself a little bit. A little bit more. Raibhugita calls it stillness, doesn't it? Stillness. And that's also the obstacle. And very often, I would imagine, that's the obstacle of my friend also who asks, yeah, Bob. Bob is enlightened but not liberated. How do you know? Because you have mental image. What it means to be enlightened. What it means to be liberated. And of course, she's not even enlightened. Far to go for liberation. Again, how does she know about it? Because she's got a mental image and she does all the mental processing, comparing the state with the image, what she's experiencing now.

No, no, it's not happening. It will happen in the future. But Bob says he read some of the stuff of numbers. Yeah. From Kainorbu. And he wasn't really promising people anything in future, was he? No. No. He was... No, but he looked at where he's saying, speaking from the first. He's right on the ball. But then again, in most of his talks and lectures, he didn't go into stories. Yeah, so imagination. As you say, ananda, it is a trap in the language because people have different imagination. What should that be? And it's not there. What should be? The ananda, the bliss, the ecstasy, whatever. It should be here.

Well, if it should be, so it is about to happen in future, it means forget about it. It's not worth it. If it's not happening right now, throw it to the rubbish. It's not true. If it's not happening right now, it means it's a passing phenomena. It means if it happens, if it will happen tomorrow, then it will stop happening the day after tomorrow. So it's rubbish. It's not true. It's just passing state. Well, Linda Clare said to me, no, Richard, this can't be real because you don't have bliss. Oh, yeah. A lot of nonsense. And how does she know? Well, yes. Richard, you are bliss, don't you?

You are bliss, yeah. Recognised as well. Yeah, I think the word bliss, you know, brings up connotations of a sort of experience, like full-on experience. So people are looking for a full-on experience, and it's just the truth. It's the essence of your own being. That's what it is. And the absence of story. Well, the bliss you try anyway. Yeah. Yeah, so I was going to say, how would you even know? If you haven't experienced bliss, how would you even know what it was? Yeah. Like really, how would you even know what it was? It is just a concept. Just a concept, yeah. And a concept that comes up with all the pleasures put together and imagined to be something exceeding the pleasures.

But sometimes I have experiences where the awareness is much more intense. So it's much more full-on. More blissful. Which feels blissful. So it feels, a lot of times the awareness is more dull. I know I'm going to set myself up to get damaged. I feel like I always do. What obscures it? It would be, yeah, just thinking. Part of me. Sometimes the sun shining in its fullness. Other nights, you just see it through a cloud, not as clear. But what's obscuring it? The cloud. And the cloud is formed by it. Your thoughts are formed by it. It isn't. It's the silence and stillness. When you can't put a label on it, that would be very blissful, wouldn't it?

Uncaused joy. Yeah. That's the word to focus on. Uncaused joy of your own being. Uncaused. Yeah, not relating to any. So that's not like leaping down the road joyfully, you know, exuberantly and blah blah. It's just the uncaused joy of our own being. It's a very unnameable, really. It's possibly just what mirrors in and the emptiness itself. It's pretty damn empty. There's nothing in the way. You might see a face across you smiling and joy comes up. You might not. And you might just be peace. Exactly. Well said. Yes. I'd say something about a kind of a glitch in my setting this up, and that is the sense that all experience is a glitch.

All experience, whether sensory experience or anything else, arises within awareness. And in my conceptualization, awareness is kind of like a big bucket. And rather than being unlimited, it's just getting to be a bigger bucket. You know, as a new experience is coming up, which is kind of putting an edge on it, which is getting in the way a bit, you know. Or expand the bucket a bit more so there's no edges on it. Expand into space. That's all it's in. Everything is encompassed in space. Nothing can push away the outside of space. That's the only thing you can't get out of. No boundaries. What's a bucket?

Ah, good question. It's a good way to describe it. Yeah. What's the bucket in? That's a good question. You can see the outside of the bucket. It has to be space. Yeah. The bucket's in some place. Yeah, yeah. Level up and get to the outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this one is nice. That's a, that's a bucket edge, yeah. And then where are you looking from at the bucket? You're already looking from the space to actually define the edges, so you're already free looking at the content. Yeah, right. No, not yet, not yet. A little more of a suffering please.

