This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
Hello! Hello! Come on, there. Good evening, everyone. Would you like to say your name in case someone doesn't know anyone? Sure. Terry? Tony? Julia? Robin? Bob. Thank you. I didn't know you were. And you are not the thing, you are not the label, right? No. Who are you? Who are you really? Bob is a lie. Who am I? Yes. I am that pure intelligence energy that expresses us as this pattern or label. We call Bob. Who are you? I can tell you who am I not. How about that? Good. That'll be good. Yeah, okay. So, I can tell all of you who am I not or what am I not.
I'm not this. I'm not this or this or this or this. And ultimately I'm all of it also, but just for the heck of pointing. Neti neti is a functional sort of a way of investigating, which basically means, Because, well, I don't know why am I saying it, but I heard from someone that this sort of this association creates a sense of isolation and sense of a coldness that I am not the body, I don't care about the body, I don't feel warm towards the body, I'm not the mind, I don't care about the thinking. You know, it's kind of, feels kind of cold and also it feels like there is two of us.
The one that I'm not, the body, mind and all the rest, and the one that I am, the one who is doing the neti neti. So this is the limitation of the pointer. The neti neti pointer has different function. It is not to create sense of isolation, it is not to make you feel cold towards the appearance. This is all illusion, I don't care, I'm not that. It's not... the neti neti pointer is to bring you to the point when you realize that you are nothing tangible, nothing that can be grasped in any way. Yet you still feel the existence, you still feel that you are.
You may say you are nothing, because for the mind it is nothing, but it is absolutely not a void, it is not an empty nothingness. Because the feeling of aliveness, the joy of being is part of it, the knowing of being is part of it. So neti neti is to leave you with the sense that you are nothing perceivable or conceivable, like Nisargadatta said it. But it doesn't mean that you don't exist or you are nothing. Yet, for the mind, when investigation keeps you in the point when I am nothing, That's the point when you realize, oh my God, but everything else is also nothing.
It's like Bob is pointing, can anything come from nothing? It can't. So obviously it has to be nothing appearing as the other, so it has to be just an appearance. So if I am nothing and everything else is also nothing, then where is the separation? There is no separation. So the initial separation that comes from the idea of saying what I'm not And then I'm left with what I am. It's only initial. But in the process it may create sense of coldness or aloofness or isolation. And it happens because, yeah, this is funny, it happens because it kind of makes sense. Of course it makes sense, I can observe my body, so I'm not my body, because the body is an object in my consciousness or is something that I'm aware of.
I am not my mind or my thinking because I can be aware of my thinking. Ramana Maharshi was saying it the same way. Because I am aware of this and that, it can't be the me, it can't be the observer or the witness or the awareness. It has to be the other. It makes sense. So there we are. Welcome home in the mind. If something makes sense, if something is logical, if something is convincing, alright, I'll believe it. That's not the point. This whole thing is not about believing things that make sense. It's not about things that are logical, therefore I'll accept it. Therefore, yeah, it fits into what I've known already, it fits into my previous ideas.
All right, I agree with you. Yeah, I'm not the body-mind. Shit. And then, yeah, okay, I'm not the body-mind, but I'm still unhappy. Everything is still about me and life is a hell. That's not what it is meant to be. That's not where the investigation is supposed to leave us. So it's just good to know the limitations of the pointers. Because this comes in absence of any other ideas. It comes from the question that I got recently. Because on previous meeting I mentioned that there is a place in which you don't know whether you are the body or you are not the body or you are the mind or you are not the mind.
Not only you don't know, but you don't care, you don't ask the question. There is no questioner to actually ask the question about that. So this is the place where the mind is not. Because if the investigation is still going on okay I agree I not what I aware of I not the body line yeah that true There is still the commentary there is still someone who is agreeing or disagreeing with it there is still someone who is accepting it or allowing it or believing it This is not about beliefs. This is about the plain experiencing. So, the place in which there is no idea, there is no need for investigation.
The mind may be appearing and chattering or commenting or fitting or not fitting into the belief, but there is an awareness of it all. It is happening in the space like awareness or cognizing emptiness. It is being known by this cognizing emptiness. This place doesn't present the same trap because there isn't any need here for fitting anything into a logic or into our previous recognitions, insights or... Because, yeah, same thing happens with insights. I had an insight. Who is the I that had it? If there is an I that had an insight or the I that had the long experience or the... then the job is not done.
The investigation has to continue because the offering that nonduality brings is the life free from the I, free from any relating, life in which there is no abiding preference. And of course the preference may come up, otherwise there wouldn't be any functionality. Like daily functionality is based on certain preferences that were ingrained and programmed into the whole system. So we know which dress to buy or whatever. But abiding preferences and the preferences which bring about that sense of I don't want to lose it, I have to maintain it, I have to keep it. The resistance, which when something that I like shows up, I will do anything in my power to keep it.
Or when something I don't like shows up, I'll do anything in my power to push it away. The pushing away may happen, the keeping may happen, but if there is no relating to the I that is very involved and is preoccupied with, is not giving it an importance, then again this is natural functioning. And it's really, really good and it's been a wonderful way to verify it, the way Bob taught me about looking out in nature. If there is any doubt, any sort of concern what's natural functioning and what's unnecessary relating to the self and superimposing the conceptual image or entity and retranslating the world into the illusion.
Look out in nature, look at the animals. Do they choose? Seemingly so. But they are not relating to a choice maker, they are not taking responsibilities for the choices. Doesn't mean that if they choose wrongly, Like we see our cats jumping from one shelf to the other and they misjudge a distance. Doesn't happen very often, but it does. Makes us all laugh. That's evil. Yeah, they drop down. So there is a responsibility or there is a consequence of every seeming choice or every seeming decision that the animals are making or taking. So, normal functionality, we can see from that examples, from looking out at life, that everything that is happening in life is just functioning, is just normal living.
It's like the body is being lived, the thoughts are being secreted by the mind, just like the hormones are being secreted, or saliva, whatever, everything is functioning. Now, on top of it, there may be a commentary going on. And if that commentary is retranslating the natural happening into a story about me, into a story about me being a victim, or me succeeding, or me whatever, then, of course, the dream, the basic functioning, the beautiful seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, The story is being covered by the story that is superimposed on top of it. And if that's a pleasurable story, nice story, positive story, okay, no drama.
