Sailor Bob and the group on neti neti and more... 11 Sept 2018

Hello! Hello! Come on, Tina. Good evening, everyone. Would you like to say your name in case someone doesn't know anyone? Sure. Terry? Tony? Julia? Robin? Bob! Thank you! I just wanted to know who you were. You are not the thing. You are not the label, right? No. Who are you? Who are you really? Bob is a lie. Who am I? Yes. I am that pure intelligence energy that expresses as this pattern or label. We call Bob. Cool. Who are you? I can tell you who am I not. How about that? Good. How do we go? I can tell all of you who am I not or what am I not.

I am not this. I am not this or this or this. And ultimately I am all of it also. But just for the heck of pointing. Neti neti is a functional sort of way of investigating which basically means because, well, I don't know why am I saying it, but I heard from someone that this sort of this association creates a sense of isolation and sense of a coldness that I am not the body. I don't care about the body. I don't feel warm towards the body. I am not the mind. I don't care about the thinking. You know, it's kind of feels kind of cold and also it feels like there is two of us.

The one that I am not, the body mind and all the rest, and the one that I am, the one who is doing the neti neti. So this is the limitation of the pointer. The neti neti pointer has different function. It is not to create sense of isolation. It is not to make you feel cold towards the appearance. This is all illusion. I don't care. I am not that. It's not. The neti neti pointer is to bring you to the point when you realize that you are nothing tangible, nothing that can be grasped in any way. Yet you still feel the existence. You still feel that you are.

You may say you are nothing because for the mind it is nothing. But it is absolutely not a void. It is not an empty nothingness because the feeling of aliveness, the joy of being is part of it. The knowing of being is part of it. So neti neti is to leave you with the sense that you are nothing perceivable or conceivable like Nisargadatta said it. But it doesn't mean that you don't exist or you are nothing. Yet for the mind when investigation keeps you in the point when I am nothing that's the point when you realize oh my god but everything else is also nothing.

It's like Bob is pointing can anything come from nothing? It can't. So obviously it has to be nothing appearing as the other. So it has to be just an appearance. So if I am nothing and everything else is also nothing then where is the separation? There is no separation. So the initial separation that comes from the idea of saying what I am not and then I am left with what I am is only initial. But in the process it may create sense of coldness or aliveness or isolation and it happens because, yeah this is funny, it happens because it kind of makes sense. Of course it makes sense I can observe my body so I am not my body because the body is an object in my consciousness or is something that I am aware of.

I am not my mind or my thinking because I can be aware of my thinking. Ramana Maharshi was saying it the same way. Because I am aware of this and that it can't be the me, it can't be the observer or the witness or the awareness. It has to be the other. It makes sense. So there we are. Welcome home in the mind. If something makes sense, if something is logical, if something is convincing, alright I'll believe it. That's not the point. This whole thing is not about believing things that make sense. It's not about things that are logical therefore I'll accept it. Therefore, yeah it fits into what I've known already.

It fits into my previous ideas. Alright, I agree with you. Yeah, I am not the body mind. Shit. And then yeah, okay I'm not the body mind but I'm still unhappy. Everything is still about me and life is a hell. That's not what it is meant to be. That's not where the investigation is supposed to leave us. So that's, it's just good to know the limitations of the pointers because this comes, yeah, in absence of any other ideas, it comes from the question that I got recently because on previous meeting I mentioned that there is a place in which you don't know whether you are the body or you are not the body or you are the mind or you are not the mind.

Not only you don't know but you don't care. You don't ask the question. There is no questioner to actually ask the question about that. So this is the place where the mind is not. Because if the investigation still going on, okay, I agree. I'm not what I'm aware of. I'm not the body mind. Yeah, that's true. There is still the commentary. There is still someone who is agreeing or disagreeing with it. There is still someone who is accepting it or allowing it or believing it. This is not about beliefs. This is about the plain experiencing. So the place in which there is no idea, there is no need for investigation.

The mind may be appearing and chattering or commenting or fitting or not fitting into the belief. But there is there is an awareness of it all. It is happening in the space like awareness or cognizing emptiness. It is being known by this cognizing emptiness. This place doesn't present the same trap. Because there isn't any need here for fitting anything into a logic or into our previous recognitions, insights or because the same thing happens with insights. I had an insight. Who is the I that had it? If there is an I that had an insight or the I that had the long experience or the then the job is not done.

The investigation has to continue. Because the offering that non-duality brings is the life free from the I. Free from any relating life in which there is no abiding preference. And of course the preference may come up. Otherwise there wouldn't be any functionality. Daily functionality is based on certain preferences that were ingrained and programmed into the whole system. So we know which dress to buy or whatever. But abiding preferences and the preferences which bring about that sense of I don't want to lose it. I have to maintain it. I have to keep it. The resistance which when something that I like shows up I will do anything in my power to keep it.

Or when something I don't like shows up I'll do anything in my power to push it away. The pushing away may happen. The keeping may happen. But if there is no relating to the I that is very involved and is preoccupied with, is not giving it an importance, then again this is natural functioning. And it's really, really good and it's been a wonderful way to verify it. The way Bob taught me about looking out in nature. If there is any doubt, any sort of concern what's natural functioning and what's unnecessary relating to the self and superimposing the conceptual image or entity and retranslating the world into the illusion.

Look out in nature. Look at the animals. Do they choose? Seemingly so. But they are not relating to a choice maker. They are not taking responsibilities for the choices. Doesn't mean that if they choose wrongly, like we see our cats jumping on the shelf from one shelf to the other and they misjudge a distance. Doesn't happen very often, but it does. Makes us all laugh. That's evil. Yeah. They drop down. So they are, there is a responsibility or there is a consequence of every seeming choice or every seeming decision that the animals are making or taking. So normal functionality, we can see from that examples from looking out at life that everything that is happening in life is just functioning, is just normal living.

It's like the body is being lived. The thoughts are being secreted by the mind, just like the hormones are being secreted, or saliva, or whatever. Everything is functioning. Now on top of it, there may be a commentary going on. And if that commentary is retranslating the natural happening into a story about me, into a story about me being a victim, or me succeeding, or me whatever, then of course the dream, the basic functioning, the beautiful seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, witnessing this moment of life in its beautiful uniqueness is being covered by the story that is superimposed on top of it. And if that's a pleasurable story, nice story, positive story, okay, no drama.

But if the habit of making stories there, it will vibrate into its opposite. Not today, okay fine, tomorrow. For granted, if you have the habit of retranslating the pure existence into the story about me, it's not going to be a positive story 24 7. And the suffering will kick in. And if a lot of people live with little amount of suffering, then they are fine. And that's how life wants it. But there is a possibility of waking up from that habit of superimposing a story about me on the reality, on the plain, cognizing, intelligent reality that is dancing in front of itself for fun, for joy of being, for love of being.

