Sailor Bob - Non Duality - What causes thinking to happen? 11 Oct 2018

So everyone knows the names? Yeah, Amos. Moira. Jane. Annabelle. Tony. Kathy. Robin. Max. Terry. And Bob. And Kat. And Pest, yeah, and a kitty cat. Okay, so nice and gentle. Non-duality is all about recognizing that this is just one life essence or energy or intelligence or awareness shaping all the forms and patterns that appear. So to actually recognize everything that we see around as different patterns, different patterns of energy, like sound is a pattern of energy, the sight, the interpretation of what we see by the eyes, the patterns of energy. Thoughts are very subtle sort of a sound. They're also patterns of energy. So everything is actually made of the same substance.

And it's showing up as a different pattern of energy or different frequency, one could say, or the analogy that is often used as the different waves of one and the same ocean. So recognizing that one is the natural step is to actually see that all of them are appearing in the space of awareness. The one thing that is common about every single pattern of energy is that it is known. So this is the one thing that is known. Okay. The knowing of it, knowing of the sound, knowing of the sight, knowing of the salt, knowing of the body is just the knowing, is just the plain, plain knowing.

So that knowing is called awareness or consciousness or the basic knowing. So this knowing is what we actually are. And on that basic space of awareness or the knowing, we put different labels, we put different, we associate ourself with different shape and form and pattern. We begin to believe through the conditioning from childhood that we are the body, which is totally ridiculous because the body is changing all the time. Like the body, every moment there are millions of cells dying in this body. And there is not one cell present that was present when we were children. So we obviously cannot be the body because knowing the body changing, the knowingness of it is obviously not part of the body.

Okay. We can't have it, otherwise it wouldn't be knowing. So another popular association is that, okay, I'm not the body, that obviously is, I'm the mind. But what is the mind really? Mind is just a stream of thinking. So if I am a stream of thinking, what is the knowing of the stream of thinking? Which particular thought would I be? And is that thought really there permanently? Like if I would be a thought that I exist, the thought is gone when I go to sleep. So I can't be that thought. And I'm not thinking that thought all the time. The thoughts are actually appearing on the screen of awareness.

And we know that very well because we know how persistent patterns just show up. And we can't stop them. And we can't stop thinking. We can't stop judging. We can't stop particular responses or reactions or thoughts from appearing. But the knowingness of it, the knowingness of forms, of bodies, of thoughts, of sights, of sounds is the same. It's just pure knowing. So what non-duality is about is about recognizing the pure knowing as the ultimate truth, the being, knowing, and loving to be. And everything that is appearing on it, that changing content, basically recognizing it as changing content. So if there is a thought appearing in the space of knowing or sound appearing in the space of knowing or sight or form, that's just the content of the awareness.

Okay. So that's just part of the awareness or of the knowing. So the popular way of looking at it is to actually negate what we are not. It's a preliminary sort of inquiry because ultimately when we recognize that everything is made of the same substance, saying that I am not the body is not entirely truth. Because I could say I'm not exclusively this body, but being a totality, I'm totally everything including the body. Okay. not exclusively just that one. So, recognizing content as a content, recognizing thinking as just thinking, rather than identifying, embodying the thinking, is a very, very simple way out of suffering, out of identifying myself as the other, and suffering due to the wrong identification, or assuming the identity.

Like Nisargadatta used to say, stop pretending to be what you are not. Stop pretending. We kind of pretend to be a separate entity, a persona, the mask of identity, that we identify ourselves as. And with that identification comes self-obsession, comes the idea that the whole world is all about me, people are thinking or worrying about me, or people are obsessing about me. Nobody really cares about me, everybody cares about themselves. But that self-obsession takes the sleep away, it takes the efficiency away, functionality away, because we are focusing in our head and obsessing about ourselves, and there isn't one. Nobody has ever pinpointed something that would be called a separate self.

It is basically a bundle of beliefs, very painful, very limiting beliefs. Because through simple investigation, we can realize, yes, okay, I'm not exclusively this body, it is constantly changing, I'm the knowing of it. I'm not exclusively that bundle of thoughts, they are constantly changing, I am the knowing of it. So the one thing that we can't actually discard is the knowing. There is a knowing. And there is an existence. Like Bob often asking the spiel, do you know that you exist, or you believe it? Is the existence a fact? Is the existence undeniable experience of this moment? Or is it just a belief? Like when I say I'm the body, that's a belief.

Or I'm a person, that's a belief. I'm a woman, that's a belief. And the characteristic of the belief, is first of all, unquestioned acceptance of something, in absence of reason. It requires language, and it requires prior knowledge. I usually adapt it with the words, I was told by somebody else that this is what I am. And I basically just accepted it without questioning, without checking. If someone told me I'm a woman, yeah, of course. And nobody ever looked, is that really my experience? Is it really what I'm experiencing at the core of my being? Is that still truth when I stop thinking? Is that still truth if I don't project mental image on my experience of being, of being a particular person, or the body, or a person of certain sex?

Well, it is not. And this is really easy to check. It is easy to check what is wrong with right now, or what is wrong in life, if we don't adopt a thinking, if we stop projecting. So it's really like this, we have to give up and say, it is not the reason I'm here. That's not the reason I'm here, it is always it is not the reason I'm here. It is only the reason that I'm here. I'm only here because I'm here and I am here. The reason is that I am here. And and what makes the difference between being here, and being there?

The connection between being here, life. And everyone has direct experience of that. The only thing is that usually we get distracted by self-obsession, by thinking. So it's not much of attention resting back in the source of attention, where the attention streams from. The attention gets spent into the story, into the worries, into the projections of the future or the past. And has anybody ever experienced the future? In other way than imagination or anticipation. We can only taste it when it becomes now. It's not the future anymore. So future is basically mental concept. It is a helpful concept in a way of daily functioning. It's not to discard the concept.