So what we're after is a good bucket here. Yeah. I'm like sitting here next to Jack, noticing little empty bits where there's not cognition and then there's sort of like a, I'll go back to what's the energy like here, and then noticing a bit of an edge and then I was seeing Jane as, oh Jane's probably like an empty one and this one's sort of empty with an edge and I thought, oh hang on, what if Jane's just nothing, there's just nothing there, and then it was like this one dissolved down to nothing too, so it's just energy. Yeah. Gorgeous. Yeah. It just flipped the other way.

I'll take that, you know, because somebody made the usual, often made comment about, you know, a night of being nothing in particular, and so, oh yeah, I'll take Jane's empty. You've been told I'm an empty head before, which is a compliment. Empty, empty, empty me. Empty me. It worked better that way. Oh, I'm sorry. No, it worked. Oh, that's what I was... I've just been noticing when little barrier builds up again, just like, what's that, what does that seem to me? Not really listening, but, you know, noticing energy, imagined energy boundaries popping up. I have a little comment from someone who is watching us, and I wonder if that anyone wants to add something.

If the seeker doesn't have actually a feeling of an expanding, does it mean he is not a feeling of expansion? If that feeling doesn't happen, it's not in the process of liberation path, a feeling of expansion, if that feeling doesn't happen. Not necessarily. Cool. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Don't imagine that you need anything. Yeah, yeah, because they're all pointers. Yes. Expansion didn't mean much to me for the first year and a half, but it didn't mean I didn't have many no-thing moments. What do you mean by expansion? Like, what are you... The bucket. The bucket. You literally expand. No boundaries. I forgot what I was going to be.

Yeah. Like the body falls away or something. The boundaries. Well, there's no boundary, because there's no one to have a boundary, so... There's no labeling of a boundary, so you just got what you got when you're not thinking about it. Yeah. You look physiological. Yeah, and then when we talk about it, someone who is watching us may think that we mean this or that or the other, and compare with themselves and say, oh, I don't have it. Well, what we mean. Actually, it's totally unimaginable. It's just a pointer. If it resonates, good. Use it. If it doesn't, throw it away. Don't worry about it. It doesn't matter.

Feeling of expansion. What is it? I would feel it like bloating, maybe. No, no. I don't have to be feeling bloating. Yes. It's just an analogy. And certain pointers, certain vocabulary language resonates, certain don't. It's only one pointer that is actually enough. If you understood one thing and you stay with that one thing, that will take you all the way. Although often for some millions of things come up. Depends. And I'm going to crack the cord. I was watching this guy do a sort of like a meditation with a whole room full of people. And he was just saying, drop all the concepts. And just say, I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. you know, accept perhaps that there's no boundaries. There's no boundaries between you and me. And, you know, it's boundaryless. You know, so if you're going to have a pointer in a whole room full of people, you know, there's no separation. There's no boundaries. This is about one without a second. It's oneness. There's no me, you, space, expansion. It's not even any boundarylessness, really. It's just one. Easy way to translate it to Bob language would be what are the boundaries unless you think about it? That's right. How are they the boundary if you don't think about them?

That's right. All the boundaries are created by thinking. Yeah. I think most of the pointers that work for me are a form of that. Just what's it like if you're not thinking about it? So it's going all the way. Yes. And then for here, there's a lot of persistent thought, hypersensitive thought happening back in, but that's just the nature of it. So I don't care. I don't care if, you know, I have a half a second or a few minutes because somebody's, you know, having a deep battle about non-duality. It's just like presence, presence, presence, and it just stays not cognating about it. Yeah. That's okay, too, and it might be high energy and whatever.

It's just I think the more and more and more and more, for me, I'm swimming in this, the more and more it drops off to mean nothing so much more quickly. Just so many kind of ways you could describe what it might be like doing that, but that's just a bunch of sensations. Yeah. And what I was going to say before is that for me, often when a question starts to arise, like the one on expansion, because there's a pattern here of not being heard, so everybody shot it down when I started asking about expansion, you know, for a week or so. And then, but then I sort of got some insights on expansion, and they were helpful pointers, and they gave some nothingness.

And, yeah, so if something's arising, it's quite possibly going to be a useful thing for you sooner or later, sooner rather than later. Yeah. You know? So if the seeker will win the seeker, who's the seeker? If there is seeking, the thought comes up, oh, I should do this. Oh, I should do this. Oh, I should do this. Oh, I should do this. If you seek, you've formed a subject, a seeker. I seek, enlightenment or whatever it is, that becomes the object. So they're divided. How's a seeker going to get, cut out that division? But if there is seeking, and you must realize the seeker is what is sought.

