Sailor Bob - Non Duality. Static = Real, Dynamic = Maya 25 10 18

Okay, keep it. How are you going? How are you? Nice and tired. Been with the grandson all day. Okay, we just started. You are already on a Facebook live transmitting. So we may start with the labels, the names. Robin. Diane. Tony. Tony. Moira. Melody. Eric. Cool. Thank you. You can introduce them. Okay. Been lucky for last couple of meetings. Almost didn't have to say a word. And luck has run out. You can't cross your legs. No, you can keep your legs crossed. Just a little bit discrimination towards those with artificial knees. Are you all about the insipidity? No. No. And unfortunately for the rest of his life, that's what doctor said.

Oh, really? Really? Yeah. That's what they tell you. It is. I thought we got a weird fire tucked under his chair while you were talking. Yeah, but there is no such thing as the rest of his life. It's just this moment. So it is only, it is not about remembering for the rest of his life. It's just this moment. It's just about being, paying attention right now. So the whole time you can't move and just leave. Yeah. So. Because it's always now. It's always now. And you always can't look. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I remember when I was actually listening, when I was still seeking and I was listening to some of the inspirational talks or seeking talks and they were all saying that you have to be alert.

You have to try and stay present as much as you can. And if you don't, you're going to lose it. And I was like, I'm not going to lose it. You're going to lose it. And it is just so much work. I was thinking, oh my God, for the rest of my life, I have to notice every breath and I have to be present and alert. That is just so overwhelming. That is just such a hard work. I just have to give up. I mean, I can't even, I can't even conceive of the, of the effort that is needed to stay vigilant. But who is there to stay vigilant?

They never said. But yeah, the way I understood non-duality back then, it was that this individual or the person has to be aware and conscious all the time. And that's totally not what the non-duality is about. If there is any effort, the real effort is totally effortless. If effort happens, it's usually, I would rather call it resistance than the effort. Because if, if there is anyone here who needs to do something, if there is any doer here that needs to do something, it means the natural state is not natural and it's not there yet. It means there is something that is going to start at some point.

It means that it's not here right now. It means it's a passing phenomena. It's an experience. If there is anything at all that is different to this moment, it's not a passing phenomenon. It's an experience. If there is anything that is different to this moment, then it's not worth it. Because it means it is, it means it is in time. If there is any sort of a pleasure or bliss or any imaginary state that is not right here right now, that is not beyond time and space, then it's not worth it, it's not worthy of being chased. Because it means it begins in time and it means it will end in time.

It means it's totally unreliable. And it's not worth it. I mean, of course, by nature, every animal and every, even the flowers turn to the sun, every creature is seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. Every creature is having survival instinct and is protecting its own being, its existence. But this is just natural functioning. The idea that there is something beyond this moment, something else, something bigger or something greater than just this. Aliveness right in this moment is just an idea. So nonjuality is to dispel such an ideas is to show them for what they are ideas, nothing else. So apart from the reality of this moment, this present moment right now, any ideas that things should be different or the state should be different or the I shouldn't be there.

Any ideas. Any ideas are to just be recognized as ideas. And then as ideas, they just come and go. They just show up on the screen and disappear from the screen like clouds. So it's no need to worry about the ideas either. It's just plainly to recognize them. The problem is when the identification with idea happens, when I identify myself as an idea. If I identify myself as the image or as the body, that's when the suffering comes up. But even if that process of identification is actually known in consciousness and it is, there is no problem. Everything that shows up, everything that begins has an end.

Everything that appears disappears. Everything that comes up comes down. And there is one thing that never changes. There is one thing that is not a passing phenomenon. That is not an appearance. That is not a state or an object or a form or any sort of a conceivable or perceivable thing. And that one is what the non-duality is all about. It is coming back to that which never changes. To that that exists in every single moment, in every single situation from the beginning of time. And without the time also. Even when we don't think about the time, which is when the time don't exist because time only exists when we think about it.

So, from the beginning of time and beyond the time, which means there is no thinking about time. There is that never changing basic screen or awareness of presence, which is not a thing. The knowingness is not a thing. It cannot be known. Knowing is an activity of knowing. Being is activity of existing, of existence. So, that basic screen which exists right here, right now, in this moment and in every moment, provided there are other moments because there are not. All the other moments are thoughts, are imaginary. So, this one is what we are coming back to. The non-conceptual awareness. Awareness divided, de-voided from any sort of objects in the awareness.

I mean, if there is an awareness of objects, there is an awareness of objects. But prior to this, there is a space. Sky-like awareness, space-like awareness or cognizing emptiness. Emptiness with the capacity of knowing, self-knowing. And this very being and this very awareness of being or awareness of presence is the true nature. It's what we are. Everything that comes after what we are, the definition of what am I or who am I, is a concept. It's an idea. And it's only there when I think about it. When I don't think about I am the body, I am the mind, what am I? I just am.

There is nothing more to just being, to do, to plain I am-ness. And this I am-ness is the true nature. This is what everyone is looking for. And this cannot be lost. It doesn't need to be found. Because it can't be lost. But for the seeker, for the idea of a seeker, it seems like something that is not even worthy of looking at. Like, come on, that's just nothing. Why would I even want to focus on that? It's there, for granted. It's nothing to look for. So the seeker conceives together in the search, in the seeking, the seeker and what is sought. And what is sought simultaneously arises as a story.

I, the seeker, am the story of being a separate individual, apart from the world. And there, out there in the world, is something that I desire, that I want. Be it a bliss, or be it an understanding, or whatever the imaginary thing is. But those two, the seeker, the image that is desiring something else than this moment, and the very thing that is imagined into existence as something, probably projected by reading scriptures of enlightenment or whatever, those two phenomena are basically happening in the space of natural seeking, functioning, movement. So the seeking is the functioning, the movement of energy. The seeker and the sought, they are just artificial, mind-made division.

Just the same way as the seeker. Because hearing is happening. Nobody does the hearing. The sounds are happening in the space, and the sounds are right away assuming that there is someone who hears them. But there is just hearing. And sounds, and the one who hears them, are actually in the very process of hearing. Like, if we remove the sound, there is no hearing. If we remove the one who seemingly hears the sound, is no hearing. So obviously the sound, the one who hears them, and the whole process, the movement of energy that creates the hearing, are not divided. They totally rely on each other.

They can't exist separately. So there is no hearing without the sound. There is no hearing without the one who hears them. Same with seeing, same with breathing, same with seeking, same with every activity. So basically there is an activity going on. The way non-duality is often presented in the Hindu scripture is about static aspect and the dynamic aspect. Emptiness vibrating dynamically into forms. Emptiness is static or Shiva. When it's moving it appears as Shakti or Maya. It appears as the world. So it is just one when the world is moving. When the world is moving, it is just one when the world is moving. When there is no vibration, plain space.