So that's the invitation. And there's enough of evidence around the world that it is doable, it is possible. It is not to be done by the doer, but it's happening. It's happening through many, many channels. And there is no reason why it wouldn't be happening through the body-mind that you brought in here. So usually what stands in the way is just a habit. That's the only difference. It's the habit, one habit that can be broken, even if it's recognized. It can't be broken by a conscious effort of the person. But while when it's recognized repeatedly, just as the habit of storying, the energy that fuels that pattern is withdrawn into the recognition, into the waking up of the pattern.

And what the fire without fuel, how long is that going to burn? So that pattern of storying is basically starved. The attention doesn't go there anymore. It is starved and it breaks. And then the life starts, life is going on all the time. But the life is, suddenly the seeing is through the clean glass, not through the glass full of retranslating, conceptualizing, conditioning. It's like a murky glass that as if you are driving a vehicle and you're looking through the windscreen that is completely covered. So, when that covering is removed, the life is coming back to itself. It lives in the way, like in nature, as in nature.

It welcomes everything. It welcomes rain and it welcomes drought. And it doesn't even do the welcoming. It just it's already being allowed since it shows up. But it just dances. It just, it it just expresses itself. It's just being alive. You want to add anything? No, not particularly. It's just, except as you started off with, it's not just a matter of mouthing the words, I'm not the body or the mind. Yeah. People do that constantly. They say, okay, I'm not the body or I'm not the... It's a matter of seeing what they all appear on. The body-mind, as they say, is appearance only. It's all that phenomenality.

Phenomenal. That which appears to be. What's the movie on the screen? On the screen appears on the screen now. What's all this phenomenality appearing on? That basic screen, the stillness and the silence that you are. Can you postulate anything that's not coming out of the silence or the stillness? Anything that stands on its own, as the Buddha tells you. There's no... What is it? I'm forgetting this. My mind's gone to me now. There's no static point anywhere. And there's no self-nature to anything. So it's all constantly appearing and disappearing. And if I use this term non-duality, and people have given it a label as something real now, but can there be any duality in non-duality?

Can there be non-duality in duality? If it's all the one essence. That's what needs to be recognized, grasped. See what happens then. Yeah. Okay. Is there anything you don't know about all that? Do you have any questions? The irony is when you started the talk on neti neti, it's like can get confusing because you're being told two things. I'm not that, I'm not the mind, I'm not the body, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. And in the next breath, you get told you're everything. So that neti neti process, if you like, is purely for the conceptual individual me. So that can be seen. And we go through that, you know.

And I've shared this a lot of times, you know. Okay, it can take some time, or it did for me, to see I'm not the product of anything that's appearing in the mind. I'm none of that. Okay? Neti neti, I'm not that. And... Not this, it is. Neti neti is not this, not that. You must be that. Yes, sorry. Wrong terminology. And we go through, you know, seeing, you know, that process is designed for duality. Or designed for the limitation of the mind, or of duality. So we can understand dualistically, okay, you know, I can see Julia sitting over there, and I know I'm not that.

Because after all, I'm sitting here. So dualistically, we can sort of start to get a little bit of a hold on this. Bob used to use the expression, I haven't heard you use it for a long time, you know, but, you know, if you get a thorn stuck in your hand, how do you get the thorn out? You pick another thorn, and you dig it out, and once you've dug it out, you throw them both away. So that neti neti process is what's being used to try and dig the thorn out. And then ultimately, that gets thrown out as well, the neti neti process, yeah.

Not this. Um, then, after exploring as much as can possibly be explored with that process, the neti neti process, in my case, what I was primarily left with, after I went through the process of kind of seeing, you know, or believing what I'm not, ultimately, I just got left with myself. I knew all that, I got it, just like Kat was saying, I knew all that, I got it, but Jesus Christ, I still feel like I'm here and I'm stuck. So the last thing, the last thing for me to see was that core me. And going through that neti neti process, there's a core me that's seeing and saying, yep, I can see I'm not that, and I'm not that, and I'm not that.

And I'm not that, and I'm not that, and so on. And in the end, you kind of come to that realization as an innate knowing that that's true, but I still feel like I'm here. I still feel like I'm stuck. And that's that I that Kat was referring to, you know, when we say things like, I thought I had it and then I lost it. Or, I've come to see everything that I'm not, and I don't know what else to do now, because I still feel like I'm here. It still feels like there's a me here. So it, you come to a point, if you like, of all, all you are left with is a sense of me.

Just a, a pure sense of me. And that's the final thing to be looked at. And it's not complicated, because it kind of feels like it's here. But it's not complicated, because it's here. And you don't know what it is or where it is, but it kind of feels like it's here. And you're just more interested in, where is it? What, what is that? Where am I? Instead of going through the complicated process that we did prior to that, which is okay, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this. And then observing that on a daily basis throughout the course of our day, and watching thoughts coming and go, that's, we kind of need to, we need to do that.

But ultimately you get slammed back. You get slammed right back to here. And when that happens, it's really, really simple. In that, it's not complicated. There's just that point of self-inquiry. What is that? Who is that? What's saying I? What's saying, you know, now I don't know what to do. You know, what now? Who or what is saying that? I understand I'm not any of the thinking. Got all that. Even conceptually understood, conceptually understood, I'm not the body. I'm not over there. I'm not that thing. I'm not that thing. And just come back to, and you just come back to that primary sense of a me-ness.

And the reason it feels so real, I've said before, it attaches to and identifies with the aliveness, with the presence. That's why it feels real. Because it's taking ownership of this sense of presence. Of this sense of awareness. It's my presence. It's my awareness. It's my seeing. It's my hearing. I'm experiencing everything through all the senses. Who the fuck is saying that? That's what needs to be looked at. Not all the other stuff. Not all the other stuff that just kind of rabbits on through our head through the course of the day. Although, that still needs to be seen. Absolutely needs to be seen. So then you come to, then, when that is fully seen, and it drops away, then the paradox is which is the complete opposite to where we started, I am everything.

Everything. Including a thought that may flow through. A feeling in the body. The body. The carpet. I am that. As Bob says, I am that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that. Everything. It's the complete opposite end to where we start. But that's the only way that we would conceptually be able to even get a start with this investigation. Is to use the mind. The dualistic process of the mind. It's the only way. Because if we didn't do that, Bob would just sit there and say none of you exist. At all. I know you think you do, but none of you exist. And you are the intelligence energy.

Thanks for coming. See you next week. And that would be it. But that's not the process that happens. It doesn't. Yeah, but there's a whole lot of stuff that gets said too. And a whole lot of stuff that gets shared. Here as well. If that's all he said, conceptually or dualistically, we wouldn't be able to grasp that. I can't grasp from a conceptual understanding that I'm everything and I'm nothing. It just can't. Swings in the pairs of polaric opposites. It's quite limited. But it gets used for a little while. It does get used for a little while. And then when you dug that thorn out with that other thorn, which is the mind digging the mind out, if you like.

