Sailor Bob - Non Duality - on non conceptual awareness 16 Oct 18

Can you say your names just to? Robin Kathy Shereen Tony Carl Kieran Jazzy Jane Terry Bob Yep Yeah, so I kind of really hope you get me off the hook and start today. Please? No No? No, you start. Oh my God. Hey, I meant you didn't do that. Yeah. Well, Judith sends her love to everyone to start with. Judith has shown up a few times. I think you all saw her. She's up north now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so what we started is really about what is there all the time. It's really nothing to look for. It's only the idea that there is something to find and there is someone that can find that.

And that is the thing that is obscuring the natural state. The state which is self-evident and undeniable. Bob often says that try and deny your own being. Try to deny and deny your own awareness. See if you are unaware or see if you don't exist. You can't do it. You can't even imagine how it is not to be. So that awareness, that knowingness of the awareness, the consciousness of being or whichever way you want to call it. That is the natural state. Now upon that natural state is superimposed an idea that I am something. Not the nothing or the life or the consciousness or awareness, but something separate and away and apart from that pure beingness.

So if I believe myself to be something, be it the body or the mind or a conceptual image or whatever I believe myself to be. If I claim that I know what I am. And I am limited individual. I'm in the world of suffering. Now only conceptually I leave the awareness that I am because in reality it is only a dream. Like dreaming that I am something else. It's not changing that presence awareness or that screen. The screen is still what it is and it's untouched. But because now the belief or the life essence floods that individual, that idea, that imaginary ego. And with that floating, that idea comes the separation, comes the insecurity, comes any sort of sense of limitation.

Because if I'm less than totality, I'm naturally feeling inferior. I'm feeling less. Because I'm not who I am in reality. Now I kind of pretend to be what I think or believe that I am. Because the truth is I cannot know what I am. I know that I am. I know my existence. I know that I am. But what I am, I cannot find out. So saying that I'm the body or individual or I'm a person, that cannot be true. Because how would I know? I would have to be outside of myself to see it. But being outside it would mean that I'm the one who is watching.

So I can't really ever find out who or what I am. Anything that I come up with, that I am person, individual, the mask, the body or the mind or anything. What? By definition it's going to be not true. It's going to be a lie. It's an assumption. It's a wrong assumption. And it's an assumption that basically brings about the suffering. And it's an assumption that needs to be questioned. Because when that idea falls away, what is left is the awareness of being. And that awareness of being, there's nothing wrong with that. On that screen of consciousness, everything comes and goes, appears and disappears. That's the impermanence.

The three impermanence. The things, the thoughts, the ideas, the sounds, the sights, they all just float to that basic screen of presence awareness. So just coming back to that undeniable fact, the only fact of life, the fact, not the belief, is basically coming back to the natural state or to our true nature, to the place beyond the suffering. Okay? And to the place that is so, so close and so intimate and so natural and so obvious and so, it's actually, it's sweet like home. When I'm not thinking about anything, when I'm not projecting myself to be anything or everyone else to be anything, because that always go in package, I'm just staying in what I am.

Okay? Okay. That's home. Urban's going on. That's home. There's no problem. There is no, there's nothing wrong with right now, unless I think about it. There's nothing wrong with anything, unless I have the story about it. So from that place of presence awareness or that relaxing in the natural state, I can see thoughts, sounds, objects, every impermanent thing floating over and just see them for what they are. Instead of taking a thought or the image to be a reality and believing it and making it real by believing it, I just see them passing, coming and going, changing phenomena. My concept of myself was different 20 years ago, was different 40 years ago.

My body was different also. So they're passing phenomena and reality is that which never changes. And what has never changed is the witness or not even the witness because there isn't an object called witness, but the knowingness, the knowing of the image, the knowing of the changing body, the knowing of the passing thoughts or passing objects or passing sounds. That's always there. That's the undeniable fact. The presence of knowing or the consciousness or the awareness of being. Awareness means knowing and being or existence. There's just all words. None of it's really what it is because what it is is a knowledge. And it's not just the presence of consciousness.

There's a cannot even be presented as it because how could that be it if this is everything including what I recognize myself to be so it's not really an it the pointers are to take us beyond concepts this often often we're talking about space like awareness or sky like awareness and it's really about non-conceptual awareness about what is prior to any concepts any descriptions or any ideas we could ever put on it so it is this natural state in which there is nothing wrong he Saga data calls that state in which nothing is wrong anymore he says I can't say how it is or I can't describe it in a positive terms I can only describe it in negative there is nothing wrong anymore so if that when there is nothing wrong there are moments in our and throughout the day when there is nothing wrong because there is no story that anything should be different or the ending is wrong for anything to be wrong there have to be an idea that the wrongness is an idea is a concept without the concept we are resting in that non conceptual awareness non conceptual awareness I cannot define myself what I am because to define myself this is a concept so I'm beyond it to define the problem that's a concept so non conceptual awareness the natural state the undeniable fact of our own existence and awareness of it because we not only are but we are also conscious of the being so and there are not two things there are two aspects of the one thing and this is the thing that is that is base and that is a prerequisite for everything else to happen the way it is pointed in ancient text is that the sky-like awareness is Sashiiva or static aspect and the movement in that space or stillness becomes the object or dynamic aspect Shakti and basically the movement in stillness or the Form in space Form in emptiness is how the whole manifestation came about it is basically made of one essence vibrating in different shapes forms patterns different forms of life whatever we are doing happens in a different way frequencies.

That's all that everything is. But the prerequisite for all that manifestation is that screen, basic screen, which we can't even say it is a thing, but it is the space, the emptiness manifesting itself as the emptiness and forms, as the stillness and silence, as the whole dualities that are playing about. So now part of that duality is me and the other, me and the world. And that duality has to be questioned because it's only conceptual. Without the concept, without the idea that there is me separate of the world, the only awareness, the only experience, experience, think that is going on, is just this moment as it is.

Without the concept, I can't even say I have the body. I can say there are floating sensations there, but even to say sensations, I need the concept. There's just this as it is. The content of seeing, without labeling, without any ideas or concepts on it, is just this as it is. And this is the natural state. Prior to the interpretation that mind puts on it, it is just this as it is. And it's nothing wrong with the interpretation, it's nothing wrong with thinking, it's nothing wrong with anything. There's nothing wrong anymore. So whatever shows up on that, it's not wrong. It's just what is, just as it is.

So, I'm going to ask you to take a few minutes, please. Go on. Oh, your turn. My turn? Yes, I'll hold it. I was away with the birds, isn't I? They're all two-legged, of course. Non-conceptual awareness, or emptiness, space. Anyone can step out of space. Is there anywhere, or anything you could postulate could be outside of space? What would it be in? If space were outside itself, what would it be in? It can't be away from itself. There is only the space, which we call the cognizing. And that space is suffused with the knowing, or the intelligence, energy is another form of knowing. You know.

In the head. In the Hindus, they call it the knowledge, nana. And the one who understands the knowledge, they're a nani. In Christianity, they call it Gnostics. Knowing, or knowledge. So it's not anything new. Different terms and different labels, we get lost into the terms and the labels. Seeing everything as the one essence, patently shaping, forming and appearing as everything. Try and separate yourself from this space right now. Try and get out of space if you can. Try and see if you can negate it. What's the very first thing you see? Is space. It's the closest thing to your eyes. As Tennyson, I think it was, the poet said, it's closer than your breathing.

It's nearer than your hands and feet. It's the closest thing to you. And is that space just outside of that pattern? Or are there large patterns of space inside that pattern you call the body? And when they say it's the one essence appearing, patently shaping and forming as everything, that includes you and me. That's all the world is made up of, the manifesto. Made up of things. You and I are things. And the space, silence and stillness which they're appearing on, is no thing. Because it's got nothing, you can't put a pattern on it, a shape or form on it at all, a beginning to it or an end to it.

