This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
I don't know what to say as usually. I had a funny conversation this morning with my mom. Yeah, for like almost a couple of hours. Yeah, she's a good friend. She's a darling friend. But for some reason her husband is actually challenging her on whatever the children are doing. I am doing and I am probably biggest challenge for quitting. He is a ship's captain and I quit working at sea which is a crazy thing in his eyes. And another thing, perhaps I am speaking to people about enlightenment. That's a challenge too. So my mum was kind of trying to kindly drop between the line that there is no such thing as enlightenment.
And I said, absolutely, I'm so glad you woke up from this bullshit. She got quiet. Because, yeah, very often people are seeking on spiritual path, they're seeking enlightenment. And when they hear that there is no enlightenment, they quickly just go to somewhere else. To someone else who will tell them, of course there is, you know. I even heard about someone who was implying, I think here in a group, saying that You have the right to know and verify whether your Guru is enlightened. You have to ask them questions and they have to answer that set of questions, because if not, go and find someone who is.
So it implies that there is such a thing as enlightenment and there is a person that can achieve it. So we could have a good laugh with my mum when I told her, of course, you mature out of that dream. You just wake up from that dream. This is what we often tell to people with Bob. If you dream that there is a great enlightenment that you're going to achieve, wake up. It's not going to happen. It's not only not going to happen, it's not going to happen to you because there is no you to achieve it either. But that I wasn't challenging my mum with this one.
Because of course for her she is a body and she is a mind, so there is a body-mind here, absolutely. Well, if you look close enough, there isn't, but we don't go there. I still want to be her friend. So, the absence of enlightenment, that's... Something's happened to you people out there. Yeah, but what has happened actually, waking up from the dream of being a separate individual on the way to achieve the enlightenment. It sounds like enlightenment to me. Well, whatever you want to call it. Yes, it is one of the words that they use for it, but it implies that enlightenment is a thing.
It's like how careful you have to be with words. Same with awareness. What is the awareness? What is the consciousness? What is the space? Can you grasp it? Can you show it? Can you outline it? Like even roughly where it exists and where it doesn't, where does it end? Like they are concepts and they are really empty concepts. There is nothing to them. Like really the closest you can get to enlightenment is the nothing. Like there is no thing. There is nothing to be achieved, there is nothing to be found. And resting in that nothing is called enlightenment. But it is not a thing that has arrived or the person that has arrived somewhere.
It's just the label of the state of absence, absence of selfing, absence of taking everything personally, absence of being preoccupied with me and my story. So that absence is called, is labeled enlightenment, but it's just, every label is idiotic. One could say freedom from, like freedom from the bondage of self. That's also what they label as enlightenment, but enlightenment is not a thing and it can't be achieved or arrived at, Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who wants it, there is no desire for it, so there is no drive to it. And there is... So the achievement of enlightenment is really a dream which is a beautiful dream, which very often start, it make people start looking around and seeing if there is something more to life than just self-obsession and perhaps promises them to start with freedom from suffering which again is a big approximation because we had few fights here also in this room I feel like I've heard that and I've experienced that.
Sometimes they never heard it. No, that was a great big one for me. But, you know, sometimes pain, I suffer as well. Yeah the I that suffers that is a beautiful invitation to actually look deeper Who is that I that suffers Who is that me that is suffering? And really what is the suffering? The suffering, let's say whatever, be it anxiety or be it loneliness or be it whatever, you have an example of suffering? Loss. Loss. Sense of loss, death, yeah, absolutely. All the age. If you're carrying around a big heavy backpack and you throw it off, you've enlightened yourself of the burden. And if you enlighten yourself of the burden of the me, you're liberated from it.
That's self-liberation. I was running by separation. Nobody's going to hear you. You just make me ride up and down. I can't believe that spot ever. No, that's true. I'm talking about you, Tony, and I have to drive this whole thing. I can carry it in my microphone. Okay. What did I say? Yes, I was one stage, I probably asked here too and got yeses, but I don't know, it's probably changes, but separating between sensation and pain. So to me pain still seemed to have reaction, but now I think about it as just probably momentary reaction without a big story. So it's a little tiny story that's barely noticed maybe, where sensation is just like you said one time you worked out 21 sensations after you'd broken your arm and pain wasn't in there because you'd gone down a level.
All these sensations and so it doesn't actually hurt. There's no reaction to that. However, you'd hopefully notice that all the sensations lead to Oh, let's go to the doctor Yeah, you don't really extricating fear out of it You don't have to decide to go to the doctor the body will know what to do. Yeah, and it just be moved to the doctor But yeah, so to me pain is still got it just maybe because it's a loaded word. It's the way I'm using it it's got some some kind of reaction that sees it as a Some kind of reaction, but I suppose, yeah, contraction could be something.
Isn't pain just a natural bodily function? Like that's just your body's protection mechanism. But if you find out... But it's what you think about it as what the suffering is. If you think of it as hurting, then you're already loading in... Yeah, well that's what you're thinking about it. But I mean pain is just a natural thing that your body produces, isn't it? But I mean you can take cold and put that on the same level, but then if you once say, What's the sensations underneath cold? Cold disappeared. Reaction to it and the notion of cold went. Instead there was like something I couldn't even describe.
Closest I got was like heavy lead. And I probably could have maybe taken that out of there, you know. Yeah, labeling is very insidious I think. Yeah, but it's... I was actually thinking about the distinction between the suffering and pain, which is kind of more basic distinction. I suppose it's more relative. Yeah, because... Yeah, no, that's helpful, of course. You have the infinite potential to actually go deeper and deeper into the subtlety of the vibration. You end up with just different vibrations, just vibrating patterns of energy and that's beautiful. And if people are like same pain in different ways, it's kind of... when you're on the same page you're having the same discussion, it's a little bit less likely to go past.
You know, a bit more fruitful perhaps. Unless accidentally it turns out to be the most fruitful thing. As we all never know. Generally the idea that enlightenment can liberate you from physical pain is a dream. It's a dream because as we know, the pain is inevitable in life. Even if people are driving or arriving or having a lot of money and they can make themselves semi-insensitive, that's going to happen because if there was no pain there wouldn't be a pleasure. Because the way the brain is functioning and the way the whole duality is functioning, it is functioning in interrelated opposites. So if the pain is elevated or the poverty is elevated, then whatever is between the new threshold, down threshold and the upper threshold will again be rescaled by the mind because everything is relative.
