Sailor Bob - Non Duality - I'm stuck - 28 10 18

Okay, so are we ready? Say your names. Tony. Joanne. Tony. Tess. Tony. Victor. Mary. Ross. Tony. One, two, three, four, two, two. Bullshit. We're all going to go home. Yeah. I want to say Tony to his daughter. Yeah, it's only one of us, so we may as well call it, call itself Tony. Yes, I was instructed to kick it off. Hopefully Bob will join. Yeah, so there's only one of us, Tony. And it's just that one appearing in, seemingly appearing in many, many different forms. But ultimately, every form could be broken down to just vibrating pattern of energy, which is an energy, an emptiness that is vibrating into forms.

So that one essence is what we seemingly look for, because we can't find it because we are that. And there is no need to look for it because there is nothing else but that. So search is just another movement of energy. Seeking and imagining that there is something to find and there is someone who is to find it is just another movement of energy. It's a vibration. It's not a thing. Got another Tony. No, call. Yeah, it brings the balance. Now Tony's are only 30% of the crowd. And it's still only one. Still only one. And if there is only one, how could you be anything else than that one?

You couldn't. If everything is just that one. Okay, so all of you really know what it is about. You've heard it many, many times before. So you know that there is only one thing going on. Is one, just one. And it has aspects. Seemingly, it has an aspect because that one is expressing itself. So the expression of emptiness is form. Expression of silence is sound. Expression of stillness is movement. And now the stillness is the reality. The static aspect is the reality. The silence is the reality. And the expression is a Maya or illusion. It's something that is. It's something that is. Transient. Yeah. Yeah.

Wasn't it cool. Yes. Yeah. So everything that is transient that is impermanent, we call it phenomena. And phenomena, it means unreal. It means something that comes and goes, something that doesn't have real existence. Real existence is that which never changes. So that which never changes is the basic screen, which is only a word. Basic screen as such doesn't exist because it's not a thing, it's not an object. The language works in a way that it creates symbols and the words are symbolic for the things that it represents. Basic screen does not have and cannot have the representation because it is a very substance from which everything arises and disappears.

So it isn't a thing that could be found. So looking for it is pointless. How could we look for something that we can't move away from? Did you want to ask something, Mary? One new subject. Why do we all, the seekers, we're all seeking all the time and yet there's nothing to seek? Why do we go crazy? Why do we go crazy? Why do we go crazy about it? You know, books, you know, go to seminars or whatever. Why? Wonderful question. Because it's not recognised. It's a belief. We've been told there's something to seek. That urge comes up to try and find out what we actually are and we continue to seek until we find there's nothing to seek.

There's no seeker for a start-up. Okay. Even though, we were discussing this with Charlie this morning, even though we know there is something to seek, we've got to do something about it. And I speak that for myself. I feel if I don't do anything, I'm not going to get there. Have you ever tried not to do anything? Well I do. I do. But even then I think I may have been too…what's the word? …complacent. Thank you. So you've got to step outside of the crowd. Everybody, 99.9% of the world, are believing there's a self centre there. And for little old me to step outside of that, well, I think he's got to step out…he or she's got to step outside of it.

That would be a very big deal. Right. Well, then we're going to need more. We're going to need more. going to step outside of it, that's a big concern. But what if you realise what they're pointing to is the reality, is the actuality, and it cannot be grasped with a word or a thought or an idea or an image. We're told that, you know, it's non-conceptual. I know, I understand that. And speaking of, like I was watching you guys on Thursday and I thought it was great, I commented on Facebook. I understand all that, but still that mind. Exactly, the mind. Now I've been watching a lot of your things here, I was going to say, the Setsangs here on YouTube, and one of them, someone asked you, had you got awakened, and you said, I was meditating, chanting, but then I realised that I was still playing the story.

That had been a thing for me. It just, that's it, I'm playing the story still. That's what I took it. And that's what you're doing. Eh? That's what you're doing, you're recognising you're still playing the story. Yes. But when you said that, it made me realise that that's what I'm doing. Yeah. There is much simpler answer also to the question, why are we seeking? And then, you know, that same answer applies to everything. Yeah. Everything that we are seeking. We are seeking happiness, we are seeking fulfilment, we are seeking security or safety, we are seeking friendships, we are seeking pleasure. Why? Because we think we don't have it.

Yes. And why we think we don't have it? Well, we don't feel it. And why we don't feel? Why we feel that sense of insecurity and vulnerability? Because this is where the search actually starts, from the sense of separation. There needs to be fear. Yes, sense of void, sense of I'm not enough. Sense of I'm not enough as I am. I'm not good enough as I am. I'm limited, I'm separated, I'm vulnerable. I'm in danger. I need security because I don't have it. I need… You feel something that there's more. Absolutely. You want more. You want more pleasure, more happiness, more joy. I've got to tell you this, since I went into metaphysics… Yes.

For me, it was like winning a Tetzlota, finding out, you know, about… Well, what's… See, I started searching because I started wondering what will happen. I started wondering what will life was about. So, for me, it wasn't about money. It wasn't about happiness in that respect. It wasn't finding out life, what's life for about. Yes. Because what I saw, it wasn't… That wasn't… To me, it wasn't right. It wasn't right. It wasn't enough. That's right. Yeah. Right? So, my search has never been like the things you must have said. No. My search has always been to find… See, I get emotional. To find what… Absolutely.

Absolutely. Yeah. But see… And nothing else. Absolutely. To me, nothing else matters. Yeah. More or less, everyone could land in here, you know. We don't want to be shallow and empty and just want pleasure. We want the truth. But why do you want the truth? Because it gives you a sense of fulfillment. Nothing matters at all. Not nothing else. Nothing matters. And what are you left with then? What if you leave it, instead of searching for pleasure upon whatever we're talking about, all the concepts… We put on. We put on. What are you left with? Just everything as it is. Yeah. What's wrong with business?

As it is, but I'll… Okay. See, well, my name… Now, it says, okay, as it is, but I… It's like I still have not found myself. Can I ask you… Yeah. Can I ask you… Yeah. So, which self it is you… Which self is it that you're trying to find? Well, I speak… I just lose my true self. Okay. So, let's break that down a little bit. Yeah. So, the self you're talking about, you could probably say that's a me, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So, that me, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? There's nothing wrong with it. Okay. So, what happens is the me, which is the mind, is always in motion.

It's always in motion. So, there's this me that you call yourself, which is only an image, which is only a persona, as Bob says, the mask. Mm-hmm. That is an image in your mind, the same as every other thought in your mind. Right? Yeah. And then there's the other thing. There's the other thing. So, that can be a person, place, or thing, or thought, or story. Right? And that other thing creates conflict. Yeah. Because this me, which is the mind, which can only live in the past or the future, is looking for something… Yeah. Right? See, I'm stuck in that. Yeah. So, who is it that's stuck?

That's what you need to look for. That's the true… That's what I'm trying to point to, is that me that you think isn't fulfilled, is still searching… Yeah. Yeah. …who gets emotional, da-da-da-da-da. Yeah. Yeah. That's the mind. See? That is the mind, which is the me, which can only live in the past or the future, creating dis-ease within you. Yeah. And it's the mind that's looking for the other. Yes. Right? So, what does that all appear upon? What does that appear upon? Is there something before all that thought? What breathes you at night? Yeah, I know. I understand that. Ah, but do you? No, I don't.

Because… Yes. …you know, I know exactly what you're saying, because I was there too. I was there, you know, many, many, many times, and Bob would point, and I'd ring Bob up, and, you know, and it was just the mind. Yeah. And you see, there's no answers in the mind. No, there's not. And that's… And it's… …it's like I'm going in a vicious circle. Exactly. So, what… what… what allows you to see that vicious circle? What breathes you at night? What is before all that? See, about a month ago, I had actually an experience. I've told Bob and Terri, I was there too, where I was just doing breathing.