And all this manifestation of things appearing in it can something come from nothing. You don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to work that out. All these things we take to be solid, substantial, including you believing you are that body-mind, if you still believe that, or believing the room or anything else, are the no thing. Patterning, shaping and forming. And this is already known in the scriptures. Different scriptures, where different religions are formed around it. And they call it Hinduism, Satchitananda, Nama-rupa, existence, consciousness, bliss, name and form. The name and form are things. The carpet is a thing. The chair is a thing. You are a thing.

I am a thing. Which we put labels on, in deferation from being the one thing appearing as everything. To this chair, to a table, to me, to you, to everybody else. The label. And as I often say, if you went into Myers and wanted a shirt and came out with the label, you wouldn't be too happy. You wouldn't because it's not worth anything but to all the labels. And that's what we're doing with it. That's what we're doing with everything. We're putting labels on it. The word. And the word is not the thing. It's a label on the thing. And have a look at that and see, is the word real?

Call yourself Bill, Harry or some other name, or Joan or Jean or whatever. Are you that word? You're not. You were given that word. It came from your parents or somebody else gave you that word. You can't believe it's you or me. The word water. Is the word water water? It's not. And what is water when you look at breaking it down? It's just a couple of gases coming together. H2O, hydrogen and two parts oxygen. They come together, it becomes a liquid. Before that it's just an energy. And even as a liquid, it's still energy. Cool it down and it can solidify into ice and snow.

It becomes matter. As an essence, you can call it like spirit. And that's what we're thinking of this world. We think this world is made up of spirit. It's a spiritual world. And a material. Matter is material. But the matter, when you see the matter, it's just like congealed spirit, solidified spirit. Like your blood. Cut yourself in the lead. What happens to blood? It'll congeal, settle something soundly solid. But as it stops being blood, and when you recognise it, it's just a matter of trying to go into it and work it out with the mind. See, all thought is not the real. That's what they say, trying to wash away blood with blood.

Ever tried to do that? You can't. More blood will come. And whenever you're bleeding, you try to wash it away with blood itself. Won't go. So we've taken on this idea we are individuals, persons, separate entities. And leave ourselves to be. Because that life energy, that life energy has formed that pattern you call you, and is vibrating through it naturally and effortlessly as you. But can you say it began somewhere in that pattern? Or has the pattern formed around it? When you were in the womb, or when you were just a sperm in a womb, two particular microscopic particles? One from the male aspect, and the other one from the female aspect.

What solidity did that have? You put it under a microscope, it was really nothing. Yet there was a life in it, a life energy. And it knew what to do. It was suffused with an intelligence too, because the sperm knew to swim to the over, to find its way there one way or another. And when it did, it knew what to do to penetrate that over. And when that happened, whatever. It went to work by doubling that cell, doubling it again, and then the essence of the energy in those little tiny cells doubling with the suffusion intelligence began to form a little embryo. All the bones, the sinews, the blood, the brains, everything that came about is formed by that energy.

How can you say it's a body, or me? And that's what we've done. We've taken ourselves to be this body, mind. We call it my body, my mind, knowing full well it's not what you really are. And the other one is my self. And that's what they tell us in the scriptures. It's just that one self appearing as the totality. One self, not a personal self. And all these patterns in this room are believed, some of you have seen through them and realised they're not, believed to be a personal self. An ego. A personal self. Because we've taken on the board and believed it, we never questioned the belief.

We're always questioning what happens. Our parents, school, society and everybody else around us have already believed it without questioning it. Carry on that belief. And we hear these words and we start to believe it ourselves. And we think we are this person which is described with these concepts. And the person is not reality. Persona comes from an ancient word, the mask. The mask is a conceptual image. A dead image at that. Because the image you've got about yourself right now is based on past events, experiences and conditioning. It's not what is right now. What can you say about yourself without an image right now? You can't get any label at all.

But you can't negate it either. You can't say I am not. You cannot say what you are. But you can't say what I'm not. To try and say what you are and try to describe it, you've got to put some of these concepts or words which we've acquired along the way. And realise that every word you've ever spoken has been learnt. What words were you born with? You don't know. Because you had no words. You didn't learn any words until you were about two, two and a half. What happened in the time when there was no word there? You can't even say you began anywhere.

You can't even remember your birth. So you can't say you were born even. But the life essence of life was there growing, patterning, shaping, it's all that thing we call you today. And with it goes all the conditioning and all the words we've picked up. And take the word to be real and the conditioning to be real. And we beat ourselves up with these words. I'm not good enough. I can't do this. I'm fearful. I'm unhappy. I'm depressed. I've had a bad childhood. My parents left me. I was an orphan. All these things. I don't like it. All these concepts which are words. Which relate to disbelieved in entity.

Put labels on it. And we are bound in the word. And seeing it, taking on this personal self, the separable self, we're in bondage to that believed in self. Bondage. We tied ourselves up and formed a conceptual image. Like the little insect or build a cocoon around it. And we locked into that cocoon until it fights its way out. We've got this cocoon of words which we've learnt. Taking it to be real. And it stops the growth. It stops everything else from happening. Because we put the limitations on ourselves. Carry on if you want to. Sometimes none of you would be here if it hadn't been something there that resonated with something along the way somewhere.

It's made you have a look and question it. Because our parents tell us don't go back and have a look and see what you are. Add to yourself. Add to yourself. Become this. Take on more labels. Take on more words. Learn this and learn that and do the other thing. Add on to it. Acquire. Amass. Accumulate. Instead of discarding all the erroneous, all the false, discard it all. But we don't do that. Until you hear something like this and you start to look in a different direction. And you'll know immediately when you start looking in that direction because you'll hear something and resonate with something and it sits well with you.

It sits nice and safe and comforting. And doesn't it take you on any seeming steps we need to go through? It'll take you on to see that. And the ones that seem tough and solid. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? If you're not putting a concept on or no thought on it? How tough is it then? How solid is it? How substantial? And realize the word's never the real. The description is never described. The map is not the territory. All these things point out that you're not what we believe ourselves to be. And even belief is not the actual. It's an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reality.

Look at your beliefs and try and reason them out. See how real, see how true they are if you put them under a little bit of cushion. Like we believe the earth was flat years ago. We believe the sea is blue. We see there's water in the water. And seemingly so, we believe that we are this body-mind, this person. That's why we say the false cannot stand up to investigation. And we don't investigate we continue to believe in it and reinforce that belief by repeating it ourselves and so on. No wonder we stay in bondage. No wonder we suffer. No wonder there's fear, anxiety, stress, despair, hatred and joy and all the rest of it.

Because we've taken on the label or the word and believe it to be real. It's necessary to investigate and see that this is the truth. And that's what we do. And see that the so-called ego, the self-center, the reference point, is a fiction. Actually a fiction. Trying to get rid of my ego, there's nothing there to get rid of it. That's why there's no success. How can you find something that doesn't really exist? It's only seemingly so. It seemingly might be a deep impression in your body somewhere. But when you look at that, it pulls apart too. You go right into it. You can't get rid of it.

Something that doesn't exist. Recognize that. What are you going to do? Aren't you going to give up the search? And you realize, I can search as hard as I like. I'll never find the answer in the mind. I'm told that in the scriptures. The answer is not in the mind. And there is no such thing as peace of mind. We're looking for peace of mind. But there is no such thing as peace of mind. The peace is when the mind is not. That's why the ancients called it the peace that passes all understanding. If it could be understood, it would be peace of mind. But if it's passed all understanding, it means we can't be grasped by the thought, the concept, an idea, or an image.

So the peace is when the mind is not. That's when you need to look at this mind, investigate and see how real it is. Get the idea. Here we pause the thought for a moment. You as the person, which I think you are, can't pause the thought. But if you recognize there might be something there, if you try and look beyond what's there, then you can't do that either. But the looking will come around. And you'll see there's nothing there. And out of habit, it might seemingly arise again for a little while. But if it does arise again, if you've really seen it the first time, it's not going to get the same intensity.

