Sailor Bob's non duality - A bit of everything - 9 Sept 2018

Okay, so yeah, we all kind of a strong people familiar with the concept so I Don't I don't really know what else to say without repeating myself again So perhaps we just we just go through the repetition So, you know the body you know the mind and it doubts about that There might be doubts because that was this This other day Terry was asking Julia answer only questions of which you are absolutely 100 percent certain 100 percent of the time and if anyone asked me are you the body I? Would say I don't know because I even if I say I'm not the body now I've created duality me and the body there is a duality if there is only one I'm everything or nothing and an end nothing so that body is included So can I be absolutely certain I'm not the body no can I be certain?

I'm I am The body no can I be certain I'm the mind or I'm not the mind no and It ends up if we really speak from that standpoint Which is a beautiful way to speak like I really like the way Terry says just be honest Just be absolutely honest only say when you are hundred percent certain when you're ready to die for it when it's so certain so If you are really if you are about to be killed if you say something that's not true You think twice What are you? Are you the space? Are you sure? Are you the nothingness? Are you sure?

Are you the absolute or the totality or that really? What if that you know your head is gonna be chopped if if the answer is wrong and you are allowed to say I don't know Just keep saying I don't know because I don't know is the answer which shuts down the mind mind hates not knowing knowing mind is all about oh yeah I know I know the answer I know what I am or what I'm not so that I don't know is this is funny I had this you know the Ramana Maharshi meditation is it's not he's really it's been around for thousand years but but that's how it is known it's adopted by many of the Zen sanghas and I happen to sit with few of them and they would often sit with the question Who am I but the sangha that I was sitting with the Korean Kwan um sangha they give you the answer the answer don't sit with Who am I just focus on the answer I don't know I don't know I don't know Who am I so the question is the the questioner is the problem but when the answer is said to the mind I don't know it's almost the same as the mind is saying shut up like you know it's nothing I don't know that if the mind admits that what is it gonna seek for that the answer is given the question is resolved the answer is I don't know and now if the mind doesn't interfere, if there is no trying to get the answer or find the answer if there's no movement of the mind what's left is the stillness of being and this is the one thing that we can say with absolute certainty that's the one thing that you can you can right you can be ready to die for it and I'm sure you can confirm it you exist If someone would ask you, do you exist?

Or are you sure that you are? Are you sure that you exist? Are you certain about your own existence? Who's going to say no? Like, you know, even to say no, you do have to exist. So this is the one thing and the only thing that we can have absolute certainty about. Everything else is a story. Beautiful, romantic, non-duality stories. I'm love or I'm God or I'm everything. Yeah, or ridiculous suffering stories. I'm a person and from there. They're all stories. Everything that comes after I am is a story. Actually, even I am can be boiled down to a story because there is the I who exists.

There isn't. There is no existence if there is no I. Or there is no I without existing. So I am is really one. It seems like it's... It's two words, but it's one because one without the other makes no sense. And again, it is like Bob says, it is only a translation because the mind is a translating device. So the sense of presence is translated by the mind as a thought, as the I am thought. So if we drop the thought, the concept I am, there is still a presence. Without translating, the presence is still there. Even if I say I am not, the presence is there.

So that's the one thing that we don't really need to be taught. Nobody has to give us the answer. Nobody has to teach us. We don't have to discover that. Everybody knows that we exist, that we are. I am. And that's the place to start. That's the place to start and that's the place to end because there is really nothing else. It's just that sense of existence. Everything else is the appearance. It's the Maya, the illusion. The reality is the sense of existence, the sense of presence. Everything else is a dream. And yeah, we welcome to admire the dream, to love the dream, to hate the dream, to whatever.

This is part of the dream. The response to a dream is a layer over the dream. Like, yeah, that was you were showing me about Krishnamurti, looking at the flower and then having a judgment about the flower. Right? Looking at the flower is pure consciousness. And the judgment, I like the flower, I don't, that there is me and the flower, everything else on top of it is a story, is the added story. So dreaming a flower is one thing. And dreaming the meaning made of a flower, where the flower belongs, what is the label or the name or the color or the relation to me.

They're all veils, layers over the layers of a dream. So the beauty of non-duality is it can wake you up to the dream. From all the accumulated veils of thinking, veils of thought, interpreting, commenting, into the plain dream. The plain dream is what is happening in the space of seeing, in my gaze, what is happening in the space of hearing, in the whole. The space, the capacity of hearing. What is happening, the sensations in the body, the temperature, the balance, the taste, the smell. That's the dream, the basic dream without any interpretation put over it. Like, oh yeah, okay, that's the sensation in the body.

