Sailor Bob - Non duality. Everything is transient. 21 Oct'18

Can you say your names so we know each other? Tony Victor Dave Justin Tony Simon Sully-Veigh Philip Terry Bob You can kick it off. Thank you. Very kind of you. You guys heard the old spell again? Haven't heard it for a while because I've been speaking too much. It is always pretty much the same. How could it be anything else? If we're only talking about the one essence that's patterning, functioning, shaping and forming this manifestation we call a universe or a cosmos or a world. It's always the one. And you can't get any think simpler think simpler than one. But yet it's been divided up into all sorts of concepts, ideas and everything.

And it's been divided up into all sorts of images throughout the word. The labels we put on things. I'd rather they settle down and then have to start again soon. When I say I can't teach you anything and I can't tell you anything recognise that that is actuality. All we do is point toward and ask you to look to where we're pointing to to see for yourself. Hey Go on, how are you? Sure. See for yourself because nobody can ever do it for you. Purely and simply there is nobody. And the other way I put it is a rule I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any mind.

I'm not talking to that body, mind, identity you think yourself to be. I'm talking about that sense of presence the knowing that you are that translates or expresses through the mind as the thought I am. Just to this nothing else. Now that thought I am is just a label we put on that sense of presence. The same what I used to try and describe it same intelligence energy that's patterning, shaping, forming as everything. And that is what expresses through the thinking as the thought I am. Now what's this thought I am? We take it as self we take it to be me but is there such a thing as me?

We put that label on the thought I am representing this pattern you call the body-mind. But don't they call it in Hinduism for instance Sat-Shit Ananda, Nama-Rupa Sat is existence Chit is consciousness Ananda is the love of a being or the stillness, silence which it all appears in. And you can't postulate anything at all it could be outside of that screen of stillness and silence. What would it be in? Everything must be in that. And the other two factors they put on it let's call it five factors are Nama-Rupa Sat-Shit Ananda, Nama-Rupa The Nama meaning name and the Rupa meaning form. Name and form. And they tell you clearly in them that the Nama-Rupa are Maya illusion.

Illusion. Appearance only. And they say it's a phenomenal manifestation. Look up your dictionary look up the word phenomena. You see the word phenomena means that which appears to be that's its definition. So you, me and everything else in this are phenomenal appearances. The trees, the flowers, the earth everything that's appearing in that space and silence. Everything. And that's what we know. We know all the things. But the things don't give us much of a description much of an idea so we put labels or words on the thing. That's a chair, that's a carpet. That is you, that is me. That is a tree, that is the flower.

That is space. They're all things. And all appearing in that space-like awareness the no-thing. Can some thing come from no-thing? You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out. Something cannot come from nothing. So even though they're appearing as things they are still no-thing. You mightn't like that that you are no-thing as far as that body, mind, entity you believe yourself to be the conceptual image. I told you in the Bible in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God the Word was God. We lose sight of that. The Word was God. That's all God is is a Word. But see how many different labels.

They put on that term God. And some of the Hindu scriptures have a thousand names of this there with God. Buddhists have millions of names. All the other things will have different labels. They put on that God. But in the beginning was the Word. All God was in the Word. And have a look at that. If you ask yourself when did I begin? You'll say I began at birth. But can any one of you actually remember your birth? You can't remember your birth. You wouldn't know anything about it if you haven't seen other things coming into the world through eggs, through the womb, through seeds, through every other way.

Since in the beginning was the Word the Word was with God then the Word was God. There was nothing made without Him, without the Word. Nothing made that was made. All things were made by Him by the Word. And isn't that what we've done? How many words were you born with? You weren't born with any words and you don't remember your birth because you had no words. And you don't remember much about life until you learnt words at about the age of two, two and a half. When the capacity of reasoning developed in that form. And that's the capacity these human forms have which is more developed than what it is in other birds, animals and insects.

But they all have that capacity to a certain extent. So at about two, two and a half you've learnt words. And look at that and realise that every word you've ever spoken or likely to speak has been learnt. You weren't born with it. It's been picked up along the way. And you're probably learning new words to this day. Look up your dictionary and you'll find new words. And forgetting old ones. But we've taken the Word to be the real. Taken it to be the thing. We'll have a look and investigate that and see if it is. Can you drink the Word? Can you swim in the Word?

Will you drown in it? Can you wash in it? You can't. And what you're drinking you're not drinking the Word. You're drinking the liquid the two gases or whatever they were chemicals that formed oxygen, hydrogen that formed that liquid water. The same with the word fire. Does it burn your mouth if you speak it? Can you heat yourself with it? Can you cook with it? So when you look at this I or me what is it? Well you've got a conceptual image. I and you put labels on it. It's me Bob the Australian the good fellow or the not so good the one that's had a bad childhood the one that's been abused the one that's not happy or depressed or having a bad trot.

All these words we've added onto that I that word I I am You can't do much with the I am so we add on words concepts, ideas and images and form a conceptual image about ourselves. And this is the image we call the reference point the self centre or the ego. All different names for the one thing. And look at it everything you learn from it is always referred or related to that I or me and it always implies there's a core or centre in the image in this beingness that's what I am. Reference point self centre and it is the ego. Because we put all these other labels on I'm Bob the Australian the good fellow blah blah blah that is a conceptual image I've got about myself which I call the ego.

And everything becomes relative to that ego to that reference point. That's all all our problems are problems of relationship. All problems not just a male female relationship you're having a bad time with all relationships relative to. And we've got this believing entity that's relating to all these other concepts which is not separate from them it's not apart from them but it's taken itself to be. And relationship is duality me and the other. And aren't all these ancient texts and scriptures they get loaded with a lot of other garbage pointing to the non-duality of everything. The one God if you like to call it that or the one essence that's patterning, shaping and forming and expressing as everything.

But we're not we take the separate entity and just think there's more than one. And so what do we do from that divided image me. We think I'll go out and follow some of those scriptures read them meditate on them do this practice and that practice and I will become enlightened or realised or liberated. And don't you realise that becoming you've moved away from being Sat Chit Ananda is being knowing and loving to be. So becoming is a seeming movement away from being a future implying a future time. So there is no such thing as becoming it's only the being. And that's where we get into the problem because when we go on on this search we might search five, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty years and somewhere or other you don't seem to get anywhere.

You might meditate do this practice some hit on it naturally and pretty evidently do this practice and do this other repeat this mantra and do other things and it doesn't happen and it won't happen because it can't happen you can't make something that is fictitious doesn't exist into something that we're going to become in the whole. There is no separation or division in it at all. Never has been never could be or never will be. But it's the idea of separation that's the cause of all our problems me and the other me and the not me. Looking in all this direction you never found the answer might not just dawn on you we're not idiots we're not dull or stupid intelligent people.

