Sailor Bob - Non Duality - Sufering is for the mind what pain is for the body - 30 10 18

Yeah, can you say your names? Robin, Tony, Karen, Kieran, Max, Terry. Thank you. And Bob? Off you go. Oh, off you go. We had this funny joke on YouTube. The cat lovers will probably know. There was an argument between two cats, and they obviously, very heated argument, where one cat was crawling down under the car and another cat was, why? And intimidating, the previous one. And somebody smart put out the commentary, the narrative, the little ego there. And the why was, why have you done it to me? Why have you cheated? I hunted rats for you. And why did you? And the whole story. And the whole story goes about.

And it became sort of one of our kind of little personal jokes. And it's quite meaningful because it cuts down every why. And imagine now what a potential to live without the why. Because every question why takes you right away to need to justify and tell yourself the story about something. So if I come late and Bob asks me why, I right away, meow! And we're laughing. And there is no need for justification. Not that I want to hide why I'm late, traffic or whatever. I will come back to it. But laughter is more important. Coming out of the mind and being in this moment of laughter, of being free from need to justify and tell ourself a story.

It's just so much lighter. And then, especially when the situation comes when people behave in a completely crazy way. Like, you know, they stab you in the back out of nowhere. And you don't really even want to understand them. Because why would you want to go to that mindset? You don't even want to do that. And then when anybody asks why, we're just laughing. Why? And that's the answer. Why? Because. Why? And then laughter. Because, yeah, one relevant situation when the question why can come handy, I haven't found. I haven't. It's just like, can you even think of a situation when going to the mind for the story would be superior or better than leaving the reality?

Leaving that moment. Being utterly awake to the senses, to the informations that come through the senses of the body that are present now. Because any answer coming from thinking is the imagination. Any answer to why. Why you eat what you eat. Why you do what you do. Why you think what you think. It's always a story about what is not. So to actually just play with the why. Have fun with the why. Rather than go and answer that why. And then later when it becomes light, of course it may come up and there's nothing wrong with that. I just, I don't know. It just came up when he set me up again.

Why? Why? Why? Why? Yeah. Yeah. Another good answer to the question why is I don't know. That's always a great place to be. I don't know. I don't need to know. Which means the answer to the question why is completely out of my interest. Because instead of going to the head and finding that answer, that I don't know shuts down the mind. The mind that doesn't know is no mind. So, and then it brings us back to this reality of this moment. And then there is hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. Livingness, aliveness is going on. And even that sensory information are just appearance on the screen.

They also appearance. They, you know, everything that we see has beginning and an end so to speak. Or it is temporary. It's time bound. It shows up. It shows up and disappears. Every sound comes and goes. So they all unreal. They all just passing phenomena. And what is actually most phenomenal, amazing and beautiful is that they can appear because of the awareness of presence and presence of awareness. So that's the prerequisite. I am, therefore I experience. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. And the saying I experience is wrong. Because there is no I that experiences. There is just an experiencing. The life is experiencing. There are thoughts, there are objects in the seeing, objects in the hearing, objects, tastes, touch, smells.

They are all objects appearing because of I am. Because of the presence of life or whatever. Yes, so it applies to everything. And it actually summarizes everything. The rest is the story. And we may still love the stories. The stories may be of service. The stories may be helpful. A lot of stories that Bob is telling us in the Spiel are really enlightening stories. Like the stories that take off the guilt of the separate me. By showing how that me is completely innocent in the way it kind of forms and is. In the way it kind of forms and sticks new thoughts and experiences to itself.

Like you are two, two and a half. And you are told who you are, what you are, what's your nationality, what's your religion. You are attracted to your mother eating certain foods because she is radiating happiness. So you will like the same type of foods. Or maybe you will react the opposite. And all that stuff comes up completely innocently. Completely mechanically. None of it is your fault. We call it a conditioning. But none of it is anybody's fault. It's just the functioning. So that is the story. Because it doesn't happen right here, right now. I am not two and a half year old. I am not two year old.

The past is only there when I think about it and imagine it. So it only exists in the head. And yet that story very often is a game changer for people who suffer of guilt. And shame. When they realize that nothing is of their doing. They are not the doers of their character. They cannot become different or better of their own volition. Because the volition or free will is also part of a pattern. If I have certain pattern I will resonate with certain instructions. And I won't resonate with others. So there is no space for any choice making. So everything is spontaneous. The instrument has been tuned in to sound this particular way.

And it is being tuned in and is tuning in moment to moment. And that's again the story. Because it's only this moment. But the stories are a good illustration. And we all love the stories. So we can know them for what they are. And use whatever is helpful about them. So do you have any helpful stories? That are speaking to you particularly loud. And that are really helpful. Because whatever is helpful for you could be helpful for anyone. For everyone. And even just telling your own favorite story or favorite pointer out loud. And hearing yourself vocalizing it. And putting it in your own language. Is actually re-tuning it.

Because that's again the frequency that is tuning that instrument. That body again and again. So even repeating the same fragments. Or the same. Like Bob is repeating the spiel for so many years. And it's always when he is saying it. He's always fully in the moment with it. It's not that he puts the tape recorder and kind of goes automatically or mechanically. No. Because you can see how it brings life to him. How as he speaks he wakes up and his eyes shine. He's completely re-tuning that instrument into this frequency. So it is all about tuning out of the why and the stories and the mind.

And the problems of self-center. My problems. My ideas. My future. My past. My drama. Back into that. That they call it primordial sound of OM or whatever. That I AM. That pure awareness of existence. And from that place everything is already as it is. It's already allowed. It's already welcome. And it doesn't matter what it is. It may be something. Like this morning we had a conversation with Germany. That the girl says fear. The fear was coming up. How do you know it's fear? If you don't label it fear. Excitement has kind of similar frequency of vibration. If you don't call it fear it may be whatever else.

It's just a sensation going through that body which is a mirror. Which is a medium for that particular frequency. Just like the water may be a medium when you drop the stone for the waves. Or the air is a medium for the sound. The body enables certain sensations. To be experienced. Certain vibrations to be experienced. The gaze enables the gaze which is eyes and the seeing. Because there isn't that the eye is seeing a thing. It's just a space of seeing. That's a medium for objects. Space of hearing. The medium for sounds. So we call it space or we call it air for the sound.

But it's really just the way the different frequencies appearing. As different shapes and forms. And fashioning, shaping, forming. How you call it? Pulsating, throbbing. A lot of words in a way that one essence expresses itself. In the unthinkable amount of shapes and forms. Especially when we think about thoughts. How much the mental image adds to the expression. We have seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking. And those are all areas of expression of that one life. And we are that life. I am that life. There is no we really. It's just that one life. So if you recognize that. This is another story. Bringing down all the frequency.

Back into the stillness. Every movement back into the stillness. And recognizing that that one essence. Appears as absolutely every frequency. Every movement. And then you understand that everything is that one essence. You can't be anything else or anything different than just that one essence. Then there is nowhere to go. In that recognition that there is nowhere to go. In that stillness of the recognition. You just are. And that's all there is to it. Just being. Plain being. And that plain being may seemingly be obscured by mental images, stories, problems. Going into the why. Why isn't it better? Why isn't it more pleasurable? Why is it not what I've imagined or expected to be?