Yeah, but the body is my body or I am the body, the body is too thin or too fat or too tall or too short, whatever. That's what's unnecessary. The invitation on the body. The invitation on the body. The invitation on the body. The invitation on this level. I hate to say level, but really this is like multi-layered reality. Like to wake up to the basics of the present. In the present, there is no story because the story requires time. So in the present, as we are, there is an experiencing going on. There's experiencing going on. Not the experiences showing up to me, but just pure experiencing.

And it is experience there is not disconnected from the experience. It is one. There wouldn't be an experience without the experiencer and without the process of experiencing. So obviously that has to be, it is one that is being divided artificially into the world versus the person. That division is purely conceptual. If we leave it aside, just take it off our mind, that division is completely redundant. It doesn't need to exist. So in the current experience, just as we sit here, experience, the experiencing is going on. The body is experiencing the taste, the touch, the smell, the sights, the sounds. And I can't even say the body is experiencing it.

Because the body is already the assumption that there is a division. That there is a device here that is experiencing or interacting with the outer environment. But the body is not separated from outer environment. Like how is the sound of the passing car, how is it separated from my awareness of it? From the fact, from my hearing of it? In that hearing, the ear and the sound is already included. There can't be any barrier drawn between the two. I can't say where one ends and the other starts. It is one. Plus the body, like the way Bob is pointing, the body is completely relying on the elements that it is made of.

The body is relying on air, fire, it is water, it is breathing, it is having a temperature, it is solid, there is a matter in it. So it isn't really separated from the elements from which everything else is made. And the sensations are not separated either. Do you want to add something? Going, going. I'll add something later, probably. You're going well, that's good. Yes, so the pure experiencing is happening moment to moment. And if there is no distraction going on, if there is no distraction which will usually be a story about something that is not happening, so what is not happening? Oh, my grandmother passed away.

That's not happening here now. That is happening in my head. She's not there. She's not passing. She's not passed. This is not happening. Every story that we say to ourselves will be having a context in the time. Like, you know, the process, oh, it's getting worse. I'm getting, you know, any story about the future or the past or the process or the future. Or the context is not what is happening in the immediacy. This is good to distinguish because immediacy is something that is right here right now. Like the sounds that I'm hearing now only, not the sounds that I remember from Terry playing guitar yesterday beautifully, not the sounds that I'm going to hear on the concert next week.

No, this is what is happening right now. Same with the sights. If I'm thinking about my children and they are not here, then already I'm in the imagination, leaving the immediacy conceptually and leaving the gut feeling of being and the loving to be, which is a hard feeling of joy and going to the head and imagining the reality instead of experiencing this one fully. And this one is never, ever going to come back in that form. So if I'm distracting myself and going to the mind and entertaining myself with what isn't, I'm just wasting that precious moment of aliveness which will never come back. It's only now.

It can only be celebrated now. And the way to celebrate it is to embrace it with all the channels available, to hear it fully, to feel it, to taste it, to touch it, to smell it, to experience every movement, every muscle, to just be with it, to just be it. But it's not going to last for long because we are conditioned to distract ourselves. And conditioning is tough because the way the mind has been designed, it is offering us the thrill that is seemingly much more juicy than the bluntness, so-called almost a bluntness of this moment. Like if there is no bumping or loud music or a very loud music, or a very intensely sugary food going on, then this moment is just boring.

It feels like, yeah, what a big deal. Give me something. Give me something to chew on. Let's put a horror movie or whatever. Go for a violent, what was it, the fashion of the violent sex or something, Sadomach or whatever somebody was telling us is a fashion. Because people are so desensitized from the sensitivity to that subtlety of being is lost because of the conditioning, because everything is moving much, much faster. Everything that we want, fast music, fast cars, fast changing colors, loud, everything has to be rough, really. And rebuilding or uncovering that sensitivity, sensitivity to the feeling, to the plain love of being, plain joy of natural state, is undoable for the mind.

Mind is being tuned to chew all the time, to be distracted constantly, to have a food, whatever, be it a drama, but just not nothing. Just beat me up, but don't ignore me. So this is something that needs to be recognized, because the recognition is the only cure. There is nothing that can be done, particularly by the mind. Like what can mind do about the mind? Nothing. It can only fool itself that it can do, that it can take decisions, choices or be a doer. It can't. But the recognition of the mind obviously comes from beyond the mind, because the mind can't recognize itself because it needs distance to itself, to be even aware of itself.

So there is something beyond the thought that is aware of thought. And this is the something that is not a thing, but this is what we are referring to. This is the way out of the trap of the mind, because when the mind becomes a content, when the thought stream becomes a content, when the mental images become a content, the identification with them breaks down. And the distance is created. So I am not the content of my thinking anymore. Now I am the awareness of it. And the same with us. I am not separated from the sounds I hear from afar, because everything is one.