I've been doing this mantra consciously and I've been reading this meditation consciously and earnestly and sincerely all this time think I'm getting close but I've never found the answer might not just dawn on you maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction simple as that where are you looking you're looking in the mind to find the answer in the mind when the mind is just an image a conceptual image show me a mind if you think there's a mind you say my mind but what are you referring to? A group of concepts you've got based on past events experiences and conditioning a dead image and that's what you're referring to a dead image and that's what you're referring to that's all that mind or thinking is conceptualising think in words thoughts, ideas, images the word's not the real is the image real?

look at those reflections in the mirror they're all images in the mirror are they real? you can't say they're not there but go up to the mirror and try and grab a reflection out of it you can't say they are there so when you're looking maybe you're looking in the wrong direction wouldn't you ask yourself well what direction can I look in? because every direction I look in will always be in the mind and he's saying the answer's not in the mind is he right or is he wrong? well where would I look then? wouldn't I just pause the thought for a while the mind for a while or try and pause it and you can't do that either but in the earnestness of seeing you try and look what's beyond these thoughts see if you can find a spot or a centre anywhere you can say this is where it all goes and in that stillness and silence which you're trying to reach through your meditation and all the rest of it you might get periods but when it's a me trying to become silent and still it's not going if it happens of itself and it has happened in many cases with all of you with all that taste of it you realise you're on the right track then because things start to fall into place naturally and effortlessly now it doesn't mean to say that we're going to stop thinking thinking is a very useful instrument it's not the enemy but it is the cause of all our problems when it's not understood not recognised for what it is it is the cause and that's all that so-called karma is is cause and effect and you realise that me the belief in the me is the cause of all my psychological problems and the effects are the anxiety the stress, the guilt, the shame, remorse the unhappiness, despair, anger, fear they're the results of the cause me relating to this belief in me and ask yourself this the simple question can there be an effect if it's not being related to a cause well work it out and you'll see work it out for yourself you'll realise there can't be any effect if it's not relating to some cause what are you going to refer it to if you haven't got the seeming stopper or the cause to relate to it it's not going to stay there even what thought can stay there if it's not related to the entity and notice your thoughts they're always moving on there's no thought fixated in your head just the same look out in nature there's no cloud fixated over the sun or in the sky cloud is fixed clouds are constantly moving and have a look at it where are yesterday's thoughts now where are the thoughts you had last year or two or three years ago you can recall them but they're not there unless you recall them and the only reality you're given is when you recall them in this moment because there's no one in this room who can remember what you said a minute ago now unless you're recalling it you've got to bring it back to mind it's all gone and the future you've got to anticipate and imagine what you're going to do that's the only future you've got so they call it this immediacy or this nowness and they'll tell you you've got to try and stay in the now I'll say try and get out of it because there's not there's anyone who's not in this room right now who's not aware of presence right now not the future you can be imagining the future or recalling the past but what is your actual awareness isn't it an awareness right here and right now I am and I don't even have to put that word on it I can't negate it it's natural that's what we're pointing out I can go on forever you don't want to hear me put Kat on for a while she can explain it different ways it's easily explainable when you look into it and recognise it re-cognise the Buddha called it a cognising emptiness not that we are cognising it but the emptiness has that capacity of cognising or another word for cognising is knowing all that knowingness is appearing in the emptiness and he made the statement then that emptiness is form it's that cognising emptiness that's vibrating into all these patterns, shapes and forms you, me and everything else in this manifesto and then he turned around and said look at that he said in the form though it's appearing as though it can be nothing other than the emptiness so emptiness and form are one and the same thing nothingness and you are that okay so he said it all really I mean, yeah if we start from anywhere any pointer that emptiness is form or the silence vibrates into the sound or the space or emptiness vibrates into forms or stillness vibrates into movement then we basically just just bring back the whole manifestation into the one essence so it's that one essence that vibrates into various different forms and shapes so that is where the idea of non-separation comes from because that one essence can only separate itself into different forms seemingly so it is only seemingly it's like waves are not separated from the ocean they seem to be separated from each other but only seemingly because they still they still an expression of the same water so all that we are encountering there in the manifestation including the past and future which are thoughts forms that are whatever the trees, the bodies the subtle sounds like thoughts again or different waves like light waves, sound waves, x-rays or all the other so that basically explains non-duality in a very plain words one without the second this is just one essence that is appearing as everything and that one essence is to be recognized and verified and it can be done experientially like the moment we are not labeling anything in the world we don't label ourselves as the other as separate the experience that we can relate to us personal present experience it would be the experience of being and this is again when when it often gets complicated because some of the pointers will tell you that ah no, me is a fiction me is a phantom it doesn't exist and then the other pointers will tell you that I am is that I am I am is the only truth I am is the light I am is the way I am is the truth like Jesus said so it seems like there is there is a contradiction here because we can only use the words that belong to dualistic mind so what is and what isn't the fiction and of course Bob can give you the answer or I can give you the answer but the easiest way that is always easily verifiable and you can come back to finding the answer for yourself like what is it that never changes that is always there that which I am is a phantom or myth or the bundle of thoughts conceptual image ego and which one is is the primary awareness of presence and then the distinction is pretty easy because it even in the description there is the prescription when I am saying the conceptual image I am already kind of giving away the answer everything that can be thought conceived in the mind and observed as the selected out of the reality as something as a separate object or conceived or perceived as a separate object will be the seemingly so will be the illusion the maya will be the appearance so that will be a phenomena and what is the reality is the underlying base changeless screen and it's not a thing when I say screen it doesn't mean that there is an object there that could be known the screen of awareness is the knowingness we cannot know the knowingness because knowingness is the is the activity the activity of knowing I am knowing about the sounds and I cannot know about my knowing because this is the very activity of what I am so basically the awareness of being awareness of presence or knowing that we are is the base is the I am that when the mind translated it translates it as the I am is the one that cannot be denied and you don't have to believe anyone when they tell you this just try and not be see how successful you are in not being or in not being aware it's just it's not even imaginable it's unthinkable so the awareness of presence or being is completely undeniable it's there always now when I leave the mind that base of the being and go to the head and want to adorn it or want to kind of make it a thing a substance I will say the being I am I am the body mind or I am the whatever the soul or I am whatever that is already a limitation that is already a conceptual image closing down that that infinite space of presence awareness so without the concept like Bob mentioned non-conceptual awareness the awareness without the conceptual limitations that I encapsulate myself in is totally timeless spaceless always here undeniable and it's and it's just no place like home it is something that regardless of what is going on in the in the imagination it is a place that I can always breathe I can always breathe out and rest that's the that's the safe place in which in non-conceptual awareness there is no fear because to experience fear I need the label I need to put whatever the emotion whatever the the movement of energy of vibration is happening in this present moment if I don't go to the head and call it something call it fear or call it anxiety or call it whatever I can have more elaborate stories like what is going to happen if I lose my job that's even more of a story but without any concepts the present sensation present experience experiencing of the aliveness of the being is always there is always here is always is timelessly there there is no time when when we don't really experience it so this is the start point the the whole beautiful world the whole beautiful spiel and the pointers in non-duality they are often taken through the mind and they promise us some sort of an imaginary state which we can achieve that's not what non-duality is really promising but that's how often we can hear it because I used to hear it this way also I used to hear that oh I will at some point liberate myself from the suffering that is never going to happen to me the I that is experiencing the suffering can never ever be liberated it will suffer forever until it dissolves into the suffering because this I is a fiction so how the fiction can achieve enlightenment how a fiction can get liberated from anything or can add anything so that what I was waiting for waiting for liberation from suffering waiting for the state in which I'll be in love constantly in a bliss constantly I what I understood myself to be getting that thing added to myself that is never going to happen that's impossible because that I that I was believing myself this was more kind of an emotional I the I that was vulnerable the I that was fragile the I that was unworthy and was suffering and that I wanted a relief of course endless pleasure like who wouldn't want a pleasure so that's sort of a pull towards desire fulfilling desire having this final dream of enlightenment which is just the quintessence of all pleasures in the world that is all activity in the mind that is all concepts that's a dream that's imagination now to wake up from that imagination is to drop off pause the thought for a moment for a moment, like Bob says, and just rest in this uncontrived singularity of basic simple I am the knowing of presence.

