Non Duality Sailor Bob, Kat, Terry on 'I' - the phantom 18 09 18

So everyone kind of knows. Robin. Sheree. Terry. Carl. Kieran. Justin. Moira. Isaiah. Salila. Richard. Bob. Kat. Wago. Wago. Okay. He will be talking also. It's just that he's saving the energy. He hit 90 and he had a rough winter and he's conserving the energy, but he will contribute. Only to make excuses. I'm having your back. You should be grateful. That's why you're doing excuses. Because Kat's all the time putting it back to Bob and Bob's putting it back to Kat. That's great. Yeah. No way. You keep it now. We can jump up and you'll talk. We get a call there. He's just blind. He doesn't want to stop.

It's a nuisance call. Probably someone doesn't like us. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. So we're talking about non-genius. So what does that mean? So it means that there is a non-duality and non-duality in a, in a simplest words means that there is only one, not two. So one means that everything is kind of made of the same substance, which is not exactly a substance because the most beautiful way that Bob used to describe it is like there is a life or there is an intelligence or there is this omnipotence. The power. That forms every shape and pattern. It vibrates into different forms. The subtle vibration will be like a clouds or like thoughts.

The more solid vibrations will be like a sound or, or light wave. And yet more vibrations will form so-called matter. So this is really all the appearance or the world. The universe is created of that one simple, basic matter that we could call life. In Buddhism, they call it that they, they pointed it saying that emptiness is form and form is emptiness because everything appears in the seeming space, which is emptiness. It's obviously just made of itself. And a good illustration of that is like the ocean waving. There are individual waves appearing on the surface, but they're all water. They're all ocean. So starting from this, there is nothing other than that.

One. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. Sub. So every form is some sort of a vibration of the same one life. So this form, the room, every one of you, there is no one and no sink that would be anything other than that. This impossible because it stems even the, even the science points out that everything is a stardust. It came out from the singular event that spread. Infinity. Infinity. And keep spreading. But it doesn't matter because science also appears in that. So science is just another way of expression of that one life. So if there is nothing other than, than that one is absolute impossibility for me or you to be anything other than that one.

So now the question is how to realize it or uncover it because it has been covered by layers of conditioning. The way we see it. We were conditioned and we were taught since early childhood is that I am individual. I'm a person. I'm a good person, a bad person. And I was taught to relate to the personal story and to take everything, interpret the world in the relation to me and my story. So now the, the basic reality, the basic understanding of my true nature is completely lost, like with the language. When I started dividing and differentiating things, the idea of separation came about. Now everything is separated.

Every form is separated by space. Every sound separated by silence. And that separation has been conditioned so deeply that it become a reality. So now we all perceive the separation. We hear the separation. We experience separation and we feel separated. And as a separate entity. That there is me versus the rest of the world. Of course I will have my own interest. I will be concerned with my safety. I'll be concerned with my well-being and my wealth and my happiness and my, and my, and my, and my, and I, and me. And I will develop the self-obsession which will run my life all about me.

What people think about me. What am I going to do tomorrow? What I'm going to do when I retire. Everything. Everything will revolve around me. And that creates suffering. That self-obsession blinds me to see the life as it is. To experience it in its full beauty. Because now I'm living in my head where I'm telling myself story about me. When I'm telling myself story about poor me. What happened to me in the past. Or what didn't happen and should have happened. How life is unfair. Because I didn't have that. I didn't have that much money as my sister or friend or whatever. And then what is going to happen also?

The fears that come with the idea that I am separate and I have to control myself and my life and I have to worry about what is going to happen next because it is all in my hands and I'm responsible for what is going to happen. None of the other creatures, as far as we know, experience those sorts of mental overlay on top of the experiencing. The experiencing of life is happening right in this moment and it's happening through the five senses seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. And if we are acutely aware of those senses and the sensations that are showing up in the space of seeing their forms, their objects their sounds in the space of hearing their smells, their tastes and there is thinking also.

In Buddhism, thinking is actually one of the senses and it is good to look at it this way because... then we can see that the same way as thoughts are appearing in the mind it's like the clouds appearing on the sky or like sounds appearing in the field of hearing. So it's not really up to me what type of thoughts I'm going to experience. I have no clue what thought is going to show up in my mind tomorrow or in five minutes. I don't know. Same as I don't know what tram or truck or motorbike or bird is going to sing outside. So this type of living is the living with childlike curiosity.

I'm here, I'm now and I'm open. And I'm open to hear whatever shows up to see whatever shows up. To experience all the sensory world. And this is the invitation to actually cut off the mental commentary that goes on and covers up the reality. Because what happens the moment I start to interpret everything and translate it as something that is happening now. And I'm not saying that it's happening to me or for me or because of me. Or it's somehow the self-obsession is involved. You know that noise outside is there to bring me down or whatever. Or the raining is there because God doesn't love me.

People have ridiculous stories about why is the reality going on like this. And they make meaning and interpret it as something that is about them, about me. While life in its simplicity doesn't require any me. Life in its simplicity doesn't require any me. Life is just happening and the consciousness that is aware of that life happening can just savor every moment to its fullness. Can enjoy the diversity of appearance because this appearance is going to be here only now. It's not going to be there in an hour or tomorrow. The sounds that are showing off and going, disappearing. The sights, they're disappearing. Everything is constantly changing.

Everything is showing up and started already fading. So the moment to acknowledge and love the life as it is in its fullness is only now. But instead of giving attention to what is we, because of the conditioning, give attention to what isn't. Going to the head and, oh yeah, but what am I going to do next? That is what isn't. Or what am I going to do in couple of years? That's again didn't happen. That isn't. Or what is that person thinking about me? That's not the reality. That's the overlaying commentary that goes on. And this commentary takes the attention away from the awake, awake, wakefulness or just simple presence in which the miracle is happening moment to moment.

So the easiest way to actually realize the life in its fullness is to snap out of the mental commentary. And 90%, if not more, of mental commentary is the commentary about me. It's interpreting everything in relation to me. So what is that me? The easiest way is just to investigate the me. Because, well, the ancient scripts and texts are telling us that the me doesn't even have any real existence. Like, surgeons were cutting the body, they never found any me. Neuroscientists, they were looking for the me in the mind. And they actually found one in the section of the brain responsible for hallucinating. So basically, the me, the sense of being individual or separate entity, is a hallucination.

It is set in the same brain which fires up when you take whatever, magic mushrooms or... Anyway, investigating whether there is a me to which I relate and translate all the reality, all the world, can be done in few simple ways. The most elegant way that Bob is usually guiding. You want to guide it? How is the investigation going on? How you look at the me? Can you see? Well, have a look and see. Yeah. The me is really there. What is the... Is the seeing happening? Yeah, we're all seeing it's happening right now, isn't it? Yeah. See, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. And then the thought comes up, I see.

But can a thought see? Can a thought hear? Can a thought be aware? Can a thought choose? A thought can't do anything at all. And what thoughts do you have when you're in the womb? Or when the first two years of your life before you learnt any words? You didn't have any thoughts. You didn't know anything about I or me. But you were living quite well then without the word. And look at the word now and realise that every word you've ever spoken or ever liked to speak has been learnt. It's been acquired. And you're probably learning new words to this day if you go into the dictionary.

But have a look at the word again and see that the word's not the thing. It's just a label we put on things. It's like the word water. See if you can drink the word. See if you can swim in the word or drown in the word. The word fire doesn't burn your mouth. Can you cook with it? Can you eat with it? So this word I or me is not of itself as nothing. But when you put concepts on it and go back into what other words we've learnt, I'm Bob, the Australian, the good fella or the unhappy fella, or the sad fella, we put all this conceptual image on ourselves and reinforce that by our parents, schools, society and everybody around us.

We take it to be the real, the word to be the real. And that word is what we call the self-centre, the reference point or the ego. That's all the ego is, a conceptual image. And it's a dead image of that because it's based on past events, conditions and experiencing. So it's not real. And we've taken it to be real and keep reinforcing it with the energy of belief. And when you look at that word belief, look it up in your dictionary, see the definition of belief is an unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason, acceptance of an alleged fact without positive knowledge of proof.

