Sailor Bob - Non Duality - Message over the messenger 2 12 18

Okay, we're ready to start. If you could say your names. Tony. Tony. Tony. Tony. And I'm Kat. Bob, everybody knows Bob. We'll go through the whole spiel. A lot of you have heard it many times. If you haven't heard it before, point out what we're on about. Mainly, we don't teach you anything here, and we don't tell you anything. Understand that right from the start. When you realise what we're talking about, you realise that nobody can teach you anything, and nobody can tell you. We're actually, what you believe you are, you are not that. That's not anything new we point to. That's all we do, ask you to point to it, and ask you to look to see for yourself.

You'll see it's the base of all the ancient traditions that have been around for thousands of years. They've all got their different take on it, and it gets obscured in the different interpretations and things. And the other way I put it is I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. I'm not speaking to that so-called believed in person as you might think you are. I'm speaking to that I am that I am. And the I am is not referring to a personal self. The I am, the I am that expresses through everyone is a sense of presence. There's nobody who's not aware of being present right now.

That presence awareness is right where you are right now, right with you. Sense of presence. Putting the labels on, putting the words on it, we call it I or me or I am that's present. So it's nothing new. You'll see it in all the great traditions I've seen before. In Hinduism they call it Advaita. Advaita translated means non-duality. And they try to describe non-duality by saying it's one without a second, not two. And they put that one without a second because even the idea or concept or belief in one, implies that there could be other than one. And if you look deeply into the lot of the scriptures, you'll see it's not.

There's not. In Hebrew it's saying, the Lord thy God is one God. There is nothing other. It means exactly that. And they'll say it's, other times they'll say it's omnipresent, omnipotence, omniscience. Omnipresence is total presence. It doesn't leave room for anything, any concept or belief. Any idea inside it. Omnipotence, not mind power, thought power, your power or my power, or a higher power or a lower power. A total power. An omniscience. A total intelligence. Have a look around you at this manifestation as you see it. All these human forms in this room. And all the trees outside, the flowers, the space, the sky, animals, birds and insects.

Doesn't it imply there is an amazing, wondrous intelligence suffusing everything? What they're pointing to, directly, is there is nothing other than that. You are that. There's nothing separate and apart from it. The Buddhists will tell you it's non-conceptual, ever fresh, presence awareness. And add on to that just this, nothing else. I mean absolutely, nothing else. There's not you and me and all these manifestations. And the Buddhists will also tell you that this manifestation is Maya. It's illusion. It's a phenomenal manifestation. It's illusion. It's a phenomenal manifestation. Look up the dictionary, look up the word phenomena. The definition of phenomena is that which appears to be.

So you, I and everything else that's appearing or seeming to be, that's all it is. A phenomenal manifestation. Like the water in the mirage, like the rainbow, like the blue in the ocean, like the blue in the sky. They're not there when you look at them. We've taken the belief that they are, then taken it to be real. And these human pattern, shapes and forms, we've taken the belief it's you and me. And you'll hear that too. That we call God or the higher, God the higher power or the supreme being. And don't we call ourselves human beings? Take off the label supreme, take off the label human.

Try and separate the beingness in this room. And you are being. It's being you, it's being me, it's being the carpet, it's being the chair, it's being everything in this room, which we've put labels or words on. And that's what they tell you to do. That's what they tell you in the Bible. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, the Word was God. That's all God is, is a Word. Nothing was made without the Word. All things were made by the Word. By the so-called God. We take that to be real. And have a look at that. When did you learn any words?

Didn't you pick up words when you were about two, two and a half? You weren't born with any words. You can't remember your birth. You were living, being then, without the Word. We put the label on all this manifestation, all these appearances, and that's all we are, appearances. Labels are words. Words are labels. And have a look at the Word. You'll realize the Word's not the real. It's not the thing. Take the word water. Can you drink the Word? Can you drink it? Can you swim in it? Does the word fire burn your mouth? Can you cook with it? Can you heat yourself with it?

So what's this word, I or me? If you look into it, it mightn't be what you believed it to be. And that's another thing you need to look at too. Belief. Look up your dictionary of the definition of belief. That's a definition of, that's an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. Acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge or proof. Or question some of your beliefs and see if they'll fit into them. We believe this and we believe that. Going back to what the Hindus call it, they call it Advaita, and they try to describe Advaita. The five factors of Hinduism are Sat Chitta Nanda, Nama Rupa.

Sat is existence, Chitta is conscious. Nanda is the loving to be. They call it the bliss of being or loving to be. And the other two, Nama Rupa, are the names. Name and form. And they'll tell you that the name and form are Maya, or illusion. Appearance only. We put names and forms. And have a look at all this manifestation. We put names and forms on it. Can you separate it without the label? Without the name or the form? You realize you can't without the word. What can you say? What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? What can you say about it without a thought?

And realize, while you were forming in the womb, you didn't have any words. So how can you say that you, as the entity, did something? For the first two years of your life, you didn't have any words. So that's why you can't remember your birth. You don't remember that capacity of reasoning you had developed in you until you've learned words. Your parents tell you, good little Johnny, you're a good boy, you're this, that and the other. Then you went to school and they educated you with more words, more labels. School, society, nation. Everybody around you has been putting these words on you. And as I say, when you see the word, it's not the real.

We've learned words and believed in the word. So for that first two years of your life when you didn't have any words, you were breathing, your heart was beating, your hair and your fingernails were growing, a livingness was happening, but you can't remember it. You don't remember anything until you're about two years of age. Somewhere around, it might be before that or a little bit after when you started to reason. When did you begin? If you can't say, you say I was born but nobody can remember your birth, when did you begin? We'll go back as far as your father and your mother. That animating life essence, that intelligence energy, that pattern shaped and formed your father.

Through the prana, the air he breathes and the food eaten. Another thing, enabled in that pattern a little microscopic particle called a sperm to form. You can't see it with your naked eye. And the same animating life essence, that pattern shaped and formed your mother, enabled in that pattern another little microscopic particle called an ovum or an egg to form. You can't see that with the naked eye. But both those two little microscopic particles were suffused with an innate intelligence. The ovum wasn't floating around accidentally or willingly in the body, it attached itself to the wall of the uterus. And the sperm wasn't just another blob of goo.

It swam to the ovum, it was suffused with intelligence, it knew what to do. It swam to the ovum and it penetrated the ovum. And when those two came together, what happened? That innate intelligence in those two, and the genes in those two patterns, doubled those cells, doubled them again and the little embryo, the little fetus began to form. What were you doing about it then if you think you were born and living this life? Did you have a brain? Yet you were living then. That same pattern you are today is living and growing. And so it is. But, like they say again in the scriptures, this manifestation, maya, illusion, it's transient.

It's constantly changing. And have a look at it. Isn't that so? You haven't got the same body. You can go back and remember a few years ago, and you can't remember your birth, but it's constantly changing. You haven't got the same body you walked into this room with a few minutes ago, or half an hour ago, whatever it was. There are thousands of cells dying in it right now and being replaced. You can't say it's the same. Yet we've taken on the belief that it is. And not only taken on the belief, but we've added on to it different concepts and ideas, and personalised it.

Made it a seeming separate entity, or a person. And that's when our sense of separation comes about. When we've taken on these words and believed that I am this conceptual image, this person. I am Bob, the Australian, the good fella. I had a bad childhood, unhappy, abused, or a good childhood, or whatever it might be. Depressed, guilty, jealous, envy. All these things come about because they're related to that personal, conceptual image I've got. And that image you've got about yourself is what we call the ego, the self-centre, or the reference point. And we can understand then why they tell you that ego is the problem.