And then when that's seen, you pop that down. And then you go, I'm still here. What's that? And what is this here-ness? And what is this presence? And then the focus or the attention just becomes on that. And it's quite, it becomes quite laser pointed. It's not fragmented. Awareness isn't fragmented all over the place. You've kind of got to go through, in my experience, go through all that fragmentation to say, okay, yep, I give up. Now what? Because I still feel like I'm here. And Bob would say, who still feels like you're here? Oh, um, well, no, I'm not that, I'm not that, I'm not that, I'm not that.

So who still feels like I'm here? Buggered if I know. We'll go looking for it. That's when the real search Bob is going to say something. Yeah, that's where we say, we're not the body, we're not the mind. But the me or the mind and you ask, look at, what is it? When you investigate, who am I, what am I? And you come to it, I-self. And he says it comes down to finishing, just as I, I. As soon as we say me or mind, of course the idea of an entity will be there because it's a personal self we've taken to believe. And that's not the question.

We say I'm not the body, I'm not the mind. But when we come to the me or the mind, the body, mind, idea is just a mental concept. You have this. It's just to say my house, my car. You know you're not the car. So my self, can you be that? So what's the I, I that's left? It is the self. And that is the only self. I-self. When he says I, I, he doesn't add anything to it. That's all there is, is I-self. And it's the one self appearing as everything. That's the last thing to go. That conceptual image that seems something solid. And then anybody ever, and you look into it, ever found anything solid or substantial there?

It feels like a knot. But when you investigate it, there's nothing there. Also another way that Bob is offering. Neti neti is one of the ways to investigate that has been designed and offered to seekers. But the way Bob is offering it for... Oh, hello. Another way that Bob is often talking about is instead of looking what you are not, start from the fact that you are already that. Like start from it. Because everything is that. So you have to be that. There is no other way. If you doubt it, well, just you know, like just trust it. And then see what obscures it. And yet another way that well, it's all one.

But they are just kind of slightly different angles. It's the angle that I mentioned before. It's understand that the mind cannot understand what it is. And the awareness cannot be aware of itself because the awareness is the... the awareing cannot leave itself to evaluate itself. So the question who am I will never ever find the answer. It is unanswerable. It is unverifiable. So the only thing that we can ever know is the fact that we are. But who we are, what we are, this can never ever be objectified. It can never be verified. It will remain mystery forever and ever. And if that one thing is understood properly, then perhaps seeking for who am I can drop.

And now when the seeking drops, what is that is what appears. But okay, I still feel I'm here. I still feel I am. Cool. Okay. So now I have an idea but I am not there yet. I should feel something different. Well, how do I know that? If they say I am that already and they also say that there is absolute impossibility to figure out what I am or what enlightenment is, then if I believe that this is not it, how come? How do I know that? How do I know that this sense of contraction is not it? Or this sense of being here is not it?

What am I verifying it with? Because this is the way to actually spot the obscuration. This is the way to spot the imagination, the belief. So now I can see, ah, alright, so I believe it should be different than it is right now. The way I'm feeling right now, the way I'm experiencing right now is not it yet. It has to be different. How do I know it? Well, I believe it. So now you pinpoint your core belief, the belief that isolates you from the pure experiencing which is going on all the time, 24-7. There is not it's not possible not to be that because that experiencing is that awareness, is that cognizing emptiness.

It's there all the time. If the experience, the content is unpleasant and the identification with the content happened, that's also it. This is also it. Like who am I to say it is not? And how do I know it's not? Did I read it in a book that it is to be a constant bliss or it is to be a constant happiness? Or did someone... What is that belief? What is that imagination that clouds my windscreen? That covers my eyes and make me believe that it didn't happen yet. I'm not that yet because I'm still coming, whatever, doing, thinking, I'm here or whatever. When that is being witnessed, that's already that analogy that I used with starving the fire.

When that is being witnessed in a way that is being recognized as an object in consciousness, that belief, I'm not there yet. I'm not that yet. If that is being seen as a movement in the stillness, then already this energy of belief doesn't flood it anymore. It doesn't fuel it anymore. It doesn't sustain it. And this habitual thinking can be broken. So this is... There are different angles of looking at it, basically because everyone has slightly different filters or conditioning or whatever you want to call it. So there is... Whatever resonates or whatever makes sense is the way... It's like Bob often says, one pointer is enough because all those pointers are into the same one.

So we don't need to understand every pointer. We don't need to sit and unpack twenty or thirty or hundred all that bag of pointers. One is enough because it's really just about digging the well in one place. If one pointer is resonating, like, okay, I don't know what I am. I'll never find out. And just sit with that I don't know because I don't know for the mind is shutting it down. The mind always knows something about something, always have something to say. Having a courage to say I don't know is already staying in that place where there is no mind. And now, if I don't know that it should be different, then it shouldn't.

It's just what is, right here, right now. Or if that one doesn't really strike home, any other pointer, any other pointer, netty netty, okay, I'm not anything that I'm aware of. I'm aware of objects in this room. I'm aware of sounds. I'm aware of sights. So I'm not this because they're content. Fine. That's a good way too. Okay, they're content. It creates seeming isolation between me and the content. It's just temporarily. It's just to strip off the illusions. It is the way to stick with the pointer. If I just stick with it long enough, it will leave me with nothing and everything will reveal its own nature as nothing.

And obviously then, the everything kicks in naturally because and if it doesn't, it means that it's still on a conceptual level. It is still understood because it's logical. So now, the inner guru, the sadguru, the inner guide, the life that is breeding us, that is beating the heart, that very life will move us, will take us. Like Bob is telling sometimes he doesn't like personal stories, but his story is an example of even with the strongest commitment to the place where he was, to the practice which he was doing, life has moved him out. So if any pointer put us in a place where we got stuck, okay, there is an aloofness and there is an isolation and neti neti doesn't take me anywhere.

Life can move you away from it. You may stay with it or you may move on and either way, you're not doing it. Life is doing it because there is no you, there is only life. Life does absolutely everything. So trusting, relaxing into that life that is doing everything anyway, that is growing hair, that is doing the thinking, that is overthinking, that is selfing, that is creating the image, that is the reflection and ego, everything, just relaxing into that natural force that is running the show and is creating that beautiful, magnificent manifestation. And just being aware of that movement is enough. Investigation, it depends if the life moves you to investigate, if the life moves you to sit and meditate, if the life moves you to go and sing or whatever, that's always life.

The problem comes when the mind kicks in and takes credit. No, no, that's my decision, that's my path, that's my commitment. But even that is a sweetness of the movement of life. Playing, hide and seek, playing that okay, now I'll pretend I'm the other, I'm the ego, I'm the choice maker or doer. It's playing, it's playful, it's beautiful. So even that movement and that selfing and that energy of hiding is part of the display and even that can be recognized and that's actually the only way. Because trying to fight with the selfing or with taking decisions, responsibilities, loyalties and all that stuff is also going to be just life.

It's just going to be more energy-unefficient. It's just going to be exhausting. And that's also going to be life, that's fine. Life has so many channels of vehicles of expressions. In some vehicles of expression it will experience the poverty. In some will experience richness of tastes and overweight. In yet other it will experience whatever else. The finding or seeking or not finding. This is the same life living through every individual, through every form, through every tree and every mosquito. And I am that life and you are that life. That's where you need to take the stance of being that life. Because when you say I know, I do, I think, you're really relating it to the personal, egoic.