So the fact that humanity got rid of whatever mortality of babies The The average happiness, even though we live longer, is again the same. It's because the kind of the frames or the relative, the brackets are in a different location, but the relativity, the duality is the same. So to remove pain is absurd. It can't happen. Because it will just be redefined by the brain. If it goes like now from zero to ten, that's just the ten will go somewhere else. I just noticed a pain because sometimes like reaction drops high reaction drops and then sometimes it pops up and possibly just as you mentioned something and that notion turned up here because you mentioned it months ago I am a person of the mind There's still that same set of pain sensations but there's a joy in the activity actually happening, full stop.
And so, a wee pain happened there but first it was labelled in as pain, second time around it wasn't. I can't say anything about it really and then it was gone anyway so I couldn't see if this other thing would turn up or not. Yes. So, why I am putting it as pain is physical, suffering is mental? Yes. Yes, so all the suffering, suffering can be removed because the mental activity can be recognised for what it is. And then it's not taken on board, it's not taken seriously, it doesn't stink. Okay. Ah, that's a good thing. The That suffering already, of course it may be a different degrees of the suffering, but even having a good run and wanting to preserve it can be pretty painful.
Or waiting for something else to happen, waiting till the children grow up and leave home, waiting till I get retired, whatever, that's the same, that's the story, That's conceptually arguing with what is, arguing with the reality, labeling us as not good, not this, not yet. Yeah, it's tension, it's actually tension. You call it uneasiness, it's the disease, resistance. Resistance? Finorgayuzis, this is it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so any sort of unease, uneasiness. And this is a beautiful machinery because it will let you know the way this one functions. You may not even be purely aware of the thinking, of the story going on, but the sensation that is stirred by the story will let you know if there is a contraction, if there is any uneasiness going on, Translation Sittinging with me as a sense of unworthiness or sense of uneasiness, that sense of lack, that sense of not being enough.
So this thing, it is almost like calling for attention and very often this one is medicated with attention seeking from outside. Like I was still joking with my mother today about my need to have close friendships because they were like a mirror. If my two or three girlfriends tell me that I exist, oh, okay, that I exist. Now it doesn't matter. But people have different survival strategies. Some people need to have a position in the group because that gives them that sense, okay, I'm real. Or they need to have physical comfort, no fear, because that gives them the sense of, anyway, the uneasiness within, the sense of lack is medicated by different strategies I am a person who is not aware of the truth of life.
Translation The body-mind machine has this mechanism that the acute suffering coming from it pushes people to start looking a little bit deeper. So it is a gift. Suffering is a gift. Also, that one when you already understand that everything is just the appearance on the screen of awareness, that one is again a gift when it shows up any sort of uneasiness, any sort, like irritability or whatever. If the attention goes back and notices it, it right away loses its thing, because now it is noticed as an object in awareness. So this whole thing has been designed the way to actually... It is a perfect trap for the individual It is impossible to wake up and realize the consciousness because the individual is a dream So it is a perfect trap The one the I that wants to wake up will never do it Translation Follow it, like Bob says, look within, stay with the fear, stop running away from what is, really face it until it become what it is, what it always been, nothing, just a vibrating pattern of energy.
So whatever is happening in the solar plexus or in the heart or whatever, any sort of contraction, Whether it is recognized as a story about me or it is not, or it is just a feeling, like a gut feeling, I don't know, something's not right. At that level it also is an arrangement that nature has done and included in the machinery for the consciousness to be able to recognize itself. Because the consciousness is the one that is aware of it as an object. So it's not a practice really, but it is actually valuable to notice because this sort of sensations and vibrations, they are available in the moment only.
We can recall the past moments, but then the sensations will show up presently again. So, if there is a commitment or if there is a devotion to finding out the reality of what it all is about, then being vigilant about what is going on inside and noticing all uneasiness when it comes about may be a beautiful way of meeting and learning and experiencing that what is. Meeting it and experiencing it as it is means without judgment. Of course, if judgment shows up, it is included. Okay, now there is an uneasiness and there is a judgment, or it shouldn't be there. But this again is included as an object in the consciousness, and as such it can be appreciated, and it can be accepted, and it can be loved, and it can be just embraced as it is.
There is always a way, there is always a safe heaven or a safe port in a place of stepping back a little bit and what it is as it is, realizing that it's being allowed, that this is exactly what the consciousness or the awareness or the emptiness formed in this moment to experience. So it is okay, however it feels, even if there is resistance, if there is a pain and resistance to pain or the story or the drama, this is precisely what life is displaying to itself on the screen of consciousness. So as such it is precious, as such it is beautiful and it usually is pretty believable, pretty good acting going on there.
Pretty good directing on that movie of the screen, this 3D display of the reality. So it can be appreciated even if it feels so real that I can't disassociate even more than. It means well done. It's that emptiness forming the reality so well that it completely forgets that it made it of itself. Just like ocean made the waves of itself. Everything is that one self or that one ocean or that one consciousness displaying itself to itself. So everything actually supports that recognition because the availability of getting back to the moment as it is, is always there. Like it's enough to focus on the five senses, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling.
Seeing doesn't happen in the past, hearing doesn't happen in the future, they all hear. So that's one way of supporting itself to realizing the content of the screen. Another way is again that vibrating sensations, uneasiness. Because, well, pleasurable sensations, of course, everything is included. If the habit is there to notice everything that shows up, the pleasurable sensations will be noticed also. And if they are not noticed, that's beautiful as well. Everything as it is, is already exactly what the consciousness or the emptiness wants to display to itself. Ultimately, there is never anything wrong with the picture. Even if the picture seems bloody, even if there is something really painful happening on the picture, that's what it is.
That's how the picture looks like. And that bloody picture might actually bring out beautiful acts of compassion, beautiful acts of heroism. It is just what is being played out. And arguing with that is just pointless. It takes us nowhere. So recognizing that this is how the consciousness or how the reality wants to experience itself is already kind of a fresh breeze of the freedom. Aha, okay, okay. It may be pain included. The Infinite number of combinations or pictures. Because of the infinite nature of it and infinite creativity of it, it doesn't stop by displaying one rich scenery. It constantly dances and everything is in that dance.