But if the habit of making stories there, it will vibrate into its opposite. Not today, okay, fine, tomorrow. Granted, if you have the habit of retranslating the pure existence into the story about me, it's not going to be a positive story 24-7 and the suffering will kick in. And if a lot of people live with little amount of suffering and they are fine, and that's how life wants it. But there is a possibility of waking up from that habit of superimposing a story about me On the reality, on the plain cognizing intelligent reality that is dancing in front of itself for fun, for joy of being, for love of being.
So that the invitation and there enough of evidence around the world that it is doable it is possible It is not to be done by the doer but it happening It happening through many many channels and there is no reason why it wouldn be happening through the body-minds that you brought in here. So usually what stands in the way is just a habit. The only difference is the habit, one habit that can be broken if it's recognized. It can't be broken by a conscious effort of the person, but when it's recognized repeatedly, just as the habit of storing, the energy that fuels that pattern is withdrawn into the recognition, The Translating, conceptualizing, conditioning.
It's like a murky glass, as if you are driving a vehicle and you're looking through the windscreen that is completely covered. So, when that covering is removed, the life is coming back to itself. It lives in the way, like in nature, as in nature. It welcomes everything. It welcomes rain and it welcomes drought. And it doesn't even do the welcoming. It's just, it's already being allowed since it shows up. But it just dances, it just expresses itself. It's just being alive. You want to add anything? No, not particularly, except as you started off with, it's not just a matter of mouthing the words, I'm not the body or the mind.
People do that constantly, say, okay, I'm not the body or I'm not the mind. It's a matter of seeing what's it all appear on. The body-mind, as they say, is appearance only. It's all that phenomenality, phenomenal, that which appears to be. What's the movie on the screen, on the screen-appearer? Appears on the screen now. What's all this phenomenality appearing on? That basic screen, the stillness and the silence that you are. Can you postulate anything that's not coming out of the silence or the stillness? Anything can stand on its own, as the Buddhists tell you. There's no... What is it? I'm forgetting this. My mind's gone to me now.
There's no static point anywhere and there's no self-nature to anything. So it's all constantly appearing and disappearing. And if I use this term nonduality and people have given it a label of something real now, but can there be any duality in nonduality? Can there be nonduality in duality? If it's all the one essence. That's what needs to be recognized, RAS. See what happens then. There you go. Yeah, okay. Is there anything you don't know about all that? Do you have any questions? The irony is, when you started the talk on neti-neti, it can get confusing because you're being told two things. I'm not this, I'm not that, I'm not the mind, I'm not the body, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
And in the next breath, you get told you're everything. So that neti-neti process, if you like, is purely for the conceptual, individual me. So that can be seen. And we go through that, you know, and I've shared this a lot of times, you know. It can take some time, or it did for me, to see I'm not the product of anything that's appearing in the mind. I'm none of that. Nettie, nettie, I'm not that. Not this, it is. Nettie, nettie is not this, not that. What if I was that? You must be that. Yes, sorry. Wrong terminology. We go through seeing. That process is designed for duality or designed for the limitation of the mind or of duality.
So we can understand dualistically, okay, you know, I can see Julia sitting over there and I know I'm not that because after all I'm sitting here. So dualistically we can sort of start to get a little bit of a hold on this Bob used to use the expression I haven heard you use it for a long time you know but you know if you get a thorn stuck in your hand how do you get the thorn out You pick another thorn and you dig it out and once you dug it out you throw them both away. So that niti-niti process is what's being used to try and dig the thorn out, and then ultimately that gets thrown out as well, the niti-niti process.
Yeah. Not this. After exploring as much as can possibly be explored with that process, the neti neti process, In my case, what I was primarily left with after I went through the process of kind of seeing, you know, or believing what I'm not, ultimately I just got left with myself. I knew all that, I got it, just like Kat was saying. I knew all that, I got it, but Jesus Christ, I still feel like I'm here and I'm stuck. So the last thing, the last thing for me to see was that core me. And going through that neti neti process, there's a core me that's saying and saying, yep, I can see I'm not that, and I'm not that, and I'm not this, and I'm not that, and so on.
And in the end, you kind of come to that realization, knowing that that's true, but I still feel like I'm here. I still feel like I'm stuck. I, that Kat was referring to, when we say things like, I thought I had it and then I lost it. Or, I've come to see everything that I'm not, and I don't know what else to do now, because I still feel like I'm here. It still feels like there's a me here. I Am. And you're just more interested in where is it? What is that? Where am I? Instead of going through the complicated process that we did prior to that, which is okay, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this.
And then observing that on a daily basis throughout the course of our day and watching thoughts coming and go, we kind of need to do that. But ultimately you get slammed back. You get slammed right back to here. And when that happens, it's really, really simple in that it's not complicated. There's just that point of self-inquiry. What is that? Who is that? What's saying I? What's saying, you know, now I don't know what to do? You know, what now? Who or what is saying that? I understand I'm not any of the thinking. Got all that. Even conceptually understood, conceptually understood, I'm not the body. I'm not over there.
I'm not that thing. I'm not that thing. And you just come back to that primary sense of a me-ness. And the reason it feels so real, I've said before, is because it attaches to and identifies with the aliveness, with the presence. That's why it feels real. Because it's taking ownership of this sense of presence, of this sense of awareness. It's my presence, it's my awareness, it's my seeing, it's my hearing. I'm experiencing everything through all the senses. Who the fuck is saying that? That's what needs to be looked at. Not all the other stuff. Not all the other stuff that just kind of rabbits on through our head through the course of the day.
Although, that still needs to be seen. Absolutely needs to be seen. So then you come to, then, then, when that is fully seen and it drops away, then the paradox is, which is the complete opposite to where we started, I am everything. Everything. Including a thought that may flow through, a feeling in the body, the body, the carpet, I am that, as Bob says, I am that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, everything. It's the complete opposite end to where we start. Ramanujan, Bhakti, a Fahd-Mihondi, Tantra, Bhurib, Nisargad, Veda, Veda, Ashtar, Veda, Veda, Bhagya. I am a member of the I Am Tthat, I Am, I Am, I Am, I Am.