When there is vibration, it vibrates into hearing or seeking or seeing or breathing or whatever the movement is. So there is just one thing going on, that one essence vibrating and expressing itself in myriads of activities of forms and shapes. And not even forms and shapes because the forming and shaping of the form is constantly moving. So it is not that there is someone who sees in the form that emerges. The seeing is one process. So the whole life is a movement of energy. It is just flowing process of expression of that one essence. And I am that one essence. There is nothing that is separated and apart from that one essence.

It is nothing that is not made of the vibration of that essence. So if you consider yourself to be a body, you are that essence. If you are considering yourself to be a mind or a thought, you still are that essence. And if you recognise yourself to be a background or the knowingness of the mind, of the body, you are still that essence. There is no way out. There is no other thing you could possibly be if everything is just that one essence. So the knowingness, the awareness of presence and the knowingness of the presence is the essence. Is to be realised by simply moving back, withdrawing the investment of attention from the dream and the particularly...

the dream can be appreciated, but particularly from the investment in dreaming a separate entity. So very often search starts and ends with the questioning of who is the one who is knowing. who is the I, who am I. If that I is seen through as just another activity, the movement, then there is nothing else to be done. And that's it, that's the beginning and the end of the search, the beginning and the end of the seeker, and the beginning and the end of the seeking. So now everything is just as it is in this moment. If the questions arise, that's just an activity. If the answer arises, another activity.

It's just activity, natural expression. Add something. Yes, you're saying about time and the now. Very good, you're saying. Well, is there such a thing as now? Can anyone grasp that? You say it now, as soon as you say that, it's changed, it's moved on. And we say now again, you think it's the same now? It's not, it's ever fresh and ever new now. If there was any future, no past or future. So there's your way out. And there's no static point you can grasp and say, this is where it begins, this is where it ends. So just having trouble pausing the thought or understanding that, just look at it, try and grasp this, what's going on in the now?

Are you right in this now? By the time you label it, it's gone. It's gone. It's something, isn't it, that moved on? It's transient. Everything is transient, constantly changing. So here, when I say try and get out of what we call the now, you can't because it's ever fresh and ever new, always and ever changing. And what's the changing? Isn't it a movement? Or in the scriptures they don't call it a movement. They say somewhat of a movement. Somewhat of a movement. Just seemingly. Because this is beginning, it's already ending. But it's constantly transient. The whole manifestation is transient. So where does that leave any of us?

Only when we take the delivery of the believed in entity, the individual, the person, or the pattern, shape and form in which it's expressing or appearing, which we're told in the scriptures, it's Maya, it's illusion. It's a phenomenal manifestation. The phenomena are all there. They're all there. The phenomena is that which appears to be, seemingly appearing, but there's no static point anywhere. Try and find a static point in that body for a start off. Or anywhere else in this manifestation. You see, it's all transient. Nothing static. And they also add to that there is no self nature to anything. There is no personal self. There is only the one self.

It shines as the self. Which hears, sees, tastes, touches and smells as the self. Which is aware as the self. We think of, I've got to become self aware, or self liberated. I'll tell you, it's self shining ever fresh. Presence awareness. I put the term presence awareness because it appears to be in this immediacy. This factual moment. So as I say, not a matter of trying to stay in an hour, or to pause a thought or anything, but to see if you do it. see that you can't latch onto a thought anywhere if you look at it closely. Grab what's going on in your mind right now.

Can you? It's constantly changing. So why not flow? Why not be the river instead of the bucket of water out of the river and let the river take you where it does? And where does that water finish up? Finish it up back in the ocean again. Where did it come from? It came from the ocean. And you think you'll ever get the same drop of water out of the ocean again? It comes down as fresh and new, changing, never the same one. That's what needs to be understood or recognized. There's nothing to be grasped and there's no one to grasp it. Be the transient no-thing.

Hasn't got the time to take any solidity as a thing, though it appears to. And it seems that's a thing. That's subtle and that's seemingly rapid, I suppose you'd say, that it seems solid. But there's no solidity about it. No solidity about it. It's constantly and never fresh. And there you are. You can get into that one, argue with it, fight with it, or tell us your version of it or whatever. Open it up. Hasn't the silence become more evident when there's no sounds going on? Even though the cars are going past, you hear them and you know what it is without lobing it. That's a car, that's a tram, you know.

You've heard it often enough to know the difference. In the immediacy, without putting the old label on. And that's what I say. When you walk down the street like that without labeling anything, but to knowing what everything is, and to see the natural spontaneous function that's going on. Look around the room without putting the label on all these things in this room. You know what everything is. And knowing what it is, you don't need to put a label on. We put the label or the word on. And what does that say? It all begins with the word. In the beginning was the word. And word can be a dialect, a language, whatever you like to call it.

But that word now, you might be, you can think right now. Is it the same one as you thought of 10 minutes ago when we said, stay with the now? It's not the same now. What shape and form has the now got? What pattern has it got? What pattern has it got? It's got seemingly many patterns, shapes, and forms in this room and everywhere else. But what are we told about that? We're told it's an empty form. All forms are emptiness. Emptiness is form. It's the emptiness that's patterned, shaped, and formed in these things. And the form can be nothing other than emptiness. Go on again and again.

Not two things. Various form and formless. The form vibrating into a pattern. Different shape. What's the formless vibrating as? As the no thing? Which one's the real? The form or the formless? Or are they both only appearances? Only seemingly so? They tell you that. Nothing ever happened. No thing ever happened. Have we got it in front of us? What are all the happenings, the appearing, the sounds, the movement, the stillness? The pattern, shape, and form. Shapes and forms. All happening. And that body, which is the fuse of that intelligence energy, is not the same body that you walked into the room with. That's just as transient as everything else.

It's formed of millions of cells. Might be billions of them. I don't know. Or trillions. I don't know. But they say so. And those cells are constantly changing. And you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to tell me that. Go back 5, 10, 15 years or 20 years or more. Have you got the same body as you've got now? It's more apparent there that it's changed. Where in this moment, you won't seemingly notice any change. Yet there are thousands of cells dying out right now. So how can you say you are the body? Which we've taken to believe, I am this body. We put the concept or image that I am.

And they tell you again in the scriptures, we still are to know that I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. I am the body. And that's depicted in the ancient scriptures also as a primary vibration. It was a primary vibration, they say the subtle sound is om, I am. Vibration is a movement of energy. What we call, we put the label on the top. We can't even tell you what energy it is. The physicists and all the other scientists might be able to tell you what it is.

