Sailor Bob - Non Duality. On identification. 8 Nov 18

Yeah, so because there is no me he says open your mouth and let the intelligence speak Yeah, yeah on my right hand Yeah You're on the left. So what's my baby? Yeah. Well, tell me what does it make me? yeah, I was supposed to think of you as a captain and I'm your chief officer, but Captain usually takes the ship into the port himself unless he doesn't anyway, unless chief officer We're out of the port now into the rough sea so get in You dreaming you want some rough seas, you know that calm waters here. Everybody knows everything Yes, so, okay, whatever the waters are, let's find out We sailing Yes, so in fact, we are not really we just hear everything else is sailing It's that that presence awareness or awareness of presence that sense of being is there is kind of stationary one could say and In that awareness of presence everything else moves Like sounds are coming and going thoughts are coming and going objects are coming and going It seems like the body is going from one room to another from outside to inside and then everything is stable there It feels like the room is already furnished and and steady or stable, but body is moving his body Is moving but the awareness isn't So the awareness is there is unchanging is always stationary kind of unmovable I mean we can't even talk about the awareness because that's a no thing but if we want to talk about it we could say that everything that space like awareness or sky like awareness is the no think like awareness is there and Whatever it expresses us and whatever appears On it is transient, but it itself is not so you as Per who you really are in your true nature.

You're not not transient. You are not born You're not gonna die. You're not coming and going you are not becoming either you are and that isness is the true nature the fact of the being the certainty of being the Unquestionability of being that is always There sometimes it may not be remembered like in the dream the recording doesn't work here Oh, it may be work differently, but it doesn't mean the being is not there So the being is always there and that being doesn't change that being is the same when we were little children when we were teenagers The concepts that we had the body that we have their thoughts the images that we had they're all coming and going they're all changing But the fact of existence is always there So that is one thing to rely on that is one thing to come back to that's home That's the place we never left and we can't leave it Because we are it like we can't leave ourselves So that awareness of presence or cognizing emptiness has no way to leave itself the only way for it to experience a little bit of a diversity is To fall asleep and dream to be something else so now the life or the consciousness or the awareness or the presence is Dreaming to be an entity But it is not it never will be never could be it can't be anything else but itself But in the dream it dreams different roles It dreams that it wears the mask of identity and it looks through the mask and it dreams many many different roles But it's still a dream and this is the dream which can be easily seen.

I don't know It's funny to say it can be easily seen because it assumes that there is someone to see it. There's no one to see it but it can Experientially be It just can't be no it can be known That's why they call it cognizing emptiness because that emptiness has the capacity of knowing so the emptiness can be cognizant or can be aware of the dream of the play so it can Still dream itself as the other and at the same time know it is a dream So the body can still be moving the sounds and the thoughts and the and the objects they can still be coming and going And that can be known for what it is the appearance the changing phenomena While the awareness the stillness the unmovable Being is there Because if it wasn't there nothing else could have been there So it is a prerequisite for all the appearance to exist for everything to come and go It is a way it expresses.

That's why the Buddhists call it the emptiness becoming a form not becoming really being not becoming really being not becoming really being Emptiness is the form and the form is the emptiness. They wanted the same thing the different aspect It's like the spirit and the matter that different aspect of the one That's why non duality is called non duality because it means it's non dual It's not that matter is one thing and the spirit is another thing or that emptiness is one thing and the form is another thing Or changeless is one thing and changing is another thing. No, they're one They're one they're just this is just a play This is the way the changeless is expressing as the flickering change as the flashing change Sometimes the flash takes thousands of eons or sometimes it takes a life like different life The bacteria has and a different life the galaxy or the star has but they all just flickering appearance in the timelessness there's something anything that comes and goes is just a flash in the existence so Knowing it for what it is knowing the life from this perspective from that cognizing emptiness Knowing every phenomenon every story every problem every idea for what it is, just a flash We don't even need to wish them to go we don't need to wish them away even if that's the Uncomfortable feeling because it is not going to stay This destiny of it is to change Everything is going to change, except from that one stillness or space-like, silence-like awareness of being.

That one is home. That one is what never changes. That one is the reality. And that one is always there. And we know it, because we can't deny it. There's no way to deny that space-like awareness. Everyone is aware of the being. We know that we exist. So that knowing of existence is that basic screen. So recognizing moment to moment that basic screen and giving it due importance and giving it all the credit leaves no place for anything else. It leaves no place for entity having any power, any will, any decision-making duty, any guilt or shame or anything. If that stillness is the total power, is the total presence, is the space, the total love to be, so there is no place for anything else.

Some call it God. So there is only God. There is no one else. That was a Muslim saying you told me once. Wow. That there is only God. Allah is His name. Everything else is, there's nothing else. There isn't really. It's just this. Just this. So coming back to that recognition, to recognize everything as just that, whether it appears in a changing form or it is just plain knowing of the changing form, it's all only that. It's just this subtle warm feeling that God hasorrying to create different forms of constitution and to manifest it. There is only God, but there is no will, there is nothing.

There is nothing present, nothing birth. So your being, your constitution, as a mere ape has the same shape as you. Nothing is truly you as you have TV and you have a way of being. Nothing has that two sides. Whatever you are. Nothing is material. Nothing is boundary. Everything comes from nature. Everything comes from the soul of the soul. From the soul. Everything comes from the Soul of the? Of? moment to moment. Like there is no situation when the recognition of it would be... I mean there is no pause, not possible to get out of that space like awareness. It is always there. Sometimes the whole computing capacity, the whole attention is spent in the imagination or is spent in projecting some dark scenarios or some fearful stories and it feels like the space collapsed but it didn't.

It is always there. If not for that space, that imaginary scenarios wouldn't be there. So everything, even the thought, even the most fearful, stressful thought is there because of that changeless space like awareness. So there is no way out. There is really nothing to seek, nothing to find. It is just a matter of time. It is already here. The only problem with seeking is really when the idea steals the show that this is not good enough, that there is something bigger or better, there's more to life than just this. And if there is more to life than just this, that more would also happen just in that space like awareness.

So even if there is something to find, more money or more pleasure or more fame or more food, whatever people are seeking, people seeking for pleasure, usually enlightenment is opening heart and having experiences — even those experiences are also passing phenomena in the space. So giving attention to changing phenomena, it may be exciting. It in a way to have fun in that divine game, in that play. estas concentradas en esta parte para el espacio,, pero dar atención al cambio de not the ultimate truth. If someone is really after ultimate truth or totality or reality, then the reality can never be lost. Nobody can ever get away from it.