Because once you see something is false, can you truly believe it again? Once you see that there's no blue water in the sea, even though you go down and see it, it's blue all the time, you're going to take it on board, and realize, see it, it's real this time. Or the blueness in the sky, when you're 30,000 feet up in the air in an airplane, how much blueness is in the cavern? The sky in the cavern, space in the cavern, where's the blueness? You look out the window at the port in the cavern, it's always further out, where it appears to be more. Question along these lines, and recognize the false is false.

And when you see the false is false, what's do we left with? It's always vibrating in the pairs of offices, you must be opposite of false is truth. It's true. And they tell you that, written in the texts also, know the truth. And it's the truth that'll set you free. The false can't stand up to investigations, so recognize the truth. And what do you do? You're free of that bondage of belief. So, that'll do. You can go again, we'll give somebody else to talk. Anybody else wants to talk? She feels like she's always talking. I feel bad, I don't want to take up time. As you see, there's nobody who volunteers, so you're actually rescuing the myth.

I've been having this weird, so stupid... Don't judge. It's really weird fear of dying, like that I'm actually going to die soon, like I have this like... Oh, so you love life. Yeah, it's just like this thing that's come up. You don't want to die. As soon as that fear come up, like, oh, you're going to die. I had a dream that I was dying, and then I'm just like... And I know that it might be metaphorical and all that sort of stuff, but it feels like I'm actually going to die, and it's this weird... subconscious... You don't want to die to the sense of self.

Die to the sense of self. Die daily. Yeah. Die to this moment. This body, like this body is going to die. Oh. What's happening in the body now? It stops. It's hard. I keep watching, like when I'm crossing the road, like I'm watching really carefully, because I feel like a car's going to hit me. I know how stupid it is. But it's just like... Carl said something to me the other day that would have put you in it, but as soon as he said it to me, my mind just jumped straight to, like, you're going to die. And it's not the first time this has happened in my life.

Like, when I was in my mid-20s, I went through a phase for like a month where I dreamt seven, eight dreams where I was just going to die, and I was physically dying in all my dreams. And it was like... What's happening right now? Right now? Yeah. Um, I feel like there's anxiety. I feel like racy, a bit racy heart. What's going on in the body? Isn't it integrating? Aren't you breathing? Yeah. Heart beating? I keep checking, yeah. So, you know, you've drawn yourselves to this, and it's just incredible that's happening. Yeah. When the life system goes out of the body, what happens? It starts to disintegrate immediately.

The opposite comes in. Disintegration is breaking down or rotting it. And that'll form millions of enzymes, which are life forms also. And they'll start to rot the body. And out of that, you know, when it breaks down, what happens? The residual might be some minerals or something like that that'll go into the earth, or... And then the earth might be seed waiting. It needs those minerals and a bit of water on it, a bit of sunlight. It might grow a vegetable to survive. It might grow a vegetable to something like that, or a tree. And something will come along and eat that. Yeah. And something will come along and eat the thing that eats that.

And you'll see life is living on life. We take in a personal life and think it's the one and only life. But when you recognise this, life is living constantly in life. It's ever fresh and ever new. So you'll see there's no room for death. Just the same as there's no room for any birth. No person or anything's birth. Patterns appeared. Patterns fall apart and disappear. So you can't say it was born. You can't say you were born. You can't say it's going to die. I wish I could, like... I'm, like, trying to get to that point where I know this. But I can't try my way there.

That's the issue I'm having. And I'm like... It's been like a... I'm not going to cry again. I said, you know, I don't want to be the one who cries every week. But, like, I've had this thing, like, my whole life, where I would get, like, night terrors. And it would come, like, maybe once a month or something for, like, my whole life. Where I would think about... Ever since I was little, I'd think about the universe. And then I'd think about how big the universe was. And then I would think about how much space there was. And then I would think about what happens when I die.

And then I would think, oh, if nothing's after me, if I'm not going to die after death, then I wouldn't know about it. And then I'd be like, that was more scary than no... There's this weird thing about, like, this fear of never knowing I existed. Which is a really strange fear. Like, because you wouldn't know. But that freaks me out. And until we met, like, I couldn't sleep without the TV on because I would have night terrors. And my heart's like... Like, right now, as I'm talking about it, it's like... What did you know before you were born? Yeah. That scares me, though. It scares the me.

Yeah. It scares the me, the belief in the supernatural. You don't think that it was born and it doesn't want to die. But you realise there's never been any death at all, anywhere. Life is continually living on life. And out of life, more life is continually coming. And that's what the Tarkadatta will tell you. There's only life. That's all there is. There's nobody who lives in life. So I guess then the fear then comes from... Because if there's life, then the fear must come from the life as I am now. Like, it has to be from that then. Because if... You are a unique expression of that life.

That's what I meant back there. You are a unique expression of life. There's this feeling of, like, even if life goes on, if it's not this life, then it's somehow not life. Identification with the body. Yeah. So it has to be. Yeah, yeah. But it's just... Yeah. It's like... You see how limiting that is? You've encapsulated yourself in that little pattern you call the body. Encapsulated yourself. Spread it out. Be the life itself. Expand. And another aspect that Bob is often pointing... See, you say you experience the fear of death. How do you know what it is? You have the concept of what it is.

If you actually take the label off, you probably experience a surge of energy. Some sort of... Something like that. But if you would take the concept away from this, that would be just life buzzing, expressing itself. That could be more comforting. Because sometimes we actually know and understand, yeah, I know it's illogical. I know it doesn't make sense. Yes, you know it. You know it. It's really about staying in that space of not knowing. The not knowing is the space in which you take the label off. And there is something going on. There is something... But you don't even label it. You don't know what it is.

If you don't know what it is, you're curious about it. And with that curiosity, you actually just look at it. Ah, yeah, all right. Interesting. And then you're not prejudiced anymore. Because you don't really have any resistance towards it anymore. Because only when you label it as something negative or something fearful, then the curiosity is dead. You totally turn off to it. You want to just stop it. Just stop it. Just stop it. And yeah, that is really funny. I was some years ago with the Zen Sangha, which was doing a version of... I've been with different ones, but that one was doing a version of the Who Am I question.

But they were giving the answer to it right away. Like this was, you know, because that investigation is really to shut down the mind. Because the mind doesn't know the answer to it. But they would shut down the mind right away with I don't know. Who am I? I don't know. Now the mind has nothing to say. It has to put up with I don't know. As you say, the biggest fear is that if you die, the one who wants to know, the mind, will not know. Oh my gosh, that's so freaky. That's so creepy. I want to know. I want to understand. I want to get it.

It is about non-conceptual awareness. It is about not knowing. And finding a security and a relaxing into that. Not only I don't know. I have no desire to know whatsoever. I don't really even want to know. And that feels so blissful. And I can't try my way there. That's the thing. My mind's hanging out. You're right. You can't. Because the one who is trying to find a way to not knowing, that one is the questioner, is the mind. So the mind cannot make themselves disappear. Like Bob said, the ego cannot kill the ego. The blood cannot be washed out of blood. So the one who wants to know cannot stop wanting.

Because the wanting is what it is. But you can still wake up and be aware of that movement of energy. The movement wanting to know. But then look at us again. Go back to when we were having all these problems as a little child. Where's that body now? Gone long since. Where is yesterday now? There's a continuation. Like, you know, we talk about the sense of continuation. That even though that is different, it's just that sense that I'm still that body. That one... Do you know what I mean? Of course you know what I mean. Everyone knows what I mean. What is that? What is that?

Well, I know that's just like memories and stuff. No, that changes all the time. What do you mean? What is it converted again? You just said, what is that sense of continuation? What is that? Because we just identified it's not the body. Because it changes all the time. We also identified it's not thoughts and it's not memories. Because they change all the time too. The awareness, yeah. Well, what is that? Yeah, yeah. The awareness, yeah. Right. No, no, no. It's not the thoughts change all the time. The awareness is always the same. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah, yeah. But... And look, can I just... I just want to quickly say this.