And now from here, see if there is any I, any ego or any image that you could postulate or you could experience without the concepts. Like, is there anyone here who is whatever vulnerable or unworthy, unless I think about it, there may be a vibration going on, like contraction or something. But if I don't have the label for this vibration, I can't even call it unworthiness. I can't. It's just the life expressing itself as the vibration. So if I sit with that vibration without labeling it, the one basic thing that I will notice and that's about everything in the whole appearance is the change. It is still.

It's not going to last. It feels like because that's what the story tells me. It feels like I was experiencing that sort of a contraction and a slight sense of unworthiness for nearly 40 years. But that's not true. If I'm awake moment to moment to whatever the content of experience is, I know it wasn't there all the time. There are moments when when we are just eating food and we taste the food. There are moments when we are looking at the beauty and we are just ah, and there is no construct watching the beauty is just this moment. Beautiful moment or moments when we are in love.

The the experience seeing the content of experience, the frequency of the vibration, the frequency of the emotion is changing all the time. The idea that there is something solid called me or I that is constantly suffering is just a thought in the head. So to wake up from this thought, because ultimately, the I, this this construct made of thoughts will never achieve anything, will never find the peace, will never get the rest, will never find a state of pleasure and liberate themselves. No, we can only we the consciousness, we the life can wake up from that dream of being being this constructed individual or whatever.

So the awakening is basically from the idea of being separate self. That separate self that want something that desire something, the moment waking up from separate desiring pleasure self happens. desires may still show up like, you know, the cuts, they don't have separate sense of separation, the ego, and they still meowing when they want a fresh beef or something. They you know, the functioning is also is including that we are attracted to, to certain colors or certain smells or certain sounds, and we are repulsed from the other. That's the part of the of the makeup of every form every pattern and that's and that's beautiful.

So waking up from the sense of being limited individual to the understanding that life is just presenting a content and on the screen on the screen in which the content happens. So if the content is this type of vibration, labeled in the past as fear, now, just in just being interested in. About whatever the life wants to experience. If the life experience this particular vibration, ah, okay, there's no resistance towards it. If there is no I who wants Nana, this one is bad, I want something more pleasurable. If there is no overlay on on that present moment of the comparison with the past and wanting something else something different.

There is no resistance. The sense of the life. First of all, it gets much, much easier. And the suffering is not called suffering anymore. It's just pleasure pain, but all discomfort even not labeling it that badly. That's just the content is like the content is always vibrating dualistically. Doesn't mean that Bob doesn't experience night, day night pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, but he is not the they are appearing on the screen of awareness. But there is nobody who owns that, that that is my night on my day, my pleasure on my pain. So they just floating through the screen like clouds. And then there is no clinging.

And even if there is a clinging, that clinging is part of the cloud is just another cloud. Like nothing really from this perspective is ever personal. Nothing can really hurt you. When you know that you are just the space in which you allow the world to be as it is. It's not even a process of allowing because there is nobody really to allow it or to deny it or to, or to do anything about it. It's just basically awareness is aware of the knowingness of whatever it is. So this this has to be verified. It cannot be taught. It cannot be imitated. It cannot be emulated.

It has to be experienced, verified. The fact that the image, the conceptual image, the sense of contraction, that we were brought up and conditioned to believe ourselves to be is just a conceptual image is just a thought. It doesn't exist in the absence of thinking. And it is constantly changing because thoughts are changing. So it's not true. It's not a reality. So realizing it's not a reality. You can just see it coming and going as a clouds and not real. be too bothered about it. So that's about it. Do you want to add something? I'll put it on. I'll put it on. Don't put it on, it'll be that long.

Oh, you never know. I'll take it off. Point out how it works. Something comes up and it's generally an old memory or even something new, and you sense you like it. And you want more of this stuff. Realising, like in nature, appears the opposite of constant vibrating. It's day, night, winter, summer, silence, sound, movement, stillness. The good things come up and we want to hang on to the good things, don't we? I like it. Not realising that whether you like it or not, it's going to move on. No matter how much you love them, how much you want to care for them, they're going to move on.

Because the manifestation is transient, constantly changing. Just the same as the body you walked into this room with this morning is not the same body you've got now. There are cells dying out right at this moment. Subtitles by the Amara.org community Not one or two, but thousands of them, and being replaced. And you know that because you know you haven't got the same body you had 20 years ago when you were still saying I am then and believing yourself to be that body of mine. But it's not the same body. Every cell has changed. So something comes up and I like it. We don't want these good things to go.

We want to hang on. We don't want to see the bad. When the bad comes up, we try to... So what do we do? We try to keep it there. So I say not realising the destruction of the body, not realising that it's transient, whether you want to keep it there or not, no matter how much you try, it's going to move on. It's going to change. We don't want it to go, so what do we do? We resist it. We try very hard. It's this image we think we are. All the energy goes into the idea that it's going to alter, modify or correct or change things.

But it doesn't happen. Because don't you realise that any resistance you are in, you are in conflict. You are in conflict with that thing, trying to keep it there. You're in conflict trying to stop it from going. And any conflict you are in makes you unhappy. You don't want to be in conflict. It makes you anxious. It makes you fearful, depressed, guilty. So the conflict is your psychological suffering. What about the other way? Something comes up again and the constant change and you don't like this one. What do we do? All the chatter that's going on that we don't want, we try to get rid of it.

Or all the arguments and all the fear or meeting this one or doing whatever it is that you don't like, you try to get rid of it. Not realising if it's left as it is, it's going to change sooner or later. But again, as we try to hang on to the thing, we try and force this one out. Now, any trying to force it out, you're in resistance again, aren't you? Resisting it. You're not sitting there naturally letting it be. You're resisting it. It's the same as the other way. You're resisting it, trying to keep it there. And again in conflict. Again in uneasiness. So that's all that's going on all the time, is resistance, conflict and disease.

What happens if you haven't got this conceptual image, this ego to relate to? What's going to resist it? What concept, if you haven't got a concept, is going to resist it then? Isn't going to be left as it is. And if you recognise it and look at this thing, knowing full well the cloud doesn't stay in the sky, it's left as it is. And it moves on. And look back on your thoughts and your feelings and emotions and realise left. Even though, while you're resisting, only resistance went on for a certain amount of time, they soon change. Eventually they change. They can be recalled and resisted again.