It is all there is. It is showing up as the emptiness and as the form. So, cut then. Got any questions about that? Come on. Want to add to it? I thought you want to add to it. I can go rambling on to something with anybody else again. Okay, yeah. Tell us about it. What's your experience in actually knowing that space-like awareness, knowing that resting in that uncontrived singularity? Like, every one of us knows that singularity. We all know that unique feeling of being, of being whatever, even being me, whatever that me means. Because that me can be, Nisargadatta says it in a beautiful way.

He says that me can be small, or it can expand and embrace the universe. So, whatever the me actually means, everybody knows how it is to be me. And there is a uniqueness of the pattern to be experienced. And there is that underlying awareness. Yeah. And that underlying sense of presence that, thanks to which the uniqueness of pattern can be experienced. Yeah. Teacher, there is something. Oh, you want to? If the me expanded to fill the cosmos, then that still wouldn't be, it still would be artificial. If the me became cosmic, but it still wouldn't be, it still wouldn't be artificial. I suppose. At least, it still would be a self, a localized self.

A person, so-called personal self. That's what me is. My self ... Is a personal self, but there is only one self. Tony? Can you give me speaker? It's total self, self-aware, self-shining. Self-knowing, self-seeing. We think it's me that's seeing, but it's not. It's the self that's seeing. So, if the, if the me became as wide as the universe, it's still not the self. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. self, it's still artificial. I don't think that's what Nisargadatta meant. No. I mean, the way I was reading, the whole quote was about love. He was showing how everything is love, how fear is actually love for the self or for the body, how seeking is love for the wisdom.

And he says everything is love and that love can be love is life and life is love. And that love can be small or it can expand. And then he says love for the me and the mine and the me can be localized or it can be limitless. But that sense of presence, it never goes away. It isn't something that, you know, when we say nothingness, we don't say emptiness or void, we say cognizing emptiness. So that emptiness has the capacity of knowing, it is aware emptiness. So it could be called ultimate self and some call it this way. And when Nisargadatta says about me being bound by the, you know, limited by the image of the body or being completely infinite, unlimited, I think he rather meant unlocalized because you can't, you know, if the me expands and embrace all the space, the whole space and whole universe and the whole everything is in the me, you can't actually pinpoint any center to the space or to the universe.

But we would have to ask him. But can you call it me then? That's how he called it. Well, that's how they translate it anyway. That's how they translate it in I Am Down. But that's all our problem is, the personal self, me or I. It's the only problem we've ever had, I never liked that. But it's impersonal. When you look at the person, is there such a thing? Where does that word come from? Persona. Persona, the mask. Pointing out we've got this conceptual image, a mask, which we call I or me. But the true I is that one I that's expressing his energy, expressing his everything, one self or I.

This is what non-duality is about, not dividing but saying it never was divided, there's no division in it anywhere at all. That we believe there is when we take it on that personal self. That I was born, I'm living this life, I'm a human, I'm this, I'm that, I'm that. And what's the Mahavik? I am that. And we know that everything is that when you look at it. That's a chair, that's a carpet. That's you, that's me, that's the light, that's the mirror. Everything is basically that which we put labels or words on. What's the word? Is the word the real? Is the word the thing?

How many words are there? How many words were you born with? You realize you weren't born with any words in it and you didn't have any words for the first couple of years of your life. And you were living quite well without the word. Much better than what you're probably living now because parents were taking care of you, if you had a good set of parents. And making sure you had the sustenance and all the rest of it. Just the same as in all birds and insects, their parents look after them to a certain while until they can stand on their own two feet or fly or whatever and move out on their own.

But they haven't developed a word or a label to discriminate or separate themselves. They're just that pure functioning intelligence energy. Which is the one self, as I say, it's self-shining, self-aware, self-knowing. Not that we are knowing the self or the self itself is knowing. That knowingness in you, that knowingness in you, is knowing. That knowingness in you, is knowing. That knowingness in you, which will relate to the person, is self-knowing, it's self-aware. What are you doing about awareness? As the person, as the individual, as the me. You probably search for awareness, to see what is awareness for years and years and years. You've ever found it?

You haven't. But if you recognise just in this immediacy, you are not unaware right now. So you must be aware. But what that awareness is, without putting the concept or label or image on it, you can't say what it is. So as you put the concept, label or image on it, you've lost sight of its reality, its actuality. So is the screen, you know, that screen, is that an awareness connected to all our sense organs? Is the screen connected to our sense organs? That's how the screen becomes aware. And the screen is aware. The sense organs are connected to the awareness. Yes. But anything takes place inside of it.

And that's what Satyajit Nanda is, being. You can't negate your existence. Knowing, you can't negate the knowingness. The knowingness is intelligence. And you recognise that intelligence is with that body right now. It's breathing it, beating your heart, growing your hair and your fingernails, digesting your food, all quite naturally and spontaneously. And what did you or I as the person do about that to make it happen? Not a thing. The intelligence in the sperm, which came from the essence of the food, eaten by your father and the prana, the chi, the air, the prana, got that intelligence out of that essence and the mother, the same prana, air or chi, and the same food essence, enabled an ovum or an egg to form in the mother.

Now both of those two little microscopic parts were suffused within that intelligence. They weren't just dead, stagnant, still things. They knew what to do. The ovum knew it attached itself to all the uterus. It wasn't there before that egg formed in the body. It wasn't attached to anything. The same with the sperm. It wasn't there. It wasn't there. When they were formed, the intelligence hit the sperm, knew what to do. It swam. It's not again a static or a dead thing. It swam to the ovum. It knew where to swim to and how to penetrate the ovum. And when those two came together, what happened?

Those two doubled, doubled again and keep doubling. And out of that, the intelligence in those two formed a little embryo. Now you, believing in this personal entity, what were you doing about it then? You realize you didn't know anything at all about it. And you couldn't know anything because you didn't have a brain formed then. The intelligence in you to form a brain, the body for the brain to form, the eyes, the ears, the mouth, the digestive system, the blood, the organs and all the rest of it. How do you think all that came about? Was there a personal entity doing that? The innate intelligence knew what was necessary.

And even the words, if you've learned, and the brain form. Could you have the capacity of doing that without that intelligence in the body? Animals and that haven't got the capacity of reasoning to the extent we have. They have other capacities we don't have. And you see there's a far greater intelligence than what you or I as the person can ever like it to be. It's the same intelligence as rolling the earth around the sun right now. And this earth, the part we're on is facing away from the sun. So what's happening? It's going dark. Moving away from the light. That's all that the darkness is.

There's no something coming about, I'm going to be dark, I'm going to be light. All darkness is is the absence of light. And all light is is the absence of darkness when it rolls around the other way and faces the sun. And we look at all these things and see the way they're all functioning. And you see the wonderful and amazing diversity of it, the wondrous intelligence that forms galaxies out there. It's forming galaxies out there. Apart from growing your hair and your fingernails, digesting your food, breathing and doing everything else that's going on there. It's doing all these other things out there. Causing the tides to come in and out, the seasons to come and go.