But you know for certain that aren't we evolved kinds of things. Yes actually, but not in this New World, for life. constantly ever fresh vibrating and vibrating in an intelligent way when it's forming cells and changing the pattern shapes and forms implies it's suffused with an intelligence and that's where I don't use the term God because we certainly say that term God we related to some conceptual image we've got when they say God made man in his image and likeness well I think he's in the image of this shape and form this body and likeness of it so we think God some old guy in the sky or something like that the image and likeness it's not it's just a vibrating pattern of energy it's a fuse with intelligence or knowing the knowing the idea gives us something that is active the activity of knowing and the knowingness or the intelligence of it is knowing this that and everything else or just pure knowing see what we've done we form these ideas that we human being take another shape and form and they even knowing that each one is a unique expression we don't take that on we think we've all got the same ideas and images and we fight fight fight fight fight and go to war with one another over these things.

The belief that we are separate, taking on the idea of separation, continue to go along, and that's quite natural that we do because 99.9% of the world, of people in the world, are coming from that point of view. They never questioned it, never looked into it. And keep continuing to put the energy of belief in it, it seems more real. But the realisation is when you look at it and read what's in the scriptures and what's spoken about it and things like that, down through the ages, there's always been some that have pointed it out. Instead of following what they're pointing to, we set the so-called pointer up as a saint, saviour, or a sage, or a seer, or a Buddha, or a God, or Jesus, or whatever.

And we set the messenger up and worship the messenger. And the messenger's lost sight of it. Come along to places where you hear this or read about it or something, and innately in each and every one of you, something will move you to move to look at this sort of stuff, to go beyond what we've conditioned belief. Even there's a so-called physics, science, or in any other way, the investigation goes on, trying to find it. And we forget the simplicity. Non-duality, they say, it's one without a second, not two. And they put that without a second on it because even the idea the second is two, and the numbers go on from there, and divided into the many.

The one seemingly became the many. But it never was, never will be, and never could be anything other than the one. And don't they tell you that I am that one. You are that one. I, you, me, and every other concept you put on it is that. Oneness. Even if you grasp that with the so-called intellect or the mind, stay with it and recognize it, and every path will lead you home. If you like to follow it, it leads you to the next one. If it's not that particular one, it leads you to the next one, wherever you've got to go. And where does it take you to?

Where's the home? That which you never left. You never left it. It's always been you, me, this, that, and the other, all the one essence, and the wondrous thing, the one essence, is that you're not alone. The wondrous intelligence suffusing every particle enables the vibrations in all the different pattern shapes and forms. As they say in the scriptures, from Brahma to a clump of grass, and every insect and everything else, is that essence. And what do we mean by essence? Like a aroma of a smell or a scent of something, scent of a flower or something is the essence of it. Nothing's solid or substantial.

You realize that's what you are. You're not the seeming solid, substantial body, mind, entity. Which of those cells that are dying? If there wasn't more life essence than what's in those particular cells that are enabling other cells to come about and take their place, how long would you last then? Now we say it's hard, but it's the simplest thing in the world. And we say it's hard because we keep repeating the old habit pattern of trying to find the answer in the mind. Trying to make the seeming isolated me whole or complete. And if it was never separate, we can try as hard as we'd like.

And we probably have, a lot of us, over the years, tried it many, many times. Why haven't you got there? Why? What's stopping you? Wouldn't it dawn you, well maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction. I've searched in the mind, I've searched in all the books, and gone to all the teachers, and done everything, always looking in the mind. And what is this mind? Is there such a thing as mind? Can I show anybody my mind? Can you show anybody your mind? And when you look at it, there's no such thing as mind, apart from a thought. And which particular thought is mine? We take it to be that I thought, but is it I mind?

It's closer to it than what it is in saying my mind. I mind. And I, I mind. I matter. But it's not that thought. A thought or a word didn't start with you until you're about two, two and a half years old when you learn to reason. The animals have got no words. They make sounds, which can be translated by other animals when they know a particular sound. This one's danger, this one's fear. This one's a sign whether it's food, and all these different ways. Birds, animals, and all these things make sounds. We've gone a bit further because we put meaning on the words, and that's very useful.

Gotta understand with this, that the mind is not the enemy. It's a very useful tool. And you know that in all the inventions, maths, and everything else we do. It's a very useful tool, but when it tells me that I'm this separate entity, I'm this person, I'm this individual, and I'm not good enough or I'm fearful, that's when it becomes self-destructive. Because the belief that you're separate grows and grows and grows. Becomes harder to recognize and see through. And we beat ourselves up continually with the word, with the concept, with the idea. And that beating up takes on in the form of suffering, fear, anger, depression, guilt, shame, remorse, jealousy, envy.

All these mental conceptual things are suffering. Difference between pain and suffering. Pain is a sign that all is not well with the body. Do something about it. And that can be very painful, excruciatingly so. But then the opportunities are there to do something about it, and we generally do. We'll try to, or it'll get us in the end, and it'll get that bad, or that intense, that you can become unconscious with it. The mind needs to be, you know, you're taken out of it. An unconscious. But the psychological suffering, we carry it for days, weeks, years. What somebody did to me when I was a little child, and so and so and so and so, blah, blah, blah, what happened to me then?

I'm still carrying it around. It's dead, been long since dead. And your body is healed, it's grown. Like a tree, you put a scar on a tree, you pick up a tree, and what happens? The sap will run over it after a while. It might leave a dead patch there or something for a while, or it might be overgrown again by the sap and the bark and all the rest of it. It's healed. And how many bones and bruises and things like that have healed in that body? And how much of this psychological suffering have you dropped? Or let go of? Or got sick of carrying it around?

There's a couple of good skits on the telly about the, stop, or stop or don't go there. Well, that's just a concept. There's many, many ways that can be seen through. And that's what I say, if I pause a thought, or you see the thought now is changing, and so is every other thought. So you don't really have to pause it, and you can't pause it as a person. But if the thought is seen as now, and you know it is transient, the next thought is not gonna be the same thought that you had a moment ago. You're going to invest in it, you can, but it doesn't have to be that way.

That's what I understood and found out. It doesn't have to be there. And sometimes it might come up still and appear to be that moment. And even though I might try to hang onto it, I can't for very long anymore, worse luck. The further you go along and recognize the less and less interest you show in these things. It doesn't stop life from going on. It doesn't stop that sense of well-being from being seemingly seen in greater clarity. Just like the sun or the sky, when the clouds dissolve or move away in it, the clarity is more, there's more clarity there. It's brighter and cleaner.

So the same is in this body. It acts the same. It acts the same. As the sun and the earth and everything else. Activities are the same. That's why this thing is so easily to trace. It's the one essence of comparing and expressing as anything. It's all this variety and all this diversity. Keep looking into it and seeing. The old scripture saying is know the truth and the truth will set you free. And what is there to be free of? The only thing you need to be free of is the belief that you are a separate entity, you're an individual, you're a person. You are an ego, a conceptual image, you believe that.

