Sailor Bob - non duality - Bob on fire! 4 Oct 2018

Everyone knows each other I guess. No. No. Give the spiel. Give the spiel. Yeah, I got a nice constructive feedback from quite a few people to actually say less and sit in silence more about that. Yeah, you're getting all those sort of things from people. You heard a story about a man with his donkey, haven't you? Tell us the story. And his son, he's got a donkey and they're driving up to the market and the son's walking. Somebody comes along and he says, you're letting that little kid walk, put him on the donkey. So he puts him on the donkey, goes a bit further and somebody says, hey, that little boy's youth can give way to the old age.

You get on, you know. Let the little boy walk again. So. He got on, goes a bit further and somebody said, oh, that poor donkey. So they turn the donkey on its side and tosses it up with the legs and put a pole through it and they're both carrying the donkey. And in the end the donkey got pissed off and kicked his way out of it and jumped over the bridge and drowned. Nobody got him. That's what we do here. Yeah. No, it's not. I mean, yeah, you're right in many ways. But also that's the way the energy works. Like the life works in a way that nobody does anything.

The empty shells, egos are fictions, phantoms. So the empty shell of the body is doing whatever it is conditioned to do, is saying whatever it is conditioned to say and is resonating with whatever it is conditioned to resonate. So not everyone will resonate with the same way or same style or same even a vocabulary or way of waving the hands. But at the same time, the feedback. The feedback is the way life also influences and inspires itself. I mean, you know, that's... Cool. Yeah, you're good. Thank you. You get paid attention to it, why? It's a different type of... Only you're ever going to do in that moment.

That's, yeah, that's exactly right. And it creates every moment uniquely different and all the influences in it. Hi. What's your name? Fiona. Fiona. Fiona. Where did you hear about it? I was at a... I was at a retreat. You looked it up at all? Yeah. So you know what we're all about. Yeah. So we're not throwing it... We're not throwing you into the deep end. Yeah. Remember your soul was saved. Yeah, so it's only life and nobody who lives life. So it's only life expressing through everyone, inspiring through everyone. So if you get inspired or you get blamed or you get accused, it's also life.

If there is nobody here, there is nobody there either. So if there is life speaking to itself, that's what's happening. So it's not really about following everybody else's orders or advice and making a donkey drown, but it is just a play, just a dance of energy. So I can get the feedback from people and I'm still incapable to obey because this pattern has whatever, its own way of expression. And it may annoy the hell out of some and may enjoy others. There's nothing I can do about it. So non-duality, that's what it is about. It is about recognizing that one life expressing through an us everything.

So it's not that us life is nothing that I am not. And it's also nothing that I am exclusively. So I'm not exclusively the body. I'm not exclusively the mind. But ultimately as life, I express through an us everything. So when I'm nothing, this is wisdom. When I'm everything, this is love. That's Nisargadatta's famous quote. We had the conversation today with Germany. And the girl who was having the conversation with us, she never noticed there is a third person. There is a third line to that famous quote. The first one, when I'm nothing, this is wisdom. When I'm everything, this is love. Everybody knows. I even have it on my Facebook.

But there is a third line. And between those two, life flows. Life is moving between those two. Very often people ask question, OK, I understand. I am not the body. I'm not the mind. I understand. This is all nothing. But where is the joy? Where is the love? Everybody is talking, Oh, Ramana Maharishi is so enlightened, so loving. So in bliss. Well, if bliss or love was to be constant and still, it would be filtered out from the experience. It would be an equilibrium. Because all experiences are relative. So, as Nisargadatta says, between nothing and love, nothing and everything, wisdom and love, the life flows.

That's why they say it is ever fresh, always new. Because one moment there is equilibrium. Another moment there is a content, emotional content or physical content playing out. And yet another moment there is a joy or bliss. But it doesn't matter what the content is. Doesn't matter whether the content is pleasurable or is painful. What matters is moment to moment recognition that it all plays out as a content. And the basic screen is not changing. The basic screen is always there. So, you want to kick in something on the basic screen? Well, understand that it's all impersonal. The person is not reality. It never was, never will be or never could be.

And you know, no, that is recognized. Where did that label or word person come from? Didn't it come from persona, the mask? Only to you then, you've got this conceptual image or mask we've put upon ourselves when we've learnt words. And we're told we were so and so, Bob the Australian, the good fellow, the good little boy or man. That's become the imagined or conceptual person. So it's impersonal. You see that the person is not reality. There's no such thing as a person if you look into it. There's no such thing as an ego. People say, I saw the ego wasn't there but it came back.

How could something that wasn't there, never has been there or never will be there? It's only because we've taken the belief when we were children following our parents, what they told us when they told you, you're little Johnny or you're little Billy, you're a boy, you're a girl, you're this, that and the other. They're all words. Every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been learnt. You weren't born with any words. And never look at the word as the word the real. Is the word water? Can you drink the word? Can you drown in it? Can you swim in it? Can you wash in it?

You can't. Does the word fire burn your mouth? So when we look at this I or me, we put the me on it. And when comes me and mind, you know, as we say, my body, my mind. But don't you also say my house, my car, my coat? You know damn well you're not the house, car or coat. With a little bit of investigation you'll see you're not the body. And you're not the mind. They're just concepts, they're mental concepts that come upon that screen, point them out, which is empty and what it's called the cognising emptiness. And he made the statement that cognising is the knowing.

Anyone who's not knowing right now, anyone who's not being right now, who anybody was unaware right now, being, knowing, loving to be, isn't that sat-shit, Amanda? Isn't that sat-shit, Amanda, what they call that? I am that. I am not the body, I'm not the mind, I'm not any other thing other than that. Existence, consciousness, bliss. The other two factors are the nama-rupa, the name and form. The name is just a label, as I said. Chair, carpet, me, you, mirror, curtains, tree, flower, are all labels. And the word is not the thing, because you can't drink the word, you can't swim in the word, you won't burn with the word.

But that's our problem, we've taken the words to be real, to be the actual. It tells you in the Bible, in the beginning was the word. And that's what they actually say. And it tells you the word was with God, and the word was God. That's all God is, a word, a label is that. Nothing was made without him, without the word, all things that were made were made by him, by the word. And isn't that true? Haven't we put labels or words on everything? Even this idea that we are this human being. And we've got the concept that God is the supreme being. Take out the word, supreme, take out the word human, separate the beingness in this room if you can.

Anyone who's not being, anyone who's not aware of that being, isn't there anyone who's not loving to be? Isn't that a description of the statute of Nanda? Existence, consciousness, being, loving and loving to be. So you're already that, and always have been. But we've learnt these concepts in words and reinforced by appearance, skills, society. And reinforcing themselves all around us, and we've taken it to be real. And the energy of belief has gone on us and made it seemingly solid. And substantial. But look in there and see if you can, within you and see if you can find any word that is solid. Or has any substance to it.

And you'll realise when the Buddha told us there is no static point anywhere in this manifestation. You've got the static point of the I am, this body, mind. But it's not so. And also it said there is no self nature to anything. And we've taken ourselves as a personal self. And we're looking for self-realisation, self-liberation, self-awareness, self-knowing. But it's that one self that is liberation. The one self that's realised. It's not the egoic self, me. I think it's that personal self that's become a realiser. It doesn't happen. You've been seeking for 10, 20, 30 years. Why haven't you found it? Am I dawned on you like a dawn on me?