Sometimes I get up to sleep and I do meditation, I was breathing. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, I woke my eyes and there was nothing, just void, and my body wasn't there. And I went, oh, where's my body? I could not feel it. Nothing, it was just void. But this voice was coming from here somewhere. Mm-hmm. And I go, oh, where's my body, what happened? And then all of a sudden, oh, it's happening. I lost it. So, you're having a taste of your true nature. Yeah. Yeah. now I've kept on back to that and I'm seeing things different I keep going back to that thing you know and even the other day I was driving to work and all these things were coming up I could see life so clear and understand it clearly my name is my it's not even a society that I'll you know I just want to get what I think I'm going to get some still some way understood the only on it becomes clear how does it get money again he's stereo and when authority of each I may be staring mother完 and settle in how do no one no one's going to tell you how everyone everybody must recognize that they are already that and it's put many many way look you know you know I get it in this lange that we are dreaming a dream you call the world that's what it's all that's happening here I can't teach you anything I would tell you anything because there's no all these are things you and I and everything are things and something cannot come from nothing so if no thing and all the things that appear on it are not real it wasn't still there was void and and I couldn't even feel you know where you get a taste of it from yes instead of going into the story trying to fix it go back to where you got the taste of it I'm settled in relax and also the important aspect is not to revisit past experiences because now what is left of the past experience is just memory and memory sits in the mind so that exactly you know what I mean and I think that's what I'm trying to do is to just to yeah you know exactly so actually what is wrong with this moment right now because right now if you don't think about your body you don't have the body and see how this is true can you have the face if you don't think about it or visualize it you don't have a face it's just the seeing happening and there is not even a place where it starts or where it stops and how about right now because this is really moment to moment realization all past realizations yes they're beautiful they didn't nice to have a little taste of it but it is going on all the time moment to moment there is never a time where you are not alive and aware and when when when this experience is not actually happening see it is already that awareness happening right now your body is there only when you visualize it or think about it or sense it or even when the sensation is there you have to place it with the mind so that realization is here right now and moment to moment coming back to it is the stabilization process where you actually stabilize and you see what obscures it the idea see how the mind comes in i had a taste of it and now i'm comparing that experience from the past which is only a memory now with the experience present experience and i see what is missing and all that mental activity is happening in the head ah the comparison with the past that's what yeah that's what's very very often and that's gosh i don't know very often it takes us away seemingly away because you can't move away from what you are but it takes attention away from the present realization because the attention goes to comparison to mental activities to what's missing focusing on what is not dreaming imagining just like bob says dreaming adorning dreaming adorning dream, imagining that it should be different, it should be like it was in the past or something.

It's good to just relax and watch the movie. I mean, you know, mind is presenting all that ideas. Wow, cool. I mean, gosh, if you were dead, there would be no ideas. There would be no imagination going on, no projection. It's just when we identify with the projection and we take it to be true and we completely ignore our true nature, the fact of the being, then is when we suffer. Because when you see the mental activity and you actually enjoy it, wow, what a movement, oh, comparison going on, cool, great. I mean, gosh, who cares? You are completely as the basic screen, as the life, as the presence awareness.

You are completely neutral. Your true nature doesn't have preferences. It doesn't prefer day over night or pleasure over pain. It doesn't. It allows everything as it is. And it's not even allowing it because it really, it is already there. So it actually makes it out of itself. So any mental activity that you see, something that is not going on, is great. Just, you know, just enjoy it as a movie, not as reality. So we should get hooked on what happens in these experiences, let's say. Just let them go and that's it. Absolutely. Yes. Just see what, but what Jane and Kat just said is spot on.

You need to see the visualisation that I was getting whilst that was going on, this dialogue was going on, especially in relation to your question, is, you know, if we watch, and the word movie has been used and the word image, we have an image of who and what we think ourselves to be, you know. If you're literally watching a movie on TV. Yeah. Yeah. And there's people in that movie. Those people that we're observing in that movie, even if it, let's say it wasn't a movie, let's say it was a documentary. Yeah. Right? So they're real people as such. Yeah. The people that we're seeing in that documentary, that that we're seeing, is that the actual person?

What is it? So, and what Jane was, yeah? What Jane was trying to do. The thing that we're trying to point at is that we take all this, these images, these ideas about who I am, I'm still seeking, I haven't got it yet, you know, it's the most important thing in my life and rah rah, there's absolutely no difference to all that dialogue that goes on in here, that we take to be who I am. There's no difference between that and what we see on a TV screen, watching a doc. It's, it's, it's. It's the same. It's literally the same. You know, if you think of an apple in your mind, and I put an apple in your hand, what's the difference between the apple that you're thinking about in your mind and a real apple sitting in your hand?

It's still an image. What's that compared to that? Is that an apple? No. It's not? No, it's not. So anything that you conceive as being me, and I still haven't found myself yet and so on, the way through this isn't a matter of finding my true self. It isn't a matter of finding my real nature. It isn't a matter of awakening to who and what I actually am. It's seeing through what we believe ourselves to be and the absolute falseness. The absolute falseness in that, when that's seen, that drops away and you're left with who you are. That's right. Totally left with who you are.

So there's no trying to grab or I'm trying to get something, I still haven't got there yet. The real thing is to see what both these lovely ladies were just really eloquently pointing to, and that is the block, the actual block, Dwayne, that we're breaking into one's real nature is that we believe that what I am is the content of the mind, which we call my self. Yeah. That's the block. Okay, let's . My self is know me or know mind, you know. Like the fellow that told the story about the fellow that was in the young town Kathmandu or somewhere searching for himself. Somebody said, you are the self, and he said, you're welcome to .

I'm searching for my own self. And not unaware of it. Yeah. Yeah. like now you are that awareness. If there's no personal self there, what's aware? If there is no personal self, what's there? You can't say you're not aware. It's self-aware. It's self-knowing. It's self-seeing. It's the one self that we've got the concept and believed in and keep reinforcing that belief in a personal self. It's impersonal. There's nothing personal about it. You're the context, not the content. There's two things that seem to be going on. One is the identification with the illusory self. There's that that seems to be going on. And then there's the fact that there's an aliveness, there's a presence, there's an awareness, like an actual livingness that's occurring.

And both those things are actually being experienced. One of them is true and one of them is false. And I'm following the false. That's it. You got it. That's all it is. And the only reason you're following the false is because 99.9% of people on the planet are doing the same thing. We've been conditioned to do that. We've been trained, trained to do that. What I am is what I think. Of course what I am is what I think would be the statement that would come out of 99.9%. I realised when Bob said I was still alive. I was still alive. I was still in the story.

I realised that. That's where I was stuck. And I said to my husband, I don't know what I'm stuck in, but obviously I am doing the story and I'm not realising what I'm doing. So I was going to say much earlier, it was something, it's kind of what Jay was putting out in a visual. So this present moment, if you're not thinking about it, it's just that empty that everyone's been talking about. And then on either, then it might pop up on either side type thing, you know. For a moment it goes to some memory. For a moment it goes to some manufactured future. And the other times it's the nothing experiences.

And yeah, so it's really just different three different things popping up. At the same time, yeah. Yeah, and at different times. And the one that's empty is the one that's most real. And that's it really. It's not anything you can do to leave it alone or any of that other stuff. Can't change the mind with the mind. And that's a very good pointer what Tony is saying. Yeah. And the definition of reality is that which never changes. And definition of falsehood is that which changes all the time. See how long your thoughts last. That one thought pops up and then it goes away. Another pops up and then goes away.

And the seeking and the anxiety and the, you know, they're all changing. They're all completely changing. So they're not real. They're false. They're still going to change, but you realize that it's all transient. Who's that word again? Transient. But what you are. And transient is in the appearance. Yeah. It's the basic screen, which you can't even call it a screen because it's got no substance, no static point, nothing. It's that essence of which silence appears in, sound appears in, movement appears in the stillness. Thoughts come up and it's utilized. That body is an appearance in it, which the thoughts and speaking come through that body.

And that's the means which it expresses. All these certain, these seeming bodies are the one expression, one pattern, one shape and form. It doesn't mean to say it's not going to still appear like that or will constantly be, but you know the difference is you recognize the truth of it all. Yeah. So basically throw the rubbish. Everything that is constantly changing, deny it attention. And what you left is that, is that, that never changes. Or go into it if you want to, but know the truth about it and you're not going to be bound into it. So you're not going to laugh at it after a while.