All the thinking can be really helpful and creative and it's a wonderful capacity. Only taking it too seriously and taking it for a gospel, it just becomes painful. It's just unnecessary. Knowing the conceptual thinking or calculation or comparison or judgement as for what it is, that's the mental activity. Brings the thing out of it. Now I'm still the awareness of presence and there is an activity going on. There are sounds going on in the space of hearing. There are thoughts going on in the space of thinking. There are sights going on in the space of seeing. And I'm the space of knowing which is experiencing passing changes.

There are thoughts changing content. That makes the life much easier, makes it effortless. The thoughts still show up on the screen of awareness just like sounds, just like sights, just like smells. But they are what they are. They are not being confused anymore for the reality that is superimposed on this moment. This moment as it is. It may contain the content. Hearing, seeing, tasting, perceiving. Tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. But the content is known for what it is. Rather than actually going into a projection, the overlay that we put over that space of this moment. The filter of interpretation or translating everything in the relation to the me that we believe to be a gospel.

We believe to be so real and so firm that it's unquestionable. It is questionable. And it doesn't really take much to just understand. It's just a question. Each of us should be able to experience and to look, just have a look and check. And of course, many, many, many people will never, ever have the thought to have a look and check. And yeah, well, that's how life takes them. That's where life takes them. But because we are here, it, it may be possible for us to actually even resonate with the invitation of looking behind. What is it that obstructs or distructs us? From the Pure blissful.

sweet awareness of being alive and from watching the content from that certainty of being as the content, just admiring, loving it because the content they call Maya. And it may feel offensive to call that wonderful manifestation a Maya or illusion. It feels so real and it's so beautiful. Call it illusion, it kind of brings it down to something meaningless or worthless. Quite the contrary, quite the opposite, knowing that this moment is fleeting, that is changing, is going to disappear in no time. Yeah, there's someone there. Makes it even more precious. Now it's going to be your turn now. Grab your seats, there are a couple of chairs there.

Your first time here? Yes. Okay. Now, your turn. Would you hear about this? Yes. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you. You hear it, yes. You hear it, yes. One of my friends, we came here. Are you in Brisbane? My friend is from Sydney.

I'm from Brisbane too. Did you come from Brisbane now? Yes. Oh, cool. Welcome. Yeah. You go, Bob. His cat was pointing at her. It's all that non-dual. One without a second. One essence. It's patting, shoving for me. You know, she's always coming to me, you know. and he's shaping for me and expressing as everything because I've got the idea of the concept there's a separate entity an individual a person but when you look at it can you separate yourself from anything we take ourselves to be this body mind but are you the body how can you be you just say my body don't you say my house my car my coat my hat you know you're not the house the car the coat of that they're mine they then oh you know you're not then you say my mind are you the mind when you investigate these things the false cannot stand up to investigation take the body for instance what's this body made up of you you'll see it's made up of elements here there's fire water space just like the elements around you separate yourself from those elements if you can take the air out of your body stop breathing see how long you last without that you take the water if you die thirst if you didn't drink water take the fire the body temperature soon get hypothermia and die get off the earth get out of space when you look at it closely you realize you're not no you might think you're separate you're not separate from anything and what we point about is the one essence that's suppressing expressing patterning shape and form is everything non-duality not two and look at that got a stick or a piece of wood can you ever find a piece of one-ended piece of wood or stick it always has two ends to it a one-sided coin it's got two sides to it have a look at your mind see how it functions see it vibrates always in the opposites good bad pleasant painful happy sad loving 80 all dualistically and the labels we put upon it are the words we've learned what can you tell me what can you say you hadn't learnt any words.

The cats don't know any words. They might recognise the sound if we speak a word. And a muse to another cat or something like that, and birds the same. They haven't got words or labels to put on them. But the sound, the pitch or the tone of the voice, they can recognise what's being pointed to. We've got all these words. Maybe the word's not the thing. Can you drink the word water? The word water is just a label. It's not the thing. Can you say, heat yourself with the word fire? Or burn yourself with the word? You can't. And every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been learnt.

None of you were born with any words. And you say I was born, but can any one of you actually say that? You can't actually remember your birth. Look at it. You can't remember your birth. You can only go back in your life to a point, far back in your memories, around about two, two and a half, somewhere around that age, when you started to learn words. Now look at that. Before you learnt any words, before you came into existence, you were nine months in the womb. You didn't have any words then. You didn't say, I'm growing in the womb. After you came out of the womb and the birth happened, you didn't have any words.

You didn't have any words to say, I was born. So you didn't, can't remember your birth. You can't remember those times because you can't put any label or time frame on it. When we've learnt words, all this world, concepts of ideas in the world have come upon us, we've taken to be real. They put it in the Buddhist scriptures to say, call it the great perfection. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Anybody unaware in this room right now, you can't tell me what awareness is, putting labels on it was not it, but you can negate it. You can say, I am not unaware. If you're not unaware, you must be aware without putting a label, without putting any shape on it.

And isn't that basically always there? Could you hear any of these words? Could you come into the room and sit down if that life essence or awareness wasn't there? So that's exactly what you are. The same life essence as pattern, shape and form is everything. And you can't be anything other than that. And that's what they tell you in the scriptures again. I am that. Or that is existence. The knowing that is the consciousness or awareness. And the ananda is the loving to be. We all love to be. Sat Chit Ananda. The other two factors is nama rupa. Name and form. And they'll tell you that name and form are a fiction.

They're imagination. They're words, concepts, images. And they tell you that the name and form, the manifestation is maya. It's illusion. It's a phenomenal manifestation. And have a look at all this manifestation. You, me and everything else are pattern, shapes and formant. Are a part of the manifestation. And you can't be anything other than that. Sat Chit Ananda. The only thing that you can be is the knowledge of the divine. And that's the definition of the word phenomena. And the definition of the word phenomena is that which appears to be again pointing out to this manifestation. Though it's seemingly real, it's only appearing to be so.

