Sailor Bob, Sailor Kat - on suffering 13 Sept 2018

No, you can kick it off. Okay. Yeah, I don't know what to say, as usually. I had a funny conversation this morning with my mum. Did you? Yeah, for like almost a couple of hours. Oh, that's funny. She's got a good friend. Yeah, she's a good friend. She's a darling friend. But for some reason, her husband is actually challenging her on whatever the children are doing. And I'm probably the biggest challenge for quitting. He is the ship's captain and I quit working at sea, which is a crazy thing in his eyes. And another thing, perhaps I'm speaking to people about enlightenment. That's a challenge too.

So my mum was kind of trying to kindly drop between the line that there is no such thing as enlightenment. And I said, absolutely. I'm so glad you woke up from this bullshit. She got quiet. Because, yeah, very often people are seeking on spiritual path. They're seeking enlightenment. And when they hear that there is no enlightenment, they quickly just go to somewhere else. To someone else who will tell them, of course there is. I even heard about someone who was implying, I think here in a group, saying that you have the right to know and verify whether your guru is enlightened. You have to ask them questions.

And they have to answer that set of questions. Because if not, go and find someone who is. So it implies that there is such a thing as enlightenment and there is a person that can achieve it. So we could have a good laugh with my mum when I told her, of course, you mature out of that dream. You just wake up from that dream. This is what we often tell to people with Bob. If you dream that there is a great enlightenment that you're going to achieve, wake up. It's not going to happen. It's not only not going to happen, it's not going to happen to you, because there is no you to achieve it either.

But that I wasn't challenging my mum with this one. Because, of course, for her, she is a body and she is a mind. So there is a body-mind here, absolutely. Well, if you look close enough, there isn't. But we don't go there. I still want to be her friend. So the absence of enlightenment, that's... Something has happened to you. Yeah, but what has happened, actually, waking up from the dream of being a separate individual on the way to achieve the enlightenment. It sounds like enlightenment to me. Well, whatever you want to call it. Yes, it is one of the words that they use for it.

But it implies that enlightenment is a thing. It's like how careful you have to be with words. Same with awareness. What is the awareness? What is the consciousness? What is the space? Can you grasp it? Can you show it? Can you outline it? Like, even roughly, where it exists and where it doesn't? Where does it end? Like, there are concepts, and they are really empty concepts. There is nothing to them. Like, really, the closest you can get to enlightenment is the nothing. Like, there is no thing. There is nothing to be achieved. There is nothing to be found. And resting in that nothing is called enlightenment.

But it's not. It is... It is not a thing that has arrived, or the person that has arrived somewhere. It's just a label of the state of absence. Absence of selfing. Absence of taking everything personally. Absence of being preoccupied with me and my story. So that absence is called, is labeled enlightenment. But it's just... Every label is idiotic. One could say freedom from. Like, freedom from the bondage of self. That's also what they label as enlightenment. But enlightenment is not a thing, and it can't be achieved or arrived at. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it.

Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it.

Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Because the absence of selfing creates the situation in which there is nobody who can achieve it. Drive to it. So the achievement of enlightenment is really a dream which is a beautiful dream which very often makes people start looking around and seeing if there is something more to life than just self-obsession. And perhaps promises them to start with freedom from suffering which again is a big approximation because we had few fights here also in this room about people who were objecting that no, you can't wake up from the suffering because I'm already awake and I'm suffering.

So that's not true, that's bullshit. Again definitions. The suffering versus pain. Pain is something that is happening in the moment and suffering is the story about it and resistance to it. I feel like I followed that and I've experienced that. Yeah, there were few people here who never, they could hear it a hundred times, they never heard it. And that happens to great people. Yeah, the I that suffers, the I that suffers, that is a beautiful invitation to actually look deeper. Who is that I that suffers? Who is that me that is suffering? And really what is the suffering? The suffering, let's say whatever, be it anxiety or be it loneliness or be it whatever, you have an example of suffering, something?

Loss. Loss. Yeah, sense of loss, death, yeah, absolutely. Old age. I'm going to put it another way. If you're carrying around a big heavy backpack and you throw it off, you've enlightened yourself of the burden. Yeah. And if you enlighten yourself of the burden of the me, you're liberated from it, that's self-liberation. Yeah. Come closer. I was running by separation. I'm just feeling relaxed. I was running by separation. Nobody's going to hear you. You just make me ride up and down. Okay. You can't ever leave that spot ever. No, Dutch. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, Dutch. I'm sorry.

You almost did it. You're right. You're right. I'm talking about you, Tony, that I have to drive this whole thing. Drive? You. I can carry it. I can shift it back. I can carry it around. Okay. What did you want to say? Yes, I was, one stage, I probably asked here too and got yeses, but I don't know. It's probably changes, but separating between sensation and pain. So to me, pain still seemed to have reaction, but now I think about it as just probably momentary reaction without a big story. So it's a little tiny story that's barely happening. It's barely noticed maybe where sensation is just like you said, one time you worked out 21 sensations after you broken your arm and pain wasn't in there because you've gone to down a level to all these sensations and so it doesn't actually hurt and there's no reaction to that.

However, you'd hopefully notice that all those sensations led to, oh, let's go to the doctor. Yeah, you don't really. It's like extricating fear out of it. You don't have to decide to go to the doctor. The body will know what to do. Yeah. I mean, it'll just be moved to the doctor, but so to me, pain has still got, it just maybe because it's a loaded word, it's the way I'm using it. It's got some kind of reaction that sees it as some kind of reaction, but I suppose, yeah, contraction could be something. Isn't pain just a natural bodily function? Like that's just your body's protection mechanism.

But if you find out- But it's what you think about it as what the suffering is. If you think about it as hurting, then you're already loading in- Yeah, well that's what I'm saying. It's just a natural bodily function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. It's just a natural body function. You're thinking about it. Yeah. Pain is just a natural thing that your body produces, isn't it?

But I mean, you can take cold and put that on the same level, but then if you, once I, oh, what's the sensations underneath cold? Cold disappeared. Reaction to it and the notion of cold went. Instead, there was like something I couldn't even describe. It was the closest I got was like heavy lead. And I probably could have maybe taken that out of there. Yeah, let's just say that. Yeah. Yeah. The labelling is very insidious, I think. Yeah, but it's... I was actually thinking about the distinction between the suffering and pain, which is kind of more basic distinction. Oh, I suppose it's more relative. Yeah, because...

You don't know me, but... Yeah, no, that's helpful, of course. You have the infinite potential to actually go deeper and deeper into the subtlety of the vibration. You end up with just different vibrations, just vibrating patterns of energy, and that's beautiful. And if people are like, same pain in different ways, it's kind of... When you're on the same page, you're having the same discussion, it's a little bit less likely to go past. Yeah. A bit more fruitful, perhaps. Unless accidentally it turns out to be the most fruitful thing, as we all never know. Yeah, but generally the idea that enlightenment kind of can liberate you from physical pain, is a dream.

It's a dream, because as we know, the pain is inevitable in life. Even if people are driving or arriving or having a lot of money and they can make themselves semi-insensitive, that's going to happen. Because if there was no pain, there wouldn't be a pleasure. Because the way the brain is functioning and the way the whole duality is functioning, it is functioning in interrelated opposites. So, if the pain is elevated or the poverty is elevated, then whatever is between the new threshold, down threshold, and the upper threshold, will again be rescaled by the mind, because everything is relative. So the fact that humanity got rid of whatever, mortality of babies, didn't make them any happier in the long run, because the happiness is also relative.