But leaving it as it is, you're allowing nature to take its course. Right at this moment, the Earth's rolling around the Sun. Who's doing it? Anyone in this room? Or is the Sun doing it itself? Or is the Earth doing it? Just the gravity, the pull of the tide, whatever, the whole of the cosmos is in that. Just the same, who's breathing you right now? Who's beating your heart? Who's growing your fingernails and digesting your food? If you say, I am, you've been, had your minds away from it for a long time, how's it been going on without me doing it? So you see, that's basically all we got, all that's happening.

Relating to this self-centre, the non, the dualistic appearance or idea, is going to be a problem. And all our problems come about from that relationship of duality. But there is absolutely no duality in non-duality, though it appears to be so. And you couldn't discriminate or distinguish anything if it didn't appear to be so. The appearance is necessarily the function, but the belief that it is a fact, that it has some power and independent nature itself, is the problem. And the belief that we're relating to, this me or image, that has some power, mind power or thought power or whatever other power. But realise there is only one power in the universe.

That's the omnipresence, total presence, omnipotence, total power, and omniscience, total intelligence. Seemingly expressing as three things, but they're not three things, three aspects to the one. Just like steam, water and ice, they're three aspects to the one. of H2O. So check these things out and see for yourself. Have anybody got any questions or arguments or what are they going to do? There you go. And there's another thing Bob usually asks at the end. Anybody has questions or arguments? Or tell us your version. Like is there anything that actually completely resonates and strikes home in what he says or what whoever says or even in your own experience?

Because saying it out loud can actually help people and we have few people from around the world who are listening with us. And those people that it is going to help is always just another version of you as life. So yeah, share whatever works with you too because that also reinforces it. There's not many places in the world where non-duality is spoken this way that anyone has a say. And it does really reinforce the understanding. I'm enjoying Bob, what you said about the earth. Who's doing the earth? Who's doing that? Who's doing the sun? And it reminds, it's very much like after hearing you say it for many years, eventually I heard you say, nature doesn't have a centre.

I thought oh my god that's great. But I've never heard it for ten years when you sang it. And yes, who's doing it? Who's doing it? And that's, yeah, it's just a nice. But you know the first, second sentence you said today what was, it couldn't be anything else. And I suppose that's what the person, the person thinks that there's always something else. Something more to discover, to find. That's right, yeah, yeah. I remember Bob said you can't get out of now. Oh yeah, yeah, sure, sure. But. I can't. Stop trying. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big one. And of course that nobody's doing it goes, goes all the way down to everything, doesn't it?

The blood going around our bodies now, our breathing, you know, we never, this power that you were just recently talking about. Yeah, we don't, we don't see it and it's just the one. Yeah. Yeah, that's an important one too. And a hello to Bill, by the way. I've been murmuring. I'm a gooey. Okay, so it's not too bright, okay? When someone's going through, say addiction, and then they're having withdrawals, and there's that real sense that they can't get that pleasure anymore, they can't get the drug anymore, whatever that addiction may be. Yeah. There's a sense of, oh, I'm going to die. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a sense, obviously, of desperation, hopelessness, and who's the sufferer there? Yeah. It's all the same stuff, isn't it? More so. More so, yes. Absolutely. More so, and you want the drug. You want. Yeah. You can't get the drug. Yeah. The concept is that we can't live without it. Yeah, I do. It's the same thing you did. Yeah. Yeah. You can't do anything. You're not the doer. It's the word that we're addicted to. That's the split. It's just word. You know, we talk about non-duality, and we're in a room here with people trying to find out what non-duality is, and it gets pointed at and pointed at and pointed at, you know, what it is and certainly what it isn't.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the split. You know? Yeah. And I love that thing that Bob talks about. In the beginning was the word, and my beginning as a personal entity came into being when I started to learn words. And prior to that there was no split because there was no word. And like seeing that is so important, and it's so goddamn simple. to actually investigate that for oneself. So that you're not sitting in a room like this being hand-fed stuff, which we then take into the head and we lock it away in a certain place and hang on to it as another conceptual idea.

This is really, really simple. So simple. My whole construct as a personal entity, all of it is based on the belief or addiction to word. Who would I be? What would I be without no thoughts? Who would I be without word? It's almost like a fearful state comes over us. What would I be without a thought? You can investigate that for yourself. The very first word that was thrust on me was my name, Terry. I didn't have any choice in that. And then the rest of the dialogue that gets thrust onto us when we're children growing up. Bob often says you're a good boy or a bad boy, whatever.

But if you really, really investigate it for yourself and try and find this sense of me, what actually is it? And it gets pointed. There's tips and hints. There's tricks all the time. Pause a thought. Not that we can pause a thought, but it's a pointer. If there was no thought, would me be? Would I even exist at all if there was no thought? Now, that's the trick. There would be existence, absolutely, but no me. Without the thought. And it's conditioned into all of us. All of us as we grow up. Yes, Simon. But when the drug addict is having withdrawal, it's happening in his body, the chemical reactions.

He's not even thinking of his thoughts. His thoughts are crazy. There's no his body, Simon. It seems that the chemical reactions... But there's no his body, and it's not happening to any body. The suffering seems to be in the body. Yes. What I'm trying to do today, for whatever reason, is make it real simple. It's all about words. So you go back there. Yes. But go back to your supposed self. Where does the self... Labels. Yes. Why do I think I exist? Why do I think that there's a me and another? Why do I think there's me here that suffers from my own thoughts? Why do I think that there's me here that suffers from physical addiction that's going on in the body?

I'm not saying that there's not an action, that there's not a thing that's happening in the body, that there's no person there that it's happening to. It's only when the person takes ownership of that that the conceptual person suffers. And it's purely conceptual. Purely conceptual. Chemical reactions. The person is conceptual. If you didn't have any resistance towards the chemical reaction, like let's say if there wasn't a reaction coming from the withdrawal syndrome or something, but it was basically just broken legs or something. There is also pain, there is also chemical reactions in the body. But there is no me who is saying, oh, it shouldn't have happened.

Because there is really, I mean, if there is, there is suffering. But if there isn't, if you look at the animals, how they actually deal with any sort of a situation that would be uncomfortable or even threatening for the body. They actually, if there is pain and it could be, you know, the chemicals could be really uncomfortable. You can have sweats or whatever, you know. I don't really know that much about withdrawal, but I assume that will be a lot of things. But if there is no concept that it should be different, if there is no label that this is really bad, I have to stop it, and if there is no idea that I have to keep struggling, otherwise I will take that cigarette or I would go for that sex or shopping addiction or whatever it is.

See how the majority of the suffering, if not all of it, comes from the idea that there is me who is trying to stay faithful to my decision and trying not to fall for it again, and suffering because how long is that going to take? Am I going to be able to go through it? Why me? Or, you know, all that stuff is really resistance coming from the comparison with the situation with no addiction. It's a mental process on top of the chemical reaction. See, chemical reaction, it is funny, I actually heard the example in a psychology that someone had butterflies in the stomach. When the butterflies in the stomach happened before the important exam, it was labeled as an anxiety.

And it was wired in the brain to see that it's exactly the same chemicals, neurons flashing in that case when there was an exam or something. And of course it was labeled as anxiety, horrible emotion, and it contracted and it created the mental response to the chemical, created incapability of even passing the exam. An exam wasn't passed. And the same reaction, the very same reaction, happened when that person was meeting the girlfriend and getting excited about it. And now, this same butterflies were labeled as excitement. And it was labeled as, oh my God, I can't wait. And of course it enhanced the performance. It kind of made, brought the search of the energy into completely different level.