And there are many more manifestations out there. It's actually a difference between the word phenomena and how it appears, how it appears on the screen, where you're reading the text. So what's it supposed to be? It's a black book. It's the Chamomile 對維 PP. And let me put the word phenomena here, And there are many metaphors that are used to point that out. Take the ocean. You go down to the ocean and see a blue sea. I'll say, give me a bucket of blue water out of the sea. I've never seen it happen yet. Do you think you're going to get one? And the blue sky, you go up 30,000 feet in the plane, does the blueness come into the cabin?

Is the cabin full of blueness? It's not. It's always further out. A mirage or a pattern of vibrating energy on the surface appears to be a pool of water. When was there ever any water in a mirage? It never was there, but it appears to be. People you felt years ago looked out into the sea and sky and said, the Earth is flat. Don't go out there, you'll fall off the edge of the Earth. Who would believe that today? Nobody. Because it's been investigated. And we say that the false cannot stand up to the false. It's not. It's an investigation. When you know the truth about yourself, as the scripture's telling you, know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

What are you free of? The erroneous belief that you're a person, you're a separate entity, you're an individual. Person comes from the word persona. The Greek word persona meaning the mask. Pointing out we've got this mask of concepts of identity on ourselves, and take ourselves to be that mask. I'm Bob, an Australian, blah, blah, blah. All concepts, all thoughts are words. And we point out, have a look at the word. Every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been picked up along the way. None of us were ever born with any words. We've learnt words from the time we started to reason.

And the word's not the real. The word water, you can't drink it. The word fire won't burn your mouth. So this word I or me, we take to be real. It's not what you actually are. And we get lost in that, taking it to be real, and try and find the answer to it in the mind, with thoughts and with words. And you might have stilted along this path for 10, 20, 30 years, or 15 or 10 years, or whatever, and never come across it. Why don't you just recognise that maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction? I've been looking in the mind to find the answer, trying to work it out with the mind.

And this mind is nothing but a group of concepts, words. And they call it, in the scriptures, they call it ignorance. And when they say ignorance, it doesn't mean that we're dumb or stupid. It means we are ignoring our true nature, and focus in the conceptual image belief that we are the separate entity. And it's easy to fall into that trap because everybody else around you is doing it. Your school's taught it to you, your parents, your society, your nation, everyone else taught it, that you are this person. And when they teach you, you believe this, you are this person, you take on and get the belief in yourself.

And they tell you to look out there, to acquire, to amass, to accumulate, to add to, whatever you can to make yourself seemingly whole. Get a good job, get more wealth, get a good relationship, get more property and all the rest of it. Have you ever seen a millionaire yet that's got enough? You can't and you won't, because they're never satisfied. They're trying to pile all this stuff up. They're trying to build all these concepts onto what is already total, what is already real and the actual. Down through the ages there have been people that have known this, so-called people. And that's where all the great religions form around.

These people have pointed to the truth, they recognise the truth and are tired to point it out. And what's happened? People have set them up as saints, sages, saviours and seers, gods, buddhas, all the rest of it. And they've worshipped them. They've worshipped the messenger. And lost sight of the message. They've never taken any of the... It's the message that's the actuality. The message and what we point out here is just like a signpost. You want to get to Bourke Road and Whitehorse Road from down in Kew or somewhere, there'll be a signpost pointing Kew this way, or whatever, Whitehorse Road this way. But that pointer is not the corner of Whitehorse Road and Bourke Road.

It's just a pointer. And when you realise the pointer is not the reality, it's only a pointer. It's a concept, a label we talk about. And you've got your Melways and you look up where Whitehorse Road and Bourke Road is, you'll get the idea where it is against your pointer. But you're not there with a signpost pointing to it or the Melway pointing to it. And the map is not the territory. The pointer is not the actual. So you're here where the pointer is pointing to. And if you really want to understand a grassroots, you look to where it's being pointed to and see for yourself.

No matter what you're told and what you believe, none of these saints, saints, saviours or religions or truth can ever give it to you. Nobody can ever give you what you've already got. It is already your natural state. But it's obscured by concept, ideas, thoughts and images. But it's obscured by concept, ideas, thoughts and images. But it's obscured by concept, ideas, thoughts and images. And taken to believe that you are the concepts, images and ideas. A personal self. And as I said, person or persona is only the conceptual image we've got. And the Sargonauta points out that. He's got a whole chapter devoted to it.

The person is not reality. And as I say, nobody can tell it to you. But hearing it, investigate and see it for yourself. And people in this room have done that. And they're no longer seeking. When I say you won't find the answer in the mind, and you've looked in the mind for many years and never found the answer, what way is there out of the mind? And you'll realise there's no way out of the mind because every thought and everything keeps you in the mind. And the only way that's seemingly out of the mind is full stop. Drop the words, the thoughts, the ideas and concepts.

And see if that's the end of you, if you're not thinking. If you pause the thought. Just like when you go to sleep at night, is the end of you. There's no thoughts going on in sleep unless you start dreaming and then you'll create a different world altogether. And when you pause the thought or go to sleep, there's no thoughts going on. So then, looking in your mind for all this time, not finding the answer in the mind, they're just dawn on you. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction. I've looked along this path and that path and every other path and never found the answer.

And I'm not an idiot. I'm an intelligent being. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction. That's the only answer you can come up with. If it's not there and I'm not dumb or stupid, I might be looking in the wrong direction. And that's when you get the first taste of what you actually are. Which is prior to the thought, beyond the mind. It's that life essence that's breathing your heart, growing your hair and your fingernail, breathing. Causing the thoughts to come. Doing all this thing. That life essence. It's the same life essence that's rolling the earth around the sun. Causing the seasons to come and go.

Causing the tides to come in and out. Causing the seasons to come. You're not separate, really. Because it's only the one essence appearing as everything else. There are different pattern shapes and forms appearing. They're different. And we take that pattern shape and form and the seemingly difference in it to be real. Don't call it God here. I don't. You can if you like. But I don't call it God here because you can get confused with that word. Because each of us come from different traditions. Some of you might be Christian. Some of you might be Buddhist. Some of you might be Muslims. Some of you might be Hindus.