Because what we believe in the ego, that's a dead image. That image you've got about yourself is based on the past. It's not based on what is right now. What is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, just as it is in this moment. And this moment is constantly transient, changing. But we're constantly relating to this dead image. No wonder we can't keep up with life. Life is constantly moving and changing. So we learn words from our parents. Take the words to be real, and form this conceptual image. I'm Bob, the Australian, blah, blah, blah. And everything becomes relative to this image. So you see, all our problems are problems of relationship.

Not just the male-female relationship we were so much important to and causes so much seeming trouble. But every relationship, relative to whatever you're relating to, is duality. And as we pointed out at the start, there is absolutely no duality in non-duality. Just as it is. It's neither dual or non-dual. It's just what is. So it forms conceptual image. And everything becomes relative to that image. Have a look at that and see how it works. Something comes up and I like it. How do you know? Well, I've experienced this before, and it's good. And we don't want the good things to go. And not realizing they're transient.

No matter how much you love them, how much you want to keep them there, how much you want to hang on to them, they're going to change. They'll die, leave you, go away, or something else. But it's constant transient, constant changing. We don't want it to go, so what do we do? We resist it. Trying to keep it there. Don't you realize that resistance is conflict? You are in resistance with something, you're in conflict with it. And conflict makes you uneasy, makes you anxious, makes you fearful, makes you depressed. In other words, a label on the conflict is unease or dis-ease. So relationship is resistance, conflict, and dis-ease.

What happens when it turns the other way? Something comes up that I don't like. Well, I immediately jump on that, try and get rid of it, try and force it out. Again, I'm resisting it from being there. Again in conflict, and again in dis-ease. So you see, this conceptual me, or I, that I believe myself to be, is the cause of all my psychological suffering. Me is the cause. And the anxiety, the fear, the depression, the guilt, the shame, remorse, jealousy, envy, they're all the effects of the cause, me. And isn't that what so-called karma is? Cause and effect? What happens if I ask myself, if I'm not relating to a cause, what effect can there be?

You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out. If you're not relating to a cause, there can't be any effect. It's just as it is. And it's free to move on. But when we're relating to this cause, me, trying to alter it, modify it, correct it, we keep it there. And it can go on for days, years, weeks, and months. We beat ourselves up with the word. And I've pointed out before that word is not the real. You can't drink the word water. You can't burn yourself with the word fire. So look at this word, I or me. Is that what you are?

The word we've learned. Have a look and see how real that is. When we ask you to look along these lines, see for yourself. Investigation is what needs to happen. A bit of investigation. Cause the false cannot stand up to investigation. All these erroneous beliefs that we've lived in for years, when they're investigated, they'll fall apart. Because they're not the actual. Just the same as you go down to the ocean. I say, get me a bucket of blue sea out of there, blue water out of the ocean. You say, don't be stupid. You've investigated that and say, no, the water's not blue, but it still appears to be blue.

But you know the truth about it. And then we do that the same in Christmas time. We form, got the concept right here, a belief in Santa Claus. We tell the kids this. Who would believe it today? Nobody. But it still happens because the kids got some pleasure. We got some pleasure out of it. So we went in there for the kids. But you and I know the truth about it. And the kids will soon learn the truth about it. Years ago when people stood on the shore where the sea and sky met, they said, don't go out there, you'll fall off the edge of the earth because it looks like the end of the earth when you look out there.

Who would believe that today? Nobody. Because they investigated and see that the earth is not flat, as it was believed then. The earth is round. So all we need to do is question these beliefs and see for yourself. If they're not the truth, they'll fall apart. And we've hung on to so many of them over the years. We're very enforced with our schools, our parents and everybody else around us because 99.9% of the world out there are coming from that point of view. The belief in this me, self-centered. But those that have seen through it over the years, that's where the big religions, the great religions have formed around them.

Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslimism, Jewish, all have formed around this belief in what somebody has pointed out down through the years. What have they done? What have we done? We've set up this one that's pointed it out as the saint, the saviour, sage or a seer or a messiah or whatever. And we've worshipped the messenger and missed out on the message that he was pointing to us. So that's what we need to go. We ask you to look at this self-centered and see that there's a fiction to it this way. Everybody is seeing right now. Isn't that a fact? When you opened your eyes this morning, did you say, now I'm going to start seeing?

You didn't. The seeing was there immediately. You didn't have to say, I'm seeing or anything like that. And that's been there right up until you got here. And the same with the hearing. When you opened your eyes this morning and woke up, the hearing was there. So the seeing and the searing are happening. And the thought comes up, I see. So the thought comes up, I see, you're relating it to this conceptual image. It's me, Bob, the so-called entity that thinks it's seeing now. The thought comes up, I hear. Again, it's the same conceptual image. The God of our self thinks it's hearing. But ask yourself this.

Does my eye tell me I see? Does my eye tell me I see? You realise you're seeing through the eye. The eye is the instrument from which you see through. And it's translated by the thought, I see. The same with the hearing. You're hearing happening through the ears. But it's the ear saying, listen to this, listen to that, that's good, that's not so good. You realise the eye and the ear cannot say anything at all. And see, they prove it to yourself that they can't see. The eye can't see. And the ear can't say, I hear. And the eye can't say, I see. But that's how it's translated.

So the eye is the instrument through which the seeing is happening. And it's translated by the thought, I see. And the ear is the instrument through which the hearing is happening. And what's translating then? Isn't that the word or the concept we've learnt? When I pointed out you were born, that life as essence came into the body, through the sperm and the ovum, and it's that life essence that's been living you, growing you, living you. It's that life essence that's utilising the brain, the eyes, the ears, the heart, the lungs and everything else to live through. The thought, I see, look at it. That thought, I see.

Can a thought see? Close your eyes and look around the room. With your eyes closed and see what you can see in the room with a thought. You can imagine it and all the rest of it. But you can't see anything with the eye, through the eye of the thought. The same with the ear. Put your block off your ears and see what you can hear with the thought. The thought, I see, can't see. The thought, I hear, can't be aware. Is anybody unaware right in this room, moment? And you recognise, no, I'm not unaware. There is, awareness is there. You're not unaware, so you must be aware.

So if you think there's an entity or there's body, you're doing all those things, take that life essence out of the body and see what it can do without that life essence of suffusing it. Can a corpse see? Can a corpse hear? Can a corpse breathe? Can it beat its heart? It can't do anything at all. It's the pattern through which all these things express through and it's a wonderful intelligent pattern. But it's that life essence of self that's pouring, oh, pouring through it or emanating through it, that's beating your heart, growing your hair and your fingernails, digesting your food. Making you take that breath you just took.

It's causing the earth to roll around the sun, the tides to come in and out, the winter, summer and all the seasons to come. It's intelligence that's forming those galaxies out there. It's causing all these things to happen. The innate intelligence is functioning and expressing through everything as that one essence, expressing and appearing through everything. And that is what you actually are. But see how we've belittled ourselves, compressed ourselves into this little human form and think we're going to change the world and run the thing through it. Recognise the life essence in it. That's the reality of you. That'll do everything that's needed to be done, which it has done anyway.

And Christ told you that years ago. He says, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, what you shall drink, what you shall wear. Your Father knoweth you have needed these things. Your Father's a good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Look at the birds in the air. They don't sow crops or reap it and put all the grains in the barns and collect it all. They don't. The lilies in the field, he says, even Solomon and all his glory is not arrayed like one of these. Couldn't get the colours and the beauty in them. And it's that same intelligence that's breeding. It's beating your heart.

It's growing your hair and your fingernails. It's replacing cells in your body. It's digesting your food. And Shakespeare told you that two or three hundred years ago. He's another one that recognized it. He says, nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And the Sarcadatta will tell you there's nothing can trouble you. And he means exactly that. Nothing at all can ever trouble you except in your own imagination. Break that word imagination down to image in. Imagine. And realize that's all we're doing. We're making conceptual or mental images. Taking them to be real, putting the concept of a belief that they're real into them.