The beauty and the ugliness and the judgment and the absence of judgment I Am is the content. What I am, I am the space in which the content is happening. How do I know? Well, content is being known. So I can't be a content. Well, ultimately I'm totality, but if I see everything including this and including this and including the cloud of interpretation as a content, I see the display, I see the The form part of myself. The emptiness part of myself can't be experienced only as the opposite to the form part of me. So when I see the content for what it is the content, that is the way to acknowledge the emptiness without pointing it or making it to a form.
Because I'm acknowledging the opposite, obviously one cannot exist without the other. Bob is often saying, don't you sleep. Sorry. You are not. That nothing can come from... Can anything come from nothing? No. So anything that shows up in that space or that nothingness is nothingness itself. So acknowledging the forms, forms which is the emptiness forming or dancing It's also acknowledging emptiness because there is only one, there are not two. It's not that we have the screen and we have the movie, we have the form and we have the emptiness. No, there are one. They're just aspects. I've got a question on your definition of content.
So I might have been going broader with content. Yes. So you're just meaning by content, label and anything that includes the labeling? Oh, it includes every form, with or without label. So you're using form as anything that's already labeled, because I was sort of using them As kind of unbounded in their way and unlabeled as well, I was including content to be everything. Yeah, absolutely, unlabeled too. Right. Yeah. So you're using that for four-man content? Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's what I was trying to tell, but then I wasn't sure. Pure potentiality. Yeah. Pure potentiality. Maybe I ran away from that one, but anyway, yeah, just...
Yeah, doesn't matter. Or a manifestation. Yeah. You mean perceivable or conceivable? Or inconceivable. Or unconceivable. No, all conceivable. Or potential. Just even potential. Perceivable, yeah, I see what you're saying. So, anything thought up or anything physically sensed? Yeah. Without any label whatsoever, just sensations. Well, why it doesn't even come into it, it doesn't matter. Yeah, whether the labels are there or not doesn't really matter. If they are, they're included. I'm just wondering if it's included. Yes, all included. All included, yes. And again the separation between the emptiness and form is again only conceptual, because they're not separated, they're one. This is only to illustrate because we have to use the conceptual, we do have to use that machinery to communicate, and that one cannot conceive of nothing.
So we say that nothing is the opposite of everything, but it really not, it's not, it's the same. Yeah, because I think when I think of machinery I don't bind it already. To me it's just like a bunch of nothing definable. So when you say this machine does that, I just see a bunch of nothing definable. Yeah, yeah. Some activity. And even that's label, but yeah. So I usually convert a lot of these phrases down to the less molecules because we don't even know what's there. Yeah, the best, the most appropriate way of speaking about it would be to just stop labelling, stop communicating, stop using dual examples, because examples of form and emptiness is a dual example, it's a duality.
Or content and the screen, that's also duality. The best way. The points really work for me, but when I hear those words I don't see them as separate things. Like there's generally a filter to blast it all apart. But the filter is still damn, you know, sitting here doing nothing would not work here at all. What, you know, sitting here having pointing to the no thing seems to be what so far has worked pretty damn well. So never one minute, you know, DASH self-inquiry as a thing to be, I wouldn't put it that way, it's been great for this pattern. However, when the phrases are used, yeah, I just blast them to smithereens as well.
That's good. But mainly I just sit here and just see moment to moment and it like gee there just some comment on that moment before it just keeps coming in I a woman and it incredible and it can come in a couple of words and it gone you know because then it another one It just so so many of it But it great if the focus is there at that degree because it isn there that much in the day So, nobody listens to a lot of what you say, but sometimes a whole few minutes will all be fantastic pointers, but it will be, and what's it like if nothing is there, and if she says this, what does that mean if nothing is there, and if she says that, what does that mean if nothing is there, so they all point, point, point, point, point, but it's really just moment to moment, seeing if it's gotten, something's crept in again.
That's when it's most focused. That's just all that means. Yeah, and that's really what it is about actually, just looking beyond the words and recognizing it moment to moment, beyond the words. They are people and they are holy sort of sages and saints who decide not to speak for 10 or 20 years and then they sit in silence and then... And it works. There are people who find those type of guys. You know, there are people who just do meditation, quiet. Well, Ramana, a lot of his teachings are silent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful, it's beautiful. It's just that because there are so many versions of the emptiness in the form, some of them will find Ramana and would resonate with just pure silence.
Some of them would only need the book or the solitude or the guidance in the dream as they sleep or whatever. I have a set of people that do exactly the same thing to me. That's all I need. They don't need it, it's just all they seem to be turning up for. That's what's happening. Yeah, and then to me they just really got the same, they're pretty much doing the same thing, got the same effect, and it's fantastic. Yeah, because you have this quality, and this is a wonderful thing that you have it. You can have five or six teachers or ten or twenty or whatever because you actually are at this point capable to look beyond the words.
But what very often happens, and we came across with that a few days ago when there was someone asking question who actually resonate with language of somebody else. And for the first time I really saw why very often the teachers are saying, okay, you are reading Osho, stick with Osho, read everything he wrote, don't really come to me anymore, Because if you want to learn his language of pointing, you will benefit much, much more if you stick with that one language of pointing. And I realized, shit, that makes sense. They got a debate in their head and they're confused or something. Yes, for you it's different because you're already looking beyond the words.
But like a few days ago we were actually talking together and Bob, we were talking about not being the body, not being the mind. And Bob is using the pointers that he was learning and he's using it in a slightly different way about, you know, like how the identification happens. Well, you know it, you know it innately, you know it in your language. You say I'm not my body or I am my body or this is my body, whatever. And at the same time, I would use the same pointer to actually use it at slightly different angle to point out that you don't really know.
You don't even know whether you are the body. On one way you use it to show that you're not, to disassociate, and on another angle the same pointer works completely differently. Now we use similar words, but we communicate different aspects. And now if you listen to both of us you get confused. If you look beyond the words you don't. Yeah, like I needed the ballpark the first six months or so, so I needed the ballpark, but right from the beginning there was also checking in, what does that mean if there's nothing there, you know, that once you have the experience of the full stop. Yes.