If that's all he said, conceptually or dualistically, we wouldn't be able to grasp that. I can't grasp from a conceptual understanding that I'm everything and I'm nothing. You can't. You just can't. Swings in the pairs of polarity opposites. It's quite limited. But it gets used for a little while. It does get used for a little while. And then when you dug that thorn out with that other thorn, which is the mind digging the mind out, if you like, and then when that's seen, you pop that down. Then what are you left with? Oh, I'm still here. What's that? And what is this here-ness? And what is this presence?
And then the focus or the attention just becomes on that. And it's quite, it becomes quite laser-pointed. It's not fragmented. Awareness isn't fragmented all over the place. You've kind of got to go through, in my experience, go through all that fragmentation, say, okay, yep, I give up, yep, I can see that. Now what? Because I still feel like I'm here. And Bob would say, who still feels like you're here? Oh, um, well, no, I'm not that, I'm not that, I'm not that, I'm not that. So who still feels like I'm here? Buggered if I know. We'll go looking for it. That's when the real search...
Bob is going to say something. Yeah, that's where we say we're not the body, we're not the mind. But the me or the mind is taken to be a personal self. As Ramanu Maharshi says, you know, when you ask, look at what is it? When you investigate who am I or what am I, and you come to an I-self, and he says it comes down to finishing just as I, I. As soon as we say me or mine, of course the idea of an entity will be there because it's a personal self we've taken to believe, and that's not the question. We say I'm not the body, I'm not the mind, but when we come to the me or the mind, we think that's something that's just the same as the body-mind.
The body-mind idea is just a mental concept. You have this. It's just to say my house, my car. You know you're not the car. So my self, can you be that? So what's the I I that's left? It is the self. And that is the only self, I self. When he says I I, he doesn't add anything to it. That's all there is, is I self. And it's the one self appearing as everything. That's the last thing to go, is that conceptual image that seems something solid. And then anybody ever, when you look at it, ever found anything solid or substantial there? It feels like a knot, it feels like a grudge.
But when you investigate it, there's nothing there. Neti neti is one of the way to investigate that has been designed and offered to seekers. But the way Bob is offering it for... Oh, hello. Another way that Bob is often talking about is instead of looking what you are not, start from the fact that you are already that. Like start from it because everything is that. So you have to be that. There is no other way. If you doubt it, well, just trust it and then see what obscures it. And yet another way that, well, is all one, but they are just kind of slightly different angles, is the angle that I mentioned before, is understand that the mind cannot understand what it is, and the awareness cannot be aware of itself, because the awareness is the, the awareing cannot leave itself to evaluate itself.
So the question, who am I, will never ever find the answer. It is unanswerable. It is unverifiable. So the only thing that we can ever know is the fact that we are. But who we are, what we are, this can never ever be objectified. It can never be verified. It will remain mystery forever and ever. And if that one thing is understood properly, Then perhaps seeking for who am I can drop and now when the seeking drops, what is, that is what appears. But okay, I still feel I'm here, I still feel I am, cool, okay. So now I have an idea but I am not there yet, I should feel something different.
Well, how do I know that? If they say I am that already and they also say that there is absolute impossibility to figure out what I am or what enlightenment is, then if I believe that this is not it, how come? How do I know that? How do I know that this sense of contraction is not it? Or this sense of being here is not it? What am I verifying it with? Because this is the way to actually spot the obscuration. This is the way to spot the imagination, the belief. So now I can see, ah, all right, so I believe it should be different than it is right now.
The way I'm feeling right now, the way I'm experiencing right now is not it yet. It has to be different. How do I know it Well I believe it Translated by Ramirola Jankowska I am not there yet because I am still coming, whatever, doing, thinking, I am here or whatever. When that is being witnessed, that's already that analogy that I used with starving the fire. When that is being witnessed in a way that is being recognized as an object in consciousness, that belief, I am not there yet, I am not that yet. If that is being seen as a movement in the stillness, then already this energy of belief doesn't flood it anymore, it doesn't fuel it anymore, it doesn't sustain it.
And this habitual thinking can be broken. So there are different angles of looking at it, basically because everyone has slightly different filters or conditioning or whatever you want to call it. So there is whatever resonates or whatever makes sense is the way, it's like Bob often says, one pointer is enough because all those pointers are into the same one. So we don't need to understand every pointer or we don't need to sit and unpack 20 or 30 or 100, all that bag of pointers. One is enough because it's really just about digging the well in one place. If one pointer is resonating like, okay, I don't know what I am, I'll never find out.
And just sit with that I don't know because I don't know for the mind is shutting it down. The mind always knows something about something, always have something to say. Having a courage to say I don't know is already staying in that place where there is no mind. And now, if I don't know that it should be different, then it shouldn't. It's just what is, right here, right now. Or if that one doesn't really strike home, any other pointer, any other pointer, neti neti, okay, I'm not anything that I'm aware of. I am aware of objects in this room, I am aware of sounds, I am aware of sights, so I am not this, because they are content.
Fine, that's a good way too, okay, they are content. It creates seeming isolation between me and the content. It's just temporarily, it's just to strip off the illusions. It is the way to stick with the pointer. If I just stick with it long enough, it will leave me with nothing, And everything reveals its own nature as nothing. And obviously then everything kicks in naturally because... And if it doesn't, it means that it's still on a conceptual level. It is still understood because it's logical. So now the inner guru, the sadguru, the inner guide, the life that is breathing us, that is beating the heart, that very life will move us, will take us.
Like Bob is telling sometimes he doesn't like personal stories, but his story is an example of even with the strongest commitment to the place where he was, to the practice which he was doing, life has moved him out. So if any pointer put us in a place where we got stuck, okay, there is an aloofness and there is an isolation and neti neti, it doesn't take me anywhere. Life can move you away from it. You may stay with it or you may move on. And either way, you're not doing it. Life is doing it because there is no you, there is only life. Life does absolutely everything.
So trusting, relaxing into that life that is doing everything anyway, that is growing hair, that is doing the thinking, that is overthinking, That is selfing, that is creating the image and an ego. Everything, just relaxing into that natural force that is running the show and is creating that beautiful, magnificent manifestation. And just being aware of that movement is enough. Investigation, it depends. If the life moves you to investigate, if the life moves you to sit and meditate, if the Life moves you to go and sing or whatever. That's always life. The problem comes when the mind kicks in and takes credit. No, no, that's my decision, that's my path, that's my commitment.