I'm not going to say much tonight. I'll bugger. Kat pointed to something earlier which you missed. I couldn't even hear what Kat was saying. Everything was blurry. It wasn't a criticism. You don't have to defend it. Yeah. I couldn't even see properly. I wasn't being critical. You're latched onto fear. You are. You're just latched onto fear. Yeah. Don't want to die. Sure as hell don't want to die without knowing. And frankly, I'd like to die and continue to keep knowing. Ideally, that'd be great, wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah? So I could still continue to sort of somehow be... It might not be this body, but somehow I could be this body.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. But I at least somehow this soul or consciousness that remains alive and remains present. And Kat touched on it earlier, what you're missing to see, and I'm speaking very dualistic, forgive me. Oh, that's fine. Yeah. That's fine. But it might help, what you're failing to see is the fact that the reason you have so much fear around all that, underneath that is a love to be. Yeah, I understand. and you're missing it. You're so latched onto the fear of dying that you're unaware of why the fear is there in the first place.

And the reason that the fear is there in the first place is because of the love to be. So, and again, I'm speaking dualistically, so what I'm basically saying is, you know, hang around the love a little bit rather than the fear, you know, whilst you're going through this process. It might help. And of any of the pointers that you've heard here, the times that you've come, is there any one particular pointer that has been very useful for you? Is there one that just really stood out to you and thought, oh, I get that? Is there any one that you've heard from anybody in all the times that you've been coming?

Yeah, like the thoughts, you know, your thoughts. Like I'm spontaneously kind of like noticing thoughts and then realising thoughts, having, arguments with thoughts, all that sort of stuff. And who are they having arguments with? Each other. But, yeah, they're having arguments with each other, but what is the primary thought? What is the primary thought that argues with, you know, the other stuff that's going on? So there's your primary thought that you're a separate me, and then there's the argument, or there's the anxiety, or there's the fear, or there's the, you know. So the thought that you're separate, a separate me, or an ego, or what's your name?

Kieran. Kieran, that's right. That you're a Kieran. That's an image that you have about yourself. And that's a thought. And that's the primary thought I'm trying to point at. That's the me. And then all the anxiety, all the fear, all the story about yourself that goes back to when you were little, all the bad dreams you've had, they're all related. And that's the me. And then all the anxiety, all the fear, all the dreams are related to that me. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And is it real? No. Well, this is the thing is I'm under, like I'm getting to the point where I understand that, but it's the fear of obviously annihilation that comes, like that's what I'm.

But that's your mind. Because like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I know. Can I, can I, can I just give an it may be confusing. But it's just an experience I had some years ago when I was with someone who was dying. Yeah. And it was the most present experience. Or one of the most present experiences I've ever had. There was and, and you know I cry in film when someone says goodbye and next minute I'm crying. Like I, I respond very, much so this was someone that I knew that was dying and as they were leaving I it's like the room just can't it was just like the room got brighter and brighter and then then they breathe and then they'd stop breathing and the room got brighter and brighter it was the most I didn't feel any sadness I didn't feel any I just didn't feel anything I was just it was just the most and and the only way I can explain is some people say when a baby's born it just comes straight from God and I just thought if for an example using that terminology this person was going straight to God to that source and then a not or two later I'm in bed sleeping at night and I was afraid of the dark when I was a little girl I had to the light on till I was 23 my dad just couldn't believe how I left home and and and I was lying in bed with my partner and I woke up somewhere in the middle of the night I wasn't asleep at all and I was just thinking how could something like this realize at the time what was happening and I went right home and I heard what I heard and I've been doingά me and I was like upside down and I'm leaving this thing over there for the night and it was dark and I looked at the bedroom door which was open and I thought oh what if that person walked you know what if they ghost would walk through that door now and I thought oh my god in the actual experience of death it was there was no fear there was no but when I thought about it when I attached myself to that fear I was like oh no there might be a ghost there so it was the thinking it was the thinking that was but the experience this experience is not fearful but when I think yeah it's the thinking oh why don't you try it try going yeah let's see try it you might feel really deliberate yeah I've been dreaming like crazy and also the idea that you see to die actually you have to believe that you are real that you are alive if you actually really take on board what Bob is saying that this ego is not real it's like see if that is an actor if that is only a role you are Kiran just for now you are the life and the soul you are the life and the soul essence you are the totality just dressing up as an actor on the scene on of the movie renowned let's imagine that you playing somebody else you playing some other role and then the 1 and a half hour passed on and you take off your costume and you are who you are so is that that role really dead it has never been real if you think god is real as a real separate entity that has to die in order for the life to experience itself really then of course it would be excruciatingly, completely crushingly creepy and freaky.

But what if that's just a cartoon figure drawn on the screen? It doesn't, it is not real. It doesn't have to die. It just has to be recognized for what it is. It's a role. Like see what is real about Kiran. The body? No, we've already seen that it's changing. You had different body 10, 15 years ago. The mind? No, there are thoughts, stream of thoughts that are going. None of it is really you. So what are you? Are you the feeling? Maybe, maybe that fear of dying. Maybe this is who you are, but is it there all the time? No, it's also coming and going.

It's appearing and disappearing. So that's also not who you are. You are the ultimate knowing of the body, of the mind, of the feelings, of the sounds of everything. And is that knowing going to die when you fall asleep and you don't remember there is no memory, but can you even say it was dead? You can't. Because. You're here now. So really, the fear of death requires believe in reality of that thing that you are fear to die. And I really want to let whatever happens happen as well. Yeah. Like a party was good. All right. If you believe you're going to die, just be okay with dying, even if it is a physical death.

And I feel like that's where I need to get to. Yes. And also, yeah, it's just see, I'm laughing. But it's not. I'm laughing. I know. But see, I've been I've been through this process of dying. Actually, this was just my little path. You know, everyone's had it not necessarily. But for me, it wasn't really dying. It was a readiness because the moment I was actually totally, totally committed to finding out the truth of of everything, of of just finding the truth, whatever it means. And I was so ready. I was so committed that I was ready to die for it. Like, even requires me to die.

Yes. Just just just kill me. You know, the longing of the heart, how much you really want to find out how badly you want to find out what's real and what's not real. Would you be even ready to die for it? It's not because it's not going to be necessary. But would you be ready? Because if you are ready, if you drop down to the heart, to that longing for the truth, that commitment towards the truth and finding out how badly do you want it, if you want it above everything else. You will be ready to drop dead and it's not going to be necessary.

And that may not be completely not be resonating with you. Because as Bob says, most of the people that come here, the path of Jnani, of of intellect, of understanding, whilst the commitment on the level of devotion, like, oh, God, I just want it so badly is a devotion path. It may be totally not your thing, but at some point it may actually wake up and it makes it so much easier when you really when you want it. So badly want to come back home. You want to be free from all that. Oh, gosh, just I do anything. I do anything. People sit in meditation for long hours, torture the body.

They starve themselves. They are ascetics. Of course, that desire is given. You don't create it. You can't make yourself have it. But if it wakes up, it could actually give you this necessary earnestness. Nisargadatta called it. Oh, courage. Earnestness. Courage. Something that will just pull through because that's also energy. Everything is just a dance of energy. But then you've got a bundle of tools like, you know, see how it is without the label. Try and die. Few people told you that few different ways, if any of them inspires you. And the question Jane asks, most important, what you already understand innately. Just sit with that.

If you know that just concepts are popping up and arguing, thoughts are just popping up. And arguing one with the other. See how fear is just one of it. It's no different because this is what you already kind of, you know, you've already it comes comes through you. Is it's sunk in. Is that fear of dying anything different than, you know, the other mental noise? Is it may have more physical component. Yeah. It may it may be. It has it's charged. Must have thought about it so much that it has been materialized in like a solid feeling. Yeah, it's so charged. Absolutely. Like I was thinking yesterday, so I was sitting at the tram stop and everyone looks like I was just like everyone's on their way to set up for whatever stage act they're doing.