Just the same as it's breathing, you're meeting your heart. Growing your hair and your fingernails. This is just a seeming smaller model of the functioning of that intelligence entity. Because it's all expansion and contraction around it. That's all it ever is. When you breathe, you expand your lungs. When you breathe out, you contract them. The heart's expanding and contracting. Throbbing and pulsating around the body. See out there, the energy is throbbing, pulsating and vibrating. All what we call life. We've got the label life on it. And this Argonaut has told you that's all there is. There's only life. There's no room for death in it anywhere at all.

Even this body, when we think it dies, what happens to it? Intrigation is not intrigation and changing anymore. Disintrigation starts in that... Disintrigation, it forms enzymes, which are life-formers. Myriads and myriads of enzymes. And they start getting a feed out of this body, rotting it, breaking it down. And what's left, the residual, might be chemicals or something, it'll go into the earth. And there might be a seed in the earth waiting for some... more chemicals to come in. A drop of rain will fall on it. And the heat of the sun, that seed will expand and just the same intelligence that's in that seed will expand it and the little sprout will come forth.

And something will eat the sprout and something will eat the thing that eats the sprout. Some sprouts will... Enough sprouts will survive to keep the pattern going. Just the same, there'll be enough human bodies to survive. So it goes on and on. Life lives on life. Out of life, more life comes. And what are you and I? Take a leaf out of what Christ said. He said, I am the way. I am the life. I am the truth. He's not talking about himself as people think he was. He's big noting himself. He wasn't. He was talking about that sense of presence which in the Saga of the Earth Chalice that I am-ness or that sense of presence translates through the mind as the thought I am.

If that thinking process was going on could you say I am? And if you hadn't learned those words I am could you say it even then without those words? The cat's not saying I am, I am, I am but it knows that it is. The worm that's in the ground is not saying I am, I am but it knows what it is. You and I, we know what we are. But we haven't taken any notice of that. We've gone along with the herd, the people that tell you instead of looking in and seeing it and recognizing it, how it's all functioning for yourself they tell us to look out there.

To acquire, to amass, to accumulate, to add to. A better education, more wealth, a loving family, a good job, a bigger, a better car. Get all these things that will make you whole and complete. That's what we've done. And nobody, very few, down through the ages has always been so well-tell you. You were never ever separate in the first place. What are you trying to add to that which is already total? And to see how that works when you're there. Have you ever seen the millionaire that's got enough? Never. They've never got enough. The job's not good enough. The wife's not good enough or whatever it is, the family.

More and better as we go along. Not realizing we are already totality. Already and always and ever have been. The totality. And then some of the so-called sages and sages down through the ages have written about this, pointed to it. And you'll see it in the insights and some of the quotes they make. Even ordinary people said it, like Shakespeare. He said there's nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so. Pointing out he must have recognized the way the thinking was functioning. A vibration. Thinking is a vibration, a movement of energy. And see how it functions. It's always vibrating dualistically. Have a look at this thing you call mind and see how it's functioning.

Is it functioning any other way than in the pairs of opposites? Functioning either other than good or bad? Pleasant or painful? Happy, sad? Loving, hating? Positive, negative? There are the boundaries we've encapsulated ourselves in in the word. We've built a cage of words around us and enclosed ourselves in the word. And there are the boundaries we've limited ourselves. Good, bad, pleasant, painful. Happy, unhappy. Depressed, joyful. Watch your mind and see how it functions any other way. See it for yourself. Quite simple. Because nobody can hear these things a million times. You're not going to take any notice of it. I heard it wasn't a body, it wasn't a mind for years.

Oh yeah, that's a good one, yeah. But when I'm looking, I've got to become something. Not realising that becoming, I'd moved away from being into the concept of a future time by becoming something. Becoming is not being right now. It's about a future time. And won't that make you look at time and see if there is such a thing as a future time? And now we've taken on this concept of time, have we ever questioned it? When you do question it, you see there's no such thing as time. Time is duration. Now can you pinpoint duration? Where did five minutes, where's five minutes ago now?

Is there a static point saying that's five minutes ago? Is there a moment in the future that's going to be static? And a thousand light years away, is that static? Was there a big bang, was that a starting point? Was there something for the big bang to appear in? Realise time is duration. And look at, see where you begin and end, you see you can't. And ask yourself, when does this present moment, when does this now begin? Alright, I'll let you onto it right now, now. It's already gone. Now, try it again, now. So there's no point where you can pinpoint the so-called now. Where's it going to end?

Tomorrow? Next day or the day after? For a start off, when you see there's no beginning, you see it can't have an end. But if you believe there's a beginning, try and find the static point which is the end of it all. They say the Earth is going to come to an end at some time or other. Blow this Earth up tonight. Put a thousand or a million atom bombs in it. Blow it to smithereens, there's nothing left. If it all be there, who would it be? There wouldn't be a particle that would be outside of space. Every particle would be there, still the content of space.

Could you call it an Earth anymore? You could. It's the same when this body breaks down into the, as I pointed out before, into the dust or the ashes or anything. Are there any particles that have lost anywhere? Can we look? The shape and form is gone. The essence. Nothing can be added to this totality. Nothing can be taken away. This is the simplicity of non-duality and it's not even non-duality. Because duality is a concept also. Can there be duality without non-duality? Can there be non-duality without duality? And when we're talking about non-duality, we're talking about some conceptual idea which we're trying to attain. Just we're trying to...

Trying to attain liberation or self-realisation. The self-awareness. All for this personal self. My self. You see, when you say you're not the body or the mind, you know that when you look at, say, my body. You say my house, my car. Are you the house, the car? Or the coat or the shirt? They're all mine. You know you're not them. So how can you be my body? Whose? Your coat, your car, your house and all the rest of it, along to this conceptual idea of a personal self. Me. Me or I. Me owns it. And you call this personal self my self. And you're saying it even then.

My self is just the same as the house or the car. It's not you. It's the personal self. But there is one self. It's patterning, shaping and forming and appearing as everything. And as they say, it's self-shaping. Shining. Shines of itself. It's the radiance and effulgence of itself. The light of being. Dynamic. Energy. Vibrating and shining in its vibration. In its fullness. You are that. Take hold of it. With both your hands. Grasp it around the throat wherever you can. Make it your own. At point. Understand it and recognize where nobody can throw you off that perch ever. No matter what you say, think or do.