But even that is a sweetness of the movement of life. Playing hide and seek. Playing that, okay, now I'll pretend I'm the other, I'm the ego, I'm the choice maker or doer. It's playing, it's playful, it's beautiful. Even that movement and that selfing and that energy of hiding is part of the display. And even that can be recognized. And that actually the only way because trying to fight with the selfing or with taking decisions responsibilities loyalties and all that stuff is also going to be just Thank you for watching The Again, relating it to the personal egoic zone. But as you say, it's all happening spontaneously and naturally.
And always just stepping back from any doership into the being-the-awareness, awareness of being. When I am the pure awareness, the pure screen, the pure emptiness in which everything is just dancing, just displaying itself. What can touch me? What can ever harm me? What can I say about the display? I can have judgment about it, but this judgment will be also part of the display. Just relaxing into that life, into the naturalness of life, brings me back to the point where I am the emptiness and I am dancing to myself as the form, every form, not just this body, but everybody. Start from that. Of course, yeah, because then it is the start point.
See, the only problem there is, is I and mine. Yes. And so that's the egoic self, is I. When you add any concept to it, it will be my or mine. But if you see I as the self, the one self, there is only that one self. It's self-knowing, self-seeing, self-shining, self-awareness, self-being. No relating. Yes, start from that because this is really where the game starts. Before that. I don't know, it's just... I don't know, it's not life, I mean, come on! Life in a suffering, life in bondage, is it really life? Can you really call it life? It's kind of like a prelude to life, it's kind of like...
Because we all have taste of it all the time, like everyone who considers themselves separate individual and who is striving to get reasonably well in life, reasonably successful, reasonably safe. And all that striving and all that fighting, all that fear of future and fear of being rejected and needing attention and needing approval, all that stuff is suffering. But it is not 24-7. We all have moments when there is nothing wrong. We all have moments when we have the taste of the natural state, Where everything is fine, everything is just as it is and there is no problem. And we have that state probably many, many times per day.
And definitely many, many times per year in the moment of seeing beauty and forgetting who is looking. Forgetting there is anyone looking. Forgetting that listening to a beautiful music where we forget that there is me having a judgement about that music and all that mental noise. When the mind shuts up, the natural state is all there is. The covering up with the all mental noise that is covering up interpreting what is, is actually the only thing that veils the natural state or reality from emerging and experiencing and expressing itself without that clouds of concepts. But the clouds of concepts are not a problem if they are recognized for what they are.
It's just like, I actually do like to repeat that one, What Nisargadatta says about the dream, recognize it for what it is. Recognize the thought as a thought. Recognize the feeling as a feeling. Don't take it to be a gospel. Don't take it to be absolute truth. Recognize the individual concept that you have about yourself as the concept. Oh yeah, that's the self coming up again. So what? Recognize. When this is recognized, it loses its sting. It's not harmful anymore. It's just part of the play. And it's a... You wanted to say? Yes, it's very strong. It's the last thing to go is that core, seeming solid core that can express as a knot in the guts, a lump in the throat, an ache in the heart, all these things.
And it's seemingly solid. We've reinforced it day in day out for years. And it's seemingly solid. When you look into it Anyone ever found it? It dissolves because it's nothing, it's solid. It's thought-based. It's thought that's forming it. If it was physical, you'd feel the ache or the pain. It's different from physical, it's mental. Created by the mind investigated and thought wasn that so So if that lump in the gut or anything comes up, it is just to be recognized for what it is. That's the only thing that needs to be done. Because you don't want to start believing, oh, there is still a me.
There is no me. It's just a lump. There is no me. I am a person who is not aware of the existence of the mind. We'll go back and see where you're looking at that from. You'll find you're looking at that from there somewhere else. And you cannot pinpoint any static point anywhere that you can say, this is where it all begins, where it's looking at it from. But the thing you're looking at is recognised as being false. It's not there if it's mental. What is the meaning of the word understanding? All the content sources mentioned earlier on The body is uncomfortable, and uncomfortable is again the word, like Bob was illustrating with the lump in the gut.
I like to actually look at it often, well not that often, I wish it was more often, when I get a phone call from someone with that lump in the gut, or with the anxiety attack, or something that is in the midst of it. I like to actually ask the person to look at it, obviously to describe it, to measure the size of it, to see how dense it is, to see how, you know, like, tell me as much as you possibly can about that sensation, that anxiety or that lump in the gut or anything. Describing that very thing already creates the distance. And it's not really a distance, it increases awareness.
Suddenly, like Bob says, put everything into it. Now, the person who is describing it is putting everything into it. And everything is attention. Attention is everything. So now that very obstacle or that very discomfort gets the light of attention. And those things, believe me, they only grow in the darkness. Put the light on them and they won't be sustainable. They will dissolve in light, light of consciousness, in the light in which we see every light and everything. Everything comes back to its true nature and true nature of everything is nothing. So she's looking at the lump in her gut, she's looking how solid it is, is it big like a baseball or is dark and is dense and is like iron and is this and is this and she's looking and she's looking, she's describing and in a moment, oh yeah, well, yeah, well done, you're doing fantastic.
Okay, how is it now? Is it the same size or did it get bigger or smaller? Well, it's kind of getting a little bit more cloudy now, it's kind of dissolving a little bit. You know what, I don't really feel that anxious anymore, I don't know what happened. Well, I know what happened. The light of attention brought up to absolutely everything brings it back to its true nature. The body, true nature of the body is emptiness. True nature of every lamp, every god is emptiness. This whole manifestation is emptiness appearing as the form. So there's no need to be afraid and to run away from anything, but just shed the light of attention on it and it will show itself up for what it is, the nothing.
Everything is nothing. And that's the beauty of it because now you love it as the other and you're not afraid of it as the other. You can appreciate it because it's not going to last. In a minute or in a month or in ten thousand years it's going to be gone. One way or the other it is temporary, it's impermanent, it's transient. Everything in the manifestation has the beginning and the end. So it is there right now. Enjoy it. It is there to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be loved. If the statement comes true then, the false cannot stand up to investigation. Yeah. If it was the truth, you can...