First time Bob, or second time Bob says it, you know, most people can kind of say they, they'll look around and say, well, I can't say anything, and there's just this kind of stuff coming in, you know, they sort of get that at least. Yeah. But some contextualization because of the missed words and that, you know, they can go out a bit differently, but there's still like a frame that works here. I wouldn't go off probably and sit silently or probably wouldn't go off and meditate or wouldn't go off and do Kundalini. It just appears not to go there and appears that this area works fine.
Cool. At that point you can all be a bit different because you know what the principle is. You know what each pointer is really pointing to. Beautiful little analogy. If you like to call it, I don't know what you call it, that's the May from the May. One ship sails east and one sails west, by the soft same winds that blow. It isn't the sail, the gales, but the set of the sails, which determines the way they will go. It's the one energy driving everything, but whichever way, whichever conceptualiser will think about it, you'll go whichever way you do. I never got the meaning behind that one.
That's what it means, the oneness and the mind. Yeah, and it's really beautiful that the whole, you know, if you look from the space perspective or the perspective of consciousness, and it is actually playing this hide and seek in the appearance, in maya, in manifestation, and it creates so many hints for itself. The hints, the sensations of the body, the hints, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, the hints, the gurus that offer meditation, then the gurus that offer devotion or the whatever. Development. Sometimes you go, what's the 180 of that? That's the point. That's right. Everything, ultimately, because everything is one. Like they say, you know, like the big bang, it was just one single point, it's a theory and it's probably nonsense.
But because that one single point exploded everything is made of the stardust Everything is made of one and the same matter Where we know there is no matter matter equals energy or energy equals matter multiplied by light speed squared But even that idea that everything is the one, is the one vibrating into different forms. So from that perspective, every single thing is a hint and could be a pointer. You go out on the street and you see the tram and it can be a pointer. Ah, okay, movement. Ah, right, it happens in stillness, in emptiness. Okay, next thing you see, oh, oh, the neighbor, I don't like them.
Oh, okay, now I have some sensation in the body, I don't like them. Oh, I'm aware of the sensation. Oh my gosh, I'm the screen. Every single thing ultimately is the opportunity. Every moment, that's why they say the realization is the moment-to-moment thing. Every moment is a fresh and new moment to realize that depth of the awareness that is already there. Because at every moment when you are aware, you are aware. When you're not, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Don't even go there. The catching of the comment about that moment and the next moment. Exactly. Catching the comment. Beautiful. You're walking down and you hear yourself commenting on the moment.
Wow, okay. By which light I'm aware of that commenting. Or even just coming in, it was moment to moment, it actually gets a very small part of the comment. Very small. Yeah. It's just like, oh, there you're turning up. Yeah. And then you can even see some sentences then just seem to be only about a claiming of a self, just in the sentence. But if the blasting thing is coming in, it already doesn't seem to mean anything apart from a few words even at that moment. But you see, just a moment before it was like really just an ownership point. It wasn't really much more being said in there.
We comment that it was an ownership thing, statement, you know. Yes, so all of it is an invitation because ultimately there is no way out, you know. It is one and it is aware of itself. It is aware 24-7 all the time. It is aware of the content, it's gone in the content, but it's never gone, it's only dreaming. This is just a dream. So if the ocean experiences itself as a wave, it never stops being the ocean, it never stops being a water. It's always what it is. And the potentiality of discovering that you are this water or this ocean is there moment to moment.
www.mariamaharaj.com But the effortless living, the way in which this recognition is being embodied moment to moment, and moment to moment it doesn't mean that there won't be a gap when there is a thought, because to be able to see the thought, that thought needs space too. So there is a place for everything, there is a place for thoughts, there is a place for sensations, there is a place for judgment, the habitual judgment. If there is always, I don't know, let's say whining about the rainy weather, I don't know, I don't really care about the weather, I mean I like every weather, but there are people who have that habit.
And that habit comes up again and again and again. Even that, even the judgment of whatever is happening is included and this judgment shows up. And then realization, ah, judgment. And without any resistance to judgment. Like everything has its place in the appearance. It's just that one more thing, seemingly there is one more thing, but practically there is one less thing that is playing in the whole play. And then it's like it's ja, ah, and then nothing. That's pretty cool. Yes, so just recognizing dream as a dream moment to moment without taking it to be reality. So there is one less thing going on really.
Again, this is not to say that the recognizing dream as a dream happens constantly. To be able to recognize dream, you have to dream first. So the dream is going on, the dreaming is happening all the time. The dream is known for what it is, but it's still going on. Awakening from the dream is probably going to happen when the body dies. I'm just getting that I get so distracted, that's why it works better to come to satsangs and that. I mean, there's no reason, I just turn up, you know, and I don't think about whether I'm turning up or not until someone asks. But yeah, I'm not here, I'm just so distracted by everything else, tally, whatever.
This moment to moment thing is really not probably happening very much. Quite a bit really, like a hundred times a day, but then that's a billion times not. But here there's an hour and a half where there could be a fairly intensive thing. Or there might be five minutes out of the room, some thought. So that knowing moment to moment is actually there all the time. The knowing is there all the time, only as you say, it is covered up with destruction. That's the only difference because the knowing doesn't go anywhere. It is there. It's just a little bit deeper. Like on the tip of the wave is just the foam, you know, just the emotions.
But the knowing is there So what actually nothing really changes because you are already that fully blown that It just that at times you may not be realizing it I mean, you realize it probably, I don't know, ten thousand times a day, moments, seconds, minutes, whatever. Yeah, minutes occasionally, but yeah. And it's almost like when you're here, there's like a sledgehammer. Bang, bang, what's there if you're not thinking about it? http://www.nisa.com.au, http://www.nisa.com.au, http://youtu.be and www.youtube.com.au And then eventually it just shifted. And then, see, whatever is the amount of the moments when there is no distraction, when the dream is actually known for what it is, that's exactly what the consciousness wants to experience at this moment.
So the idea that, oh, I should be more, because I was buying into that idea, it was really, really tough. I should be more alert all the time. I should be more alert. Oh my gosh, it costs me so much energy to be alert and I was never satisfied with the level of my alertness. I should try harder and be more. No, this is precisely the opposite. The more of a trying and the harder of putting the attention into noticing everything, it is actually quite the opposite. The mind is relaxing into what is, relaxing the judgment, relaxing the effort and just going with the flow, just natural effortless living.