And beating ourselves up with the words. The concepts and the ideas. Pointed out that that ego is a fiction. Got no substance or any independent nature. And anyone stop breathing because of that? Has their heart stopped beating because of that? Or so? But aren't you going to look at life from a different point of view? Seeing it as it actually is? This pattern we call the body-mind can be utilized, can be used. It's a wondrous pattern. But when we take it to be a separate entity, an individual, a person, it's utilizing us. I use the analogy, it's like taking a bucket of water out of the river.

Pull a bucket of water out of the river, sit it on the bank. What's happened to that water? It becomes stagnant. Still, it's gone. What's happened to the river? It's flowing along. It might be going through forests, it might be going through sandy banks, it might be going down rapids. It might be in places where it's pretty even and it's hardly moving at all. It's flowing until it reaches the sea. But the bucket of water is stagnant, sitting on the bank. We've encased ourselves in a bucket of concepts, beliefs. And we stay in them. And we're not keeping up with life. Life is constantly leaving us behind.

And life is only in this moment. It's got no duration to it. And that's another thing, look at it, look at time. And see that time is a mental concept. There is no past unless you think about it. Have a look at it. There's no future unless you think about it. But you'll say, I was in the past. I'll say, alright, go back and live a minute ago. Try and live last week, try and live... You can't. Because it's gone, it's finished, it's dead. You can recall it. And the only actuality you're giving is what you're giving it right now. Because nobody can tell me what you thought of a minute ago now, unless you're recalling it.

And you can anticipate and imagine the future, but you can't live a moment in the future. And the anticipation and imagination can go on right now when you're anticipating what you're going to do when you leave here and all the rest of it. So when you recognise that, that time is a mental concept, and it's spontaneous. Because if you ask yourself, when does now begin, you'll say, if you're going to try and capture it, you'll say it's beginning right now. But even as you said that, you realise it's ending. So it's a spontaneous emanation. It's constantly changing. It's transient, as they say. And relax and settle into that.

That's where the freedom is. That's where the peace is. And that's where the joy, the bliss of being, the love of being is, in that essence. People look for peace of mind. But you'll never ever get peace of mind. Because the nature of the mind is to vibrate. So when's vibrating a different thought? That's why the ancients told you that. They said they call it the peace that passes all understanding. Because there's no use to try and understand it or grasp it with a thought or a concept, because you can't. The peace is when the mind is not. Go to sleep at night. Unless you're not in a dream, isn't there a peaceful state then when there's no thinking going on?

Sit, drop into a silent, thoughtless state. I don't say meditate by trying to meditate, but just naturally drop into it. That's where peace is. And the satchitananda, the nama rupa, is that. I am that. That's the Mahavaka, it was a great mantra. I am that. Thou art that. This is that. Look at it and you'll see everything is that. Which we put labels or words on. That's a chair. That's the carpet. That's the bird. That's the mirror. That's the tree. That's the flower. It is all that. Without the life. And that is the life essence. The one intelligence energy that is patterning, shaping and forming this manifestation.

And when you say I am that next time, put a different light on it. Realize you are that life. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. That's what Christ told you again. He wasn't talking about himself. He was talking about that sense of presence that translates through the mind as the thought I am. So that's what we point to and ask you to look along those lines. People in this room have looked along those lines and can understand them. But if you've got any doubts, any questions or any arguments, bring them out. Because remember what I believe is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason.

Put it to the test. So away you go. You want to say something to them? You've covered it up pretty well. You're on fire. Yeah. Okay, so I'll add something. That's my job here. I'm a backup. When Bob runs out of words, I maybe kickstart him again. We'll see if it works. Yeah, so some people are actually uneasy about it. They come and want to listen to Bob. And then suddenly somebody else is taking over. And they're not happy because who am I? I'm nobody. They pay to see Bob or they want to see Bob and hear Bob. And I'm nobody. But here is a good news.

He's nobody also. And all of you, you are nobody as well. Whether you believe you are the body or you believe you are something that is inside the body, that's just a belief as he said a minute ago. Question it. Because belief is unquestioned acceptance of something. Once it's questioned, you can see through that, yes, I am nobody. Yes, he is nobody. So are you. I mean being, he said also, one essence, the oneness, the not two, the one infinite being. Infinite cognizing emptiness or space-like awareness. That oneness appearing in many diverse forms, in many patterns, appearing as different forms, different bodies, different thought forms, different sensations, different perceptions is still the one essence.

So if you are already that one essence, you have to be that undivided cognizing emptiness. Emptiness, another word for it, is nothing. So, yes, I don't have a name. I'm not famous and I'm speaking about that. And a lot of people hate it, believe me, because they think they know Bob longer and they should be sitting here. But, yeah, we got to trust that his evaluation is probably more correct than theirs. And another thing that is very important about this, what he highlighted in the spiel, this is not about the messenger. This is not about where it comes from. Because if it's one and undivided, it doesn't matter which lips is spitting it out.

It may be the birds singing on the tree and resonance may come up and may move something. So forget about the messenger and now ask yourself a question, how badly you want to grasp the message? Because if you do want to grasp the message, it happens occasionally on these meetings that instead of actually focusing on the beauty of the message, that frequency carrying the truth, people focus on how to catch that person or that person and prove them wrong. How to tell them that they don't really get it, they come from the head and not from the guts or whatever. Nonsense. How badly you actually want to pick the frequency of the truth.

Instead of, if there is some pointers that do not resonate, put them aside and listen to those that actually carry the message for you. Because as Bob said a moment ago also, there are many people in these rooms, sometimes there is half of the room who actually grasp the message and live it day to day. They come here because that's the only place for them to be able to express it. So they are not seekers anymore. So being open, being utterly open, and even those who are still seeking, but they grasp certain pointers, certain little things, and they can express it in words that if you really want to hear the message, you will hear it from anyone, seeker or non-seeker.

So this is the beauty, not about the messenger, about the message. The message is, you are already that. You are already that nothing, that cognizing emptiness. Now how to actually experience it? Well, it is already being experienced moment to moment. Because this undeniable, the only fact of life that we are sure and certain about is the fact of our own existence. And that existence, when Bob asked the question, are you unaware? You can't say you are unaware. You only say you are aware, so you are existing and you are conscious. So that is the very fact of your existence, that is the natural state, and that is what we are all looking for.

So that is what you already are. You are already existing. You already are. So now it feels like, okay, I exist and I am, but maybe I am a thing, an object, a thought, or a piece of flesh, or maybe certain, I don't know, there are ideas that come behind the word I am. Like there is an I am, that's the truth, and I am what? That's already an assumption, unquestioned belief as Bob says it. So whatever it is, so whatever it feels like, it feels like I am the body, okay. So let's look at it. There are sensations floating there. There is a sensation of feet standing on the ground, and there is sensation, some tinkling sensation of the face.

So does it really say that I am the body? There are floating sensations, and there is awareness of sensations. So am I sensations or am I the awareness of them? Because if I can sense a couple of them at the time, so obviously I am not one or the other, I must be the awareness, the field of cognising emptiness, in which that sensations are floating. So now being that cognising emptiness, aware of the foot on the carpet, or whatever, the sensations in the face or in the back, those are passing phenomena. I can lift the foot and I don't feel the carpet. So definition of reality or our natural state is that which never changes.

Sensations changing, they are changing all the time. Even if some may last for a long time, they will still eventually change. Everything that has the beginning has an end. Even the life or night time long migraine started and it will finish. So we are not the body because body is constantly changing. There was a different body here, 20 or 40 years ago. There will be a different body if it will, in some seeming future. Anyway, it's changing. The thoughts are changing, feelings are changing. Certain thoughts, like Bob shown beautifully, we learn and we form the conceptual image, which means not really we. We are not doing it.