And when people like Nisargadatta said, there's nothing can trouble you except in your own imagination. See what he's saying? We are imagining, making these mental images of what I am or what I believe myself to be or what you think of me, what I like or what I don't like and what happened to me years ago and what might happen to me in the future if I'm not careful. All mental images. And the only thing you need to be free of is the belief that you are a separate entity, that you are a conceptual image. There's all your troubling going on right there and then and that.

Are you an image? See it for yourself. I don't know if you have any questions or arguments about that or add to it or whatever. There again. I've got a question. Is knowing and cognising the same thing? Easy. Cognising. And you see so many things. It's a Latin word. We put different labels on it. Yes. But there's the same thing, expression. Mm-hmm. And people, laymen will come out and put some of these scriptural things and put ordinary words on, saying the same thing exactly. And that self-realisation through seeing with naked awareness in that some call it this and some fancy another. Forget all the fancy.

Some call it something else and this mob will call it this. And some call it ordinary awareness. Just this very ordinary garden variety of awareness that's with you right now. Are you unaware? No. If you're not unaware, you must be aware. Do you have to put any labels, shape or form on it? It's the exact thing that's happening right in your now. That aware-ing, if you like to call it that, is going on right now. You don't have to do anything to do it. Or for it not be. Can you do anything to do it? That's the important thing. Can. You're an entity that has any power or any independent nature that can stand on its own.

Don't see anybody jumping up. But it is good to clear that word because I've heard it's a Latin word, cognising. We're using it as cognising emptiness. It means the emptiness with the capacity of knowing. Also when we use recognising, it means knowing again. Like something that is known is known constantly but the attention somewhere kind of gets distorted and it's knowing again. I'm comfortable with either. But now it is a block for some people. Yeah, that's great to bring it up. Especially because most of the misunderstanding is really just the vocabulary and definitions. I got lost in the one I was telling you about. I've heard really violent discussions around people who seem or say that they've got it and they say that suffering doesn't go away.

Buddha was a liar. Just because they equate suffering with pain. While when Bob is using the word suffering it means a resistance to pain. Yes. But yeah, if people define it otherwise, yeah, they can go and crucify Buddha or whatever. Burn the temples. Yeah, so what do we know without the words? Because that's the safeguard. That's the safe ground. There's no argument about that. When we just go back to that sense of presence, awareness of being prior to any concepts. There's nothing to argue. And the beauty of it is that it is an experience that cannot be conveyed, imitated. It cannot be taught. Nobody can learn it.

Nobody can give it. But it can be experienced firsthand. And saying it can be taught and can be experienced is the wrong way to say it because it can't. It is pre-sense, prior to experience. But yet it can't be denied. It's something that is unquestionably, undeniably there all the time. It's known. It's being recognized. And don't forget the great matter is I am that. That's what they're talking about. That being, knowing and loving to me. That's it. We've mouthed that word millions of times. I did. I suppose everybody else has too. Not understanding what it really meant. I am that one without a second. Aren't you?

So there's nothing we have to do to be such a denier, do we? It's already there. And recognizing and taking the stance in that. In its true nature. Not in the conceptual image you've got. I'm Bob and I'm no good and I've had a bad childhood and what I did this to me and that to me and this happened and then what. Take a stance there. We've been in that long enough. So I've got to have the courage to be as nothing. As no thing. Not the vacuum or the void but no thing. And see that the world as it is. It's no thing. And the only pattern, shape and form in this manifestation are things.

And space is no thing. Empty. Can something come from nothing? It all takes place in space. And that's actually a wonderful place to start. I came across to quite a few different ways in Zen, in psychology, in other places where they kind of prove you that you are not the body because if you have the option that your body will be replaced or the personality pattern and memories would be replaced. How, what would you choose to stay you? So most people would say, ah, you know, there is the inner me. There is a personality or something that is more kind of intimate. And the shape and the form of the body which is constantly changing.

But even that is the form in the emptiness. So if, as Bob said just now, have the courage to be as nothing, you are that nothing, that cognizing emptiness. So the body is within you. The personality pattern is within you. The past memories are within you. So none of it is who you are because that are objects in consciousness. Those are things that are known. The personality, very often people equate personality and the ego. They say ego is a personality, therefore nobody can ever get rid of the ego because the personality stays. Well, yes, with that definition every cat and dog have an ego. So enlightenment is nonsense.

If we say that ego is personality, that's right, it stays. The pattern has to be there for the life to express. So in absence of any other pattern, whatever the personality is there is going to be used. Just like a music, like a flute is going to be, this life is going to be playing music for whatever the instrument is available. Another definition of the ego is the one who owns the personality. The one who owns the body. And is there anyone who owns it? Because I haven't found one. And I guess, I bet, nobody who ever tried to find one. Nobody tried to find the one who owns the personality, who owns the memories.

Personality is basically an algorithm. It's something that has been conditioned along the way, behaviour patterns, response patterns, that are completely, one could say, mechanical. They're not mechanical because everything is alive and there is a lot of complexity and variety going on around it. But one could say, to make it easier, the algorithm that is mechanical. It's using the database and coming up with the responses to a multitude of variables moment to moment. But is there anyone who actually owns it? Is there anyone who owns the capacity of seeing? Bob often shows in a spiel that when I grow up I'm that little Johnny. And that little Johnny is a good or bad, is Australian or is whatever.

And now that little Johnny thinks it has the capacity of seeing. It thinks it has the capacity of thinking. It thinks because really the capacity is there, it's a functioning. I have to think to take a credit, to take a possession, to hijack and say this belongs to me. And now this reinforces that me, that centre, that point which everything is later related to. But it isn't really own. There is nobody who owns the seeing. There is nobody who owns the hair growth. And nobody who owns the thinking. And in the absence of that body or entity, there is just the activity. Again, it's just the flow, just the dance, just movement of expression.

That emptiness vibrating into different way of dancing, expressing itself. Looking at itself through different points in consciousness. Experiencing itself. Expressing itself. Nobody needs to be there to relate it or translate it. And even if there is a seeming relating or translating happening, that is another movement. That is just another pattern. And that is to be recognised by no one. By not an entity. It is just a recognition, recognising. Just like seeing recognising. Nobody does it. Nobody owns it. And I guess, yeah, we should invite you to speak, please. You know that you are not doing the seeing, don't you? You know you are not doing the thinking.

That's an advanced group. You are talking about personalities, not conceptions. Understand where that came from. Persona. A mask. A mask. A conceptual image. That mask is not something solid. It's just a conceptual image. We've got made up of concepts, words, ideas. And as I got out of the script in this chapter in his book, I am that. The person is not reality. And the self is not a person. It's an impersonal self. What we relate to the believed in person, we relate it to this conceptual image we've got about ourselves, the mask. A mask of concepts. Which covers the truth of what we are. Transience implies time.