And everything was like really unreal. And then I had this thought, I was like, Do I even know? Do I want to be doing what I'm doing like this? This whole thing, like being here thinking about looking for truth. And then I was like, but I can't not do it. Do you know? Absolutely. I think it's all bullshit sometimes. And then I'm like, no, because like I said, the first time I was here when I was ten and I walked into the room and everything was alive and it just scared me. Like because whenever I doubt I go back to that. And I'm like, that was real.

There was no time at all. Like everything. The curtains were looking at me. The wall was looking at me like everything. And of course, I was a kid, so I freaked out. But and like I said, I've gone back to that space now through like meditating where it come up and then I freaked out again, but I didn't know they were the same thing until that. Yeah. I just thought that was like a little brain snap I had as a kid. And so I always reference back to that. Like that was an experience I was meant to have. So that whenever I doubt now, I'm like, actually, no, I wasn't searching for anything then and it happened.

And so now that I am searching, it's come up to show me it's the same thing. Like it's not something that everyone's conceptualizing and everyone's bringing into reality by looking for it. They're not tripping out their mind somehow. Yeah. And creating this. Do you know? I mean, because everyone's well, I have the doubt where I'm like, maybe everyone just like trips their minds out and they go to this like. I think it's very much a number of steps on the Enneagram. It's very suspicious. Yeah. You know, it's turned up here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I don't even doubt that. Even with the other. Yeah. And then I go back to that commonly 10 year old kid running into the room looking for a CD and being completely overwhelmed by everything.

Had I like nothing had eyes, but it felt like everything was looking at me. But you've already answered it to yourself. You say even if you have the strong sense, oh, maybe this is all bullshit. You also recognize that you can't be anywhere else. You didn't place yourself here. This is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So if you stay with that recognition, the thinking, the stream of thoughts will be cut off. Yeah. That's where I am. What the heck? I just need to be okay with whatever. I think beautiful. That's what I'm having trouble with. Even with your fear, I'll try not to try. Yes.

Yes. I'm talking to you right away. Have you done that right away? Call it. Yeah. Because Carl told me that words flash up in front of him. It said, what did it say? Because I get it wrong. That freaks me out. Karen has only two weeks and I went, that's it. I'm dying. I'm going to die. And I was like, I'm going to die finally when I want to know the truth about who I am and I'll just die before I find out that was the thought that was coming. And that's brilliant. That's precisely what is going to happen. And unless they do you, the separate entity that you think you are is here, you will not find the truth that entity can't find it.

The entity gets off the way. Truth is clear and obvious. It's been there all the time. But the I, the separate me can never find it. It has to die first. He's all blissed out, finding love and everything. And I'm like, you know, it come up on that day where we didn't talk. And I was like, and then I had the nightmare. That night and I woke up because in the dream, like I was actually in bed and I had this war and then it was like lightning through my body. And I started having a fit in my dream, not in real life. And then I called out to him and he just held on to me.

And then I woke up and I was in the same position in bed. My was like, oh, and I was like, but I didn't want to wake him up. I was like, no, you can't talk to him. So I didn't wake him up. I just freaked out. But I was like, OK, so that's right. Yeah. And you here now, you survived it. As many other moments of. Yeah, yeah, it's just fear thoughts as opposed to predominant other type of thoughts that other types of people might have is very common in Australia. They have the fear and mistrust stuff. Just this is the thing. Other people.

Yeah, that's so true. Other people are obsessed with anger. Yet other people are obsessed with the sexuality. I'm obsessed with knowledge. Yeah, it's a neutral, neutral knowledge. Neutral, neutral, neutral, neutral, neutral knowledge. Yeah, it's just it's just the pattern that he or her in different things will freak you. And I know the feeling is like it is labeled because I know that because I like when I was talking about how I had the sensations arise and it felt like trauma, but there was no story. And so it felt nice. Like it came up and it was like almost like. You know, spontaneously like that. And I was like, oh, and it felt like I was like, oh, that must have a juicy story.

You're lucky to know you always do. It has to have a good story to it. It felt like trauma, but I couldn't attach it to that. Beautiful sounds like, oh, that was good. It was liberating. It's like, you know, like I've got that. Yeah, I'm what would have happened if you had the same experience with fear of dying? No, it's great. Yeah. My heart's racing out. That's interesting. Wonderful. Yeah. You should talk. I should talk. I'm taking up too much time. Thank you. No, you're not taking too much time. Nobody else wants to talk. What do you think about this whole scenario? Not enough. Maybe maybe Bob can add something.

Oh, sorry, Roby. Bob, can you add something, please? Yeah, we can read Bill. Bill, this is saying the me is phantom. There is no me to get this. There is nothing to get the imaginary me can't do anything. Yeah, that's true. Imaginary me can have to die just before the awakening of the answer or the truth is revealed. Just like your greatest fear says, that's exactly how it has to happen. Yeah, it's mine. Thank you, Bill. Say something. Words of wisdom from the star, the messenger on the Triton. Plenty of alzheimer's and something to dive into the fear and explore and lose yourself in the fear and completely experience the fear.

So I've had that. I've had that willingness to do it. Then I feel like I try and bring on fear. I'm like, oh, I'm ready now. Do you know what I mean? And then the the genuine fear never arises because I'm ready. I'm ready for it. So I mean, that's it all doesn't it? Be a copy if you're welcome. And yeah, well, you're smart. So there's been playing has been present through all these experiences. Keep talking about when you attend and all this seemingly experience is spread through time. Who was present through all those experiences and who's present here now in this experience? Well, I am.

That's what I can say. Like, I don't know. Great. Explore that. I am. Explore that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I don't have any answers. As long as you can telling these stories in your mind about a phantom me and a nonexistent entity. That's perfect. Who's been present through everything? It's presence awareness. You've been present all your experiences and you're still present. That's where your attention is. To go. Not on the story. Take the take. Take your attention out of the out of the story. Me. I'm trying to find out what is it that makes me conscious and aware right now of the story. There's an awareness of the story.

There's a knowing can go back into memory and pull out the story and talk. This story is that there's a knowing presence in all of this all of the time. And that's what it's about. And the stories will never, ever end. If you keep feeding the story and imagining that you're an entity, it'll go on like that and never, never, never, ever come to an end. You'll have short, short circuit all of that conceptualizing and go directly to the sense of your own presence and explore that. And then out of that, all the understanding you require will automatically arise. You won't get it by trying to figure it out.

As Bob says, you don't get it by trying to figure it out through thinking. Trying to figure your problems out through thinking won't help. It's impossible because you can't conceptualize non-conceptual awareness. And non-conceptual awareness is what we're pointing at. So at some point in time, you have to get serious and have a close look at what it is. It's allowing all of these experiences to happen and it's present in the world. It's always been present and never not present. And you answered perfectly. You said, I am. And that's what Bob says at the beginning of the meeting. He says, I'm not talking to any person.

I'm talking to that I am, that I am, that you are also. Yeah, I had that moment with Bob. Where it was just Bob talking to Bob. We use spontaneous. But I just, yeah. Good, good, good, good. Not knowing is good. You're aware of the stories. You are aware. There's a certain amount of awareness there. And you are aware of the stories that go on. What Tass is trying to point to right there. See how you're sitting there now and you're nodding your head and you go, yeah. Yeah. That's the story as well. And we miss that. Because it's really close. After all, I'm acknowledging you and I'm nodding and I'm going, yeah, yeah.

I understand. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. I have stories. I understand. No, no, it's OK. It's totally OK. But, you know, we get caught up in, yep, I understand I have stories. But the biggest story we fail to see, and it's usually the last story we fail to see, is the one that's going, yep, I understand I have stories. The one that just said that. That's the, that's, that's appearing on something. And there needs to be an awareness of that as it spontaneously happens. And it does. Does. Communication just comes out of you. Just like thoughts do. It just comes out. There's no you sitting back.