So we take it to be real, something that's not real at all. So it's not a matter of obtaining anything. We come here, most of us come here, to try and get something, to become liberated, become realised, become whatever. It's not a matter of doing anything. You are already that. What the ancient scriptures tell you, I am that, this is that, everything's that. It's a matter of discarding all this rubbish we've taken on board. Seeing the unreality of it and let that go. And see what happens from that point. Make a good. Yes, so investigation is simple. Like everyone is seeing. The seeing is happening.

But is there anybody doing it? Is there a me that is switching on that capacity of seeing? Can I have the eyes open and say, now I'm not going to be seeing? It's impossible. It's totally not in my hands whether I can switch on and off seeing. Of course the eye, the eyes can get closed. But for that I require a thought. Without the thought to close my eyes, can I even close them? I can't. It's totally, it's the me, the idea of separate entity, the little dwarf that is sitting inside there somewhere and is pulling the strings and is doing the seeing and is growing the hair, is absolute fiction.

There is nobody inside there that is doing any of it. There's nobody inside there that is choosing the thoughts. We are thinking that we can choose the thoughts and we're going to have now positive thoughts instead of negative thoughts. Or we're going to be more loving towards ourselves or whatever. Very noble ideas, but where do they come from? Do I really think them? Because again, the neuroscience, they never discovered any mechanism in the brain that is able to produce thoughts. They're just random flashing of electrons that are following the conditioning, the highways of conditioning happening there in the brain. Completely spontaneous, completely mechanical one could say.

So in that, of course, mechanical is a big approximation because every single being in the way it expresses itself is infinite spontaneity and is absolutely miraculous. The fact that we don't know what we're going to be thinking next is absolute miracle. It leaves everything to life and nothing to the me that can choose what I'm going to see or think or hear. So the me is not in charge of any of the senses. The me is the one that is in control. The senses are working with the mind. This is like a bio-computer. The eye is a camera. Here is the hearing system, the speakers or whatever.

That's the speaker, whatever. Anyway, it works on its own. It is designed in a way that it doesn't need a controller. It doesn't need anyone sitting there and driving it. Every single cell, the whole body is made of like three, I don't know, billions of cells out of which only one tenth belongs to the body. It's a society, it's a colony. And every single cell is programmed and is intelligent and it knows what to do. White blood cells know to transport, to strengthen the immune system. The bone cells, stem cells know where they are needed also. And cancer cells, they are kind of a miracle also in a way.

But they are equipped in that intelligence just as everything else in the whole appearance. Like the same as the body is equipped in intelligence, the planet is equipped in intelligence. Like there is nobody who is moving the planet around the sun. And the planet still knows where to go. It is the laws of physics that we described, but they don't do anything. The description doesn't do a thing. It is all intelligently happening by itself. Or we can say life does it. Or God does it, if someone likes that word. But if we want to use the word God, we can't use it in the ordinary sense as something far away, separate, or bigger or greater than myself.

Because if there is God, it's omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, which means there is all there is. Every single power, the power in which the brain is shutting, flashing the neuron, is God. Because omnipotence is total power. It means every single power, the power which makes the killer murder someone, is still God. It's a total power. Total means total. So the much safer way, and the way that I really like when Bob uses it, is the word life. So life does everything, or intelligence does everything. He calls it intelligence energy because energy is a movement and intelligence is activity. Activity is the knowing. And the energy is the movement.

So it seems like there is everything moving into that different forms and shapes and patterns. And the whole world is finding, that was Nisargadatta saying, the whole universe is finding ever new and fresh ways to express itself. It's like a dance. It finds fresh and new ways to express itself. Through another bodies, through another thoughts, through science, through the ways, through the focus of attention. When the attention is focused through the microscope into a cell, into a quantum level, the very attention creates more of diversity and more of complexity in everything. And the same way, the telescopes that bring up the completely different scale, is again attention bringing out the complexity.

This is the life. This is the life force that creates and expresses us, the whole manifestation. So, the idea that there is a self inside that needs to attain something, that needs to attain enlightenment or freedom from suffering, is precisely the idea that is the veil across the pure consciousness. That's the idea that is blinding us from the natural state which is inherently ours since birth or before the birth. Because the consciousness, the awareness is prior to every form in which it appears. There has to be space for anything to appear. So, I am the space and the body has appeared in me and the body is growing in me.

And I am, as life, using the bodies to manifest, to project, to create and to receive and to interact with seeming other. Because it's only seeming other. As we said at the start, this is just the same consciousness or the same awareness appearing in diversity of forms to have the glimpse of itself. It is not the other. It's the same. On the quantum level, there is just a bundle of electrons flashing here and here also. The matter doesn't really have any more or any density to it because on the ultimate level it's just a field of probability. There is no matter. Matter is energy. Energy is matter, whatever Einstein says.

Anyway, so it is the way of looking at the universe to actually bring it back to its singularity. Bring back the diversity into a singularity. And it is not to say that the diversity is not to be enjoyed and celebrated. Once the dream is recognized for what it is, the dream, it is loved even deeper and even more because first of all, it's known to be transient. We know that this moment is never going to be transient. It's going to be the same again. So why conceptually escape to some other moments or some virtual realities created in imagination rather than celebrate this, the reality, seeming reality, because ultimately this is the appearance.

They call it maya or illusion. But the possibility is there to actually savor and celebrate and experience the dream as a dream and love it as a dream. It's not to wake up from it. The dream is still appearing. Like Bob is seeing all of you. It means he's dreaming all of you. But he knows it is appearance. It is maya. He doesn't take it to be solid reality. So that solid reality doesn't threaten him. So there is no fear. I hadn't seen her pressing through as just a dream character also. So Bob doesn't know anything? Yeah, absolutely. But fear can arise. But that's just the body-mind organism responding in the moment.

Right. Bob? Where did you get the word fear from? Kat just said it. And so she said, if I understood what you said, you said that Bob doesn't have fear. No, it's not threatened. It's not threatened. Fear is a different story. Yeah, it's OK. It's a sensation when you put the label on it. Threatened is the story. Yes. Fear is just the response. Right. If someone's coming towards you with a knife, you'd have an intelligent response. I have no idea. With the fear to remove. Yeah. I have no idea. Yeah. I was jumping off the airplane on the beginning of the air and there was no fear at any moment.

I was surprised. I was expecting fear. Yeah. And it didn't show up. Yeah. So I have no idea. Yeah. But of course, it... But it can show up. Absolutely. That's what it is. Absolutely. Because it's a natural response. Yeah. That's what I was... Well, you see, it's a sensation. There's all sorts of sensations. Sensations, right. And we label this one fear, the next one anger, the next one self-pity or remorse. Right. And as soon as you put the label on, you bring back all the previous fears you had and add to it. It's not just a fresh new sensation. Right. It's all the whole sensation.

It's all the same sensation we put the whole label on. So as soon as we label, we're in the past. Yeah. Yeah. But if we don't label, then it's just the sensation arising in my mind. But what... Yes. If you leave it as it is, what is means it's not. Yeah. So it's a sensation. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a sensation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what? So it's unaltered. It's unaltered. It's unaltered. It's unaltered. It's unmodified. It's unmodified. It's unmodified. It's unmodified. Right. It's uncorrected. It's uncorrected. Just as it is. And it's free to move. But when you fixate on it with the old label, You're going to fight with it.

You're going to resist it. Try and alter it. Try and change it. And it gets worse. Right. But like everything else, everything else is transient. It's all changing. If we don't give it a chance to change, we're bound into it and we suffer. Yeah. Not necessary. And this is not to say that the labels will not arise. Exactly, yeah. Because this is… It's not like an old known name. Yeah, yeah. It's all about recognition. It is moment to moment recognition of a dream as a dream, of the label as a label, of the mental chatter as the mental chatter. What we usually habitually do, we take the mental chatter label as reality.

When I call it fear, I believe I'm in fear and I have to fix it or I have to do something about it. And of course it's presumed that there is an I who is experiencing it while there is a sensation on the body. So whatever is appearing, when it's recognized for what it is, it loses its sting. Like okay, the sensation appears and naturally the mind, because this is the computer, it relates it to the past memories, it brings out the database, it knows the label for it and it brings it up. It wants to be helpful. It's a wonderful instrument. So it brings up that label.