And again, another thing to do at this moment. Not that you are the doer and you can do it. But if you resonate again with the message. The recognition will come up. It will just spontaneously come up. Okay. That's a story. That's one of the way it expresses. It's a magnificent way in which it expresses. Of course, unless it's believed. When it is believed. It's not us believing. That's magnificent. It's pretty harmful. It's pretty painful. But it doesn't have to be this way. Any story ever told. If it's seen for what it is. It's just a story. It doesn't harm. So what could be one of the worst stories?

I heard some people saying that the worst thing that can ever happen to you is a thought. It's a story. And of course, Bob says the worst one. After all, I'm only human. Now I am only human. I'm not that vastness of life anymore. I'm only human. I'm making mistakes. And of course, I'm guilty. I'm responsible for my mistakes. I'm contracted. I'm limited. I'm separated. I'm vulnerable. I'm in danger. Yeah. So that's a terrible story. Terrible place to be. But once it's done. But once it is known as just a story happening on the plain screen of awareness. Now I'm conscious of that story of being a person, a human being.

What does it do to the screen? It can't touch it. So as the screen, as the life itself, pretending to be a person, pretending to be a human. But knowing that I'm just acting, I can enjoy the play. I'm pretending to be a person or the woman or the worker or the wife or the mother or whatever. But I know that's not the reality. The reality of what I am is just pure being. It's plain being. So I can put yellow dress or I can put black dress or I can put the wig. And it doesn't touch that what I am. Whatever I'm pretending or playing to be at the moment.

It doesn't touch. So if the story appears on the screen. I'm a woman or I'm inferior. Who cares? The screen doesn't care. The screen doesn't distinguish between pleasurable and a painful story. The screen doesn't prefer day over night or pain over pleasure or the other way around. So. Resting back in that plain awareness of presence. Means resting back in that true nature of being. Plain screen. And from there being aware of the content if that's necessary. That's the way of effortless living. That's the way of living that is so obvious everywhere you look in the nature. Like we were joking with Robin before. About you know all that idea about getting better.

And what Jim was saying about education. Embellishing ourselves. Improving ourselves. Growing. If you look at the flower out there. It doesn't have those ideas. Or the tree. It doesn't want to be different or better. It is what it is. That's its secret. It doesn't argue with reality. It doesn't want to fix the reality. It doesn't think there is anything wrong. With the reality. So without the thinking. There is nothing ever wrong. It is just what it is. And it's quite difficult to show it to someone who is locked in the mind for all their lives. It's quite hard. I was trying with one of my client's friends today.

He believes in things. He believes in Anunnaki and conspiracies and all that. How can you not believe it? And I say. Well you know. They are all great stories. They are wonderful. But they are just thoughts. When you don't think about it. You can't worry about it. Yeah. You are right. But how can you not think about it? I say. No, no. Keep thinking. But just recognize their thoughts. Their thoughts. Don't take thoughts for the reality. No. Not that many people can actually hear it. For one reason or the other. They may or they may not. But you are here now. And you know that you are here.

And you know that you are here. And you know that. You know. You have been pointed it out for so long. For so many times. You know that the thought is the thought. The word is not the thing. You know the way Bob is pointing out. The word water. You can't drink it. The thought about foreign civilization. Or God. Or whatever it is. You can't drink it. You can't. You know. It's intangible. It's just a mental image. So really. About moment to moment of recognizing what's real. The presence. Changeless. Timeless. Spaceless. Awareness of being. The pure existence. The pure screen. And whatever shows up. Comes and goes.

Appears and disappears. Flashes. Flashes of images. Of thoughts. Of smells. Of sounds. Of tastes. They just. Just the ride. That's just how the life entertains itself. This moment has this shape and this content. That's the type of the movie we're watching. That's the entertainment. If it becomes painful. It can be very easily questioned. Recognized as just passing phenomena. And what's changeless. Is always there. Is closer than home. We say we are looking for ourselves. We want to find the way back home. We want to find our true nature. We can't find it. Because it can't be lost. It's always there. It may be obscured by the ideas going on.

On the surface. The little storm on this. On the surface of the ocean. But it's still made of water. Still made of ocean. That. Basic screen can never ever be lost. We cannot. Move away from it. We can distract ourselves. Attention can be sucked up into some other aspects of that. But it's still that. And the truth is when the attention is completely gone, 100% of attention on whatever, driving the car or having sex, that's still that. Who is there to have a problem? Only when part of the attention lands on sustaining the self-centre, this conceptual image made of thoughts, and the other part of attention is there to judge the world as not suitable for that reference point.

Only there, with the artificial split or division, there is a suffering. In the moment when there is no self, there is no suffering. So, the self is an obvious obstacle in a way of the effortless living. So, that self has to be questioned. It can't be found. You can't find it because it's a phantom. It doesn't exist. Looking for that self is an act of inquiry. But finding of that self is impossible because it isn't real. So, we can find, we can get as close as we can to the self, but we can't find it. We can't find the bundle of thoughts that we consider to be ourselves.

I'm a woman. Really? How do I know that? Of course I was told. That was the information I was given. So, is it really who I am? And people change sex today. And the body is constantly changing. And the body is completely relying on the environment. It's completely connected moment-to-moment is exchanging the fluids, and air, and air and air. And when there are those conflicts, it's not a matter of time, it's about time when the process becomes a reality, and matter with the environment. So even anything that I could come up as a concept and put on myself as me can be very easily seen through and questioned.

The easiest way to actually see through it is put it to the test. See if you really doubt, if you don't think. What are you if you don't think about it? Who are you when you don't think about it? Who are you without mental concepts, mental images? And then you will see that you are, because you are, you always are. There is existence. But what you are without the thought, it can only be tasted, it can only be experienced. It cannot be told or taught. Nobody can tell anyone else what they are, who they are. So, I'm going to show you how to do it.

Even about ourselves, even about myself, I can't tell myself. I can't tell you who you are. I can't tell myself who I am or what I am. So I only know that I am. And I can't deny it. So this is the basic truth and this is the basic screen and this is the base, the only certain thing in the whole world that is worthy of looking at, because everything else is Maya. It's illusion. It's transient. It's changing. It's unreal. So back to the reality, the awareness of presence. Here we are. Any questions, arguments? Or you want to add anything to it? You're mentioning fear somewhere in this building.

Yeah, the daughter, the lady from Germany, she mentioned it. Yeah. Yeah. There's an old story in the Arabian Rites about this merchant going down the street and he meets up with the thing called the plague. I say, oh, the plague, how are you going? He says, pretty good. I say where are you going? She says, well, I'm off to Baghdad. What are you going to do? He says, I'm going to kill 5,000. OK, he says. Going along and a couple of weeks later down to town again, and he meets up with the plague again. I play, how are you going? He says, pretty good. He says, listen, you told me you were going to Baghdad to kill 5,000, but you killed 15,000.

He said, no I didn't. I killed 5,000. Fear killed the rest. It means we get this concept of fear and see how we beat ourselves up. When we label a sensation fear or anger, we allow ourselves, how do you know it's fear? Fear or anger, because you've experienced before and you felt all these things and people are talking about fear and you believe this is what's going on here. Another one is anger, when you see the change in your functioning, you feel a feeling comes up with it and you realise, somebody else says, why are you angry? And you realise this one's anger. We've labelled all these sensations, taken them to be real.