Yeah. It's only a recognition. So you don't even really have to throw away anything. It's just a word. Yeah. You recognize. Yeah. I think we're one and too much. That's what it is. Desires. Absolutely. It's totally okay. It's great. It's all right. The cat doesn't care about it. He's got it. That's exactly right. That'll listen to what all these names and scriptures tell us in different ways. Nothing is seen yet it is seen. We're seeing things. It's actually seeing nothing. Pardon? But you're still stuck. Pardon? No. What's the difference? You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck.

You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. You're still stuck. We're here at all the time. I speak from it. And you are still stuck. How do you know you're stuck? How do you know you're stuck? I say stuck. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I know. That is not good. I'm still soothing. I'm not getting anywhere, because I'm flying around America around. You still think that this moment is not good enough. What are you going to be without the word? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Hang on Bob. Yes. That's your question.

Sorry Bob. I say, what are you going to be without the word? Nothing. Well you're not going to... That's what you were before you were born. The word is a very useful thing, but it's not the enemy. But it can be the problem when we take to believe and it causes all our suffering. Look at the cat again. It doesn't have any words. It doesn't have concept that this moment is not good enough. And as you say, when you stop thinking, this moment is totally perfect. But when you start thinking, it gets obscured. But really, does it get obscured? Because what was perfect there, underlying that storm on the surface, is still as it was.

Well obviously, I don't realise that I'm still stuck in the thoughts. Now you have. I can hear what you're saying there. I'm still stuck in the thoughts. The I is also a thought. So recognising is still stuck. Who's recognising? Not the thought. It's a recognition or a resonating. Cosmos. cognizing it. Yeah. So the moment you actually recognize that you are stuck, who is recognized? You know there is a stuckness going on, but this stuckness is already content and in the awareness the screen, the stuckness is going on. How is it yours then? It's not really yours. You're just watching a passing cloud, stuckness. It's not yours.

You are the witnessing, the knowing of it. Because the awareness of it, you're not concerned with whatever is going on on the screen. So you are already that. When you recognize you're stuck, you're already free. You recognize it from the point of freedom. Otherwise you wouldn't know there is stuckness there. Can you see it? There's the ongoing circles cloud statement. What? There's a random ongoing circles cloud. Hi. That's the I that I was talking about, the I or the me. You know, I'm stuck. That's all thought. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. I'm stuck. That's all thought including the thought I.

Exactly, it's beyond that. Exactly. Exactly, it's beyond that . So what's watching? It's closer than that that you're observing. It's closer than that than what you're actually observing. You are the watching. Or, as Bob says, you are the hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. That's before the dialogue goes on or the story. that spontaneous watching, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, there's only oneness. And we all have that hearing, tasting, touching, smelling happening all the time, right? And then the dialogue comes on. Oh, I didn't like that before. I'd rather have that there and I'd rather do this and I'd rather do that and I'm stuck and I haven't got it and I need to be enlightened, da-da-da-da-da.

And then you go, oh, cognising emptiness again. So every time you see that, it's a cognising of the emptiness that all that crap appears upon that creates that disease within you or that conflict within you, thinking, and it's all dialogue. It's the only way the mind can operate. It can only operate in the pairs of opposites, pleasure, pain, before, you know, me, you, happy, sad, me and how I felt last week when I was meditating. Yeah. Yeah. The story, you know. Do you realise that, have you seen that you're not the thoughts? From time to time I have realised it, yes. You don't? Yes. I've had a thing where I know that that wasn't like a thought that came from me, sort of say, or something that was there, I know.

Then one time I was looking at my grandchildren photo and I laughed and I go, where did that come from? That wasn't me as this, right? Yeah. There is times where I'm aware of myself or myself, no? I don't know. Yes. You're telling the story. You're telling the story. I'm very interested in what you're saying. There is times where I'm being aware and there's other times where the thoughts come in and... Wasn't the question. That wasn't the question I asked. You said about... You're worrying about your thoughts. It's been a hard time. I'm not on thoughts. You're not on thoughts. Are you aware that you're not the thoughts?

Right now, no. You think you're... Right now, no. Where are you not the thoughts? You recognise it then. Right now, no. Where do you want to start? Right now. Sorry. It's all right. Come on. I'm getting my puzzle. It's all right. It's good. It's all right. It's all good. Wonderful. It's all good. Yeah. The more scrambled you get, the better sometimes. Like really. Another thing you need to look at, what Terry said before, closer. That's what Tennyson said. Closer than your breathing. Nearer than your hands and feet. So closest thing. What's prior to the breath? Do you disappear before the breath? Yeah. Good. There is awareness there.

So it's saying, I'm aware. And that's all that's in this room. And is that the closest? Is that the most intimate, the most... It's just there. It's just there. Just there. Yeah. And it's really so familiar that it comes almost invisible. But it's undeniable. Completely undeniable. That when you actually just come as close to the self, to home, to as intimately close to your own core of your essence or your heart of your being or whatever, what is it? It won't be a thought because thought comes and goes. It's a feeling. Yeah. It could be a feeling or it is something. Even the feeling is changing.

Sometimes the feeling is warm. Sometimes it's anxious. Even the feeling is... There is something even closer and even more intimate than the feeling. And you can't pinpoint it as an object. You can't make it to... Like if you say, oh yeah, my presence or my aliveness. Even the vibration of aliveness is changing. And it's something that is happening in others. Totally. Yeah. But there is something that you can't deny. Like if someone asks you, do you know that you are or you believe it, you know it. Yeah. Don't try something... Don't try and grasp it as an object. Something is no thing. Yeah. As Jane pointed out earlier, you know, mind is the past.

There's no such thing as mind. Mind is the me. The mind is the past. There's no me in the present. In the actual, immediately at this moment before the next thought comes. The next thought comes up. See, there's this... Something that never changes, that was there with you since you were born. What is it? Something that is always with you. That breathes you at night. Yeah. I thought that was the first thing she said. It's just there. It's just... It is. I know even at night, even at times I wake up, I get awakened. Because I just, I'm asleep, I wake up, I see they've got a medicine, I wake up, I'm awake.

I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. And I hear they've got a meditation or do something, right? I wake up and I'm gone. Who is the one that has awakened me up? You know what you just said, just then? That's what needs to be saying. When you're not saying that what you're seeing your thoughts and thoughts that arise. Okay. And then there's assumed that there's a me here that is aware of the thoughts that are up, that arise. Okay. And what needs to be seeing is that idea. that me identity that just spoke and you're not seeing there you're not seeing that you're seeing the thoughts and you know this confusion and I see this sometimes and I say that sometimes and so on so what you're not seeing is the one that's going I say this sometimes and I see that sometimes that that's speaking you're not seeing that so you're seeing the content of all the stuff that prattles on in the mind but what you're failing to see is that that's saying i'm seeing this and i'm seeing that is also nothing but thought pattern and you're not seeing that mary that sits there and might be digesting or ruminating over what i'm actually saying to you right now whatever it is that's going on for mary right now as this dialogue is happening that needs to be seen that mary what is that this and that's what i meant by it's it's closer and we don't we don't um see it initially as something observable we are we become it it's so close that we wear it and we literally become it like you used to do before you were exposed to this teaching in terms of you you all the normal thoughts that just prattle on that you're now aware of, you've got a bit of distance up between all that stuff that goes on in your mind.

You've got some distance up and you can see it coming and going. And you go, oh yeah, I'm not choosing that. That's just kind of floating through and so on. That distance that you now have, you don't have any distance up yet in relation to me, Mary, the entity that's here. There's no distance up. That's why you're stuck because you can't see it. You still think that there's a Mary there. You totally believe that there's a Mary there. And that Mary that you're believing to be there is nothing but a pattern of thoughts. And you're taking that to be who you are. Like you're not catching it.

You're not catching it right here, right now, in the moment, as it's spinning. As it's speaking. As it's saying something. You're not catching it there. And you can only catch it in the moment. Do you understand? I'm stuck. Well, what you need... But Mary, but Mary. That's okay. But what you need to look for is that that just said, I understand, but I'm stuck. Who's stuck? You need to look for that. And until you start looking there, you'll keep looking in the mind, for answers. You'll keep coming in, you'll keep asking questions, and you'll keep trying to get things. So in other words, I have to do the inquiry, who's stuck?