Okay, I'm doing this now. Oh yeah, but the mind was quiet, there was no recognition, I was doing this for last 10 minutes and there was no idea that it is the dream or it isn't a dream, that was just completely quiet. What is the problem with that? There is no idea that, oh my God, I should have 10 minutes, I've been washing dishes and there was no thinking. Oh my God, I should have been recognized and I should be chatting, dream, dream. No, no. There is nothing wrong with life if there is nothing wrong with life. The realization, whether it is or it isn't a dream, doesn't happen in the head.
It is natural functioning. If the recognition comes to the head or from the head, whatever, doesn't matter. Life is effortless. It doesn't really need anything different than what it is now. And then, of course, if the suffering shows up and the triggers, as you say, or anything that shows up, it may promote further recognition, but that's again, nobody has done it. Life provided the suffering. Life provided the opportunity for investigation. Life took the opportunity and provided the recognition. So really there is nobody doing anything wrong at the moment. There is nobody who should try harder now or ever. That is really just relaxing into that flow of life which is already so.
And that's a bad thing to say on the groups like this because then people say that why we coming here? We don't have to come here, we don't have to do anything. No, we don't have to. We can't. It's not even whether I have the choice to do something or not to do something. What choice does the fruit have about ripening process? No choice. Is the sun shining, whatever, there may be a pollution, doesn't matter, it has no choice, it happens by itself. And you have no choice whether you show up on the group like this or you don't. Because the life exposes itself to certain frequency of pointing or it exposes itself to this or it doesn't.
There's never been a question here is it the right or wrong way, it just never turns up. You want to say something? I call it all spontaneous and sometimes beginningless, endless, timeless, just happening by itself, not to anybody. So can you pinpoint a start anywhere to your next thought or an end to it? Nope. And is there a thinker thinking it? No, it's just all flowing naturally. Thoughts appear just as everything else appears. Just like sounds appear, just like smells appear. We tend to differentiate, you know, like, oh, but they were selfing thoughts and non-selfing thoughts, you know, they are thoughts about whatever I'm doing and they are thoughts with my self-obsession about me, what they think about me and all that me-ing or selfing thing.
They just appear. In some situations there is more of the noise. Oh. For example. Yes. It totally depends on the speaker, because some will be holding that like a grain of salt and others will be, it will be a big eye thing to be saying that that way. Yeah. And it takes a bit of filtering to see the difference, you know, which is just a filtering process, which means nothing. Yeah. In particular. So the process of interpreting everything and understanding everything, oh this is what I'm doing right, this is what I'm not doing enough, or I understand this one, or I disagree with that one.
I don't have any of those except around compassion. Oh, good on you. Yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's a big part of the ripening process. You can go this way. Thank you. Someone was sort of countering scarcity with abundance, but you get tripped up on both, so just going with flow. Flo is a nice neutral word for whatever is happening. Neutralizes the concepts right out. Providing to see the word Flo popping up with a big explosion next to it. Yeah, this idea about the scarcity and the abundance. Very often people are attracted and they were also people coming here, attracted to the idea that, okay, I'll be looking into nonduality What's in there for me?
If I look into nonduality and I realize there is no self, then I won't be suffering, I'll be only attracting nice people to my life, I'll be making bigger money and I, I, I, I. And this is again, this is some sort of an attraction that... Dis-trust, dis-trust, dis-trust, dis-trust. And also this is the attraction that comes about on the initial stage when the consciousness plays with itself, It is completely identified as individual and completely obsessed about itself. It is attracted to the idea of enlightenment being endless pleasure or it is attracted to the idea of being free from any obstacles. Like, I'm not going to be creating negative people in my life and I'm not going to be creating poverty.
All those ideas are so sweet, they are so romantic, they are so nice. But there is a time on the path when those ideas have to drop off and basically be recognized as just another layer of a dream. They have to be waken up from. Because if I think, okay, I'll keep investigating because for me it will be more profitable to live life without suffering, it will make more sense and I will be a better person and I will be affecting others and helping others. Well, it is to certain extent, it is the truth, but again if the motivation is selfish, that's a dream. It's not gonna happen.
The me that is gonna be nicer and is gonna have more attractive dream and is gonna be having nicer people or more objects in their lives, that me is a fiction, that me is a dream. So dreaming about shit that is gonna be get better for the me is just a romantic idea that at some point has to drop off. And then people will have to probably start asking better questions. But those are very sweet, those are very romantic. What do you answer them usually? Because there is a part of that, you know, when you are not nasty anymore. Like why people get nasty? People get nasty because they feel threatened, because they are unhappy, because they feel inferior.
Why would anyone want to diminish or put down anybody else? Because they feel inferior and they feel insecure. So if that sense of inferiority and insecurity drops off, I have no business to compete with anyone, To tell anyone that I am better than you or you are worse, you are ugly. I have absolutely no investment in that. So obviously I won't be putting people down because it's just no point. So I'll be nicer. If I'm not suffering, I won't be hurting other people. Yes, there is part of it. But if that's a motivation to actually get to investigation Because I will gain, well, that's very immature motivation.
However, consciousness or life can play that game this way, and this is exactly perfect because this is what life wants at this point. But yes, there are better questions to be asked than what is in there for me at some point. That's what probably leads most people into it in the first place, isn't it? The escape from suffering. Yes, yes. And that's how the whole dream has been arranged. That's how the suffering is the gift. Because without the suffering there wouldn't be rushing out from it and there wouldn't be a possibility to wake up. So that's the beauty of it. And yeah, those ideas, they're sweet, they're really romantic, They're really, oh they're so precious.
I guess at some level it can turn up, just to see how much clarity you have around that, it can turn up just as a story as well and still turn up. So like for me there was just a move to come here and then there was probably a light story about there's a better way of being in life, might as well go see what it is. Yeah, well... But it was really clear that it was just a move to come here, that was all there was to it, and still is. And that's it. And it used to be, you know, two, three years ago, probably that light story about, that probably was there for decades about, yeah, but maybe at some point probably that story dropped off.