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction. And then when you realise it, I tell you again that the answer is not in the mind. Are you going to continue to look there? Then don't blame yourself. You're not getting anywhere. Or you're feeling touched by it. You're not getting there. What happens if you pause your thought? What happens when thought disappears when you go to sleep? What's the problem then? Or if you pause your thought right now and ask yourself what is wrong with right now and don't think about it? Without thought, without the word, can you say it's good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad? You can't without putting the word on it.

Putting that thing which we look at it closely, you'll see it's not the real. The word has no substance or any independent nature. That's, I tell you that in the Heng Seng Wing at the finish he says words, it goes through it all the great way. It's not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, the words love and hate are both absent. Everything is clear and undisguised. Like the smallest decision, the distinction however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. They're divided the two. Now can heaven, which is the sky or space, be separate from the earth?

Can this earth be separate from that? Isn't the earth floating around in it? So they're not separate at all, only when we're discriminating with the mind. And it finishes up words. The way is beyond language. It's beyond the language, because in it there's no yesterday, no tomorrow, and no today. And isn't that so? Where is yesterday now? It's just a memory. If it's not being recalled, you can't even tell me what went on yesterday. You've got to bring that memory into the present. And so it's a present thing again, as soon as it's brought to the present. And where's the future? You'll say, I'm going to do this when I leave here, or tomorrow, or something.

Rejection. But what can you do about that right now? Is there a future? There's a future if you're not thinking about it. When you are anticipating and imagining something, it's so-called future. People say you've got to try and stay in the now. I'll say try and get out of it. You have never ever or ever will be out of this moment. It's just spontaneous. Spontaneity means it's got no beginning. Look at the word now. When does it begin? Well, to think of it as beginning, you can't say, it began last week, or it began last Friday, or it began 30 years ago, or it began a moment ago.

Because you're putting it back out of there and into time. But the word is beginning now. And even as it's beginning, it's got no time to it. It's disappearing. It's ending. So it's a spontaneous, beginningless, endless eternity. But we've got those words on it, and we give it the seeming concept of time. And that's what we're bound in, the concepts. And the Buddhists tell you, it's non-conceptual awareness. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. The great perfection. What can you do with perfection? Can you add anything to the perfection? If you could add anything to it, it wouldn't be perfect. Can you take anything away from the perfection?

If you took anything away from it, it wouldn't be perfect. Or they say it is the absolute. The same with the absolute. What can you add to the absolute? If you could add anything to it, it wouldn't be the absolute. What can you take away? Can't take away. So wouldn't that really, if you are being, knowing, and loving to be right now, you must be that absolute. Who is the seeker, and what is there to seek? You've taken on this conceptual image about yourself, believing it to be real, and we look for an answer in the moment. We look for an answer in the mind, where the answer is not.

The answer is not in the mind. So it's pointless looking there. That's what we point to you and ask you to look along the nose, and see for yourself. The Buddha told you it's a cognising emptiness. It doesn't mean that we are cognising emptiness, but the emptiness that's confusing that pattern right now is cognising. The knowingness is in that pattern you call you. You're not saying, when you say, I know, you're just translating something that's already happening. So it's the emptiness that is cognising. The cognising, he made the statement then that emptiness is form. The nama rupa, the other two factors of the, is name and form.

And they tell you, the nama rupa, the name and form, are maya. They are illusion. The nama rupa, the maya, is illusion. And they tell you again, it's a phenomenal manifestation. Look up your dictionary, look up the word phenomena. The definition of phenomena is that which appears to be. And isn't this appearance thing real right here? But it's only appearance. Break it down and see. That thing you call a body, what's it made up of? You'll see it's made up of elements, fire, water, space, just like the elements around you. Separate yourself from those elements if you can. Stop breathing. See how long you'd last without that long of air.

Stop drinking water. See how long you'd last without that long of water. Take the body temperature away. See how long you'd last without that, you could hyperthermia and disappear. Get off the earth if you can. You can't separate yourself from the earth. Get out of space. You can't. When you investigate these things, the whole ideas or concepts that we've carried around all these years, start to fall apart. And the old scripture saying is, know the truth and the truth will set you free. What are you free of? You can only be free of these conceptual beliefs that we've taken on and reinforce with its constant repetition without questioning.

That's what the questioning is. Investigation. The false cannot stand up to investigation. Keep looking into the false and investigate it, it'll fall apart because it cannot stand up. And what happens then? Well, you're left with another great statement. Know the truth and the truth will set you free. Nothing else is going to set you free but knowing the truth. And you can not only know the truth but recognise I am that truth. I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am not the thoughts, the feelings or the emotions. They're all appearing on this conceptual pattern that I've taken to be real. And see that.

Existence, consciousness, bliss, art. Anyone in this room who is not existing right now, if you're not existing you must be that existence. Anyone in this room who is not conscious right now, then you realise I am conscious. So you must be that consciousness. Anyone who is unhappy to be right now, doesn't want to be, want to be dead, no you don't. You love to be. So you are that Sat Chit Ananda. And on that Sat Chit Ananda, you are the Nama River, the name and form. But seeing the name and form are mire or illusion, you're going to keep, you can utilise them. But what they're doing to them because we believe them, they've been utilising us.

Telling me I'm not good enough or I'm fearful or I'm unhappy or I'm depressed or I'm anxious. And after all, the worst way we put it is we say, after all I'm only human. Bullshit. You're just being, you're not the human being. Negate the beingness. If you want to know the things you're thinking, you know, negate your beingness. Say I am not. You can say I am not for the rest of your life. But the very fact you're able to say it, doesn't that imply that I am and I must be that knowing. I must be that being. I must be that loving to be.

You know, that will do me for a while. Gosh, I'm so happy you're speaking with that fire. I feel like crying. Thank you. Do it, don't drink me. Yeah. Okay, that's, gosh, he said it all. But I'll just highlight the most important things. The answer is not in the mind. What's wrong with right now if you don't think about it. This is all words. Take away labels. Take away words. Where are you problem? What are you? Who are you? And non-conceptual awareness. Try to be aware without concepts. Now we can fall into that silence. Yeah, really. Every pointer points out to this basic screen. Well, have a look.

When did you begin? You'll say I began at birth. But can any one of you actually remember your birth? You can't. You don't remember anything till you're about two, two and a half when the capacity of reasoning started with you. Before that you didn't know any words yet you couldn't reason. So you can't say you began at your birth because you don't remember. But look at it. When did you begin? Well, go back as far as your mother. That pattern, shape and form you call your father enabled in that pattern to the prana, the energy and the air he's eating and the food he was eating.

In that pattern enabled a little microscopic particle called the sperm to form in it. You can't see it with the naked eye. Yet it is full of life. Full of intelligence. And the same thing in your mother. The essence of the prana, the breath, the food she ate enabled in that pattern, shape and form, a little microscopic particle called an ovum or an egg to form in that pattern. And that ovum was to fuse with intelligence. It knew what to do. It attached itself to the wall of the uterus. And the sperm, a little microscopic thing you can't see, knew what to do. It swam to the ovum.

Implying it was to fuse with the innate intelligence. It could swim. It could move around. And the ovum was to fuse with the intelligence of attaching itself to the wall of the uterus. It knew where to swim to. It knew to pierce the ovum. When those two came together, that cell doubled. The innate intelligence doubled that cell. Doubled it again. You can call that intelligence, if you like to use the term, the god, the godliness in you. I don't use that term. God, because you can get confused with that term. Purely and simply, we all come from different traditions, different backgrounds. Some of you might be atheists.