Life is doing it. The conditioning is doing it. That's how the functioning happens through the human pattern. That it's kind of the way that the world defines itself. Because the moment we learn words as children, we learn to define everything. And because we are vulnerable, when we define ourselves, we are vulnerable. We think that when we stick a label on something, then we know what it is and we don't have to be afraid of it anymore. So now I will stick the label on me, cut, and I don't have to be afraid that I don't know who I am or what I am. And we stick a label on everything and we think we know what it is.

The mystery of that phenomenal appearance has been covered with the label. But the mystery is still there. The moment investigation starts, we don't know anything. We don't know. The label is not the thing. The word is not the thing. The word water doesn't quench your thirst. So really staying in that place where the pre-sense, the pre-sensory awareness of existence, the base, the basic screen on which everything appears, is a natural state. And now from that natural state we can just enjoy passing phenomena, passing labels, passing thoughts, passing feelings, passing sensations. The pre-sensory awareness, the I am, is the basic screen, is the true nature. So it is there all the time, it's fully awake, it's fully aware 24-7.

Sometimes the memory of it is gone. In a deep sleep there is no memory of it. But right here, right now, there is a presence and awareness, pre-sensory, and senses playing out on it. The forms, the solid objects, furnitures, the bodies, the sensations, the feelings, the perceptions, they are all passing phenomena. They are all being known in that basic awareness, or pre-sensory awareness. On the basic screen. So now because this one cannot be grasped with the mind, for the mind, that pre-sensory awareness of being, is nothing. It's nothing. It's not even cognizing emptiness. It's just blunt nothing. It's boring. So now to actually really feel into it, into that nothing, but not from the perspective of the mind, mind cannot picture nothing.

So it doesn't think there is anything. It's empty. It's void. Let's focus on objects, because that's more interesting. That's more juicy. So we can't really get to it with the mind, because mind is the minute expression of that emptiness. It's just a tool. It's just a bio-computer there. So the only way to come back to it is to relax out of the thinking. Thinking is a passing phenomena. Relax back of the thinking. Follow back into that natural awareness, that undeniable something that we can't say. I can't say I am not. I mean, I can say it, but that won't be true. That won't be the description of the experience.

Falling back into that I am. And I like to relate to it as really having a heart experience of it, because heart is also a concept, and we're not talking about the physical muscle that is pumping blood, but the heart means the center. Bob uses it as a center of the being or the core of the being. Some of the Zen schools use gut, but it doesn't matter. Bob also uses solar plexus. It's just they're all pointers, then none of it is true. They're just really to shift out of the mind, of the thinking stream. So whatever it is, whatever it is that would help you to shift out of the thinking stream, it could be just focusing on the I am like Nisargadatta was suggesting.

Just stay with the I am to the exclusion of everything else. That's what happened to him for three years and it was enough. I never met him, but that's what Bob is confirming. He spent a year with him. So this is where it starts to be a little bit more difficult, because staying with the I am while we are conditioned to focus in the mind 24-7 non-stop, mind is so entertaining, it's so juicy. We're thinking constantly and creating mental images about what is not, about the future, about the past, about the next moment, about plans, about careers, goals, all that stuff. This is difficult. How to give up the idea of this really, really rich world of pictures, imaginary world of pictures?

So there is one way which Bob pointed. Take out the cause, the base of it. All those thoughts relate to the me, to the idea that there is me. They are relevant to me. Me who is going to have that future or that past or that plans or that goals. See if that me is real. Because if the me is not real, all that thoughts will basically just starve. They won't be that interesting anymore. If there is no my future, why would I be bothered? I mean, this moment is the reality. I used to be an obsessive planner. Three, four, five years ago, I would be planning my next step, my next week, my next year, my, my, my, my.

I would be obsessing about myself being whatever. Right now, future doesn't really exist. Things are done in the last minute because the thought comes last minute. But nothing comes too late. It is all taken care. So questioning that base through which all those mental images stick to, my future, my goals, questioning that my and seeing it for what it is, just another thought. When that thought or that building, that mental image made of thoughts, because it's not just a thought, I'm the body, I'm the mind, it's also the feeling, yes, but I feel limited. I feel my body is limiting me. Or I feel vulnerable or I'm so concerned about what people think of me.

I'm so obsessed with it. I'm obsessed about myself. But what is that obsession? If not just another mental movement, if not another buzzing of the mind, the self-obsession, the preoccupation, it's just another activity, it's a vibration. So if that vibration is actually noticed as a movement on the screen, you are the screen. You are the awareness. So staying back in that basic screen or that awareness brings about the relaxation from the stream of mind, from the thinking. And this gradually becomes so much more attractive, so much more compelling than any story mind can tell you. That it naturally, it just, the heart opens up and we fall in love with that presence, with that immediacy, with that moment as it is, the aliveness that is here and the aliveness that is not in the story that the mind is going to picture, image.

So for many people it is basically just a gradual process of recognizing moment to moment and stabilizing in that recognition. For others it may be just one big bang. And there are many stories of how it happens to others. One thing is for certain, that intelligence is so brilliant it never repeats itself. There are no two fingerprints that are the same. There are no snowflakes that are the same. So whatever stories of awakening you heard till now, this is not going to be your case. Because that intelligence is going to come up with something that is fresh and new. And it's not going to happen in future.

The realization that it is going on right here, right now, is there to be taken, is there to be seen, right now. And right now. And every now. It is, if not for that life, Bob is also giving this beautiful example of the difference between the dead body and the live body. Like that life essence that animates the body brings about that expression, brings about the seeing capacity. That's how the intelligence of life, can actually see the world. How it can express in the world. That life essence is what you are. When we see the corpse, the dead body, you won't identify with that. So this is really, this is it.

I mean, gosh, please join in and contribute because every one of you have experience of it. All the time. And an obscure experience of it. Also. When the thinking is not in your mind, in the way. An obscure experience when you are totally engaged with what you're doing. When there is no thinking because let's say you are savoring wonderful meal, or you're having sex, or you're working, and you are in a moment, in a zone, in a moment of passion. There's no thinking. There is just movement. There is just the dance. When you know you're not doing any of it. You're not the doer of any of it.

Or the moments early in the morning when you don't, when the brain didn't download the story about me yet. And it doesn't even know which day of the week it is yet. So those moments are when the experience is unobscured. They happen many times throughout the day. And those moments when the experience is obscured seemingly by the clouds of thinking, it doesn't mean it's gone. It's also there. If not for that life, the clouds of thinking wouldn't show up on the screen. And we are that screen. So please share your experience. Add to it. Because you may have different words to point out to the same thing that one may hear.

Please use that opportunity that Bob allows everyone to voice their concerns, their questions, and their experiences. Because it's not many places where the messenger is not worshipped and the only one to speak. Wonderful question. Bob, do you want to answer that? Is the awareness generating patterns of thinking or is it a me that is thinking? Me can't do anything at all. Thinking is a vibration. It's a movement of energy. Just like your breath is a movement of energy. Vibrates into words, patterns. It's using the apparatus, the brain and the body to break it down into concepts, ideas and images. But it's still the life essence, patterning, shaping, forming in every way.

The minutest insect, the hugest creature, the most powerful, the most powerful star or planet or whatever it is out there. It's the same life essence. So we really have no control over what likes to think it has control over things? Is that a fallacy? Well, can you tell me what your next thought's going to be? No, I don't know. Well, prove it to yourself, you know. You don't know. You don't know where you'll be next week or what you'll be. You know, go outside and watch the things on the ice stain. It could be raining. It could be rain. It could be a storm. It could be anything.