There's no separate you sitting kind of aside going, OK, now I'm going to say this. And then you say it. Do you understand? It just comes up spontaneously. Like thoughts do. They just float through spontaneously. So it's, you know, whilst you're just caught up in observing all the content, you know, or your history, all your experiences, all the things that you've experienced when you were 10 and the curtains were looking at you or whatever, whatever it is, whatever the story is, and there'll be lots of story there, you know. And whilst you're just regurgitating that and doing that and just talking about that and not paying any attention to the one that's talking about that, that's a story that's talking about that.

And we miss that one. And that's the one that needs to be. That's the one that needs to be seen. That's the one I was pointing at. The primary one. Otherwise you'll get. You'll just get caught up forever. You said it before. Loop. Yeah. And you will just loop around and around and around and around and around. When you just said, yep, then you need to be in contact with the awareness that was aware of that. Yep. Coming out of you. Do you understand? It's all appearing on you. Yeah. There's a point is, you know, like I'm doing my best. They're just pointers, you know.

Yeah. I don't see I don't want to ever want to get caught up in the language. I'm about to give it back. But when we were talking, as long as you don't, I won't. That was a joke. No, but when with the thoughts, how said the negative thought that arose and then the positive thought and the positive thought I was talking to you about this is like, yeah, the negative thoughts like here and I was like, oh, I got that. And then we were like, that's not me either. And I thought it was the positive one that got something. You're you're the one that's aware of it just because it's out of focus.

Because it's right here. You're you're aware of both of those positive and negative. That's the duality. That is the duality. And the awareness of that and what Tess is saying is at some point you're going to have to get really, really fucking curious. Whoops, there it goes again. Really curious. Really. Curious about that. This needs to be nice to use the expression turn around instead of looking out at all the content of what's going on in our head or what's going on out there and opinions that we have and so on out there. Turn around. What is it that's aware of all that? And it can't be you or me because you're aware of your me.

Understand? Do you understand? I understand that even conceptually. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. It's hard for me to say yes. I understand when I'm like, oh, who understands? I feel like I'm going to get in trouble. No, come on. It's okay. I do. I do get that it gets subtler and subtler as it goes back. It's like negative thought. Oh, I found the negative thought. And then you go, oh, that one's like, and then that's still not the one. So none of it. And so it just gets closer and closer. I mean, I do sit silently a lot and just try to be silent because it's all happening.

As far as you're concerned, all that stuff is all happening to someone. And you can't try to be silent. You are the silence and the mind appears upon it and the mind and the mind appears upon the silence and the biggest identification is the identification of the me, which is in the past, which is. The memory or it can be projected into the future, but it's all appearing on the silence. So the contents are never going to stop. You know, it's a shift of attention. It really is. It's a shift of attention. I got stuck. That's why I kind of went because last week I was speaking of being stuck in that witnessing and Terry that night pointed me and this is funny because straight after the meeting talking to me outside, what did Terry even say?

There was no memory of it, but I knew something hit me right in the heart. There was a recognition there. And so the next day, I was reading Kalyani's book about Bob. And then that opened my heart into because of the whole thing that fueled Bob's journey was looking for that thing. That gave him a second chance. And that was a deep, deep resonance there. And then I just started bawling basically with my own story, my past. And so that happened. And then I was reading something later and I just saw the phrase being aware and it hit me like a lightning bolt because it was instantaneously seeing what I had been doing was my ego had latched onto that realization from my past that I am awareness.

And it had taken the living reality of it. And it had made a subtle conceptualization of the image out of it. And on that image, it had projected the perceived qualities of awareness. So there were these apparent qualities of silence and space, but they weren't true silence and space because it was his noisy contracted me over here. But I. His space. His silence me over here. There was a duality there. So this was basically just seeing through the whole thing just collapsed straight there and found myself back in the living reality, which I've known before. And he was crying at looking at water bottles and crying.

I was like, all right. So it's been and it's been a really interesting way watching the things my because I didn't want to say too much about it tonight. Because one of the things I've really realized is my ego loves knowledge. It absolutely loves knowledge and it hooks straight into it. It all conceptualize my experience. This is where I got stuck. So as all this is happening, it's like, oh, yeah, that is I am that I am that's directly seen. But there was already this discourse going on about it and conceptualization. And it was saying that that was already making me pull back from the living reality.

So it's good that that's been. Yeah. Yeah. It's really the box stops. I am. That is wonderful. And I love the description, the living reality. What actually is see and this is I think in many ways what everyone is telling to you here and also to actually find what do you really want? What is really a priority for you? What is really a priority for you? What is really a priority for you? Do you really, you know, that that consciousness, that one that knowing being. Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel like my life's going to be amazing or anything like that. I just want to be okay with what is my whole life has been like this, like friction of life.

I shouldn't be here. Should be somewhere else. And I just thought yesterday I was like, I'm always like, I don't. I don't belong. I shouldn't be here. I should be somewhere else. And I just sat there and I was like, but I am here. Yeah. And that like it just totally came over me. I was like, but I am here. So how could I not belong here when I'm here? And then I was like, and that future. Is it resisting being here when you are here? Yeah. Yeah. Where else is it? Exactly. Yeah. I am here. So I'm not. I'm meant to be here. I am here.

And it finally, like it sunk in a little bit yesterday. I was like, I can't be not meant to be here because I am here. Like we were talking, you know, because I am here. So I don't know where else is. I like the way Jeff Foster puts it. He said, what's the point of fighting with now? Because it was already living this morning. You know, what can you do about it? Yeah. And then I go, oh, actually, I'm going to die. I go, bleh. Do you want to say something, Bob? No. I don't think I'm going to surrender to not. So what's happening if you're not thinking about it?

I think it's great. Exactly. And that's jumping over any kind of viewer, viewer, viewer and all that shit. You can just go to that. Be curious about, okay, if there's no location, no perspective of viewing from and stop before that even enters. That's what happens for me. I tend to just jump straight over and then the head comes in. Boom, boom, boom. It's just like that. It's that fast. It's that fast. All the time. But hey, that's just, it's just a very triggered set of behaviors and also a jumping part. The non-jolly is not about fixing your personal problem. No, I don't want anything fixed.

I just want to be okay with things that aren't even okay. That's the thing. Yeah. Even if my stomach's hurting, I just want to be okay with like, if shit is that, just be okay with it. Yeah. That's done. You recognize what? What already is in that acceptance. And yeah, I want to be okay with it. Doesn't mean I am okay with it at the moment. But something is. Something is. Exactly what the call is saying. Something is already okay. Something has already allowed it to be the way it is. And that's what you're looking for. The surf on the surface. Kind of like the I am here thing like we were just saying.

Yeah. On the surface, there is little me that says, oh, I don't want it the way it is. I want a different way. I don't want to fear. I don't want dying. I don't want to be like this. This is the little wave on the surface of the ocean. But deep down below all this, something has shaped reality to the shape it has already right now. So it is already being allowed and accepted as it is. It doesn't need the permission of that one little me. It's just that little me when it kind of dissipates into, relaxes into that isness. But maybe if there is in any point of life you are, if you could actually drop down or resonate with that level on which you even kind of on the beginning, it may be like I give up and I can't do anything.

Like you say, you find yourself that I'm already here. I can't do anything. Nothing that it may even have the taste of resignation. Whatever it tastes, there is a place in your heart that is already always. okay with everything is already silent is already just fine there's nothing wrong you go to the concepts and they will say no no this is not right this should be different but if you get off that conceptual self and you drop down to living reality as he says and then you just in there you just you just you home you're really in that in that non conceptual awareness of presence you home and then you see as Cole was saying you see the conceptualizing going on on top which is unfit them it is already there if like Bob is saying you are already that silence that stillness that I am now there is some sort of a wave they're going on say no no no I'm not everything I'm just something little but that's concept that's it that's a thought yeah yeah yeah , if you if you are determined to find it and you know that it's already there every moment moment to moment it will reveal itself when you say in your mind I have no idea I really don't know I can't work it out and that I don't know is beautiful and you'll notice when you absolutely resign yourself to I don't know what immediately comes after that is a stillness there's it like a there's a surrendering process of that it becomes quiet there is a surrender when it's a genuine a real I don't know and there's also someone who added a comment not being okay with what is is what is to absolutely absolutely don't resist your own resistance.