Some of you are agnostics. Some of you are Christians. Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist Jews. If you start talking about god, you're related to what the traditional belief is. And so lose sight of it, because you'll take on their concept of what they think is. I call it intelligence energy. And intelligence energy, I mean the activity. Intelligence is knowing. The activity of knowing. You are knowing right now. And that knowing is a movement. It's an activity. The activity of knowing. So when that little fetus began to form, what were you doing about it then? If you think you're running the show as just personal. You just said, I've got to beat my heart.

I've got to grow my hair and fingernails. I've got to digest my food. You couldn't say anything, because even the brain wasn't forming then, and you didn't have any words. But the life essence was there, expressing through that pattern. And when you came out of the womb, did you know anything about that? That's why you can't remember your birth. No, because you had no words at that stage. And it wasn't until about two, two and a half, and a capacity of reasoning developed in you. And that capacity of reasoning is a capacity of these human forms, which is more developed than what it is in other birds, animals, or insects.

They don't have the same capacity. Like a bird has a capacity of eyesight. Much better than yours or mine will ever be. And it has the capacity of flying. Which we can't do. But through the capacity of reasoning, we've learned to build ourselves glasses, binoculars, or telescopes, which enable us to see better. And through the capacity of reasoning, we've learned to build ourselves planes, helicopters, kites, and balloons, and things like that, that enable us to fly. The dog has a sense of smell. It can smell much better. The capacity of smelling is much better than you and I can. It can smell drugs and all this sort of thing.

What is chameleons can change color. They can't do that. Insects can... There's grubs and nuts can build little cocoons around themselves and then change into caterpillars or whatever, or butterflies and things like that. We can't do those things. But this capacity of reasoning has enabled us to do a lot of things. But it is that same capacity of reasoning when you're telling yourself, I'm not good enough, I'm fearful, I'm giving you all the psychological crap we carry on with. It's all psychological bullshit. Your fear, your anger, your superstitions, your resentments, your guilt, your shame, your depression. They are not necessary because they come about because of the belief we are this separate entity.

What would you know about fear and anger if you... There's sensations, presence sensations. If you hadn't learned the word fear, you've had this fear and you put the sensation that was pointed out to you, what you're seeing when you're very... This one is fear. The next sensation might be anger. The next sensation might be depression. We put all these labels on these sensations instead of seeing them fresh and new. So as soon as they crop up now, this one is fear. Instead of seeing it fresh and new, we unload all the previous fears we've had and load it on and see how it builds up into something solid and substantial.

All the previous anger. All the previous other things we've had. All the previous... All the psychological crap we've got. It's believed we load it onto this conceptual idea of me. Of my self. When you realize this is the one self, it's not a personal self, you say my body, my mind, my house, my car. You know you're not the house, the car. Are you the body and the mind if it's my body, my mind? When it comes to my mind, we say my self. So we've attributed the self to this personal concept of me or mine. And the Saga and Ramana Maharshi tells you that when you ask the question, what am I?

And he says you go through it all and see that me or my, you can't find it, there's nothing there until you realize there's only I, I. So it's the I self. Not a personal self, not my self. I, not my liberation. It's the self liberation they tell you. It's self shining, ever fresh, presence awareness. It's not the personal self at all. It's the one self. It's the self that's liberated. It's the self that's seeing. It's the self that's shining. It's the self that is aware. But we don't see it's all happening by itself, to itself and as itself. But we put the person on it and take the person to be reality.

And the person never was, never will be. And that's what we call the ego, the self-centered ego. And that becomes a reference point. We're always relating to this personal self, this ego. And don't you see that relativity or relationship is duality? And the ancients point out that there is absolutely no duality in non-duality. There can't possibly be. And if there's no duality in non-duality, then there's no duality in non-duality. Can there be duality without non-duality? Can there be non-duality without duality? And there's just two sides of the one coin. They're not separate at all. The sense of separation, the sense of division is the cause of all our problems.

We believe we are individuals. What's individual mean? Does it mean undivided? What's universal mean? Does it mean undivided again? We divide these things up with the word. In the beginning was the word. And it didn't begin until the word came. Until you recognize the word is not the real, it can be utilized. You can use, well, I'm using words now. They're not what I am in reality. For a long time I believed they were. And for a longer time I believed they're not so. I don't believe they're not so. I know for a fact that the word is not the thing. That there is no me here.

Though it seemingly crops up as what you would call the me, leave it as it is. Now have a look at that. Where are yesterday's thoughts now? They still there? No, they've moved on. Now you see there's no thought fixated in your head. They're transient. Like they tell you this manifestation is transient. It's constantly changing. And that body you walked into this room is not the same body you walked into the room. There are thousands of cells dying right at this moment. And being replaced right at this moment. Is it the same body you had ten years ago or five years ago or three weeks ago?

We recognize it's not. But yet it seems to be the same essence. And it is the same essence that's living it, expressing it through it and thinking it. Same words we're using and things like that. And putting the same erroneous beliefs in it because we never question it. Question it and see the truth. And see that freedom that's there in some edgy sea. Thank you. Wow. Now I know how to make him speak. I'll threaten him with silence. I might be like Nostargadal. My silence sings and my emptiness is full. Have a look at that. Aren't those singing streams going on in your memory now if you're not thinking?

Playing little tunes in your head or... Like all the still small voice might be given. Putting insights into your mind. But we think we think. We believe we think. But thinking is happening. And you say I think. As soon as you say I think you've formed a subject. A thinker. Who is thinking this thought. And the thought you're thinking becomes the object. So thinking has been divided into subject-object. Duality. But can there be a thinker without thinking? Try it and see. There can't be. Can there be the thought without thinking? So thinking has never been divided. Only conceptually. You're seeing right now and you say I see.

I see the chair. I see the carpet. So I see has become the subject and the carpet has become the object. Dualism. Where have they taken place? In the seeing. And can there be a subject, a seer, without seeing? There can't be. Can there be an object, a seen, without seeing? There can't be. So it's never ever been divided. Look at it and see this. And know for a certainty that you are the indivisible one without a second. That. What they call that. And see what they've done with it. That's a chair. That's a carpet. That's a mirror. That's the curtains. That's you. That's me.

We all know it's that but we put label on it. Chair, carpet, you, me. The discriminated. The discriminated that switch to that which can't be discriminated. It doesn't have to happen. Because if it's being discriminated here right now, and knowing the truth about it, am I bound to do it? I'm certainly not. And I can call you an arsehole or something like that. I'm not bound in that. But if you take delivery of it, it's going to affect you. Simple. Nothing simpler than one. And it's not even one. If we want to put one, that's why they say it's one without a second. We put that one without a second because even the idea of one implies that there could be other than one.

And take that implication off and say it's only the, you can't even call it one, it's just as it is. And what is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Everything is just as it is. Any changes that need to happen are the is-ness expressing. Not you or me trying to do something. And there's constantly changing. There's constant changing in the manifestation. But the basic screen, the silence and the stillness of which it all appears on, has never ever changed. You've got a movie on the screen. Cowboys and Indians in it all getting shot up and everything. What's happened to the screen? Has it ever been contaminated or corrupted by the things that appear in it?

It hasn't. Has that stillness and silence ever been corrupted by any of the sounds and the activity or the wars and the movements that are taking place? It hasn't been touched. You can't touch the space. The space all around you, cut it. Tells you the fire can't cut it, burn it, the water can't drown it, the wind can't dry it. Nothing can touch it because it contains all of those things. Nothing can contain it. What is contained is it is mire or illusion. But it's never touched the screen. And you are that screen. The stillness and the silence. What's the very first thing you see?