But as you say, it's all happening spontaneously and naturally. And always just stepping back and stepping back from any doership into the being the awareness, awareness of being. When I am the pure awareness, the pure screen, the pure emptiness in which everything is just dancing, just displaying itself. What can touch me? What can ever harm me? What can I say about the display? I can have judgement about it, but this judgement will be also part of the display. Just relaxing into that life, into the naturalness of life brings me back to the point where I am the emptiness and I am dancing to myself as the form.

Every form, not just this body but everybody. Start from that. Of course, yeah. Because then it is the start point. See, the only problem there is is I and mine. And so that's the egoic self is I. When you add any concept to it, I know I am I or mine. But if you see I as the self, the one self, there is only that one self. It's self knowing, self seeing, self shining, self being. Yeah, start from that because this is really where the game starts. Before that. I don't know. It's just a... I don't know. It's not life. I mean, come on. Life in a suffering, life in bondage, is it really life?

Can you really call it life? It's a... It's kind of like a prelude to life. It's kind of a... Because we all have taste of it all the time. Like, you know, everyone who considers themselves separate individual and who is striving to get reasonably well in life, reasonably successful, reasonably safe. And all that striving and all that fighting, all that fear of future and fear of being rejected and needing attention and needing approval. All that stuff is suffering. But it is not 24-7. We all have moments when there is nothing wrong. We all have moments when we have the taste of the natural state. Where everything is fine.

Everything is just as it is and there is no problem. And we have that state probably many, many times per day. And definitely many, many times per year in the moment of seeing beauty and forgetting who is looking. Forgetting there is anyone looking. Forgetting that... Listening to a beautiful music where we forget that there is me having a judgement about that music and all that mental noise. When the mind shuts up the natural state is all there is. The covering up with the old mental noise that is covering up interpreting what is, is actually the only thing that veils the natural state or reality. And the dream is emerging and experiencing and expressing itself without that clouds of concepts.

But the clouds of concepts are not a problem if they are recognized for what they are. It is just like... I actually do like to repeat that one. What Nisargadatta says about the dream. Recognize it for what it is. Recognize the thought as a thought. Recognize the feeling as a feeling. Don't take it to be a gospel. Don't take it to be absolute truth. Recognize the individual concept that you have about yourself as the concept. Oh yeah, that's the self coming up again. So what? Recognize. When this is recognized, it loses its sting. It's not harmful anymore. It's just part of the play. And it's a...

You wanted to say? It's very strong. It's the last thing to go is that core seeming solid core that can express the knot in the guts, the lump in the throat, an ache in the heart. All these things. And it's seemingly solid. We've reinforced it day in day out for years. And it's seemingly solid. When you look into it, anyone ever found it? It dissolves because it's nothing. It's solid. It's thought based. It's thought that's forming it. If it was physical, you'd feel the ache or the pain. It's different from physical. It's mental. Created by the mind. And thought wasn't that so? Yeah. So if that lump in the gut or anything comes up, it is just to be recognized for what it is.

That's the only thing that needs to be done. Because you don't want to start believing oh there's still a me. There is no me. It's just a lump. There is no me. I used to say years ago, go into it. Instead of moving away from it, go right into it. How bad can this really get? How bad can it really be? Try and make it worse. Put all the energy you can into it, and you'll start laughing at it because there's nothing to go into. And it dissolves. We'll see where you're looking at it from. If you think you are that core lump in the gut, where are you looking at it from?

You think you're looking at it from here somewhere else? Well go back and see where you're looking at that from. You'll find you're looking at that from here somewhere else. And you cannot pinpoint any static point anywhere that you can say this is where it all begins, where it's looking at it from. But the thing you're looking at is recognized as being false. It's not there, if it's mental. Yes, it's all really about recognition. Sometimes they use words, it's all about understanding. Sometimes they use words, this is all about love. So whatever word works with you, that's your word, that's your pointer. Understanding can't be conceptual.

Understand can't be conceptual. It is non-conceptual understanding. So it is the understanding that dawns on you when the mind is quiet. And when the mind is quiet, what's wrong? Can anyone have any problem without the thought, without the thinking? The word problem is a word, it's a thought, it's an idea. Without that word, nothing's a problem. Even if the situation is uncomfortable for the body, and uncomfortable is again the word. Like Bob was illustrating with the lump in the gut. I like to actually look at it often, well not that often, I wish it was more often when I get a phone call from someone with that lump in the gut or with the anxiety attack or something that it is in the midst of it.

I like to actually ask the person to look at it, obviously to describe it, to measure the size of it, to see how dense it is, to see how, you know, like, tell me as much as you possibly can about that sensation, that anxiety or that lump in the gut or anything. The way describing that very thing already creates the distance, and it's not really a distance, it increases awareness. Suddenly, like Bob says, put everything into it. Now, the person who is describing it is putting everything into it, and everything is attention. Attention is everything. So now that very obstacle or that very discomfort gets the light of attention.

And those things, believe me, they only grow in the darkness. Put the light on them and they won't be sustainable. They will dissolve in light, light of consciousness, in the light in which we see every light and everything. Everything comes back to its true nature, and true nature of everything is nothing. So she's looking at the lump in the gut. She's looking how solid it is. It's a beak like a baseball or it's dark and it's dense and it's like iron and it's this and it's this. And she's looking and she's looking, she's describing. And in a moment, oh yeah, well, yeah, well done. You're doing fantastic.

Okay. How is it now? Is it the same size or did it get bigger or smaller? Well, it's kind of getting a little bit more cloudy now. It's kind of dissolving a little bit. Oh, you know what? I don't really feel that anxious anymore. I don't know what happened. Well, I know what happened. The light of attention brought up to absolutely everything brings it back to its true nature. The body, true nature of the body is emptiness. True nature of everything. Every lamp, every god is emptiness. This whole manifestation is emptiness appearing as the form. So there's no need to be afraid and to run away from anything, but just shed the light of attention on it and it will show itself up for what it is, the nothing.

Everything is nothing. And that's the beauty of it because now you love it as the other and you're not afraid of it as the other. You can appreciate it because it's not going to last. In a minute or in a month or in ten thousand years it's going to be gone. One way or the other it is temporary, it's impermanent, it's transient. Everything in the manifestation has the beginning and the end. So it is there right now. Enjoy it. It is there to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be loved. The statement comes true. The false cannot stand up to investigation. If it was the truth you can investigate it and you can't get rid of it when you investigate the false that falls apart.

And funny enough it is working with everything. Like a lump in the gut or anxiety attack or something like this is mental. Of course it's going to dissolve. Nobody can cut the body and find anything solid out there. It is kept there with the energy of the soul. It is the energy of belief. It is made solid by our belief in that. But if you break the leg, you know, it's not going to be the same. Well yes it is. It is because the body is also, ask the science, they will tell you it's a cloud of probability. It's not even solid blocks of atoms in there.