It could be anything. It could be anything. It's all a concept. It's all the me is doing, is taking credit. A fictitious entity that is taking credit for thoughts, for actions, for taking decision, choices, for will, for everything. It's taking credit. And what brought you here? You know, I've been before. Yeah. Been a while ago. It's just the thought that I'm not a doer. Yeah. I'm not a doer of my deeds. So it resonates with the recognition of what's happening. recognition of it. That's correct, yeah. What new? They want to bring it a little bit stronger. And what you were saying about the ego, you know, resistance, you were saying that resistance actually strengthens the ego, doesn't it?

The resistance that you have strengthens that ego. So how do you weaken the ego? Well, see that it's got no power at all. If that life energy wasn't going into it, what power would it have gone? So it's just a erroneous belief we've taken this something here that's real and the energy going in it and making it seem like solid and substantial. Even this body, the vibrating pattern of energy, put it under a microscope and see how solid it is. That's why you don't use the term God here because you can get confused with that term because we come from different backgrounds and whatever your tradition might be, you're related to that and say, well, this is a lot of crap or something like that.

But I call it intelligence energy and that's just a concept also. That's not it. Intelligence is knowing. Anybody who is not knowing right now, no, that knowing is there without that. And the ING on it, the knowing, the seeing, the hearing, all that ING is an activity, a movement of energy. So it's the activity of knowing. That's going on in each and every one of us right now. Whatever it is you're knowing. Just one last thing. What do you think about the divine hypnosis that we are hypnotized to believe that we're separate? Is that a true concept? Is that a concept? It's a concept, not a label.

But nothing's ever happened. It's my art, it's illusion. I can see how this concept may resonate with some people. It's an idea, but it's an idea that kind of may steer the desire to wake up from it. I would compare it to a car. The car's got all the functions, you know, the brakes, the wheels, blah blah. But without the drive it doesn't go anywhere. And the same thing here. It's got everything. It's got the blood, but without the intelligence it doesn't go anywhere. It's the same thing. Yeah. We've taken on this concept that we are a person. Where did that word come from? It comes from some ancient, I think it's Latin or Greek, I don't know, persona.

The mask. That's what it means, translated. It means a mask, a conceptual image is a mask. We've taken this mask of concepts and we believe we are the concepts. Persona in Italian means person. Yeah. It's a person. Persona. But the word came from the mask. That was the origin of the word. Maybe from the Latin. Yes, from Latin. But now at the moment persona means person. That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's what the origin of the word was the mask. And the personality, you can see how it is the mask that we are wearing. Mask of personality. Like if someone asks you who you are rather, are you rather your body or are you rather your values and your desires and your wants and likes and dislikes?

If you would have to have replaced the body, let's say, you know, plastic limbs or whatever, the artificial hip like Bob got lately. Or would you have replaced the body? Yeah. Would you like to transplant your personality? You kind of feel that personality is much closer to the description of what you are than the body because the body is also changing. But it's still not who you are. The personality is just the operation system of this biocomputer. And who is the power? It's like car is also running on the power. The power is generated by the engine from the gas or whatever. But, you know, computer.

Normal computer. It has the power from a socket or battery or whatever. But this life, the biocomputer here, the capacities that it has and the software, the personality that it has is powered by the life. A very simple one for me of getting out of the known, past known, according to the moment, is when I lose my keys or I misplace my keys. Oh. And initially it's because I might go somewhere. I want to drive down the shop or I've got an appointment to be to. Depends on what that is, depending on what's going to set, how much I'm going to be set off. You know?

The past is going to be triggered into this moment. And the beautiful thing I've been doing for years now is stop. Just stop. And all of a sudden, there's no thought and I move to a place, wherever it happens to be. And that's where the keys will be. It'll be under a book. It'll be under a chair. One time I found them in a box on the opposite side of the room. Because when I'd flipped my sheets one time, the keys, I heard something, but I, you know, this was, you know, a couple of days before. I heard something, but I didn't know where they were.

I didn't know what it was and whatever. Anyway, doing this process, it's like I'm not moving, but obviously I'm moving. I'm moving to places. But it's like there's nothing apart from the true guidance, if you will, if you want to use words to describe it. You know, it's like I'm walking in emptiness. And it's amazing, you know. And the mind wants to go, what are you doing here? And I let go of that. And then my hand moves down and lifts up the piece of paper or the book. There's the keys. It's amazing. Beautiful. You want to get, you want to speed the process up, do that.

Otherwise you'll be for two hours ripping everything to pieces, getting in the way. Getting in the way, yeah. So yeah, that's one of the things that I enjoy about the emptiness. Getting out of the way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How often do you lose your keys? Well, as I said, probably misplaced, yeah. Look, sometimes it can be a couple of times a week. Yeah, absolutely. Simple thing would be to hang them on the door. Hang a thing, make a thing and hang them in the same spot all the time. Make a repetitious situation. But it doesn't need to be that either, as I'm describing. Because it's only for a short time.

Great story. We have a question from someone who is watching us from far away. From far away, from Uluru. And it's Judith. And she's saying, maybe Bob you want to take it. Why do I feel so threatened when someone tells me I'm wrong, stupid, I should have been better, I should have known better? Why do I feel I have been stopped? I feel devastated when someone tells me you made a mistake. It is little me? Is that a problem? Yes, I know it. But the pain is horrid. Why are some people... Why are some people so nasty? Stupid question. I feel exhausted from being around nasty people.

It is the energy, the negative energy. Or is it my thinking? How do I let it wash over without affecting me so much? Do you want to comment on that, Bob? Who's taking that on board? Yeah, who is taking that on board? Me. Conceptual image. Yes, so that's when people actually struggle. They want to become hard and cold. And this is what Judith was telling me before. She wants to have no feelings. She wants to be a psychopath. She wants to be totally immune. People are telling her bad things and she just wants to be a block of wood that doesn't take anything on board.

This is not it. She's wanting to be something. She's wanting to change all of it. What if she leaves it as it is? See what comes up spontaneously and naturally. Yeah. Darling, remember that poem, wanting what is not? As a rule, a man is four. When it's hot, it wants it cool. When it's cold, it wants it hot. Always wanting what is not. So you are vulnerable. And that's wonderful. Don't want it any other ways. Yes, it hurts at times. But it is hard opening hurt. It's good to be able to actually feel feelings. People, I know quite a few people, and this is... When we experience pain and psychological pain, we don't really think about it because we are too actually self-obsessed.

But I know a couple of friends, and she knows them too, who are on antidepressants. They feel nothing. They're dead. They feel like zombies. They become suicidal because of incapacity and inability to feel. So yes, at some points, the things that happen, the toothache can be quite painful. And psychological suffering can be very, very painful. Psychological suffering has a hope because you can actually wake up from it. From toothache, it's a little bit harder. So it's not too bad, Judith, that you're just suffering psychologically because questioning the I that is suffering. Is there anyone who actually experienced... Yes, feeling stabbed when someone criticized me. Sure, I remember that.

So it feels... It really feels stabbed. But what is the feeling really? Is it a me experiencing a stab... being stabbed? Or is it really just a basic screen of awareness? And on that screen of awareness, the psychological contraction, the pain that is reflected in the body, in the body is reflected the way that the breath is shallow. And there's a pain in the chest or pain in the heart. Those are sensations. Those sensations are passing phenomena. Now, when I watch what is going on with my body, there is a sensation of shallow breath. There is sensation of pain in the heart. All those sensations are happening and are known in the awareness.