Who's the one? Who am I? Who am I? And so you just saw that. So that's a breakthrough right there. It is. Because I've done it a few times. Yeah. A lot of times. And was there anybody there? No. Okay. It's just constantly... And that's why I gave up. I gave up. That's good. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. I gave up. So that's why we try to gossip with the concept, and we can't. And in the beginning was the word.

Without words, we've got to use words here, but none of the words as well. What's beyond the words? The silence and the stillness. You can't... There are only words, too. You can't even say that. You can't negate it. What you're experiencing right now, right this second, is just a pattern of thoughts. That's all. That's all it is, and we take it to be who I am. Who's stuck? So you're isolated. It's not that it's not positive, it's just seeing the truth. It's just seeing the truth, Tony. It really is. It's just seeing what is actually going on here. Who am I really? Where do the thoughts appear?

Where do the thoughts appear? Who to? Why? You see them popping up of their own accord. See if you would actually be, if you would, for example, want to write your autobiography or any other book, then you want to construct a character. Let's say it will be about you. How would you construct the character so it seems autonomous and believable? You give it a little bit of a picture of a body. You give it a little bit of a personality. You give it few past events and experiences. And now the character seems real. And now if something happens to the character and the character is crying, maybe the one who is reading the autobiography will also cry.

So it feels. This is how the selfplex, this is the science, the memetics call it selfplex. It means there is just a construct made of thoughts. It's completely redundant and it has been proven in many, many different ways if you're interested in science. It's totally unnecessary. It's a construct which actually helps to propagate more thoughts because thoughts are such a channel of expression for this ocean, such wonderful waves that can show up. Yeah. So this memeplex or selfplex that constructs that personality core, that selfimage as Bob says, that has been grown in us is actually what causes the suffering. That is what feels like I'm stuck in this.

I'm actually in a cage of that sort of a selfplex or the self-center. You're not creating that. You're not. The life is creating. There is no you. You're not creating that. You're not creating that. You're not creating absolutely everything. Life has created all past events and experiences. Life has given you labels. Parents have given you labels. So what I'm saying is whatever appears to me, whatever thoughts come to me, I'm just gone with the flow of that. No? It's as it is and it moves on. Yeah. If you take it on, it's on with you. And there's nothing created. Nothing ever been created. No creator and there's no creator.

It's all appearing. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal manifestation. Phenomenal event and a more internal manifestation is all dreamlike. … then it goes back to no thing. There is just an idea. Like seriously, ma'am. You just reinforce that its just there, right? That was a joke. But it is. It's just an idea. It's only – and that's why it often gets used and Tony's brilliant at it – What's wrong with right now? unless I think about it. Where's Mary if there's no thought? Like really? Do you exist? Do you exist if there's no thought? I'm talking about Mary.

Does Mary exist if there's no thought? No. Then what's Mary? Just an image. Just the thought. Just a word, just a sound and we've given a meaning to a sound. Literally. You know, if you want to really nail down on it, like really nail down on this personalised me, it's a sound. And we've given meaning to a sound. That's it. That's as close as you can get, a sound. Are you a sound? Which sound would you be? Bob wants to add something. You haven't disappeared, have you, without a word? When you say no, I'm not... I'm not going to disappear without seeing myself. But then I'll look at you and I'll be here.

Your sense of existence, you still exist. What you are, that's a different story. Remember I said before there's two things? One's false, one's real. If there's no thought going on, one of those is going to disappear. Which one's going to disappear? The body. The false. The false is going to disappear. What's going to be left? The truth of your own existence. That, that this is trying to find. Yeah. It can't. Because whilst this is here, it blocks that completely. Can't, can't see it, can't have it, can't be aware of it, can't anything. Because it's a dream. It'd be like a dream character in a dream, expecting to know what it's like to be awake.

When you, when the, when the body stirs and it wakes up in the morning. The dream character can't know this awakened state here. I'm talking about your dream character in your dream when you're asleep, dreaming at night. It can't know this. It can't. How could it? And yet, whilst you're, whilst you are dreaming and, and, and you're asleep in, in that dream, which you've got no control over. None. Yep. That's right. There's a dream that gets created when you're asleep at night. And then there's you in the dream. And all sorts of stuff goes on whilst you're in that dream. Whilst you're dreaming. You take that, that the dream character takes the dream to be real.

You do. You take your dreams in your dream to be real. And all that dream character is, is a moment of thinking about it. And, and where it wants to go, it's not thinking about it. A moment of thinking about it. Not a whole dream character. Just a moment of thinking about it. And then not thinking about it. A moment of thinking about it. Or making meaning of it. And then nothing. Meaning, meaning making nothing. Meaning making nothing. So the dream character in your sleep wants to experience being awake. Is that possible? No, not if I'm dreaming about it. Oh, that's interesting. But that's what it wants.

The dream character in this dream, I want to be awake. I want to get this. I want to be awake. You know? It's impossible. Because as soon as awakening happens, what happens to the dream character? Gone. Gone. Disappears. Poof. It's just a bunch of spontaneous moments. Gone. You've got a bud over here. Yeah. You know, I was, about 18 months ago, I was having a dream with lots of dramas in it. And I came back through into another room and I went, this is a dream. Yeah, that happens too sometimes. Yeah. But all the fear about the dream left. Yeah. And I was off to have fun.

Yeah. And then I woke up. I understand. And here's the thing. So what happens then? Exactly the same as what happens here. Sometimes people have realizations. Like you've shared. Sometimes we go, oh, God, it is a dream. Oh my God. It is a dream. Five minutes later, we're back in the dream again. But we do have experiences of, oh God, I'm waking up. Yeah. It's a dream. And you can have, like, a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's a dream. And you can have, like, it's kind of like a similar experience when you are asleep.

I've had it. You know, I've had realizations while I've been asleep in the dream, my character in the dream. Oh, God. And somehow it just came to me in the dream. Oh, this is a dream. Yeah. And there was a, literally, there was a relaxing that I experienced in the dream. And that wasn't none of that. And none of that was even real. Even the relaxing of it. And even the idea of, oh, it's just a dream. The whole fucking thing's a dream. So when you wake up, you know, Mary woke up now, would it be a bit like that? A bit like? You know, waking up in a dream?

From the dream. Absolutely. It is. That's why that analogy gets used all the time. It gets used all, it's a wonderful pointer. This that we're living in today and we're on this search and we're trying to get, you know, whatever it is that we think we're trying to get. Yeah. And the essential idea that's going on, say, between my ears is nothing but a dream. They call it the sleeping dream, and then there's the waking dream, and they're the same. You have to wake up. And the experience of it. Paul factless, but I will. The experience of a wake in as such is quite the same as waiting from the dream when you're asleep or not.

You wake up in the morning and that's all. All right. gone the whole dream that you've been experiencing monster asleep it's completely gone like gone and then there's just awake and then you hear and then a split second later you go to sleep again and we're in this waking dream and then we're dreaming again when were you ever sleep once you just desire get out of pointers out once you've seen the dream as a dream you've done all you need to do yeah yeah you don't want to wake up from the dream you don't you will you will I promise you when the body dies but while while you awake you have this wonderful dream character you have the vehicle capability of seeing hearing tasting touching smiling enjoy it it's a dream going on and you know it's a dream love it enjoy it to the fullest appreciate it because this is you you're through the the liveness that is expressing through the body as the body through the dream as the dream why end it yeah that's what what actually happens here it's not simply strange but what actually happens is people are asleep just like you are when you're lying on a bed at night and you're dreaming what actually happens here whilst you're lying on on your bed at night and you're dreaming someone is coming along there will be Bob or whoever someone is coming along and gently whispering in your ear whilst you're lying down on the bed at night you're just dreaming it's time to wake up come on come out of there you're just dreaming it's time to wake up and then and you can't and eventually you hear that and you stir and you wake up that's all that's happening that's all that's happening so in other words you've lived your life your entire life in dream dreaming that you're the image you have about yourself which is called Mary that everyone calls you Mary you've been told you're Mary you know all your life you've identified with that label of Mary and then as Terry said you're asleep and then Bob came along and said hang on you're not Mary because Mary's only a label that's only an image you know time to wake up you're not that character you're not that character you're not that image in the dream that's not you you just are you just are it's awakening from the dream it's awakening to the dream that it is a dream it's awakening to the dream that it is a dream yes say again what Mr.