But if there is a conscious awareness of the label being just a label, there will be a smile. Instead of the frown or contraction, there will be a smile. Oh, label. Yeah. And also the curiosity to whatever is happening. If there is a contraction somewhere in the solar plexus that I used to call fear, now I'll be curious about it. Oh wow, that's just such an energy moving. And with that curiosity. I don't have resistance towards what it is. Because this is to start with, this is just the way that the life, I as life, express itself and appear to myself. The body, the sensation, the vibration going on.

And if there is a label or the story showing up on top of it, that's again the content of the awareness. And I am the knowing space. I'm the consciousness in which the body, the sensation and the label and the story. So they are not my. This is not my body. This is not my sensation, not my label, not my story. So why would I be involved or why would I want to push it away? Which again doesn't mean that if there is a pain happening to the body, the body will not naturally respond in the way to preserve itself. It will. And again, the most beautiful way that I didn't see many other non-duality teachers using, which is a waste.

Is to look out at natural states. And see that it is us in nature. So the same way nature responds to whatever, every circumstance and every moment, that is how this body also responds. Like if the cat is hungry, it will meow. It doesn't say, oh it's all perfect, I'm going to just starve. It doesn't happen this way. The instrument is so intelligent. Every cell of the instrument is intelligent. This is all embodiment of intelligence or expression of intelligence. The whole is like a wave on the ocean is made of the ocean. The body is made of intelligence. And the planets are made of intelligence.

And the microbes and bacterias, they are all made of the same intelligence. So everything that the body is doing to preserve itself is that very intelligence expresses as the pattern which the body already has in it. And the body has ingrained programmed through the evolution or whatever we want to call it. So whatever happens naturally, as in nature, is the natural state. What is not natural, well ultimately it is also natural. Because without the taking up the idea of person or ego, the mask as Bob calls it, putting mask of identity over. And identifying with that mask. And leaving that mask. And leaving that mask.

And leaving from that viewpoint of being the mask or the actor. Without that, there is no awakening. So the only way to wake up to itself for life is to fall asleep to itself first. So the life forgets its own singularity and appears to itself as diversity. And then embody diversity, identifies with diversity. With one particular pattern to the exclusion of others. Because without that, there is no awakening. Without that, how would the awakening be possible? The whole appearance is the duality. What we are seeing around is all showing up in person of opposite. Space object. Silence sound. Day, night. And now we can't even conceive because the mind is structure to move between that pairs of opposite.

So we can't even conceive of something that is not. So we can't even conceive of something that is not. So we can't even conceive of something that is not. So we can't even conceive of something that doesn't have the opposite. Like there wouldn't be a sound if there wasn't a silence. If there was a constant level of sound, it would be filtered out. Just like our nose get used to the smell and we can't smell it. Everything is dualistic. There wouldn't be a day, if there was no night. If there was same level of the light just like in the room, it would be filtered out and completely unnoticed.

So the duality is the prerequisite for experiencing. Without the duality. duality there is no experiencing so that beautiful opportunity for that right that beautiful right call life the vacations from the eternity of of eternity as singularity this is a dualistic experiencing so it is experiencing itself as other and catching the glimpse of itself as other and it could be it can be fully embodied and recognized moment to moment if the I doesn't take a stage and steal the show if there is if on top of pure effortless leaving pure experiencing in which everything spontaneously dances in the space of seeing hearing tasting touching smelling if on top of it there is an entity you fictitious entity that I believe myself to be, the mask, then the whole attention, because it's going to be survival instinct involved, it's going to be all that self-obsession that comes up through idea of being separate and vulnerable and unworthy and limited in any way.

So this is going to still show to the point that probably about 80-90% of attention will come and sustain that fictitious entity or the mask. And now, because that mask is very tight and it's very uncomfortable, boy, it's so uncomfortable to feel inferior. It's so uncomfortable to feel unlovable or unworthy. I've been feeling that for 40 years of my life. And shit, I don't know how come I didn't suicide. I didn't know any better. But there is a possibility to live without any self-esteem, not good self-esteem, high self-esteem. Or low self-esteem. No self-esteem because there is no self. It's like Bob is quoting Bunky sometimes when he says that 99% of things that we think and do is for myself.

And there isn't one. There isn't. Life is spontaneously living and expressing itself. It doesn't need agency. It doesn't need the doer. It doesn't need the choice maker. It knows on its own, just like the cat knows where to go. And. And it's hungry or how to hunt. It is all happening without the without the little ego pulling the strings inside. So that little ego pulling the string insights, which is happening in the brain, in this part of the brain that is responsible for hallucinating. It can be investigated and can be de-masked like de-maskation. The mask is dropped off and now self-concern is dropped off. Self-obsession is dropped off.

The life basically leaves itself. And it's not it doesn't mean that it's not going to look after the body. It looks after the body all the time. Like whether I believe there is a little dwarf or Santa Claus sitting inside and and pulling the strings or I'm clear from that belief, the life does whatever it does. Like I have never done a thing in my life. The life has done all of it. Whether I believed in being an ego a few years ago, I believed in being a human being. I believed in being a human being. I believed in being a human being. I believed in being a separate individual or the ego.

Or I don't. The same the same way I didn't take decisions. The thoughts appear and the decisions were were taken. I didn't make choices, right choices or wrong choices. According to environment and the conditioning thoughts appeared and whichever thought was more charged took action. So not only I'm not guilty of anything. So not only I'm not guilty of anything. So not only I'm not guilty of anything. Any mistakes doesn't mean that I'm not trying to fix it because that's also a conditioning. That pattern of trying not to hurt people and fix the mistakes is already part of the personality, which is not mine. This is how life shaped that that particular pattern as much as it shaped every pattern as much as it give every animal different different capacities.

The birds that can fly and the cats that have food that helps them to blend with the leaves. So everyone has the every single pattern cells have the capacity to reproduce or the example that Bob often gives the cells that have the capacity to start new life when the when the cell of the of the female organs of whom and the sperm get together and they already know to divide. They already know where to go where to attach themselves. That intelligence is running the universe. Where is the space for the meat? That's the me. That has anything to say about it has anything to say about seeing or digesting or or dividing or replacing cells.

And in the same way, the same me is redundant in every other moment of the life. It is redundant in taking decisions because decisions happen is only the me only takes credit for it. The me comes and say I have decided. But this. I nobody has ever found it. We only found the phantom in the hallucination for hallucinating part of the of the brain. Apart from that, nobody has ever found it. So it's crucial to actually figure out first the understanding comes on the level of the mind. Oh, okay. For on the level of the mind. Yes, there is no me, but it still feels like there is something there.

There is still concern. There is still fear. There's still involvement in the story. And it often. Because some of us for 20, 30, 40, 50 years reinforced that very pattern of functioning. It may not fall overnight. It may not disappear in an instant, even though it is recognized as nonsense because it can't be found. It's not there. And everything else is happening without the me. So. But it takes. Usually it takes repeated. The repeated investigation to see again and again that there isn't anyone there. The sensation or the feeling that here, but it feels like it is about me. I still feel inferior. So it presumes that there is an eye that feels inferior.

So I am that I that feels inferior. While in reality we are dealing with the content of consciousness. So I am the consciousness and the feeling is in the consciousness vibration. I label it. I am the inferior. So what is happening? Really? There is no, I feeling inferior or feeling that I'm still here. There is just a sensation and the label that are present in the field of consciousness. So from that perspective, I am the field of consciousness. I am the knowing awareness and whatever is the content is just a passing content is just a passing cloud. I'm the sky and the clouds are coming inferiority or superhumanity.

I'm the cloud. I'm the cloud. I'm the superiority or worry or this thought or the other. They're just passing content. The moment I recognize content as a content, I'm the one who is knowing about it. I'm the consciousness in which the content appears. I'm not the content anymore. The identification with the content drops off. So if there is, there is an idea that, okay, I'm still unenlightened and I still have to practice more or seek more. All. You know, try and become someone enlightened. This is precisely another example of a content. This is the story, which is being believed by life, not by I, not by me.