So I'm the awareness, knowing about sensations. Now there is a story playing on top of it. Yes, but it shouldn't have happened. Why people are so nasty? So this story is also passing phenomena. Now, if I step back to my true nature of cognizing emptiness, I'm the nothing that is cognizing the content. And the content is physical sensations and the mental story. Viewed from that perspective, there is... First of all, there is not that much of the identification with the pain and with the story. So they are just a movie on the screen. There may be a movie that creates a fearful reaction or a movie that creates a painful reaction.

But it's not necessarily that personal anymore. Taking the personal element out of it and just watching it moment to moment. And who knows, Judith, you may want to do it a hundred times. You may need to do it just once. But, yeah, for now, that's... I'm really, really sorry you are in pain. I'm sorry. I love you, darling. I am. She's... It's always about having an image of yourself. Absolutely. Yes. And getting lost in that image. Oh, gosh, yeah. Listen to Victor Judith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And wanting it to be something else. There's your resistance. Absolutely. Yeah. And I suppose what Bob said, an image is a persona.

You know? And a persona goes on to personality. And that's what you think you are. You act out of this. So it goes. Mm. Isn't it that it's not really the personality that matters so much? Is it the... You can think something might happen. You'll react the way you react spontaneously. But it's the involvement. I shouldn't have done that to that person. That person shouldn't have... It goes on forever, that involvement. Your personality is going to react to that. Absolutely. Like missing... You get out of... You would get angry. You don't... You didn't... That is a very, very important distinction. Yes, Judith, you are watching your personality reacting to things as if it is...

You're watching the movie. It's really not the things that happen to us. It's the way we take them. And it's the identification. It's taking them personally. Because as you say, body will do whatever it will do. I mean, dog will bark. Cat will meow. The birds will be singing, or whatever. Like... Like Nisargadatta was giving that example about somebody asking him, okay, so let's say there is a fight on the street. What are you going to do? Will you go and stop the fight? Or what are you going to do? And Nisargadatta says, how would I know? I have no idea. I have no idea what this body is going to do.

So nobody has any idea of what our next thought is going to be or our next reaction. Or if someone criticizes us, there may be a response to it. There may be slap in the face or there may be a little bit of crying. The hanging on to it, the involvement, as you said, the involvement, this is what actually perpetuates the psychological suffering and identification. If it happens that there's a narrowing of focus into just where it's coming in and what it feels like and where it's starting, there's less room for any of the other reactive thoughts to carry on. Yeah. And then. Sometimes it might even pop up just as it's coming up.

This thing's going to come and this reaction might occur. So again, there's less room for the rest of the thought trying to take off. And this just might start to occur because people have mentioned it. Yeah. So what you're saying is just to be with whatever comes up immediately? Yeah. To the exclusion. It just might be because somebody mentions it here that it shows up. That it can be noticed it coming in. The sensation's turning out. The thought creeping in. The flash of what the thought's going to be about even before it gets there. Just that really fine microscope thing might show up. And then there's a lot less room for the rest of the rubbish.

When it shows up, you know. And then that's just it. Momentary thing. Bob, I wanted to ask you something. So one of the things that I've been doing lately, because I feel like throughout the process of particularly during, um, meditation, um, there is enough distance now between thinking and that which watches the thinking that there's almost been a, dare I say, like a complete disidentification there where it almost, it is like watching a film, like it is like watching a film and there's no sense of like, that is I in there. But what I do when I close my eyes and I say the word I or me or Matt, or, uh, uh, basically referring to I, there's like a, it feels like where I live is like the solar plexus.

There's this feeling of like, uh, that's, that feels much closer. That feels more like I than thinking as such. And also there's this kind of almost muscular tension around like the face and head that kind of feels like, that feels a lot closer. It feels a lot more like me. And I was just wondering if you could say something, um, or talk a little bit more about maybe gaining further distance from the body and feelings in the body more so than so. Well, where are you looking at it from? When you change the things, things in the body, where are you looking at that from?

To say it, say it in the solar plexus or somebody else, it must have been some other part. Where are you looking at it from? Go back to that. What can you find there? Nothing static about it at all. I can't find a spot. No, if you find a spot, look at that, where are you looking at that from? There's no spot now. Doubling. So you can't anchor it anywhere and say, make a static point of it. No, but that feeling does feel like an anchor. That feels like an anchor in life. Yes, it does. If you put it in the room, it's not going to feel like an anchor.

Say that again, sir. If you can't find anything. So. So. So all of those substantial there, when you're looking for somewhere else, how long is it going to be an anchor then? I suppose it feels like that is connected to an eye that is looking at it. I don't know how to describe it, but it feels very close, like very, that it feels like it's much more difficult to get distance from or do you know what I mean? Cool. What are you separate from anyway? What are you looking at? To get distance from something, you've got to be separate from it. Everything is that. Because you take it to be something there that's other than the seeing or the looking.

Say that again. I say, you take there to be when you're looking, you take it to be separate from something, you're looking at something. All right? That's what you're doing. Correct, yeah. I'm watching this. Yeah, where are you watching it from? I couldn't find a spot where I'm watching it from. Oh. Well, maybe there's no spot there. And if you did find a spot, where would you be looking at that from? So you're forming, assuming, conceptualizing a spot or an image, but there's nothing there. It's all appearing and disappearing. But when you make it static, looking at something, that's when it becomes power. Energy seemingly goes in and makes it very powerful, painful or whatever.

How about, Max, if you didn't really know how is, what is the shape or size of your body? You know roughly where your face is because you have mental image as you see it. What if you didn't really know? This is still mental processing. It's very subtle and we can't switch it off. But if you didn't really know how big your body was, maybe your body was like huge, you wouldn't really, or even if you didn't really have an idea of having a body or the skin, if you had no idea of the body, if the thought of the body didn't exist, now, wouldn't you be just that being, totally, completely, extending infinitely far?

Like if you were to sit as if I am, but I don't know what I am or who I am, would you be able to put any borders or any distance, like any boundaries at all? It's only because we have mental image of being limited to the body, we assume the location of the body. But now, really experientially, if you experience, you are looking at the body as if you are in a state of being. You are looking and all that space of your gaze is what you are. Only the sensation is here and not here, because the instrument to sense it is here and not here.

But really, you are all that is within your gaze and within the space of hearing and within the space, the whole space, this is you. Now, the assumption is that this is me and this is not me. That is the assumption that we were conditioned to believe. Mm-hmm. But that's not true. If you go back to the experience and you see, take away that thought that I am the body and there is a world outside of me. Without that mental concepts, there is just being completely unlimited. If you close your eyes, you can't even see the space. If you stop your mind, you can't picture the time.

It's just being that you can't say if it's the size of a needle, or if it's infinitely large. Like a whole galaxies. You can't even say whether it's zero or it's infinity. Nothing. It's just pure being, unlimited, unbound. Of course, mental picture of the body will come. But that's okay if you know this is just a picture. The same way when you drive the car, you have mental image of the size of a car. So you know how much space you take on the road. But you know you're not the car. So it can't be fully experienced. Well, it can if you take certain drugs or do whatever.

But because the mind is constructed the way, so it operates all the senses. The moment you start seeing, the senses are operated by the mind. That's what we learned from Raibhugita, that all senses. So mental images come whether you invite them or not. And you can't force it off. You can't. Maybe some electrodes in the brain or something. But knowing them for what they are, even a glimpse of having that undivided attention, that the attention doesn't go to the mental images, is enough. Because then mental image, you know what it is. So you know that the feeling of the body, oh yeah, it's just a sensation.

I'm the space. And here is my sensation. Here is my vehicle, my coat, or my car, or my... It's really just perception, isn't it? You can perceive it. Have you heard that this is a movie? But Bob, do you think the movie is... It's a good fight. Good fight. Nothing's ever happened. It's all appearing in that screen. The screen is empty. And silent. Still and silent. Now, when the movie comes on the screen and there's all sorts of fighting and everything, is the screen damaged? Nothing's not touched by any of the movie that appears. You are the screen itself, the emptiness in which everything appears and disappears.