Gadada was saying there's no need to wake up from it let him speak what do I got to say you just said it but you whispered yeah he says realize you are dreaming a dream you call the world that's what's going on you're dreaming and he says stop looking for ways out don't try and find your way out of it the dream is not your concern your concern is you'll have one part of the dream and not the other he says take that discrimination away love all of it or none of it but recognizing it is a dream waking to the dream not from the dream it's all a dream and that's why they call it Maya or illusion illusion is a phenomenal manifesto in that which appears to be just a dream appears in sleep or on sleep this manifestation is appearing on this waking dream and so you're only gonna do it you're not gonna sleep with it seem any real, at all.

And it doesn't mean to say it's going to disappear. But knowing the truth about it, you're not bound into it like we were before. That's a beautiful saying in one of the scriptures I read. He says, I am I who is conscious. Consciousness. It calls the consciousness. It can call the . Everything is fictitious like a dream. So what does it matter what I say, think or do? Thinkingness doesn't mean to say stop thinking. Thinking, what does it matter? You're not bound into the thought. I go about and dance with joy, whatever it is. It's not bound into it. Thinkingness. Thinking this is a dream or what does it matter, it doesn't matter, or .

You think those thoughts will come up. There's no think or thinking. We think there. . In the recognition of those things, it comes up. So you don't have to discard the thoughts, feelings or emotions. That's what they tell you. It's knowing the truth about them. So if you wake up to that character, like the example I gave you at the autobiography or even a movie of your life, whatever kind of feels right, you know. You have this dream character, Mary, and now you are waking up to the dream character, Mary. So you open and you read the book. What is Mary going to say next?

What is Mary going to do next? I don't know. I'm the one who is reading the book or I'm the one who is completely aware of Mary's life. Mary, the character, is moving about her dream, is moving in her book or in her movie or whatever. And you don't know what you're going to do next. You don't know what you're going to say next. But there is an awareness which is going to be kind of witnessing it, which is going to be noticing it. This is going to be registered on that basic screen. . So waking up. . Waking up from the dream of Mary doesn't mean that the character disappears, the body disappears, the personality.

No, that will still be going on. But now you are free from it. You can watch it. It can even be still your favorite character if it happens this way because it's the closest. You're still kind of wearing the body to see the world through it. And then you can see the character. You can see what it does, what it feels, what it, you know. . Just have the curiosity about that character. character that is not who you are, but is just something that is happening on the screen. What formed Mary? Did Mary form Mary? No. What formed Mary? You're the one who's watching. She's appeared on the run.

Yeah, appeared on the run. The life essence. See how Mary came about. What's the top when you say about the child that is being born is getting two, two and a half and it starts learning words, getting labels. I'm a little Johnny. I'm a good boy or a bad boy or I'm interested in this or that. And this memeplex or selfplex, this core, this bundle of thoughts that creates the core of identity is growing, is being added all different memories, experiences. And the worst one is being added. The capacities that it does. It doesn't have like the eye thinks that it can this core of the being that is mixture of of of different thoughts.

It thinks it can see, but it can't. The body is seeing the eye can't see anything like close your eyes and see how much you can see with the eye, with the thought Mary, I marry the selfplex or the self center. How much I can see without the eyes? Nothing. So it doesn't see anything. It doesn't hear anything. It doesn't have any capacities. It's just a bundle of thoughts held together. So the life gets kind of more, you know, dramatic because when I tell you that, uh, gosh, I like pizza. Oh no. Pizza is being tasty or likes it. And then I'll say, I love it.

See how much the self identity adds the drama to the world. And it adds suffering. It got preferences that thinks liking, disliking desires, attachments. Yeah. It's all that juiciness comes in this one. And because the basic screen is completely indifferent, it doesn't prefer to have the self or not have the self create the self center or doesn't create it. It's completely neutral. It's completely transparent. It doesn't care whether you wake up from your ego, you don't wake up from your ego or the character or whatever. So it is when you actually see, see it for what it is. You can marvel at it. Also. I think how that bundle of thoughts hijacks that or believes it hijacks the capacity of seeing hearing.

And it says, I see here, I relate and translates everything to me as relevant to me. And this I is absolutely is just hallucinated phantom. It doesn't exist. It is not there. So now as you see that construct, that whole construct moving about your life, you can just say, Whoa. And you are still the screen. Now you're waking up to the dream character. See the moment you waking up to the dream character, you see the dream character for what it is. The attention doesn't sustain it that much anymore. So it kind of start looking more and more fake until it collapses. It may collapse in just split second or it may take a while before it kind of loosens up and becomes comes to the point when it is not believable at all anymore.

Like you already woke up from believing that you are the physical body. It is new. Yeah, you know that also you to big extent woke up from the idea that you were a thought one or the other. Oh yeah. But this kind of this construction is pretty smart. It's really well done. It's really a brilliance. Brilliant intelligence is the evolution of the, of the, you know, evolution is also a thought. But it seems like you in the dream. Yes, it is something that gives the dream much more flavor and it just gives you so much in believing in the dream. Yes and also it puts multitude of dreams over it because you know when you kind of walk walking up from that self center, they are random like action thoughts happening, you know, like functioning thoughts, but there is not much happening and I know that about Bob.

I know that about myself and a lot of people here. Not much of the dreaming about or fantasizing about future, not much of the anxiety regarding future or past or not much of investment in what isn't. So the drama goes, goes really down. I mean that life is, it gets completely different flavor in a way that what is gets much more attention and it gets much more tasty in a way. But the dramatic stories they of course they come up. Of course they come up concepts come up without them. They you know, functioning would be hard and they also sweet even if the memory comes up and visits the sweet, but there is no investment because there is no relating to that personal self.

So that personal self not only opens much, much more of the channels for expression and for dramas for thoughts. See when you have the separate self. You. Let's say have thousand thoughts per day and 999 will be about me. And if you don't dream that separate self, you probably going to have, I don't know much less and all that about me will be probably very weak or gone. So from the perspective of the, of the ways or channels of expression, waking up from the self plex or that self center. Yeah. Yeah. It's not even desirable. One could say because suddenly the expression goes kind of blunt, you know, in a way, but of course it's not the case because the, the juiciness comes to the aliveness of this moment of that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, which is also a dream.

And then waking up from this, that's completely different story because you wake up from seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling means the body dies. But even the. The cognition of, of the thinking process of see when you see your mind, every thought you have is completely new universe, fully furnished and fully equipped with the feelings, sensations, emotions, whatever you think, you think about your daughter, you think about the meditation last week and it all comes up and it's all there is to be experienced. But when you realize it is just a vision and image. While the reality of, you know, of. That seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, which is not reality either, but it's kind of like a primary dream is there and it doesn't really get much attention because all the attention flows and feeds that images, that imagination.

Then you may actually want to wake up from the imagination from relating to that personal self first recognizing images. That's really yummy. When you actually see. How much. How much. Time is invested in creating that artificial realities by imagining by imagination. And then it becomes obvious that all that imagination goes on because it's related to the me to this self, you know, to that, to that construct made of thoughts that makes it personal. That makes that gives it a drama. Yeah, it, it makes it important because if there was nobody there and all that images were going on. Okay. Who cares? Yeah. Who cares? They wouldn't mean anything.

They come and go and they still, you know, to certain extent, some of them, they come and go, but that importance, that, that drama, that anxiety, that even, even the pleasures coming up from understanding something or getting something that's actually completely replaced by different type of experiences that come right from the awareness of being. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you watch Home and Away, it looks like the people in Home and Away think it's all really, really important, but you're watching it and you're going, yeah, oh, wow. Talking about dreams, I didn't want to mention this, but since we're talking about dreams, and we all do this, so it doesn't matter.