There is no me. It's only life embodying that little model in which there is an individual. This is a play. This is what life wants to play is hiding and seeking, and it can't find the one who believes themselves to be an individual. There's an individual. individual or the actor or that little dwarf inside or perhaps even the body. People even think they are the body. How absurd is that? Like the body is changing, constantly changing. The body has been different yesterday. The body has been different as a baby. And there is someone who is watching the body aging. So how could I be the body if I'm aware of it aging?

So obviously my car is also aging. So am I the car? But still some people believe I'm the body because when you tap me, I can feel it. And when you tap him, I can't feel it. So it means I'm my feelings. I'm the body. Well, yes, I can also feel when someone hit my car. Does it mean I'm the car? Or I can even see when I put out my computer and put a couple of cameras somewhere back in Poland, I can see my parents. It means I'm there? No, it's just... It's just the way the structure of the reality, the equipment works. So I don't think any of you still believe that you are the body that is constantly changing.

Usually the identification comes with the false self or the mask, the mask of personality, the idea of me. And even more subtle because it's reasonably easy to see that I'm not my past. I'm not my story. I'm not my story. I'm not the school that I was going to. I'm not my first love or first whatever, first job or experiences that happened. Or I'm not my opinions or judgments because they are also changing and because I'm also aware of them. But the identification is usually a little bit stronger around the emotional part of the structure. So I am my feelings because it feels so intimate.

It feels so close. My anxiety, it feels so close. So that one, to see as a content, may be a little bit tricky. Yes, it may be a little, especially painful feelings, especially the suffering or this very close sense of inferiority or unworthiness, like I'm not good enough. I should try harder, be better, work on myself, grow. This is the hardest part. This is the hardest part. This is the hardest part. This is the hardest part. This is the hardest part. This is the hardest. At least it was the hardest for me to actually see as a content because the identification, the belief is so persistent.

But there is no difference. If I am aware of my emotions, I can't be the emotions. If I'm aware of the sensations, even the contraction or inferiority, I can't be that. Plus it's not there 24-7. There is no inferiority. When I go to sleep and the light goes off. There is no inferiority. when I'm dreaming that I'm flying. Obviously, I have a different body and I have a different experience and it's an ecstatic, blissful experience. There is no inferiority or there is not even a sense of separate self often sustained there. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But there isn't anything constant. So the way Bob is pointing at that primordial sense of self, because this is something that nobody can really deny.

The sense of existence, the sense of, okay, maybe I'm not the mask of personality. Maybe I'm not the body. Maybe I'm not even my feelings. Maybe I'm not even my inferiority or whatever. But I am. Like, come on, I am. Yes, and that's it. That's the only thing we really know. I am. What is behind I am is a lie. When I say I am the consciousness, the consciousness is already an object which I can create. I can create mental image of. I'm not the mental image. When I say I am space, again, the space is made to an object. I can only say I am.

And I can't say I am not. Of course I can say it, but I have to first exist to say whether I am or I am not. So that sense of presence very often is taken to be, okay, I am. But I am here and I'm not there. Well, how do I know that? The limitation of the equipment. The assumption that the equipment is what I am. So how do I know where is the hearing happening? Is it then out there on the street or is it there in my head? I can't even say. So based on that, I assume that I'm here and I'm not there.

That's an assumption. If I close my eyes, the space disappears. I can't say where I begin or where I end. So it's totally reliable on the senses. And the sense of being is the same. And the senses are completely conditioned by the mind which interprets the information. So the one thing that I can know is that I am. I can't know what I am. Because to know what I am, I would have to stop being myself and then I can't know even more. So I am. Now, assumption is that I am within the limit of the skin. But when I close my eyes, I can't even see the skin.

With the eyes open, I can't even see my face. So I don't really, I can't tell where I begin or where I end. When someone comes too close, I can already say that they invade my space. So obviously, now I'm assuming my space being a little bit wider than the body. So this is all assumption. Assumption that I am the body, I'm inside the body, or I'm a little bit outside because of some aura or chakra or whatever. They're assumptions. And they are all based on conditioning, on words of what somebody is saying. On words of what somebody else told me. Everything, every word has been learned.

Every word comes from just repeating somebody else, taking up from someone else, learning. What do I know without anything that has been conditioned to me, have been told to me? The only thing that I can be certain about is the presence, the awareness of presence, sense of being. And this is what they call, this is what they call the primordial self, enlightenment, or this is what I am, the awareness of being, the knowing that I am. So instead of being separate self, a dwarf, someone inside the body, I am the knowing of existence. And that knowing of existence is obviously at least extended on the physical level to the limit of my gaze.

Like I can know everything. I see this is the knowing of existence. In the thinking, completely unlimited. The whole universe appears in me. The moment I think of the galaxies, they are inside the space of my thinking. I am the knowing of it. So I am, like Nisargadatta says, I swallow the whole world. Because the world appears in me. I am the knowing of the world. Now, when I say I am the body, I'm obviously limited myself and separated myself. I'm separated myself from the world. But if I don't take the concept behind the awareness of being, I'm not the body anymore. I'm just being.

I am. And this is what they call satchitananda. You want to explain satchitananda? You are the best at it. I'll put it on you. Yeah, the way they explain it, the being, awareness of being. Well, there are three of the five factors of Hinduism. Satchitananda, nama-rupa. Sat is existence. Chitta is consciousness. And ananda is the love of being or the stillness. And the nama-rupa are the name and form. And the name and form are maya, illusion. But is anybody who is not existing right now? Oh, you realise, I'm existing, so you must be there. Anyone who is not conscious right now? No, you're conscious. Anyone who is not happy to be?

So there it is. You are that satchitananda. I'm talking about the thoughts arise and the results. Thinking, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching. So a thought comes up and you go, I'm thinking this thought. You've related to the conceptual image. You say, I am thinking. And I am thinking this thought. So you've formed a subject, a thinker, that's thinking the thought object. You've divided the actual thinking into subject-object duality. The same with the hearing. I hear. Hearing is happening and I hear. I hear this. And this becomes the object, subject-object. But ask yourself this, can there be a thinker without thinking? You realise there can't be a thinker that's not thinking.

Can there be the thought without thinking? So the subject-object division are only thoughts. But thinking is the natural spontaneous functioning. No hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. They're all the spontaneous functioning. And how does that work out? Well, have a look. Can the thought I think actually think? Can the thought I see actually see? Can the thought I hear actually hear? Shut your eyes and look. See if the thought I see can see. Look around the room and see what you see with a thought. Close your ears off and see what you hear with a thought. You realise you can't do any of those things. But how does it work?

Well, something comes up. And I like it. How do you know? Well, I've had this experience before. It's a good experience and I like it. And we don't want the good things to go. So we cling to it, keep it in, not realise it's transient. No matter how much you love them, how much you want to keep them there, or how much you long for it, that's going to change. They're going to die, move on, or constantly change. But we don't want it to go. So what do we do? We resist it. Trying to keep it there. There is a resistance coming from disbelief, then conceptual me, there you go.

And don't you realise that any resistance you are in, you are in conflict? Resistance is conflict. And conflict is uneasiness. It's depression. It's unhappiness. It's guilt. It's shame. And that's another way of putting it. Uneasiness is disease. So there's resistance, conflict and disease. Going on in us all the time. That's why we're always in this habitual conceptual thinking where all these fears, anxieties, stresses and guilts come upon us. Something we come up with that I don't like. What do I do then? Something we don't like, we try to get rid of it, so we resist it to push it out. Again resistance, again conflict and again disease.

That's what's constantly going on within us. So the recognition that what you're relating it to, the conceptual image, can't see, can't hear, the ego can't see, can't hear, doesn't know, can't do anything at all. It's never been able to do anything. It's a fiction. So where are you left? You're left in the spontaneity of this moment. And you are that. And the that-ness that you are is the existence, consciousness, bliss or being, knowing and loving to be. And isn't that happening within each and every one of you right now before there are any concepts on it? So you start to realise that what the Buddhas tell us, they tell us is non-conceptual, ever fresh presence awareness.