Seeking is the actuality. There couldn't be a seeker without seeking. Couldn't be the sought. Without seeking. There couldn't be the sought without seeking. It's the actual functioning that's going on right now. And that's alive, isn't it? Seeking is alive. Yeah, that's the same with hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. The ING on it is the actuality. What is happening in the immediate here. Something is going on right now. What was, what wasn't, will be. Thinking is happening right now. And you say, I think. You've related. You've related to a thinker, the subject. And that's that conceptual image you have about yourself. Which is a dead image.

And what, you know, whatever the thought is becomes the object. But they both take place in the thinking. And tasting, touching, smelling, breathings. It's got what's going on actually. In the moment. Yeah, so this is, I guess, what my friends also meant by being stuck and not wanting anything else. Because you're enlightened. And not liberated. You have no desire to get liberated. And well, frankly, who is there to have the desire? Even if they would, I don't know, invent some sort of a really compelling talk that there is something more, something better, something holier, something bigger, something more pleasurable. And you must want it. Because if you don't want it, you won't be seeking it.

And if you don't become a seeker again, you won't find it. So even if, let's say, theoretically. Theoretically, that desire has been implanted in my body-mind. Would I really believe that there is a me having a desire? I doubt it. The desire would be just a movement of energy. Just like seeking is a movement of energy. When I drop my scooter keys and I'm looking for them, yes, I'm a seeker. I'm trying to find the key. But is it really me doing anything? No, it's just the action. It's just the movement. That is the finding, the swearing perhaps is happening. And all the other stuff is happening.

But I am the awareness in which that is happening. Whatever, is it a seeking or is it questioning or is it whatever the activity or is it cooking? It doesn't matter. It's no difference. Desiring, wanting, they're all just movement. If I don't take ownership of it, if I'm not the doer of it, I'm not in trouble. Because whether I find it or not, who cares? There's nobody there to worry about it. It's just the way activity presents itself. The consciousness vibrates. It vibrates at this moment. And this moment is all there ever is. And it's never going to be the same again. So let's enjoy this moment as it is, whether it is swearing or whatever.

So we can cross this scooter theory of enlightenment off our list. Yeah. We're going to go there. That's good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For me, if you have the deep experience of it's only happening, it's only just happening, like I do for the non duality, but maybe not understanding social media better, that's not seeking. Seeking is when you really believe you are doing something about it. So if you really believe you can find the keys, but if you're just having an experience of it just happening, the search going on...

To me then that's not seeking. No, it's nothing. It's just movement. movement based on kind of what bob says about seekers and seeking yeah it's a seeking but no seeker it's just an activity yeah what do you whatever you label it it's just an activity because i'm often you're seeking in the terms of um thinking you can do it so i'm just taking that kind of basis for seeking so i don't feel i don't feel like i've ever been sick of non-duality but i feel like i've been a seeker of you know how to i'm thinking you do you just stop thinking about doing what's that well i say if you're thinking of doing it just start the doing and then you're not going to think of it anymore yeah that's what mind you out to me like that's why free will means nothing to me because i don't think about trying doing things myself not that there is a self but i think i think that there's a responding you know that's the img again there's a responding to what is in the moment of responding you know there's definitely you know and you see the action figure like jerry describes so clearly you watch what's going on watching what's going on the action figures doing its thing and there's a responding whatever comes up in the moment there's a responding to it you know this is what i'm seeing here lately there's a responding responding responding responding you know sometimes there's a dialogue sometimes there's actions you know the hands are floating around there's a responding responding and that's equally mysterious what your body is going to do next moment as anybody else's body and equally interesting and curious anybody who's not existing right now nobody's saying i'll have to search for existence i think you're natural existing anyone's not conscious If you're not unaware, you might say, I've got to find awareness.

If you're not unaware, you must be aware. Anyone who's not happy to be, you've got to search for that happy beingness, the blissful beingness, or you're just happy to be right here, right now. But the words you put on, the names and forms, concepts you put on, are what? Seemingly obscure, like clouds. Nothing to see, nothing to hear, nothing to be. Where to go, nothing to do. Taking that stance, if you stop breathing, heart stop beating, thoughts continue to arise, that's a lot of shit, you know. Yeah, just see it now, test it for yourself. The Mars drive, the Mars drive, breathe. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun.