The reactions in the body are completely impersonal. The brain, the mind, the past history, the conditioning, the patterns, make meaning of it. Now, if you assume the meaning, assign the meaning to that butterflies or to that cortisol running or whatever it is, that it is something wrong and this is something that will last forever and this is something that you can't take anymore, the suffering will be incredible. But if you don't label it as such or you label it as something, oh yeah, gosh, I've been through worse thinking in my life, it's not so bad, it's just a vibration. Or you're just simply curious about it without giving it any meaning whatsoever.

Just see how this body is trying to bring the system back to balance. And it may be uncomfortable because addiction is actually, yeah, it's a challenging situation, of course. But this discomfort is actually a healing in action. Having curiosity about it, you could actually enjoy it. You could feel grateful for the process. You could be curious, just curious, just basically, instead of taking it personally and making it worse and making it a story and fearing that it's going to get worse or it's going to last forever. Just, yeah, just be the screen for it. Be the completely neutral presence in which that process is happening and is allowed to happen.

It's not being suppressed, it's not being medicated, it's not being resisted. It's just welcomed. Yeah. It's not an easy thing, but it's doable. You were talking about when Bob, and he was screaming in pain. Yeah. Now, if he didn't have morphine, how would you have coped, Bob? That pain just, you know, you had morphine and that relieved it. I don't remember screaming. All right. No, the screaming was only when they were shifting him or moving him off the bed. And that screaming was pure intelligence of the body. Because, you know, the pain, when it becomes unbearable, it's saying, watch out! Be careful! Don't break it!

You know? So screaming has function. You mean that morphine? What does the morphine do? It blocks the mind off, doesn't it? Who knows? But when, you know... Didn't it... Just a minute. Let him answer. When you take that drug, what does it do? It reduces pain. Well, yeah, how? I don't know. It blocks the neurons, the receptors. Okay. So the body's getting on all right. The neurons, when it's not coming into the mind, described as pain or this, that, the other. And if you're unconscious for a while, doesn't the body continue to heal? And same with animals. You see, the animals are not given morphine quite often.

And when the pain... I've heard Bob saying it many times. This system is brilliant. Why would you take morphine then? Because it is available. And if it wasn't available, then we would, you know, approach the situation from the moment, like speculating what would be if. It's precisely going back to the mind and analyzing what would happen. The body probably would be unconscious for more time. Who knows? What's your point? Now, that, you know... So we've got all these compounds to be used. And, you know, I'm worried if I get unbearable pain, at some point, I'd, you know, jump off a cliff. There you go. You're now worried about when you get unbearable pain, it might never happen.

You've already gone into the conceptualization and imagining of it. And it will be more horrific than what it would normally be when it comes about because you've got all this preconceived idea. Doesn't suffering can help you realize that you're actually not the suffering? That's a good point. Yeah, expand on it. Yeah, let him expand on it. Well, if you experience suffering, you can't be the suffering. Yeah. You're the knowing of it. Well... I mean, the, you know, the... Yeah, I've experienced that. Yeah. Severe cramps. Other times. Yeah, of course. When I'm a bit tired, I just can't cope with it. There's only two ways to cope with it.

Not resist it. Not resist it and say, it's not me. I can't do anything about this. So you've got to take it. Or the other way is to go right into it and say, what does this pain feel like? What's it like? It won't lessen the... It'll lessen the pain to become bearable, but it won't be unbearable. Well, I've experienced quite a bit of pain. And sometimes, you know, I can see it as, you know, not me. And then it disappears. But other times I try to do that, you know, I whatever, using words. And so with cramps, you can get up on your arm and move.

Yeah. And they usually go. But if that was going to be there, there's nothing, you know, I'd cut my throat or do something if that pain was with me for, you know, a day. But when the pain's like, Bob's hip pain or any sort of intense pain, and there's no way out of it except maybe morphine to lessen it. But he's still, you know, he's still conscious of the pain. So obviously, you're not the pain. Yeah. You know. But sometimes. But the body's in pain and the mind's in pain and tries to resist it. Yeah. Yeah. It makes it worse. It makes the pain worse if you try to resist it.

But that's why I have to let go in that emptiness in that. Well, I've had some pains where I just can't go, you know, still believe. But what Bob said, I think it was crucial. And I hope you will really hear it because I'm going to repeat it. See, because you are, you are walking. You are worried and you don't want to experience pain. You spent your time throughout the day and throughout the meeting right now to imagine what would you do if the pain happens and how to avoid it in future. What happens not only as Bob mentioned that you are actually reinforcing, you're dying of fear right now, like not necessarily.

The moment is totally safe. But other thing is happening, which is even worse. You're strengthening a habit that you, you know, you're creating this neuronal connection that becomes a highway that the neurons will be flashing this way all the time. What about future? What about pain? You basically training yourself to actually be even more anxious and fearful in future and you're not doing it. This is just a habit pattern happening. But if you recognize that habit pattern happening, if you wake up and see, ah, this is the mental activity strengthening the fear for future. Going on. If you actually step back and recognize that habit pattern, it's not going to be that strong anymore.

It's not going to be that unconscious anymore. And it eventually may even break because the fuel that was, you know, the life essence that was going in that pattern now is taken away and it's really here on the screen watching it. So that pattern is actually starved. You don't put fuel on the fire. Why is why you engage in the pattern? Not only that. You engage in the pattern. No. And I see the intention. This is the loving to be. This is self care. Of course you want to be safe. Of course you don't want to pain. Recognize the love underlying that fear. That worry is beautiful.

It's to be totally appreciated. But also the byproduct of it, of that loving thought is that the habit pattern of future and not only strengthening habit pattern missing out on this moment as it is. See, there are sounds going on. In this moment, there are different, you know, facial expressions with people. There is an energy moving here in this moment. There is a lot happening. Your body is actually having some sensations that they are all completely, you know, starved. The attention doesn't even, they are not even noticed because the persistent thought and a fear because of the survival instinct is probably one of the most powerful distractions from what is happening.

So, you know, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that we have to have some distractions from what is from this present moment. So it is actually a beautiful thing to recognize, to recognize the pattern, the pattern that is not only rehearsed and trained and strengthened but also pattern that disables you from being completely fully here now. And again, and the underlying love of the pattern. So, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be asking these questions if they come up. Yeah. But it's just the whole picture, you know, not only what if, but yeah. Imagine a freedom. Freedom is freedom from future, from fear of pain.

Freedom is really about just this, without any sort of destruction from what is. And yes, you will die one day, probably. I mean, the body will, you won't. And yeah, you probably will experience another day, another night, another pleasure, another pain. Yeah, that's part of the game. But imagine completely not fearing it. Not even looking for it. Looking forward either way. No, not very worried. Yeah, cool. Yeah, you don't really feel worried. But yeah. So the essence, so life is, life is, life is living as it is separate to what I tell myself about it. Separate to what I imagine. Your imagination is part of expression of life.