And they add onto it just this, nothing else. Not any concepts or any thoughts or ideas at all at all. Just leave everything as it is. As it is means unaltered. Unmodified. Uncorrected. Just as it is. So that's a natural, spontaneous happening. That's what's going on out there in the universe. What is altering, modifying or correcting the universe? What's anything stopping the sun from shining? Anything stopping the earth from rolling around the sun? It's all spontaneously and naturally happening. The same with what's going on in that body. You've got to think about taking your next breath. You've got to think about beating your heart, expanding and contracting it.

Speak about digesting your food. You don't need to do it. All these things are happening spontaneously and naturally by themselves. Even the thinking is going on. We're related to this persona, the personal image, the personal belief in entity. We take that person to be real. But the ancients told us the person comes from that ancient language, persona, meaning the mask. We've got this mask of identity we put on ourselves, a group of concepts. We've added onto ourselves, I'm Bob, I'm a strain, I'm a good fella, I'm this, that and the other. Or whatever I think about myself, I'm not good enough or I'm fearful. They're all concepts.

They're not believed in anymore because they've seen their faults. And if they're not believed in, who can take delivery of them? No one taking delivery of them, how long are they going to last? Where were yesterday's thoughts now? Haven't they moved on? Last week's thoughts and last year's. And they won't come back unless you recall them. They're gone for good. But we recall them from memory and give them a fresh and new life. Without that recollection, recalling them, life is spontaneously, constantly and ever changing. And that's what Christ told you. I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. Not talking about himself.

But talking about that sense of presence. Go investigate that sense of presence. And realize that I am this without any concepts on it. It's the truth. And it's also the life. And you are that. And that's what such in an end emerges into. I am that. That is all there is. Yeah, so it basically means life without any resistance. Life as if there was nobody home. Because there isn't anyone home. There's only a belief that there is someone. So we all have the glimpses of living this way. Of that effortless living. We are not preoccupied with ourselves 24-7. There are moments when we are completely one with what we do.

When we are in the midst of creative work or something. Or we are with the beauty or nature. And there is no preoccupation or interpretation going on. And this is precisely the state of being which is the natural state. There is nobody home. I mean I just don't sustain there is someone by believing there is. If there is no thinking. If I don't think that there is someone sitting in there. Or in here. There isn't. There isn't. So we know that state. They call it natural state. And this is why it cannot be attained. Because the one who wants to attain it. The person. The mask.

It has to go off. It has to be taken away and thrown away. It has to dissolve. Disappear. Because it's only made of a. It's a phantom. It's made of thoughts that are being believed. The moment the thoughts are seen through. They just dissipate. The belief goes out of them and dissipates. So the person can never achieve enlightenment. Because the person is a dream. It's a mirage. So when the mirage is fading. The natural state is ever present. It's always there. So we all know that natural state. The problem with seeking and the seekers. Is that we are expecting. We were told. Or we are eluded.

Or life eluded itself. With the promises of eternal bliss. Endless pleasure. Or ecstasy. Or something like that. If there was eternal bliss. Or ecstasy. That has never happened. That has never had any beginning. Or any end. It would be filtered out from the consciousness. It could not be experienced. And if there is a bliss that comes and goes. It's not worthy of pursuing. Because it's just another pleasure. So the natural state is the state. Which underlies. Good, bad, pleasant, painful, blissful, non blissful. This is the state that is. Beyond the level of being individual wave. Just being the ocean. It's leaving us. If there was nobody home.

Nobody in control. And this is the true leaving. It is leaving from the true nature. It's leaving like the cat. It doesn't really take credit for anything. Or it doesn't feel guilty. Or it doesn't do. Doesn't take decisions. They happen. So that way of living is. Inherently ours. It can be claimed at any moment. Just by seeing through. The additional layer. As Bob explained beautifully. The additional layer of constant resistance. To what is. The way the life is moment to moment. Is no good. How do I know? Because I. Have the opinion or judgment about it. And I think it should be different. But that I.

Is a mirage. The moment it is seen for what it is. It falls away. With its opinions, judgments and resistance. And in absence of resistance. There's no suffering. Even. Even though pain happens. Aging happens. Toothaches happens. Disasters. Accidents. Everything happens to life. Just as it happens to cats and trees. If there is no resistance. If there is no idea. Oh it shouldn't have happened to me. It should have happened to someone else. If there is no thinking like this. No selfishness. Then every situation is just a situation. And it's not. It's not. It's not. It's a social manifestation. Which is a temporary manifestation. And it can be lived through fully.

It can even be appreciated. To the certain extent. Like even grieving or sadness. If the label is taken off. It's just a sensation. Overwhelming vibration in the body. But if that's not. If there is no idea that it shouldn't. Be here. It can even be delicious. It can even be sweet. It can. Everything can be viewed the same way as Nisargadatta was guiding, as love. Fear is love for the body and its safety. Seeking is love for the wisdom. Even selfishness is love for that mask of personality. It's a little bit misguided because when that mask is dropped, the self expands and embraces the whole universe.

And this is also love. So the simple, effortless way of living where there is nobody home, when there is nobody in control, when life governs itself and it does it way better than any perceived or imagined individual could possibly do. Like what can an individual do about the weather or about movement of galaxies or movement of cells in the body? Nothing. So the same way life without that imagined destruction is. It can govern itself and can move about much more effortlessly and much more intelligently. And when the energy is not invested in sustaining that mirage, that very energy is free to appreciate and love life, perhaps to help someone, to see someone, to be for someone in a way that is selfless.

That is not for me. It's not about me. And yeah, so it's just, it's just up to you to keep looking. And when I'm saying up to you, I'm not talking about the mask. The mask can't see anything. It's the consciousness that is running the body. That very consciousness has brought itself here. So on some level it is already attracted to finding itself in a pure form rather than dressed up as that mask of personality. So that very consciousness is invigorated. It's invigorated. It's invigorated. It's inviting itself now to have a look and to see how it is when the life is not interpreted, when there is no resistance, when everything is holy and is transient.

So we have another 25 minutes. So please join in. Tell us how, how do you feel about it? Or if you have any doubts or any questions, or if it all doesn't make sense, please argue. This is all language. So it is actually quite, quite impossible to describe and explain it appropriately because language by nature is dualistic. And we are, and we are talking about singularity. But yeah, the, the frequency is there because the conviction or the, well, you know, what in absence of thinking there is even, there is no even a need of conviction because the, the, The knowing that we are is something that is totally undeniable.

The awareness of being is undeniable. The sat chit ananda means awareness of being is bliss or being, knowing, loving to be. The third part, the bliss or the loving to be, it shows up when the destruction is absent because that very energy that brings about the love for the being because while the love for the being is there otherwise there wouldn't be any being. So if the being already appeared in the consciousness it means it has been allowed, it has been loved, it is appreciated. But the experience of the sweetness of being, the sweetness of being comes to us when we drop off the conceptualizing and the covering up and interpreting everything in the head.

Because what happens with excessive thinking? The thinking is so entertaining. The thinking is so interesting. The stories are so hypnotizing. They are so interesting. The awareness of being is just boring. It feels like ahh, it's nothing. Like drama, wow, so juicy. Imagination or fantasy, wow, so colorful, so intense, so engaging. And the awareness of being is basically, it can't even be sensed. We can't even use the senses. The senses are the same. The senses are the same. So the person is still there, and he is there too. Now, if I bring my mind up the sense, the sense is still there in my brain, my head is still in my brain.

It's still in my brain. It has been in my brain useful. It has a body too. I am not just seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling to sense the awareness of being because as Bob pointed it out, it is pre-sense. Presence is pre-sense. It is prior to any sensory experiences. It is a basic screen or background on which the sensory experiences happen. So it feels like nothing for the mind. For the mind, the being or awareness of being is boring. It's nothing. The mind can never ever touch it. It can never grasp it. never grasp it because the mind is movement. It is constant movement while this is the stillness in which the movement of the mind appears.