Start using the term God. You're related to what your traditional belief is. And so lose sight of what we're actually pointing to. I use the term intelligence. I use the term intelligence energy. And I'm not talking about intellects when I'm talking about intelligence. I'm talking about the same intelligence that's forming galaxies to form. It's causing the tides to come in and out. It's the sun to rise. It's breathing. You're breathing hard. And all those things that galaxies form and sun rising and everything are activities. Activities of that intelligence. Intelligence is knowing. Another word for it is knowing. And you know that. There's a knowing there that you are right now.

What you are, you've got these concepts about it. But you can't negate your being and knowing. You're knowing that you are. And that knowing is an activity. It's a movement. Any activity is a movement of energy. So it's intelligence energy. The activity of knowing. Anyone who's not knowing right now. So you don't have to search for that activity. Isn't it happening right now in this moment? Without putting the concepts on. Where you're starting from behind, scratch, behind. I've got to acquire it. I've got to become liberated. I've got to become realized. I've got to do this. I've got to do that. Not only not recognizing it, but it's making harder to get it.

Because you've got a conceptual image. You're trying to get to the thing that you think is going to acquire it. And why hasn't it happened? Because again, maybe you're looking in the wrong direction. So different ways of putting it in the scriptures. One way of saying it, a simple way is relax. Relax. Into that I've forgotten it. Rest in this uncontrived singularity. Rest in this uncontrived singularity. It's a singularity. That's what non-duality is. It's a singleness. The oneness. One without a second. Not two. That's what the label I put on it. I put one without a second on it because even the idea of one implies that there could be other than one.

So that implication is always in it. Even though we say in one. But it's not even one. They put that without a second so there's no implication. There can be other. So everything is that one. It's the one space. It's the one silence. The stillness. It's the one essence that's patterning, shaping, informing and expressing it. It is that everything. Can you separate yourself from any of it? So then when you hear the Mahavaki or the great man, I am that. That is what you actually are. Not the person. Not the believed in entity. Not the human being. You are that existence. Anyone who is not existing right now.

You can't say no. So you must be that existence. Anyone who is not conscious or unaware right now. No, you'll say I am not unaware. I'm conscious. Anyone who is not happy to be right now. Nobody wants to knock themselves off at this moment. Unless you're locked into some conceptual image that you believe there's got to be. And you think you're going to get rid of it then if you can. If you kill that self. All you'll do is kill that thinking pattern, habitual pattern, the life essence that you are. Cannot disappear. The patterns, shape and form will break down and disappear. As it is right now.

It's cat-bited out. It's transient. This manifestation is transient. You haven't got the same body you walked in this room with. There are cells dying at it right now being replaced. Not one or two but thousands of them. You haven't got the same body you had last year. Look back at it and you'll see that as a fact. Did you have the same body or the same thoughts about yourself when you were 10, 15 years? Or 5 years or 4 years or 3 years? You certainly didn't. Last week haven't you changed? Haven't you got different concepts about yourself this week? Or even yesterday for a minute?

So you recognise that this manifestation is transient. It's not only you, me. But everything else in them. The trees are out there shedding leaves. Or bringing sprouts. The same thing is spreading. There's a spring coming on now. They're putting sprouts, buds, leaves, flowers and fruit. When the winter's out there and that sap stops running through the trees, all the leaves drop off. They're not getting any energy. The buds can't form. The flowers and fruit can't arrive. But they're innately in that tree. When it gets the heat of the sun and a bit of water on it, that energy stirs. And all these things happen. Realise that this intelligence energy that you are is the actuality.

Not the conceptual thinking where you think you're going to get somewhere. And let that stir a bit and enliven you. Let it express through the core of your being. And what's the leaves, flowers and fruits that will come from that? And recognise I am that. Oh God. You're here. If you're here because you're here, we ask you to ask questions. Some of you will know it. They'll be able to expound on it a bit more in probably a different light. If you're new or have been here a couple of times and you're a bit shy to ask, nobody's going to jump on you or tell you anything.

But you should not realise you can't work it out in the mind. And some of the pointers you hear might, hear something if you ask a question, might resonate with you. That resonation is a recognition, a recognising of your true nature. It's already been cognised. Cognising is knowing. You've already had tastes of it all through your life. But it gets obscured again by the concepts. So it needs to be recognised. That's what that term recognition is. We don't understand if it's recognised. It's a recognising. Recognising again and again. Whenever it comes up and seems to have you lost in the concepts, pause and have a look.

Remind yourself. And come back here again if you want reminders of it. Or go to somebody that you understand and think it's going to be recognised. Because you've got lost in the belief you are this person. Because your skills, your society, your parents, everybody around you and then yourself are continually reinforcing that belief. And it's second nature to because of that. Second nature to you. Drop into it straight away. But all habit patterns can be done away with. If you recognise them and see through them, you can break habits. You know that. Maybe you smoked or drank and maybe you're not doing it anymore. Maybe there's other things you were doing that dropped off now out of the habit as broken.

So these things need to be recognised and understood. And you wouldn't be here if somebody hadn't moved you or something hadn't moved you to take a long, long line. You've heard it from somewhere. You've been walking along these lines. Probably hit a stumbling block. Well come here and see if there's any recognition or recognition and it opens you up. So take it from there. Don't hesitate to ask questions. Nobody's going to jump on you. But it opens the meeting up if you do. You can sit here and there's the same stuff going on all night. Walk out of the room. And then you say, you'll go out there, you'll ask all the questions about the place then.

Or talk it with the others. And have all sorts of thoughts. Do it here. Where you might get an answer. That's what's taken away. Why don't we put the hearing down now. I'm a bit deaf. Yeah, okay. I'll repeat it. Recognise true self. Is it true grace or true effort? So you remain intelligent. The knowing that is there. Instead of focusing the knowing into the conceptual knowing. Without that conceptualising, are you unaware right now? Without putting a concept on? Have you stopped living? That innate knowing, recognising, is breathing you. It's breathing your heart. It's causing the thinking to happen. But we try to grasp it with a concept.

