This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any mind. I'm not talking to that body-mind The Nisargadatta tells us that we are not that separate entity, that individual. You're not talking about any hooks either. Straighten out your hooks and we'll figure that out. So, you've got other terms, hooks and Rings, straight out your hooks, where are they going to lodge? Everything falls away. What they call nonduality, and it seems to be the great thing these days is nonduality, going around. Going around, what's nonduality? It implies that there's, they point it out by saying it's one without a second, not two. So, it's what they're simply saying, that everything is that one.
And there can't be anything other than one. If there's anything other than one, it's gone into, moved out of nonduality into the many. So it's one essence, patterning, shaping, forming and expressing is everything. A lot of religions say that God, call it God, and they'll all basically at the start, The We call it Father, Son and Holy Ghost, divided into the three. That there is only that one essence that's patterning, shaping and forming this manifestation. And have a look at that, where's that appearing? Can you postulate or think of anything that could be outside of space? If you could postulate a thing, what's it in?
When you say this is outside of space, what's it in then? You must realise that nothing can happen outside of that emptiness. And the Buddha's called the cognising emptiness. Not that we are cognising the emptiness, that's the way we take it. I used to think that I am cognising the emptiness. The It's in this knowingness that the form starts to appear, or pattern shapes and forms appear. And he turned it around and said the form can be nothing other than emptiness, pointing out that we haven moved out of it nothing moved away from it It all that emptiness appearing as other And what appearance Appearance is a phenomenal expression or understanding or manifestation.
And if the emptiness is form and the form is emptiness, It must be that emptiness itself that is cognising it. It's appearing in it. So that emptiness or no-thingness is seemingly suffused with that effulgent or light or intelligence in which pattern shapes and forms. There's a subtle vibration in it, The Nisargad We've got this idea we are these separate entities, these individuals, these persons. But they tell you, a lot of the scriptures will tell you, the person is not the reality. Where did the word person come from? Where did that word person come from? It comes from persona, the mask, I think it is in Latin.
So we've taken on this idea of person and made it this, labelled it on this body-mind as a separate entity. It's not recognising, it's the conceptual image or mask we've got about ourselves, a mask of concepts, and we take that to be real. And we seemingly function from that point of view and get locked in all the psychological problems, The problems, the fear and anger and all the rest of it, that are with us most of the time. Instead of being in the natural state, what's the natural state mean? As in nature. Now does nature know anything about a god or a separate entity at all?
All of these things are going on. And in that manifestation, there can be tsunamis, droughts, ice ages, all sorts of things, volcanoes exploding and imploding, all sorts of things going on in it. But unless we're prepared to go through it, we can't go through it. We can't go through it. There's lots of things going on in it. But unless we're putting these labels on and taking them to be separate and far from it, has nature itself ever been corrupted or contaminated by it? As I say, I'm not talking to anybody, I'm not talking to any mind, that's where I started off. I'm talking to that I am, that I am.
What's that I am? Isn't it the sense of presence, the knowing that you are? How could you say you are present or aware or knowing right now? You've got to say I am. That's the primary thought, a vibration, a sound. Translating the thought I am. You can't do much with I am on its own. What can you do with it? You got to put words or labels on them I Bob I an Australian I this I that I the other I unhappy I sad I fearful I miserable All these words are added onto it to give it some substance I am of itself is just a sound Got no substance of any independent nature whatsoever.
So we put this, we learn other words. And that's what you need to understand, that every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been learnt. It's been acquired along the way. Go back as far as you remember. Can you remember your birth? You can't remember your birth because you had no words at that stage. You can't remember the growing in the womb. And you cannot remember anything about your life till you're about two, two and a half years old when the capacity of reason developed. That's part of it. And the next three or four videos I will share will be on this.
We will be taking a look at our current state in the next few weeks. And some of you may have seen us and someone else in the next three weeks and the next week. And for those that may be in some moments of crisis that you are finding yourself in I've got another question coming in. What do you think? Are you this body-mind entity that we believe ourselves? Are you the body? Innately you know you're not the body. You say, my body. Don't you say my house, my car, my coat. You know you're not the house, the car or the coat. Maybe when you look at it you're not the body either.