And every time this same sensation comes up, we go back to the one that represents the fear or the anger or the depression or the sadness. We load ourselves down with all the past. That depression we had or fear we had some weeks ago or whenever it was has disappeared. And it's gone until it's regurgitated again with the thoughts. When the sensation comes up, instead of seeing the sensation as fresh and new, look at it with curiosity. As though you're seeing it for the first time. It's another fresh and new experiencing that's happening right now. Which if you looked at it without the un-labelled, which we do before we even question it.

This one's fear, this one's anger. We label it down with the past events, conditioning and experience we've taken on board. But it's no longer as it is. That's another thing we've spoken about. As is. As is when you look into it as unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. We're not trying to change it in any way, shape or form. Leave everything as it is. And what happens to it? Because the manifestation is transient, the essence it appears on is the reality. That doesn't change. But the manifestation is constantly changing. And you'll know you've had these sensations before and they've gone. And they've come back again. So... Instead of getting caught up with these things, we leave them just as it is.

No preference, no partiality, no comparison. Not trying to change it, alter it or modify it in any way at all. And again, ask yourself what are all yesterday's thoughts now? And you'll realise they were gone. The thoughts from the week before, the day before, the hour before, whatever. They've all changed. This one we fixate on. Fear, anger, depression, oh. And challenges and try to get rid of it. Fight with it. Resist it. Get in conflict with it. And you've got no chance to move on. And it hangs around for days, maybe weeks, sometimes for years. People go back and tell me what happened to me when I was a child and blah, blah, blah.

Who cares? Who cares? What is affected by that? Only the conceptual image I've got about myself. It's as dead as a stone. As dead as a doornail. What happened to me when I was a child? I haven't got the same body. Any scars or sores or things that I had are healed. Or been replaced by false hips or something like that. But the body has changed. But my conceptual image I've got about myself, I'm saying I and me here, referring to this believed in separate entity. And we're seeing and hearing and experiencing. And experiencing, as Kat said. When you label the seeing, it's all mental.

But if you're not labelling it with a mental concept, have you stopped seeing? Realise everyone in this room is seeing right now. And you're not even referring to the seeing if you're listening to me. You might say, it's full of shit and I'm not listening to you. But it hasn't stopped the seeing. Look around the room without the labelling. You're not allowed to do that. If I look around the room without labelling anything, I know what it is. It's not a mental seeing. We're seeing no thing yet that is a seeing. It's the pure intelligence that you are. That is this universal intelligence that's seeing.

When you say I see, you're referring to a mental seeing. It's never a mental seeing. Never a me seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, or something. Until we label it and take the focus off the pure intelligence energy, which is all this manifestation is. Put a concept on it, we meet ourselves up with the word and the concept. Ideas or images. That's all involved in it. Ideas, images, thoughts, feelings, emotions. And the Sargadatta tells you nothing can trouble you except in your own imagination. What you are imaging in. What mental images are being created there by the belief that there is a me. A mental. In the pure intelligence there's a knowing, cognising, recognising.

You're not seeing an homogenous blob of that. There are nine patterns of energy in this room right now. As well as the insentient things like the chairs, the carpet, the things like that. They're all energy also. That's insentient. The sentience or life that's expressing through each and every one of you is the same life that's rolling the earth around the sun. Causing the seasons to come and go. Patterning, shaping, forming all the galaxies around there. Exploding, forming them, imploding them, breaking them down. Everything, so-called thing in this manifestation, is a functioning of that pure intelligence energy. And if we grasp that point, instead of starting from the point that I'm an individual, I'm a person, I'm a separate entity.

Have a look at that. Compare that to the universe, to the cosmos. You'd be less than a grain of sand. You're small enough now if you get up in a plane from 30,000 feet and look down, you can't even see what the people walking around are. Less than ants. But if you compare it to the cosmos, you're less than a grain of sand. See the arrogance and the ego of everything. I'm going to change the world. I'm going to make things right. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And try as hard as I might or I will. I believe I've got some willpower.

I as the person, as the separate entity, as the thought up coi... What is it? I don't know where my mind goes. Entity. Thought up entity. Yeah, thought up entity or... Individual. Yeah. Can do anything at all of its own personal volition. It's a fiction, you can't. You can't do it yet. Everything is happening there. Your breathing, your heart beating, hearing fingernails grow. Thoughts are coming up, feelings, emotions. Everything is going up. But we've made the mistake. We just know it's one self. There's only the one we made the self meaning and it's my self. It's me. My self. We refer to the me or the mind referring to this conceptual image we've got.

What are you? Are you an image? And all these other things you're seeing in this room are images? Are you them? You know you're not the other images that are in this room. Maybe you're not the image you believe yourself to be. And without that imagining and believing you are an individual or person, again, drop it right now. Don't even think about it. You're not the image you believe yourself to be. You're not the image you believe yourself to be. You're not the image you believe yourself to be. You're not the image you believe yourself to be. And that focus onto what is happening, that breathing is still going on, the heart beating.

You can sense the heart expanding and contracting, and you know that foods are being digested there, cells are being replaced and you don't have to think or relate it to me doing any of it. Pain in the body. Sensations. You're relating them to me, they're going to suffer from it. between pain and suffering. Pain is intelligence letting you know that all is not well with the body. Do something about it. If you're sitting on a pin, you move off it. If you put your hand on the hot stove, the pain will tell you don't go there. Physical pains and mental pains, we have the same thing.

We can lock into them for a while. But after a while, that psychological suffering that went on grew and grew and grew to knots in the guts and the heart and the lungs and the throat. All sort of imagined concepts and ideas, bringing the concept of time into it. This is going to go on forever. And I might die next week or something like that. Or it went on all that previous time way back to when I was a little child. Is that the reality anymore? Or is it only this? Not what's coming out of its mouth, but this essence, which is the same essence.

This is which everything in this room is formed out of that emptiness. And the emptiness is still, the form is still nothing but the emptiness. So the patterns, shapes, and forms and expressions need to go on. Otherwise, it'll be very still, very silent, no beginning, no ending, nothing going on whatsoever. And we've got this world here. This is it. This is it. Cosmos, this manifestation. And thoughts, mind, can be utilized. The energy intelligence coming through them can be utilized. And we can do things today we couldn't do 20 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 1,000 years ago. So it's a very useful thing, the way it's patterning, shaping, forming.

But we still go on with all the psychological suffering. The fear, the anger, the despair, the guilt, the metals, the problems. We have the depressions, sadness, mental illnesses, all these things go on because we're putting the energy of belief into the idea there's a separate entity. Question it. Have a look. And see if you can find anything static in there that you can say, this is what I am. This is where I begin. It might appear to be there and appear to be silent. But when you investigate and really have a look, and really look into it, you'll see there's nothing near at all. And when people like this are going to say, have the courage to be as nothing, as no thing, and see the world as it is, no thing, then that spontaneous functioning or living will be going on.