It's become our habit pattern. But it's non-conceptual. Can you negate your being right now? That being is a knowing. And you're knowing that you are. What you are, you might put a concept on. So and so on. This, that and the other. But break that concept. Don't put the concept on. I know that I am. And don't add on I am the person. I am that reality. Take that stance. And then it'll come up. How do I know this? What is that reality? And then a little bit conceptualising might come up. Which we're pointing to it. And you're saying, well I see or recognise that I can't be this body and mind.

But I'm still breathing. Heart's still beating. My hair and fingernails. What's going on? What is that life? And then you recognise, I am the life. That's what Christ told you years ago. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. People think he was talking about himself. He wasn't. A misinterpretation. He was talking about that sense of presence that's expressed through the mind as the thought I am. That's the way. That's the truth. That is the actual life. I am that life that changes into words and concepts. But basically, you're saying, well, I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life.

I am the truth. I am the life. I am the life. I am the life. I am the life. I am the life. I am the life that changes into words and concepts. But basically, those words and concepts formulate the person or the mental image. Without that mental image, you are the life. Isn't that a fact? You are breathing, your heart is beating, your hair and fingernails are moving right now. That's life. And in the saga that will tell you there is life. There's only life. There is nobody who lives the life. We think we are the body living the life, the body, mind. And there's nobody who lives the life.

Life is happening. And you are that. Don't forget it. In other words, you're actually already cognizing your aliveness, you're already aware of your presence, aware of your being, and that's it. There's nothing more to it. We think there is a big flash of light or love or whatever, the huge experience that is happening, but it's really actually so transparent and so subtle. It's like looking at the space, you can't see it because it's too close to your eyes, and we are conditioned to actually notice objects. So we are looking for this enlightenment or we're looking for this true nature as if it was an object, but it's not an object, it cannot be found.

It expresses itself as the activity of looking or activity of resting in that uncontrived singularity. So it's not really something that you as a person can find as an object, but you can't lose it either. You can't lose that sense of aliveness. You can only distract yourself and stop actually putting attention on it. You put attention on abstractions of sounds, thoughts, all the other stuff, and that's the only problem. And also I wanted to, because Bob highlighted in the spiel that we are not into creating false separation of the messenger that sits on the high throne. There is a lot of people in this room who have already recognized their true nature, and they may be moved to understanding.

I'm not saying that they are not. I'm just saying that they are not. I'm just saying that they are not. I'm just saying that they are not. I'm just saying that they are not. They are not. They are not. They are not. They are not. They are not. They're coming here because they're grateful they love Bob or because they just like that sort of an energy, but they are not seeking anything anymore. There is nothing to seek really. The seeking is the very activity that actually the idea that there is something to be found that perpetuates the idea that this is not it is actually the problem.

So these people, there will be people who fully recognize it and abide as that for whatever 20 years, 30 years, 40 years like Bob. or even a couple of years. And there are people who actually recognized enough that they could share their own insights. And actually Bob always invites people because it's a rare format of the meeting. Most of the meetings like this, they have a guru who is actually setting up and answering questions. And he is somehow higher, somehow superior because he knows something that you don't. There is no difference between you and Bob. You both are fueled by the same life. It's just the grass that is growing.

There's no difference either. They're different forms. You talked about grace. Who would have the grace? Me. So you'd be relating to that. And the effort. Yeah, relating to that seeming person. So that's not getting you out of the me. Oh, I've been given the grace and me has still got the grace and thinks it's got something. And who is this grace? Is she a good girl? He is asking from the mic. That natural, if you like to call it, grace is there. That will reveal what is necessary for you. Because it's brought you into existence. Remember that. And you put whatever, you know, the years you've been living, every one of those years is brought about.

The transient is constantly changing. It's always constantly changing. When you look at time, you'll see time is a mental concept. There's no past unless you think about it. There's no past unless you think about it. There's no future. You'll say I was in the past. Well, I'll say go back and live a moment ago. Go back and live last week. You cannot. But you can recall it. And the only actuality you're giving it is when you're recalling it right now. Because you can't tell me what you thought a minute ago now unless you recall it. The same with the future. You can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do when you leave here.

But you can't live a moment in the future. And the only activity that's got, reality that's got, is what you're giving it in this moment. So when these people tell you you've got to try and stay in the now, also try and get out of it. You never were away from it. You are that now. Can I add something? Sorry. I think what you say about grace, because there was a story about grace in my past, in the past. I don't think it's my past because there's no me. But there's different paths that talk about grace. And for a long time, I thought I was lucky enough to see my inattention from the point of attention, which I thought was grace.

But it's just a story. It's just a story, like all the other stories, including the story of me and the grace I've been given. You see? Because there is only one. There is only oneness. And that's not a story. That's a fact. There's no separation. There is just oneness. And what happens is the mind, which is a fairly clunky blessing, because it needs to be used. But it's kind of a clunky thing. As Bob was saying, past, future, pleasure, pain, desire, fear, me, you. But when you see that, as St. Francis said, you know, St. Francis used that very well in that it's through dying we're born to eternal life.

He didn't mean dying. He meant dying to the self. And he talked about the pairs of opposites as well. And when you see through the pairs of opposites, there can't be a you. There can't be a me. There is only love or oneness or whatever you want to call it. There is only love. There is only love. There is only love. There is only love. But in reality, it's just a vibration as Kat was saying. Also, I can see clearly the aspect. Why would the idea of grace be introduced at the first place? It is really just to say not a person, not the personal self, but something beyond the person.