If you haven't looked at it, you'll say I see you or I see this. The very first thing to think close to your eyes is the space. And you look out from that and you see all these things that are appearing in it are contained in that space. There's nothing you can postulate or think of that can be outside of space. So what must you be? You must be that space. And which is this body, mind, appearance is appearing in it. And it couldn't appear outside of the space so it must be the space actually. Appearing as something solid. Which it never was, never will be or never could be.

Beautiful. Please. And it's to do with I think or I'm the thinker. Most of our life we believe that we are the thinker or I think. And yet, we're not. And yet, if we come back to, even if we just look at two of the senses, the smelling sense and the taste sense that we have. Something, you know, rather very, very self-centered comes up when we say I smell. Do I? Yeah? That's usually how we interpret that. But it's pretty, pretty easy. It's pretty, pretty easy to, you know, if I say I'm the smeller, I'm responsible for the smelling as such. Try and stop that.

Like try and stop, you know, if I put a blindfold on your face and put some very, very unpleasant smells under your nose, switch that off. We can't switch that off. Like we can't switch off the thinking. I think the Buddhist called the thinking the sixth sense. You know, I remember a long time ago coming to that understanding that thinking is just another sense. Like seeing, feeling, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. But we take it personally and think it's mine, you know, which is what I'm trying to point out now. And it's the same as the taste buds. Yeah? I taste. Really? Try not tasting. Yeah?

I'm the taster. You know, it implies that there's a choice there, that I'm the taster. And I can taste this or I can taste that. Really? Put something pretty unpleasant in your mouth and try not tasting that, you know. And it's the same if you look at it. It's the same with all senses. Yeah? And I don't have any control over my taste buds. I have no control over my sense of smell. I have no control over my sense of hearing. I can't choose to not touch. And I can't choose to not see. Even if I close my eyes, I see. I see an absence.

Or, you know, I see a darkness. There's still seeing that's occurring. Like I can't eliminate seeing as such. There's something else that you said too, which I just went, oh, that's so cool. What about if you concentrate? What about if you're concentrating on something though, you do block out the senses then? Really? Really? Yeah. I don't care how much. No, if you're watching something and you listen, you don't hear what's going on if you're concentrating on that. Really? Yeah. You're focused on it. No, I mean, I'm not saying me. I'm saying if concentration's happening. Yeah, you're focused on something instead of the overall function. Yeah.

You're missing out that total bit. Hmm. I can get sound recall once I notice looking past a train station and then hearing the sound a couple of minutes later, oh, it did go past. But even so, you're concentrating on it, you still see a car go past outside. Correct. Or other thing, you do. No, but if you're concentrate, like you're watching a TV show or something, and you're fully involved in the story, you don't hear the noise outside. Because somebody rings a bell or something, you're there and get to know it. Yeah, I don't know. Even if you're focusing on your personal story or your personal drama, you are missing out.

But it doesn't mean that this is not registered. No, I'm not saying that it doesn't go in. I'm just saying you're not concentrating. You're going to get hypnotized and they will ask you every little detail and you will find that it has been registered. Yeah. But even if you're talking about being engrossed in a movie, like you said, you're still engrossed in the sound coming from the movie. Yeah, of course you are. Yeah. Like, choose to not hear that whilst it's there, whilst it's... If something's burning in the kitchen, you may actually smell it and run away. No, well, I've had the case where I haven't done that and it has burnt, you know.

Anyway, it's an observation. Well, you may get drunk and your senses will be somehow sedated also, but it is not, you know... That's what you've got to do, Robin. You can do it yourself instead. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. We can't do it. Yeah, of course, of course. But it's wonderful that you are questioning it because that's the attitude that we actually promote here. Encourage, yeah. Debate everything because it has to be. It's important. Yeah. I remember the other thing that came up. If there is some kind of understanding that goes on and we make the statement, I am one, I've arrived, I am one, straight away that implies two.

Yes. Straight away it implies two, you know. What I come to see or come to realize is that in seeing and in the absolute knowing, I am nothing, that implies one. The nothingness is one. But if I'm sort of scooting around going, yeah, I've got this, I'm just one, I'm everything and, you know, blah, blah, blah, it implies two, me claiming to have one. Or even seeing one or even understanding one. Don't know where that come from. That just came out, just came up, there it goes. Let that land wherever it's going. Well, they put one without a second because any idea of one implies it could be other than one.

Yeah. That's why we say you start in the fact whether you know it or not. You already are that. Start in that fact. But we don't. We start in the fact that we're this human being. We put ourselves on a handicap behind the eight ball for a start up. If you give a bloke a hundred yards start, it's going to be hard to catch. We've got this concept that we're this poor, miserable human being that's got to become something. Just say this, I'm already that, whether I know it or not. And then you'll have a look and see what's stopping you. One without a second, not two.

I think the other thing too that I think really confuses people is... Are you a cat? You know, we say that... And I'm guilty of it, I've said it. And I've even heard Bob say it. That me has got to go. And, you know, that would imply that if I woke up and Bob woke up, Max woke up, Cat woke up, and Robin woke up, and me was completely, completely, completely absent, we'd all be manifesting exactly the same way. We'd all just be this kind of presence blob. Or just this speechless awareness. Not even any communication would happen. It'd just be this, I am. We'd all be sitting there just going, yep, I am too.

What about you, mate? Yeah, I am. And that would be the end of it, you know. But there is a certain patterning. If you like, a patterning of energy. Or you could even call it a personality, if you like, that happens here. And there's one that happens there. And there's one that happens there, there, there, there, there. You know, with everybody in the room. And I think we get this idea that for me to completely go, so too goes the personality. Or so too goes the way this patterns. And it's not the case. What is seen through is the personal... Ownership of personality. Yeah, we take the me to be only what I am.

This is it, and this is only what I am. And I'm here, and everything else is out there. Even my thinking is kind of, I can see that. If you've been around long enough, you can see that. You can see that, you know, I'm not that. Yet, I still feel like there's me here. You know, this... This core sense of... Of a me. And, you know, the... The... The truth is, in the end, what you see, what you actually come to see is, I am, without any fucking doubt, me. But not just that. It's not just that. There is a pattern in here. There is a personality here.

You know, things I see funny and quirky, other people might not. You know, but that's... That's how I function. But when that personal identity drops off that sense of me, so as you lose the... The isolation, the isolation that we experience when we're so caught up in that personal me, that personal identity, when that drops off, all the psychological baggage that we've been carrying about that personal me drops away. It doesn't mean... And when that happens, it doesn't mean I don't feel. It doesn't mean I don't get upset. It doesn't mean I don't experience sadness. It still happens. But it's something that happens in the moment and it's directly related to whatever it is that's happening in the moment rather than it being directly related to whatever it was I've experienced.

Is that reasonable, Bob? Yeah. Yeah. So that can get really confusing. Oh, me's got to go. I've got to become absent. You know? It's just the identity with this personalised me that's got to go. I am that, but I'm everything else as well. But there's no... You know, if I'm everything else as well, you don't take... The me doesn't take credit for that. It's just that I'm the me. I'm the me. The me doesn't take precedence. It doesn't take centre stage. It's just also something that functions and just something that happens. If I'm not the doer, which is what we're talking about, of any of the thinking that goes on, when one wakes up, it doesn't make them a...