The pain, pleasure, they're all relative. It's like day, night, and sickness, illness, whatever, health, they have to be there. If the level like, yeah sure, the average age 100 or 200 years ago was, I don't know, 36 years or something. Now, and then three children out of 10 would make it to adulthood. So that stuff has changed. But the average happiness, even though we live longer, is again the same. It's because the... The kind of the frames of the relative, the brackets are in a different location, but the relativity, the duality is the same. So to remove pain is absurd. It can't happen, because it will just be redefined by the brain.

If it goes like now from zero to 10, that's just the 10 will go somewhere else. I just noticed a pain, and then, because sometimes like reaction drops. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Eye reaction drops. And then sometimes it pops up, and possibly just because you'd mentioned something, and that notion turned up here because you'd mentioned it months ago. There's still that same set of pain sensations, but there's a joy in the activity actually happening, full stop. And so the way pain happened there, but first, it was labeled in as pain. Second time around, it wasn't, but I can't say anything about it really. And then it was gone anyway.

I couldn't see if this other thing would turn up or not. Why are we putting it as pain is physical, suffering is mental? Yes. Yes, so all the suffering can be removed because the mental activity can be recognized for what it is. And then it's not taken on board, it's not taken seriously, it doesn't stink. Yes, that is called... Makes the sensation pain, and that is just sensation. Absolutely, yes. So you can say sensation, whatever the sensation is, is as it is. But now the story about it, the judgment about it, or resistance towards it, is the suffering. And even the same thing happens with pleasure.

If there is a pleasurable sensation, whatever, you go on vacation and then you have to come back. Oh, I don't want to come back, I don't want to go home. That's suffering already. Of course, it may be... different degrees of the suffering. But even having a good run and wanting to preserve it can be pretty painful. Or waiting for something else to happen, waiting till the children grow up and leave home, waiting till I get retired, whatever, that's the same. That's the story, that's conceptually arguing with what is, arguing with the reality, labeling it as us. As not good, not this, not yet. Yeah, it's tension.

It's actually tension. You call it uneasiness, it's the disease. Disease, yeah. Resistance, yeah. Resistance. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so any sort of unease, uneasiness. And this is a beautiful machine. It's a beautiful machinery because it will let you know the way this one functions. You may not even be purely aware of the thinking, of the story going on, but the sensation that is stirred by the story will let you know if there is a contraction, if there is any uneasiness going on, if there is some sort of tension. So it is actually quite helpful to be aware, not only about hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, but also about that movement, that search, that sort of...

Because it is the thing that is, well, at least it was sitting with me for most of the time when I was believing myself to be within the limits of my skin. And it was sitting with me as a sense of unworthiness or sense of uneasiness. That sense of luck, that sense of not being enough. So this thing, when it... It is almost like calling for attention. And very often this one is medicated with attention seeking from outside. Like I was still joking with my mother today about my need to have close friendships because they were like a mirror. If my two or three girlfriends tell me that I exist, oh, okay, that I exist.

Now it doesn't matter. But people have different survival skills. They have different survival strategies. Some people need to have a position in the group because that gives them that sense, okay, I'm real. Or they need to have physical comfort, no fear. Because that gives them the sense of... Anyway, the uneasiness within, the sense of luck, is medicated by different strategies from outside. Or it may be medicated by addictions. I was in a relative bubble for a few years. But the disease was that I just didn't know the truth to life. There's just like a low-level uncomfortableness because I didn't know the truth to life. It's the closest I could think.

Because I was not really being... There were other moments of things and other issues, but they were probably repressed in such a way that that was really the one that was... Yeah, this is not all there is. There's like... More value needs to be... Yeah, the idea that I should know. The idea that everybody else knows, but I don't know. And now I should know. Well, somebody out there might know. But it's not quite as it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, all of those little subtle ideas that, as it is, is no good. It should be medicated or changed somehow. This is the brilliant mechanism that this body-mind machine has.

That the acute suffering coming from it pushes people to start looking a little bit deeper so it is a gift. Suffering is a gift. Also, that one, when you already understand that everything is just the appearance on the screen of awareness, that one is again a gift when it shows up. Any sort of uneasiness, any sort, like irritability or whatever, it's... If the attention goes back and notices it, it right away loses its sting because now it is noticed as an object in awareness. So this whole thing has been designed the way to actually... It is a perfect trap for the individual. It is impossible to wake up and realize the consciousness because the individual is a dream.

So it is a perfect trap. The one, the I that wants to wake up will never do it. But at the same time, the consciousness has designed the whole dream to recognize itself. So that little element of suffering, elements of uneasiness, there are also hints for the consciousness, not the individual. The individual is going to resist it, medicate it, do whatever. But the pure consciousness, to actually follow it, like Bob says, look within, stay with the fear, stop running away from what is. Look, really face it until it becomes what it is, what it has always been. Nothing. Just a vibration, vibrating pattern of energy.

So whatever is happening, in the solar plexus or in the heart or whatever, any sort of contraction, whether it is recognized as a story about me, or it is not, or it is just a feeling, like a gut feeling, I don't know, something is not right. At that level, it also is an arrangement that nature has done and included in the machinery for the consciousness to be able to recognize itself. Because the consciousness is the only thing that can recognize itself. Because the consciousness is the one that is aware of it as an object. So it's not a practice really, but it is actually valuable to notice, because this sort of sensations and vibrations, they are available in the moment only.

We can recall the past moments, but then the sensations will show up presently again. So if there is a commitment, or if there is a devotion to finding out the reality of what it all is about, then being vigilant about what is going on inside, and noticing all uneasiness when it comes about, may be a beautiful way of meeting and learning and experiencing that what is. And meeting it and experiencing it as it is, means without judgment. Of course, when judgment shows up, it is included, okay? Now there is an uneasiness, and there is a judgment, or it shouldn't be there. But this again is included as an object in the consciousness, and as such it can be appreciated, and it can be accepted, and it can be loved, and it can be just embraced as it is.

There is always a way, there is always a safe heaven, or a safe port in the place of stepping back a little bit, and what it is as it is, realizing that it is being allowed, that this is exactly what the consciousness or the awareness or the emptiness formed in this moment to experience. So it is okay. However it feels, even if there is resistance, if there is a pain and resistance to pain, or the story or the drama, this is precisely what life is displaying to itself on the screen of consciousness. So as such it is precious, as such it is beautiful, and it usually is pretty believable, pretty good acting going on there, pretty good directing on that movie of the screen, this 3D display of the reality.

So it can be appreciated, even if it feels, even if it feels so real that I can't disassociate even more than. It means well done. It's that emptiness forming the reality so well that it completely forgets that it made it of itself, just like ocean made the waves of itself. Everything is that one self or that one ocean or that one consciousness displaying itself to itself. So everything actually supports that recognition because the availability of getting back to the moment as it is is always there. Like it's enough to focus on the five senses, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Seeing doesn't happen in the past, hearing doesn't happen in the future.