Nisargad, you can't get rid of it, but you investigate the false that falls upon. And funny enough, it is working with everything. Like lump in the gut or anxiety attack or something like this is mental. Of course it's going to dissolve. Nobody can cut the body and find anything solid out there. It is kept there with the energy of belief. It's made solid by our belief in that. I am not saying that. But if you break the leg, you know, it's not going to be the same. Well, yes it is. It is because the body is also, ask the science, they will tell you it's a cloud of probability.
It's not even solid blocks of atoms in there, it's a probability field. That is an energy that is built into the matter. And I did learn actually and tried it on myself when my hand was smashed after a motorbike accident. And for, I don't know, six or eight weeks. I was investigating whatever was showing up and appearing in the field of awareness without the concept about it. And I learned the beautiful dance of energy, probably 20 different types of vibrations which I refused to call pain. I refused to label it as pain. And I was giving them plain attention, just plain light of attention, and they were dancing its own dance, and they were not resisted as they are.
This is the way animals are dealing with physical pain. Animals are going into a resting place. They stop eating because they don't want to waste the energy for digestion. They keep the energy for healing. And they're just totally with it. The attention goes where it is called. When the pain is, Bob often says, the pain is the sign of the body that something is wrong and attention is required. So the animal doesn't go to the doctor unless it does, if it has an owner or whatever. But let's say it's a wild animal in the nature. It just gives the attention. It doesn't give it. The attention is naturally attracted there.
If the leg is wounded, the animal is lying there. And you can see the attentions on the leg because you can see when even the fly when it comes close to the leg it is being guarded with the attention. That's a trick that I have when I'm cold. I grew up in New York and I figured this out as a kid. When you're really, really cold, you could do this tonight. Take off your jacket, go outside, sit in the cold. The It works in the refrigerator section of Costco or the grocery store or cold rooms. Yeah, yeah, it's useful. That's the thing about attention. You can't be attentive.
All it needs to do is to recognize your inattention. From a total sense, the recognition of inattention must be from the point of attention. So instead of trying to be attentive, you're naturally there. Just as long as you can't be the resistance. Recognise this resistance must be from the point of non-resistance, from the point of relaxation. Wasn't very attentive to that one. I think I was trying to be attentive when I beat myself up for a moment though. I say we've also tried to be non-resistant. But the recognition of resistance must be from the point, you don't have to try to do those things. It functions in the pairs of opposites.
So if you're seeing it from its opposite and now it's recognized from its opposite, then it is naturally there. There's a brilliant mental image coming from NLP about the trying, that is beautifully describing how the trying is pure resistance and is so unsuccessful. Imagine that you are trying to open the door. You are really trying to open the door. Just imagine that. Are the door open? Nope. They closed. Trying is putting a force. Trying is acting against the natural flow. So the very act of trying is the very act of resistance. It's just good to know. It's just good to know. My Sudhana Method teachers said, it's wanting approval for something you have absolutely no intention of doing.
That's cool. Say it again. It's cool. My Sudhana Method teachers have said, trying is wanting approval for something you have absolutely no intention of doing. Or Yoda says, try not, do or do not, there is no try. And Tony Robbins would say, try to put your finger on your nose. You're either doing it or you're not. There is no try. Yeah good one But you could say it retrospectively Like I tried to come but something got in the way right Yeah but it a story Yeah there you go it a story you can use maybe use it but in the present you can never well What about when you try to prove it?
Yeah, there you go, you could try it and go, yeah, but you actually did taste it. You didn't attempt to go... You didn't speed it up. Unless you do. Yeah, it's just handy to be aware of the habit patterns. Like, it's not only handy, it's actually quite sweet, it's quite fascinating. This is because we grow up being conditioned to have very high standards towards ourselves, so we are always dissatisfied with ourselves for one or the other reason. I am not smart enough, I am not pretty enough, I am not successful enough. Or I had a talent to whatever, baile and singing and whatever, and I've only pursued one and the others were wasted, you know.
Should have I done the other one? Should I have gone the other way, married the other partner or whatever? This type of conditioning makes us always bitter, always living in a sense of regret and always inferior. I am inferior and always having that sense that I am not enough, I am not good enough. And craving for acknowledgement from the outside, craving for the significance from other people. And that's ridiculous and that's unnecessary. The moment you actually see the beauty, the brilliance of the mind, the brilliance of I am free. And I can say this body has these habits or these talents and has wasted other talents or whatever, but that's none of my business, that doesn't hurt me.
It doesn't say anything about my worth or my value. It is still the same as it was, it has the same capacities, the same skills, but it's not personal anymore. It doesn't hurt me anymore. If someone put a concept on this body, like I had it happen couple of times for last year that very close friends, they put a concept on this body and disappeared. I don't even know what the concept is, but that's what happens. Well, it's still completely impersonal because it is as it is. It isn't even my, well, I call it my body. But really, it isn't even mine, because if there is a me that possesses the body, I have to keep investigating.
It belongs to life just as much as this friend who put a concept and moved on. It is all beautiful as it is, and it is all allowed as it is. And it doesn't really make me... Even if I had like 20 or 30 or 50 people putting a concept and moving on, Yeah, now you should look at yourself seriously, you know, there must be something wrong with you. Yeah, that's the concept. Okay, this body has a set of pattern which make it incapable of forming a friendship or whatever. Aha, all right, okay. Now if life is moved to do something about it, good. If life is not moved to do something about it, good.
Either way, either way, I don't have to feel inferior and I don't have to strive to become someone else or someone better. Someone deserving somebody else's recognition or approval. That's freedom. And who knows, perhaps I'll form better friendships, kind of more compatible, more kind of in tune, like this one. That's the best friend I ever, ever could dream about. Like, there is no friendship that can compete with that. And there is no friendship that is needed on top of that. Everything that is needed is going to be supplied. And if I have the idea that I need something different or something else, again, I have to go back to investigation.
Because life is intelligent. If I don't have it, well, and I'm still alive, maybe I don't need it. If I don't have a car and I'm still being able to move around, maybe I don't need it. Maybe it's just a desire. What did you say last time? You were saying something brilliant to us, wasn't it? That make a desire... Drop the wanting and be the needing. Drop the wanting, be the needing. Yeah? I don't get that. Okay, what do you don't get? The needing, the wanting. Okay. What's the difference? Because that's desire and fear related to a me. Desire, fear, pleasure, pain. Wanting is desire, fear...