The livingness will be from that point. Again, get into it. There is no seeming body in this room who is not that. And then you might understand that word, that, better, When it says, I am that, that is a chair, that is a carpet. When you open your mouth and realise it's that that's speaking through and as, that pattern you're calling it. Couldn't be anything else. Come on, at nine o'clock, everybody will want to speak. Time is a fiction. Thank you. You just couldn't talk before? Pardon? When you were talking, this happens almost every time I'm hanging to it, like my vision goes in and out.

It got so goofy. Just before when you were talking, it just felt like I was getting very small and the room was getting bigger. It was kind of pulsing backwards and forwards. My heart started going and full body stuff. But that was quite intense. I think time has heard and recognised. It's always stabilising. Yeah. Remember, we put these, the time we first started reading about the... We've learned all these words and believed in them. And we've been reinforcing that every day from then on. We've read parents, schools, society, everybody around us reinforced it because 99.9% of the world had come from that point. And we continue to reinforce it ourselves.

I had a dream a while back, which is quite funny. I don't know how much relevance it has, but where I was in a cafe and this guy walked up to me in my dream. And said, I'm going to do this. And he said, I'm going to do this. And I said, I'm going to do this. And he said, I'm going to do this. And he said, do you want to know how I became enlightened? And I was like, sure. Why don't you tell me? And he goes, a guy walked up to me in a cafe and said... And then he stopped talking. And he just looked at me.

And I was like, yes, and? And he just kept looking at me. And I was like, yes. And I was getting frustrated. And he just smiled at me the whole time. And then all of a sudden everything went white. And I woke up and I was like, that's sneaky. Because it was nothing. Nothing that could be said. That's what I got from it. Like, a guy walked up to me and said... He was referencing the actual moment of that experience. Yes. It was just strange. And I was like, that's interesting. But I think a lot of the times things are kind of... The word I'm looking for...

Understood in dreams that maybe are a bit harder to grasp. In this dream, I guess. Because I know that lately I'm always a vivid dreamer. But lately it's been like over and over and over. And I woke up the other night from a dream where I was told in a dream that things are actually recognised in dream. And then in this dream they kind of get filtered down spontaneously. But they're actually processed there. And I woke up going... I want it to be true. And it was just this strange recognition of... Okay, stuff's happening I don't know about. For this reality. For me. That I don't know about.

Yeah. All the time. Yeah. But it was strange. Even digestion. You don't really know about it. And it's still happening. But even that processing. You know what I mean? That subconscious processing is happening outside of these conversations. Without my mind trying to think about it and process it. Because nothing can be done there. And it's like... Yeah. Did you create any of that dream? No. Obviously not. Oh, there you go. It's happening. It's appearing. Yeah. Seemingly real. And the words were spoken. Resonating. And that's what you say. That certain processing is going on without you consciously acknowledging it. Yeah, you can just relax and trust life.

Completely trust life. Because what? What else can you do? It's when Bob was saying that the only thing you can do is a very, very good advice. To leave things unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Why? Because you are not the doer. Why? Because the I that wants to do something about anything. Understand, grasp, process. Anything. It's a fiction. So to say to the non-doer to not do is a brilliant thing. Because it doesn't really communicate anything by the fact that you can't do anything. You can't alter, modify or correct things anyway. Because you have no power as an individual. But with that comes the understanding that, ah, yeah, right.

I can just relax. I can just watch the show. Things are going on. Yeah. Life is taking me. As Bob says, you didn't manufacture the dream. There are things that were processed in the dream. There is this fruit is ripening and intellectually following this process is not only stupid. It's important. It's important. It's possible. So you can just totally let go and trust life because it has you. It brought you where you are and it constantly shows up. You know, it gives you that glimpses. It gives you that moments even in the vivid dreams when. Yes. So that's that's beautiful. It's just it just shows you how little you have to do about your own awakening.

Just what the guy told you in the dream. Smile. That's all you can do. Yeah. Because I start to think about it in the last couple of weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just trying to caught up in one labeling it. And to even trying in my thoughts. No. Try to not try. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a paradox of trying to not try. Maggie said everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind. Yeah. Why exchange the unborn for thought? So again, point it out. You're not going to work it out in the mind, it's the unborn mind.

Nature resolves itself. We exchange it for thought and think we're going to work it out with our thought. Something here, and the cats are... Cats usually hunt those creatures. Yeah, arse was good for getting rid of any flies in the house. They're afraid of Tony, they sneak out upstairs. Yeah, so relaxing to what is and leaving things unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. That's a brilliant, brilliant way of just living naturally. Just seeing what unfolds moment to moment without any intervention. And of course, it doesn't mean to refrain from actions. Because not being a doer doesn't mean that we can stop doing either. There's no place for any sort of a volition.

It's just... Just watching things unfold. I think the hardest thing I have is with the labour when the physical thing happens. Like you were talking about fear and all that sort of stuff. So even when you were talking earlier in my heart, I felt like the racing start and got to my throat. It's very difficult not to jump to an emotional story about the physicality of it. I had the same things going on. Did you? Yeah. And it's like what I once would have called, oh, that's anxiety. And then you start, as you say, you start loading that sensation up with all that. Yeah, it gets loaded and it gets muddied.

Like even what's happening gets a little muddied by the... Because it's like, it's so instant. Like it's, bam, the emotion happens from the sensation. And then trying... The trying not to try. So then they're trying to, you know, like, oh, don't try and not be carried away. Like that. Yeah, just notice. Just notice. If the carrying away happens, that's what happens. Yeah. Leave that out of the vision. Yeah, leave that out of this. There's a fly part now. Yeah, something there. Everyone should say one thing. You should go around the room. Silence is gold. Speaking of stories, I had to write this down because it came up.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. Why didn't you write this down? Because it came to me the other week. And it's only now that I'm truly, probably appreciating it for what it was because I'll call it my first major taste of the bliss of non-being we'll call it tonight. And so, I was about 18 or 19 years old and severely, severely depressed, like constantly thinking about suicide. I was crying myself to sleep every night. And sometime in the few years prior, I must have just picked up an interest in Buddhism.

I don't know why, just that natural being drawn to, because I've always, I guess, been drawn to that search for a deeper meaning about what's this all about. And of course, I wasn't practicing meditation or anything. And it was funny because looking back now, I had a very gross misunderstanding of the First Noble Truth. Because as I cry myself to sleep every night, I'd be like, life is suffering, life is suffering, almost like a mantra I'd repeat to myself. Not really noticing that suffering is in life, it's not. Life itself is not actually suffering. Mine felt like it was at the time, though. So this went on and on for months, and then one night, things happened, and it was the last little thread that was hollowing me out.

And it's like, that's it. Went and locked myself in the bathroom. I'm going to kill myself. That was it. It was just... A pure knowing of that fact. There was just no more ifs or buts about it. So I was just kind of sitting there, wondering how I was going to kill myself. I was just like, no, I can't slip my wrist in the bathtub. I don't want my mum to see me like that and have that horrible image burned into a mine for the rest of her life. So being the good son I am, good, thoughtful son, we lived near lakes. I'll go drown myself there instead.