It's conceptualised. The mind's a planning tool. The mind appears upon that presence that you are, and it's a planning tool for the action figure. Yeah, they're collaborating together. Yeah. They're collaborating, but it's just spontaneous. It's just spontaneous. There's no doer. There's no doer. So you see the actions taking place, there's the responding. So the mind is a clunky tool. It works in the pairs of opposites, and it's always going to work in the pairs of opposites. It can't ever do anything else. It's a dual system. It's a dual system appearing on that presence that you are, you know. And so that's what it is. And it's all spontaneous, happening spontaneously, you know.

And I love the analogy of the railway station. I can't help going back to that. You know, that presence that you are is like a railway station, and everything else that's going on is like the trains coming and going. The mind is like the trains coming and going. You know? And you see it trying to name and claim. But it's an illusion. This is what Bob's saying here. It's an illusion. There is no doer. You want to get on some of those trains, don't you? Yeah. It's a pattern. It's a habit. But it never has the same intensity anymore. Because what Bob's pointing to here is there is no me.

There is no doer. But the mind's nature is to just keep naming and claiming, naming and claiming, naming and claiming. Or the trains keep coming and going, coming and going. All pointers to the presence that you are. But you can't describe it. Trying to describe a presence is erroneous. Because everything else is appearing upon it. It's indescribable. There's no past or future. Only pointers. Yeah, the mind works in the pairs of opposites. Past, future, happy, sad, pleasure, pain, you, me, etc, etc, etc. It's always going to do that. Some of the trains, like if those trains stop getting taken, eventually they get taken off the menu.

Off the track. And then there's other trains that have been waiting at the station, at the depot, and they get put on. And then there's other trains that have been waiting at the station, at the depot, and they get put on. Because they've been waiting there too. And you get a lot of new, a lot of thoughts that hadn't been noticed before. So they sort of go. Just don't get on any train. Yeah, exactly. But also, the person who brings a new train to the depot, there might be a lot of sensitivity in this pattern. So that person might be ordering like crazy. There's a whole bunch waiting there in the backlog.

Or there might not be. And there might not be many to go. Before they all get exhausted. But over time there'll be less frequent changes. There'll be less frequent trains. What's that? Oh yeah. Absolutely. I'll be waiting for a train. This train comes by a lot. It's very liberating. There's a lot of silence. Sometimes a train loses, you know, doesn't care. The station doesn't care. Like I often have my own mouth here and I don't know if that train's going to come by. Like if I'm going to remember what, I know what's going to be said. But there's a flash of what might talk about.

But I've no idea if it's going to be remembered when it comes up. And so it's like, you know, you don't go chasing the train around the bend to, there's no urge to go chasing around the bend to see, oh what was that train? It might come back around the loop, it might not. What were you going to say, Terry? Simon? Yeah. Did I, I just want to be sure I heard you properly. Did you say something along the lines of you can't wait for the action figure to be gone? That was long ago. He corrected himself. Yeah. I just want to, what is the action figure?

The action figure? Is the, you know, tomorrow, well just, you know, get on a plane, come here, and then tomorrow I've got to do this, tomorrow I've got to do that. No, no, you're talking about the me. Yeah, the me. No, that's not the action figure. No, that's not. Okay. So I just wanted to clarify that just so you're clear. The action figure is the body. Yeah. You can't wait for the action figure to drop away. You'd die. You would die. Got it. So I just want to be sure you, it's just language. It's just language. The action figure is being aware of or taking note of, not taking note, but just being aware or becoming more aware of what this action figure does.

Right. That's right. And we think it's me doing it. And it's not. It's absolutely not. So it's becoming aware of that, you know. Yeah. I mean this morning there was, I had about five different, five or six different things on the bench. And, you know, being lazy by nature, I wanted to work out how I could carry them all. This is afterwards, I realise. I want to work it out and carry them all at once. But that thought didn't come up. That thought didn't come up prior to that. Right. There was the realisation of it way after. But what I absolutely was totally crystal clear on was how this action figure, amazingly intelligent, nothing to do with me, amazingly intelligent, managed to just grab these things and really quickly, things were being thrown under the arms and held there and there and then that finger there.