Wanting is desire, coming from a me. Okay. And the me is the memory. And the needing is... The me is the past. Right, and needing is... I am the one who is desire too. Is needing more essential or something? No, it's just a name. It's the word. You have to define the word first. Because the way I would define the word needing, it would be something that is already there. Like you need the air because you're breathing it. And if you think like because people use those two words kind of like a synonymous and that confusing Like you know I need the car Really I don have it I still alive So how do I need it if I don't have it and I'm still breathing?
So people say it to actually give extra push to the desire. I want it, I desire it, I crave it. But I wanted so much that even the great word desire is not big enough, so I say I need it. But really, what the definition of the need, like if you think of psychology, of the human needs and stuff like this, really it's not a desire. Like the need for shelter or need for food or need for air to breathe, it's not a desire. It's something that you rely on, something that the body would not be sustained without it. Natural function. Or is it now explained?
I'm just thinking, I'm coming back to something I think my mom used to say. It's better to be wanted, I'm sorry, than it is, sorry, yeah, than needed. I'm thinking of relationships, I guess. You know, like somebody needs somebody else. Oh, that's cool. That's a cool example. It's better to be wanted than needed. Yeah. Okay. But, I don't know, maybe that's just what I thought of and she used to also like try to get me to differentiate between wanting and needing. It was like you said, the things that sustain the body are the needs and then everything else is a want. Okay. Yeah. Um. Yeah, the, the.
I guess what it brought up for me, a need, I guess what it brought up for me was that I guess what it brought up for me was the co-dependence. Yes, dysfunctionality. I'm not talking about instinctive shelter and the things we need like air. I was talking about a need which is related to co-dependence. So that's what I meant by a need being similar to a desire. But yeah, it was all, everything that was said was appropriate. Yeah, with that definition of the word, because it's also appropriate and it's also very good definition. Yeah, it is, the need could be defined as the desire that is completely out of the frame of logic, is dysfunctional.
Like, codependency is a mental illness. It's an inappropriate need. There's again a differentiation. There's a need that is like the need to breathe, which without the pure intelligence energy that doesn't exist. But there's the need which is inappropriate or dysfunctional and then there's the appropriate need, I guess. And it's all semantics, but I always think of someone who's needy is totally in their head. Yeah, well, yeah, that's a good description. Also, semantics, it's all semantics because even the definition of dysfunctionality or what is too much, how much is too much, this is all, you know, it's all just going far, far away from the nonduality.
Yeah, we just, yeah, it's necessary, this is what is, this is what life is presenting. This is because you don't want to go out with any confusion or thinking, siding with one or the other, who's right, who's wrong. If we agree on the vocabulary that the confusion comes from the way we understand words, then the confusion will be very, very easily cleared. And now, if someone is needy because he's codependent, or if someone has needs for breathing or not breathing, this is again all what life is presenting. If there is any confusion, what Bob says, don't be the wanting, be the needing. See how your needs are already supplied.
See how you can actually come out from the idea that life is fulfilling every need moment to moment. Confusion is cleared. If you stay with the neediness as this functionality, then of course that pointer doesn't really, that wouldn't be striking home, it's not appropriate. See how my needs are already supplied. Yeah, because it's all provided, everything's happening as it should, you know? So... Okay, I can see that. But I can also like think of people whose needs aren't supplied. Uh-huh. Okay. Are they dead? They're on their way. Like, you know, they're dying because they don't have food. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, their needs aren't being supplied.
Right? Otherwise, I mean, the body would be living, or at least that they're not the body, but, you know, whatever. It's a tricky one because it raises the new thinking that that should be something different. That it should be different. Then their experience is the experience they're having, which is the experiencing they're needing. It's how I perceive Bob's pointer. As you were saying whatever we have is what we need because we have it Yeah Whatever there is is the needing Exactly. Moment to moment, what you have, this is what life wants to experience, and this is what life is presenting for experiencing. If life wants children starving, that's what it is experiencing.
Doesn't mean that you should not help them. Help them. Apparently cats run away from needy people and run towards avoidant people. So it says the cat's a blooming good pointer if you're being needy. If the cat's running away, you're being needy so your maras will see there's a pointer to relax and then you get to enjoy the cat and then you enjoy because the joy of life is there because there's no want or need. It's an interesting point. Yes. Yeah. Watch the nature, like Bob says. Everything else in nature. Well, alright. You ever seen a guilty dog? Yeah, I have. You have? You ever seen a guilty dog?
A guilty what? A guilty dog? Dog. Dog. A dog feeling guilty. Yeah. You have? Dog has been conditioned to show certain reward for certain behaviors. Ah. I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. I see. Behaviours. And chastise for other behaviours. Yes. So did you do that pee-pee on the floor? My dog used to hide under there. I get this look on their face. Yeah. Looking very guilty. Mmm, have you been a naughty girl? I'd say it's okay, it's okay, don't do it again. So you're saying it's a conditioned behavior for the dog, the guilty. Yes. For people also.
The society conditions certain behaviors so that it can grow and it can be... Well, society is life. Everything's life. The whole conditioning. I was talking to Terry yesterday about something that woke me up the other night. And you started with it today about not being the body. And that's exactly what woke me up the other night. And it wasn't... it was... Yes, I've known that as a concept, that I'm not the body. Something that woke me up was, okay, I'm not the concept of the body, I'm still the body, but I'm not the concept of the body that I think I am. And that was the difference.
It was like, I'm not what I think the body is. I'm still this, but it's not the limitation of what I think it is. And it was almost like a microscope. Then I was just like cells, and then more than that, then like it just opened, I was like, freaking out. But then I was freaking out and then I was like, oh, where's my anchor? Where's my anchor? Where's my anchor? And then it was the moment. It was like, don't think, just be. And then I just then I relaxed. Yes. Yeah. Beautiful. I've had similar things like that. It's scary. It's taking it right to the end.