It's a probability field. That is an energy that is built into the matter. And I did learn actually and tried it on myself when my hand was smashed after a motorbike accident. For I don't know, six or eight weeks. The bones were grated down and the hand was triple the size. And I was investigating whatever was showing up and appearing in the field of awareness without the concept about it. And I learned the beautiful dance of energy, probably 20 different types of vibrations which I refused to call pain. I refused to label it as pain. Okay. And I was giving them plain attention, just plain light of attention.

And they were dancing its own dance. And they were not resisted as they are. This is the way animals are dealing with physical pain. Animals are going into a resting place. They stop eating because they don't want to waste the energy for digestion. They keep the energy for healing. And they're just totally with it. The attention goes where it is called. When the pain is. Bob often says the pain is the sign of the body that something is wrong and attention is required. So the animal doesn't go to the doctor or to unless it does, if it has the owner or whatever. But let's say it's a wild animal in the nature.

It just gives the attention and doesn't give it. The attention is naturally attracted there. If the leg is wounded, the animal is lying there and you can see the attentions on the leg. You can see even the fly when it comes close to the leg. It is being guarded with the attention. That's a trick that I have when I'm cold. I grew up in New York and I figured this out as a kid. When you're really, really cold, you could do this tonight. Take off your jacket. Go outside. Sit in the cold. You'll notice the muscles tense up and you stiffen. And if you allow them to just relax.

And you can see the muscles. And you can see the muscles. Just loosen and become like limp spaghetti. Relax into the cold allowing it. You'll have awareness that it's cold. You'll know that it's cold. Yet the discomfort is not a fraction of what it was if you're going like this. Now it won't work if you have hypothermia. You probably should resist it if you have hypothermia. It works in the refrigerator section of Costco or the grocery store. Yeah. Cold rooms. Yeah, yeah. It's useful there. You can't be attentive. All these things are to recognize your inattention. From what's opposite. When the recognition of inattention must be from the point of attention.

So instead of trying to be attentive you're naturally there. Just the same as you can't be resistant. Recognize your resistance must be from the point of nonresistance. From the point of relaxation. This was the last thing I had to say. So this is the last thing I had to say. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. I wasn't very attentive to that one. You have me. Yeah. I think I was trying to be attentive when I beat myself up for a moment though. For not, for flaking on you today. We've tried to be attentive all our lives.

We're non-resistant. Say that again? I say we've also tried to be non-resistant. But the recognition of resistance must be from the point, you don't have to try to do those things. It functions in the pairs of opposites. So if you're seeing it from its opposite, and now it's recognised from its opposite, then it is naturally there. There's a brilliant mental image coming from NLP about the trying. That is beautifully describing how the trying is pure resistance and is so unsuccessful. Imagine that you are trying to open the door. You are trying to open the door. You are really trying to open the door. Just imagine that.

Are the doors open? Nope. They're closed. Trying is putting in force. Trying is acting against the natural flow. So the very act of trying is the very act of resistance. It's just good to know. It's just good to know. My Sudden Method teacher said, it's wanting approval for something you have absolutely no intention of doing. That's cool. Say it again. It's cool. My Sudden Method teachers have said, trying is wanting approval for something you have absolutely no intention of doing. Or Yoda says, try not. Do or do not. There is no try. And Tony Robbins would say, try to put your finger on your nose.

You're either doing it or you're not. There is no try. Yeah, good one. But you could say it retrospectively. Like, I tried to come, but something got in the way. Right? Yeah, but it's a story. Yeah, there you go. It's a story you can use, maybe use it. But in the present, you can never, well. What about when you try to prove it? Yeah, there you go. You could try it and go, yeah. But you actually did taste it. You didn't attempt to go. You didn't speed it up. Unless you do. Yeah, it's just handy to be aware of it. It's just handy to be aware of the habit patterns.

Like, it's not only handy, it's actually quite sweet. It's quite fascinating. This is because we grow up being conditioned to have very high standards towards ourselves. So we are always dissatisfied with ourselves for one or the other reason. I'm not smart enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not successful enough. Or I was, I had a talent to whatever, baile and singing and whatever. And I've only pursued one and the other one, the others were wasted, you know. And should have I done the other one? Should I have gone the other way? Married the other partner or whatever? This type of conditioning makes us always bitter.

Always living in a sense of regret. And always inferior. And always having that sense that I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. And craving for acknowledgement from the outside. Craving for the significance from other people. And that's ridiculous. And that's unnecessary. The moment you actually see the beauty, the brilliance of the mind, the brilliance of that movement of attention in a way that is completely impersonal, there is no regret anymore. There is no idea that there is my attention. That there is anything wrong with me anymore. Now I'm free. And I can say this body has these habits or these talents and has wasted other talents or whatever.

But that's none of my business. That doesn't hurt me. It doesn't say anything about my worth or my value. It is still the same as it was. It has the same capacities, the same skills. But it's not personal anymore. It doesn't hurt me anymore. If someone put a concept on this body, like I had it happen a couple of times for last year, that very close friends, they put a concept on this body and disappeared. I don't even know what the concept is. But that's what happens. Well, it's still completely impersonal. Because it is as it is. It isn't even my. Well, I call it my body.

But really, it isn't even my. Because if there is a me that possesses the body, I have to keep investigating. It belongs to life just as much as this friend who put a concept and moved on. It is all beautiful as it is. And it is all allowed as it is. And it is... And it doesn't really make me... Even if I had like 20 or 30 or 50 people putting a concept and moving on. Yeah, now you should look at yourself seriously. There must be something wrong with you. Yeah, that's the concept. Okay, this body has a set of patterns which make it incapable of forming a friendship or whatever.

Aha, alright, okay. Now, if life is moved to do something about it, good. If life is not moved to do something about it, good. Either way. I don't have to feel inferior. And I don't have to strive to become someone else or someone better. Someone deserving somebody else's recognition or approval. That's freedom. And who knows? Perhaps I'll form better friendships. Kind of more compatible. More kind of in tune. Like this one. That's the best friend I ever had. Ever, ever could dream about. There is no friendship that can compete with that. And there is no friendship that is needed on top of that. Everything that is needed is going to be supplied.

And if I have the idea that I need something different or something else, again, I have to go back to investigation. Because life is intelligent. If I don't have it, well, and I'm still alive, maybe I don't need it. If I don't have a car and I'm still being able to move around, maybe I don't need it. Maybe it's just a desire. What did he say? What did he say last time? You were saying something brilliant to us, was it? That make a desire... Drop the wanting and be the needing. Drop the wanting, be the needing. Yeah? I don't get that. Okay, what do you not get?

The needing. The wanting. Okay. What's the difference? Because that's desire and fear related to me. Desire, fear, pleasure, pain. Wanting is desire. Wanting is desire. Right. Coming from a me. Okay. And the me is the memory. And the needing is... The me is the past. Right, and needing is... The needing is desire too. Okay. Is needing more essential or something? No, it's just a name for the same thing. It's the word. You have to define the word first. Because the way I would define the word needing, it would be something that is already there. Like you need the air because you're breathing it. Yes. And if you think...