And then out of nowhere, all of a sudden, the urge to meditate just hit me. And as I said, I'd never really practiced before, and it's just like, why not? I'm just going to go kill myself anyway. It wasn't like any kind of delay tactic or anything like that, because that was, as I said, it was a knowing that hit me. And it's just like, okay, that's it. I'm going to off myself now. So I sat down in the bathroom floor. I'm going to meditate, and something really kind of amazing started to happen. And it's because as a dead man, I suddenly had no future.

With no future, I suddenly had no past. And so all there was was just complete, pure presence. So my life had been just torture for so long, and all of a sudden, there was just this most perfect peace and stillness and presence. Suddenly out of that presence came this I don't even know how you what you would say it was kind of like the voice of the presence in a way just this pure knowing that just came to me and Was put in the words it basically said like no you can't kill yourself your life is meant for more than this That was it I'd love to say that the depression and everything magically vanished and everything was all lovely Uh everything like that evermore, but the whole the depths of it disappeared from that night afterwards That all went so kind of funny that um Remembering and appreciating this is what I was referring to the other week when I was reading about Bob's story and His search being fueled by what gave him a second chance so to me that was what gave me my second chance and Just that pure presence and that led to that full reconnection with the presence and Yeah, really didn't come to appreciate that for what it was So you think after that I would have been oh sweet meditation is awesome.

I'll do that every day Yeah, one of those funny things Yeah, it gives you a taste and it keeps you alive Yeah Yeah, and we all know it throughout life I mean I used to have taste like as a child really I mean my childhood was absolute horrific horrific It was just one line of Unthinkable anxiety and inadequacy and never knowing where I am where I should be and always feeling that I'm lost and everybody has worked it out and I haven't and I couldn't see I had this crossed eyes like this I couldn't see either absolute drama and why the sort of suicide didn't cross my mind.

I don't know I I don't know, but it was for years and years and years. It was easing up as I was growing up. But throughout all that unthinkable suffering, there were moments, there were moments of absolute stillness. There were moments when it would just, just as you said, suddenly the whole turmoil and the whole drama and the whole fear would just vanish. And suddenly everything would come beautiful and alive. And it was like a sparkle coming through and complete annihilation of any sort of separation. I didn't have words, like how a seven-year-old or five-year-old can have words for this. But that was something that I learned to actually wait for or look for.

And it was something that as I was growing up, I equated it with beauty. And I started hunting beauty and actually defined my personality. I started going to clients. I'm the top of the mountains because of the beauty. Look at the night sky because of the beauty. Hoping that that moment of beauty will give me that disappearance of the self. And it very often did. And I became a junkie of beauty. But of course, that wasn't the answer because beauty is some sort of a trick. It's some sort of a trick that gives you a sense of false and temporary sense of pleasure. But that was all I knew at that time.

But that's a good place to start. That's your little taste. Just like your little taste when the suicidal depression just switches over. The neuroscience explains it as one of the amygdalas gets so packed with that whatever it is that it overflows to the other. And one is responsible for depression and misery, another one for bliss. And that's quite why probably on the chemical side, it's not the same. It's not the same on the biochemical level. It often happens that experience of awakening is following the experience of suicidal misery. Suffering has always been my sadhana, that's for sure. Never been much for formal practice, but suffering has really always accelerated everything quite a lot.

And it was interesting after a lot of that kind of things, awakenings and all that, and a lot of the junk got cleared out. Then that's kind of where... Everything leveled out for quite a number of years because I didn't have that great motivator that was suffering anymore. So it's interesting coming back now and coming back to it and everything starting to open up again. Yeah, and it's funny because I always kind of tended to believe that suffering is not really necessary. I mean, you can actually investigate without going through suicidal depression and without going through all that mental trauma. You can just see through and they are some.

I don't know who they are, but they are some. Today, I don't have any concepts around that. I know that this infinite intelligence is absolutely unlimited in the way it expresses. So perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. Who cares? The stories about what's necessary or what's required or what's the prerequisite, or even what's the... chemical component of it. It's just a story, really. But every one of us has these moments. Even the fact that we are seeking something bigger or something more, something deeper than that surface level, sort of a conceptual level of labeling and understanding the reality, means there is something that we know and remember.

And I used to relate to this sort of a longing for that moment of absolute peace and joining, connection, the union. And how, why would I even long for it? Because there was innate knowing of that reality. And that knowing of the heart was what was perpetuating the search. And of course, that's a round way because, you know, I left home and went to my head and lived in the conceptual reality, imagined and interpreted and made meaning, like Tony says. Meaning, made meaning, you know, I'm inadequate, I'm stupid. This is... Everybody has worked it out. I'm lost. I don't know. You know, that reality. And now, finding the way back home to the non-conceptual awareness, to the awareness in which there is no interpretation, no meaning added to anything.

And without that meaning, without that labels, there is no turmoil. Because turmoil is always in comparison to something else. And the act of comparing is a mental activity. Getting off the mind, there is nothing to compare. This moment is fresh, it's new. So it is perfect as it is. If I don't relate it to any past moments, future moments, taste from the past or expectations, anticipations of how it should be or would be, there is nothing wrong. But the whole search is a beautiful adventure, especially when it's over. When it goes on, it doesn't really feel this way. It feels like suffering, doesn't it? Oh well, it has its highlights, but mostly it is a sense of lack.

It is a sense of, I'm not there yet. There is still something to be seen and understood, and as I am right now, that's not it. So that's painful. I was going to ask you, Cam, because I resonate a lot with your story. I had a bad night with my dad a couple of weeks ago. And I suppose if I'm very honest, the thing that I was really seeking, and am seeking in this journey, is the end of my suffering. That's really what got me on board, because I see it very clearly. Like that money won't do it, sex doesn't do it, status doesn't do it, even relationships don't do it.

And I kind of was like, I felt like I had run through a lot of these things. Like achievement doesn't do it, and I felt like I had run through a lot of these things, but was still fundamentally feeling like empty or unfulfilled, or like it was always like a sugar high, and never lasted. Like never led to lasting fulfillment. And so I thought, well, and I thought this is like the last thing, or the only thing that could be is like, well, surely if I find God, surely that would be lasting fulfillment. Surely God isn't one of those things that comes and goes, or is like a sugar high.

But I have this fear that, because I talked to, Bob a lot, and my dad a lot, and I have this fear that we talk about like non-conceptual awareness, and you are already that, and things like that. And that it's very simple, like it's not a complicated truth, it's a very simple truth, and is not difficult to understand. It's not even something that can be understood as such. But I have this fear that, if I, that I will see it, the right word, that I will see it, but the suffering will continue. Like, and that it won't be. Like I have this dream of like, of finding Nirvana and being like, and never ever suffering again, and being like, oh, like God rescued me, and like, you know, being eternally like grateful, and you know, and so on.

And I suppose I'm afraid that, I don't like, like it doesn't sit well when it's said like, when you talk about it being so simple, and it's very like, you know, you are already that, and things like that. It's a little bit like, well, what am I doing? Like what, like what am I seeking? And like it, it's like, I feel like it's incredibly paradoxical, like that, like you are it, but you're not aware that you're it. Like, and, and, yeah, and you say, you know, like desire, but don't desire not to desire, and like all that, and so, I get lost, and, and I, I fear that the answer that I will find won't lead to the end of my suffering.