They all hear. So that's one way of supporting itself to realizing the consciousness and the content of the screen. Another way is again that vibrating sensations and easiness. Because well, pleasurable sensations, of course, everything is included. If the habit is there to notice everything that shows up, the pleasurable sensations will be noticed also. And if they are not noticed, that's beautiful as well. Everything as it is, is already exactly what the consciousness or the emptiness want to display to itself. Like there is really, ultimately, never anything wrong with the picture. Even if the picture seems bloody, even if there is something really painful happening on the picture, that's what it is.

That's how the picture looks like. And that bloody picture might actually bring out beautiful acts of compassion, beautiful acts of, of heroism, of... It is just what it is, what is being played out. And arguing with that is, is just, is pointless. It takes us nowhere. So recognizing that this is how the consciousness or how the reality wants to experience itself, is already kind of a fresh breeze of the freedom. Aha, okay. Okay, it may be pain included. It may be sense of loss. It may be sense of lack. It may be, yeah, somebody near and dear died or suffering. If that's included, then maybe also response to it included.

There may be flowing tears included. And that's in the scenery. That's also part of the 3D display. That's also the beloved emptiness showing itself to itself. It shows itself to itself. In infinite number of combinations or pictures. In a... Because of the infinite nature of it and infinite creativity of it, it doesn't stop by displaying one rich scenery. It constantly dances. And everything is in that dance. The beauty and the ugliness and the judgment and the absence of judgment. And the... And engagement with the... Reinterpreting everything as a personal and the freedom of it. And always in the moment, this one is a content. And what I am, I am the space in which the content is happening.

How do I know? Well, content is being known. So, I can't be a content. Well, ultimately I'm totality. But if I see everything including this and including this and including the cloud of interpretation as a content, I see the display. I see the form part of myself. The emptiness part of myself can't be experienced only as the opposite to the form part of me. So, when I see the content for what it is the content, that is the way to acknowledge the emptiness without pointing it or making it to a form. Because I'm acknowledging the opposite, obviously one cannot exist without the other. Bob is often saying, don't you sleep?

Sorry. You are not. That nothing can come from... Can anything come from nothing? No. So, anything that shows up in that space or that nothingness is nothingness. It's nothingness itself. So, acknowledging the forms, which is the emptiness forming or dancing, is also acknowledging emptiness because there is only one. There are not two. It's not that we have the screen and we have the movie. We have the form and we have the emptiness. No, there are one. They're just aspects. I've got a question on your definition of content. So, I might have been going broader with content. Yes. So, you're just meaning by content, label and anything that includes the labeling.

Oh, it includes every form, with or without label. So, you're using form as anything that's already labeled because I was sort of using them as kind of unbounded in their way and unlabeled as well. I was including content to be everything. Yeah, absolutely. Unlabeled too. Right. Yeah. So, you're using that for forming content? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Pure potentiality. Yeah. Pure potentiality. Yeah, I ran away from that one. But anyway, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Or manifestation. Yeah. In the being perceivable or conceivable? Or inconceivable. Or inconceivable. Or conceivable. No. Or conceivable. Or potential. Or just even potential. That's not. Perceivable. Yeah. I see what you're saying.

Causes the non-labeled. So, anything thought up or anything physically sensed? Yeah. Yeah. Without any label and whatsoever. Just sensations. Well, it doesn't even come into it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Whether the labels are there or not doesn't really matter. If they are, they include it. I hear a lot of judgment on the fact that they're not. Yeah. I'm just wondering if it's included. It's too separate. All included. Yeah. All included. Yeah. All included. Yes. And again, the separation between the emptiness and form is again only conceptual because they're not separated. They're one. Yeah. This is only to illustrate because we have to use the conceptual.

We do have to use that machinery to communicate. And that one cannot conceive of nothing. So we say that nothing is the opposite of everything. But really not. It's not. It's the same. Yeah. Because I think when I think of machinery, I don't bind it already. To me, it's just like a bunch of nothing definable. So when you say this machine does that, I just see a bunch of nothing definable. Yeah. Yeah. Some activity. Yeah. And even that's label. But yeah. Yeah. So I usually convert a lot of these phrases down to the less molecules because we don't even know what's there. Yeah. Yeah. The most appropriate way of speaking about it would be to just stop labeling.

Stop communicating. Stop using dual examples. Because examples of form and emptiness is a dual example. It's a duality. Oh. Or content and the screen. That's also duality. The best way... I like the point. Yeah. The point works for me. But when I hear those words, I don't see them as separate things. Like there's generally a filter to blast it all apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Blasted all apart But the filter is still damn, you know sitting here doing nothing would not work here at all What you know sitting here having pointing to the no thing seems to be what so far has worked pretty damn well So never one minute, you know Dutch self-inquiry as a you know as a thing to be I wouldn't put it that way It's been great for this pattern However, when the phrases are used.

Yeah, I just Blast them to smithereens as well The mania to sit here and to see moment to moment It's like to you there's just some comment on that moment before just keeps coming in It's incredible and it can come in a couple of words and it's gone, you know Because then it's another one. It's just so so many that but it's great if the focus is there At that degree because it isn't there that much in the day. So if So nobody was into a lot of what you say, but Sometimes a whole few minutes will all be fantastic pointers, but it will be and what's it like if nothing no thing is there and if she says this What does that mean if my thing is there and if she says that what does that mean of no thing is there?

So they're all point point point point point, but it's really just moment to moment Seeing if it's gotten Something to creeped in again And that that's when it's most focused. That's just all that means Yeah, and that's really what it is about actually. Just just looking beyond the words and and Recognizing it moment-to-moment beyond the words They are people and they are holy sort of sages and saints who decide not to speak for 10 or 20 years And then they sit in silence and then and it works. There are people who find those type of guys, you know There people who just do meditation quiet.

Yeah Yeah, yeah, oh Yeah, it's beautiful, it's beautiful. It's just that because there are so many versions of the emptiness in the form, some of them will find Ramana and would resonate with just pure silence. Some of them would only need the book or the solitude or the guidance in the dream as they sleep or whatever. I have five or six people that do exactly the same thing to me. That's all I need. They don't need it, it's just all they seem to be turning up for. That's what's happening. Yeah, and to me they just really got the same, they're pretty much doing the same thing and got the same effect.

It's fantastic. Yeah, because you have this quality and this is a wonderful thing that you have it. You can have five or six teachers or ten or twenty or whatever because you actually are at this point capable to look beyond the words. But what very often happens, and yeah we came across with that a few days ago when there was someone asking a question who actually resonated with the language of somebody else. Yeah. And for the first time I really saw why very often the teachers are saying, okay, you are reading Osho, stick with Osho, read everything he wrote, don't really come to me anymore because if you want to learn his language of pointing you will benefit much, much more if you stick with that one language of pointing.

And I realized, shit, that makes sense. Like I'm debating ahead and I'm confused or something. Yeah, it's for, yes, for you it's different because you're already looking. You're looking beyond the words. But like a few days ago we were actually talking together and Bob, we were talking about not being the body, not being the mind. And Bob is using the pointers that he was learning and he's using it in a slightly different way about, you know, like how the identification happens. Well, you know it, you know it innately, you know it in your language. You say I'm not my body or I am my body or this is my body, whatever.