When you say that's not it. Could you have those concepts if it wasn't for that life essence that you are? You couldn't have a single thought if you can't say it's not this or it is this. That's what I say to that fellow that says in the scriptures. I am I. He realized I am I who is consciousness or awareness. All this is fictitious. Like a dream. And they tell you that in Buddhism. It's a phenomenal manifestation. And he goes on further to say. What does it matter what I say, think or do? Don't think you're going to lose it if you say some words that are not it.

What does it matter? And it doesn't matter. That means it hasn't conceptualized. It hasn't solidified. Thinking in us. It doesn't mean to say you're going to do away with thought necessarily. But thinking that. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Being self-aware just to realize. There is no self. Like. Yes. That. Yes. Without that. But you're not functioning as a person anymore. Though you still believe you are. You're functioning from the totality. Just the same as that in the womb. You weren't functioning as a person then. What was wrong with that? That's what I mean. Why? Why? It's weird because I know there's not really an answer.

But why? I don't know why I'd be self-aware. If everything before self-aware was just, you know. Is there a difference between intelligence and knowing then? Because I feel like the knowing almost comes from being self-aware. But then there's no self. So. And you always think that the universal self or what we call that was always self-aware. So that's a big joke. As far as that goes. It never wasn't self-aware. I'm sitting here like. When I was at the last meeting. when Kat was talking I like was thinking about how Kat looking at me was bringing me into existence and me looking at Kat was bringing Kat into existence and therefore his existence between us like I just had this I was like who's bringing who because one has to be there to bring the other I just noticed that without a thought but like pointy silent fart and the pointy ears of the cat there was no location of any of them yeah without a thought there was just like some pointy and even they weren't even pointy they were just noticed because they were I guess pointy but at the time without a thought there was no didn't matter they weren't anywhere in particular see what insights has brought up you see you see have a look at those insights that are coming up see what comes from them from him also you kind of paraphrased with Bob was answering Tony's question when Tony was asking I don't know if you got your answer because she just paraphrased it the question the question you actually asked is it that the basic screen is connected to the senses and Bob was answering you no the basic screen has given itself has dreamt itself a body just the way you know we are kind of Bob is sometimes saying in a spiel reasoning capacity we build the telescopes the microscopes and we can see other galaxies and through the computers and cameras we can see other location even though body is this location in this location so we give ourselves all that technology to actually expand and see more the same way the space the cognizing intelligence or cognizing emptiness has dreamt itself a body with the eyes and ears so it's not really that the life is connected to senses life has dream dreamt the senses and it's just as you say Kiran it's in the place where it dreams the senses it gets this projector so yes I'm projecting you you're projecting me we kind of reassure it our own existence through the through the device that brilliant device that is creating and transmitting and receiving all the time but in between if there is no device the emptiness the cognizing emptiness the being the being is still there the space is there the awareness is there but there's no way to know there is no way to express it's no way it can be self-aware because it doesn't have the medium that's why it's from the coordinates feels like like um I don't feel like I guess I feel like I haven't had the seeing of that yet in my you know what I mean like from my clouded vision or whatever it's happening I don't know what's happening it but um when you think about it but when you don't think about it the truth is when you stop thinking the seeing is there what I'm saying is if you become self you wear self-aware and then you realize there's no self and I know there's no answer to this so if that if you stop thinking is there a self if you stop thinking is there a self if you stop thinking is there a self if you stop thinking do you have the self only when you think this is why I was saying with the you and the me is because I feel like the only reason why you feel like you have a body is because everyone else projects it because otherwise if we didn't have mirrors and we weren't like you wouldn't know so therefore that's kind of yeah I don't know I feel like I'm gonna say eloquently and then it just falls off does that give you a nice thought time when that concept comes up to you does that then put you into no thought yeah that's the eerie it's like it becomes that eeriness I think that's one of the things that before you even think about eerie or notice eerie is there it fries the brain okay that's what you mean yeah yeah well I mean ideally it's like you know say Bob says pause a thought and the thought pauses so and when you were saying that that the way you put it gave me a pause thought too because you totally forget what you said now but you you emptied out yeah a concept I think it does for a moment and then I try and wait wait wait what does that mean conditioning does that you know conditioning does that why what how can you say you are not no basically you know that I am when the saga does say stay with that I am this that's the beginning and end of all endeavors have everything you try that's the beginning and end of the lot and that'll reveal itself in different insights will come up through your mind yeah it's like the frustration comes from them what's the point like I don't know and then the answer isn't a point that there ask yourself well who would want to know yeah your mind me me I would want to know but wait a minute it's me that wants to know is it real I just look at it and see then mine also feels like thoughts have to be in that space then as well so aren't they then as real as the space if the thoughts are in the space yeah in the in the then aren't they as real as the space yeah or no the space the content of space or the strength is a theory the content of space and science is appearance it's a phenomenal manifestation and what's what's in the appearance is not real at all the reality is the space and the silence just the same as something you know those reflections appear in the mirror how real are the reflections they look real don't they have a look around the room behind you they look real you look to be real in there put your hand up and grab one so it all appears to be real and solid but that's what they tell you it's a phenomenal manifestation the whole manifestation is phenomenal and the definition of phenomena that which appears to be it's all appearing you and I appear as these body minds are appearing to be real but find a centre in that body if you can say this is where I begin this is what I am what is this that's been here all the way through go back 20 years did you have the same body did you have the same body did you have the same thoughts and feelings and emotions you go no is there anything the same now excepting that sense of presence which it's all appearing on I know that I felt the same when I was a girl I know that I felt the same when I was a girl obviously you've read so many books take that as a taste of it and that hasn't changed but your body and everything else the concepts and ideas have changed I have a really young memory of when I was like really young of going for a walk I just went for a walk and like because I couldn't talk properly or anything and I just left the house and I went all around the neighbourhood I was only little like really little and I was like looking at things and the neighbours were looking at me funny obviously because he was this little kid just out for a stroll and I got home and the police were there and stuff and like I just remember thinking what is the problem and I was so little but I was like in my head I was like you guys are idiots like I just went for a walk what's the issue and like my thinking then was no different to like now so I feel like that's probably the most natural you've ever been you know you call yourself an idiot people look at me and I'm like why are you looking at me like that like I remember a lady gardener you started to take on the concepts of what others were thinking that's so true what you said it's like this knocks that whole concept of self awareness on the head because yeah you're quite right what you said you said there is if there is no self you know what's the whole thing about self awareness so what Bob's pointing to here is there's only oneness so that self that everybody's been telling you you are that needs to be aware you're right it doesn't exist it's such a paradox my brain is trying to grasp it because it is such a paradox so that's the breakthrough what you've had tonight that's the breakthrough what you've had you know because you see that so so there you go I have a response which which sorts all this out oh good what is mine what is mine doesn't matter what is matter never mind beautiful beautiful that's exactly it never mind mind is never the matter often Call yourselves up in concepts.