It may only lead to the end of you. Well, that also, I'd be happy with that. I wouldn't. I would, I'd be happy with that. But, But if there is no you, who will be there to suffer? I suppose I can't, I can't deny that there is suffering. And if I look for the suffering, I cannot find it. Where's it all taking place in? Where? In the body. Yeah, where's the body? Isn't it all taking place in time? If you didn't have the concept of time, where's the point you're gonna suffer from? Where does suffering begin, and where does it end without time? Now, it's only in the scriptures, in the Bible, especially.

A thousand years in thy sight is like yesterday when it has passed, or is a watch in the night. I mean, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know, I don't know, there's a watch in the night. Boom, it's gone like that. Take the concept of time, what are you gonna suffer in? What room are you gonna suffer in? I suppose it's what you said, what you're saying, because it's believed in day after day after day. Yes, reinforced that. For a long time. Exactly. It's a little bit like, as you said that, it dropped away, and I went, oh yeah, of course.

And then, it's like what you said when the Saga Dada said to you, you're not the body or the mind. You went, I'm the body. I'm the mind. I'm the body. I'm the mind. I'm the mind. I'm the mind. You said, no, I saw it. You said, but then got caught in it again. It's like, I just have this horrible fear that like, it will always be this like, seeing it, losing it, and seeing it, and losing it, and so on. But had you lost it, and when you see it once, and your intelligent will say, listen, I saw it through this the other day, what do I carry on with the story again?

You go back and have a look and see where it is again. If you can find it. Would it be fair for me to say that it's more difficult to see it in some times than others? Yes, that is the thing. Yeah, that's very good. It's more clouds in the sky sometimes than what there is on a dull day. But do you say the sun's left the sky? You've seen the sun, you've recognised the sun and you know the sun never leaves the sky. There might be days you go out there and you won't see it. Do you say I've lost it? I feel like you might as well have though.

Well test it out. As I say, keep testing it out and see. Go there where you fear to go. And you might get a shock, you know. If I'm actually going into it, it dissipates. Like actually going the other way. Inviting it in and things like that. No, the sun hasn't left the sky, but... One day might be darker than the next day. But then there'll be another day when there's no cloud in the sky. And you're not going to get it every day either. There'll be long periods of time when the sun's very warm. And cosy and all the rest of it. No sun in the sky.

You're not going to be so disturbed when the clouds do seem to come up again. Your intelligence has said I've seen through this. It's not the be all and end all. It's going to move. It's going to change. What's making the change? Stop time. Investigate time. Is there such a thing? It's spontaneous. Every moment is spontaneous. Now it's happening. It's already ending. And beginning again. And ending again. No really stopping or starting on it. It's spontaneous. When you recognise it, what point are you going to fixate on? There'd be no reference. Is it true that it seems to be like a continuous investigation until there's no need to investigate?

Once you see it, and you might... the clouds come, and then you look again and you see that it's just clouds. Like, does one just continue to investigate and continue until... Where's the static point that there is a one that's investigating? Well, an investigation has taken place. Right. And then that's constantly changing. Transient. But what it's all appearing on doesn't change. And just saying the change and knowing the change is going on instead of believing that the change is real. That static background that wasn't appearing on, could you notice the change even? Or notice the time? You have to get your own understanding on it.

I can only point toward it, you know. Yeah, you're right. It only, like... You might express it differently to what I was spreading out. No, I understand what you're saying. Because you're right. It is only in relation to its opposite. Its opposite. And you can only have that in time. Because I've experienced one before than this one. Yeah, it's like the complete opposite of what you do throughout your life. I understand. Also, that fear, it may be quite irrelevant, but if you see that fear of losing it, that you see true and you will keep losing it, and you will have to investigate forever, and ever, and ever, until it's stabilized.

If you actually see that... Is that true? That's a thought. Right. That's what I'm trying to say. Just see it as a thought. Because if you believe it, that's fucking overwhelming. That's horrible. That's something really, really... You load yourself down with that. And is that true or isn't it true? Well, who knows? Who knows how it is going to be? But if you see it as a fear, just a thought, just another thought, and then see how long it lasts. The truth is you don't know. You have no idea. It's just this moment. And in this moment, how aware you are of the stillness and the content.

What is going to happen in next month or next year or next ten years or whatever, we don't know. Nobody knows. So it's not really even worthy of investing attention into trying to figure it out. You label it, and you say, I'm afraid that it's going to be like this. Maybe yes, maybe not. But you don't know. So don't worry about it. Just see it as a thought. This is a fear, and it's heavy. It will bring you down. It's something that really... Can you see how heavy it is? Can you feel how heavy it is? Oh my gosh, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare to have.

Like, yeah, even if I see through because it's so simple, it's going to haunt me forever. I will still lose it. It's horrible. But that's not the reality. That's a thought. That's a mental image. That's the imagination. That's a fear. It's whatever you think about future. It's not the truth. It's projection. It's imagination. It's never ever going to be true. Unless you fully believe it and look for the evidence, and you prove it to yourself. Just like you believe in angels and you see them on every corner. Or you believe in placebo and you cure yourself of cancer. But the truth is, you don't know.

It's future. It's not here now. The more you invest in that nightmare, the more you reinforce conceptually living this moment. This moment is not too bad, is it? Right now? Yeah. So that's the reality. And if in some future time it may get more, or the suffering may come back, or the sufferer may persist, who knows? Who cares? Really. It's a rude thing to say, who cares? Because obviously, you know, that's very personal and very close to your heart. And of course, nobody wants to suffer. You don't even want your enemies to suffer, probably. So the who cares sounds rude. But if you understand that this image that is preoccupied with the future is not the reality, it's just a passing phenomenon, it's just the content.

That you who wants to see through and that you who wants to be free from suffering is a different you. You know, this image is constantly changing. Like the you who is in the relation with your girlfriend is a different you than the tennis coach or actor. They're all different sort of images. None of that is true. So the one who is preoccupied with finding the truth, is just another version of the image. Because who you truly are is aware of all that versions of self. Of the self being the body, self being a man, self being an actor, or being a boyfriend, or being a son or whoever.

You are the awareness of it all. So now the future in which that self, that seems solid and the same every time, is the one who is the one who is the one who is the one who is the one. And the one who is the one who is the one who is the one who is going to suffer is just a story. Not only that self, that self image is not solid. Your self image was different ten years ago or twenty years ago. When you were two year old or five year old. Your self image was different. And it is going to be different next year or maybe next minute.

It's constantly changing. See how your self image changes when you get up depressed and when you, When you full of energy and you and you succeeding the self image is completely different at least this was my experience I had moments when I was fine, you know, I was just average, you know average everything and then I had moments where I was absolutely hopeless and disgrace So even the image that image that wants to find something is constantly changing. It's not who you are You are the awareness of all that versions of self and one of those versions Wants the career another one may want the awakening another one may want, you know, they all kind of taught Forms that have different desires of different dreams But you are the awareness of all that mental processes and that and that selves If you see that in this moment You can always go back to being the that invisible transparent basic screen Then and there is max showing up on that screen the one who is anxious that even if he sees through and he can't he Can't see through because he's an image and but even if that, you know on the screen there is an image thinking about seeing through and forever being bound to suffer that is also the content that is also the movie and if you believe in It I assure you you will find the evidence and you will see people who saw through it and still suffer I know few they believe they saw through it and they still suffer But you don't want to find the evidence like this.