So to understand this, that the mind can never grasp it because mind is one of the millions of minute expressions of it, to understand that mind can never grasp it is to relax the mind and stop trying. When the mind stops trying to grasp it or grab it or chew on it or contemplate on it, it naturally falls back and in that silence, like some teaching says, the God comes to the quiet mind. In that silence the insights flow, the obviousness of that awareness of Presence comes forth because it's not obscured, the screen is not covered with the images. So now the screen, the screen is visible, the screen is being known and that knowing of itself is blissful.

So the bliss is on stake as well but it isn't constant because the whole machinery is conditioned the way to throw thoughts. So the thoughts are still appearing, the sensory information is still appearing. There are holy men that are in Samadhi, closed eyes, deaf, they look like dead, they just sit there. . . . 20 years later they wake up and they don't even remember they were sitting out for 20 years. That's called some of the samadhis. I don't know, they have different names for it. But that's again the experience that is not really worthy of pursuing because it has beginning and an end. And even though he might have been in a blissful ecstasy for 20 years, he's got nothing to say about it, nothing to experience.

It's just something that is an experience appearing on the basic screen of natural state. So the natural state is prior and is superior to anything that appears on it. And again, the word superiority is the wrong word because everything is made of the same substance. So nothing is superior to anything else. The ant is not inferior to the galaxy. I mean different scales. They are just one substance. We are preoccupied with goodness that only applies to people. We can abuse animals, but we can't abuse people. Why? We can abuse microbes, but we can't abuse people. Well, the goodness, the love of being is completely uncompromising and is equally loving and allowing everything.

As much mosquito, as microbe, as a galaxy, as person. And life. Life lives on life. So the idea of goodness in the world that is only related to me and my nation or me and my race or me and my kind is again just another example of relating. But ultimately, it is just a momentary appearance, moment to moment. And if the distraction doesn't go into sustaining the mirage of the self, the helping other, the helping the world, the serving, it's much more likely than in any other situation. So, come on, join in. I had an experience when I was younger before. And I started at a really young age, like twelve.

And I got to a point where, I'll give an example. One of the gratitude I set for, Yes. I had to stand in the middle of a room and I had 10 black belts all in a circle around me, about eight feet away from me, all facing me. When my instructor clapped his hands, everybody had to go me. And I had to still be on my feet after 10 minutes. And everyone's just constantly at me, you know. And when that happened, and I experienced it, you know, before that and after that, but when that actually occurred, I had no recollection at all as to what this was doing, what the body was doing.

Like, none. It happens too fast for me to jump. I had to jump in there and calculate what's going to happen next. Like, way too fast. And anyway, at the end of that, I then had the opportunity to sit back and look at it because it was being filmed. And I looked at this, like, what was going on that was being filmed. I couldn't believe my eyes. Like, there was no recollection of any of that occurring. And also... Absolute amazement. How did that happen? How... It was too quick, you know. And people used to say to me, how do you do that? How do you actually do that?

And at the time, I was unaware of non-duality. I was, like, totally unaware of any form of spirituality, you know. And at the time, the only answer that I could give... And I used to feel a little bit embarrassed about saying it because it kind of sounded a bit weird... Was... It wasn't me that was doing it. I kind of felt like my body was taken over. That was the only kind of thing I could say. It was true. But that was as close to getting to being able to describe that as I could possibly get, you know. And just something that you were saying.

You know, like, within the content of everything that, you know, gets thought, and until we get to a certain point, everything that we think we're thinking is our history. All our experiences, how I feel about myself, you know, the story that I've got around myself, the story that I've got around my parents, the story that I've got around my upbringing. My culture, politics, you name it. But what's also... And I would take ownership of that. That story was mine. It was very precious to me, you know. And... But what was also contained in that story was, you're hopeless, you never amount to anything, what's fucking wrong with you?

You idiot. You fuckwit. How could you do that? Why did you say... Or... Or that as well, you know. I didn't kind of like that part of the story. But it was there. And, you know, it was, I believed, part of me. What was also contained in that story was, yeah, this is my body. Of course this is my body, you know. Absolutely. It's no one else's, you know. I'm sitting here in it. It's got to be my body, you know. And... And what I come to see through the self-inquiry, through spending time with Bob and... Was that this me that hangs on to things and claims ownership of things, whether it be thoughts or experiences or...

Even people in the present moment, you know, like this is my partner, whatever. Whatever it clings on to. It also was clinging very strongly to what I thought was the body. And during this self-inquiry, it became relatively easy to say, yep, I'm not the thoughts. And yes, I'm not the body. Intellectually, it made sense. And after all, I could witness the body. I could see it, you know. And I became also aware of thoughts that would happen, you know. Throughout the course of the day. And I went, well, okay, I've got to be separate from them to be aware of them. And separate from the body to be aware of it.

But the last thing... The last thing... So I was kind of stuck there, you know. Like, now what? And, you know, Bob says it from the very beginning. And it kind of gets said all the way through, you know. You are already that. You are already... You are already... That sense of presence, that awareness, that oneness, that one intelligence energy. You are already that, you know. And the last thing that I had to see was, yep, I can see I'm not the body. Yep, I can see I'm not thoughts, etc. But the last thing that that sense of identity was hanging on to was that sense of presence.

And that's why... I got so stuck. And why I see others get so stuck. Because that sense of presence is real. It is actually real. Whereas that identity, that phantom that was hanging on to it and claiming ownership of it is not real. Yet it's not kind of even aware that it's doing that. That it's claiming ownership of that sense. That it's claiming ownership of that sense of presence. And there's the stuckness. I understand this, I understand that, I understand I'm not this. I'm not the body, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Like, I see all that. Why the hell do I still feel like I'm here and I'm stuck?

You know? How did your audience react when you said that? Oh, look. Most people didn't understand what I was saying. Because they were... You kind of had to be at that level to appreciate that. I've spoken to other people... Yes. ...that had reached that level that totally understood what I was saying. But until you got to that level, people couldn't get it. Yeah. So that... Now, that sense of presence, I can't describe it. I actually can't describe it. I can describe thoughts, I can describe the content of thoughts. I can describe the body, describe all that. But I couldn't describe that... That sense of presence.

So that stuckness... I don't know. The last thing that had to go for me was seeing that. That this so-called me-ness or that so-called self-identity was hanging onto and taking ownership of that sense of presence. Or that sense of awareness. Hung onto it. And because it hung onto it, that me felt like... It's here. Like it's here. Because I'm here. And I can't say, I'm not. I'm here. Therein lies the stuckness. That... Of course, you're going to be stuck. When I actually saw that, that was the last thing to see for me. It was the total... Absolute total last thing to see. That that... So-called sense of me-ness.

Everything else kind of dropped away. Like... All I was kind of stuck with is... I still feel... Trapped. I still feel like I'm here. And I didn't have no clue... What to do about it. Because I kind of knew I wasn't this and I wasn't that. Um... And there was that trappedness. And it wasn't until... And it just happened by itself. By the way. It didn't actually do anything. But... All of my attention was left focused on just that. I still feel like I'm here. What is that? What's... What's going on there? Like... Who still feels like it's here? And what is that here-ness? What is that?

Like, what is that? Um... So it was... Kind of having to... To... To discern the difference between the body and body sensations and that sense of presence. And there's a difference. There's absolutely a difference. There is. And... Kind of... You just... You just come to see that. You literally... You just come to see it. And as soon as I saw... My a-ha moment... Was when I saw... That... That last vestige of me was hanging onto that sense of presence. And taking ownership of it. This is my presence. This is my here-ness. I'm here. Me is here. Yeah? Me feels stuck here. You know? So that...

That... That last little bit was seeing that... That last little bit of the me. It was... Just kind of... Trying to hang on. Just literally trying to hang on. And I saw it. I just saw... What it was. Literally. Just saw... That. And there was nothing else to see after that. There was literally... Nothing else to see... After that. And then I just found myself... Sitting really, really quietly. And everything just stopped. All the... Internal noise... Stopped. Like completely... Like completely stopped. You know? And so... Internally there was... A silence. That was... Dare I say... Experienced. Dare I say. But... The other thing that... Became really, really...