Because people use those two words kind of like a synonymous. And that's confusing. Like, you know, I need the car. Really? I don't have it. I'm still alive. So how do I need it if I don't have it and I'm still breathing? So people say it to actually give extra push to the desire. I want it. I desire it. I crave it. But I want it so much that even... Even the great word desire is not big enough. So I say I need it. But really, what the definition of the need, like if you think of psychology of the human needs and stuff like this, really it's not a desire.

Like the need for shelter or need for food or need for air to breathe, it's not a desire. It's something that you rely on, something that the body would not be sustained without it. Natural function. Yes. Yes. So now very often all these discussions revolve around arguing about the different definitions of the word because one person understands it this way and another this way. And they are both right, of course, or they are both wrong. Either way, if the vocabulary is not established, we are not at the same page. So now with that explanation of the need and want, Julia, do you still have the problem or is it...

Or is it now explained? I'm just thinking... I'm coming back to something I think my mom used to say. It's better to be wanted... I'm sorry, than it is... Oh, sorry. Yeah, than needed. I'm thinking of relationships, I guess. You know, like somebody needs somebody else. Oh, that's cool. That's a cool example. It's better to be wanted than needed. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. Maybe that's just what I thought of. And she used to also try to get me to differentiate between wanting and needing. It was like you said. The things that sustain the body are the needs and then everything else is a want.

Okay. Yeah. I guess what it brought up for me was the co-dependence. Yes. Dysfunctionality. I'm not talking about instinct. I'm talking about instinctive shelter and the things we need like air. I was talking about a need which is related to co-dependence. So that's what I meant by a need being similar to a desire. But yeah, it was all... Everything that was said was appropriate. Yeah, with that definition of the word because it's also appropriate and it's also a very good definition. Yeah. So the need could be defined as the desire that is completely out of the frame of logic. It's dysfunctional. Co-dependency is a mental illness.

It's an inappropriate need. There's again a differentiation. There's a need that is like the need to breathe which without the pure intelligence energy that doesn't exist. But there's the need which is inappropriate or dysfunctional and then there's the appropriate need, I guess. Yeah. And it's all semantics. But I always think of someone who's needy is totally in their head. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's a good description. Also, semantics. It's all semantics because even the definition of dysfunctionality or what is too much, how much is too much. This is all, you know, it's all just going far, far away from the non-duality. Yeah. We just, yeah, it's necessary.

This is what is. This is what life is presenting. This is because, you know, you don't want to go out with any confusion or thinking, siding with one or the other, who's right, who's wrong. If we agree on the vocabulary that the confusion comes from the way we understand words, then the confusion will be very, very easily understood. Easily cleared. And now if someone is needy because it's codependent or if someone has needs for breathing or not breathing, this is again all what life is presenting. So now if there is any, any confusion, because what Bob says, don't be the wanting, be the needing, like see how your needs are already supplied.

See how you can actually come out from the idea that life is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just fulfilling every need moment to moment. And confusion is cleared. But if you, if you, if you stay with the neediness as this functionality, then of course that pointer doesn't really, that wouldn't be striking home. It's it's not appropriate. See how my needs are already supplied. This is. It's all provide everything. Okay. I can see that. But I can also like think of people whose needs aren't supplied. Mm hmm. Okay. Are they dead? No, they're tied, tied, tied. Yeah. Yeah. They're on their way. They're dying because they don't have food.

Yeah. Right? So their needs aren't being supplied. Right? Otherwise, I mean, the body would be living, or at least they're not the body, but whatever. It's a tricky one because it raises the new thinking that that should be something different, that it should be different. And then their experience is the experience they're having, which is the experiencing their needing. It's how I perceive. And as you were saying, whatever we have is what we need because we have it. Yeah. Whatever there is, is the needing. Exactly. Moment to moment, what you have, this is what life wants to experience, and this is what life is presenting for experiencing.

If life wants children's, if they're starving, that's what it is experiencing. Doesn't mean that you should not help them. Help them. Apparently cats run away from needy people and run towards avoidant people. So it says cats are a blooming good pointer. If you're being needy. And if the cat's running away, you're being needy, so you might as well see it as a pointer to relax, and then you get to enjoy the cat. And then you enjoy, because the joy of life is there, because there's no want or need. Yeah. It's an interesting pointer. Yes. Yeah. Watch the nature, like Bob says. Everything else in nature.

Well, alright. You ever seen a guilty dog? No. You have? No. No. You ever seen a guilty dog? Guilty what? A guilty dog? Dog. Dog. A dog feeling guilty. Yeah. You have? Dog has been conditioned to show certain, reward for certain behaviours. Ah, okay. Yeah. And check. I think I've been chastised for other behaviours. Yes. So did you do that pee-pee on the floor? My dog used to hide under the floor. Yeah. I get this look on their face. I do. Yeah, looking very guilty. Mmm, have you been a naughty girl? I'd say it's okay, it's okay. Don't do it again. So you're saying it's a, it's a...

Condition behavior for the dog, the guilt. For people also. Yes. The society conditions certain behaviors so that it can grow and it can be... Well, society is life. Everything's life. The whole conditioning. I talked to Terry yesterday about something that woke me up the other night. And you started with it today about not being the body. And that's exactly what woke me up the other night. And it wasn't... It was... Yes, I've known that as a concept, that I'm not the body. But something that woke me up was, Okay, I'm not the concept of the body. I'm still the body, but I'm not the concept of the body that I think I am.

And that was the difference. It was like, I'm not what I think the body is. I'm still this, but it's not the limitation of what I think it is. And there was... It was almost like... It was almost like a microscope. But then I was just like cells. And then more than that, then like it just opened. And then it was just like dust. And then it was wind. And then I was like freaking out. But then I was freaking out. And then I was like, oh, where's my anchor? Where's my anchor? Where's my anchor? And then... It was the moment. It was like, don't think, just be.

And then I just... Relaxed. I relaxed. Yes. Yeah. Beautiful. I've had similar things like that. And it's... It's scary. It's taking it right to the end. And that's... And then all of a sudden, you're left with nothing. Because it was like, okay, I'm this. I'm the dissolving body. I'm the cells. I'm the dust. I'm the wind. And then I thought, okay, well, I still am all those things. I still am all those things. So I'm all those things. But then there was the... Then there was the... Just something at that point. Yeah. I love that thing where we're the elements, you know. We're all the elements.

Yeah. You know, we are. Yeah. I've used the term now, impersonal. Mm-hmm. Like everything impersonal. It is anyway. I don't want you to come over, pussy. Okay? Okay. Okay. So, Bobby, if I'm referring it back to a person, an identity, then that's the... That's where it gets lost. Yeah. If I'm trying to bring all of that back to an identity... You're relating to a concept. Yeah, I'm relating to a concept. But that's what I was freaking out. I was like, to Terry, I said, well, if I'm not... If I'm not the body, if I'm not the thoughts, if I'm not my fear, if I'm not this, then what the fuck am I?