You want to be backing off into that screen and Just recognizing what is present and what is imaginary? That nightmare is it's a nightmare. It's not the reality It's not what is gonna happen There is no future really. It's just this moment Can you see this is unconceivable for the mind but really this is hundred percent truth? There is no future. There is no future It's unconceivable if you listen to it with the mind Bullshit that there is future. Of course, everyone gets old, you know, Terry was young was your age now look at him He's your dad and yeah, it doesn't make sense But in the experiencing in the experiencing there is only this moment Future is only the story in the head So that nightmare about being sucked back into the clouds and not being able to see it and still suffering That nightmare is just an imaginary imagination And you are the screen.

Yes, you know, there may be a pain or there may be a suffering happening but the moment you recognize your Self as life a space for this suffering that's not yours anymore The body may be in pain, but that's not your pain You are the space in which the body is experiencing pain doesn't mean that this pain isn't experienced is fully experienced Everything is fully experienced But suffering comes from resisting what is not from holding space for what is So there is a freedom from suffering possible in the moment not in time In time that okay now I'm free from suffering or Bob is free from suffering and he will never ever experience anything in the future That's conceptual.

That's dream. There is no future. He can only experience or not experience the experiencing right now Yeah, that's Mmm, it makes it easier really I was hoping to find it Yeah, and everyone always wants to find you know Because the mind the minds that is so fearful of the future it wants security forever In time the time is mind Without the mind there is no time. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah, it's my name. No, just say that was good very good In fact, all of this has been very useful I think it's been good Hmm Yeah, I love Bob's ultimate. I I find it an ultimate because he doesn't order people any prescriptions or any practices or any Yeah, I love Bob's ultimate.

I I find it an ultimate because he doesn't order people any prescriptions or any practices or any Things to to actually follow But yeah, I like to be a little bit devil's advocate follow the practice of leaving things unaltered unmodified Uncorrected follow the practice of not being a doer because you are not so if as the non-doer you refuse the doing then you actually land in your true nature but I don't mean refuse the doing because even refusal is not in your hands but just basically how you say it don't take any stance for or against you say it I can't think of it okay sorry yeah yeah it's just just yeah letting everything be unfolding always taking that one step back if there is any action spontaneously happening you're the one who knows about it not the one who is engaging in it but knowing about it the awareness of it and if there is no if the whole attention hundred percent goes into the action there is not not a problem because there is no separation between like the whole hundred percent of life essence at that moment and bodies the action so there is no suffering in it because there is no sufferer the sufferer comes only when part of the attention is taken out and is forming that conceptual image and relating and translating and and making meaning of everything relative to the image and this process this mental process there is an invitation to actually step step back and be aware of that relating of that that is kind of it feels almost I heard people saying that is almost this associating which kind of feels cold like you imagine yourself like a third person watching no this is not about imagining this is not about the NLP type of disassociation where you kind of get called on the world this is about waking up from being trapped in the in the in this jacket of the of being an entity to recognizing the play and the actors and again not always available but with tuning into that sort of a frequency it comes up more and more and more it just spontaneously comes up it's the like this associating not really it's just a like this associating not really even like the question what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it or leaving things unaltered unmodified uncorrected it brings about a new pattern in the in the functioning the pattern of recognition of really seeing thoughts for what they are it's almost as if it is just another muscle that has to be trained in a way I mean again because that intelligence and the ways it expresses is infinite and is no impossible things in many many cases it happens progressively in other cases it happens as a volcano exploding or it happens or whatever but those are just stories there is only one moment at the time there's only one moment this moment where that movement of comparison a movement of relating to can or cannot be seen so it's not really about worrying about being vigilant for the rest of your life no it's just this moment just right now and the more of this moment right now the more that muscle of staying present of being awake to this moment awake to this dream gets reinforced and and then it gets I mean it is already easy because it's only this moment.

I mean there's suffering that's... I walk down the street and someone shits me. I'm like, you know, in that moment it's pretty appropriate that there's pain and stuff. But I think like even though I haven't seen clearly through everything yet, I mean I think the difference with the suffering that gets struck is that perpetuated... You know, like I might have a horrible moment and then I go on for like the next week recounting this horrible moment that fucks everything for like a week. And my whole life I feel I've lived like that. You know, like I said about having the conversations in my head about things, like I'm always defending myself in these pretend conversations that are going to happen in the future and things like that.

But like, I mean of course like suffering can happen I guess but not... Most things. Yeah. It's more situational and not like imaginary. Suffering is to the mind what pain is to the body. Beautiful way to say it. Yeah. And the mind can go on forever because time exists in the mind. So it just keeps going and going and going and jumping from next thought to next thought like a lily pad and a bullfrog I guess. Whereas, you know, I've had moments of extreme pain before which have... Like I had gallstones. Oh, shit. Which I had like acute attacks for a while and they were like, wow.

Like I can understand why people can't handle acute pain. Which you can't escape in the moment. Like that's just there. But as soon as that dropped I was like, ah. Like once it wasn't happening, actually happening in that moment it was like... And that's I think what I'm trying to get to. Well not... You know what I mean. I don't want to get lost in language because my language is going to be completely incorrect. But like I... Like I didn't have any preconceived notions of wanting to stop suffering because like I said, this kind of just bit me in the face. It wasn't like something I was like...

I've always suffered. But I was never like... I just thought that was how it is. I never really wanted to seek out anything to end suffering. Wow. But yeah. But at the same time that you would have answered that. I was because like... Because the mind is always searching for happiness and what things... I always thought that good relationship would make... There is always... There is always a good relationship. And that's what I wanted was a good relationship. You know, I had abandonment problems. I feel like everyone's been horrible to me. Bad parents. You know like broken family. Just horrible, horrible stuff. How important is all of that right now?

No, it's not. And this is the point I'm trying to make because I thought he... I thought this would be the missing... The missing piece. The missing puzzle piece. Like a good relationship. And we've been together for almost eight years now. And there's nothing wrong at all. And yet I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. And I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. I'm still unhappy. Why? Are you fucking serious? Like, why are you still unhappy?

And that's what we wanted. Sort of what Max is saying is, that doesn't work, that doesn't do it. Yeah. Like why. But love doesn't do it. And then you start feeling like a real piece of shit. You start to find it mysterious. And then that... Why were you willing to say that? Because why are you unhappy? Because everything you say, everything you think, and everything you do, is for yourself, and there isn't one. There isn't one. yeah and like even the other other day I was like um okay omnipresent yeah omnipresent everywhere I was like alright show yourself where are you then you must be here like we said in everything and I'm like why still can I so bad have so slight in it you know what I mean I'm like alright I know it's so stupid I know everyone who's like how did that it's too obvious I've had I've had the scene but hasn't been so busy that makes sense I have this little bit we've talked about the little things younger girl and thinking but that's not a complete knowledge and understanding I've had a moment of complete knowledge and understanding not sober quite an amazing like whoa everything's fine a couple of foot wasn't so far I was quite offered the very happen so that' sober scene is the thing I want todos Digital chyba que se dr tighten comidas the knowing not the experience so much but like that knowing that absolute without of la bestia I thought strongly, la bumps in the face, sin eh from econtinuそ died with a doubt rock-solid yes I've seen that I love to accept through it great with the group' do you know that you are do you know the you are how certain you are ju tal como si Ahora le digo creo que soy вам goes like a few clothes gift card is going closer I'm at some point about them like Are you not 100% sure of your own existence?