And take them to be real. What Richard was saying before, I actually see where you were coming from, you know, when Nisargadatta was saying about the me. On one hand we say there is no me, or there is no self. On the other hand we are talking about the ultimate self or the me of the shape of the size of the universe. The confusion comes from the language. Because what is, you know, okay, there is no me. Who is speaking? Oh yeah, well, the life is speaking. So life has the me. No it doesn't. But there is, whatever. I mean the confusion is from the language.

If we come back to this experiential sense of I am, that experiential I am, it doesn't mean that there is I which is. It's just the translation. So when we say I am or we say me, it means that sense of presence, the awareness of presence. That's experiential thing. Now the me. And then I see also again where you were coming from because the me, it can be kind of, if there is no identification with anything, how can you identify with space? How can you identify with everything? How can you identify with nothing? The identification doesn't make any sense if there is zero or eternity.

Because the mind can only project or symbolize singular objects. Or even a mass. A mass of singular objects. But such a thing as zero or eternity is completely unimaginable for the mind. So identifying with totality or with everything is impossible. That doesn't make sense because the very word identification means to embody some part of the totality, not all of it. All of it is this identification. So instead of saying identify as everything. When Nisargadatta says me. That embrace the whole universe. So it almost feels like identify as the whole universe. You can't do it. You can easily say disidentify. Or identify as nothing. But the truth is whatever the words or the language will say, it will only be translation.

So what is being translated is the sense of presence. And sense of presence, whether identified or disidentified, is always there underlying. It is the changeless reality. Now, if that sense of presence is identified with the form, the body or the mind or the mental image, that's confined. If it's not, that's just vastness of being. But the being is always there. The presence is always there. Whether it is bound or it is boundless. Or whether it is limited or it is limitless. I remember sitting in 90 Hills up in South India. I was in a temple. I was in a temple. And I was sitting in the temple.

And I was sitting in the temple. And I was sitting in the temple. And I was sitting in the temple. And I was sitting in the temple. And I was sitting in the temple. And I was sit in the temple. And I was sit in the temple. And I was sitting in the temple. And I was standing at the curb south of India and meditating. And the – and I was maybe 10, 15 feet wide. And the bed, the electric fire, everything within that 10 or 15 feet circumference was still me. As in localised self. There wasn't a sense of that expandedness being there. ham?

that and I've also had a couple of experiences in which the entirety of creation was within me but in that case there was an awareness of Richard and there was a softness in my heart, I mean it wasn't this heart, towards him but he was such a minute sliver of existence as to be irrelevant. So that's more what you're talking about but the first experience was meanness, it's just that it was a very wide meanness. Yeah, I get what you say because if there is anything outside, if there is any definition which there is still me there but 100 metres away there is no me anymore, then you're right, then you're still localised.

Like what's accessible in the lexicon. Yes. And I grew up where there's bobs if you don't think about it. So words can still be floating past or thoughts can be floating past but you're not thinking about it. Yes. So there's no meaning making being applied. That's right. And to me that's the purest, you know. Absolutely. Helps me the most, yeah. And the experience when you were talking Richard about meditating, I had a lot of different sort of meditations, big mind processes and experiments with the consciousness and altered states and normal states and what Tony is actually saying, you can expand the centre of the centre in a sense of a me but the moment you stop thinking, the expansion is impossible, it's just being.

Now when I was let's say sitting as a big mind, big mind, the mind that envelops everything, Buddha mind, unborn Buddha mind and then just embodying and just breathing out into it. Do I have any borders, any limits? No, I don't. Do I contain everything? Well, I don't really, it doesn't really, it's irrelevant. Because to actually check whether I contain the universe or not, I have to start thinking. To define my limits, I have to start thinking. To say whether I'm wise or not. Any questions, none of the questions would even be relevant in that case, because it is completely beyond language. And that place is where there is nothing to say, just pure being, just pure existence.

And there is still, because I was doing other processes in which, as you say, you kind of expand and you're kind of bigger, you can be even big as a room, you know, like they say the ego big like a room. But anyway, some sort of an identification with the shape. But beyond the room or beyond Australia, that identification doesn't really last that long. So you could actually circumfence it. So that's still playing with the mind. Because it is still imagining the borders, imagining what is within and what is without. That is still very, very conceptualised, very, very kind of imagination-based sort of experience. Which is, yeah, juicy, but it's not really, it's not fully.

When I was, the thinking was, when I was trying it now, when the thinking starts up again, it's like, oh yeah, there's this kind of this border round about this big wide circle here. But that's investigating a memory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the memory afterwards, that's a nice little thought process. So. Yeah. Before that, there wasn't, when there's no, there was no thinking about it. And then there's this, oh yeah, it was probably a visual about this big, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's just conceptualising. Yeah. And it's not that much fun trying to work out a visual. This bag is really boring actually.

It's important what's coming, so. Not to just, yeah. Certainly never, nobody will ever work it out in the mind. All the physicists and scientists and science scientists, there's none of them have ever worked it out yet. I think they will. No. So the ultimate answer is beyond the mind. So if there is any idea that, you know, I'm not getting, I didn't experience it, I didn't quite, I don't understand it, that's all, that's all head stuff. Because when the head is off, when you sit down in the core of your being or in the heart of your being or in the, you know, there is, in that place beyond language, beyond the mind, there is no idea that I don't get it.

There is no idea that there is something else to understand or something else required to experience. It's just this, this plain sense of being and passing content. And that's it. There's really no such thing as mind. We've taken on this concept, mind, my mind, and this mind, that mind. Show me a mind. What do you call mind? Really? Mm. There's nothing there apart from thoughts. And if thought is mind, which particular thought are you? Is there any thought you can say, this is what I am? Are you the I thought? Are you the me thought? Are you this thought or that thought? The chair, that's a thought.

Table, are you that? I was noticing the other day, I think it's quite useful, like I'm very tuned into logical thought, like I studied logic and stuff at university. And so I know immediately I have to think, oh, because of that, therefore that must mean that. But I know that's in the realm of logic and nothing to do with thatness. And it's just very clear to me when that point is crossed, you know, very clear. So that I'm just realizing how helpful I think that has been. I hadn't really noticed the degree that that might not always be the case with people. I don't know.

Yeah. But I just know, and I know I have no interest in that side of it. I'm interested in this side. Even though to start with, I felt very, it felt very, very unavailable. I wasn't like psychic enough or energetic, you know. Mm. But I'm aware enough. Yeah. But the awareness of what it's not is actually pretty useful, you know. Yeah. It's actually brilliant. Yeah. When you actually even think, and Kiran, you too, if you think that there is something else that you didn't experience or somebody else might experience, or there is something to be understood yet, that's, it's very subtle to actually see how to see that this is really coming from the computer.