I was like... Who wants to know? That's where you get... That's what you get... Eventually, that's what you get slammed back into. Yeah. And also, you had a fantastic answer for yourself. You said you freaked out. Yeah. And then you stopped thinking. Yeah. That's the safe heaven. That is always a safe port. But that just happened. I didn't... No. No. It was safe. Absolutely. You can never do it. It was like, well, hang on. I'm just getting lost in thoughts and fear and wanting a concept to make me... to soothe myself. And you recognize that you're getting lost in thoughts. Yeah. And they stopped. They stopped.

Yes. That's it. You're just a meth vomited out by time. A meth vomited out by time. Oh, I'm putting that on a T-shirt. Yeah. Years ago, when we used to go, to the church on the corner of Huddlestreet and Victoria Parade, when Bob's group was there, for a while there, we were thinking we might call it the I Give Up group. Oh. Oh. That's a good name. That's a great name. And that's a perfect name. It was very relaxing. The I Give Up group. Because things like you were saying happened to you the other night. Yeah. You know, were happening a lot then to us all, you know, because the investigation was really strong, wasn't it, Terry?

Yeah. And, oh, you'd just go, I give up, you know. And then we'd say, oh, good name for the group, I Give Up. I give up I. Yeah. Give up I. That's it, isn't it? Cool. Yeah. The great healer, and you expressed it, the greatest healer. Sorry. I'll probably get kicked for saying this, but anyway. The greatest healer, anything that's going on, it's the present moment. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's what heals. Because what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it? But attention towards the present moment. Attention to the present moment still implies something that's being attentive of the present moment. And I'm not talking about that.

No. Right. I'm not talking about that. But I understand what you're saying. That's why Bob's point is so fantastic, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it. Yeah. And it just happened for you, Tess. It just happened. Mm. You didn't even have to say that sentence. That's what I keep saying to you. Relax into this. It's okay. Relax into this. And it's seeping through. Because even when you went through, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm dust, I'm blah, blah, and then it was like that. What happened after that? Oh, it's okay. Relaxation. I'm here. Mm. It's okay. That's just, and I'm here.

Yeah, that was that. It was that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's the only thing you know. Yeah. I should show on that I'm here. Because all that stuff that goes on, can't actually exist in the absolute present moment. It can't occupy that space. It cannot occupy that space in the absolute, absolute present moment. It can't occupy that space. The screen is not touched. You know, if you've got all sorts of stuff going on. you've got all sorts of stuff going on, you're in stress, and it's all conceptual, and your guts are twisted, and it's not your throat, and all, you know. Man, just grab a hammer, put your thumb on a fucking brick, and just go bang, and smash your thumb, and you will immediately be absolutely slammed into the present moment.

All of that, I guarantee, whatever it was that was going on, will be gone. Oh, don't tell it to Bill. His daughter does it. Or me when I cut my finger last night. I still got the band-aid. And intuitively, you know that what I just said is actually true. Intuitively, you know that. Yes, I would be here again. I would be so slammed back into the present moment, and whatever. Dialogue, or stories, or pain, or suffering, psychological I'm talking about, that I thought was going on, disappears. Because they're just loops of habit. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Total loops. Related to the me. Total loops. Which is the biggest habit, the me.

Yeah. Identification with the me. Just keeps going around, around, around, and jumps here and jumps there, and even when you're in conflict. It's amazing, you know. If you're in conflict with another human being, Yeah. Mm-hmm. all that's going on is that there's a judgment internally here that's going on around the image that I have of that other person. It's got fucking nothing to do with the other person that I think I'm in conflict with. Nothing. So you've got two things going on. So there'd be a judgment going on around the image in here that I have about that person. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the conflict's not between me and that person.

The conflict's in here. Yeah. And we think it's, and then because we don't realize that, we project it onto the other person and go, it's your fucking fault. The other person looks at you like, what the fuck are you talking about? Oh my God. I have no idea. It's insanity. Yes. Yeah. But that's how it works. Yeah. And if you see that, like, see that. Mm-hmm. That's a, see that. Yeah, all conflict arises between me and the other. And the other doesn't even know about it. Yeah. And it's, hasn't even got anything to do with the other. You're the one who's the other. Nothing. I'm trying to figure out a new way.

What? Oops. The means of the memory, the means of the past or the future. So I can't live in the moment. But that's not just with a person. That can be with a thing. Yeah, a person's place or a thing. It can be with anything. You know? Yeah, that's right. I don't have conflict going on in here, because. This image that I've got about that thing is not fucking living up to the standard that I fucking think it should. Like Centrelink the musical. It's all in there. What? What? What's that? Well, you can have a, you can have a resentment about Centrelink. How Centrelink doesn't give you everything you need.

Yeah. You know, you get on the phone and someone says, hello, can I help you? Yeah. And you've had this whole big drama in your head about, they're not going to give me what I want. They're understaffed. Yeah. And they never do what I tell them. And someone goes, hi, can I help you? Yeah. You know? It's all the resentment you have about the institution. You know? And what is, is a whole different in the moment thing. You know? Bob has a fantastic joke about it. Can you tell us this joke about the, I'll shift it to the other side. The guy who came to borrow the jack.

You tell us. This is just so illustrating. It's illustrating perfectly what Jane was just saying. Yeah? Please. I don't know what I told him. This fellow is driving on a country road one night. He's miles from anywhere. And he suddenly realizes he's got a flat tire. So he stops the car and gets out and goes to the back, the boot to get the jack out to fix the tire. There's no jack there. Oh, shit. What am I going to do? And he looks across the plains and in the far distance there's a light. And he's like, oh, shit. What am I going to do? What am I going to do?

And the sun's shining bright. Oh, he says, that's Bill Brown. I remember him. I've known him for years. He's a good fellow. I'll walk across and borrow his jack, you know. He'll be right. So he starts walking. Oh, yes, Bill Brown. Remember when he did this and so happened and blah, blah, blah. And then he did this to me. And I had this round and blah, blah, blah. He gets to the door. And about 3 o'clock in the morning knocks on the door. Bill Brown appears. He says, stick your fucking jack up your ass. And I start looking at him. I have a situation today where you probably all got times in your life where you can stand back from what's going on for somebody else.