Yeah. And you use the same pointer to actually use it at slightly different angle to point out that you don't really know. You don't even know whether you are the body. On one way you use it to show that you're not, to disassociate. And on another angle the same pointer works completely differently. Now we use similar words but we communicate different aspect. And now if you listen to both of us you get confused. If you look beyond the words you don't. Yeah, like I needed the ballpark for six months or something. Yeah. So I needed the ballpark but right from the beginning there was also checking in, what does that mean if there's nothing there, you know.

Once you have experience at the full stop. Yes. The first time Bob, or the second time Bob says it, you know, most people can kind of say they, they will look around and say well I can't say anything and there's just this kind of stuff coming in. You know, they sort of get that at least. Yeah, but some contextualisation because of the missed words and that, you know, they can, kind of, you know, they can get it out of the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Still find the again, this whole conceptualisation because of missed words that, you know, they can go out a bit differently, but it's still like a frame that works here, like I wouldn't go off, probably, and sit silently, or probably wouldn't go off and meditate or wouldn't go off and do Kundalini or wouldn't, it just appears not to go there.

It appears that this area works fine. Cool. You can all be a bit different because you know what the principle is, you know, each pointer is really pointing to yourself. Oh yes, yes. Yes. There's a beautiful little analogy, if you like to call it, I don't know what you call it, that's the May from the May. One ship sails east and one sails west, by the soft same winds that blow. It isn't the sail, the gales, but the set of the sails, which determines the way they will go. It's the one energy driving everything, but whichever way, whichever conceptualiser will think about it, you'll go whichever way you do.

I never got the meaning behind it. And it's really beautiful that the whole, you know, if you look from the space perspective or the perspective of consciousness, and it is actually playing this hide and seek in the appearance, in maya, in manifestation, and it creates so many hints for itself, the hints, the sensations of the body, the hints, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, the hints, the gurus that offer many hints. The gurus that offer meditation, and the gurus that offer devotion, or the whatever. It's the development. Yeah. Sometimes you go, what's the 180 of that? That's the point. That's right. Yeah. Everything, ultimately, because everything is one.

Like they say, you know, like the big bang, it was just one single point, it's a theory and it's probably nonsense, but because that one single point exploded, everything is made of the stardust. Everything is made of one and the same matter. There is no matter. Matter equals energy. Or energy equals matter multiplied by light speed square. But even that idea that everything is the one, is the one vibrating into different forms. So from that perspective, every single thing is a hint and could be a pointer. You go out on the street and you see the tram and it can be a pointer. Ah, okay, movement.

Ah, right. It happens in stillness, in emptiness. Okay, next thing you see, oh, oh, the neighbor, I don't like them. Oh, okay, now I have some sensation in the body, I don't like them. Oh, I'm aware of the sensation. Oh my gosh, I'm the screen. Every single thing ultimately is the opportunity. Every moment, that's why they say the realization is the moment to moment thing. Every moment is a fresh and new moment to realize that depth of the awareness that is already there. Because at every moment when you are aware, you are aware. When you're not, doesn't matter, doesn't matter, don't even go there. The catching of the comment about that moment and the next moment.

Exactly, exactly, catching the comment, beautiful. When you're walking down and you hear yourself commenting on the moment, wow, okay, by which light I'm aware of that commenting. Or even just coming in, it was moment to moment, it actually gets a very small part of the comment, very small. Yeah. It's like, oh, there you're turning up. Yeah. And then you can even see some sentences then just seem to be only about a claiming of a self, just in the sentence. But if the blasting thing is coming in, it already doesn't seem to mean anything apart from a few words even at that moment. But you see just a moment before, it was like really just an ownership point.

It wasn't really much more being said in that way, comment, except it was an ownership thing, statement, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so all of it is an invitation because ultimately there is no way out, you know. It is one and it is aware of itself. It is aware 24-7 all the time. It is aware of the content, it's gone in the content, but it's never gone. It's only dreaming. This is just a dream. So if the ocean experiences itself as a wave, it never stopped being the ocean. It never stopped being the ocean. It never stopped being the ocean. It never stopped being a water.

It's always what it is. And the potentiality of discovering that you are this water or this ocean is there moment to moment. And it's fresh and new and every moment it finds its way to itself in a slightly different way. So there may be a pointer, there may be an insight, and maybe just dawning. Maybe just ordinary awareness. And that's the beauty of the dance. And that's the beauty of living the effortless life. That's not finding an enlightenment for me. There is no enlightenment, there is no me. But the effortless living, the way in which this recognition is being embodied moment to moment. And moment to moment it doesn't mean that there won't be a gap when there is a thought.

Because to be able to see the thought, that thought needs to be there. That's the beauty of the dance. That thought needs space too. So there is a place for everything. There is a place for thoughts. There is a place for sensations. There is a place for judgment. The habitual judgment. If there is always, I don't know, let's say whining about the rainy weather. I don't know, I don't really care about the weather. I mean I like every weather. But there are people who have that habit. And that habit comes up again and again and again. Even that. Even the judgment of whatever is happening.

Whatever is happening is included. And this judgment shows up. And then realization. Ah, judgment. And without any resistance to judgment. Like everything has its place in the appearance. It's just that one more thing, seemingly there is one more thing. But practically there is one less thing that is playing in the whole play. And then it's like just ja, ah. And then nothing. Yeah. That's pretty cool. So, so, just recognizing dream as a dream moment to moment without taking it to be reality. So there is one less thing going on really. Again, this is not to say that the recognizing dream as a dream happens constantly.

To be able to recognize dream, you have to dream first. So the dream is going on. The dreaming is happening all the time. The dream is known for what it is. But it's still going on. Awakening from the dream is probably going to happen when the body dies. I'm just getting that I get so distracted. That's why it works better to come to satsangs and that. I mean there's no reason why I just turn up. You know, and I don't think about whether I'm turning up or not until at least someone asks. But yeah, I'm not here. I'm just so distracted by everything else. Tele, whatever.

Not, this moment to moment thing is really not probably happening very much. I mean quite a bit really. Like a hundred times a day, but then that's a billion times or not, you know. And so, but here there's an hour and a half where there could be a fairly intensive thing. Or there might be five minutes out of the room, you know, in some thought. Yeah, so that knowing moment to moment is actually there all the time. The knowing is there all the time. Only, as you say, it is covered up with destruction. That's the only difference. Because the knowing doesn't go anywhere. It is there.

It's just a little bit deeper. Like on the tip of the wave is just the foam, you know, just the emotions. But the knowing is there. So what actually, nothing really changes because you are already that, fully blown that. It's just that at times you may not be realizing it. I mean, you know, you realize it probably, I don't know, ten thousand times a day, moments, seconds, minutes, whatever. Yeah, minutes occasionally. Yeah. But it's like when you're here, there's like a sledgehammer. Bang, bang. What's there if you're not thinking about it? Bang. What's, you know, what's that? Bang. Where is that? You know, what's that?

Bang, bang. You know, and then it just drops off, knocks out the little distraction, you know, the extras added in. And it's like, yeah, it just works for me. It doesn't matter how noisy or busy, especially like as some of your triggers start to become less as well. Then there's even more space just to, you know, just be, you know, and people could be talking or for a long time I could only really do it during the spiel, you know, it was too distracting, the people talking. And then eventually, you know, just, yeah, it shifted. And then see, whatever is the amount of the moments when there is no distraction, when the dream is actually known for what it is, that's exactly what the consciousness wants to experience at this moment.