And we know time doesn't exist. We use a lot of pointers. But, you know, at what point, at what point do we actually say there is actually no such thing as transience? Well, what is it? What is time? There is no time. It's spontaneous. It's all spontaneous, isn't it? Purely spontaneous, isn't it? Transience implies comparing. Transience implies comparing. a state with another state in conceptual time. And I've been sitting here pondering just on this path of searching. Whether, you know, even using that terminology It almost feels like a disservice to say that there's transience. You know, and I know that it's only a me or the illusory me that could possibly grab a hold of that concept or that idea and go, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get transience.

But to me, it just solidifies and keeps that me present with the whole transience thing. Any word you use will do the same thing. Yeah, yeah, look, I understand. And I was also pondering that and aware of that too, you know, but we talk about time here a lot and, you know, does time actually exist? Is it a thing, you know, and we said it's... We talk about the body-mind a lot too. Yeah. We've had a lot of things a lot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you got a little bit too technical, I guess, because technically you're absolutely 100% right. If there is no time, there is no transience, everything is absolute.

Absolutely static and unchanging. Change comes only when you include the time. But if you want to go to the technical details, that's true. But what is the personal experience? What is the experience of life? You're looking at the sky and you stop the time and the clouds are still moving, even if you don't think about it, even if you don't introduce time or you don't compare it with the moment before. Even without thinking, there is a movement going on. And of course, we can't completely exclude mind because it's totally impossible not to... You see, like to actually uncondition the way we are seeing things and we are interpreting things with the comparison with the past.

This is the activity of the mind. It can't completely be deselected unless you fall asleep or you're on drugs or something. That is... It's not practical. I mean, technically you're totally right, but practically, technically, you're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. Transience is a wonderful, wonderful pointer because it deselects what is ever-changing from what is never-changing. Like, how easy is it to see the thoughts are changing, the body is changing? For the technical seekers, I agree with you. Don't even go there. Yeah, but I just think... I don't know. I'm just starting to think of later that actually it helps keep people stuck.

Because... And even in that... In that description you just gave, Kat, you know, that it... You know, on one hand, we say non-duality, and then on the other hand, we say, yeah, but, you know, we kind of need it, you know? And... You don't need time. No, you don't need time. I know, but even looking up at the sky... Yeah. And just watching clouds go by. Mm-hmm. Yeah? Yeah. Without a concept, without time, without the presence of a mirror, without the presence of an illusory me, that seeming movement of the clouds moving, that it seemingly moves. Yes. The reality is it's always just present. And it's only the mind that kicks in and says, that's moving.

Yeah. Or that's transient. Yeah. That seems to be coming and going. Mm-hmm. But in an absolute sense, it's always, always absolutely present. It's not... It only appears to move. Yeah. Well, there must be some memory, like persistence in your experience to produce that effect. Like, otherwise, it would just be... You know? Like, and that can't be a mental thing, can it? It must be... Look, I mean, it can't be mind. Well, it's... Like, it's in the processing in the lump there somewhere, but... Well, it's certainly mind that creates time. And it's certainly mind that creates transience. And it's certainly mind that creates movement. Or... And the whole world.

Yeah, absolutely. The whole experience and the body also. Yeah. You said you had a breakthrough. The breakthrough is the awakening from the illusion of time. Mm-hmm. That's the breakthrough. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's the breakthrough. Yeah. And it seems, it seems... Well... It seems... We're saying there's no time here. Yeah. Mm-hmm. All the time is over. I know, I know, I know. I know. I just... Here's a suggestion. I just... Here's a suggestion. Hold on, hold on. No, I want a suggestion. Okay. Not just yet. No, not yet. Because I want to chat with Bob. No, no. Oh. Um... . . . Look, I... Yes, and I understand that.

But... . . . . We... We talk about... . Don't forget it. . . Transience is based on a comparison. It's completely based on a comparison. Totally. Based on a compar... It has to be. . . Once it was there, now it's there. It's moved. It's transient. You know, if you want to just be really, really super basic about it. But I don't know, you know, like, what is it? What is it that keeps people so stuck? What is it that... Why... Why isn't this seen through more easily with people? And I'm just starting to kind of look at it a little bit. And maybe it is some of the...

And I'm not talking about you at all. Just the language... Well, I'm not. I'm not. Just the language... . I know. Yeah. Just the language... The language that gets used when this is being expressed. The non-dual... The non-duality language that gets used when this is being expressed. So now you're going to explain it without the language. I understand. Without the words. I understand. I understand. Otherwise, we would just... . Otherwise, we would just sit here and say, on. Right? . Nothing would come out. I get that. But just that... You know, look, I think... The other thing you say is you won't find the answer in the mind.

Sure. So... Yeah, yeah. Look, I think it's... I know. I know. And it's just so... Well, then continue arguing. This... I'm not arguing. I'm not arguing. You're trying to describe it. I'm not arguing. I'm discussing something. I'm so not arguing. I'm not arguing. I think you should just experiment. Experiment with that. I mean, if you guide someone and you can... And you think... It may be the transition... It may be the transition. ...that keeps them stuck, try and walk them out and see if it helps. Yeah, look, I'm not saying let's stop talking about transience. I'm not. Not at all. Because... I've got an answer.

You want to hear it? Because... Not just yet. Because... Because... I know what you're saying to bed right now. Because... I'll tell you. Because language is dualistic. I understand that. Well... I totally understand. I just don't think enough is talked about in relation to the absolute... ...presence. There's lots talked about transience and this and the mind and so on and so forth. But not much is really talked about the absolute presence. And to do that, you'd have to kind of talk about time and dismantle that. You would have to completely dismantle the concept of time, which would include transience. So I'm not saying that transience or time should be eliminated from the communication at all.

I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. It's all part of it. And I get that. Yes. But there's got to be something further than just it's all transience. You don't exist. It doesn't matter. Blah, blah, blah. What is the thing that's further than it? Hey? What is the thing that's further than it? There's got to be something further. What is it? Just what I was just saying. I can tell you. Just what I was just saying. I can tell you right now. The... I think it's fine to say on one hand, it's fine to say on the other hand, it's fine to say on the other hand.

On one hand, everything is transient. I think that's fine to say that. But I think it's also just as important to say on the other hand, there is just nothing but absolute presence. That was my answer. And it doesn't shift and it doesn't change and it just... And you say it all the time and I say it. It's just total spontaneity all the time. It's just constantly spontaneous. And in this... And in that, there is no transience and there is no time and so on. They're all dualistic concepts and you can open your mouth, you've got to speak to it. Sure, sure. I'm not being critical.

I'm so not being critical. I'm not. I just... What was your suggestion? I want to clarify a little bit for my help. Is that, for a start, that checklist you gave, like that's never affected me so transient I don't stick with because I don't need the checklist. I know I'm not thinking about it. Like, oh, something else is going on. I know the difference between a pause and not pausing. When it... What really helped me is the second one, you know, the... There's really no boundary here. There's just no boundary to what's going on right now. You described it better, but it was that the...