And you actually say, OK, they're not ready to take this on. They need some space. But in their own heads, there's so much tornado going on of all the other crap that they're saying and feeling and a bundle of stuff. But you just sitting back seeing peaceful. Yeah, they need some space. So I'll just leave that. I won't try to interject. It's all good. And then I say, oh, wow. What if it's just me? You know, like for yourself. to actually then you know just actually take away that tornado and just dip it out and imagine but here you're seeing someone that just needs a bit of space to that pattern moves on and so yeah and then that whole thing just becomes depersonalized right there and then yeah if you if you watch without interpreting without yourself and relating to yourself you really meet the other person and you know one mind you know every mind and this was sort of just a point that came up in its own way to one way that then all the turmoil just goes from this immediacy and everything's depersonalized elsewhere in here you know and the natural compassion comes up rather than anger disappointment and all that shit yeah because it wasn't like against the other people it was here it tends to be the stuff that's going on here is the generally not blaming the others but here it's the term wasn't here the inability to get on the world yeah yeah yeah in the spontaneity there's no fear spontaneity of the moment and it's amazing how often we think this is all about me you know these people are worried about me what they think about me and they're not thinking about me they're thinking about themselves that's so true that's the thing with vanity i think well i've known people anyway who my mother were used to when i was a kid she wouldn't go to the beach because she was afraid of being harpooned oh somebody on the beach would throw a spear in her or something because she was she thought she was too big she'd say she was afraid to go to the beach but you know i think that's yes i'll i'll take that chance i'll get harpooned it's all right my mom used to say vanity vanity all is vanity yeah i took it to be like everything is all one fabulous whatever works down one vanity vanity all is vanity so it's all the one thing just lasted it out to me rather than contribute i think there's a fair bit of turning to notice the things that blast out when you come to the garden not saying that that has been you're being effective i haven't had the expanding thing until the whole universe kind of experiences but um yeah they just take you to full stop yeah yeah just stop meaning making and then stop meaning making it's all based on duality all of it and and that beautiful story all the conf whatever conflict it is that's that's going on internally is based on two in here me and the other or yeah person place or thing we think it's me and the other but it's it's still going to be some kind of judgment around an image or an understanding i have in here about that thing yeah me and the other person place or thing that applies to everything that's how that functions and that's exactly it splits there's a there's a judger and then there's a conceptual understanding there's always two it's like two dialogues going on and that's how the mind works that's exactly how it works it's the old clunky machine so that's opposites so that's the duality and that's kind of what needs to be seen and how it operates then you start to see how it really operates and conclusions that it creates and then see it is the same thing how it really operates and then you start to see how it really operates and conclusions that it creates as well comes to based on how it operates it's so limited so dualistically in relation to a personal me or me and other it's really limited you take both those out of the equation it's magnificent yes i agree it's magnificent so you've stopped the judgment of yourself all those in yourself negative you've stopped all that that's the whole idea because that's duality when you're judging yourself as well totally yeah yeah yeah so there'd be a judge judging some conceptual idea you have about yourself yeah too yeah but i get what you're kind of asking me to inquire now is which is the self that's being judged so what is that self so it's like okay does it exist who is this self that i'm relating to you know what eventually what happens taz the questions will stop that's right who's this happening to what is this how does it work and so on so because in the end ultimately you're still going to be left with that self and in the end instead of going who is it what is it where is it you just know it's there and i'm well you you believe it's there and that's when you really just go looking for it you don't need to know what it is where it is how it operates what it thinks what it does it's fucking new and you can't know what it is yeah no but you exhaust that yeah exactly you've woken me up to that and that there's like okay so is this concept of i actually there and that's what's um starting to yeah but even that question is this concept of i actually it won't arise because the reality is what you'll be left with is it's there yeah all right not is it there is it real is it a thing does it have a place is there a center none of that stuff the reality is you'll exhaust all that and you'll still go i'm still here I've answered, I've looked at all the questions I've got all the answers I'm still here, how come I'm still here okay where am I and it's not a matter of is it real, is it not real you just go laser and just literally just go looking for it alone that's when it gets really simple like really really simple all I've got to do, look for that that's it, all the other stuff I don't care you've kind of done it another good one another good pointer is if you're in conflict you're in the past or the future and if you're in conflict you can only be in conflict if you're in the past or in the future there has to be a me and you know you've been pointed to the fact there is no me so when conflict arises it's always as Gerry was saying between me and the other or me and me or me and me or me and the other person, place or thing so all conflict arises so you go uh the important distinction there and it can be confusing it's not about me and that there it's about me and the idea there and the fear I have of that there that's in conflict and the response to that there yeah I think that's what I was trying to say that's what I'm kind of waking up to that's great I want to give you a book I've got a book that's got a chapter in it that really points that out so clearly great I'm gonna thank you she knows she knows she knows there's already a marker on it we've all experienced times we've all experienced times we've all experienced times when a person has come up to us you know and they've just gone whatever and dumped and you're kind of standing and going what the fuck was that all about you've no idea like no idea what's going on none and we've done that to others as well we absolutely have and they stand there and they they've got no idea what's going on it's cause it's got nothing to do with them nothing what's going on what's been all manufactured in here it's just the jewel it's just that's how the mind or the me works it's the only way it can function that way when it's a personalised when there's the idea of a personalised self it's the only way it can work it's gotta be about me and others it's gotta be the me thinks says does it's a bit liberating because you it's a bit liberating because you you start to not cast that stuff when you start to see this you at least start to not cast it on others you at least start so you can tend to generate at least a little bit of peace around you compared to the way we might ordinarily be acting out and reacting and responding and whatever you start to catch it and go whoa and do you attract more peaceful situations and people around you as a result too well who cares who cares good that was a great question and a great answer that was a great answer it's just look if you're not putting shit out there you're not gonna be upsetting people around you so it just gets a bit more peaceful around you but it may not because life circumstances might change and you may end up in a war zone who cares if you are free you're free from anything and everything it might be a byproduct or it might not but who cares really if there's nobody there you welcome everything and what I was referring to is just that at least that initial seeing of the dual stuff that happens in here so I'm still talking about a personalised identity ok and you start to kind of see that and there's less projection of it because you know hang on and there's just less conflict in your own you know you just things that ultimately yeah ultimately things are quiet but what you said before when all of that is completely seen through and that primary me is investigated and seen absolutely to be not there then your original question about the dualist and the suffering and the torment and stuff that drops away yeah it's like that story it completely your history your meanness your whole idea the whole concept that we have of ourself drops away completely being just in the moment and you're being lived and you just get moved and stuff comes out of your mouth spontaneously like it is now I've got no idea what's going to come out next and you don't care like it's all ok it's all ok nothing you can say could be embarrassing ever again no that's right no one to be embarrassed what did you say Bob nothing to relate to I think that's what Tony answered because this was brilliant what she says see if someone if you are at work and someone is having a go with you at work and instead of relating to yourself and getting angry and getting defensive and getting violent towards that person you actually come up from the space in which you see oh maybe she's tired oh maybe she needs some space or maybe she's really having a hard time at home oh my god and you don't even conceptualize those thoughts you're trying to describe the emotion of compassion where you actually if it is not about you you're meeting that person as yourself from the space now are you going to participate in a conflict probably not you see that person needs space you give it the space and you are loving yourself for giving that space and you are loving yourself for not taking it personally yes it is going to be peaceful not always some days you may get up with the left leg and the weather may be bad you may have period or whatever not me babe not me what was your last period Bob?

full stop that's period isn't it in American full stop means period yes so his last period is right now full stop menstruation menstruation menstruation full stop full stop we are over time now thank you very much everyone thank you