And then all of a sudden you're left with nothing. Because it was like, okay, I'm this, I'm the dissolving body, I'm the cells, I'm the dust, I'm the wind. And then I thought, okay, well, I still am all those things. I still am all those things. So I'm all those things. But then there was the... then there was the just something at that point. I love that thing where we're the elements, you know, we're all the elements. Yeah, you know, we are. How do you use the term now? Impersonal. Like everything impersonal. It is anyway. I don't want you to come over, pussy. Okay? So, Bobby, if I'm referring it back to a person, an identity, then that's where it gets lost.
Yeah. If I'm trying to bring all of that back to an identity... You're relating to a concept. Yeah, I'm relating to a concept. But that's what I was freaking out. I was like, Terje said, well if I'm not the body, if I'm not the thoughts, if I'm not my fear, if I'm not this, then what the fuck am I? Who wants to know? That's where you get, that's what you get, eventually that's what you get slammed back into. And also you had a fantastic answer for yourself. You said you freaked out and then you stopped thinking. That's the safe heaven. That is always a safe port.
But that just happened. I didn't know. But it was safe. Absolutely. You can never do it. It was like, hang on, I'm just getting lost in thoughts and fear and wanting a concept to make me, to soothe myself. And you recognize that you're getting lost in thoughts. Video In the name of the Lord. Amen. I am a member of the group. I remember I'm like, give up I. Give up I. That's it isn't it? Cool, yeah. The great healer, and you expressed it, the greatest healer, I'll probably get kicked for saying this, but anyway. The greatest healer, anything that's going on is the present moment.
That's right. That's what heals. Attention to the present moment still implies something that's being attentive of the present moment. And I'm not talking about that. Not talking about that. But I understand what you're saying. That's why Bob's point is so fantastic, what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it. And it just happened for you Tess. It just happened. You didn't even have to say that sentence. This is the sentence. That's why I keep saying to you, relax into this. It's okay. Relax into this. And it's seeping through. Because even when you went through, I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm dust, I'm blah blah.
And then it was like that. What happened after that? It's okay, I'm here. It's okay. That's just, and I'm here. Yeah, that was that. It was that. That's the only thing you know for sure is that I'm here. Because all that stuff that goes on can't actually exist in the absolute present moment. It can't occupy that space. It cannot occupy that space in the absolute, absolute present moment. Nisargad tata. All you know, man, just grab a hammer, put your thumb on a fucking brick and just go BAM and smash your thumb and you will immediately be absolutely slammed into the present moment. All of that I guarantee, whatever it was that was going on, will be gone.
Oh, don't tell it to Bill. His daughter does it. Or me when I cut my finger last night. I still got the band-aid. the the the the the the A judgment internally here that's going on around the image that I have of that other person. It's got fucking nothing to do with the other person that I think I'm in conflict with. Nothing. So you've got two things going on. So there'd be a judgment going on around the image in here that I have about that person. So the conflict's not between me and that person, the conflict's in here. And we think it's... and then, because we don't realise that, we project it onto the other person and go, it's your fucking fault.
The other person looks at you like, what the fuck are you talking about? I have no idea. Yes, but that's how it works. And if you see that, like, see that. See that. All conflict arises between me and the other. And the other doesn't even know about it. And it hasn't even got anything to do with the other. Nothing. Nothing. What? The me is the memory, the me is the past or the future. So I can live in the moment But that not just with a person that can be with a thing an object it can be with anything You know I got a conflict going on in here because this image that I got about that thing is not fucking living up to the standard that I fucking think it should.
Like Centrelink the musical. It's all in there. You can have a resentment about Centrelink, how Centrelink doesn't give you everything you need. You get on the phone and someone says, hello can I help you? And you've had this whole big drama in your head about they're not going to give me what I want, they're understaffed, they never do what I tell them. And someone goes, hello can I help you? It's all the resentment you have about the institution. And what is, is a whole different in the moment thing. Bob has a fantastic joke about it. Can you tell us this joke about the... I'll shift it to the other side.
The guy who came to borrow the jug. You tell us this. It's just so illustrating, it's illustrating perfectly what Jane was just saying. Yeah? Please. I don't know how to tell this minute. This fella's driving on a country road one night, he's miles from anywhere, and he suddenly realises he's got a flat tyre. So he tops the car and gets out and goes to the back of the boot to get the jack out to fix the tyre. There's no jack there, oh shit, what am I going to do? And he looks across the plains and in the far distance there's a light in the night shining bright.
Oh, he says, that's Bill Brown, I remember him, I've known him for years, he's a good fella. I'll walk across and borrow his jack, you know, he'll be right. So he starts walking, oh yes, that's Bill Brown, remember when he did this and so and so happened and blah blah blah. And then he did this to me and we had this row and blah blah blah. I got to the door and at about 3 o'clock in the morning, knocked on the door, Mew Brown appears, he says, stick your fucking jack up your ass. Laughter I love it! I'm so intrigued! Yeah. Perfect! Perfect, yeah. Laughter God knows nothing about it!
Laughter I was noticing a situation today where you probably all got times in your life where you can stand back from what's going on for somebody else and you actually see, okay, they're not ready to take this on, they need some space. But in their own heads there's so much tornado going on of all the other crap that they're saying and feeling and this bundle of stuff. I am not sure if I am going to be able to translate this into English. That was playing out for me. Yeah, if you watch without interpreting, without yourself, and relating to yourself, you really meet the other person.
And you know one mind, you know every mind. And this was sort of just a pointer that came up in its own way to one way that then all the turmoil just goes from this immediacy. So everything is depersonalized elsewhere and here, you know. And the natural compassion comes up rather than anger, disappointment and all that shit. Fear and self-suffering and resentment. Because it wasn't like against the other people, here it tends to be the stuff that's going on here is the... generally not blaming the others, but here it's the turmoils in here, the inability to get on in the world. Yeah. In the spontaneity there's no fear.
Spontaneity of the moment. And it's amazing how often we think this is all about me, you know. These people are worried about me, what they think about me. And they're not thinking about me, they're thinking about themselves. Correct. That's so true. That's the thing with vanity, I think. I've known people anyway who... My mother used to, when I was a kid, she wouldn't go to the beach because she was afraid of being harpooned. By who? By who? Somebody on the beach would throw a spear at her or something because she thought she was too big, she'd say she was afraid to go to the beach.