Taking ourselves to be this body. Are you this mind? Question from someone who is watching with us and he is asking Oshiyar. Yeah, that's a question for Bob. You aren't a person, then how do you see in the same way you are this cognising emptiness? If you know you are not the body, you did the investigation and you are not the body, you are not the mind, you are not whatever. How you jump from what you are not to what you are to land at cognising emptiness? Well you always were the cognising emptiness and not jumping from what you're not to what it is. It's just discarding what you are not.
The seemingly covered it over. You've always been that in that life. Can you, you know, can you negate your beingness? Yeah. Everyone in this room knows that they are. Yeah, I guess that the cognizing emptiness may be confusing. Yeah, the thing is we cannot actually know who we are. The label awareness, the label cognizing emptiness, the label love or God or being, they're all labels. To actually figure out who we are, we will have to vacate ourselves and then we wouldn't be who we are, I am, not who I am. I Am, not I Am emptiness, or I Am cognizing, or I Am Self, or I Am awareness.
No, those all are labels and all, as Bob said in the beginning, the word is not the thing. You're not cognizing emptiness or awareness or love or God. You're not. You don't know who you are. You will never know. You only know that you are. Stay with what you know. Just bath in that being, in that sense of presence, because that's the only fact. I am the mind the rest is a story So we are not the body we are not the mind we are not ultimately we are everything and nothing And trying to identify a label or obtain the knowledge or figure out what we are is impossible because where do I look from at what I am I would have to be outside myself to define my labels or limits or boundaries.
I can't do that. Because I am defining an object now and not the subject. So pure subjectivity is undefinable. It is experiencing right now. Not what is experiencing, but the fact that it is experiencing. So because we are all being right now, that's the answer. I am. Everyone is. That's it. Who, what, who cares? Nisargadatta says give yourself no name and no shape, no shape, no form. Can't negate your beingness, can't tell me what it is either. And also that, because there is this popular question that is hated by every seeker, who wants to know or who cares? It sounds like, you know, somebody has this genuine beautiful curiosity, I do want to find out who I am.
Who wants to know? That sounds like a slap in the face. But this question is actually can be really if it's put out with the compassion, it is a beautiful question because it actually brings you back to the core of where is that curiosity coming from? Who is that questioner? Who is the one who is so genuinely in love with the truth that wants to find out who I am? They told me I'm cognizing emptiness. Okay, how do I find out? How do I experience that? This is a beautiful stream of devotion towards the truth. This is the investigation. When I ask who wants to know, I'm not slapping anyone in the face.
I'm actually encouraging, have a look. Have a look because this is really where the answer sits. See who is that one who is longing for the truth. Who is that? Perhaps you find just the longing, just the desire to find out to who I am. Just that genuine stream of devotional love for the truth, who I am. Is there anyone on the end of the feeling? It's just like seeing, like Bob was saying, seeing divided by the seer and the sin, while there is just seeing happening. Now the longing is happening. Is there anyone on one end of the longing and anyone on the other?
Or is it just the movement, just the genuine desire to find out the truth? Who wants to know? Who is the questioner? Who is there desiring to experience the cognizing emptiness? And see if there is anyone there. Because if there is anyone there, it's obviously not you, because you're looking at it. So who is looking? And now you can find out there is the movement, the desire, the longing happening in who you are, The emptiness that is cognizing it, the emptiness that is knowing about that movement. That's why we call it cognizing emptiness, because it's the space in which the longing or movement or desire for the truth happens.
And it is known, so it is the knowing about it, because the desire is visible, is kind of cognized. So now the question, how am I to identify myself as cognizing emptiness? I don't have to do that anymore because I'm the activity of awareness of the desire to find out who wants to know. And this is to be experienced and this is to be rewarded because I did hear that question, who cares? As a slap someone superior, you don't get it. Yeah, you see, you asking questions. This is part of the process of the inquiry process, part of the seeking that is really precious
And really delicious.
I kind of miss it at times. I can only have it right now through other people asking those questions. Who wants to know? Who is so curious about the true nature of things? Who wants to find out this pure subjectivity? Who wants to actually... because we're so accustomed to labeling everything. When I label things, I think I know what it is and I don't have to be afraid of it. So I want to know who I am too. Like then, you know, maybe my fear will subside. But who wants to know? And who is the I? Now we have one who wants to know and one who wants to be known.