That's very well said because there is a better life of living, there is a way of living that is effortless and painless and natural and is flowing. But now everything as you said you are moved to come here that the reality I moved to there is this there is this it a story So it nothing wrong with having that story initially when you feel that everything through the mind you may not come without the story because the story ink the story ink is such a deeply ingrained habit it almost like breathing you know breathing ink and story ink So the story of there is a better way of living or the story that I will be in ecstasy or bliss or the story that I will be helping others or whatever the story is, is just an over layer on the natural movement.
If there is an attraction towards nonduality, the consciousness will find the way to move the body and find its group to sit and absorb the frequency and tune into it. And the story overlaying it, yeah, it's sweet, it's romantic, but it's just a story, it's just a narrative, it doesn't matter. And this is often, we're all using stories, we're speaking words all the time, so I'm actually defeating my own way of pointing, I am very sorry for the interruption. So, when the pointers are really plain and really basic and really logical, they may strike home, but they may also stop in the mind. Because, oh yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm buying it. It comes back to needing trust as a way of being. Or preparing to need trust as a way of being. I'm glad I'm not six on the Enigma. Well, sometimes the distrust is the way, see? Bob is, and he's distrust, and he's doubtfulness, doubting everything, checking everything, verifying. Yes. Really disbelieving absolutely every word. On one way, you kind of seem to be, need to be receptive and have faith and just relax into the message and it will take you where it needs to take you. On the other hand, you do have to, every single word, verify with your experience.
Because nobody can really describe the experience in the way to make you feel it. Because that is going to be imagination. If I describe it so well that you will feel it, that will be the mirror, that will be an imagination, that will induce the experience. And that's not where we want to end. That has to be verified, like really this mango has to be tasted, or this wok has to be walked. So the investigation is about questioning everything, like, okay, whatever I'm saying is nonsense, is bullshit. You can very easily, I can prove it to myself very easily. Oh boy, I got it after my father.
I can prove absolutely anything. I can tear apart every word I'm saying and make it absolutely ridiculous. Easy. But that's not the point. The point is to go beyond the mental commentary. For or against anything. It is to go beyond this white noise that is going on into the pure experiencing, unadorned or uncovered, unveiled by the content, where the content is welcome to show up. It's not a problem. The mind can do whatever it does. It's just the same way the ears are hearing the sounds or the skin is sweating. It doesn't matter. But the identification with the content is the travelling, the consciousness travelling and embodying the other.
Now I'm the image, or now I'm this image, and now I'm the body. Like see how the embodiment of the concepts is also constantly changing that consciousness, that one life becomes the other moment to moment, and the other is slightly different. Like this morning I had this beautiful nice friendly chat with my mom. I was something else in her eyes and in my role, my temporary role. The consciousness was experiencing itself as something else than it does at this moment, than it does when it plays with the cats or when it cooks. It's always kind of putting, it's like the, I like the idea of the illusion that Hindu call the Maya.
Maya is like a goddess and it's a beautiful goddess sparkling and blinking and it's having a gorgeous dresses and it changes them all the time and it dances so every moment Maya has different dress every moment the consciousness experience different scenery different content different role here different roles there everything covered with concepts everything These are the things that are being interpreted, understood or recognized as something other than the One. Only by those conceptualizing, right? Yeah, of course. That's what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's what creates the reality. The mind creates the reality. When you fall asleep and you don't dream, you don't experience any reality.
You see, even without the interpretation, if you close your eyes, part of the reality disappears from the experience If you close your eyes and ears bigger part of reality disappears from the experience Depends what's important, depends what you value. I mean, of course it's entertaining, of course we can watch the movies all the time, but if you're really about seeing through the seeing, close your eyes. Nothing easier. I think, yeah, one of the triggers for me is responding like a proper person in a proper meeting. So, you know, somebody might be looking my way, I'm expected to nod, I'm not actually listening to what they're saying, so I can't.
And that distracts me, so I just shut my eyes and go back to what's here. Very wise. Except there's no feeling, I'm going to shut my eyes now, and I've got to do it. It just happens. I know, I totally hear you. That's recognition of the brilliance of the intelligence. It knows what to do moment to moment. And it is actually a nice thing to realize how much our reality relies on the senses. And the senses have been trained. And the senses have been trained also with the language, with the vocabulary. For people who speak few languages, they often recognize that personality slightly changes when you use different language because your vocabulary is different.
There are certain words that exist in one language and they don't in the other. People say in Spanish my arms move a lot more. There you go, yeah. So the whole appearance is really the interpretation of the pure field of probability, of pure emptiness dancing with the particles and atoms or whatever you want to call it. And they are, the brains or the minds are trained to label them out of that emptiness And move around this reality that has been dreamt, it's a collective dream that has been dreamt, including the bodies. It's nothing anywhere, nothing physical or real anywhere. The energy equals matter by light speed square.
And certain paradigms. Yeah, and it doesn't stop us from fully appreciating the beautiful Maya, the beautiful appearance, the illusion, it's gorgeous, it's to be loved. It's the wanting or the wanting, the primary dream of experiencing itself as the other, experiencing the emptiness, experiencing itself as the form that creates that marvelous manifestation. So it is totally not a nihilistic denial of the beautiful manifestation. It's actually falling in love with it, fearlessly, because when it is taken to be a reality, there is a fear involved. There is a fear that if the world is out there and I am in here, I'm separated from the world, Then of course the world is the other, it's going to harm me one way or the other.
And the idea of suffering, the idea of loss, the idea of any sort of resistance towards the world because there is two of us, there is me and the world. That's painful. And I am nothing and the world is nothing. How can that be two? It's not. But it appears to be, and that is to be celebrated. But it can be celebrated only when it is embraced as the mystery and beauty, not as a threat. It doesn't mean that if somebody will want to put me on the cross tomorrow, for what I'm saying, that there won't be any punching. There may be punching, but even that is alright.
I have to get a new set of nails. A new set of what? Nails. I'm going to have her. Put her on the ground. Not really. She might have stronger stuff. Come on people, jump in. I know it's just so obvious that nobody has any questions, but you know, we can just debate a little bit because I Am the One, I Am the One. I was in the hospital for the first time in a while and there were just flashing lights going on then, just as the chap could see. And I was like, oh just shut us up, whatever happened. So we went straight into the transmission instead and then questions came later.