If resistance is the content of this moment, fine. If fear is the content, fine. Everything what is, is just as it is. And I don't know if this works for you, but like if you take those moments that Terry mentioned where there's just nothing happening for a wee moment, and if you take the perspective of Cuts, it was quite helpful in my first year or so, of laying out pictures of this. If really there are many, many moments where nothing's going on, and every now and then a thought pops up that's claimed as some kind of thing. But like when you look in the mirror you just go zip noise, you don't go entity, and database, and blah blah blah.

None of that ever happens. You only ever get the still shot in the movie. You never get the full movie, imaginary movie that feels like it's happening. And that's what's causing all those gaps between each still shot. There's a gap in between every shot, every image. And so if you start to see it as more of that as what it is, there's some claimed stuff in a gap. There's claimed stuff in a gap. And you start to see more of those gaps, they just start to become more obvious. And for me that was my only way in really, because I had no blinding, you know, abiding, no-self moments in the time.

I feel like I've been spending a lot of time, especially at Trace, in the middle of the day, in grade school, having to utilise my mind for practical things like for hours and hours a day, like 8.30 to like 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock. And so trying to be still, to even like, even in the moments where, and I know this is probably an excuse that I'm telling myself, so everyone, that's fine. But it's been very, so hectic and I'm finally at the end of that and there's this like weird sense now, oh, okay, that's finishing, so I will have more time. And I just, that's, I think where all the fears are rising from, because it's almost like I will have time to be still in my head.

That's what I'm feeling like. And so what will I find in that? Like maybe that's what it is. How do you think you're going to be still if you're showing? The taking, yeah. Okay, I'm still now. But maybe that's bringing it up though, is what I'm saying, because I like, I'm like no excuses, you're not going to have to use practical mind all the time, like, but yeah. Just check your own presence. Just check. I'm not present. And there's that. Just do that. That's all you have to do. Continually notice your own presence. Continually notice that you're aware and present and here and conscious. And that's all there really is to this.

There's really nothing else. And the understanding you're seeking will rise out of it. This is my view. Why don't you come through trying to work it out in your mind? I just sat on public transport and I didn't do anything else. I didn't pick up a book or a phone. I sat there and, oh shit, I've been in the story for twenty minutes. I sat there, oh I've been in the story for another twenty minutes, and then eventually I realised it wasn't even that, there just would have been moments and gaps and… Yeah, but see now you're projecting time and there is no actual time.

Yeah. I mean, I didn't matter. I didn't care about that because I didn't believe in it anyway. But whatever, whatever turned up, nothing else got distracted. You know there There wasn't a major other way to sit there and see what turned up. There was no trying to do anything particular. It was just sitting there and seeing what turned up for long periods. Once you see there is no time, then you won't be so far. Yeah, I never did about time. I never believed in it. Oh, I've been... A whole day's gone by and I forgot to remember my presence. It's complete and utter bullshit. It is complete and utter bullshit, and yet it causes so much suffering for the seeker.

This mental concept of time is just absolute torture. And until that's dealt with, you know, there'll be suffering. Even if the concept of time actually seemed, for real, what it actually is, that, if it was absolutely seen for what it actually is, that'd be enough. Yeah, that's right. That'd be enough. Forget about all... Forget about all... Forget about all the looking for the me's and forget about, oh, there's thoughts and I'm gonna... You've got to do a see that. That's the end of everything. That's the end of the entity, the end of all stories. It's all over. It's all time-based story. If you see there's no time, then that's it.

There's nothing else to do. I'm just thinking of that John Lennon line, time is a concept through which we measure our pain. There's actually no such thing as time. It's time. That's right. Time's a concept. It's not a thing. And you can't show somebody what time is. You can't show me the future. You can't show me the past. And all that ever happens is there's this constant, spontaneous, but this is a... But there's this constant, spontaneous now-ness all the fucking time. All the time. You used the word time, yeah. All the time. But it's just... It's just always. Timeless. It's always. Timeless, faceless. It's always.

And the me gets a hold of this. And we're taught to do this. As we grow up, we're taught to do that. We get hold of past, future, time. Got to be at school. Got to get... It's all... It's a... God, that's a pendulum. If that's a pendulum, and it's swinging, so you're witnessing it there now, and it's there. Does that ever exist? Does it ever exist? There it is. Does that ever exist? That? Is that that? It doesn't. It's just... I used to go, now, now, now. But really it's kind of... And I kind of got a little bit closer to it by going...

Nah... I used to try and... Once I was trying to put... You can't say now fast enough. It's just always, always, constantly present. And there's no such thing as time. If I just do it now, I'll throw it out later, right? And the easy way out of too much thinking is just basically coming back to the experience of senses, because they are happening all the now. Now you hear the sounds, now you smell the smells, now you taste the taste, now you can feel your butt on your chair, or you can feel the lips touching, or you can feel the spine or muscles. They're only now, they don't need the time, they're present experience.

And when the attention is spent there, there's not much left for the conceptualizing and thinking. And even that, it's just a kind of coming back to the sensory, leaving from the senses, is the preliminary step to actually discover who is or what is aware of all that sensations, sounds, tastes, smells. It's just really, if you're really passionate about finding out the truth, that is quite an easy way to just... It doesn't mean that it won't trigger back in, because for me, school was like there was no such thing as time, and I got it, and there was no such thing as how do you measure a centimeter.

Somebody's got this imaginary thing here and a thing there, and it's just a load of shit. But it doesn't mean that belief in oneself doesn't trigger in a lot here. So for me, time is in the way, and I'm not sure. It doesn't mean that sensory time is in the way. But I think that's cool. Something else might be the end thing. Probably just relaxing, not feeling that if I don't appease everybody, I'm going to die. Something, from some trauma, God knows what, something is just going to let go in terms of personal safety. And then there'll be 5% of the time, or less will be any sense of ownership instead of 5% known sense of ownership.

You know what I mean? So it's all a bit different, but you take what you need. You know that pretty well. Sincere earnestness will carry you through. That just seems to be there, as we can see. The what? Earnestness. The sincere earnestness to know the truth will carry you through. It's just there. It's all you need. Bob, did you want to add something? Sorry. I missed something, God. Concerned about time? Test it out. Try and live yesterday, which is the past. That's all time, past, present and future. Try and live yesterday. Try and live tomorrow. Try and live now. How long does now last? Is it a beginning?

Is it an ending? Spontaneous, isn't it? When you say, I'm now, how long does that last? You can't say it began, you can't say it end. Even measured time is just coincidental appearances at the same time. The sun comes and an atomic clock goes click and they're just at the same time. It's all it is. It's transience. We link it together in the mind into a linear thing. If you lived on a planet where the sun was geostationary directly overhead the whole time, the whole time, the whole time, it would have no idea different. How would we calculate time? How would we begin to conceptualise time if the sun never moved?

If it was always directly overhead? You'd have no idea of our time at all. It's just movement in consciousness. Transitoriness, which we then measure conceptually. As we do everything. Measure everything, because that's the nature of the mind. The old clunky mind. Got to put things into categories, got to put it into concepts, because that's its nature. There's nothing wrong with it. No, it's a useful tool. It's how you feed the food and everything. A useful tool that appears upon that presence that we always are. But only for that moment and then you think about something else like the cat. Absolutely, spontaneous place. Reality must be spontaneously present.