The what's really going on, you know. Here's transience. It might help you or it might be this eternal checklist thing. I don't understand because I don't have a problem with it. I just go around it. The second one you said has been useful many times. been useful many times. How do you describe it? I can't describe it as well right now. You know, when you're not thinking about it, there is no such thing as anything that can transit, you know, that's just here. So there's no beginning, end to it, it's just here and transits doesn't exist. That has helped me many times. The first one, I'm just not hung up with that other thing because you're either not thinking about it or something else is going, actually, you know, is appearing to happen.

Put them both together, put them both together, you know. I think it's all people that it's transient, but it depends at the end, you've got to experience it. I just think that the whole transient notion, I think if people aren't careful, people that are listening aren't careful, or it's not explained. If you understand correctly, that people will actually start to believe that things are transient. Can you, I know I've been, when you say transient, do you mean that how things are always changing? Yes. Okay. A movement in time. Yeah. A movement in time. And there's no such thing. There's actually no such thing as that.

It's always just absolute. Always absolute. The only thing that creates transience or time is the conceptual thing. Yeah. And the conceptual thing is the dualistic thinking. And you were saying before about, you know, how people don't, you know, but maybe some people got too much storm clouds and it takes a while for them. Yeah. Look, I don't want to sound like I'm being critical, but, you know, I can see that people are trying to find their way out of this. They really are. That's the bottom line, that people are trying to find their way out. And you won't find the answer in a moment. That's right.

I know. But Jesus Christ. Thank you. And we say this and we say that and we say this and then we say that and then we say this and then we say that. And it's a total fucking contradiction. But, Gary, how can you possibly talk about the absolute? How can you possibly talk about that? By at least making sure... As Philip Bosch said... Hold on, hold on. I'm answering the question. ...the very, very... I'm answering the question. ...idea of words. I'm answering the question. By at least being sure that people aren't being sucked into inadvertently the idea that transience is a thing, that it's real.

And I've got an answer for that too if you want to hear it. Across the board, I've often felt there wasn't enough contextualisation. So whenever a first thing is delivered, say, and it's... So in this case and for this reason and that case, for that reason, it sometimes helps you to go back the other way from some direction that you've been going too far in. And because I don't have any actual concrete examples right now, I'm not being able to explain this very well, but you give a very good description of what people can let go of when transience is raised. And it's in many different ones, people chuck up something to reveal something, but they don't sort of say which people need that revealed because they're clinging on too hard to something.

They need that suggestion to reveal something. And this won't apply to the rest of you in the room who have perhaps gone the other direction. If things are contextualised a whole lot more and then... Yeah. ...punch them with it and really none of that is real because the experience is just this. Yeah. To like also completely take the guts out of whatever's been offered as a pointer, I think that could be really effective. Yeah, that's true. It's a real tricky one. It's fantastic that you say it. It's fantastic that you actually, you know, you kind of... Because every pointer has limitation and it's important to highlight the imitation.

Yeah. But the truth of what Tony is saying is also truth. You know, these people and this theoretical situation will spontaneously arise. And when you are guiding someone who can actually get stuck in the transience, you will have the gut feeling how to spontaneously, in the spontaneity of the moment. Well, isn't it all labels, words? And the word's not the real? There's no word in the real? Which label do you want? You can put whatever label you like. As long as you can recognise it's a label, it's not the actuality. Yeah. I think I'm just recognising, or really starting to recognise just how bloody difficult this is to really communicate.

But why do we have to communicate? Well, then we won't sit here and say nothing. Well, we do. Yeah, we do pointers. And I guess people that come here are attracted to it like I was. But, you know, at the end of the day, it happens when it happens. Jane had something to add. Do you remember what you had to say? Yes. Yeah, she remembers. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, look. Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. There's no argument with any of that. I mean, that means so much. It'll make it too hard. Yeah, it's more difficult to hear it than you get it. Just, you can find another way.

No way. I don't think, yeah. Can we give Jane words? Because she's so... Go for Jane. All I was going to say was what I always harp on about. We all get stuck in a pointer that suits us. And I just think the mind is a clunky thing. It goes from past to future. It goes from love to hate. It goes from yesterday to tomorrow. It goes pleasure, pain, desire, fear. You know, it works in the pairs of opposites, you know. And what's that appearing on? What is that appearing on? That clunky thing? That clunky mechanical mind that can only work within its own parameters.

What is it? It's appearing on the absolute presence. And what we're pointing to here is the truth of our own being, you know. And that mind appears upon it. The mind appears upon it. And that mind is only ever going to be clunky. It's only ever going to work in the pairs of opposites. So as Bob said, there's no answer to that. Yeah. There's no answers in the mind. There's never going to be an answer in the mind. There never was, never will be. But it's taking more note of what all that stuff that's going on in the mind appears upon. That's what we're here for, is to, you know, be aware that everything is appearing on that absolute presence.

And so getting caught up in the semantics of, you know, the semantics of how to point and, you know, and, you know, it's just another trap. It's just another trap of the mind. Because as was said before, what is needed will come up spontaneously. And, you know, and the answer will appear. There'll be no one doing it. There'll be no one receiving it. Because it's non-dual presence awareness. Non-dual presence awareness. So, and I think there is no time, definitely. But when you've understood this truth of your own being for some time, it's amazing how the answers arise spontaneously without any effort. For you. And I think without effort, without effort there can be a lot of guessing and telling.

But without effort there can also be checking in truly with the other person in what they are taking on board and what's going on for them. I think that can be severely lacking. And that is just as effortless if that is a habit to, you know, truly get a better insight into what they are holding on to, you know, in what ways. And also that beautiful aspect that is really important. That's Terry brought up. You are right that we are a little bit out of balance. So that's the invitation for you to bring up the balance. I mean, you know, when, and that's natural. That part when you were saying, yes, there is only presence and the movement is totally, totally illusory.

Present is still. And we come back to the stillness. Highlight it as often as you can. Because that will balance out the transience better than actually, eh, theoretical. Yeah. Theoretical situations with seekers who can get stuck. Well, what is the opposite of transience? Isn't it static? Yes. And that's what he is bringing up. And this is very valid and it's very important and it's beautiful. Presence is absolutely static. Yeah. It's absolutely static. Yeah. That's why it becomes all illusion. Yeah, yeah. It's appearing only. Yeah. Yeah, look, I brought it up because I'm kind of like, Jesus, how do we actually, Great. Great. really communicate this?