I was in bed, I wanted to get up to have a pee and I couldn't get the body to get up, but all of a sudden I found myself at the toilet. Mm. And it was a bad way and I thought, no, no, if I pay I'm going to wet the bed. The body was in the bed, but I was in the toilet. And I said, no, no, no, why? So I went back to the bed. And after a couple of minutes I did it again. I got up, I found myself on the toilet again. And this went, it was a kind of long story, went for about eight or nine times, seriously.

I could not get the body to get up from the bed to follow me to go to the toilet. Yeah, amazing, isn't it? Yeah. So what was that then? It's the most interesting story I've heard in a long time. The way I understand it is, sorry? It's the most interesting story I've heard in a long time. Well, I couldn't get the body to get up. What happened in the end? Oh, then eventually I did get up. No, I didn't pay the bed. I thought, at 65 I don't want to pay the bed. Yeah. Yeah. But it was just unbelievable. I could not get the body to follow whoever was going there.

Obviously my awareness was going there, right there on the toilet, ready to pee. But then thinking, oh no, if I pee, I'm going to wet the bed. Because the body, I knew that the body was there. It's just amazing the way you... And intelligence told you. So? Intelligence told you you were still in the bed. Yeah, yeah. I was aware of both things. I couldn't understand. So, do we talk about dreams? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. When you actually look at... Tony was just starting saying a variety of ways it expresses. It's infinite, absolutely infinite. Every moment is so beautifully juicy and different and is so rich in all the flavors and textures and everything.

Seeing the dream from this perspective, even if there is some uncomfortableness, or something that is labeled as unpleasant, even if it's viewed from this perspective of infinite creativity of that, it doesn't hurt. There's no suffering. See, all these patterns seem solid and real, you and me and everything else out there in the manifestation. But it's all phenomena, all appearing only. And regardless of the drink, you were still moved. It had nothing to do with you. So, regardless of the drink? So, regardless of the drink, right? You were still moved. To get up and go to the toilet? Well, not get up and go. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you didn't do a thing. It's only the story that you've got going around about not getting up. There's a big story around that. But the reality is, eventually, you were moved to go to the toilet. It had nothing to do with your dream or being aware of content of the dream or I'm sleeping or I'm this or I'm having this. And I thought... I thought I was standing in front of it having to pee and then I realized, oh, I'm still asleep again and I still haven't had the pee yet. That's the story. Okay. But regardless of the story, you eventually got up and moved, which had nothing to do with you or the story.

Can you see it? No, I can't. Say it again. Eventually, I got up, right? No, eventually, you were moved. Life wanted to pee. Nature's call. It was nature's call. It was nature's call. It was nature's call. It was nature's call. There was no toilet. There was no toilet. So, in other words, eventually, it had to happen without me, right? Yeah. Yeah. It did. Exactly. It did. The reality is, try lying there and not letting it happen. You'll eventually piss the bed. Well, you'll get up and move. Yeah. Probably, you'll get up and... Life will get up and move. See, Tony, if you would imagine that there is...

Just imagine for a start that there is nobody there, that there is no Tony inside that is to decide or there is no Tony that wants to invite the body. What if there was just a pure functioning? What if there was no that self-center or that self-plex wasn't there? The body would still... The brain would send the neuronal signals that would create the tension in a bladder and there would be some movement or there would be some images going on. See, there are thoughts, feelings, emotions, all of those things. There is nobody doing them. You don't do your seeing. You know that, huh? You know that.

The seeing, the process of seeing. Yes. Same. You don't do your digestion. You don't do your hair growing. You don't do the information of the bladder being full. You don't do it. It's just happening. That's how the body functions. Now, thinking. Also, you don't do the thinking. This is also happening. On top of the other part of functioning, there is thinking going on. There are stories going on. There are thoughts going on. There is, again, nobody who leads them up, nobody who starts them or who stops them or who follows them. I understand the fact that we don't choose the thoughts because when I have a, let's say, you know, I go blank and then a thought comes, I can't go back and say, oh, I thought of that.

I can't because I didn't. So, I realize that the thoughts just do pop up. Yeah, cool. You know, because you can't go back and say, well, I made a decision to choose that thought. I can't do that anyway. I can't say that. So, I realize that the thoughts are there. I realize that the thoughts just do come up. That's wonderful. And do you think there is anything that you can do? Like, do you think you can, you know, the thoughts come up. You know that you can't choose them. You know you can't make any conscious decision or you don't have any free will to choose the thoughts because they just come up.

So, now the same way as the story at night happened, there was a story of, you know, the thoughts come or the mental images came of going to the toilet and leaving the body behind. That is also not something that you created or that happened to you. It is just the floating sensations, floating thoughts. There is an awareness. You are that awareness or that basic screen. And that images from the past came up. The body on the bed, the awareness in the toilet or the movement. Can you see how this, even this sort of a scenery doesn't require a self-center or the ego or the I that is orchestrating or controlling.

Or managing it. Or even knowing about it. It is just, it is just, see, just like the cat here. It doesn't take anything completely, anything personally. It is just life moving it. Life is moving its guts. Life is moving the attention. Where is it looking? Well, I realized it was just happening and I had no choice basically. Absolutely. That's it. That's all there is to it. Yes. It happened about eight, nine times and I still couldn't get the body to get up. You know what I mean? Yes. So I had no choice until it did happen like you said. Eventually it did happen. That's a wonderful illustration of how you are not the doer.

It's great because you can recognize the same, the very same pattern moment to moment. How everything just thoughts appear and the action follows or doesn't. Thought doesn't appear and the action follow or doesn't. You know. It's just the awareness and the movement. Now one of the thoughts will be translating, oh, this is my movement or my action. But that's also just another set of thoughts that appear spontaneously. There's not a person that does anything. If that pointer is fully understood, there's nothing more that is needed really. If you understand that you are just the space-like awareness or the sky-like awareness and everything that is happening within it is not normal.

It's not, none of your doing is just spontaneous functioning, thinking, everything. One guy, a while ago I was listening, he used to call that, he probably knows it too, he used to say it's the clown that takes the bow. In other words, you take the credit for it but you don't, you haven't done nothing. That's right. The credit could be a positive credit, that could be a negative credit too. That's right. But you don't actually, you know, it's the clown that takes the bow. In other words, he might say that he's done it but he hasn't done nothing. Yeah, that's right. That's it, yep. Without that life essence fattening through that body, what could it do?

What does a corpse do? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yep. That's the life essence. It's how could you have a thought without that life essence in the body? How could you blink your eyes, do anything at all? And that life essence, you can't say what it is either. It's the same. Life essence is functioning in this manifestation or universe which is all-mire. When you compare it with what you just said, a corpse, it's an extra one. I've thought of that myself. What is the difference between a corpse and a person alive? Now, he's got the heart, the lungs, blah, blah, blah, blah. This one's still got it, got everything that he's got, everything he's got.

But there is one thing that that's not there and which is here and that's whatever you want to call it, consciousness or whatever. The life force or the intelligence energy or whatever. Animation. Animation or whatever, yes. Yes. That's, yeah, beautiful. That's, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Can we separate this? Can we separate it? Can we separate it? Can it be separated? Can we separate it? Yeah. Can it be separated, that life essence? No. Can we separate it? What do they call it? Sentience. What did you say, Bob? They... It can't be separated. He said something else. Sentience. Oh, yeah. Mm. So, Mary, if you could see it the same way he is seeing, like, you know, the activity of seeking or the idea that I'm still alive.

Yeah. And the idea that I'm stuck. And that contraction that comes with that idea. I mean, of course, you know, there is emotional component to every image because that's the same aliveness that is animating it. Now, if I take a thought, I'm wonderful. Ah, gosh, that feels so good. If I believe it, of course. And then I have... And I take a thought, ah, shit, I'm stuck. I'll be crying. I'll be having cortisol going up and down in my body. I'll be creating. I'll be breeding my own cancer in ten years. But the good thing about the whole process of recognition is that every thought can be recognized for what it is.

Whether I'm wonderful or I'm stuck is still a thought that is happening on the sky-like awareness or... What is it the other way they say it? Whatever the... Whatever you like to call it. Whatever you want to call it. The words, not the thing in it. Basic screen or... Or cognizing emptiness. In that intelligent emptiness, the emptiness with the capacity of noticing and recognizing, there is a thought, I'm stuck. But there is not you. There is some character. There is a... There is some image of a character being stuck. But you are the one who is free, always free and unbound and aware of that process, of that movement.