And calling it grace, you could easily call it life also. Like this is the grace of life or this is the doing of life. Like the same way you could say, that grace is running the universe. Grace is lighting the sun so it is shining. The idea of grace is not like an agency or God or something separate. It is just really to say not the personal self because the personal self has no power to do anything. This personal self is a bundle of thoughts. Thoughts don't have power to do any actions. Thought cannot lift your hand. This is the grace doing it. Or is the life doing it?

So the idea of grace, I see where it comes from, but it could be confusing. That's why we kind of try to clear it up. Yes, I think. I'm going to wait for this grace to come about. I'm going to practice looking for grace. You can be practicing that before you even get down to the nitty gritties. It's to the point of who is it happening to? It's happening to me. Wait a minute, that bloke up there, he says there's no me. Is he right or is he wrong? I'll have a look and see if what he's saying is true. If what he's saying is false, you're going to throw it out.

Go ahead if you can. That's the scriptural saying, know the truth. The truth will set you free. So just as a matter of interest, where has your path taken you? Or led you from? Just as a matter of interest. What I have been doing, I have been attracted to meditation. I found that... Can you speak up a little? Yeah, with the mind, you cannot do anything. Good. Wonderful. Only when there is a break up, I felt was not from myself, was not from my mind, was something different. I felt grace. So, and then, but it is something that I cannot push. Yes. But at the same time, I cannot let, not let, how is it called?

I have to be kind of effort. Although it is effortless thing, but it is something that I cannot push, but I cannot relax too much. You can't negate it. You can't push it. Yeah. So, it is something that sometimes, you know, there is kind of anxiety, you know, ah, it is too much. Kind of anxiety, you know? But at the same time, kind of this, sometimes the feeling, but I cannot force it also. So, it is kind of, it is kind of struggle also. Although... So, so without sounding, without sounding like I'm just saying things from, from a, a place of the consciousness, a place of the concept, what Bob's on about here is, you know, it sounds contrite, but, you know, have a look at who it is that is struggling.

Yeah. And isn't that an image you have about yourself? Yeah. Because right here, right now, what's wrong with right now? If you don't think about it. I love you. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. The problem, the problem really occurs. You verbalized it beautifully. In terms of, you've come to an understanding that the answer is not in the mind. Yeah. Okay, I've heard you say that. I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what I heard you say, which is great. That'll get us so far. It's intellect. It is actually intellect. We, we get exposed to this, and we learn all this stuff. And the ego is pretty smart. It's pretty fucking smart.

Okay. And it learns all this stuff. And it'll get to the point where, you know, I can see what I'm not. I can, and I can know what I'm not. But it gets really difficult when you have that, that, that, that understanding. And yet, you'll still feel what you described a moment ago, anxiety in the body. Anxiety in the body. Now that feels real. The anxiety in the body, that feels real. Like that, you can't say that's, that's not happening. You can't. It'd be like saying I don't have a right foot. You do have a right foot. You know, it is there. Yeah. That, and that's where it can get kind of difficult, you know, and then we sort of, and then we, we can attempt to do what Jane just said.

Okay, who's this happening to? Who's experiencing this energy that I'm calling anxiety? Yeah. What, what is left of this self-identity? Because this is about letting go of that and I'm sure you know that. Yeah. What is left of this self-identity that is still saying, I've experienced this anxiety. There's this, there's this sense of anxiety in the body. Yeah, and, and you really can't negate that. It's there. Yeah. It's, it's totally there. Yeah. Now, it might be being that, that, that anxiety. It's just changed the name. Let's just call it an energy. Because as soon as you label it, what happens to that, that, that energy in your body when you label it, it recalls, even without you being aware of it, it recalls that you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, it recalls all of the times throughout the past from as way back as you can remember where you've experienced anxiety.

Well, I had a struggle. Because if it, if it didn't do that, you wouldn't know to name it that. I know this is anxiety because I've experienced this before. Okay. So, then it latches onto all of those past experiences where, where you've experienced anxiety and then it manifests, seems to manifest in the present and in the future. And that's, that's, that's what I mean and that's what I mean here now purely because we've named it. Oh, it's anxiety. It could just be an energy. Now that energy in the body might be being produced by a thought and it might not be. Like it literally might not be.

But you need to investigate that for yourself to see. In the mere fact that you've called it anxiety, it's totally being created by a thought. Absolutely, it's being created by a thought. That anxiety will appear through some form of sense of separation. In fact, anxiety is always born of that. I'm here and you're there. Or I'm separate, I'm isolated. Anxiety straight away. Or I can't get this. Yeah, or I've been at this a long time. What am I missing? What am I not getting? That'll create anxiety too. Especially if you've been at this for a long time. So the idea... You know, there's... That sense...

That that you're experiencing in here, could that be experienced if there was no aliveness in that body? That's a question. Couldn't... If the body was dead, and there was no life left in it, pretty sure that anxiety would just go poof. And it would be gone. You wouldn't be experiencing it. So that... So... Sense of me that... When you've looked at this for a long time and yet there's still... Yeah, I'm still here. Can I ask you one? Please. Yeah. Is it your experience or is it just intellectual thing you are doing? Ah, experience. Very good question. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yes. Total experience.

Yeah. From what... Yeah. You're welcome. Bob actually told him he's graduated. So he doesn't have to leave any donation. He's not a student anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am speaking for... Yes, I am. Very good you asked him. And it... Sorry. I say that with all sensations. We call them sensations. We do... With each one ever fresh. We label them from past events. This one's anger. How do you know? You've had this sensation. This one's anxiety. This one's stress. This one's guilt. This one's shame. But see the sensation as ever fresh presence awareness. Just that. Do you want to just throw something in there?