Do you have any doubts that you exist? Do you think that you could possibly not exist? Can you try not to exist? The only thing I can't negate is my existence. That's right. 100% certainty. You see it fully, 100% right now. The idea that there is something more to see, that's the problem. Yeah. That's why I was like, right. Or more to do. Now, now, now. Remember how you spoke to the questioner? Now, and that's it. Even before all this come about, I had like a foreshadowing dream. We were talking about dreams earlier. This is totally random, but I had a dream before this first kind of like, whoa, what's this all about come up?

And it was a dream. I was in a doctor's office. There was a guy talking to a doctor and there was me and another guy. And they weren't talking to us, the doctor and the patient, but all of a sudden, I realized that we didn't exist. Me and this other guy. And that he was about to take medication and we were going to disappear. So I jumped that I was this guy's figment of his imagination and the other figment of the imagination started crying. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? And he goes, I don't understand. I'm like, don't you get it? You don't exist.

And he was like, but I have a family. And I'm like, they're not real. I'm like, you don't exist. And I was getting agitated with him. I'm like, how do you not see that you don't exist? And I woke up and told Carl and Carl kind of understood what was on this journey. Years ago, two years ago before any of this come up. But this will be interesting because she's often had quite like prophetic kind of dreams. So we'll see when this comes up. Which is why I freaked out about that dream about almost dying. And I was like, ah, I didn't die. I'm here.

I survived everyone. I thought I was going to die for two weeks, but I'm here. But even that moment when you actually saw that you are disappearing, there was a knowing that didn't disappear. Even if you are a figment of someone's imagination, even there is still, yes, because the knowing of all the scenery was still there. So being a knowing. And as the knowing are the same, there are aspects of the same thing, and as the being or as the knowing or as being knowing you are, and that's all there is to it. The idea that there is something more to it is a thought.

It's a dream. You've already gone. You've seen it fully. You are seeing it fully right now. If you know that you exist and you are aware of that existence, that's it. Now see what's on top of it and throw the rubbish. You're going to see that mind can be allowed. Yeah, the mind telling you, no, no, no, not yet, not this. Later, something bigger, something greater, something more flashy, something that more, you know, the understanding. That's the most elusive, especially for head-oriented people. Understanding gives us such a thrill when you learn your skill and you're so glad you understood something. Or even when you understand someone, what they feel.

Oh, gosh, it's such a pleasure in understanding. Yeah. So we try to grasp it with the mind for that pleasure, for that moment of, oh, I get it. But no, it doesn't happen this way. There is no I to get it. And that sort of intellectual understanding is only a translation and it's only coming and going. It's a glimpse. They are insights that are very pleasurable and very beautiful, but they're passing phenomena. They're not worth it. You want to ground and anchor in something that never changes, that is there all the time, regardless of whether Kiran is suffering or she's dying or whatever is happening.

That presence of awareness is always there, the home, closer than your heart, closer than your breath. Something that never goes away, fully reliable, something you can trust 24-7, 100%. Yes. Even though I can't negate my being. It's so obvious that I exist. It's mind-blowingly obvious. Stop that. I know. And this is just because we're having a meeting and we're discussing it. The fact that that can be so obvious, the being alive, and yet somehow there can be a narration that happens that goes, so you need to see how obvious it is. Yeah. It's... Well, there's an opposite thing that Kat alluded to before. It's crazy that this happens.

The opposite to this kind of a few massive times of nothing and a massive times of shit, nothing, I don't really trust it happened anymore, it could happen again, all that stuff. It's like we should still be about to slow it up, it's slow unravelling. And it's much more, it's not a trust issue thing because hundreds of times a day there'll be enough of a no thing that I don't care and hundreds of times a day it's gone again just like that. But, so it's almost like this... I'm not really bothered. I see enough sky coming up, coming back. Even if it's not deep or abiding, I've never had the deep abiding thing.

Or maybe more a few seconds at the most, but it's triggered out so fast. But the fear of the sky not being there or not ever coming back isn't a thing because it's just constantly showing up and it's clear it's just showing up. But it's not a thing. It's just showing up. You're lucky that you have that. Associated pointers are showing up, whatever. Yeah, so it's kind of, but it's out there, you know, it's not, you know, and it's probably happened for a lot of people. There's some people back for 30 years and slowly, slowly they care less about stuff, you know, as it's shorter and shorter.

And it's entirely a feasible thing. But it is more relaxing because you might get to a point where there's enough of it turns up that the trust... Yeah, see where it's like... Trust issues drop, you know. Where sometimes like we've had the... I think it was like we've had the discussion before where it's been like such a quick like, whoa, this is spooky. And then back to, you know, like the reality that most people have. And so because it's like that thrown in and it's a weird perception change, like I don't even recognise it or know it for what it is in the moment. It's just like...

And we've talked about this and I know that this discussion isn't going to help it because I just have to relax into it and not... And that's subjective. ...and all that. This is the same conversation as always. And that's saying that trust is a stronger thing for some people than others. And, you know, you just might have a big weight. But I think it's quite a thing in Australia. There's a lot of trust issue. Like there's a lot of... On the air, for example, there's a lot of like distrust and then there's a whole lot of head shit. Oh, I've got to check that person's credentials before I listen to them and all that.

Whereas, like for me, that doesn't come up either way. It's just either noticing or not. Billions of moments or not, you know, in a hundred moments, yes, or whatever, in a week or a day or whatever. It doesn't matter so much because it's not a... I've got other bullshit crutches. So it's just like, yeah, I've got a big chest crutch here. Okay. But what Tony said, it was pretty significant because I see we are getting over time. And Cathy is also reminding us that there is... That thinking can be viewed just as another sense and just see them... That was a really helpful point, actually.

That is really like amazing point of how it is. Like, oh, it is. It makes... That makes sense. Yeah. But also what Tony was saying, and I find it brilliant when she comes up with really what is... What do you really want to focus on? On the stillness, on the moments when the sky is clear. See how often throughout the day nothing is wrong. You're not suffering 24-7. Very often, maybe for most of the day already, you are in a state when nothing is wrong, when the sky is clear, when there is nothing actually... Nothing that bothers you, nothing that comes up. Or maybe they're just moments.

But the more acknowledgement goes to that moments of natural state, the more that natural state gets reinforced. As the contrary to focusing on what's wrong all the time and trying to resolve what's wrong. Because nothing... I've just chucked that in a nap for my first year or so. Just up in the nap to go, yeah, appreciate that stuff. And it just happened that it got appreciated here quite deeply. Those moments got quite appreciated really deeply because that's all there were. Just a few of them, you know, and no other. I wasn't having you blinding things. So those things got appreciated deeply. Yeah. Yeah, so thank you everyone.

That was fun. Thank you.