That doesn't make them the doer after that of whatever it is that goes on. It still stays the same. We still just are being lived. We're still awakening and post-awakening. It's the same. We're still being lived. Just that personal ownership of this is me. That gets seen and that drops away. And there's still going to be a personality here. Hello. I haven't gone anywhere. Oh, no, Bob hasn't gone anywhere. He's trying to. Isn't there another word for that? For what? For what you're saying. It's called humility. No? I mean, if you look at all the great spiritual people, it's one thing they have in common.

They don't have this persona, do they? They don't have this kind of extremely... Their personality is, they're just extremely humble and they have a great sense of humility. Look at that word, humility. Some people think they can be very proud of their humility, but they're not because, first off, it's humility and then� it means having the energy to accept somebody, to be humble, The true humility is when there's no one there to be the humble or proud. In the scriptures again they call it Shiva Shakti depicted in the Hindu. Shiva, the static aspect, that's like the screen. Shakti is Kosaka, they put it as a consort, as his partner, that's just ways of putting it.

Shakti, his partner, dances. Shakti is energy, it vibrates and the world appears. That's all the world is, the dance. Shakti appearing, vibrating into different patterns, shapes and forms. And there couldn't be one without the other. There couldn't be a world without the dynamic aspect of it. There couldn't be the dynamic aspect without the static aspect. So it's one and the same expressing as everything. . And this leads me to a question. What's the difference between the me ego and personality? You answer it because you are setting a definition now. I've been arguing with people around this stuff because some people actually believe that ego and personality are one and the same thing.

And what we're saying here is that ego is a phantom, is a fiction, the one who owns personality, the one who says that I'm the doer of deeds, that I'm the seer of sin, that I own the personality. This is my body, my character, whatever. But what is your definition of the ego? Because that is the real question. Well, I guess it comes down to your personal identity, who I think I am, is where I put it. That's the trouble, the person, it's impersonal. Yeah, that's right. So the person. But where does the personality, like it's still a person type of thing. It's not a person.

It's a person. It's a person. Right. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. It's a person. But that's the ego. Yeah. There's a pattern, if you like. Yeah, there's a pattern, shape and form. There isn't much wrong with that to compare it. All of a sudden, you see, every so-called thing in this manifestation is a pattern, shape and form. Why I'm a rupper. Yes. I am involved. And also, do you have dog or cat? Cat. You have cats, don't you? Don't they have personality? Yeah, they do.

They do. Do they have ego? In your definition. No. I don't think they do. happened to them yesterday or three weeks ago and do they say the world is against them do they have this psychological suffering that comes from commentary no but they still have personality they still like some things and don't like the other things so personality and as terry said you know the diversity in which that one essence expresses that fact that everyone is uniquely different there is no the same two rainbows are not the same two snowflakes or fingerprints that's actually ah how beautiful is that but now taking the ownership of the pattern that's where the problem starts where the suffering starts because now i say okay i'm not good enough as i am i should be nicer i should be prettier i should be younger and richer or whatever and then people should like me and then you know my value depends on how many of them likes me if someone rejects me i'm suicidal and all that crap this is all coming from identification so now i could say that personality pattern is completely impersonal i mean just as much as the character of the cat or dog is not really personal it is formed by by the environment you know they are they are traumatized dogs or cats when when they have to fight for survival and they are relaxed spoiled coach dogs or cats so they have different personalities and they formed out with the body they grow the personality the response behaviors grow with the body so you can say i guess the personality is your responses to stimulation like your automatic responses if you like or spontaneous responses is that even even learned and conditioned responses also yeah because you know the personality the way it forms like you know survival strategies when you were a child and you are rewarded for laughing rather than crying you you most likely to further in life just try to laugh rather than cry because your chance chance of reward will be bigger so now you create certain preferences in behavior and it's like a big database it's like a computer and then you become you know like tendency will be rather this way than that way also your taste in food and music and all of that is kind of conditioned slowly it's not completely spontaneous it's like dance of the frequencies you have so many influences on you you can't just laugh and you can't just cry you can show it to yourself or you can't handle whatever atmosphere i give away you can give that they automatically shift over at some point but you can create things for yourself or your character and the foolish myths and thee sausage helps you to change on the Th 귪əiston so i fish totally well so this these likes and dislikes let's call it life storytelling or agent in between.

It's either, you know, empty shell and the life outpouring through whatever, you know, this sound of the voice is available, this is not through this body, so it outpours through this one, an accent, whatever. But now, if there is an agency in between, like, oh no, no, there is a me, I'm speaking, I'm having this voice, I'm having this body, now this agency suddenly will assume responsibility and will start judging it and will start taking it personally and will start trying to alter, fix, modify, correct, do something about it. And this is where the suffering lies. Because if anything, you know, if there is no agency, if there is no one in between, that life expressing through whatever available means or patterns, who is going to resist what is?

Who is going to say, oh, I should be different? Like, I don't care, how, you know, if that's just an empty shell with the patterns programmed into it, what does it matter whether it is good or bad or nice or not nice, whether someone likes it or doesn't? It doesn't matter. But if there is an agency that has the preference and that takes ownership and that takes responsibility and shame and guilt, ouch, that's when it hurts. It's probably a little wonder, I mean, the projection also becomes, like, you use the projection sometimes. And so, like, the animal has fairly basic projections going on. So you might believe that food coming this way is going to end up in the dog's mouth and not, you know, in the human's or whatever.

And there might be a bit of response to make that happen in a bit of some kind of, it's a series of images. And human beings is a bit more complex, so. Because they have words. Yeah. Human beings have stories. But here I'm talking about in that in-between space where there's not a lot. Absolutely. Of ownership, before ownership. So you might get human beings who aren't doing a lot of ownership most of the time, but they may still project. The series of images from the past might pop up that that seems to be reasonable to assume whatever. This is a bit more complicated than an animal.

Before real kind of ownership or caring what happens comes in. And so a set of responses and reactions to that and use of that is, you know, that needs to sit in a sort of like a building. Yeah. So you might have a set of responses that can be used to say that this is not a matter of ownership. Yeah. Is there a way that you can actually say that that's not a matter of ownership? Yeah. So, yeah, this is a really interesting point, to think about. I mean, this is not a matter of ownership. But it's not a matter of ownership. Right. So, you know, I think of the way that we tend to think about these kinds of behaviors or answers or whatever, you know, that comes out.

Maybe still without much ownership. But this gets interesting there, that area of where projection slips over into ownership or, because projection must be in the animals, too, you know? Yeah. But this is actually a very good point and this is a really important point. Like, how day like really is it is it all the time all about me suffering when i'm busy working i don't have time to think about it bob says what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it nothing when i'm busy eating dinner how much suffering is there like as you say whenever when the when the ownership doesn't sink in we are basically just functioning spontaneously there's nothing really going on only when that ownership comes in the taking credit comes in and start translating and that's where there's also that fuzzy area with belief that fine line of belief in there too like so if the projections which are the natural natural images that turn up in response to the environmental stimulus at the time you know the images that have been in the past or whatever they just pop up i mean that you know memories memories still turn up yeah yeah and um but then if there's a slight belief that that one is is the case you know knowing of the case when it might not be the case or not that you can say anything is the case or not the case but you know this this the area where slight belief comes in and it's i guess it's a subtle form of ownership but maybe it's even less than that maybe it's just a series of images and it is and that's a good point too you know and this is where you know that little subtlety that you're talking about bob actually uses the the word which is also just the word the pointer is not it energy of belief the energy of belief you have random thoughts random memories just floating through the screen of of awareness and then suddenly some of them are owned some of them are believed oh yeah this is how it is and now the the the world gets dense and heavy and real it's not dreamlike anymore it gets...

it because of the energy of belief. And of course it's not an energy, it's the same energy as you call whatever life, intelligence energy or… . Yeah, you can call it contraction, whatever. It's not that energy of belief is any different than any other energy because this is all just energy, like Bob says, you know, intelligence. . Yeah. But it's a good analogy. It actually gives it that distinction if somebody doesn't get, you know, stopped with the word, thus really illustrate beautifully when the potentiality becomes heavy, becomes believed, becomes real, like the, you know, the ideas of, the ego is believed, like Santa Claus has been believed, like flat earth has been believed.