But, you know, I think that's, yes, I'll take that chance. I'll get harpooned. It's alright. My mum used to say vanity, vanity, all is vanity. It's another way of saying it's all about me. Yeah. I took it to be like everything is all one. Fabulous. It makes me think whatever works darling. One. Everything's one. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity so it's all the one thing. I think there's a felt of turning to notice the things that blast out when we're together. Not saying that that has been you know bang bang effective Yeah like I haven had the expanding thing until the whole universe kind of experiences but they just take you to full stop You just stop meaning making.
You just go da da da da and then you stop meaning making. Whatever it is that's going on, it's all based on duality. All of it. And that that we were just talking about before, and Bob gave a beautiful story on it. All the confl... whatever conflict it is that's going on internally is based on two in here. Me and the other. Or... yeah. Person, place or thing. We think it's me and the other but it's still going to be some kind of judgement around an image or an understanding I have in here about that thing. Yeah, me and the other, first and place with him.
And that applies to everything. That's right. That's how that functions. That's exactly, it splits. There's a, there's a jaja, and there's a conceptual understanding. There's always two, like two dialogues going on. And that's how the mind works. That's exactly how it works. It's the old clunky machine, pairs of opposites. So that's the duality. That's kind of what needs to be seen and how it operates. Then you start to see how it really operates and conclusions that it comes to based on how it operates. It's so limited. So, dualistically, in relation to a personal me or me and other, it's really limited. You take both those out of the equation, it's fucking magnificent.
Yes, I agree. It's magnificent. It blows me away. It's amazing. So you've stopped all judgement of yourself, all those in self-talk, the negative, you've stopped all that? That's the whole idea. Because that's duality when you're judging yourself as well. Yes, totally. So there'd be a judge judging some conceptual idea you have about yourself too. I get what you're asking me to inquire now, which is the self that's being judged? So what is that self? So it's like, okay, does it exist? Who is this self that I'm relating to? You know what, eventually what happens Taz, the questions will stop. That's right. Who is this happening to?
What is this? How does it work? And so on and so forth. Because in the end, ultimately, you're still going to be left with that self. And in the end, instead of going, who is it, what is it, where is it, you just fucking know it's there. And I'm, well you believe it's there, and that's when you really just go looking for it. You don't need to know what it is, where it is, how it operates, what it thinks, what it does. It's fucking there. And you can't know what it is. No. But you exhaust that. Yeah, you've woken me up to that. That there's like, okay, so is this concept of I actually there?
And that's what's starting to... Yeah, but even that question, is this concept of I actually, it won't arise. Because the reality is, what you'll be left with is, it's there. Yeah. Alright, where are you? Not, is it there? Is it real? Is it a thing? Does it have a place? Is there a centre? None of that stuff. The reality is you'll exhaust all that and you'll still go, I'm still here. I've answered, I've looked at all the questions. I got all the answers. I'm still here. How come I'm still here? Who? Okay. Where am I? And it's not a matter of is it real, is it not real?
You just go laser and just literally just go looking for it alone. That's when it gets really simple. Like really, really simple. All I gotta do, look for that. That's it. All the other stuff I don't care. You've kind of done it. Another good one, another good pointer is if you're in conflict, you're in the past or the future. And if you're in conflict, and you can only be in conflict if you're in the past or in the future, there has to be a me. And you know you've been pointed to the fact there is no me. So when conflict arises, it's always, as Jerry was saying, between me and the other.
Or me and me. I Am, I Am, I Am, I Am. I think that's what I was trying to say, that that's what I'm kind of waking up to. Yeah, that's great. I want to give you a book. I got a book that got a chapter in it that really points that out so clearly Great I going to Thank you She knows She knows There's already a marker on us. We've all experienced times... Have that before we get out. We've all experienced times when a person has come up to us, you know, and they've just gone, www.nisargad.com The So the So you can tend to generate at least a little bit of peace around you, compared to the way we might ordinarily be acting out and reacting and responding and whatever.
You start to catch it and go, whoa. And do you attract more peaceful situations and people around you as a result too? Who cares? Good. I thought that would be a by-product. That was a great question. And a great answer. That would be a by-product. That was a great answer. That's what he meant to do. It's just, look, if you're not putting shit out there, you're not going to be upsetting people around you. So it just gets a bit more peaceful around you. But it may not, because life circumstances may change and you may end up in a war zone. Who cares? If you are free, you're free from anything and everything.
It might be a byproduct or it might not, but who cares, really? Really, if there is nobody there, you welcome everything. And what I was referring to is just that, at least that initial seeing of the dual stuff that happens in here. So I'm still talking about a personalised identity. Yeah, yeah. Okay? Oh, okay. And you start to kind of see that. There's less projection of it. The The original question about the dualist and the suffering and the torment and stuff that drops away. Yeah, it's like that story of the queen. It completely... your history, your meanness. Your history. Well, it does. Your whole idea, the whole concept that we have of ourself drops away completely.
Then just in the moment and you're being lived and you just get moved and stuff comes out of your mouth spontaneously like it is now. I don't know what's going to come out next. And you don't care. It's all okay. Nothing you can say could be embarrassing ever again. No, that's right. No one should be embarrassed. What did you say, Bob? I said nothing to relate to. Nothing to relate to. Also, yes, I wanted to highlight what Toni answered because this was brilliant, what she says. See, if you are at work and someone is having a go with you at work, And instead of relating to yourself and getting angry and getting defensive and getting violent towards that person, you actually come up from the space in which you see, oh, maybe she's tired, oh, maybe she needs some space, or maybe she's really having a hard time at home, oh my God, and you don't even conceptualize those thoughts.
But I'm trying to describe the emotion of compassion where you actually, if it is not about you, You're meeting that person as yourself from the space. Now, are you going to participate in a conflict? Probably not. You see that person needs space, you give it the space, and you are loving yourself for giving that space, and you're loving yourself for not taking it personally. Yes, it is going to be peaceful. Not always. Some days you may get up with the left leg and the weather may be bad, and you may have period or whatever. I am not May, babe, not May. What was your last period, Bob?
Full stop, that's period. Isn't it? In American, full stop means period, doesn't it? Yes, so his last period is right now. Full stop. I think it's menstruation. Menstruation. Menstruation. Thank you, Tony. We're over time now, so thank you very much everyone.