Mm. And that's the idea that, oh, I should be more because, yeah, I was buying into that idea. It was really, really tough. I should be more alert all the time. I should be more alert. Oh my gosh, it cost me so much energy to be alert. And I was never satisfied with the level of my alertness. I should try harder and be more. No, this is precisely the opposite. The more of a trying and the harder of putting the attention into noticing everything, it is. It is actually quite the opposite. Is the relaxing into what is relaxing the judgment, relaxing the effort and just going with the flow, just natural effortless leaving.

Okay, I'm doing this now. Oh yeah. But I, the mind was quiet. There was no recognition. I was doing this for the last 10 minutes and there was no idea that it is the dream or it isn't a dream. It was just completely quiet and nobody has the problem with that. There is no idea that, oh my God, I should have 10 minutes. I've been washing dishes and there was no thinking. Oh my God, I should have been recognized and I should be chatting the dream dream. No, no, it's nothing wrong with life. If it's nothing wrong with life, the realization, whether it is or it isn't a dream doesn't happen in the head.

It is natural functioning. If the recognition comes to the head of fear. To the head or from the head, whatever doesn't matter. Life is effortless. It doesn't really need anything different than what it is now. And then of course, if the suffering shows up and the triggers, as you say, or anything that shows up, it may promote further recognition, but that's again, nobody has done it. Life provided the suffering. Life provided the opportunity for investigation. Life took the opportunity and provided the recognition. So really there is nobody doing anything wrong at the moment. There is nobody who should try harder now or ever. That is really just relaxing into that flow of life, which is already so.

And that's a bad thing to say on the groups like this, because then people say that, why are we coming here? We don't have to come here. We don't have to do anything. We know we don't have to. We can't. It's not even. It's not even whether I have the choice to do something or not to do something. What choice does the fruit have about ripening process? No choice. Is the sun shining? Whatever. There may be a pollution. Doesn't matter. It has no choice. It happens by itself. Shots out of the sky, the ass has no choice. And you have no choice whether you show up on the group like this or you don't.

Yeah. Because the life exposes itself to certain frequency of pointing. Or it exposes itself to this or it doesn't. So. There's never been a question here, is it the right or wrong way? It just never turns up. You want to say something? I call it all spontaneous. And sometimes it's beginningless, endless, timeless, just happening by itself. Not to anybody. So can you pinpoint a start anywhere to your next thought or an end to it? Nope. Yeah. And is there a thinker thinking it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You don't see it? No. It's just all flowing naturally. Thoughts appear just as everything else appears. Just like sounds appear, just like smells appear. We tend to differentiate, you know, like, but they were selfing thoughts and nonselfing thoughts, you know, the thoughts about whatever I'm doing. And there are thoughts with my self-obsession about me, what they think about me. And I think to myself, you know like, the things that I don't know, you know, I feel And try to, you know, to think of the future. Alright? And see whatever I say.

That's great. You know? And then I М ut like and say ams but then I don't think about tomorrow because it's so, and I'm like, you don't know how it picture with. and all that me-ing or self-ing thing. They just appear. In some situations, there is more of the noise. Yes. It totally depends on the speaker, because some will be holding that like a grain of salt, and others will be a big I thing to be saying that that way. Yeah. And it takes a bit of filtering to see the difference, which is just a filtering process. Which means nothing. Yeah. In particular. And also the process of interpreting everything and understanding everything.

Oh, this is what I'm doing right. This is what I'm not doing enough. Or I understand this one, or I disagree with that one. I'm so glad I don't have any of those. Except around compassion. Oh, good on you. They're not wondering anything. Yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's a big part of the ripening process. And then you can go this way. Thank you. Someone was sort of countering scarcity with abundance, but you get tripped up on both, so just going with flow. Flow is a nice neutral word for whatever's happening. Neutralizes concepts right out. Providing to see the word flow popping up with a big explosion next to it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I get this idea about the scarcity and the abundance. Very often people are attracted, and they were also, people coming here, attracted to the idea that, okay, I'll be looking into non-duality, and what's in there for me? You know? If I look into non-duality, and I realize there is no self, then I won't be suffering. I'll be only attracting nice people to my life. I'll be making bigger money, and I, I, I, I. And this is, again, this is some sort of an attraction Distrust, distrust, distrust, distrust. Yeah. And also this is the attraction that comes about on the initial stage when the consciousness plays with itself, when it completely identifies as individual and it completely obsesses about itself and it attracts, it is attracted to the idea of enlightenment being endless pleasure or it's attracted to the idea of being free from any obstacles, like I'm not going to be creating negative people in my life and I'm not going to be creating poverty.

All that ideas are so sweet, they are so romantic, they are so nice. But there is a time on the path when that ideas have to drop off and basically be recognized as just another layer of a dream. They have to be waken up from. Because if I think, okay, I'll keep investigating because for me it will be more profitable to live life without suffering. It will be more, it will make more sense and I will be a better person and I will be affecting others and helping others. Well, it is to a certain extent, it is the truth. But again, if the motivation is selfish, that's a dream.

It's not going to happen. The me that is going to be nicer and is going to have more attractive dream and is going to be having nicer people or more objects in their lives. That me. It's a fiction. That me is a dream. So dreaming about shit that is going to be get better for the me is just, it's just a romantic idea that at some point has to drop off. And then people will have to probably start asking better questions. But those are very sweet. Those are very romantic. It was. What do you answer them usually? Because there is a part. Yeah. I think there is a part of that, you know, when you are not nasty anymore, like why people get nasty?

People get nasty because they feel threatened because they are unhappy because they feel inferior. Why would anyone want to diminish or put down anybody else because they feel inferior and they feel insecure. So if that sense of inferiority and insecurity drops off, I have no business to compete with anyone to tell anyone that, oh, you know what? I'm better than you. Oh, you are worse. You are, you are ugly. I have absolutely no investment in that. So obviously I'll be, I won't be putting people down because it just gives me, it's just no point. So I'll be nicer if I'm not suffering. I won't be hurting other people.

Yes, there is part of it, but if that's a motivation to actually get to investigation, because I will gain. Yeah. Well, that's, that's very immature motivation. However, consciousness or life can play that game this way. And this is exactly perfect because this is what life wants at this point. But yes, there are better, better questions to be asked than what is in there for me at some point. But that's what probably leads most people into it in the first place, isn't it? That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And that's how the that's how the whole dream has been arranged.