But it was just unusual, all of us just felt incredibly comfortable. Cool. We had a lot of turmoil during the night and other things but it was just comfort. That's cool. So where was this? Oh, I just know I'm going to have a transmission for a wait now. And satsangi questions That a different vocabulary because I was actually asking no it wasn me it was Julia asking what is that word transmission Like you know there is an idea that someone has to be initiated by someone else. Yes, and you forget all that and just go with some kind of energy, life happens. Basically, and she told Julia that if you see clearly through the dream, even without initiation or whatever, you already kind of transmitting whether you want it or not.
And if you are not seeing through illusion, you are also transmitting. You know, this is all game of frequencies, this is all vibrations. So you basically transmitting your reality or your view, you are transmitting, you are displaying or participating in that. But there are people who are attracted to traditions and rituals. They are attracted to the tradition of a Shaktipat. One of my very good friends is attracted to the idea that only a great guru can introduce you to natural state. Come on, if it's natural, why would you need anyone? But people do, and this is how the consciousness is playing out through these people.
They need to have someone who is confirmed, or there is someone who got a transmission from someone and is authorized to transmit, or someone who will poke you with the, how you call it, the peacock feather or something, or induced kundalini, and all that stuff. They may or may not wake up from it. It is up to life. Life may dream that dream for the rest and that's fine. It's nothing wrong. This is life dreaming every single dream. This is a dream. This is a dream. Everything is a dream. So whatever the life is wanting to experience, they say, Oh, I'm awakened and I'm qualified to awaken you.
Whatever. It's romantic, it's beautiful, and some people are attracted to it and they will find it. And others just say there's just life happening. Yeah. Transmission for Awakening and that's all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Adi Shanti, what he genuflected for 20 years or something and then one day in the middle of it, oh, okay, that's it. You don't know what it's going to be. It's basically waking up from many ideas. Like if you are practicing meditation, you may wake up from the idea that meditation is your path, Or Zen is your path, or 12-step program is your path. If there is no you, what can be your path, what can be your way?
So it is really just seeing everything as a story, a beautiful story. Open-minded and skeptical, I like that matter. I like just open-minded. I don't have the skeptical side so much, not in all parts of my life, but yeah. I'm skeptical about certain powers behind governments, but apart from that, that's just fun. It doesn't matter. That's interesting, I think, you know, if you take Enneagrams, the suspicion thing runs deep, I think, in Australia. Some people will say it's quite a thing, but, you know... Comparing to who? To what? Is this person worthy of listening to? Um... If you're open-minded you'll look at it and if you're sceptical you won't believe it outright until you've experienced it or whatever you do.
No need to trust. No. . Tony, you said something earlier at the beginning of the meeting when Kat was trying to maneuver you to sit somewhere. I am very much still kind of operating from a me and there was the implication that you had nothing to offer or nothing to share or nothing relevant to say. Do you recall that? I sort of recall. I don't recall the exact words. Yeah, yeah, I'm paraphrasing. I am a person who is not afraid of anything. If I didn't have a me issue, I wouldn't feel any intimidation with the camera. And I noticed that I had anxiety over this and that during the day.
And at other times I do experience... I mentioned the other day that Bob said, fake it until you make it. I can sort of experience, if it was like that and I felt that way, just... I would say stop faking the otherwise. It's quite wonderful when you just walk down the street and you have no cares and you don't mind who you're going to meet. How long have you been coming here to Bob's? Since January I think. Beginning of the year. And I'm going to ask you to be as honest as you can. Are you still trying to find something? Oh, look, when I reflect on my period of coming here, I've been interested in these things for a number of years, and for the past number of years I've watched lots of stuff on YouTube and become aware of this.
I feel as though I've found so many helpful things just in daily life, you know, that Bob's mentioned and thinking about them. I've sort of been aware of these things but with listening over and over and coming along they've become, you know, part of my make-up. And so I feel as though I've got so many benefits. Great. So I'll ask the question again, just see if you can answer it without the story. Okay. Are you still trying to find something? Possibly. Because often when I think about it I just think, oh, this is it. I haven't found it. It's kind of a yes or no answer, if you're being honest.
Look, I feel as though I'm really open to an experience that I see other people have had, but it hasn't occurred yet. I am a person who is not aware of the existence of the divine. I am a person who is not aware of the existence of the divine. I see lots of people on YouTube coming up here. Yep. And I'll watch Helen Watts over and over again with other people and while they're talking I'm getting rid of them. And then I forget what's been mentioned. You've got a shocking memory of these things. It's not too flashy, let me tell you. So here's the paradox.
And only you can see or become aware of it. And the paradox is this. Whilst you're trying to find something, or acquire something, or understand something, or get something, You will never get it. And what we're told here, and in a lot of nondual books and circles and teachings and so on, is that what we need to be trying to do is to find self. So generally what we do, and it's okay, it's totally okay, I am not sure if I am going to be able to answer all of them. Okay? And the only way you're going to find what's hidden, literally, in this room is for you to disappear.
And the head kind of goes, what? If I disappear then I can't even be here to find what I'm looking for. Ah, there's a little pointer in there. I am a slow learner. I don't feel terribly frightened of losing me. So what you just acknowledged is me still here is me is still here and I'm not too fussed whether it's comes or goes or... Mostly. Okay, alright, so great. That's what I meant by honest. Okay, so there's the acknowledgement that me is still here. Agreed? Yeah, yeah. Okay, and... Because I have periods of anxiety. I am not letting it affect me. I am a person who is not aware of the existence of the mind.
I am a person who is not aware of the existence of the mind. I think I do it in a leisurely sort of fashion over a number of years It not intense I don seem to have that ability to focus for long periods But every day I would spend a number of hours in this sort of Where are you looking? Well, I'm looking at the dream world, whatever. And seeing it as amazing things that pop out of the ground or things that are needed to be pruned and altered, that's when I think my may is involved. When you say the dream world, sorry for jumping in there, when you say the dream world, can you be more specific about that?