And you see how this, I'm stuck, is also changing. You're not stuck when you sleep at night. You're not stuck when you go for a beautiful sunny day out or something. Yeah, so it comes and goes. So it's unreal. So it's false. It's transient. All sorts of thoughts are going on. The practice sort of thing. Yeah. All sorts of... I've got a few thoughts. Can you explain them? Yeah, let him, let him. Oh, sorry. Go on. All sorts of thoughts are happening. Would you choose these thoughts? The unhappy, the sad, the miserable. The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to...

The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... The best way to... Yeah. Yeah. If you're all lined up in a row, you pick up all the good ones. But you can't do it. So you realise that there's no choice maker. That's right. No, that I understand 100%. Now, yeah. But cognising... What did you say? Emptiness. Emptiness. Can you explain that to me please? Because I don't understand exactly what... Well, it's empty. The whole manifestation is empty. Empty. So what's cognising? Cognising... I looked it up in the...

Well, the same. It uses the same as knowing. It says something... Knowing. Knowing. Knowing. Knowing. Recognising is knowing again. So cognising is knowing. Pure knowing without the... Not personal knowing. It's a cogn... Consciousness. That's emptiness that's doing the cognising. The cognising is appearing and it's appearing like everything else in this manifestation. And if you look... Noticing. If you look at the substance of every sensory experience, let's say there's seeing going on. Yeah. How do you know? That's the same knowing. There's hearing going on. How do you know? This is the knowing. This is the cognising. There's an emptiness that is cognising. It's like a mirror.

Pretend you're the mirror. Inside the mirror and looking out. It's just consciousness looking out and everything's just happening in that spaciousness. So instead of looking out the mirror, be inside the mirror and this is it. There it is. What you were saying about your thought before, like I've noticed a notion pop up, I think of going to ring somebody. And then... Yes. And then a bit later there's a sentence, oh I think I will go and ring blah blah blah. And it's noticing all just popping up out of nowhere, that I think I will was an utterly meaningless addition to the front of that sentence, and redundant, and the whole rest of it was redundant, it was just a description of what had already popped up.

One was there, the others were there, you know, it was just, hmm, coming out of nowhere. But even though the thoughts just pop up, they seem to pop up to each individual body, you know, according to their lifestyle or their condition, as you said. Each pattern is a unique expression. There's no two blunders like yours. Each pattern is a unique expression. That's the wondrous diversity it connects, the pattern, shape and form in. No two leaves on the tree out there are the same. No two fingerprints are the same. So it's a uniqueness of expression in all, it's variety and diversity, but nothing's ever happened. It's only seemingly so.

And also thoughts, the thoughts and conditioning is also completely moving, is flowing throughout all life. You may pick up a new hobby tomorrow, and you'll get a lot of thoughts relevant to that new hobby. Everything is kind of, you know. Yeah, follows on, yeah. I understand that. It's like the tracks, the light attracts the light sort of thing, yeah. Yeah. But the screen it's all appearing on has never changed. Yes. Yeah. Full stop. And I'll demand... We are only the one screen. We are everything. We are everything ultimately. Because the pointer that, you know, the static aspect is real, or screen is real, and Maya is illusion, is very valid pointer.

But ultimately even Maya, the illusion, is a movement of the same stillness. So we are absolutely the one, the totality. So including the space and including the what is changing, ever changing. Well, you said that it goes back to when, you know, we say, you know, we make the statement, I am not the body, right? Yes. So in one way we are saying, I am not the body. Yes. But then... Ultimately you are every body. Ultimately you also are the body because you are that. But not one exclusive body. So it's sort of a... It seems contradictory, but it's not. It seems because, you know, when you say, I am not the body, it breaks down the identification with one particular body.

Yes. If you would say, I am every body. Yes. I am every single body, the identification is not there, so it doesn't need breaking. So the pointer is actually a functional pointer. The neti neti excluding everything like a separated one sort of a way of expressing, like I am not the mind, I am not thinking, I am not, you know... Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. It's like when we say, I am not the body or the mind, it's just a way of breaking... Yes. ...the two, you know, to separate the two... Yes. ...for that individual... Yes. ...person, let's say, which is not individual, but just for him to realise that, you know, who he really is, that he's...

That's true, yeah. ...that he's not just that body. Because otherwise we think we're just that body. Exactly right. Exactly right. I am that. That is everything. We know that in our language. That's the chair, that's the carpet, that's you, that's me. In labels we put on the differentiators. So if you would say, I am every single body, then you would say, I am not the body. Yes. I am not the body. Yes. I am not the body. Yes. I am not the body. Yes. I am not the body. Yes. If you would say, I am every single body, body of the tree, body of the house, body of the clouds...

...but it is a chair. ...nobody would tell you, you are not the body. Yeah. Because it wouldn't be relevant. Yeah, I understand. All the pointers are actually... They're very contradictory, one to another. Every pointer can be bottled up and proven to be absolutely idiotic. Yeah. Every single one, because they're words, and words are symbolic to objects. And what we are talking is non-conceptual, which means wordless awareness. So now we are using words to point to something beyond words. So of course every word is wrong, every pointer is wrong. Even calling it anything, even calling it an awareness or wordless or non-conceptual awareness is wrong because it assumes that there is something there.

Yes, it can all be pulled apart with the word, but can you negate your beingness? Can anybody knock you off that patch? I am not the body, I am not the thoughts, I am not this character, some might call it a personality, I am not this, I am not this, I am not this, I am not this. And you wake up and you go, fuck that was a bullshit. I am this, but I am also that, and that, and that, and that. You need that I am not the body just to separate, to see the personal presence of you. It is the personal identity that is the problem.

Which is what feels isolated and separate and fearful and detached and stuck and I haven't got this and oh woe is me. Different people go through, some go through a long listing of that for a decade and some bang don't even need to do any of it. And it will be everything in between. That's right. Yes, it doesn't ever happen the same time, the same way. It falls off the tree bank, other fruit takes a long time to ripen. The cat doesn't care what it is. It knows that it is, not that it is a cat, it just knows that it is. It is only the human form that can know what it is.

But it can't, I mean it seemingly can know, but what it knows that it is, is going to be false. That's why the identification, I am the body, that's false. I am the mind. That's false. I am sky like awareness. That's false. Yeah, that's false. Yeah, but you're right, the opportunity or the possibility of assuming the consciousness of the life, assume itself as something other, something different, something else, body, mind, how marvelous. That's what creates the whole dream. Yes, the words that create all the manifesto, yes the words are not. And so if we didn't have the words, we'd like the cat. Seeing no things.

Yet it is seeing. What we're actually seeing is no thing. Like the cat. But we need the words. Exactly. For the dream to work. Yeah. Correct? That's why the... We have them. That's why the human patterns are unique expressions of us. Animals and birds and things like that through their calls, they can recognize danger or there's hunger or thirst or whatever it is, you know, with the sound. They haven't got labels. They haven't got labels or words on it. We put labels and meaning into the labels. And the meaning is not what it actually is. You can't grasp it with a concept, with any word.

Well, we know the cat probably never makes the reflection that it is. Probably the fallen text of the book doesn't know that it is, because that reflection probably never happens. So it's really just something going on, but the cat doesn't know that for sure. Just like, I don't think we do. It doesn't have a story. When there's something going on, I will attest to, but I won't say anything about awareness, or surfaces, or any of that stuff, because when I'm not thinking about it, I don't ever see it there. Because then I'm just not thinking about nothing. Yeah, but apart from you, everybody else knows they are, even if they don't think.

If they're not thinking. I just think something's going down. Yeah. It's not a void. I like when Bob says there's no void. That intelligence that you were talking about, that we were talking about earlier, that got you out of bed and eventually got you into the toilet. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. And it's that intelligence that we don't trust. When we're an isolated individual, we absolutely don't trust that. I'm running the fucking show. I'm totally running the show. I don't trust anything or anyone. I mean, I might trust my mum to be nice to me and stuff like that, but generally, as a control factor, I'm running the show.