That's how the suffering is the gift, because without the suffering, there wouldn't be rushing out from it, and there wouldn't be a possibility to wake up. So that's that's the beauty of it. And yeah, those ideas, they're sweet. They're really romantic. They really are. They're so precious. I guess at some level. can turn up just to see how much clarity you have around that it can turn up just as a story as well and still turn up so like for me there was just a move to come here and then there was probably a light story about there's more there's a better way of being in life might as well go see what it is yeah but coming here but it was really clear that there was just a move to come here that was all there was to it and still is and that's and that's it and it used to be you know two three years ago probably that light story about that probably was there for decades about yeah but maybe at some point probably that story dropped off that's a very well said because yeah there is a better life of living there is a life of the way of living that that is effortless and and painless and natural and is flowing but now everything is not but it's story and look like as you said you are moved to come here that's the reality i moved to come here because this this this it's a story so it's nothing wrong with having that story initially when you feel that everything through the mind you may not come without the story because the story inc the story inc is such a deeply ingrained habit it's almost like breathing you know you're breathing and story in so the story of there is a better way of living or this ecstasy or bliss or the story that I will be helping others or whatever the story is is just an overlayer on the natural movement if there is an attraction towards non-duality the the consciousness will find the way to move the body and find its group to to sit and and absorb the frequency and tune into it and the story overlaying it yeah it's sweet it's romantic is but it's just a story it's just it's just a narrative it doesn't matter and this is often we all using stories we speaking words all the time so I'm actually defeating my own way of pointing because on one hand we try to say it in the way that will be the most plain the most obvious the the easiest to grasp because mostly people who are listening they don't really understand how to switch off the interpreting services and listen with pure resonating with absorbing with the complete receptivity so they will be listening through through the mind and there will be agreeing and disagreeing with the pointers feeding them into the logic so when the pointers are really plain and really basic and really logical they may strike home but they may also stop in the mind because oh yeah it makes sense yeah yeah that makes sense yeah I'm buying it so well sometimes the distrust is the way see Bob is and he's distrust and his doubtfulness doubting everything checking everything verifying yes yes really disbelieving absolutely every word On one way, you kind of seem to be, need to be receptive and have faith and just relax into the message and it will take you where it needs to take you.

On the other hand, you do have to, every single word, verify with your experience because nobody can really describe the experience in the way to make you feel it because that is going to be imagination. If I describe it so well that you will feel it, that will be the mirror and you know that will be an imagination that will induce the experience and that's not where we want to end. That has to be verified like really this mango has to be tasted or this wok has to be walked. So the investigation is about questioning everything like, okay, whatever I'm saying is nonsense, is bullshit.

You can very easily, I can prove it to myself very easily, oh boy, I got it after my father, I can prove absolutely anything. Yeah. I can tear apart every word I'm saying and make it absolutely ridiculous. Easy. But that's not the point. The point is to go beyond the mental commentary for or against anything. It is to go beyond this white noise that is going on into the pure experiencing, unadorned or uncovered, unvarnished. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Why not, what is more relevant and the answer to it is nothing. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we stay with each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A great point. I think we all are the same, but we have not stay the same. Yes. We are different. Or maybe we are the same. Yeah. image and now I'm the body. See how the embodiment of the concepts is also constantly changing, that consciousness, that one life becomes the other moment to moment and the other is slightly different. Like this morning I had this beautiful nice friendly chat with my mom, I was something else in her eyes and in my role, my temporary role. The consciousness was experiencing itself as something else than it does at this moment, than it does when it plays with the cats or when it cooks.

It's always kind of putting, it's like the, I like the idea of the illusion that Hindu call the Maya. Maya is like a goddess and it's a beautiful goddess, sparkling and blinking and it's having gorgeous dresses and it changes them all the time and it dances. So every moment Maya. Maya has different dress. Every moment the consciousness experience different scenery, different content, different role here, different roles there. Everything covered with concepts, everything interpreted, understood or recognized as something other than the one. But only by those conceptualizing, right? Yeah, of course. That's what you mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what creates the reality. The mind creates the reality.

When you fall asleep and you don't dream, you don't experience any reality. You see, even without the interpretation, if you close your eyes, part of the reality disappears from the experience. If you close your eyes and ears, bigger part of reality disappears from the experience. I still need to close my eyes quite a bit in here just to, you know, be pointed back, if you know what I mean. Because, yeah. Otherwise I'm distracted so much. I'm distracted sometimes if my eyes are open. Yeah, yeah. Like Julia was sitting here and she spent an hour of the meeting attracted to observing what is cat doing and how cat doesn't get attention when it should.

Well, you know, depends what's important. Depends what you value. I mean, of course it's entertaining. Of course we can watch the movies all the time. But if you're really about seeing through the seeing, close your eyes. Not just... Nothing easier. I think, yeah, one of the triggers for me is like responding like a proper person in a proper meeting. So, you know, somebody might be looking my way. I'm expected to like, you know, nod, but I'm not actually listening to what they're saying so I can't. That would be, you know, and that distracts me. So I just shut my eyes and go back to what's really, what's here, what's...

Very, very wise. Yeah. Very wise. Except there's no feeling, oh, I'm going to shut my eyes now and I've got to do it. It just happens. I know. I know. I know. Yeah. That's recognition of the brilliance of the intelligence. It knows what to do moment to moment. And it is actually a nice thing to realize how much our reality relies on the senses. And the senses have been trained. And the senses have been trained also with the language, with the vocabulary. For people who speak few languages, they often recognize that personality slightly changes. When you use different language because your vocabulary is different. There are certain words that exist in one language and they don't in the other.

People say in Spanish my arms move a lot more. There you go. Yeah. So the whole appearance is really the interpretation of the pure field of probability, of pure emptiness, dancing with the particles and atoms or whatever you want to call it. And they are... The brains or the minds are trained. They are trained. The senses are trained to label them out of that emptiness and move around this reality that has been dreamt. It's a collective dream that has been dreamt, including the bodies. It's nothing anywhere, nothing physical or real anywhere. The energy equals matter by light speed square. And you said in paradigms. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't stop us from fully appreciating the beautiful Maya, the beautiful appearance, the illusion. It's gorgeous. It's to be loved. It's the wanting or the wanting, the primary dream of experiencing itself as the other, experiencing the emptiness, experiencing itself as the form that create that marvelous manifestation. So it is totally not annihilistic. It's not annihilistic denial of the beautiful manifestation. It's actually falling in love with it fearlessly because when it is taken to be a reality, there is a fear involved. There is a fear that if the world is out there and I am in here, I'm separated from the world, then of course the world is going to be...

World is the other. It's going to harm me one way or the other. Yeah. It's going to harm me the other. And the idea of suffering, the idea of loss, the idea of any sort of resistance towards the world because there is two of us. There is me and the world. That's painful. That's... And I am nothing and the world is nothing. How can that be two? It's not. But it appears to be and that is to be celebrated. But it can be celebrated also. It can be celebrated only when it is embraced as the mystery and beauty, not as a threat. It doesn't mean that if somebody will want to put me on the cross tomorrow for what I'm saying, that there won't be any punching.

There may be punching, but even that is all right. I need a new set of nails. A new set of what? Nails. I don't like my nails. I'm going to have it. Put her on the cross. Not really. Come on, people. Jump in. I know it's just so obvious that nobody has any questions, but you know, we can just debate a little bit because... I'll be chatting for about three or four hours. Well, we may enjoy the silence if nobody wants to jump in. Yeah. It was like that transmission this morning. It was just right away. It was like that. Nobody had anything to say.

Nobody had anything to say. Nothing came up for the first time in a while. And it was like, oh, there were just flashing lights going on then, just as the chap could see. And it was like, oh, just shut us up. Whatever happened, we just all... So we went straight into the transmission instead, and then questions came later. But it was just unusual. All of us just felt incredibly comfortable. Cool. We had a lot of turmoil during the night and other things, but it was just comfort. So where was this? Oh, I just know I've got to go to the transmission. And that's something incredible.