Apparent kind of in an instant... Was... The noise. Sound. That I... I wasn't even hearing. I was so... Kind of... Internalized. And I call it... The roaring silence. I do. It's so... I don't know. When you pop out of that me... There's so much to hear. And there's so much to see. That I kind of wasn't... I wasn't seeing. Or hearing. Before. I just wasn't. I thought I was. Thought. I was. But I wasn't. So that last... I don't know. You know? If any... If any... If any... If any... If any... If any... If any... If any... If any... If anyone else is there... But for me...

That was really, really important. Really, really important. To see that. And... I had to get to a point of... No longer... Looking in the content. No longer looking for answers in there. You know? I saw that for what... What it was. For me it was just... All the... All the focus just turned. And just sat with... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... This... you said you can know about it because it's changing, it's vibrating.

That's not the type of presence. The presence which is pre-sense, which can't be sensed and which is never changing, that's the ultimate. So they also say in many Zen schools, they say we are looking for that which never changes. That's the ultimate truth. The truth that is truth regardless of anything. So the only thing that doesn't change is that space-like awareness or sky-like awareness or basic screen. Everything else is coming and going. And yes, it's a beautiful way of describing it. The way this mirage is holding on to anything and everything, even the basic sense of presence, especially to the basic sense of presence, is borrowing the existence from the ultimate intelligence or life.

And it's feeding on it. And then, of course, another thing that happens, the moment it is seen true, an enormous amount of energy that has been trapped in sustaining that mask, in keeping that real, in believing in that little Santa Claus there, gets released. Like Terry was sitting in silence for weeks and weeks. I didn't sleep for weeks and weeks. I mean, I would sleep for a couple of hours per day. It's just that. Energy before the body, it took a few months. When I went to work and I was actually worried that I was a responsible job driving ships, I was worried that I won't be able to do the job if I don't get proper sleep.

That's the conditioning. But the sleep didn't happen because it didn't have to. Until it settled down and it created a new sort of a standard, because, again, in the duality, everything is relative to its opposite. But that... Seeing how much of the energy is sustaining the false image, when it drops... I mean, we know the people who have already are reporting constantly that the life gets easier, the life gets brighter, there is less of self-ink going on, there is less of self-obsession. The problems show up, but they don't hang on. We don't dwell into stuff from 20 years ago. Or if there is something in the immediacy, it hangs on for...

a couple of hours instead of for a couple of weeks. So it is already much more spacious, it's already much more freeing and much more fun to be around, to have that ride. But the ultimate freedom comes when the preference for pleasure, even that, drops off. Like whatever life is presenting to itself is the beloved. And... running away from pain and chasing pleasure, desires, chasing desires, what do I want to become or to gain or... that drops off. It's... the person, the individual cannot stop themselves from desires or repulsions, because it's like Bob is saying, Banke says, killing the ego or stopping the ego is like washing blood off the hands with blood.

It still stays there. If there is a person suppressing the desires, and then the desires are suppressed, the person is still there. So they naturally drop off with the... when there is nobody home, when there is a presence, but that presence is not being owned. Like there is no one who claims the identity, no one who identifies itself as the presence. And moments again, I can't stress that one enough. Moments of that... natural state, we are experiencing throughout the day, and we miss out on it. Basically, because the mind is... grasping everything and organizing, memorizing, putting down to the database. And these moments when the mind is inactive, they are not really memorized.

But in hindsight, we can see when there was no problem. Like the way... beautiful way Nisargadatta describes natural state. He says, I can't say how it is. I can only say it in negative. There is nothing wrong anymore. Nothing wrong anymore. Even if it's raining, even if it's cold. Nothing wrong. So, every one of us knows that from experience, from day to day experience. The moments where there is nothing wrong. I'm relaxing on the sofa after a busy day at work. Oh yes, nothing wrong. This is the natural state. Mind is not active. The problems are not being created. So, acknowledging that fact that we already tasted will bring up the regime of experiencing it more.

It's like the attention will go into that moment when the natural state is being experienced. And the attention will get conditioned to recognize it more and more. And ultimately, maybe it won't fall out of the recognition anymore. So, instead of... Because this is what I was doing for many, many years. Trying to... Because I was so committed. I had so much devotion towards finding out the truth and the reality. That I would do anything. I would torture myself in meditations. And I would... Gosh, that was the individual surrendering. Like the moment I was forgetting myself and going off on the trip on the negative story.

Or self... Beating myself. Or getting... Or guilt or shame or whatever. The moment I would awaken from that story. Oh my God. This is all the story. The next moment, the mind would come back and say, You see? You're hopeless. You'll never get it. You spent half a day on it. Or you spent a couple of hours on it. You're hopeless. So, this is again coming back to another story. The story that reinforces the me that is hopeless. The story that says, You're not good enough. I will discipline you. I, the mind, will discipline you so you get there faster. But to start with, the I who wants to get there faster has to dissolve as a mirage.

And the second thing, the mind that wants to discipline itself is part of the mirage. So, any sort of ambition, spiritual ambition, is actually having the reverse effect. If I want to try harder and strive more, I create the tension. While the insights and the natural state is a state of relaxation. A state of just trusting life. The fruit will ripen when it's ready. There is no effort required. Or there is a point when the effort appears. When the effort is required. But in that point, there's an effortless effort. Like my life is effortless effort now. Bob's also and Terry and many others. When, of course, I'm working.

I'm working 16 hours per day. I'm working a lot. I'm working more than I was working when I had a good life as a ship's officer. But this is effortless. Whatever needs done is being done. And there is no idea that it should be any different. I don't have time to sit down and read the book. It doesn't happen. But there is no complaint about it. The life is effortless. Even though it's a lot of action happening in life. Again, well, someone else. Speak, please. Do you think our labels? Yeah. So in meditation, if we're not thinking, we're not the ones who actually are thinking, yet the labels still arise.

So if you're afraid or something like that. Then it's also how do you shift, how do you move away from it? Yeah. It's very common lately for me. Yeah. I think it's very common to get to any time the space opens up. Like I'll see all of a sudden my eyes are closed and then there's space in that space. And then I feel like that space can see me. Yeah, beautiful. And I get afraid instantly. So that's... A response arises in you. Yeah. And that feels so hard to deal with because you're blaming yourself for it. Yeah. Oh my God. Sorry. Yeah, it's intense. Yeah, I think I'm going to go tongue in cheek actually.

That's wonderful. Just let it all out because... Yeah, I just... That's your vulnerability. That is the most helpful thing on this whole path. Just being completely open. Completely. It's very familiar because as a child I had a moment when I was a teenager. And I recognize it to be the same. And I was like running into my room to get a CD. I loved that song. I loved that. Yeah. It was when Zombie first came out. So I remember it was a CD single. And I ran into my bedroom and I opened the door and instantly I felt like time stopped. And the curtains were alive and the walls were alive and they were looking at me.

But instead of recognizing I guess now what that would have been. It just scared the crap out of me. Like I was so afraid. And I remember just standing there going if I move they'll know and I'll like... Yeah. Like to the point where I thought maybe there was something wrong with me. This is so beautiful. You witnessed and it happens. It's almost like a special power. You witnessed the aliveness of everything. It's like comes with this big fear. So and I know that we're not like... We apparently don't get over that fear. It kind of just happens. But then in saying that that's... You still feel like it's you being afraid and somehow like you go okay I'm not going to be afraid this time.

But that's beautiful. Do you know what I mean? And you don't get back there because whenever you're expecting it, it doesn't happen. That's right. And then whenever you're not expecting it, it happens so suddenly that it's scary. So... How wonderful is that? You know this is your self-love. Yeah. But it's manifesting as fear because you don't want to be in danger. Yeah. It feels like it's familiar and it's not right. Like it's wrong. It shouldn't be like that. It is. It's so important. It's so important what Kat just said. I know. Yeah. It's protecting me but... We usually don't go any deeper than the fear.

Yeah. Yeah. We usually don't go any deeper than that. Yeah. But what's absolutely below that is love. And I want to get there and I know in fact that's what I want to do. I want to get there and I know intellectually that that's what's beyond it. Yeah. Like Carl says to me, the only separation from you and everything is that fear. Yeah. And so that's where I got very mad at myself. And then that's wrong as well. Okay. So... So what sort of meditation is it that you're doing? I've never meditated until I had... Like last year I just sit. It's okay. You just sit?