Again, the split. Like who wants to know who? It's, yeah, it's laughable, it is. It's actually funny, it's sweet. But it's genuine, it feels so real. Tell us who and what I am. We're hoping that someone is going to be able to tell me who or what I am. And that's why we continue to ask questions. And that pointer that Kat was just referring to, who wants to know, is real. Like that's far more real than any question that we could pose. Far more real. Yeah, okay, there's a question that seems to be a questioner there. Let's focus on that rather than answering your question, hoping that you're going to get some answer that's going to wake you up.
Or have you realized who and what you are? It can't be, it can't be described. Wouldn't matter what answer one was given in relation to who you are, you're not gonna buy it. Because it's got to be your own direct experience to know. You've gotta see it. You've gotta see it. So wouldn't matter what anybody said. So, oh, I don't know, what's the difference between awareness and consciousness? I mean, fuck, we could sit there for ages chatting about that, or we could get to the real point. Who wants to know that question? Anything that you say, you're just really feeding the dream. Particularly the, you know, the seeker's dream, you're just feeding it.
What they'll do is they'll... what we do is we grab onto different ideas and different concepts and tuck it away in our head and go, yeah, okay, I've got that. And then eventually people get to a point where they go, okay, I've seen all this stuff, I understand I'm not the mind, I'm not the body, I'm not the feelings, I'm not anything, anything, anything, anything, but I still feel like I'm here. Why do you think that is? It's just... As long as I can accumulate knowledge. Correct. It's purely an intellectual understanding at that point because it will make sense. It all totally makes sense. Yet, me still feels like I'm here.
Where the f... where do you go from there? I nearly said it, didn't I? But really... Yeah, but where do you go from there? Where do you go when you've exhausted the intellect, you've looked at all the pointers, you can see the pointers, yet you still feel like you're here? Which is, I don't know where else you expect to find yourself, by the way. Like really. So where do you go, brother? I am the one here It the dropping away of the self It not the self realizing something or claiming something or getting something It not That why we ask the question, if a question gets posed, who wants to know that answer?
Yeah. And yet some people who are asking the question, they don't want to hear that. I know. I am here and who are you? Take it back to whoever. We are aware of the fact that we are aware of thoughts, the fact that we are aware of the body, the fact that we are aware. The mistake that we make is that we assume that it's me that is aware. That's right. It's me that can see thoughts. It's me that can experience feelings. It's me that experiences the body and it ain't There's not there's literally not a me there, but that's the mistake we make I'm yeah sure.
Yeah, I can be aware that thoughts come and go Now that's not that there's not awareness of thoughts coming and going because there is awareness The problem is we believe it's me and that me that believes it's aware and it's seeing and it's blah blah blah. That needs to be investigated. And that's another part of the mind. Yeah, the mind isn't it? That needs to be looked at. That needs to be looked at. It's one thing to come to an understanding and you do come to the understanding because you see it. I am a person who is aware of the fact that there is a lot of information.
I am aware of the fact that there is a lot of information. So that me that believes it's aware of that needs to be investigated. That's what needs to be looked at. The fact that there is awareness aware of that is true. The problem is we believe that there's an entity here and it's my awareness and I'm aware of that. Find that that entity that's claiming ownership of the This is my awareness, this is my seeing, this is my hearing, this is my body, this is my, my, my, my, my. Myself, that's the worship. Think as a person and see. That's the old persona again.
Well, you could say there is a point in a way, I mean of course it's just kind of positive thinking type of a thing, because there is no point really other than from the fact that you didn't have any saying, I am conditioned to think you are an entity and you are kind of destined to think you are an entity. And many people don't even have the option to wake up from that dream, from that illusion that they are an entity. But some who do, when they wake up, they see the point, oh shit, if I didn't believe to be a separate entity, I would never ever be capable of experiencing the oneness.
Because oneness can only be experienced from its opposites. So if you think you are limited and you realize that, oh my gosh, I'm not, now the experience is changing. So one could say provisionally to experience freedom you have to go to the cage first. But it is only a story because there is no usefulness really. I mean, animals don't experience the separation of the ego. And it doesn't mean that they are, you know, that there is, they're missing the point or they're losing a functionality of it. Because there are people who also believe that ego has a functionality. And of course they're probably right because they define the ego as personality structure.