Yeah. I'm going to go to the hospital. I'm going to go to the hospital. I'm going to go to the hospital. I'm going to go to the hospital. That's a different vocabulary, because I was actually asking... Oh, no, it wasn't me. It was Julia asking, what is that word transmission? Like, you know, there is an idea that someone has to be initiated by someone else. Yeah, so you forget all that and just go with... Yeah. ... some kind of energy. Life happens. Resonance. Basically. Resonance. And then she told... And then she told Julia that if you see clearly through the dream, even without an initiation or whatever, you're already kind of transmitting whether you want it or not.

And if you are not seeing through illusion, you're also transmitting. You know, this is all game of frequencies. This is all vibrations. So you're basically transmitting your reality or your view. You are transmitting or you are displaying or, like, participating in that. But there are people who are attracted to traditions and rituals. They are attracted to the tradition of a Shaktipat when... Well, one of my very good friends is attracted to the idea that only a great guru can introduce you to natural state. Like, come on, if it's natural, why would you need anyone? But people do... And this is how the consciousness is playing out through these people.

They need to have someone who is confirmed or there is someone who got a transmission from someone and is authorized to transmit. Or someone who will poke you with the... How do you call it? The peacock feather or something? Or induced Kundalini and all that stuff. They may or may not wake up from it. It is up to life. Life may dream that dream for the rest and that's fine. It's nothing wrong. This is life dreaming every single dream. This is a dream. This is a dream. Everything is a dream. So whatever the life is wanting to experience, they say, oh, I'm awakened and I'm qualified.

I'm qualified to awaken you. Whatever. It's romantic. It's beautiful. And some people are attracted to it and they will find it. And I was just saying, there's just life happening. Yeah. And, you know, there's just transmission from awakening and that's all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. Yeah, yeah. And Adi Shanti, what he genuflected for 20 years or something and then one day in the middle of it, oh, okay, that's it. You know, you don't know what it's going to be. Yeah, yeah. It's basically waking you up from the dream. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake.

I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. I'm awake. Yeah, yeah. It's basically waking up from any ideas. Like if you are practicing meditation, you may wake up from the idea that meditation is your path. Or Zen is your path. Or a 12-step program is your path. If there is no you, what can be your path? What can be your way? So it is really just seeing everything as a story, beautiful story. Okay. I like that matter. I like just open minded. I don't have the sceptical side so much. Not in all parts of my life but yeah. I'm sceptical about certain powers behind governments but apart from that, that's just fun.

It doesn't matter. That's interesting. I think, you know, if you take Enneagrams, the suspicion thing runs deep I think in Australia. Some people will say it's quite a thing but you know. Comparing to who? To what? Is this person worthy of listening to? If you're open minded you'll get demoted. Right, cancel it out. And then it's great when the idea of belief either way has to happen or not. And then if the idea of belief has to happen either way, it drops off and you're really just, there's just a riding of it. It's a spontaneous experience with no looking at it, no need to trust.

I'd love you to sit somewhere. Can you kind of set, oh look I'm very much still kind of operating from a me and there was the implication that you had nothing to offer or nothing to share or nothing relevant to say. Do you recall that? I sort of recall. I don't recall the exact words. Yeah, yeah, I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. If I didn't have a me issue I wouldn't feel any. Yeah. I don't recall the intimidation with the camera. I was clear with it. Yeah. Cool. And I noticed that I, you know, had anxiety over this and that during the day. Yeah. And at other times, you know, I do experience, you know, and I mentioned the other day, you know, that I think that Kat said that Bob said fake it until you make it.

I can sort of experience, you know. If it was like that and I felt that way. I would say stop faking the otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite wonderful. Yeah. When you're just walking into a meet. Yeah. Anyway. So how long have you been coming here to Bob's? Oh, well, since January I think. I don't know. That beginning of the year. Yeah. Okay. And I'm going to ask you to be as honest as you can. Sure. Okay. Are you still trying to find something? Oh, look, when I reflect on my period of coming here, I've been interested in these things. I feel as though I've found so many helpful things just in daily life, you know, that Bob's mentioned and thinking about them.

I've sort of been aware of these things but with listening over and over and coming along, they've become makeup. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And so I feel as though I've got so many benefits. So I'll ask the question again. Yeah. Just see if you can answer it without the story. Okay. Okay? Yeah. Are you still trying to find something? Because often when I think about it, I just think, oh, this is it. It's kind of, it's really, it's kind of a yes or no answer. Right. If you're being honest. Look, I feel as though I'm really open to an experience that I see other people have.

Yeah. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. But it hasn't occurred yet. Okay. It could occur now. Yeah. Or if I were on my dying bed and it hadn't. It's kind of what happens before then. Wouldn't matter. Possibly. Yeah. So there's still, there's still a looking, there's still a kind of feeling like you have a feeling that you're not going to die. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. trying to find something or acquire something or understand something or get something, you will never get it. And what we're told here and in a lot of non-dual books and circles and teachings and so on is that what we need to be trying to do is to find self. So generally what we do, and it's okay, it's totally okay, but at some point you've got to turn around. But generally what we do is we try and find the answers out there.

Whether it's coming here and listening to Bob or reading a book, you know, kind of out there. And it's, you know, it can be a real, hmm, I'm going to use the word, it can be a real mind fuck. Okay? Because it's kind of like saying, look, I've hidden something in this room. Okay? And the only way you're going to find what's hidden literally in this room is for you to disappear. And the head kind of goes, what? Yeah. If I disappear, then I can't even be here to find what I'm looking for. Ah, there's a little pointer in there. And I, you know, you're so diligent.

I hear you coming along the way. Yeah. You're telling me all the, like you're here virtually every, every night. I do. I'm such a slow learner or whatever. Yeah, well, maybe. You know. It's like, I don't necessarily think you're a slow learner. I just think you're looking in the wrong place. That's good. That's all. Yeah. You know, and, and. And I can see that may is no use for, you know, it's just a bother. So, you know, in that sense, I don't feel terribly frightened of losing may. So what you just acknowledge is that you're not going to find it. Yeah. You know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And you don't know who'd look for me after one night of effort.

Ha! Me still here is me is still here. Mm. And I'm not too fussed whether it's comes or goes or. Mostly. Yeah. Okay, all right, great. All right. That's what I meant by hones- there's the acknowledgement that may is still here. Mm-hmm. Okay. And... Because I have... Sure. Listen, listen. You can have... You can still have periods of anxiety, my friend. You can. Oh, yeah, yeah. But anxiety is a... Be anxious. So what... Excuse the words I use. What efforts have you made? And I mean this literally. What efforts have you made to go searching for me? I think I do it in a leisurely sort of fashion over a number of years.

Okay. It's not intense. I don't seem to have that ability to focus for long periods. But every day I would spend a number of hours, you know. Where are you looking? Well, I'm looking at, you know, the dream world. And seeing it as things that pop out of the ground or other things to be needed to be pruned and altered. When you say the dream world... Sorry for jumping in there. When you say the dream world, can you be more specific about that? What do you mean when you say that? Oh, yeah. The space objects, all that stuff. Okay. You know, the experience of the body and hearing...

And then I have lots of feelings of my, you know, consciousness feel. That everything is happening out there or, you know, experiencing in this room. You know, like sometimes I have this feeling of space. You know, that's what I've come to understand, to hear about when you talk about space here. Up until I came here, I don't... I just thought there was nothing else. Now... I see this... Appearing in what? Well, it's through my senses. My inside touch, smell. You know, that's how I'm experiencing. Not by what? In what? In what? Well, I can see the possibility of this. You can see the possibility? Yeah.