What do you mean when you say that? Oh, the space objects, all that stuff. Oh, okay. You know, the experience of the body and hearing the voice. And then I have lots of feelings of my consciousness field, that everything is happening in this field, whether it's noises out there or seeing what I'm experiencing in this room. Sometimes I have this feeling of space. That's what I've come to hear about when we talk about space here. Up until I came here, I just thought there was nothingness. And now I see this, the moving piece, whatever it is, this energy. Appearing in what? Well, it s through my senses, you know, so touch, smell.
You know, that s how I m experiencing. Not by what. In what? In what? I can see the possibility of this emptiness, a screen, a mirror or something. You can see the possibility. So you're still understanding it conceptually. Yeah, yeah. But it feels right. It feels right. Even though you can acknowledge it's still conceptual. Yeah. I can see that it's conceptual, but it feels right. Yeah, I can see it's conceptual. Okay, good. So, tell me what you found when you go looking for your core me. There's this awareness that I can remember having from a tiny child and that's never changed. You know, it's still this thing.
But also, coming along here, I've always thought of this awareness as something that's there but a bit boring to look at, you know. There's much more interesting other things. Did you hear the question I asked? And perhaps you could ask me again. What have you found when you've gone looking for the core me? I didn't ask about awareness. I didn't ask about fluff. Because that was all fluff while I was there. There is this, well it is an awareness. And I do identify with the awareness. Yeah, I think I can say that. Maybe I've changed my thinking. I've thought a bit on that. But yeah, it's an awareness.
It's me. Awareness is the same as awareness. So, again I'll ask you, what efforts have you gone to, to really seek that sense of meanness that's there? Like, how much have you actually looked? And, if you have looked, what have you found? All I can say is I found something that has never changed. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Terrific. Now, tell me about what you found in relation to the personal identity, the me, that still feels like it's here and still feels like it hasn't got something that others appear to have got. I want you to talk to me about that. Not... That's... you know, sounds like the story of who I think I am.
And... It's nothing popping up. That's okay. That's probably pretty good. Nothing's popping up. So, in your most... It just life drama of changing things when nothing real in the sense that it always changing Nisargad tathagata nisargad tathagata nisargad tathagata nisargada I mean everything that comes out of that. Life's changing, there's this and that, oh and there's this and that. Who or what's saying that? Or who or what is aware of that? Or who or what believes that? Have you gone in? Because it's one thing, you know, It's one thing to observe that, you know, like thoughts just sort of come and go and when I'm in the moment, you know, and life's flowing and I'm in that flow, everything's wonderful and yeah, look, that's all fine and dandy, but you're telling me you still feel the sense of me.
My question is, how much of a look have you actually had? Really? Look, I feel like I've done as much as I can at the time. Yeah, okay. But that's not... Look, if I'm sounding critical, I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm just trying to be direct. Sure. Yeah. I'll ask it again and just see what happens, yeah? Okay. How much of a look have you had? I think I've done the best I could. Other stuff we just learned, but describe that. Describe your actual experience of looking. Tell me what happens. Tell me what you do. Tell me. Describe it. Well, that's okay. That's okay. The There are two ways you can do this.
I'm not the body, I'm not the body, I'm not this, I'm not this, this, this, this, this. Or you could also go, I don't know. I don't know if I'm this or not. I actually don't know. I don't know is a really great place. Footstrapping. Yeah. And in that I don't know-ness, you stop. Everything stops. But when the I know comes up, there's a friggin huge story attached to that. And I can't wait to tell you what I fucking know. You know what I mean? Yeah? So, you know, I've said this before that that that self-identity or that that meanness, you know, it's, I don't know how else to describe this, but it's quite deep.
It's really close, like really close. So close that we don't even notice it. We don't even notice that we're still operating from it. We think we're still operating from it. We don't notice it. Because we can say things like, yeah, I've seen this, I've seen that, and I understand I'm not the body, and all the concepts and belief systems that I've had, and hanging on to the story of my life, I am the one who created me, I am the one who created my life. I can see the nonsense that I see. What we fail to see is that which is saying, I see that.
Who or what is that which just said that? Because initially we come here and we start seeking and quite quickly we understand, well quite quickly that's relative, but there comes a point where we see and we understand that, hang on a minute, I'm not actually what I think about myself. I Am Not What I Think About Myself So there's a great example right there. Who said that? Stop. Yeah, exactly. You heard it. Yeah. That what I mean by it closer And we run with it And we kind of you know initially we kind of disidentify with memory and the imagined self that I brought into the present and call that me I mean that's really, really insane.
Straight off the bat if you look at that. I'm going to bring the past into the present and I'm going to call that me. I am not a person, I am just a memory. Question it and look at it. My God, what? I feel I do question that a lot. Good. Now, question that that just said that. Who? I do do that a lot, and I do. What's that? Who's that? Who said that? Who said that? Where'd that come from? I feel like I get to that point often during the Dali that you go further. I have a question, a bubble nail, and he goes, who wants to know?
That's all he's pointing at. Oh, I don't understand, you know, I've been coming here for years and I still can't get this, and I've seen all the stuff that you've taught, and racka racka racka, and he'll sit there and goes, well, who wants to know? I come along many times a week and I don't know. I'll be back. Question that that just said all that. Who or what's that? Who said that? Who said that? But look and just try and become more aware of the fact that stuff is still coming out here and you're identifying with it. There's still you that believes it's either seeing something or not seeing something or coming here or not coming here or getting stuff.
And I've experienced this and you understand? That's what's being caught. That's what's being caught and that's what needs to be seen. And it's real simple. That's when it gets easy. When it gets easy. Hang on a minute. And it usually gets quiet too. There's nothing conceptual about it. There's nothing conceptual about... Hang on. Turn, Tommy. Oliyana Aam Thatam Nisargad fatih, I'm here with two of my friends. I want to be a partner with you. I Am. What's on offer. The only way that's going to occur is for you to disappear. That meanness, that identity, that's got to go. But for it to go, you've got to see it, see the falseness.
It's a phantom. Bapakya's Satsang I Am That, Raman, I Am. And I wouldn't worry much about being slow learner or being fast learner because the one who is slow or fast or any sort of learner is precisely the one that is gonna just prove itself to be a dream, the Father Christmas. And we are a bit over time now so I guess that would be... No, that's cool, that was helpful. Thank you everyone. Thank you. That's the same knowing that tells you I don't know.