Yeah. And it's not conceptual, imaginary thinking, because it feels so genuine. It feels like a really question coming from the heart. But the good way to actually see that this is plainly conceptual, imaginary thinking is, how do you know? How do you know that there is something more, that Bob knows something that you don't, or he experienced something that you didn't? Because if you say that there is something else that I have to experience, you know, that self-realization or self-awareness. Yeah. that there is assumption that it could be experienced, that maybe Cole experienced it, or Bob experienced it, or anyone else, and you don't. And see, you can't really know that there is something Bob experienced and you didn't.

So it really is just a thought. It really, it feels so true, but it really, really is just a thought, it's just an idea. It's like that saying, what's the difference between enlightened being and unenlightened being? And the answer is simple. An unenlightened being thinks there is a difference. Because enlightened knows there isn't. He knows, and I know, and quite a few people here know, that there is nothing that we experience and you didn't. You understand. You understand. You absolutely experience and understand everything fully. It is just so transparent that it doesn't seem important. It doesn't seem meaningful. Like, come on, it can't be just this, like just being.

Come on, it must be something more juicy. It is just being. It's just so transparent, it's so subtle that we don't, because the way we kind of condition our self to experience the reality is to go for really extreme experiences. Like look what we did with the tastes. We put salt and sugar into everything. Look at what we do with physical experiences. We climb the mountains and dive the lakes. And we, you know, we have extreme orgasm or even, you know, give ourselves pain and stuff like this. All the sensory experiences are so extreme. Are so extreme. And if we want to live fully, we will turn the volume up even more.

We will have louder music, faster music, more dancing, more party, more partners, more books, and especially in the head, more movies, more games. Very, very intense experiences. Really shocking. So we kind of desensitized ourselves from the subtlety of being. It feels blunt. It feels boring. So now it can't be this enlightenment. Come on. So we seek for something like peak experience, another orgasm or another big bang or the fireworks or something. But the truth is in the absence of mind that is comparing and judging everything as worthy or unworthy or intense enough or pleasurable enough, that beauty of that subtlety of being, when that one's themes when it when it comes for it it teaches you its own sweetness that over time it over time it could happen right now but it it may be incomparable with the dream like you know it's the screen and it's the movie on the screen the movie can be very fast like Bob is giving example of cowboys and in Indians killing each other blood gunshots so much going on in the movie but the screen it doesn't get a hole in the screen because of the gunshots it doesn't burn when the when there is a fire in the movie it doesn't get blood on it when the movie is done it's untouched and when that untouched basic screen it's when the attention flows back to its own self it brings that bliss of being but to start with because we just habitually translate everything through that computer it kind of feels blunt it feels unworthy of attention and it actually can't get any attention because attention has to hang on to an object of attention and there is no object there so it is really kind of withdrawing attention from objects rather than giving it to something so it's but it there is no place like home it is undeniably there and it's and there is sweetness in it there is there it is they call it love and and they do it for the reason there is a quality of love and and they call it even self love but that self is not a personal self it is it is again it's hard to describe undescribable but it I'm sure you've experienced it in the moments when the self was off you know like I used to have those experiences since early childhood in the moments of absolute Beauty when the beauty of course it was kind of the definition of the beauty it could be a dark thunderstorm with lightning and and and that was understood as a beauty and I would just shut down the mind and in this moment the break from everything, from thinking, from conceptualizing, from comparing, and just resting, dissolving into the moment where there was no self-definition going on anymore.

So everyone has these moments. Artists, they have these moments. Sports people, when they are in the zone, when they're completely taken by whatever the body was trained to love, everyone has these moments. In the moment of orgasm, nobody is constructing the separate self. There's no attention for it. And gosh, this is underlying every experience. But even the free samples that we have in the morning of it, before the full download of the day, who am I, what am I going to do, oh, it's a Monday or whatever, I have to go to work, I hate to go to work, I hate to go to work.

You know, all that. You know, all that crap when it comes down. Before this happens, there is just being. And before I even open the eyes, there is just being. It never goes away. Then the hearing kicks in, and the sounds are heard. Maybe some thoughts are also heard. And then the sensations in the body, they come slowly. And they're a distraction. And they're a beautiful distraction. It's nothing wrong. Bob has these distractions. believe me how he loves his food so it's nothing wrong with fully experiencing the the moment the take advantage of the right really hear and feel and taste and touch and smell and live with those senses but the moment with the of the free sample or the moment of the gap when the self is not being constructed in the moment with no thinking when is just pure essence of being expressing itself is the moment in which we can see how the separate self is redundant how the life goes on without asking questions without having problems without looking for anything seeking anything how the life is actually flowing naturally sometimes it flows very fast sometimes it flows very very slow sometimes they are pleasurable sensations sometimes there are unpleasant sensations but all of it this is just the way life expresses itself and on top of it there is said there is an idea that no not this something else something more something bigger more understanding more pleasure we're recognizing those overlay like ideas for what they are brings us back to the natural flow planned that natural to the sensing of the being underlying because it almost is as as the dream dream is extremely complex like you know the as Tony was asking the question whether the screen is having is connected to the senses now the screen has dreamt or the space has dreamt itself the vehicle and many many different forms it has shaped vibrated into many different forms so it experienced itself it has a glimpse of itself dreaming to be an other because it is still all the one but it dreams to be other something else some body or some object or some form it's not true it's a dream but that layer of a dream is a right and it's a fabulous right it's an it's it's it's an adventure that layer of the dream is that layer of the waking dream is pretty juicy and pretty pleasurable this is the dream of the dream of the dream of the dream of the dream of the dream of the dream of the dream when the suffering kicks in with another layer overlaying the five senses seeing hearing tasting touching smelling when the thinking kicks in and there is an identification with a project of thinking with the object that the thinking also made of thoughts object the thinker this one makes the dream a nightmare because this thinker he wants to know he wants wants to understand it wants to be better it wants to grow it wants to become worthy this thinker thinks it is something else than life something separated from life and that that is painful and that is unnecessary so yes I like this is so apparent and then I followed up so if you take away the thought what is there and that's it and that's another thought yeah just take all the way yeah I think my version of her issue is more relaxed as both I'm kind of lucky at this point but um yeah probably like actual questions of how this all works they were sort of sorted out in the first year or so but especially as it became more contextualized or a heavy taste of them they're underlying me opening my mouth in the last couple of years have really been about okay get a bunch of the experiences that I mentioned you know I've had tiny flashes of them or seconds or whatever and I totally get what you're saying you know I know those things and then there's a bunch of stuff I don't get and so it's really because you've talked about languaging and stuff it's It's really any kind of statement I make or anything I kind of bring up is really a query out to the room, because I think that's how I grew up, to communicate with people.