And when it has been believed, when it has been kind of, you know, charged with that life essence and became solid, that's where, that's where the… Yeah. the pain came into a picture and again that's okay too. It's like a doctor might have a leg move in a particular way, 90% of the time it's meant one thing and then 10% of the time it actually means something entirely different but the doctor doesn't know that. So it's really just a response to any past kind of images and it could be the same with what people are saying, what's really going on inside them and all this sort of stuff.

Ownership really is prior to ownership in a way. It can be. I guess if it's not held onto in any way. That's what Terry was saying. What Terry was saying, before enlightenment, choked wood, carried the water, after enlightenment, choked wood, carried the water. It's just that idea that now I am doing it that drops off. It doesn't mean that anything else drops off. So if you have the, you know, think sensitive. sensations, memories, anything floating through the field of awareness. And then even the ownership floats through the field of awareness, but you still kind of see them as clouds. They don't become real. The dream doesn't become reality.

It pops up momentarily, but it's spotted sooner, really, because it still pops up. Exactly. It pops up and pops up, there's ownership and ownership. Yeah, they pop up. So what? I mean, this is what Bob is saying. Pop up how quickly they are recognized. Because usually the suffering comes up from the fact that, okay, I'm the person, I'm inferior, I'm feeling anxious, and nobody questions that, and it goes over for years, for a lifetime. But if the idea, the thought, the feeling, the emotion comes up and is not labeled, it's just a sensation. But okay, label pops up also. Now the emotion, the surge of the energy, the vibration is recognized, label is recognized, label.

Now this is happening to me. Okay. The thought was just a thought. Now, but this is really serious, that's just another thought. If things like that, whatever shows up on the screen, are recognized for what they are, dream became, it stays, it stays light. It doesn't get solid. And if it does get solid when something really, really painful happens, it doesn't stay solid. Because it may take longer, maybe. How much, we had an argument a few days ago. Oh, gosh, it was probably over. 45 minutes or something that we didn't really even look the same way. But it was fun. It was light in the argument, because even the disruption that came about was kind of yummy.

It was, it was refreshing. It was a new sort of a sensation showing up. And there was no resistance towards that there was no need or urge to fix it. It was just sitting with that new energy. And when you leave it as it is unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected, in no time, it will fall away, it will change. Not because you want to get rid of it, but because change is the only constant. Everything always changes. And there may or may not be some kind of looking at that for what it is in a way, then it drops away faster, it doesn't come back. And it may or may not, it won't matter either way, but there may or may, if no ownership is in the equation.

Exactly. No matter either way. Yeah. Because if you don't want it to go, it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't. Kat, I wanted to ask you something. The thing that, I had this moment sitting on a balcony not too long ago, and I really got a sense of what you were talking about, or what Bob talks about when you say, if there's nothing to relate to, or no body to relate to, then there's nothing to kind of, you know, worry about, or get upset about, or suffer about. And it kind of, I had a real sense that the, although, fuck it, I had a real sense that the person really dropped away.

But I can't help but think about what you said when you said that if it was never real, how could it come back, or how could it, but it fucking does. Like, the... I feel like I've asked you this before, but it feels like this clarity that kind of comes and goes and comes and goes, and now I feel like it's getting to the stage where whenever I have these kind of moments of openings and kind of feelings of one, I'm kind of like, oh, for fuck's sake, like it's coming again and it's going to go again, and like... What exactly comes back when you say the person comes back?

What exactly comes up other than thought and sensation? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. That's... It's very clear that that's all it is. Thoughts and sensations. So are you the thought and sensation, or are you the one who is aware of it? I feel like, I don't know what I am, but I feel like I go effect of the sensation. I don't feel like I am the sensation. I'm like the perceiver. Like I feel the sensation. Yes. I, like, but... Sensation is an object. I don't feel like I am the sensation. Yeah, exactly. It's appearing on that screen that you climb it. It's appearing on that screen. Yeah.

It's a person. Who climbs it? Person comes back. But person doesn't come back. Only thought and sensation come back. The person... I don't... I feel like this is wrong, but in my direct experience, like the person is like a feeling. Yes. The person is like... Ok. So feeling comes back. Yeah. Not a person. Feeling. Yeah. I feel like I've seen it to death that, like, thoughts come and go. Like I'm like, oh, man, honestly. Like... Uh-huh. But that sense of me. like since I was in the body yeah that's kind of that's right Robin it's more like that it's and I said this to you last time I was here but like and when I've had those moments of openings that drops away at all kind of but like and then it does come back like I can't help I mean why would you not want sensations in the body they cool they great let sensations in the body come up I suppose I'm again I don't know what I am but I am very identified with those feelings like they feel very familiar and very me like you know yes but you are describing them right now so you're not them that's right they feel familiar yes same much as you know the smell of a grass feels familiar how long you been great reinforce you don't believe in the moment so certainly it's gonna come back to you and you're gonna be able to see it and you're gonna be able to see it and you come back to me look there is a sensation that you call familiar because because of the memory because you've seen it before you felt it before and it feels like this is me that feeling of separation yeah feeling do you even label it feeling of separation yeah so you are feeling of separation is the object in the awareness is what appears on the screen of awareness you even describing it you even know the taste of it like when you taste the mango are you the mango now you taste the separation are you the separation it is just another way it expresses itself now because you wanted it to go you don't want to feel it you resist it of course you're just putting fuel on the fire how about you welcome it oh that's another cloud we'll see how long it will last this time let it be here i'm not that i'm seeing it yes it feels like it is in my god yes it feels like this is so close to me that oh my god it feels like this is who i am but i'm the one who is describing it i can't be it and see how much you don't want it just notice how much you don't want it how much you hate that damn feeling i know this damn feeling i don't want it it's girl just feel the feeling and feel the resistance towards the feeling how you want to push it away because by this resistance now you say that the very resistance is what you are i don't want it who doesn't want it it's that pushing it away that keeps it there can you see it that actually that you are resisting this feeling that this is something that you really resent that you know in in your experience this is so unpleasant it's like bitter medicine i don't want to take it i don't want to have it life intelligence the beauty the god they want to feel that feeling of separation but you don't well you won't win you have to surrender because that's what the life is wanting to experience right now if you see it as a cloud and you let it be and as bob says leave it don't touch it leave it unaltered unmodified uncorrected see how quickly it will change if you don't push it away have this feeling how long does it last if you really sit with it ten minutes two hours before you destruct it and it's gone oh it feels like is there all the time it does feel like it's a most of the time but it's more just that in those periods when I do experience that absence of the you have to be using the word I but that absence of the person that is just so freeing yeah and so I can't help but notice that when it comes back I can't help but not like it I can't help but yeah totally that like Tony says suddenly your space your expansion and then the contraction goes in and it hits you in the in the heart yeah of course it's natural that you hate it and that you resist it and you resent it it's natural but if you see Bob is sometimes saying face your fear and the death of fear is certain like really sit with it because by pushing it away you actually reinforcing it but it's scary you hate it and just completely sit with it like okay it is there this is what it is there's no way I can push it away it's not gonna happen so I may as well die into it just die into that damn sense of separation that I hate and And forget about the memory in which I'm completely free and spacious.