You can sense pain, fear and all those things on it, but they're all appearances. Where are you looking at them all from? Where's the screen looking at them? Like the mirror. The mirror is an analogy. It's a poor analogy, though. The mirror's got nothing in it but reflections. You can't say those reflections are not there. But try and grab a reflection. All you've got to do is grab the mirror. They're only seemingly so. And all sorts of things, you know. Everything is appearing on this, like reflections on that screen. Everything. But you are the screen in which everything appears and is never likely to appear.

The silent system is not. Take yourself to be a person or a separate entity, an individual appearing on that screen. That's a dualistic idea. Conceptive. Problematic. It's only a me that can be fearful. Only me can be anxious. Only me can be unhappy, full of depression. What's this me but a concept itself? You can't find any point where it starts. Because it doesn't. That mirror, is there a point in that mirror where the reflections begin? No. It's all available at the moment. Anything that appears in it. The difference with a mirror, a mirror needs something outside itself to reflect in. It's all taking place in this presence awareness that you are.

Vibrating, intelligent energy. The pattern, shapes and forms are mire. They're nothing. They can seem solid and painful and all the rest of it. And they will. In some cases, as far as the pattern of the body is concerned, it's very useful. You know, if you've got a broken bone in the body or a bruise or something, you'll know. You can pinpoint that, where that is. Where's it being seen from? What's it doing? What's it seeing? So nobody's talking in the room now? Nobody's talking in the room now? Nobody's talking. Nobody's talking? Yeah. No. No. It's just vibration. Vibration. It's different vibration. It's because the computer here is interpreting everything all the time.

I wasn't referring just to the voice. I'm talking about even the fact there's 20 bodies here. I'm talking about everything. I'm not just saying about the sound. I'm just saying even what we see. Absolutely. Absolutely. They're all just different vibrations. Absolutely. Different vibrations. And then they're interpreted as sound, sights. You know, like certain vibrations are picked with that sort of a device, the ear. Some other with another device. And it's the false sense that makes us think that we are here. The false sense. Is that correct? The presence, the existence is a base. This is the screen. If not for the existence, the hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling wouldn't happen.

There has to be an existence, the beingness. And that beingness, when it's plain, is just plain pre-sensory experience of being. And when it's filtered through this transformer of the body, it turns the pure space of being, turns to space of hearing, space of seeing, space of tasting, touching, smelling and thinking. It's just because this is transforming the pure. Like Bob sometimes is giving that example. It says this is like a 10,000 volt sort of a power. If it goes through the bulb, it will blow the bulb. But because we have it kind of, there is a transformer. It splits it, that pure essence, into different channels.

Now you've got space of this hearing, you know, space of seeing. That's kind of make it... It's like a crystal. You have white light and you put it through the crystal and it comes to seven different colours. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. Now you have that one powerful essence broken down and thanks to that, things become visible. Things become tangible. But it's just a blob of vibrations interpreted, projected and expressed. They seem tangible. Yeah, of course, absolutely. They seem so. Absolutely. It's Maya, it's illusion. It's not physically there. We can look under the microscope and it's just a bundle of atoms vibrating. It's just a field of probability.

The sky appears to be blue. Go 30,000 feet in the plane, where's the blueness? None of it's in the cabin. You look out, it's further out. The sea appears to be blue. When was the water ever blue? Appears to be. Every time you see it, it'll still appear. But it's knowing the truth. That's how the scripture was saying, know the truth. The truth will set you free. What are you free from? You're free from these erroneous beliefs you've had. Question and see for yourself. Free from the illusion. Yeah, you can then enjoy it. You can enjoy the rainbow and stop looking for the pot of gold at the end of it because you know it's not real.

But also, what he said, I like the, you know, the movie is already in the can. It's a pointer. But I can see how that pointer could be useful for some seekers to take completely the burden of controlling their own lives. They have no control. Absolutely zero. But when someone tells you, yeah, the movie is complete already, booked, so don't bother. Because whatever you do, it's been already predetermined. Although the idea of every single pointer is limited because they use words for unspeakable. They use dualistic words. So there is nothing predetermined in a way because there is no time. But I see the help, how it can be really helpful, that pointer.

This can't be different. It has to be. So it's the movie and the DNA. Yeah, it's part of it. And conditioning. We're conditioning ourselves now. You know, all the time it's the DNA that can be. And also it is linked with the world. And also with the environment as well. It's not just the DNA. It's also the climate. It's also the five elements outside of us. The water, air, everything. It's like, really, separation is only conceptual. Nothing is separated. So not only I will react a certain way because of my genes. I will react a certain way because of conditioning. And because of the constantly changing environment.

So it is all completely one. Just playing, dancing within itself. What the can, oh sorry. Yeah, go for it. What the can one came up for me was that, for me it was always like, well, life's just unravelling like this. Why does anyone need a script? What's the point of the movie? That's a hypnosis. That's a hypnosis. We believe in it. Yeah, and what it comes back to is there's no free will belief. Like you were saying. That's freedom is when you don't believe. Yeah, and I don't have the free will belief. I don't mean I'm not on my head and I don't know what's in the time.

I am, but I don't have the free will belief. So it's just random. There's no free will. Why do you need a predestination? Why do you need a, oh, I won't do anything now. It just makes no sense. You don't have the free will belief. You go to sleep at night and you start to dream. In that dream it can be the world. It can be all sorts of things. It can be in any place whatsoever doing all sorts of tricks. What happens when you wake up? It all disappears. Now when was it ever so? Does it need any DNA, that dream there? Or anything at all?

It didn't. And when you wake up, you wake up into this dream. We don't realise it. This is a living dream also. It's a waking dream. You've got no more reality than the dream you dream of at night. It seems to be so. And if you dreamed the same dream every night from where it left off, it carried on just the same as this waking state, could you tell the difference between that and this? Have a look at that. To know yourself. Not the movie. There's no movie. There's just no movie. Forget the movie. There's this so much right now. That's it. To awake to the dream, not from the dream.

That's the dream. That's realising all the dreams. Enjoy it. As Nisargadatta says, realise you are dreaming of the dream you call the world. And stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your problem. Your problem is you love one part of the dream and not the other. That's what we do. We're always dividing it. He says love all of it or none of it and the rest will be done for you. Just the same as it brought you into existence. You won't find yourself as an object. No. The movie only ever exists in the momentary conceptualisation of the movie. And that's just something that arises just as neutral as anything else.

No value. Nothing special. Nothing special. Sorry. It makes everything fresh, doesn't it? If you're watching a movie, if you're watching what's going on, you don't know what's going to happen next. So it makes it more interesting. Yeah. If you could put it that way. Yeah. That's just right. So we're watching, the movie's already made, are we saying? There is no movie. But then on the other hand we're saying things just pop up, right? Yes, spontaneously. Things just pop up. Well, if they pop up, what pops up now and what pops up after, that's time, isn't it? Yeah. But we're saying there is no time. There is only now.

So that means they all pop up at the same time then? Yes. Just now. Not at the same time. Just now. Whatever pops up now, what pops up? What pops up tomorrow doesn't pop up now. Just now is what pops up. Tomorrow doesn't exist. But that means tomorrow and yesterday, that's time. That's time. That's time. That's time. Again, something popping up right now. Yeah, see, this is, you are trying now to collapse the time in a way that everything pops out at the same time. It's almost as if you had the movie and you had separate frames and you put all the frames together. It is trying to work it out in the mind.