It must be spontaneously present all the time, timelessly. Actually all the time. Must be self-evident and spontaneously present. So look for whatever is self-evidently, spontaneously present. Poof, bang, pop, whip, stuff. Spontaneously present. Your own presence is spontaneously present and self-evident. And unchanging. And timeless. It's the only thing. It's the only thing. That's why the mind nearly has a nervous breakdown. Because it cannot figure it out. And what it does is empowers it. Because it's trying to figure it out, figure it out, figure it out, figure it out. It's like a bloody tennis match. And it's never, ever, ever going to win. Never, ever. You're just very, very literal about you can't move out of the mind.

That never goes away. That always flashes in. That's really useful. Just be very literal about you can't move out of the mind. Like the first time I heard that, that made sense. And it's never not flashed in. So I'm just lucky. I was just very literal about you can't look it out of the mind. So it never doesn't happen that way. That's just the first principle that always turns up. It's like, oh, this is interesting. And you just have to sit with it. And it goes into experience. And it lands where it doesn't. You can just be literal about that statement. I feel like even when Bobbie and Howard are talking sometimes, like today, I couldn't even focus on what you guys are saying.

And I'll have to watch the video. It doesn't matter because everything is just blurry. And I can't. But they're just words. They're all bullshit anyway. Truth is sinking into what's meant to sink in. Yeah, exactly. There'll be a nurture to look at the video. There won't be. Yeah, it's like my brain is like always, sometimes when you were talking, my thoughts were repeating what you were saying. And I'm like, anything to be active, it feels like. You were saying something and you would just repeat the words, like I was reading the book. Anything to be active, that's what it felt like. Any distraction, it's like distraction, distraction.

And I see how brilliantly aware you are of this activity. Bravo. Most of the people walk the world, walk the streets every day. It doesn't even occur to them that there is an activity happening. Exactly. For it to be safe. Yeah. And they're so concerned to be distracted. Yeah. Now you are aware of distractions. You are the awareness. And the distractions are distractions. They're not reality anymore. They're not truth anymore. They're just distractions. Sometimes they'll be empty and sometimes they'll have a little more pull, but you know. Yeah. And I remember one of the most intelligent people that I ever met in my life was the captain on one of the ships that I was working.

Brilliant, brilliant British guy. And I challenged him at some point about that stuff and asked him if he's aware of the inner dialogue that he has within his own head. And he wasn't. The guy in his late 60s and absolutely brilliant. And he wasn't. He says, no, I'm not talking to myself. I say, just go on and observe yourself and we can come back to it. Because, yeah, he was, oh gosh. Anyway, he came back a couple of days later and he says, you know what? I'm really not talking to myself. I just decided I don't want to be bothered with this guy anymore. He made it an easy and kind of a joking and laughter, but it totally disturbed him.

People live their lives and they absolutely brilliant, gorgeous people. And they don't really notice that the mind is active all the time and is having that commentary going on all the time. They don't realize that life is going on and is overlaid with the mental imaging going on, the mental noise going on on top of it. They don't even realize they die like this. So now you've already noticed the destruction that is going on when you listen to Bob and I, what we are saying. You already notice your own, you know, what the commentary is going on in your head. Bravo. This is something that is worthy of appreciating because the habit pattern of feeling limited individual is to beat ourselves up.

No, I'm no good. I'm inferior. I'm unworthy. You know, just really who you are cannot possibly be you. Right? You cannot be unworthy. You are the manifestation of that life essence, the pure perfection. But if you think yourself to be anything less than the totality, you will feel that and you will be disappointed with yourself and beating yourself up and feeling that void of the, Oh, gosh, I'm so bad. That's really noticing how much is already being digested and being really embodied in that awareness. Just love yourself. Just be warm to yourself because this is a gift. It's beautiful. It's opening up. Can you see it?

Can you see how many things and how quickly you actually really embraced? This is wonderful. This is a good news. It's definitely good to everything. Difference in what? People don't piss me off as much. They still piss me off. But not like to the extent that they used to. They used to because my mom was constantly like, That person is really annoying. I wish she'd stop talking because it's really, really annoying. And now I'm just like, Ha! She's all right. Yeah. She's got no saying. She can be as annoying as she is and there's nobody there. It's just the empty shell of the body-mind and the life essence fueling it.

Nobody is a doer. Nobody has any saying of what they say. Or what they think. Or what they do. Running late to, I was on the train and the train was running late. And I was like, this always happens. I was like, oh. I thought. Yeah. I was like, oh, here I am. And then I started practicing the conversation because I knew I had to ring school and tell them. And I was practicing in my head again. I'm like, oh, there we go. I'm like, just ring them. Because you're going to feel like you're bringing them five times. So I may as well just ring them now.

Do it once. Yeah. Do it once in reality instead of doing it five times pretending. And then when they have a reaction to it, they're like, oh, I'm going to do it again. And you're going to be like, but I've told them so many times already. Cause that like builds up. I'm having this story in my head. I'm going to say this. And so I just rang them and I was so much better. I was just like, I'm going to be late. They were like, okay? Then in my head the first story I was like, okay. I'm going to be late. And then they were like, okay, okay, okay.

I was like, are you sure? I was like, probably. That's why I did it. That's why I don't do anything, but I was like, I can do anything, but I've got to get it done. And like you said, I was doing it in my head. I was like, why am I doing it so late? I was like, I do it. And so I just rang them and I was so afraid. I was just like, I'm going to be late. They were like, okay. I'm like, cool. Then in my head the first story I was like, okay, I'm going to be late. And they were like, oh, Kieran, you can't be late.

Like that's in my head. They were already telling me off. What is in your head? Have you had a look in your head? I can't look in my head, obviously. Take a look. See what's in there. Three times a day I dropped into, oh, I am you. And it's partially conceptual, but there was like a moving away of some assessment of them. And I just like got relaxed about these people instead of... Just partly conceptual. Partly conceptual. Partly there was an experiential component for sure. Some beliefs wasn't judging those things anymore and there wasn't, you know, it was like they were kind of more neutral.

No, look directly. See where you're seeing from. See where the seeing's happening. Where is the seeing actually happening? That's the thing. I don't want to say, oh, well, my eyes are seeing and my brain's colonising, but just see nakedly and observe it naked wimps and where is the seeing happening actually? Well, like you said, the sense I get of it is like here, where I know my eyes to be. But where is the seeing of thoughts happening? Oh, yes. Well, yeah, one right here. Let's go where he's going. Not the children. This seeing. No, that seeing as well. Anything. Everything. Where is the smelling happening?

Where is the hearing happening? Is it really in your ears or is it out there on the street when the tramps are passing? Where is it? Can you really locate? Well, it's really here. I mean, your eyes are just like a video camera. It goes up the optic nerve with a... It's just electrical impulses. There's no seeing there. Well, that's a story, but... No, but I mean, yeah, but I mean, we don't know what actually sees, do you? You don't know. No. You don't know what sees. There's no separation of sound. Yeah. All I know is you pull that out, that doesn't see anymore, but...

You can notice in the session that says, oh, there's a distance to that. You notice, you can notice that doesn't happen, then there is no particular distance. There's no location of that sound if you notice before you actually work out where it is. Yeah. Yeah, I think we got to finish it because Bob is showing me the time and it is a good place to actually end, to just see, just experience, just figure out, watch it. Where is the actually looking going on? Where is the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching? Where is it really happening? Is it any location there? Is there an entity doing it or is it just a space of...

Just see, just, yeah, just taste it because it's something that you have to discover first. Just see it for yourself. It's not something that somebody can give you the answer and you can believe it because you don't want to go with belief. You want to really go with the certainty. Belief is worth nothing. Honestly, I don't get believe in anything. That's wonderful. That's an attitude. And with that seeing, the literal seeing, whilst you're seeing, can you see where the seeing is coming from back here? And what is that? What's the experience of it? What's the experience back here? This seeing. Yeah. And we assume that the seeing is coming from the eyes or behind the eyes or that's kind of the general...

Mentality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the concept that we've got going on. But when you actually, actually look, when you actually look... Yeah, sit with that. And thank you very much for today. You're welcome.