Just for this moment. Because in this moment, this is the reality. The sense of separation, the sense of contraction, this is what it is. Like shit, you know? You've got to die into it. Just completely give up. It's almost... It feels like... I know how it feels. I don't even have words for it. And I'm really, really sorry you go through it. Because it's a torture. It's an absolute ordeal. It's... Yuck. But there's no other way. I mean, you've realized that resisting it doesn't work. So it's not going to... Pushing it away and resenting it is not going to take you anywhere. You're not going to win.

You're fighting with that sense. It's a thought fighting with a thought. It's not me as a thought. It's fighting, I don't want this, I don't like it. They're all thoughts. And the sensation where it is is a thought. Fear, anxiety, shit. It's like trying... You don't want to wash away blood with blood or so, so you can't. When you experience openness, when that me drops away, when you experience that, what's actually going on internally when you get that sensation of feelings coming back into your body and then there becomes a judgment around that, oh, I don't like that, I want that to go away. What's actually happening there is you've got an image or a thought or a...

Or an understanding of what it's like not to experience that in your head. I remember what it's like not to be like this. Yeah. I totally remember what it's like not to be like this. Okay? So you've got that going on. Yeah. And then right next to it, in another thought, another little pattern that's popping up here is, I don't like this because I remember that and I want that. They're just two patterns of thoughts, Max. That's all it is. That's all it is. Only two patterns of thought. If you've got conflict going on, it's not going on in there. It's going on in here.

Like Bob just said, it's one thought against another thought. Or you can go a pattern of thoughts against another pattern of thoughts. Do you understand? Yeah. So, look, you've been able to... You've been doing this for a while now. You're able to see that thoughts just come and go. And you can see that you're not the thinker of those thoughts. Correct? Absolutely. You're right there. Yeah. Same thing needs to apply with this that's going on in here. And including the resistance. Correct. All of it. Whatever it is that comes up in your thoughts, you can observe it, can't you? You can. You've got enough distance away from it to just observe it, come and go.

It could be really shitty thoughts, or they could be quite pleasant thoughts, whatever the case may be. You have the capacity... You have the capacity to just sit and watch them move through. Yeah. It's too far away. Right. Mm-hmm. It's the same. You're still identifying with this. You're still identifying with this body. This is me. And I'm experiencing all this yucky stuff that's going on in the body, as opposed to sit with it, watch it. It's not going to kill you. It's not. It feels like... It feels pretty bloody uncomfortable. But remember, when you first started doing this, thoughts felt pretty uncomfortable, didn't they? Until you started to get some distance up from it.

Then there was no kind of preference going on in relation to the thoughts. There was just, okay, there's that one that goes through, and that one looks pretty yuck. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It wasn't really even a judgment on it. You just... You develop the capacity of seeing just to be able to watch it moving through. Now, the reason this is more difficult is as much as possible, it's much closer. Yeah, yes. And it's not even a thought. I mean, what's creating it is, but the experience of it is not a thought. It's an energy. Yeah, it's awful. And it's really close. It's like, I can see it.

Sometimes it's in your throat. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's going to be in your face. Mm-hmm. It's like solar plexus. There's a tension that happens and so on, yeah? So you need to... It's not you, just like those thoughts aren't you. And it's okay for those thoughts to be there, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. They're just going to float through and move on by, by themselves anyway. So is this energy that's going on in there. But what's actually creating, more often than not, what's actually creating that energy that's going on in there is these two stories that you've got going on. Mm-hmm. When that energy is really there and it feels really yuck, okay, it's because there's a pattern of thoughts here comparing to this pattern of thoughts, which is only a memory, by the way.

This pattern of thoughts over here and this pattern of thoughts here goes, I want that back. What, what back? What, what? Thoughts back, an idea back, a concept back. That that you want back is not the actual thing. That's not it. Mm-hmm. Yeah? Mm-hmm. See, how yucky would that really be if you didn't have any memory of that thing? I mean, I don't have any memory of that state of expansion when we were completely free and the self wasn't there. I mean, the sensation of contraction, how yucky it would be without the comparison. Like, you can still breathe. Of course, the breath will be shallow.

Yeah. But it wouldn't be as bad. No, no, no. I feel like it's like I can't believe I was like that for so forever. Like, because I had no reference point. And now with a reference point, it's like this costume that I can't take off, like, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so just, this is really, this... You've had it before. Oh, yeah, sure. Should you? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Who hasn't experienced that? For years. Yeah, for years. Yeah. But see, now you can see that this is the story, the resistance that actually makes it so bad. Because if you didn't remember how it is to be free from it, you wouldn't have the reference point.

It wouldn't be so bad. You're not bleeding. You're not puking. You're not, you know, it's just some vibration in the solar plexus, a little bit shallow breath, maybe. The whole sensation is not too bad. It's totally bearable. The physical aspect of it is bearable. What is actually unbearable is to compare it with that expanse, beautiful bliss of being, the freedom. It's only a memory. It's only a comparison. It's like, you know, how cold it is if it is, like, 12 degrees in the middle of a summer. And how it is if it is minus 20 in the middle of a white winter in the Himalayas.

It's warm. It's all relative, all in comparison to something. That's why they say, you know, when you pop through, you have the honeymoon period of bliss and laughing and being so happy because you compare it with unbearable suffering of being. But then it matures to the ordinary awareness. Look how blissful Bob is. Just ordinary awareness. Rough. But he was saying 42 years ago when he was going back from Nisargadatta, he wanted to shout it from the rooftops. Because the comparison. That is what it feels like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is such a contrast. That's horrible. Oh, horrible. It's a difficult, it's a very difficult period because once you taste the, ah, that freedom, that joy, that naturalness, that effortlessness, and now you're back in contraction, it feels 10,000 times more than before you actually experienced the freedom because you didn't have reference point.

It does. So now you're kind of one leg in one boat and another leg in another boat and they go different ways. Yeah. Enjoy it. It's not going to last for long. Now you have a taste of both worlds and that's intense. But that's also precious because, you're not going to see it for long, you know? Because the moment you see through, when you see the resistance as just a story that gives you a reference to another story, it's not going to have that same impact. You're right. It is much closer. Mm. Mm. Because that's like, That was the last little bit. Yeah. That I've expressed that here before.

That was the last, you know, and what made that feel so unnerving and so uncomfortable was that there was, my self-identity was so identified with being here and being present and after all this is my seeing and my hearing and my presence and my awareness and my, my, my, my, my, was totally identified with that sense of presence. And that sense of presence gets experienced. Look, you should put a bullet here or a gun here and pull the trigger and this body dropped, that awareness would disappear from here. Okay? So it is bodily dependent as such. Yeah? Can't have it, one without the other, if you like.

So that, that, that, that identity hangs on, and it was the last thing I saw, it hangs on to that, this sense of presence. I am, I am, like, I am here. And, and as a result of that, the last thing, and it's yuck, that it really gets to experience is all this energy and this shit stuff that goes on in the body. Like it really, you really notice it. You really absolutely notice it. And it magnifies because you've had that experience of that not being the case. You've had that. There's like, oh. Yeah? And then you kind of experience that again. Yeah? And, and all I saw, and I don't know if it's the same for everybody, I assume it is, but all I saw was exactly what I said.