I'm responsible. I mean, we even get taught that. I'm responsible for my actions and what I do and what I say and so on and so forth. Yeah, you're like the being the clown that takes a bath. Yeah. Same thing. Yeah. So imagine a fish. Imagine a fish that's only got eyes on either side of its head. Just eyes. Yeah. Doesn't have the capacity to turn its head around and look at its body. Can't look at its body. So it's just a seeing thing. It's swimming around in the water. So there's literally just seeing. It doesn't know what colour it is. Can you imagine? Like, it can't see itself.

There's no mirror. Can't see itself. Can't see its own body. So there's just this... Did you say it has awareness or not? Well... It's a conscious fish. The conscious fish. It's a sentient being. My point... Yeah. My point is... And I'm just using this as an example. Yeah. I'm just using this as an illustration. Yeah. That same fish has got no idea what it looks like. It's just a seeing thing that's swimming around. All fish is doing is... There's just seeing that's taking place. Can you get your head around that? Yeah, I understand. Okay. It doesn't exist, but you see. There's just seeing. Yeah. There's things happening.

Okay. How does that fish know what other fish to mate with? Can't see itself. Well, I know. It's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. I can swim up to an octopus and start trying to mate with an octopus. Or a dirty big shark. Or a shark or whatever. That is cool. But you generally find that schools of fish and they're all, mind you, just seeing. They can't see their own bodies hang together. How do they know to hang together? How do I know if I'm just seeing that I'm that particular manifestation of a fish? I'm an orange fish and that's ... How do I know that I'm that?

Probably smells good. In other words, how would the individual fish I'm talking about ... How would the individual fish that thinks it's running the show and has got choice and is going to swim here and do this and so on ... How would it know that it was ... That that fish there was its brother, let's say? How would it know? Can't see itself. Like zero can't see itself. How do I know that it's that? Why would it hang around in a school of fish? And that's that intelligence that gets talked about all the time. There's a functioning that happens. And that's just one little example.

It was that that got you out of bed and made you go into piss. That's right. Talking about that, nature, going back to nature, right? I've got the beans growing, right? And the beans, they're the ones that climb, right? So the beans, it's got to the height where the ... What do you call it? A stem or whatever. It got up to this height, say. Here I am, I've got the mesh here. I'm trying to put some to grow on the mesh. Now it'll go back there. After two days, it knew where to go and it started climbing the thing. So there goes the intelligence.

There you go. Where can they ... It hasn't got eyes. It's everywhere. Obviously, it hasn't got eyes to see. It's got mesh there. There's nothing on the other side. But they're all going to that side where the mesh is. So the intelligence, as you say, it's the intelligence that makes it ... It's the ... Go back to that skill of fish. Swimming around. They all move as one. What tells them? Even birds. Even birds, yeah. Flying a flock of birds, they're all wheeled as one. Somebody's saying, well, go this way or go that way, or it's just a spontaneous move. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. True. Absolutely.

And it's intelligence that puts you, the supposed you, in the middle of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the intelligence that wakes you up- That's right. ... in the morning. And it breathes you while you're sleeping. And you could test that. You could test that. Just try staying awake for a while. Try not going to sleep. Wouldn't be able to do that. No. No. Eventually, the intelligence will go, nice try, wacko. And you'd go to sleep. Or, whilst you are asleep, decide, I'm just going to stay asleep. Life's too tough. I'm just going to lie here on the floor and do nothing.

That's the intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. the bed for the rest of my life and just i'm just going to stay asleep you can't do that either you just get awoken like you need to be careful not to mysticize it as a separate thing so i prefer that phrase you used about functional what do you say something to function you used a phrase that it's really just conditioning it's all of that is that yeah the functioning functioning yeah so it's really just the development of everything so instead of making it some mystical thing or i'm not saying people are but i was turning to when i hear those words um or a sense of agency which is the other mystical thing that happens um like my favorite one is somebody was saying about these little creatures going towards swimming towards this wall and when they bump something opens and chemicals come out and make it thick and so then that pushes them away from the wall and then little things close the chemicals go away the water thins down but there's a bit of a current now from the movement so they're angled differently so they're stuck in the water and going forward because that's the conditioning the involvement the whatever um natural unraveling and then they bump the wall again and the things open and the stuff comes out and there's a moving back and then eventually they end up going through the gap and anyone watching will say oh they're intelligent creatures they just worked out there's a gap over there so we come up with these macro stories when on the very very basic level there's just some kind of happening of source you know doing its thing and no idea we have no idea how it's doing it and physicists have no idea like if you just google where they're at they've got like oh there might be some plasma there might be some opposing positive negative charges which don't always cancel out there might be some strings they don't know atoms they haven't found any quarks you know it's all theoretical and um so we can put a mysticalness in that and that um but essentially there's just the sort the source the all that is is doing something we have no idea what we don't know yeah what knows the three states what knows waking sleep and dream pure intelligence they're appearing on that pure intelligence you can have a fourth state if you want i don't want probably when you divide it up you can divide up as many states as you like but i'll try and keep it in the simplicity of simple spotter so the intelligence knows all three states like you know we think we do something go back to the old story the fella in the phone box there was a fella ringing me from the phone box when i was up telling him this stuff he said well that's the case i won't do anything i'll say we're right stay try staying in the phone books i doubt it we go for a piece and uh out of those three states there's only one state which is real the other two are illusion correct no sorry all illusions well every state is illusion well i thought that you've got the dream state you've got this waking state what we call waking then you've got deep sleep state right now as far as i which one is there permanently i thought the deep sleep state is where it's real because you go back to sorry is it here now deep sleep is it here now no no so it is also coming and going it's also changing it can't be real if it is not there permanently it's coming and going every one of the three states yeah the body comes and goes it sleeps and doesn't sleep but the actual whatever is in the body when it's in it's in the yeah if someone taps meaning yes yes so i'd say to me sleep is the disappearance of an appearance yeah the disappearance of an appearance they're not labeling stuff but no but you're still there in sleep because the consciousness is i think it was in the book uh from this was it mirage or something i've read that there's three states two states uh illusionary which is the dreaming state and this state because this was also a dream but when you're actually in deep sleep it's like you've gone back to what you are it's the closest to to the intelligence awkwardness there's no sorry they can't say it's a state no state just be aware that singularity i think we've got some power mind power and all these thought bearing all those things but prove it to yourself breathe out and try and hold your breath and all your heart and soul and mind say i'm going to hold my breath something you'll make you take another breath try it and see how long can you hold it for you can train it for a while i might get a few minutes out of the divers and all the rest of them hmm it's holding my breath the belief we are doers we can't do anything so i can't teach you anything can't tell you anything all i can do is point to what and ask it along to where i'm pointing to because what i'm going to do is a driven character a pattern shape and form which is appearing on and disappearing on that so-called screen which is like a mirror clear and empty is it different states of when people get awakened like you know if you look at mr garata mirage or ramana marahashi or other ones where you know they're pretty what's supposed to be you read them about them they're pretty high in consciousness you would say is it a different state of when you become realized yeah all right yeah i haven't seen anything doing i'm just saying i i don't i'm just asking how i've seen this i got that huh and he's the simplest person you can ever see i don't have to approach him all this same with muktanana he was supposed to have a kundalini and i don't get to have a little different different experiences because they had a documentary on the line in mahashi and he was saying that the age of 17 he became realized or whatever and and then he was going to madi for months without eating or nothing and not really because if he was realized at 780 he would have just gone home and played football or something he'd be like to aaron unchiller and stayed there on the mountain for 10 20 years um being with himself until then he came down and started speaking but you you reckon you you reckon that he was after he was well he stabilized in it he realized that but then he had to stabilize him that um he had to stay with it to i think would that be it bother i'm not sure he had to stay with it he had to stay with that realization you don't need to say anything but you do yeah in the world you carry on like that you know we said there's 25 years that's a real question who is it that becomes enlightened yeah no no individual no one no such thing so the um the four states of liberation that the buddhists talk about teruva and buddhists are just psychic states they're not they're a personal attainment yeah true enlightenment have a look at that enlightenment not acquiring anything or getting anything it's dropping things you're taking off and off leave yourself naked and away hands up on the couch oh we can offer yeah thank you thank you very much thanks