Like, Jesus. Yeah. He's not going to help you. You can't. You know you want him. I don't know you. You know what, maybe. You can't give people understanding. Maybe by example. You can't. If someone hangs around on a hand here the first night and, you know. Who can't? Who can't? You can't. Who can't? You can't give people. Who can't? Yeah, all right, all right, I know. All right. Sorry, Moira. I forgot what I was saying. Well. By example, you said. By example, yeah. Well, I'm just saying by example. Yes. By example. Yes. When I came here, I didn't hear a word Bob said. Yeah, not at all.

Well. You know, the Peter was going and, but it doesn't matter, you know. Yeah. All the concepts just. Yeah, and this is the beauty of the resonance. People will gravitate to you anyway. Yeah. When you've got that. Yeah. It's just being stuck in time. They ask you. It's just being stuck in time, stuck in mind, and there they are. Yeah. And they're there. Yeah. And they're there. Yeah. And they're there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really what's being pointed at that isn't who we are. Isn't what we are. You know? I don't know. But I know what you mean.

Even learning this, it's not about teaching it necessarily. It's about learning it too. Like some people, some patterns. Like Australia, why wasn't it descentialized. Why wasn't it made clearer, could have been, now when we graph some things a whole lot quicker in terms of oh that's the actual point and now I can see that where's the pointing the sharp. I would have appreciated it just because the way this pattern functions, if it's laid out clearly, I don't fluff around after that and go, okay, now it's experience. Yeah. Yeah. And it was okay too because it took a long time for experience to show up, but it was kind of a little bit like, I kind of wish I'd been given that context six months ago.

Save time. Yeah. It would have happened differently. It doesn't mean anything. Would have saved time. But time doesn't exist. So I might have a big theory about the graduate sophistication of communication that might happen in this planet. I actually followed what you said then, Tony. I must be not as tired as I thought tonight. Yes, it's all about resonating. Tony is already having a beautiful way of expressing it. And there are people who resonate. Tony is quite quick. She's much faster than everybody else. So it's kind of a challenge. But when it happens. And then the doctor comes in, oh, crap, no one's going to understand me.

So then I get all jerking. And I can't remember any crap in details. But here in the appearance, everything is actually a frequency. Everything is like a sound is a certain frequency. Light is a certain frequency. Thought is a certain frequency. And we are constantly transmitting, receiving different frequencies. This is just a dance of frequencies. And they are gravitating naturally towards each other. They are naturally gravitating also for a conflict. There's just a guy. It's just a play. So. But not according to static. I'm asking. I'm asking. Well, what I was thinking. Yeah. What I was actually thinking then. What Kat was talking about that.

I'll be honest. Crap. And that's not your crap. Just that. Just that. It's actually not true. It's actually in actuality. It's not true. It's actually not true. It's all Maya. Absolutely. But we communicate. It's all an illusion. And and and you know, this word, you know, means this. And it's because we've learned that it means this. And it's none of it's actually true. You know, energies and different vibrations. Please. Okay. Okay, we can use that language to be pointing and to be trying to describe and so on, but none of it is actually true. Yeah. None of it. Then who is just- Didn't I tell you at the start?

Correct. Absolutely. Yes. But then who is it, Terry, that desperately wants to communicate this with other people? No idea. No. Absolutely no fucking idea. None. None. No idea. It all happens too quick for me to be claiming ownership of it. No idea. No. Like, no idea. And you know what? That's probably the most honest thing anybody could say on this path. I don't know. It's the closest you could get to telling the bloody truth. I don't actually know. And it doesn't matter. Yeah. And it doesn't matter. You don't know. But you know that you don't know. Yes. Yeah. And that's why I'm all, you know, you're all right with it.

Yeah, I don't know. Yes. And I know that I don't know. That's why I love the name that we had for the group at Pug Road, the I Give Up group. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I just kind of, sometimes I think it kind of moves the conversation. Yeah. I think it kind of moves the conversation about this, moves too far away from the actual, you know. Sometimes when we sit down it's putting me in space. That's very exclusive. It's going to be for the regular people. Exactly right. It's very exclusive to speak like that because isn't everything non-duality? Yeah. So. Including what's coming out of me.

That's what I'm saying. Including what's coming. That's something to really look at, Terry, because it's very devulsive. Some things are okay to speak about, but others are not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what you're saying. No, I'm so not saying that. I'm so not saying that. I'm not. I'm not. I- No, but you do say that. No. No. You just keep saying it. No, no. No, what, I know what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. And I get it. I don't agree with that. Yeah. I find it… Well, look, I – Yeah. Well, that's true as well.

That's my own – No, no, but your, what you're saying is true as well, and so. Yeah. But what's Terry's saying is true. Yeah. And then let me go back to who resonates with who. I mean, this is all absolute crap. Resonance is crap. It is all Maya. Every pattern, every sound, every particle of light, every form is Maya, is illusion. Within the illusion, we resonate with certain frequency and we don't with another frequency. And now, obviously, some resonate with what Terry is saying and some don't. And this is all crap. This is all within the illusion. And Terry has a beautiful role of bringing up the quality of stillness, of silence.

When there is no resonance, there is absolutely no movement. And this is sometimes a little bit less of it in the group. Absolutely. We're not having that much of it in this group because we talk all the time. And bringing up a reminder of stillness when there is no language, when there is no talk, is the way life, not Terry, not me, not anyone else here, life balances itself. I'm actually happy. I invited him a few minutes ago to actually balance out instead of bringing up theoretical situation that he had translated. Balance it out. And he just did. And he did it in a brilliant way, beautiful way.

Like, yes, this is all crap. This is Maya. How about the unmovable stillness underlying it? He said it in a way that some could hear it and some couldn't. And this is exactly... This is exactly what Bob is saying things in the way that some can hear it and some can't. I'm saying the way the same. The thing is, we all innately know what everybody here is trying to say. Why stuck with the words? You know what he's trying to say, even if you don't like the way he speaks it. You know what I'm trying to say. Even you may not like the way I speak it.

Just go into that silence. There's never been anything other than we're dreaming a dream we call the world. Yeah. Yeah. We still think of things in contextualize it. We say, that's crap in relation to... That would just be an easy little thing to add on. You would know how it works. And then everyone would get you. You know. Yeah, look... Hey, I don't... Except some power types. That's crap might just be the thing that cracks them open then. Yeah. Look, I don't know. The contextualization would be lovely, I reckon. Yeah. And it's not... It doesn't matter, absolutely. Yeah. You know, that's given right at the beginning.

I thought it doesn't matter. You know, three or four years ago when I first came across this. It doesn't matter, yeah, never lost that. I just can't help thinking of Shakespeare now, a tall tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying no thing. Everything is valid in the appearance. Everything is valid in the appearance. The appearance itself is not real. People say nothing ever happened, and then one day I got the sense when Gilbert was saying what it meant, or what it could mean, you know, I said, why did they just like to say that in the first place? Why did they just sit there saying mysteriously nothing ever happened?