And off. Off the action figure went. You know. It wasn't until later when I kind of paused for a moment. Wow, check that out. That was amazing. Yeah. So that's what's meant by starting to observe what this, at least what this does. Then you start to see it everywhere. You really do. My action figure drives me crazy. You know, but sometimes. Your action figure. What's it all about? It's too much action. But it's beautiful as well. Is that happening anyway? That's the Mii's interpretation of the action though. It's having a response. I'm saying it's great, you know. It drives me crazy because it just has so much energy.

But the Mii sometimes drives it. Just watch it. Really. And that's. That's all you can do. Whether I have free will or not. Am I choosing to do this? Am I living in this body and directing it and doing this and choosing to do that and so on. You can start by just observing. It's a good opportunity to watch. Yeah. And it's a close one. Here it is. Yeah. And you start to become aware that this thing here. Just. Is doing. And has nothing to do with me. It's responding. Like zero. Like zero zero. And it just moves about and does its thing. Just like a cat does.

Or a tree sprouts leaves. Or. There's just. There's an intelligence here. There's an intelligence here if you like. That is moving this. And it's moving. It's moving. The mistake we make is we think that it's me. Yeah. Doing that. Now the only way you're going to come to the understanding or realization that it's not me doing that is watch it. So that action figure. Sorry. That action figure doing its thing is partly also based on sort of patterns that it has for itself. Like it likes running. Hold on. You're telling me that the legs. Yeah. Because the legs. Because the legs like running. Can you hear.

Can you hear that? So you're saying that the legs have created a pattern because the legs like running. Where would the pattern get created? Really. In the muscle. In the muscle. So the legs go. Damn I feel like running. And then off they go and start running. Like the shape of one muscle is different than the shape of another muscle. Yeah. It's the me. It's the. It's just an unraveling of all of the molecules during their shape. Yeah. I get that. So Terry the intelligence that you talk about that is the eye can never claim. Never. No. It's not claimable. And it's only absolutely. It's only absolutely recognizable or recognizable when the eye is not.

So I can't have it. You know. And that's a. I can't get it. No. No. It's already there. It's there. It's there. But it just gets a bit veiled by this idea that you know it's mine. Or then the eye that also thinks I can't have it. There's almost like grasping either way. Yeah. Exactly. Wrong. So what I made and I see others make is claiming ownership of the presence. It's one thing to say. It's one thing to recognize. You know these are not my thoughts. This is not my body. But it's a quantum leap to realize. And this will sound a little bit paradoxical but it's not.

That this is not my presence either. It's not my presence. Just like it's not my body. Just like it's not my thoughts. But it seems to be one of the last things that really truly gets recognized. Because it's so intimate. That presence is so intimate. That we've claimed ownership for it all our life. All our life. We've claimed ownership of that sense of presence. Because after all it's. It's so intimate. And it's mine. And it's not. There's no me or mine there to claim ownership of that. There's no me or mine there to claim ownership of that. There's no me or mine there to claim ownership of that.

But just as we initially start to see. But just as we initially start to see. And we do. When we look. That I'm not the thoughts. They're not mine. They just happen. The body's not mine. It's just an action figure. It does its thing. The same needs to be recognized in relation to the presence. This is not my presence. There's just presence. There's just presence. And the one claiming ownership. And the one claiming ownership. Of the presence. Is the same me that was originally claiming ownership. For my thinking. Or for my body. But we often don't look at that sense of presence. But we often don't look at that sense of presence.

And then we wonder why. We get so far. And go look I've learned all this stuff. I understand. I can see there's no me. I can see I'm not the thoughts. I can see I'm not the body. I'm just the presence. Terry what you've done is to invent another cohen. What is the shape of one leg running? It's true. I'd like to see that actually. What wants to see something? I'll hit you with a stick to make sure it's going to come true. I'll hit you with a stick to make sure it's going to come true. Terry it's like, probably a few such things the day before.

And I was super super tired. And cognition wasn't really going to happen. And so I was cleaning. Doing heavy job. that body never goes up, you know, that easily, but it's already there in place and it went so fast and oh my god, and that just, poof, you know, just, yeah, it was clear as day it was just happening and things were moving and yeah, there wasn't even much bother to even look at, oh, that did that and that was called a thing and that didn't, you know. What it is that makes the me feel so real, because it does, like it feels like there's an entity here and the reason for that is because the me claims ownership of the presence, which is real, the presence is real, there is aliveness here and the last little thing it hangs onto is that and that's what makes the me still feel here, that's what also induces fear.