They say oh my ego is actually my reasoning capacity or my ego is my language So it depends how they define the word But in the way we are using the word the imagined separate self of course it doesn have functionality I am the language The It's an after story because there is no other way. I mean to say if something could have been different is a dream again because it couldn't. That's the way it is. That's the way it appears. Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful if some of the teachers are promising seekers that, you know, when the collective awakening happened and we will all be enlightened, there won't be any worse.
Well, that's a dream again. This is not what is happening. This is just another illusion, another dream, which actually makes people pay, which is not a bad idea, because that's how life expresses too. That's how life brings them, makes them interested into inquiries. There's nothing wrong, they are no wrong, they're just life, they're not the doers. But the truth is, experientially, this is it. There's nothing else. There's no future, there's no past, there's no other dream, there's no possibility for having no separate self. I am not separate self if I experience one. There is no possibility to have one if I don't. It's just what it is.
I believed I had separate self few years ago and I was concerned what I'm eating tomorrow. And now I don't believe I have separate self and I'm still doing just the same. It's like the doing happens. Whether the belief is there that the entity is doing it or there is no belief that entity is doing. Life looks just the same, just the same. The seeing is the same, the hearing, the thinking, the habits, even the way Bob, 42 years of clarity, moving his hands the same way he always did, but only the belief is missing. That there is someone there inside, some little entity, some dwarf or whatever it is, a phantom that is doing it.
What part of that body that's sitting there in that chair right now, or anybody in this room for that matter, but what part of that body sitting in that chair right now is saying, I feel separate and I'm scared? Your foot, your hand, your arm, your butt, your right leg, your left leg, your neck, your ear, your nose. What part of that body is freaking out saying, I'm separate, I'm scared, I'm isolated? Not one single part of it is. Zero. So the body actually in reality isn't separate from anything. But there's an idea or a notion in here that says I am this body and it's the notion in here, it's an idea that there's separation.
There's a belief that there's separation. And because this I am this, this is mine. All of this is just verbiage When you actually see it, you will still experience 99% of people in the world coming back from the sense of separate self because that's how it appears to be. It seems like we are the only species with that reasoning capacity and the byproduct of reasoning capacity, which is the labeling, it kind of separates the whole appearance. And yeah, well, and it produces stories. And for the awareness experiencing itself as a form, as a thought, as a sound, as a whatever, experiencing itself as a story is thrilling.
So if 99% of human forms will stay identified and will be buying on to thousand stories per minute, well that's thrilling for the awareness. In certain points of consciousness it may actually see the story for what they are, the stories, and in other points of consciousness it may go totally for the ride. Why not? Why not? It sounds unfair from the human perspective. Okay, I'm a person, I want to wake up and I can't. That's unfair. But I'm not a person. It is just a dream. Awareness is dreaming. So from the ultimate perspective, there's nothing wrong if someone doesn't wake up. There's nothing wrong if awareness has that point of experiencing thousand stories per minute.
This morning, oh my gosh, I'm feeling ugly, I'm stupid, I'm unworthy. And then somebody tells me a compliment, oh my god, I'm not so bad, I'm actually doing quite well. Story about me. Now, okay, but my neighbors, oh she didn't say good morning, she must be hating me. Now, you know, this is all possible when you believe you are a separate self. And you obsessing about yourself and everything happened for yourself. So now, as a consciousness, what a thrill! I can't do it anymore. I can't do it. Consciousness in this point is just so much more dead comparing to the ego that is so turned apart to so many different movies.
You're right. You're doing very good. So you can actually, by waking up, lose all that thrill. But as a human pattern you lose nothing, you just lose suffering. But as a consciousness you're actually giving up on all that drama. Yeah, and you experience, of course, experiences right now are much more juicy and full without that drama because so much more attention is actually with what is going on right now. With the senses, with hearing, seeing, everything, the colors, the sounds, the sky, they are so much more beautiful in a way because they actually really acknowledged, they've seen. Whilst few years ago, I didn't really notice that much because I was too busy obsessing about myself, what I think and other think and whatever.
So this was just kind of a shift into a different experience of the world. In one hand nothing changes and in the other hand everything changes because of that subtle shift which kind of brings the attention, releases the attention from that trap of self-obsession. As Jane was saying, that self-centred that you actually manufacture and you hold on and you put so much investment and so much energy into keeping that jacket, that sort of a coat of identity on. That whole energy is released, is free. Not only you travel lighter, but that attention is free now. To actually love itself in everything it sees. To smell the roses and to just be alive.