Query out to the room, you know, and then me taking the information back. Just casually, I'm not actually that bothered, to see what's languaging and what's actual stuff that, this is my wee story at the moment, and it's so apparent to me it's just a story, a more abiding time, you know, time to look around and go, oh, there's no body, no, no, no, whatever, would raise some things that I don't yet, that I haven't yet experienced. Whether it's just languaging, that it's not being kind of looking, seeing in the same detail or the same way I would. So what have you not experienced? I think it was quite a lot of things come up.

Oh, God, it's so crap at memory data. Sometimes, like... Like, for example, the notion of love. Sometimes I feel like someone or something will trigger a resurge of what I would call love, and if it's not made into further story, it's just left at this resurge of love. But generally, when I go empty, empty, empty, it's what I would call joy that pops up, and smiles, face goes up, things happen, and it's joyful, but I wouldn't say it was love. Yeah. It's not as warm. It's not as warm. Love can be a bit of... That word, you've got to be careful. Yeah, it's a very loaded word.

It's very loaded, right. Yes, it wasn't a romantic love. I don't really... Yeah. Yeah. But they call it... For me, it's... And it calls joy. For me, it's equanimity. Mm. Mm. That's not... That's a word. I don't know. With a bit of joy in it. But I don't know. Peace, stillness, maybe. I don't know. Because it's all concepts, really. It doesn't matter. And I think just the fact we mentioned the word love may be triggering a wee bit of love. Yeah, yeah. Love for the peace. Right now, that kind of combo. Yeah, and then there's other things like... Oh, wow, I really noticed I wasn't the body.

Like, I might have had a flash in last week of, oh, God, there's no body. You know, very brief. And I've had a few times where, oh, it's just this knee thing moving up and down. And it's totally unattached. But, you know, a handful of times in, you know, two and a half years. And now people have got this abiding, oh, my God, there's just really no... All this stuff. So I haven't really experienced that. For example, it's another one. But are you sure? Because, you know, I hear people and I can say this. And when I hear them, I can relate to it. When they say, oh, you know, there is no body, you know.

Like, I don't experience my face right now. I don't really have any face. And when people say, yeah, I don't really. I don't have any body. And now I see where they come from energetically. I know what they are experiencing is what I'm experiencing. But the way you present it, I could agree with you. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, I don't experience it that way either. But the truth is, whether you do or you don't, you can never, ever, not in a million years, you can never, ever know that. Because people language things differently. When someone says, oh, no, I experience I have no body. And now I have the imagination what he experienced and I compare it with myself.

No, no, no, I don't get that. I don't experience this one the same way. You only can experience. You only have to compare using imagination. There's some things that are good enough, like, you know, just about. Every time you say the pause the thought thing to somebody, what is there? And they just go, well, you know. And as clear as a bell, that's pretty much a similar experience to what I'm getting, you know. And then maybe one person said, no, I don't really get that one. Yeah, yeah. And that just seems to me pretty clear, you know. It's just the way they just, you know, there's no meaning making happening for them right then.

You can tell. Yeah, there's some of these, yeah. But that's all there is, really. It just comes down to food stock. Yeah, that's what I see. And that's the basis I'm kind of on. And everything else that comes. Yeah, yeah. And maybe one day another thing will drop and go, yeah, did you get that one? I really didn't get that before, you know. So it's kind of casual, but it just always seems to be thrown up all the time by this entity, you know. Yeah. But, you know, it's just worth it. Just in case a gym shows up and triggers something. Worthy of noticing that every idea coming that I experience this or I experience the same what they experience or don't comes from comparison.

And comparison is mental activity. And that no body thing, you know, the way others are explaining it like you were saying, it could just be when, you know, no meaning making is happening. Yeah, there's no body thought happening. That's absolutely clear. Yeah. Yeah. For that very brief moment for me because everything triggers it. Relatedly, no body in story and all that, this whole thing of reincarnation and karma and all this, like if one is that, what could possibly reincarnate? Exactly. Very good question. Yeah. And no need for answer. No, no. And same with karma. It just seems to be in that case just more story.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It is just more story. One experience I've had and I wonder if it's an in between experience. Just because I sit with the feelings of the past, I don't know if it's a real thing. I don't know. I think it's more feelings more, there's more adrenaline felt. Because I would have darted away, there would have been a darting away before, you know, to avoid the, it would have been seen as discomfort for some reason. And so there's adrenaline buzz, you know, in this, I don't know, that's not quite the same as that felt joy that happens when there's really nothing, nothing, nothing. But maybe that's what people are talking about sometimes when they talk about an element of the bliss.

It's just they're actually getting some of the excitement and stuff they couldn't face before. I don't know. I don't know. Well, everyone would label experience differently too, I guess. Yes. That's exactly. That's what it sounds like to me. So like your feeling of adrenaline would be like a rush for someone else, which would be experienced as bliss or like static joy or like fear or excitement. They can probably take more of it than I can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm probably shutting it down a bit earlier still. No, like I've had moments where I feel like my, meditating my arm feels like, it's quite a common thing that happens to me, like it feels like my right arm is on backwards.

Yeah, another one. And it's really just a strange thing. Like if you're like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like and it feels like it's like this, that it's just like this. I get that a lot. There's something out of like a Japanese horror film. Yeah or like there was one night where I was like, like I meditated and my head started shaking violently for like three, four hours, how long? Yeah. Like my whole body locked up and like, I was like, what can I do, what can I do?

Yeah, like that's what it feels like. Yeah. was like my legs were out like this and it was just so but i did that didn't panic me yet the moment my mind starts perception starts changing i panic so it's like i would think that my body feeling like it's being completely taken over would panic me more than that but it doesn't i'm just like oh yeah i'm shaking now now i'm making noises yeah i realize that now like i had a lot like even sitting here i get the feeling of becoming small and like the fire i feel like a bit like my lower back and there's like a buzzing i'm constant at the moment but um as soon as it goes to the mind with them and i think it's because the mind starts to kind of dissipate and maybe that's the sense i get like that starts to flatten it and then it starts to kind of break it and then it starts to stop and then it starts and then it starts to kind of stop and then it starts to fade and then it starts to look like feel eerie, like I keep saying, it's not so much, sometimes it's the fear we talk about which isn't real, you know, we've discussed.

That eeriness. We try and interfere with the mind, instead of leaving it, do what it's got to do. The physical things I have no issue with letting it happen. The physical parts of like, we were talking about with Kundalini, I have no issue with that, I don't resist that at all. But when it comes to the perception changes, when they happen suddenly, I seem to fight like a bear in a corner trying to get away from hunters or something. So I'm trying to kind of... Control. Yeah, I don't know. Strange. But if you see the whole process. I mean, you're not alone. You're not alone in fighting to gain the control over the perception or whatever, as just part of the display.