Yeah. Yeah. The... Hmm. The reason that that last little bit... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure I'm going to call it that. And I won't say this to everybody. I'll say it to some. But the reason that last that you're experiencing. That last little bit of meanness that's there is because that me, that illusory self identity, the last thing it will attach itself to is life. Because there's nothing else. You've exhausted it in here. You know you're not in there. You absolutely know. you're not in the mind you know you're not a concept you know you're not a belief you know you're not an idea you know you you know you're not a word you know there's no such thing as time i'm assuming you've been down those paths yes yes yes i thought so um so you know you come to see all that and i'm still here what the fuck's going what have i missed like you know you've turned over all the rocks you've looked under every rock you know and you've turned them all over and you go there's no more rocks to turn over and i'm still here what like what what is that what's what's going on and and you asked me before is this an intellectual or an experiential my experience with that and i was on this path for a long time but my experience with that was that this um uh illusory self that still felt um uh illusory self that still felt um uh illusory self that still felt it was here the reason that it still felt that it was here was because the last thing that it hung onto was that that was real everything else it hung onto prior to that was not real everything was a concept an absolute pure fictitious concept words sounds you know we it's just sounds and then we're it's just sounds and then we're it's just sounds and then we're attached a meaning to that attached a meaning to that attached a meaning to that sound and then the meaning then becomes sound and then the meaning then becomes sound and then the meaning then becomes something it gets so removed something it gets so removed something it gets so removed from the actual like no wonder we get from the actual like no wonder we get from the actual like no wonder we get stuck no wonder we're in an illusion stuck no wonder we're in an illusion stuck no wonder we're in an illusion yeah so that the reason it kind of at yeah so that the reason it kind of at yeah so that the reason it kind of at the end it kind of feels like the end it kind of feels like the end it kind of feels like but there's a core sense of i feel i but there's a core sense of i feel i feel me here like i really feel me here that me that you're feeling that you think you're feeling is that sense of presence and the maze hijacked it the me says it's mine or it'll come out another way i still feel like i'm here i still feel like i'm stuck i've missed something and the reason it feels so strong is because it totally identifies with that sense of presence and and it thinks it's that so then again when you get there you kind of need to look that self-inquiry really really really absolutely look for yourself and see what comes first see what comes first the illusory me or that sense of presence you need to see what comes first which can that sense of presence exist without the illusory me can it can that sense of presence exist without the conceptual final can't oh can't do you lose the illusory me i'm talking about yeah now can that illusory me exist without that sense presence no so what comes what's primary what's the subject or what's subjective and what's objective.

Yeah. And it's just, it really is just seeing that. And in the seeing of that, a natural shift, and it just happens by itself, like that grace that you experienced. There's just a natural shift. And you just naturally shift over into that sense of presence and that just drops away. And there's no doingness in any of that. It just happens. But how it happens, you've got to see the truth. You've actually got to really see finally, that final what's going on there. And I love what Nisargadatta, some fruit just falls off the tree and it's ripe. Other fruit takes a while to sow from Bob's teacher.

Okay. You know, there's nothing to do, nowhere to go, no one to do it. And it's all good. Because I love also what Kat said the other night. Everything is love. Can I ask? Yeah. And that's not just a little contrite statement of the fact. Go for it. Can I ask Bob, the thing that I know exactly, man, I'm so resonate with that feeling when there is that kind of when you do go beyond the mind and there is that kind of opening of whatever that is and or recognition. And I do have that feeling when that happens of like, okay, nobody move like, yeah, don't scare it away.

Like, because it's so nice and peaceful. But I can and I know what you're saying because you can't, I can't, I'm not awake, but I can't, I can't. Push it. Yeah, you can't like I don't want to touch it too much. Because I'll, I'll scare it away. And then this in the set like, yeah, like it happens in meditation, you sit some days and it's just like the most off like, I feel like I'm in a pressure cooker. And other days you see it and it's just like, Oh my god, I can't like and yeah, I see it very clearly that I didn't make either of those things happen.

It just kind of happens of its own accord. But I, I was driving with you today. And I had there was a very clear recognition. Of the simplicity of it at the end of the day, that kind of that non conceptual awareness, you just you're it like it just it is it and it's just like what do you say just this nothing else like it just you run out of words like it's it is it and but what happens to me is these thoughts come up because it sounds like this is so conceptually. worded but there's like, it sounds like it feels like there's different like facets to this thing like such an ender like being knowing and loving to be and I sit when that in that if you like non conceptual awareness and thoughts will arise around like, well, what about doership and what about love and what about like almost like have this checklist of like everything that should be there when what like or what I'm looking for.

And unless it fills off all those things. Well, this can't be us talk to cat about it the other day. And I so when. Because cat you said it to me, you said it's like you're desperately trying to find anything other than just this. Yeah. And a lot of mental processing is going on. Comparing the idea from what experience of meditation. You know. Oh, I was just I was just gonna ask like, how when you do your checklist? Yeah, you actually very thank you doing mental processing, you comparing whatever is with the dream with the ideas that you think how it should be. So this very, very subtle way where mind is processing information and doing a comparison.

Otherwise, how would you know there was no this is missing, this is missing that is missing. So you basically kind of bucking the mind. Yeah, what I wanted to ask you because I sit there. So the opening happens and I sit there and kind of go, Oh, amazing. And I go, don't touch it. Or like, don't like even even that fucks it up. But like, like you go don't touch and then I go, well, who wouldn't who wouldn't touch it and then like, just like, like, wreck it, you know, like, and I and I kind of think like, oh, this is and having said that there have been openings when like, there's just been an artist surrender of like everything and everything distraught.

It's all. Kind of guys. But the thought kind of arises for me, this is the big one that keeps fucking me if you like, like it goes like, well, how long will this because it's like you said, it's a reinforced belief, right? That I keep like, fuck, I like whatever. But how long will the the experience last? How long will the clarity last? How long will the you know, and then I find that. Unless it sticks and like it and it stays with me that I'm like, well, fuck, I fucking lost it again. Like, no, you only lost pleasure. When you ask how long all the butts and where is he going back into the belief is a separate entity.