Right. Yeah, but see, on the basic level, there is hearing, seeing, tasting, touching. Yeah. And that's also, all of it is life. Every wave is life. Wave of thinking, a wave of imagination is also life. But it kind of is fascinating. We were talking about it yesterday with Bob just lightly, how beautiful it is that, you know, you look at life and it feels like there is, you know, when Bob is saying about the little child learning words and then learning to imagine, learning to create that conceptual reality for itself. If you look in a broader, like, you know, you put in the history of evolution on Earth, you have the, you know, the creatures that are getting a little bit straightened up and they're getting bigger brain and they start creating, imitating signals and creating thoughts and creating culture and societies and civilizations.

And they completely, you know, like the threshold in which the thinking conceptual mind has to be created. Yeah. And that has, that has, that has appeared in this human creatures and imagination has appeared. From the perspective of life, how much more ways of expression the life, the emptiness, the space has gained in this moment. Now, it not only expresses us the sounds, taste, touch, smells and balance and everything through multitude points in consciousness that can actually witness the dance. But it can also superimpose completely different universe on it. On it. top of it every sort of yours is a different universe it creates different continents countries galaxies everything suddenly so many more ways of expression for that life you are that life so you ask that life express as the body as the imagination as everything so now the thoughts are wonderful from this perspective of course if you completely forget yourself as life and travel on that painful thoughts well that's life too but that may be maybe not very wonderful for a moment I say that because of what happened to me recently where I was just getting consumed completely to a point where I wasn't in touch with anything other than getting imagining getting and dying yeah and losing my mind yeah for me to the my body experienced the sounds that I'm certain to bring me back into like a primary level of the dream don't go to this secondary levels the imaginary levels yes you can always this is the present moment this is the idea of present moment you can only hear the sounds in the present moment you can only taste the tastes and touch the body experience it only here now imagination and that's what the other other part of our conversation was it seems like there was a process you know the baby learning words creating images or the evolution creating humans creating thinking but the time is part of the thoughts is also conceptual that's the beauty of it there is no time in this moment the whole past is being created it's only this moment the million years or aeons of evolution the childhood everything right now so to actually understand thoughts for what they are all you are left is this moment you don't need the time you don't need to learn anything there is no time so going back to this primary layer of the dream because that's still the dream seeing hearing tasting touching smelling that's still a appearance, that's still the waves of the ocean.

But this one, there is no suffering in it. In that basic being, basic experiencing of the present moment, they are of course pleasure, pain and all that stuff, day, night. But there is no suffering, there is no resistance. Suffering only comes from resistance to what is from thinking. Terry was saying about being addicted to the word. Yes. I was just wondering, the word. The word I sometimes feel is conscious suffering, but there is also non-conscious suffering because sometimes I think that the word is simply an evolution of maybe an impulse and maybe a sensation which turns into an emotion and then which turns maybe into a word and a concept.

So I'm just wondering if you could give us a little bit of a picture of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, suffering can be subconscious and unconscious as well. And I think the word is just a manifestation of that suffering. And then the awareness is the layer of maybe the light or the awareness which separates us from that suffering or the realization that we are not that suffering. So I suppose I'm just saying that the word is. It's part of that. Expression. Or that expression. Yeah. And ultimately it's about the light being able to contain and hold the darkness and the two together. Yeah.

So. Yeah. Totally. What you say is totally correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's only the difference sometimes the suffering is used, the definition of the word suffering is used in the way that suffering is conceptualized as a form of self-deception. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all resistance towards the, what's happening. So if you want to use that word in the meaning that you gave it, yeah, you're totally correct. There is no distinction. You know that, yeah, of course there is subconscious, that resistance can completely be beyond words.

And the resistance is not a suffering just yet because you know, even resisting the rain when you crawl down, it's not a suffering yet. Yeah. So it all comes down to how exa- how precisely we define it. find the word. But you get the essence. So that's it. And the word can take us into the silence as well. Absolutely. I mean, that beautiful passage in the Bible, in the beginning as it was in the beginning is now and will be forever. I mean, that's just in a nutshell. It's obvious we're all scared of suffering. Bob, are you a body mind? No. I can imagine I am.

That's imagination. It's imaging in. You're creating mental or conceptual images and taking the images to be real. Imagining suffering and how it's going to affect us and blah, blah, blah. Bingo. Just a big story. Big, big, big, huge story. A huge story. Is it about suffering or is it about the lack of light or the lack of awareness? Awareness. Well, if you are awareness, there's no lack. You're aware. You're aware of suffering. You're aware of love and all the emotions, all the stuff that goes on. You're aware of it. You're aware of the three states. Wake, sleep, dream. You're aware of it. Just stay there.

Don't go off into thoughts and suffering. You're going to suffer. The body, because the body's here, you're going to suffer. Of course you're going to suffer. There's no way out of duality. This is duality. So it will happen. You will suffer. We all suffered. We've all suffered mentally, physically. We've suffered. But once you realize the self, you realize it's actually just another appearance. I mean, painful as it is. Mental suffering is almost as bad. Can I just clarify something too, Tess? When I was saying we're addicted to the light, to the word. Okay. If you're not careful with that, that implies that there's somebody here that's addicted to the word.

But the reality is, and this will sound really strange, but it's truth, is it's word that is addicted to word. Full stop. There is no entity. It's all word. It's all concepts. It's all there's this supposed entity here. Which is total fabrication, absolute fabrication. We take the word to be the real. I exist because I say me is here. Me. And that's just a word and that's just a sound. But we're so conditioned to believe in the stories, the concepts and the word and what word words mean. We don't know anything else. We literally don't know anything else. That's that's, you know, whatever it is that happens here, Kat touched on it, is my whole universe.

It's my whole world, whatever it is that's going on in me, in thought. But you've got a whole world and a whole universe going on in you too. Which is what was helpful when Bob earlier also the pointer about the sun got me as well. It was like, yeah, it got through it. It was like, I don't control, I have nothing to... I mean... I'm notihat... I'm not... That's the same essence. That same source is revolving here. I suppose in some way has me thinking I'm separate from that and doesn't have that flowing openly and freely fully in this manifestation, in this moment. And that's because we take the word to be what I am.

Yeah. And it's simply not. Yeah. It's simply not. It's false. It's false information that we're running. It's a false belief system that we're running on. And the only way that can be seen is to investigate for yourself. Wouldn't matter what I said. And that happens through suffering because it's got to be so attached to those beliefs. So when they're coming up and they're dying, they're dying. So they don't want to die. Yeah. That can be. That can be. That's been my experience very recently. Absolutely. And that can be. That can be part of the process. But it doesn't have to be that either. Yeah. Right.

It's not, you know. Yeah, I'm not saying it has to be. Yeah, yeah. You know, last week we spent a bit of time talking about words. And we've done it again this week. And it's great. Often in these sort of meetings people talk about thoughts, you know, thoughts. But I just found the talk of words a little bit more concrete, a little bit more. It's more direct. Yeah, yeah, more direct. Yeah, it's great. It's a little bit more direct. It's been really enjoyable. I love your thing about the word addicted to word. I want to think about that one for a while. It's word addicted to word.