Fear in relation to being on this path because the me interprets that if me's got to go, the life's got to go, the livingness has got to go, after all, that's me too and it's not, again, it's just an idea or a belief or a concept that we've taken on and we think that this is my presence. What? Labels have got to go, even presence, it's a concept of time. No one. Yeah. There's no. That point really resonates. It's ultimate, yeah. There was a recognition on the, a couple of days ago of just how much tension actually is there because of this concept of self that wants to get something or doesn't want the other, there's just, the holding isn't just mental, it's physical of not feeling safe or worthy or whatever it is that, but then there was also this, oh, gradual, gradual release of that.

Yeah. Real release of, oh, I'm actually free, held. And that's what you point to with the relaxing, you know, there's no one, there's no one here, so it's so much more relaxing. Travelling lighter. Travelling lighter, that's the words I was looking for. And often I find myself, when I feel tight, you know, if I just relax, it makes it so much easier to drop the. The. The. The. The bullshit. The bullshit. So to speak, you know, the bullshit. Yeah. But there needs to, for here there was, yes, I know that conceptually, but it's to know what, what exactly and precisely I'm relaxing. Not just a word relax, it's like, what is it that I'm willing to, that's disappearing, that's dissolving, what is it?

And that's part of the investigation. What is it? Not just this kind of word surrender. It's, it's a willingness to die. Yes. That's scary. I used to work with this guy years ago. I used to work with this guy years ago who, who was an intern on Joellen, you know anything. And, you know, we were just talking about life itself, you know, this and that and family and blah, blah. He said, he said, I think the two things I've learnt in my life is it's a very freeing thing sometimes when you realise you're wrong. And another thing is that you never have to be free.

You never have to defend yourself. And, you know, I know that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but what it means here in this context is there's no one to defend and other people may be able to teach this something, you know, like as in, you know, there might be a concept of something, someone might come along and point and say, wow, you know. I like that better. There's a spontaneous attracting to that, you know, if you hear what I'm saying. Yeah. Imagine, imagine if, you're going to have to imagine. That's what I was thought. Yeah. Imagine if you can that every single solitary problem that we believe we have somehow in an instant all got resolved.

Yeah. There was no absolutely not one problem left. Somehow it just all got resolved. Okay. So there's that. Then coupled with that, there's absolutely no desire left for anything. Zip. There's no want for anything. So all problems have ceased and there's no want for anything. Zero want for anything. So you can kind of imagine what that might be like because we're talking about this bliss before. Imagine what that might be like. Yeah. And then given, let's say that that's occurred, no desire left or problems have ceased completely gone. And then cup add onto that, that for the next couple of weeks, not a single solitary thought that's going to run between your ears.

Zip, nutter. And it's just going to be really still and quiet. Why wouldn't it be? There'd be no problems. There's no desire. There's no want. There's no lack of anything. So it's all that has occurred. Plus not a single thought is going to run through your mind for the next couple of weeks. How would that be? Imagination you're going to have to use, but how would that be? Oh, 10 to 3. Oh, you're good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. What do you think you said? Oh, we'll all attend the funeral.

Well you're good. Oh, 10 to 3 Say it again, Bob. I said, we'll all attend the funeral. It wouldn't be even boring because that's a thought. Correct. It wouldn't be quiet either. That's a thought. We have to use our imagination. All of the problems that we believe we have, they're all, they're all related to this idea that we have about the future and the future. It's the future, not the future. It's the future. The future. And there's something about this idea that it's a theory. It's a theory that we're trying to realize. What's the theory? personal, imagined problems. My problems don't affect someone else. They're here.

They're all here. All manifesting and happening here. If it was a real problem, in reality, everyone would be being affected. And everything would be being affected. It's not. It's just this little circus that goes on in here. And it's all imagined. It's a good way of describing it. It's all imagined. All of it is imagined. We take it to be real. Nothing can trouble you except your own imagination, what you are imaging. What is the hardest job in the world? Trying to make a fire out of one-ended sticks. Yeah, that'd be tough. I tried to bring some back from India for you, Bob, but they were fresh out.

Been a run on them lately. I've been waiting a long time for them. So we're going to wait a long time for the fire. Pure Indian one-ended sticks. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.