Have a stop breathing and stop hardwitting. Life's going on. You have the life. A corpse can't have any of those thoughts or feelings or well, I was gonna last a time. They're all concepts. And that's what we tried. Nothing. Just settle down. And what's the breath? What's the breathing? What's the heart beating? And also, who is the one who has strong preference to song strong preference towards that openness to be there? See, there is and of course, it's totally understandable. I know how beautiful and how compelling and how freeing it is. But there is still a strong preference. Like if you are the life if you are the screen, the untouched screen of awareness, who is there to say I prefer clarity to mental chatter.

See, if you are completely at. Peace, whatever happens, whether there is quiet here or is open here or is noisy here, you don't care. Then the moment clarity comes, there won't be a contraction. Oh, my God, I'm going to lose it again. Because you are the awareness. You are the knowing of the clarity of the fog of the absence of clarity of anything as awareness. You are untouched. So you may look at this very, very subtle, very invisible acts aspect of slight preference towards that pleasurable open space. State and don't discard it. Of course, you can't do it. It's natural. You know, I prefer chocolate to whatever to beef as well.

I mean, it's okay. The cuts the dogs, they prefer certain sounds of certain tastes and we do prefer it. But just recognizing the preference and ah, there you are. Okay. I just I see you. I'm the awareness of it. Do you don't identify with the preference? You still the knowing of it? Mm hmm. Ask a question. Yeah. I'm kind of ready. Yeah. Kind of resonate with what you're saying, Max, and about those when you have those states and you want to, they're there and you know that if you do anything, it's going to mess it up. But you're trying to not do anything. So this is, yeah, this intention in there.

And for me, what we were talking about before about grace feels like it allows a bit of a surrender. Because if I feel like I'm the one that's responsible, I have to be the investigator. I have to see this. This pressures on me. I'm the duo. I'm the one that's responsible for this investigation. Then I feel like, well, I don't fuck this up because who knows when you get this chance again. But for me, that sense of grace is like, okay, well, I didn't bring this. Yes. And and maybe it'll come again. And that's not going to be me either. It's just an absence of me.

Yeah. Good point. Very, very important point. The grace is just an absence. Yes. Of the entity. Right. And it's not until we come out of it that we that we that we wouldn't label it grace. But whilst it's actually when that that may is absent, when it is absent, that's when it gets experienced. Right. Totally. That's that's that's where it is. That is true. And the only thing is the veil. Me is the veil. Me is the absolute veil. You know, if whilst it's being experienced, we're going, what is the mental chatter? Ah, this is grace. This feels awesome. This feels whatever. That's pure. Whatever is being experienced.

It's a concept. So that's what you were talking about before when you were saying grace is not such a helpful concept. Is that is that do I misinterpret? It's it look, it's a word. Yeah. You know, if I if I if I if I asked you to give your definition of what the word grace meant, and then I pointed to somebody else, say Kath, and I asked her to give her definition of what grace was and Fernando what his definition of what grace was, they wouldn't be the same. Yes. So they're concepts. Yeah. But it's not a clarification. It's not a sense of the me of separation.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's not a, you know, grace isn't a thing that is the same, that is perceived as being exactly the same by everybody. Like it's some gift that gets bestowed on us. And we wake up. And generally, that's how that word grace is interpreted. That it's something that. Well, it's sort of been a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think beyond that, it's a different concept. But but I, I look to nature. And I think that this little seed grows into an elm tree, and that little seed grows into an oak tree. And I am part of whatever is that life force.

And I am an oak tree, and you might be an elm tree. And I think this way. And I behave this way. And this is the body that I came with. And it's just what is. And so when I try to get into a state of something, a state of bliss or a state of freedom, or whatever, that's just what this oak tree does, you know. And and beyond that, beyond that is just this is the mind is not the mind is part is created by the life force. You know, so this mind is the oak tree mind and your mind is the elm tree mind.

And that's just the thoughts that come up. But beyond that, went beyond that is the life force that gives this and I've just grown this way, I don't have to figure it out or wonder why I've become an oak tree. You know why my branches go this way. Tree doesn't think that way. They just so you don't have to figure out why you're not an oak tree, and not like me or that, you know, so beyond that, the real connection is that there's a life force that's going to come out of that. And that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. A life force that's created everything.

Yeah. And and and and I just am and whatever thoughts go on. It's like I'm not you know, I'm that's just I can't tell that oak tree not to be an oak tree. You don't have to worry about thinking about it. You don't have to think I'm in the moment or I'm not in the moment or because there's something we're talking about the life force. that's created what you look like, your eyes, your everything, even your thoughts. So if we get caught up in the, I don't want to feel that, it's like, well, tough luck, because that's what's coming up in your life force. And there comes a moment sometimes where you just go, oh, God, it's all bullshit.

You know, I don't have a say in this. I'm just being what's created, and I am not the creator. I'm an expression of the creator, and I just happen to be this expression. And, you know, when that happens, you kind of, you know, that just being happens. And it's not a state of bliss, or it's not the mind stops thinking, but I'm not so grasping onto I want something. I want to be this, or I want to think that, or I want to feel that. It's like, oh, there's another. And somehow you just, you know, you just go, oh, well, this is this oak tree.

You know, this is what I am. That is very helpful. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's very beautiful. There's a beautiful text. I forget the name of it now. And he comes to realize it. It says, I am I who is conscious. All this is fictitious as a dream. What does it matter what I say, think, or do? Thinking thus, I just rest in it. It doesn't mean to say it won't stop. You'll be thinking it. What does it matter? You're not taking it on board or trying to fixate it. It hasn't become concrete as matter. Matter and spirit, and the spirit is a liquid. Matter is a solidity.

When it becomes solid, it's substantial. So, yeah. And what, yes. And what? You all. What I always say is we're unique patterns of energy. Yeah. Really understand that. You know, I can't be you. You can't be me. You know, we even can't be me. Can I just add something? That was beautiful, Cathy. Yeah. A common mistake that we make, a really common mistake that we make, is that this me identity, this me identity, we believe that it's me creating the me identity. It's me creating the thoughts. It's me that might get blocked or not get blocked. .