You are the screen and on the screen there is Kiran losing the mind or losing the body or having all sorts of different experiences. And also Kiran trying to resist it and control it. So you see the whole process, including the resistance. And now, if you, in this moment, because in those like really heated moments, it's actually not always... It's not always even available to wake up and see the scene as the scene. You're so identified with it, there is nothing you can do. But if there is an opening and availability to actually see the process, losing perception, trying to grab it, trying to control it, just see the whole movement, the trying, the resistance, seeing it all, like really embrace the whole scene.

Don't exclude anything. Like, oh, I am watching this and I am trying to do this. No. No. The watching and the trying is all happening in the awareness and you are the awareness. There is probably, I think, I feel there is a strong concept of maybe the losing the mind thing being related to being crazy. Like when I was younger, and I have just said the experience before, how when I had that experience when I was younger, I felt like the first thought that popped into my head after it happened was don't tell anyone. Oh yes. Because they will think you are crazy. And my auntie had mental illness.

And she was like, I am not going to tell anyone. I am not going to tell anyone. I am not going to tell anyone. And like a few people had mental illness. And I was like straight away, you know that, it is that loss of control and you start thinking, I must be crazy. So I think when the perception things start, there is a grasping because there is that whole, I might go insane. Like this feels like insanity. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yes. It is losing the mind but in a different manner. Eventually, that will disappear. Because I am the one who is losing the mind.

I've had, you know, the terrifying moments. Towing the water, towing the water, oh foot now. Yeah, like what I said, some people might have that with physical stuff. Like, you know, if your body starts doing weird things, then you might feel like, oh wow, that's what's really scary. But to me, that's, it's the other thing that's scary. The losing the... Do you notice that, like, if the thought is seen earlier, creeping in at more the beginning of the thought than the end, it goes sooner or becomes meaningless quicker or is less... I think the last time I felt like something like fear arose and I remembered, like, the meetings and what Carla said and what Kat and Bob had said about, like, try and go, almost like go into it more and try and be curious.

Mm. And so, like, when my heart started going, instead of labelling it straight away as fear, I was kind of like, oh no, like, what is this? Like, you know, but it still, like, it seemed to not, um, it just kind of dissipated. Yeah, it doesn't develop much. Yeah. But it didn't go into that terror, because the one time I had that complete terror, I mean, I was on the couch calling out to him and he was in another room, I couldn't move. Mm. And I was, like, crying. I was, like, so afraid and... Were you meditating or did it just... Resist. Resist. Resist. I was meditating.

But, like, I don't do anything when I meditate. I just close my eyes and just don't... You know what, it's not uncommon. Yeah, yeah. It really is a, that sort of stuff. It just, it felt like the space, like the, there was darkness and then that went, kind of went like this, and then it felt like the darkness kind of was looking at me. Mm. And I, it instantly reminded me of being a kid, an experience I had when I was a kid. Yeah. And I just, I was like, oh my god, they're back. Yeah. Like, it felt, it almost feels like a, um... An attack, like a psychic attack or...

Mm. And you're like, oh, they're gonna take me over if I let them take me over. I'm gone, you know, which is probably true. Mm. But not in the concept I'm giving it, you know. Yeah. Because you do feel that sense of annihilation incoming. Mm. Like, you're gonna get annihilated quick. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. But I guess you're not even open to that if you've busy been curious about, you know, the thought. It goes that way. Yeah. It goes another way. Mm. Yeah. And also, you know, you, you will witness your own annihilation, but the screen is still untouched. Yeah. Mm. It's like when we were talking about lucid dreams.

Yeah. And I've only, um, I used to, actually when I was younger I used to dream in third person. Mm. So I'd see myself doing stuff. Oh. And then I cottoned onto it. I was like, oh, I don't know how to know if I'm... I see myself and then that was the first night I never, I didn't dream in third person. Mm. So I was like, oh, I don't know how to know if I'm... I see myself and then that was the first night I never, I didn't dream in third person. Oh, good. I started dreaming from a first person point of view and I was like, ah, because it really frustrated my brain.

Mm. Um, and so I remember one lucid dream where I was like being chased by a guy with a chainsaw. And for whatever reason, yeah, I was on this farm. I think they made a movie about that. I was on this farm. On this farm. And there was this guy and he was like, rah, rah, rah. And for whatever reason I snapped into going, oh, I'm dreaming. And I went, okay, the guy's about to cut your arm off. And I was like, oh, I'm dreaming. And he was like, oh, I'm dreaming. And I was like, oh, I'm dreaming. And I was like, oh, I'm dreaming.

And he was like, oh, I'm dreaming. And he said, oh, please don't be dreaming anymore. You can choose to wake up. Or you can choose to experience getting your arm cut off. And I chose to wake, I just woke up. Oh. The devils have got to evolve. You've got to go down from a pense12'dowel. And Billion farm. It wasn't so serious as soon as I realised, like we said, it seems I realised I was dreaming. Um, it wasn't so serious. Like, oh. Ooh. Oh, cool. I can have this experience. Once you realise the dream is a dream, you get a lot of relief out of it, yeah.

You wake up to this one and not from it. So, like, in that one, I... Well, you know, it's still within whatever this is, but I chose to wake up from it. Yeah. Who chose to wake up? Yeah. And to what? I still have my answer. From it, but to what? That's why my answer is back to... Yeah, so you woke up from the lucid dream into this dream. This is also a dream. Can you see it? That you woke up from being a person who was just about to lose her arm into a person who doesn't have to lose the arm. But that person is also a dream.

Your mind hates every bit of it. I know. You can see it. My mind's like, it has so much continuity. Yeah. It has. Yeah. Continuously. That's how brilliant you are as a dreamer. You just make the well-done job, you know? You fall for your own illusion. Yeah. That's why Bob calls it intelligence. It's brilliant. The British mental health organisation is called Mind Out. Yes, I... Maybe I should write to them and see if they have any advice on how to... how to achieve that. Mind out. Mind out, yeah. Oh, you're gonna say, my doubt. I mean, if they're... Doubting mind. They should have some ideas on how to do it, shouldn't they?

Mm. Mind out for yourself. Yeah, maybe they just need mind out for boogeymen or something. Training the mind to mind the dream. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. What do you want? Anything. What do you got? Yeah, what can you give me? What can you give me? What I don't already have. Yeah, well there you go. You are complete right now. Yeah, he has nothing to give you. He can only take away some illusions. But he can't give anything. Greedy bastard. What? Can't give anything. You only take away things. Okay, I see. I see. Yeah, he says that the time has caught up with us.

Thank you very much. Thank you. See you next time.