Yeah. It totally is. It's a chain. It's a chain of words. Yeah. Or another way of looking at it, it's a pattern of thoughts addicted to a pattern of thoughts. Yeah. It is. It totally is. Because there isn't an entity that can either like or dislike thoughts. Or there isn't an entity that's addicted or not addicted to thoughts. The whole entity is based on thoughts or word. Just word. And word is just a sound that we've given a meaning to. But one of you asked something. I'm sorry. Just a little bit of energy. And then the concept is built on that. Sound, word, and then a concept around that.

Somewhere amongst all that, me is. Me is nothing but that. It's just a sound. I don't want to get real direct like thoughts, word. It's just a sound. So Bob, you want to expand on it a little bit? No? Not particularly. Oh. Yeah. We've got to be really vigilant when he is kind of willing to speak because it happens less and less. Today wasn't too bad. But on some meetings, he doesn't really want to speak as much. So if anyone sees that he opens his mouth, just point at him right away. I've used that silly analogy. I've used it a couple of times in the group.

And this is in relation to word or thoughts. If all of a sudden, every single thought that started to manifest in your head was in Chinese. Let's hope you don't speak Chinese, right? But if you didn't, it was just like everything all of a sudden was just in Chinese, including the so-called me. Right? That's supposedly sitting here, that's aware of, oh, everything's now in Chinese. That that says everything now is in Chinese would also be said in Chinese. So where would the me exist if all of a sudden there was just nothing but Chinese language going on in here? Where would your me go? It would be contained.

Completely gone. All you would hear, all that one would be aware of is noise. Because there'd be no understanding of anything. There's not even a me here that still speaks English, right? That's understanding that now all the stuff that's going on in the head is Chinese. Because that me here that supposedly speaks English is also now in Chinese. Where does the me go then? It couldn't be lost on the floor. It'd be pretty hard to get. You know, the closest you can get to it. You know, the closest you can get to it. Yeah. The closest you can get, you know, to the sound. But you wouldn't have that much interest in it.

Because there's the absolutely no meaning zip to it. Yet one would be quite present, quite here, quite now, quite here. And they'd just be, they'd just be that. And eventually, you know, you know, what are you going to have more interest in? Noise that's going on in here that's in Chinese. You've got no idea what it means. You're going to, just going to keep your attention focused on that. Or eventually you're just going to move away from that, ignore that, and just come back to being here, present. What's going to be of more interest? And if you take the metaphor right out of it, just sitting here like with the energies and how that's impacting like sudden loud voices and not going into the thoughts about it.

And so then if those thoughts that are going to come in, you know, you're going to be, you know, you're going to be in a different place. And the thoughts that are going to come in are just converted to be, what's that in energy terms? If that just stays as energy, then you just stay with the energy and the different impacts just there. Yeah. Good point. Yeah, it is. The whole me is based on word, a meaning. We give a sound, a meaning, and then we build a concept around that word. Literally, we've got a big, huge concept around like addiction was mentioned and off we went.