The last, the very, very last thing, Max, that this self, this me, this illusory me, this self identity was hanging on to and claiming ownership of was this sense of presence. That's why at the end me felt so fucking real. Mm. Because that sense of presence is real. Mm. And then there's the fear because, because that, that identity is so attached to that sense of presence, then fear comes up because we get this idea in our head for, for me to go, kind of feels like that, that presence that it's hanging on to is gonna go as well, which equals death. Mm. And it doesn't wanna let go.

It hangs on. Mm. But that sense of presence is prior to the me. Mm. Like when Bob says, you know, what were you before two, two years of age? That presence was there. The me gets added on to that, that sense of presence as we get older and conditioned. Mm. And all sorts of stuff goes in there as we, as we grow and get older and older and older until eventually get to a, a, a point we're not even aware that all that stuff's been put in there. And then all that stuff that's put in there, we go, that's what I am. You didn't even fucking put it there.

I didn't choose my name Terry. Mm. When I was born, I didn't choose, that's just the start. Mm. I didn't choose that. Mm. Yeah. Mm. So there's all this conditioning that happens, which you're aware of. But that was the last, that last little bit, and it was extraordinarily painful. Yeah. It was extraordinarily painful. But you just sit. You just have to sit there. Sit there. See what's actually real. What's actually really going on. And you can only see it for yourself, Max. You can, you know, I can say what I'm saying, that you've got to see for yourself what's going on there. And it gets pretty simple too, because you're now no longer all complicated.

You know, there's not all these, all these thoughts and all these experiences and all these memories and all this stuff that you've got to sift through, which generally you do when you first come into this. Mm. I'm not that, I'm not that, I'm not that belief, I'm not. And, you know, it can go on for quite a while. But when you get to here, it gets really focused. Yeah, I get all that, but I still feel like I'm here. What the hell's going on here? And all the attention goes there, instead of getting dissipated in what I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. And it, and it's, and in my experience, Max, it was really, really uncomfortable.

It just was. You know. Bob, you talk about that, like, sense of presence. I don't, like, I would never know what that is. Like, because it just feels like that contraction. When Terry was up, I mean, he put the gun to his head, the life essence goes out of the body. How many thoughts can a corpse have? Nothing. How many feelings? What animosities is that life essence? Where all the thoughts, feelings, emotions go there? And that's what you are, the life, not the way it's expressing its feelings, thoughts and emotions. That life, that sense of presence is not contaminated or corrupted. Where any of the thoughts, feelings and emotions had gone, they were, because it's been going on so long, that the feel is very real.

It's got no substance or any independent nature. And that's what Christ told you. You are the life. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. He wasn't talking about himself. He was talking about that sense of presence is the way. It is the truth. It is the life. Not the concepts or feelings or the things we put on. Just life itself. What's that life doing in that body right now? Isn't it breathing you? Are you breathing? That concept, isn't it? Isn't it beating you hard? Isn't it growing your hair and your fingernails? Digesting your food? Causing all these thoughts, feelings and emotions to arise?

It's the life that's doing it. You are that. It couldn't even take place if there's no life in that body. So you are the life in which all these things appear. We've taken the appearances, the sensations of being, and the feelings of being. I've never met life. If you try to look for the sensation of presence and you say you can't find it, you can't. Because this is the one thing that you can't find but you can't deny it. You can't say that you are not present. You know you are present but you can't sense it because you don't have the, you know, sense organs can't sense it.

Like you can't see it, hear it, taste it, touch it or smell it. The only thing you know about the sense of presence is you know that it's there. But how does it taste? How does it feel? You can't say. Because it's pre-sense. It's the basic screen on which the sensations appear. So it is prior to senses. You can't ever find it. You can only know that it's there and you can't deny it. But what Bob is often saying, and I think that would be just brilliant because you have so much courage and commitment. Like did you really try to make it worse? Because see the ego or the personal self wants, it hates it so badly.

It wants to push it away so badly. That if you will make it worse, you basically kill the ego. It really is going to die because that's the thing that you know this resistance towards separation is so strong that if you kind of make that sense of separation stronger, the resistance will just explode. It will just completely explode. This is what I heard Bob saying to people who are fearing something. You know, like make it bigger or pain. Make it bigger. You know, it's not going to be. It's not going to kill you because in the worst case, you fall unconscious. You just drop off the consciousness.

But it just, you know, going to sleep or whatever. But that sense of separation because you don't want it so badly. The one who doesn't want it. If this sensation is all there is for a moment. The one who doesn't want it. Is gone. It's gone it because this is all there is. There is only space for one. If that sensations older there is no space for resistance. Just for a moment. Don't want it out. Don't want to kill it. Don't just invite it fully. Like let it completely. This is die. Well, this is the will of the absolute. Die into it. And. Yeah, see what happens.

I don't know. It's what I heard about saying a lot of times to people and I've tested it myself. Gosh, how many times I was dying into just dying into that longing. And it always worked. Always. I mean, you know, surrender getting off the way. Like if I could manage to find when I was still seeking all the time, I could manage to find that feeling of. I just want it so bad. I'm ready to die for it. I just. I would do absolutely anything if that is going to kill me, please. And. Nothing. Emptiness. Of course, the old habit pattern would come back. Because it was strong pattern.

It was rehearsed and practiced for all my life. But in the moment. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was. I would just, I would just die and want to see the false and so at once. You know, it can't get the same intensity, and really, this really comes into. Have you seen it? Seen through it once? Next time it comes up. You can't, but keep saying and recognizing it won't bother even coming up. After all. If it does, it's just a matter. How is it now? That's yeah. That that's only now.

One moment at the time. Because you kind of, you know, and this is beautiful and thank you for showing up again because Bob tends to speak more when you're here. Not only because of that, you are very loved and very welcome here. But yeah, one moment at a time. This is, see how you're gathering, you know, like tools and what to do when it shows up again. And that's great. That's, that's the commitment. But it's not there. I suppose it's just that, yeah, it's like what you say Kat, I just want it to be over. I don't want like a coping mechanism or something to do when it's there.

I just want it, I suppose, but that is the very thing that is keeping it there. Because it's only now. And right now you're okay. Yeah, that's it. And now you're okay again. And every time you ask yourself what's wrong with right now when you don't think about it, you're okay again. You want it over, go right into it now. Yeah. You know, you've got to go back and see how real it is. Just ask yourself, how bad can this be? Keep putting the energy into it and putting the energy in. And all the effort is going into that energy. There's no effort, energy going into the thing that's not or whatever it is that's there.

So nothing can live without energy. So that'll die off and the energy will be such you'll finish up laughing at it. You initially do when you first start to see, see the thoughts as being objective. Oh yeah. And I'm just coming and going. Yeah. Yeah. So you're thinking about it and you're thinking about it. Yeah. And then you're thinking about it. You're thinking about it. Yeah. And then you're thinking about it. Yeah. You do. You laugh. Yeah, yeah. Same. Okay. Because... Yeah, it is the same. The resistance is a thought. It's a sneaky one. But it's the same. Because the thoughts are so clear, it's like this weird trippy movie.

Yeah, yeah. It goes on. Totally. Totally. Resistance... I don't want this. I want something that I remember from the past. That's also, that's the same pattern. Oh yeah. Bob is showing me the time. So... Did welerin' on a break? That's all right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, thank you everyone. Thank you, Bob. Yes, thank you, Bob. Who you think?