It's not going to happen because the mind created that separate frame. The mind created the time. Time is a mental concept for the appearance to be conceivable, to be thinkable, to be understandable, acceptable. So now to collapse the time using the mind, it's not going to happen because the mind is time. So you can only just stop thinking and see what pops up right now. Yeah, but a moment ago something else pops up. No, no, no. The moment ago is already thinking. You're already thinking. Stop thinking and be what is right now. That's the way it is known, understood in a way that concept wants to understand.

It's not going to happen. It's not going to be understood in the same way. It's not going to be logical. Like how logical is that that someone will tell you that you are nothing and your body is a brain? No, no, no. No. It's a bundle of atoms and there is nothing really happening and nothing has ever happened. It's not for the mind. It's not going to be logical. But the moment you stop thinking, ah, like Xin Xin Ming says, stop talking and thinking. There is nothing you won't be able to know. Everything is known. No questions. Everything resolved. The knowing. But the thinking comes up.

Oh, yeah, yeah, but what if? But, but, but, but what if? Thinking. It's always the but. Yes. That's where we suffer. That's where we suffer, yeah. Nothing better than a good... And what you said also before. It's good, it's all right. Take your baton and sit on it. I'm doing it now. Tony, would you like to add something? You didn't add anything. Just, you know, add something. I was just thinking about what you were saying, Tony. The whole notion of the belief in time and also what's her name? On the... Judith. Judith, yeah. Judith was saying. Can you hold this for me? I was just talking about...

Yeah, why don't you just... Okay, so there's the assumption from what Judith was saying that there's the assumption that there's her me. And there's also the assumption that there are other mes out there. And those mes can say things and be nasty and hurt me. Okay? So if you... I mean, I was listening to what you were reading out. Mm. You know, I thought it was going to be a question. Yeah. And it was a question. Mm-hmm. But there was a bigger story attached to it. Yeah, it was pain. Yeah, yeah. And that... The story that got, you know, expanded within the question was all based on the assumption and the belief that she's there.

Yes. Mm-hmm. And there's a me here and there are other mes out there that can be nasty. And then it gets divided up into, well, are there good energies and bad energies? And what do I do about those energies? Do I avoid those? And it's all based on I, I, I, I. The assumption that there's... I could see that too when she was reading. Yeah, yeah. So the assumption that there's a me there. Time, you bugger. Mm-hmm. You've sat in so many meetings here about time. Yeah, I know. The idea and the concept. Yeah, but you still believe in it. You still believe in it.

Clearly, just from what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah? So there's still a belief in that. And you can only investigate that yourself. So, and Bob says it, you know. Oh, God. He says it all the time. All the time, Bob says it. Yes. And it's, look, seeing whether time is a thing or not, is or is not, is really difficult, well, it's impossible, if you're trying to use thought to do that. Because thought is time. The me is time. It's all based, but it's all a conceptual idea. It's something that we've learnt. There's, and in your own, and the way to test that is in your own direct experience, your own direct experience, if you really look, and you really, I was going to say be honest, just be clear, with absolute clarity, from your own perspective, here, now, just looking yourself, you will see that there is always and only now.

And it is just always here, right now. Now, now, now, now, now, now, now. Okay? And your mind will step in and go, yeah, but what about yesterday? You know, like something happened yesterday, and here I am now, and I can recall it. So, that must be time. Yeah, and it is. But it's a concept. It's a constructed belief. It's not an actual, it's not a thing. It's not, it's not tangible. It's not, there's nothing alive to it. Yeah. To the concept of time. Yeah. So, another thing that was coming up for me with this, you know, we've got seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. And the one sense, sensory, perception or organ that we've failed to add into that is thinking.

They're all senses. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. All of them. Yeah? Without the sense of smell, you couldn't smell. Without the sense, without sight, you couldn't see. Ears, you couldn't hear. And without thought, there'd be absolutely no thinking at all. And, you know, and there's nothing wrong with thinking. That's, that's, it's all part of the play. So as that we can build rocket ships, and we can build aeroplanes, and we can build a house, and we can create, do things, you know. And when that sense of meanness is seen through and taken out, if you like, taken out of that sixth sense, which is the thinking sense, then thinking just becomes creative.

Beautifully creative. Whilst that me is in there. You know, Mark, yeah. I was sitting here thinking, you know, like, everybody's mes, everyone's mes. They're so, when you look at it, they're so ridiculously immature. So unbelievably immature. Because we just won't accept what is. Whatever. It could be anything. You know, it could be anything. Cold soup. Cold soup. The fact that all the roads in Australia are black and I want them white. And that, and I'm not going to be happy until they are. Like, are you kidding me? And there is always only now, and if you bring it right back to that, usually, unless, you know, your sleeve's on fire or something, or the roof's about to fall in, if you actually just come back to here now, it's usually always perfect.

There's nothing wrong with it. Until the mind steps in, goes, no, I can't accept that. That's the little kid, that immature meanness that's stamping its feet going, I don't want it like that. It's not okay that it's like that. It's so childlike. Beautiful. Yeah, wonderful way to say it. Yeah. I love it. And just, you just need to see that, really. You know, like, but the, yeah, I love the time one. But that's a journey for one's self to discover that. You can't really, there's not a whole lot you can say on that because I'd be using time to try and describe no time. I think the only way one of us has no time, it's if you're doing something and you're not thinking.

And then you look at the clock and all this time is gone, and that's a good way to make you aware there's no time. Only, and the thought is there. Time is thought. Yeah. It is. Total thought. So that's the only way to experience it. Correct. It's a construct of thought. Purely just a construct of thought. There is, in your own absolute direct experience, there is always and only ever now. Yeah. Until that steps in, and off we go. And the thing is, until you have some experiences, you don't realise otherwise. That's right. That's what I was saying. It's something that needs to be seen for one's self.

You kind of need to, yeah. That's right. Otherwise you still resist it. It resists. Yeah, yeah. It's just so ridiculous. And the amount of energy and time, time, that goes into, that goes into resistance, and then trying to modify or trying to correct things or trying to change things, the energy that goes into that. That's what Bob calls etherealist believing, doesn't he? Yeah. Yeah. Really, when you listen to Bob, when you, I know he says it all the time, and I find that for myself, even though I've heard it quite a lot of times, but does all of it. It just makes a deeper meaning, you know, you feel it more.

It's not boring. Well, again, it's been from my own experience. It's not boring. It's good because it's like it puts a solid ground for you. Well, for me it does. It becomes real for you. Yeah, and it makes sense. Like you go through the whole process of everything, and then you have to try to say, which is good. Yeah. It's really good. Yeah, it's, I don't hear anything more brilliant than the collective spill when it starts from every angle on it. And I was challenged some time ago by a friend who doesn't want to be a friend anymore, but the job was done, to actually listen just to one spill, just to one spill over and over and over and over for a few weeks.

Because what we do, we just distract ourselves because the mind is constantly bored. So let's get another language, another speaker, another one, another one, another one. And basically the energy gets dispersed. And the pointers never really have the chance to land really, really deeply and find home. So it worked in my case. And I heard Bob very often saying that, you know, it's kind of waste of time. They're all guru hopping. You know, they're not going to get anywhere when they're guru hopping. So, but who knows? Maybe, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But... That's a lesson too that you need to become aware of it too.

Yeah, of course, of course. Nobody is the doer. People can only do what they can do. It's like you go shopping. No. For the cheapest things or the best things or the things you want to be. Isn't it? That's right. You all have to do the same thing. Yeah, you're not the doer even of seeking. And then when the wrong thing happens, next time I'm not going to do that. I'm going to, you know, sort of... Yes, so... Fall in the trap. We are over time. So thank you very much. We got few nice, few viewers with us and few messages that people were really happy.

So thank you for your contribution. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Ken. Thanks, Will. Thanks.