Huge, big story. Everyone's. but just to see what happens from one word addiction whoa up that comes and everyone jumps in and do you know what I mean I mean yeah look that's okay but why not spend the time investigating me I'm not dismissing them often that sounds a bit like it though I know I'm not saying you are but it comes across like that you're involved in that as well I know let her finish just let me finish let me finish I'm not saying you are I'm just saying it comes across like that because of the words used and so the point I'm just making is that yeah often they'll be for different things there'll be certain pointers that will take back to the space or later on come back to the space I'm not saying you don't think that just saying those words can sound a bit all-encompassing and can be taken that way sure I'm not saying you're going to be there I'm just saying that's where it's going to reside well I say they have their own energy so they it's sort of like an energy yeah well they're all energy but what happens to energy if it's not well dissipates yeah dissipate aren't your thoughts part of your body pardon are your thoughts part of your body where are they any thoughts if your thoughts were part of your body your head would be that big you couldn't have room we all locked in the head wouldn't we we've got to be going somewhere I've done all the tracking yeah you need a few words no the body is the vehicle through which thoughts feelings emotions all those things sights sounds and all the rest of the patterns are expressed through in its totality if it didn't form any of these patterns there could be nothing that silent stillness emptiness the space you see but energy stirs like they call Shiva Shakti Shiva static asthec Shakti is consort the dynamic Shakti vibrates or dances in the world appears that's that energy appearing through all the different pattern shapes involved but they're not solid they're not substantial not real but there is an aspect when when he mentions you know there are certain patterns of thinking kind of likely to happen in this body just the same way as behavior pattern like this particular body has certain pattern of behaving towards cats other people have different patterns of thinking or certain predominant thoughts will be around let's say whatever the issues are there but it doesn't mean they kind of reside anywhere it's just roughly the way that the tendency in the in the connections is created the tendencies in the body are part of the of the body so where do they actually come in the whole universe contributes to your response patterns or behavior patterns you could say even the parents of your parents when your great grandmother was in a womb and her mother her mother you know like the whole universe every single event created particular network of responses that is active right now and moment to moment is being updated it's like it's really like alive like you may have particular response towards spiders but it may change if your experiences are changing and the response that you have now it is because of the every nanosecond of your life of the previous experiences and again this is including the time that you have created right now in this moment with all the past all we ever get is a photograph of the tip of the iceberg yeah good point we only see the result it's like a tip of the iceberg yeah a sensation a flashing moment whatever so it's a frequency so not only a photograph of the tip it's the tip objective tip there's that entire history and then this whatever flashes into this experience and this immediacy as recognized yeah I get it this is a facsimile of nothing in particular yeah this is what Nisargadatta was saying that everything is spontaneous which means uncaused it means that everything has infinite amount of causes like there is no one single cause why you just thought this thought and not the other and you didn't think it it just appeared but there is no cause why this moment is the way it is not a single cause but the whole universe multitude of causes so that's why you can't actually trace back the idea of karma or cause and effect or not defined or defined yeah or not defined yeah each one is not definable yeah it's just spontaneous that's why we say it's just spontaneous it's completely untraceable so that's why it's no point worrying about it or speculating or thinking about it it's just yeah as it is easy or I don't know I don't care that's how it is easy but the knowing give us false sense of security oh yeah oh I understand it now I feel safe that's a false very very very false sense of security it's good to wake up from it it's good to find comfort in I don't know I don't care oh it's too complicated don't worry about it this and then I don't have to think about it I don't have to worry about that it's just this because the less of worrying and analyzing and thinking the more of the groundedness in this moment the more attention available for hearing seeing tasting touching smelling you can't go wrong with just less analyzing and I analyzing and that's going too far literally I say when someone they're just referring to is like when someone loses an arm you know there's this phantom feeling that they still have an arm and there's that thought or pattern shaping that is referring to that personality is it important to actually distinguish whether it is a thought or is it a pattern like is it a because it no the best way it would be if you actually give it your own name because Bob can say oh yeah you know in my vocabulary I think it's a thought in my it would be maybe a emotion pattern but it isn't really that important is it it's yeah there is a phenomena nervous system nervous system yeah like you know like if you break say your ankle when it's ten there's still that pattern you're giving credence to duration that's all the so-called time is duration how long does this moment last it's always spontaneous fresh again and then what pain could you have or what can anything give duration how lasting is it unless it's got time when do you begin you can't negate the beingness right now so right now I'm I'm seemingly beginning and even as you're saying that it's ending and a fresh beginning is sort of you go with thought and it stays there or go back and recall it what seemingly recall a memory or something like that yeah that's the beauty is there a past if you don't think about it this actually reveals how the whole past history of evolution and childhood and everything is just a thought in this present moment it's a complex sort of a picture it's not just a single thought it's a you've got the idea of duration going on in these bodies but is it the same body all those cells are dying in it right now and being replaced it's changed constantly transient everything else is transient time is duration and space is volume try and pinpoint the centre to space or the circumference to it this conceptual idea that the world began brilliant as the light years where or how or why so you see everything is beginningless endless it's just this spontaneous actuality in time you can't even show you right now from world out here this three dimensional world out here we see objects in space and so on and when we if we actually pause for a moment and consider the stuff that does seem to go on what's going to go in here but we can't even say that like is there a dimension we're aware of that thoughts appear in if you actually look at it it arises in nothing and it's dimensionless there's no depth in a thought even an image that we may have that comes up there's no depth in it there's no actual there's actually no dimension in it and it arises in nothing and we've just kind of come to accept that and not even really not even really consider it not even really look at that like where is that can we actually place where thoughts are arising from or in you know like we go we say they're happening in my head really like which bit like what part of my head are they happening in when you really look they're not happening in a a head at all but they're they arise out of nothingness and it's dimensionless there's actually no dimension in it and that is our reality that becomes our reality this nothingness this no there's no dimension in it there's no depth there's there's not even real sound in there do you know what I mean isn't it amazing I like this I like this I like this I like this I like this I like this I like this don't know isn't this isn't this is this is this this I do this is this this this there is no I'm trying to my without that you know that's she she God it's she is the thinking sense operates that's how it functions any problem is is when we create a me that's in there as well it's a beautiful instrument the six cents or the the capacity to be able to think and create is magnificent the problem is it creates a me as well and that's when it becomes a problem that's that's when it becomes a problem it's just it's the sixth sense seeing hearing feeling tasting touching thinking it's literally the sixth sense where creation creativity happens but what but what's contained in that and it's kind of been happening for a long time is this it creates an idea or an image or the illusion of a me that's in there as well and all those thoughts everything just pops up spontaneously in that no spaceness you know just keeps happening including the idea of a me it pops up in there as well and some people get to see that what that what's really going on there and some don't and it doesn't at the end of the day doesn't matter it doesn't matter that's just that that's what's happening in this room with these people is we're for whatever reason we're all looking at that that me that also pops up in there and there's a lot of people that aren't and it doesn't matter whether you are or you're not but this is what's happening here you forget yourself so don't forget yourself always realize that you are and of course you'll go off into thoughts and imaginings and but it doesn't take away from the fact that you always are and if you can stay with that you are that feeling or whatever you can put to it then you're in that open space always and you can you know things come and go but you won't be you know taken away by anger or you won't be taken away by different sort of emotions and things so it's a that is always an empty space of awareness and just to be aware all the time but you've got to come back through if you get lost in it which is quite natural we forget ourselves as soon as someone says remember yourself you know it's like forgotten you're off so it's a thing to me anyway to me it's something you have to keep coming back to recognizing as bob would say recognizing and um be with it yeah you'll know that's a quiet empty space that sees everything that's my version of it yeah it's spot on for people that are attracted this it bloody matters intensely for people that aren't attracted to this doesn't matter at all you're not even pondering it not even looking at it and that is okay and this is okay it's all okay just depends how everything or everyone is manifesting it at any given point in time and we come in and bloody matters it totally matters this became my absolute absolute primary attention absolute it and I pushed every everything else aside like everything else aside it mattered that much to me but that's how I was manifesting for it to matter that much there wasn't me and me here that was mattering about it as such that's just how you know it's not individuality yeah you want to say something Bob and what's the opposite of matter spirit spirit the subtle subtle essence and then it solidifies in the matter we talk all the matter or material world yeah we had a conversation a few days ago with a lady from Germany who I had to translate to Polish language and Bob was asking me to translate it doesn't matter but you can't do it in Polish language we just don't have this sort of an idiom but the way I would translate it it means it has no importance so really what we give matter or what we give importance somehow becomes the we become slave of it like whatever is important for it is obviously for the person that it is important like if everything has equal importance or non-importance nothing really sinks nothing really everything is welcomed everything is allowed nothing is resisted but giving importance to something is actually is the key and when Terry mentioned that you know the thoughts are whatever the thoughts are appearing is just okay they're okay you know if they appear it's okay if they don't appear it's okay you could even have an insights into like you know looking from this perspective of that awareness of that sky and appreciate them like see what i mentioned before the thoughts the idea of thoughts of images mental images what a wonderful channel of creativity how what a vast possibility for that ocean to wave into every single thought and image in the every single creature capable of having them now if you are that life and you look at this capacity and you marvel at thoughts you are totally amazed with thoughts because you don't really you know like if you are the sky you marvel at clouds they don't touch you or the sun you are the sun and nothing touches you you just you shine but now if you construct as terry mentioned you get that you know because between the thoughts there is a thought of separate me and that thought of separate me and relating everything to that little separate me now of course the clouds matter sun is in the clouds and you are the sun and you are the sun and you are the sun and you are invisible oh my god there is no pleasure there's no joy there's no meaning there's nonsense there's nothing because i am here i am that little me i believe myself to be and there are clouds of thoughts that are completely making me mad but you are not that me you are the you are the sky you are the sun the clouds wow yummy they're not they're not really touching you unless you believe to be a me and that's why that's where the investigation comes in place that's where it is relevant and the investigation is a thought it has to occur to you to investigate i like that way terry phrased that and the manifestation there is a bit of that the mattering was a great phrase because you two both have you talk about how devotion was such a thing that pushed everything else aside and and eventually that was just part of going getting there as well whereas for me it's another one like it's just that's happening and the other stuff just isn't happening it's happening a whole lot less so it's more like the gentle path but my mattering comes in like how the fuck am i going to survive in this life with you know not being able to receive resources about scared being afraid i'm going to get bopped on the head every second and you know this is the clawing in of a whole bunch of stuff but i think you've mentioned it before it's around survival for me it's not around non-duality or a loss of a self or any of that i don't care about dying to the self none of that is just very neutral relaxed in that area but it's just these different ways that it manifests that measuring manifests but yeah measuring it just happens to be in a bottom rung of the leslie scale for me you know it's just somewhere else and i'm not going through those other rungs i'm pretty damn sure it's just once that's gone it clears the space you know it's nice um yeah it's just it is yeah we uh we run out of time yeah that's uh that's the time to say thank you everyone for contributing and uh please continue and uh contribute more share what's happening with you and uh yeah next time we have tuesdays and thursdays evenings and and sunday morning just like today and there is a possibility also to to book bob one-on-one anytime you want through skype or personally and just hang out with him and have a little bit more of a personalized guidance because especially for those who don't really want to spit out their soul in in the public and for me it was a game changer that one-on-one completely changed the game it ended the game it started again yes so so you can talk to him there is his phone number and skype and uh yeah thank you thank you thanks mo