They are reflecting a true experience, yeah, but they could have reflected it with a little more information. You know, it would have been nice. You might have keyed in through the air. Well, what does it mean then? Well, I forget what exactly I was relating to. I think it was in relation to a person, but I forget what it actually... It keys in a bit differently every time. But I suppose when you're sitting there and there is no bound to any... There's no bound to anything. There's no transience, then yeah, nothing has ever happened or is ever happening. It's probably a little more accurate actually.

Yeah, there's just no reflection before this time and after this time. So there's only this time. Always. And this time is like an indefinite this time. Always. Always. And so nothing ever changed. There was no change. So that's a happening. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That's what I'm trying to say. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. I switched off the assessment. It's popped in for a moment to see. It's funny, you know, you come here and all, I don't know, everything just drops away. So if you ask me what Terrence said, I can't even remember. No, no, no. Thank you. That's really perfect. I can't remember either actually. And that's just fine.

And that's fantastic because it means you didn't interpret it. Because the interpretation usually gives meaning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm... And also taking stance, you know? If you hear someone speak and within yourself you say, oh, I like it, or I don't like it, or I agree with it, or I don't agree with it, it is all mental activity. If you just blank, if you just open and you let that frequency, it either penetrates or it doesn't, doesn't matter.

either way but if there is no commentary going on or a relating going on then it's uh... it's interesting that it happens more with others here it's very strong a mentor well a last mentor that talks sometimes he had a friend who did a big study and most people lost the memory because a lot less however he had a photographic memory from medical school and he didn't have a head study so he hasn't had a major memory loss and everyone else with a sky study did one thing about that time this time we're pretty fast aren't we? yeah really is the time new? yeah it's only been five minutes early what are you up to?

I'm decocting oh yeah that's cool that's cool gotta heat it up that will be thanks Terry yeah thank you I think the second point is a very oh literally no no no I was saying the reservation of the frequency of sleep and there's no what? so by the way if there is any pointer or anyone who is speaking and there is there is a commentary going on in the head oh no I agree or I disagree or it shouldn't be said this way that's also life that's also that same energy expressing us as a movement you say bullshit now and yes it is all it is an expression it is maya it is a bullshit but within the appearance that is valid and that is a wonderful invitation to actually monitor that resistance if there is someone speaking and I don't like it I disagree I want to prove her wrong or whatever that's a wonderful opportunity to actually again see the content and remember the context remember the stillness if in which if not for that stillness that awareness of presence that movement wouldn't be possible and now the details of the movement are less important than actually recognizing the stillness behind it that's right yeah well said so whether I like what you say I don't like what you say who cares it's a movement and this is proving that very proof of the existence every thought is a proof that they say I think therefore I am the other way around this karthus the other way around I am or I'm thinking therefore I know there is an existence every thought everything one thing about it is no buddha christ or anybody else has ever had a copyright on it forever will and the buddha and christ are the thought in the mind where are they now so say what you like yeah I know you know you're not the doer it comes up yeah but it just kind of came up in me tonight was kind of sitting here and I just kind of went and how do we talk about non-transience yeah cool how go that be talked about or pointed out rather than the transient being pointed out because I think people can latch on to that and go oh yeah okay so everything is transient and yeah that's been my experience because there's day and there's night and they come and they go there's my history and there's my memory and my body's aging and the cells aren't the same cells that I walked in here with.

So it's all transient. And I just think people can get, if, if the opposite isn't talked about or, or, or pointed to, I think it's really easy for people to get stuck in that, in that there is a me and the me is transient and, and it's aware of transience and there's no such thing. Terry, isn't, isn't Yaji just getting too conceptual? This is all very conceptual. It might sound like it. It might sound like it to you. It's only good conceptual when you talk about other people who are not here now. The, the theory, when it becomes theoretical, because your point is really valid.

It's brilliant. Absolutely. When we talk about transience, the only reason why we talk about transience is to, to discern. The false from the truth. Yes. So try, everything that is changing is false. Everything that comes and goes has beginning and an end is false, is Maya. That's why. But if, if anybody will forget why we even bring up the transience, then yes, step up always, but not because some theoretical person in some theoretical future may actually get stuck because that is, that is, that is an explanation, but it's not really that big of a deal. But, but yeah, this is, this is why the transience.

This is when Bob says, how can you know the transience? You can only know it from its opposite. So you can only know the transience because of the stillness underlying it. There is no transience without the stillness. Even transience happens in that space. And absolutely as often as you can bring up why we are even pointing at transience, because if not for the space, it wouldn't be there. And it's never enough to highlight that basic screen, because that's the basic thing. And it's never enough to highlight that basic screen, because that's the basic thing. And it's never enough to highlight that basic screen, because that's the reality.

That's the changeless reality. And if you get stuck on discernment, because I don't tend to so much, you get stuck on discernment, I guess you just bring up, and it's just spontaneous, last time something just happened, and you didn't even know it was going to and you clearly didn't do it. Remember that. Because discernment isn't really required. A lot of the Buddhist teachings go on about transience. I know. And so much that they've lost it, because they don't talk about the... Yeah, yeah. Because they don't talk about the... Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Because I haven't really heard transience brought up in this before. Impermanence. Impermanence.

Oh, impermanence. Yeah. Okay. And that's all that... Yeah. You can spend a whole retreat just on the impermanence. Yeah. But no one ever pointed out what's what. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why they're all stuck. Yeah. Yeah. So we got it all sorted now. I don't know. I don't know. Sorry, everyone. That just... No, it was great. It was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everything has been smoothed out for the next... There's a different element of the same thing now. Yeah. That's right. Yes. Static and dynamic. Absolutely. It's all to be talked about. Really, yeah.

It's what we do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We were going to get through kundalini. We'll probably be somewhere else. It's different. Definitely. Well, they're someone... Same person brought up a study about saying that... Somebody studied all of these people providing awakening. He has some term for it. Thousands of people responded. We found that 5% who went to Buddhism had a genuine awakening. 5% went to... who went to Advaita had a genuine awakening. 5% that became a fundamental Christian had a genuine awakening. A fundamental Christian? Yeah. Who has sent Jesus into their life, then it's funded out to nothing, you know? How many percent can it be?

It's only the one. Yeah. Pretty much saying that it really didn't seem to matter what path you went down. There was a certain group. It's all alive. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Yeah. I saw the light. Yeah. So we started the meeting with the static aspect and dynamic aspect being both the aspect of just the one. So it is the one, just as Bob says. It's one. It's not that there is part that is false and part that is real. It's just static aspect, which we call real, and the dynamic aspect, which we call maya or false. But it's ultimately just one. And that will be it, hey?

Thank you very much. Thank you really very, very much. That was cool. That's five minutes ahead of time. No, it's five minutes past. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.