So you're still understanding it conceptually? Yeah, yeah. But it feels right? It... Look... It feels right. Even though you can acknowledge it's still conceptual. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that it's conceptual, but it feels right. Yeah, I can see it's conceptual. So, tell me what you found when you go looking for your core me. And there's this... There's this awareness that I can remember having from a tiny child, and that's never changed. Yeah. And it's still this thing. But also, coming along here, I've always thought of this awareness as something that's there, but a bit boring to look at, you know? There's much more interesting other things.

Did you hear the question I asked? And perhaps you could ask me again. What have you found when you've gone looking for the core me? And... I didn't ask about awareness or... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't ask about fluff. Yeah. Because that was all fluff where I'm at. Yeah, that's fluff. And there's this... It is an awareness. So, what you're saying is that... And I do identify with the awareness. Hold it, hold it. So, what you're saying is that this core me is awareness? Because that's what I just heard you say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think... So, that that still is reaching and trying to attain and get is awareness?

Is that what you're saying? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. But being... Well, that's what you've just said. Yeah. I'm contradicting myself. Yeah. And that's okay. And that's okay. I'm just wanting you to... I'm trying to hone in a bit here. Yeah. Because you're kind of a bit all over. It's an anal visual. That's okay. That's totally okay. That's okay. Yeah. So, again, I'm asking you, what efforts have you gone to to really seek that sense of meanness that's there? Like how much have you actually looked? And what... How much. OK. If you have looked, what have you found?

I feel all I can say is I've found something that has never changed. Beautiful. Yeah? Yeah. Great. Terrific. Now, tell me about what you found in relation to the personal identity, the me. It still feels like it's here and still feels like it hasn't got something that others appear to have got. I want you to talk to me about that. Not... That's, you know, sounds like the story of who I think I am. That's okay. That's probably pretty good. Nothing's popping up. So, in your most... It's life's drama of, you know, changing things where nothing's... So, what I'm alluding to is... You discovering this me that's here or there that's verbalizing everything that comes out of your mouth.

I don't mean everything. Life's changing. There's this and that. Oh, and there's this and that. Who or what's saying that? Or who or what is aware of that? Or who or what believes that? Have you gone in? Because it's one... Look, it's one thing. You know, it's one thing to observe that, you know, like thoughts just sort of come and go. And when I'm in the moment, you know, and life's flowing and I'm in that flow, everything's wonderful. And, yeah, look, that's all fine and dandy. But you're telling me you still feel a sense of me. My question is, how much of a look have you actually had?

Really? Oh. Look, I feel... I've done as much as I'm... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But that's not... Look, if I'm sounding critical, I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm just trying to be direct. Sure. Yeah. I'll ask it again and just see what happens, yeah? How much of a look have you had? I think I've done the best I could. I don't doubt that. You're still not answering the question. I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that at any given point in time you're doing your best. Yeah. Don't doubt that for a second. Okay. I would never doubt that. Yeah. Tell me about the looking. Tell me about...

Tell me about that. When you've looked, tell me. Describe it. Describe it. Because you're pretty good at describing a whole lot of other stuff. We just learned. But describe that. Describe your actual experience of looking. Tell me what happens. Tell me what you do. Tell me. Describe it. Well, that's okay. That's okay. So there might be something in what I'm saying. Yes. Because what came up for you is, I don't know, fucking great. Whenever that comes up, that's awesome. Anytime I don't know comes up, awesome. Like I kept saying before, you know, it's kind of two ways you can do this. You know, I'm not the body.

I'm not the body. I'm not this. I'm not this, this, this, this, this, this. Or you could also go, I don't know. I don't know if I'm this or not. I actually don't know. I don't know is a really great place. Footstop, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, in that I don't know-ness, you stop. Everything stops. But when the I know comes up, there's a freaking huge story attached to that. And I can't wait to tell you what I fucking know. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I've said this before. That, that. Self-identity or that, that means, you know, it's, I don't know how else to describe this, but it's quite deep.

It's really close, like really close. So close that we don't even notice it. We don't even notice that we're still operating from it. We think we're still operating from it. We don't notice it because you can say things like, yeah, I've seen this. I've seen that. And I understand I'm not the body. And. I've seen all the social concepts and belief systems that I've had and hanging on to the story of my life, which is created the me. And I can see the nonsensicalness of all that. You know, I can see that. And what we fail, what we failed to see is that that is saying I see that who are what's that that just said that because initially we come here and, you know, you know.

we start seeking and quite quickly we understand well quite quickly that's relative but there comes a point where we see and we understand that hang on I'm not actually what I think about myself I'm not what I think about myself for example you know you might have you know you might be you might be an adult and you have extreme low self-esteem yeah and you kind of discover that that low self-esteem is just about a story that you're telling yourself right so this great example right there you said that stop yeah that's what I mean by it's closer and we run with it and we kind of you know initially we kind of disidentify with memory and the imagined self that I've brought into the present call that me I mean that's really really insane straight off the bat if you look at that I'm gonna bring the past into the present and I'm gonna call that me I can know at best all I'm doing is bring in a memory into the present calling that me like and the memory is only a description of what actually happened it's not the actual so we take the description to be me that's wacko logically like logically if you just look at that that's crazy but we all do it we are question it if you actually start the question questions like this.

it and look at it my god what i feel like so i do now question that that just said that who i do do that a lot and i do what's that who's that who said that who said that where'd that come from do you understand gosh yeah so that that's i feel like i get to that point so it's it's kind of deeper but that's the wrong word to use it's close it's really close we don't even we don't even realize that that it's happening or that we're doing it until someone will ask the question a bubble nail and then goes who wants to know that's all these pointing at oh i don't understand you know i you know i've been coming here for years and i still can't get this and i've seen all the stuff that you've taught and racka racka racka and he'll sit there and goes well who wants to know a question great so question that that just said all that who or what's that who said that who said that but look and be and just try and become more a aware of the fact that stuff is still coming out here and you're identifying with it there's still you that believes it's either saying something or not saying something or coming here or not coming here or getting stuff and i've learned and i've experienced this and you understand that's the that's what's being caught that's what's being caught and that's what needs to be seen and it's real simple that's when it gets easy when it gets easy to get hang on a minute and it usually gets quiet too there's nothing conceptual about it there's nothing conceptual about hang on tell me turn watch watch it as soon as it comes out ah who's that what's that what's that because you you know if you want if you want what's on offer the only way that's going to occur is for you to disappear that meanness that identity that's got to go but for it to go you've got to see it see the falseness it's a phantom it's a total phantom father christmas i love that saying yeah you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you yeah you you you you you you you you I I still believe in father christmas yeah so what you need to be asking is who or what is it that just said I still believe in father christmas see how close it is yeah I do yeah I do eventually you've got to turn and look for yourself you've got to otherwise if you don't do that you'll just hang on to a whole lot of concepts and then the rest of you will be going to hell and understandings about this.

And you won't be able to embody it as such. Can I say that? Don't worry much about being a slow learner or being a fast learner because the one who is slow or fast or any sort of learner is precisely the one that is going to just prove itself to be a dream, the Father Christmas. And we are a bit over time now, so I guess that will be... No, that's cool. That was helpful. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. That's the sign knowing that tells you I don't know. Yeah.