Yeah. And do what? I just sit. I don't notice anything that's happening in my body. That's it. Yeah. I don't focus on breathing or anything like that. I just sit there. That's fine. Yeah. That's fine. Okay. So you're aware that thoughts just come and go? Yeah. Whilst that's happening? Yeah. Yeah. Are you also aware that you can't stop them? Yeah. I'm getting there. That they just come and go? And that sometimes you don't think them. Yeah. When do you ever think them? Yeah. Well, I wouldn't think the thoughts I thought if I had a choice. Correct. So I'm not going to think them. I'm going to think them.

Okay. Okay. So you're aware of that. Correct. Correct. Yeah. I know this intellectually, but it still hasn't... That's okay. Yeah, but we start there. Yeah. I know for myself, if I had any control over what it was that went on between my ears, I would choose to have nothing but blissful thoughts all the time. Yeah. I wouldn't feel separate. I wouldn't feel isolated. I wouldn't feel scared. I would just be in a state of bliss. Yeah. If I could choose that. If you're truly the thinker, you'd never have any negative experiences, would you? You wouldn't. You just wouldn't do that. No. Yeah. There they are.

Or you'd be psycho. Yeah. There they are. Psychotic. There they are. They flow through. So in the meditation, perhaps something that you could ponder whilst you're meditating, and the type of meditating you're doing, perfect. Don't attach any more to it. I didn't want to meditate. It's perfect. No, I never wanted to. It's okay. But whilst you're sitting in meditation, try meditating on that. On that that is meditating. Yeah. I had a spontaneous thought arise. Which, hold on, hold on. Which is not the thoughts. Because you're aware of the thoughts, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah? What's aware of them? I don't know yet. Meditate on the meditator.

Rather than sitting there and assuming you are, and you're witnessing the content of thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The point is what's aware of that thought, rather than assume you are, you're looking for it. So usually on the brink of almost being asleep because I'm that relaxed is when I'm not thinking. And it- It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter where there's thinking going on- Yeah. Yeah. Or not. The point is, who is the thinking happening to. Who is aware of the thinking. What is aware of the thinking? We never looked there. Yeah.

Yeah. We never looked there. Well the first time I had a thought that I knew wasn't me, was only like, oh, it's a maize. like a couple of weeks ago because I was trying to meditate I was just like I'll just meditate because I felt like it I feel like I was almost asleep and I just woke up to like someone saying how can you be in something and of something at the same time and I remember being like whoa who said that that's really deep and it wasn't me I know it wasn't me and I was like oh and I'm like gee are you meant to try and answer that or do you just let that question just arise and be the question okay remember before when I was saying about that martial art experience that I had yeah yeah just happened too quick it was all just happening too quick it was completely and absolutely spontaneous in every split second of every moment yeah so is everyone's maze yeah functions exactly the same way we just don't realize it you don't get it until you get it and I just don't get it yeah and that just came out of your mouth then you didn't plan for that to come out it just came out yeah so did that yeah and that yeah yeah there's no one sitting separate from that going okay now I'm going to say this it just completely comes out spontaneously so where is there a you there that's going I'm now going to say this or I'm now going to think that I'm now going to believe this or I'm now going to let go of that or I'm now going to do this or do that that's what this is about yeah that's exactly what this is about yeah self-inquiry go looking for the self often we'll we get confused with the self like we really get confused with it um you know if I ask you to describe yourself what you'll do is you'll give me experiences of the self I was born such and such I went to such and such a school such and such parents you give me a whole history you give me all the experiences of the self yeah and I'm going to say this is what I'm going to do you give me the experiences of the self without telling me what the self is what have the experiences happened to what is that self and we don't know we don't even think to look there we just don't and you come along to this and someone will say this because all the suffering that goes on in a human being is what happens in thought only they could tap you on the shoulder and create amnesia so all your history was completely wiped out, what problem would you have?

my feet are a bit sore yeah and that would just be happening presently presently whereas what we run on but I'm like my feet are sore because that's a word and I don't like that there's the story yeah yeah yeah there's the story that's the story and we take the story to be real the closest I ever got when Bob was taking me through this the closest I ever got to being able to identify what my me was was to say I am memory and I bring the past this is insane by the way when you really see it totally insane I bring the past into the present and call that me are you kidding me?

I bring the past? how number one how can I bring the past into the present? what can we ever bring from the past into the present? like seriously so all it is is ideas and thought processes images words, sentences, stories that we bring into the present moment and go that's me really? that sounds a bit bizarre yet that's me that's how we all operate because we never question it we never look and again if I tap you on the shoulder and we could create amnesia you wouldn't disappear would you? you'd still be there you'd still be sitting there there'd just be no story and you'd be completely at peace apart from your sore feet yeah yeah so it's just having a look for yourself watching who is this me?

what is this me? what is it? like what is it? you'll discover it's nothing but thoughts that you have no control over and you're taking that to be who you are really? you don't even have control over it those thoughts that happen for you might as well be going on in somebody else and if they were going on in somebody else how long do you think you pay attention to them? really? if you had the insight to be able to pay attention to them? to know if you could see now all the stuff that goes on in Robin's head throughout the course of the day if you had the capacity to see it how long do you think you'd pay attention to it?

might be interesting yeah it's not going to be interesting yeah but you're not going to pay attention to it for the rest of your life are you? no might be five minutes might be ten minutes and then you go whatever it's got nothing to do with me I'm bored with it it's the same it really is it really is exactly the same you just need to see it yeah I need to really see it and yeah it's not hard it's actually not difficult it's really not difficult yeah just watch thoughts they just pop up from God knows where they just arise they'll be there for a bit and then they subside we're all yesterday's thoughts yeah where are they now?

they're gone gone aren't they? yeah and there's a whole new pattern of thoughts that are floating through just at least becoming aware that thoughts just happen in and of themselves and you are not the doer of any of those thoughts so I'm just trying to do that right now is just recognise that yeah and just recognise it beautiful that's a lot better than getting involved in the thoughts which I and trying to fix them and trying to fix them it's almost like a megaphone into a megaphone when that happens like the megaphone into the megaphone creates like a static loop a static loop yeah like yeah it's a microphone into a PA speaker you'll start to get distance if you start to watch you'll start to get some distance until that happens whatever that goes on in your head you wear it and you become it and that's pretty fucking awful that's why people end up with you it's pretty awful yeah or can be depends on what the story is some people's story is pretty good they wear it and they're alright with it yeah some people's stories are pretty yuck and they go there's got to be a way out of this I'm done trying to fix myself I've been trying to fix myself for eons and I haven't been able to fix myself there's got to be another way and you find yourself in a room like this where we say I know you've been trying to fix yourself got some got some got some got some bad news for you that you're trying to fix doesn't even exist and it's not you yeah so you that you believe yourself to be is not real holy shit purposefully craft an artificial entity yeah they're talking about life being computer simulation it's completely probable and the science says that it can't it can't prove otherwise I mean you can't say either way but anyway you can come back again because we are way over time again and Bob asked me not to extend it too much this time you don't cross your legs there is just one just one no no it's just one just one last thing I wanted to add because you said that you know you don't get it until you get it you are getting it you are getting you are it when you don't think about it because the only thing to get is the awareness of presence and you are aware of presence you can't say you're not aware of presence it's only the destruction going on just ignore it and the awareness of presence is who you are and it's always there and you always know it always get it.

There's nothing more to get. We think there's something more to get. There's nothing more. When you look who is looking, you find no one, nobody home. But the awareness of being is still there. Then the thoughts are happening, they're appearing like subtitles on the screen. But the awareness of being is there, underlying it. So you always get it. You're always getting it. It's just sometimes you focus on the surface of the ocean, which is stormy, instead of going to the depth, which is always peaceful. Okay, so come back again. Because as usually, when the meeting ends, then people start talking. And Bob wants to go to bed.

And I'm getting up tomorrow. At least that with someone to blame on because he's very gracious to host us here. It's extremely gracious. Yeah, he is actually Yeah, we thank you. He's the best. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, so there's a big intimidation.