I am not separated from the content either, because I am the awareness and the content. And in that, in this identifying from just one object in consciousness, I relax into being everything. The awareness, the objects, the stories, everything. And then, being that everything, the stream of attention dissolves into, like, if 100% of my attention is in my conceptual image, I am a person, I am Katerina, whatever, there is nothing left for the awareness of it. I am fully identified. There is nothing left. I am completely unconscious. I identify with the dream character, just like the actor in the movie. Now, if this identification breaks or is recognised, like now, there comes the idea, oh my God, there is an identification with the image.

So now, part of the attention that was involved in the image sinks out of it, and is becoming a space in which the identification is being recognised. So, obviously, there is no 100% identification anymore, if I say, oh my God, this is an identification. So, I am already here looking at it. I am not it anymore. That's how it happens. Every moment, the mind, the thought, is recognised as a thought. Obviously, I am the awareness of it. I am not identified with it anymore. So, I am beyond the thought. I am beyond the mind. And I am awake, one could say. But who is awake?

There is a wakefulness in which the dreaming happens. There is a wakefulness in which the imaging, imagining my grandmother passing away, or the concert next week. This is imagining, dreaming, happening in the awareness, in the wakefulness that I am. So, the more this is recognised, and again, a person can't do it. Now people will resolve, okay, just like we were talking with Julia yesterday about our first impressions of teachings of Eckhart Tolle, which is absolutely wonderful, there is nothing wrong with that. But at the stage where we were completely immature, the way we heard it, oh my gosh, you have to work so hard now, you have to be alert all the time, that's so exhausting.

Who is going to be able to keep that level of alertness? That's terrible, that's a terror. That's not what he said. That's not what he's saying. Totally not. But that's how we heard it, being completely immature and unripe as a fruit. So it is not to say to the mind that now you have to be alert and you have to recognise every time you think, because that would be ridiculous. First of all, mind can't recognise it. The recognition of thought cannot be in thought. The recognition happens from beyond the mind. Obviously, mind has nothing to do with this. The one thing that mind seemingly can do is to just drop off, surrender.

But how can mind surrender? How can mind make itself disappear? It can't. How the ego can kill the ego? Like Bob is quoting Bankey sometimes, it's like washing away blood with blood. It's not happening. It's not going to happen. So the ego can't kill the ego because the one who is left is still the ego. So the mind, so the mind cannot recognise the stream of thinking. The recognition of stream of thinking is already the cognising emptiness, is already the consciousness waking up to itself. So if the recognition happens, the recognition is a gift. This is an act of, one could say for the person, one could say it's an act of grace.

But obviously, the grace is all there is and a person is a fiction. So it's not really a grace. It's a gift. It's a natural state. So the natural state shines through when the person drops off and the person doesn't do it. So it's absolutely nothing to be done. But this is important to highlight because at least in my case, the story was when the recognition started happening, when the insights started to flow and that was for a few years, the mind would come and claim the ownership of it. I've recognised. Oh, I had a glimpse. Oh, I had an understanding. And the next thing mind would do, it would say, why is it happening so rarely?

Why am I not doing any better? I should be having these glimpses now ten times more often. Why am I not progressing? I'm worthless. I'm absolutely not deserving to die. I'm a piece of shit. So this is the tendency of the mind. It has been conditioned. It has been conditioned to seek, to get things. It's a beautiful machinery. It's a fantastic equipment. Gosh, it's brilliant. It's pure intelligence. It's a pure brilliance. It interprets the world. Without the mind, we wouldn't be able to make anything of the seeing. We wouldn't recognise people. We wouldn't recognise things. Without the mind, the computer, the computer's mechanism, we wouldn't be able to learn to speak.

We wouldn't have language. We wouldn't have civilisation. We wouldn't have knowledge. We wouldn't have art. It's absolute brilliance. The trap only comes that with the whole world, the whole beautiful dream, the trick goes that the identification, which is the energy of belief, goes into it and says, now I am the other. The totality now dreams that I'm not totality anymore. I'm the other. I'm the body-mind. So this is the joke. This is the joke. And it has to happen this way. Because that's the will of the Absolute. Experience itself as the other. It's the vacation from the eternity. You are the eternity. You are timeless, spaceless.

Now you are having a vacation. You want some? That's all right. So that's a... You can have a sip of mine before he comes. It's a vitamin C in it. Thanks. I'll leave them when they come. Yes, so the magnificence of the whole appearance, because I remember I only asked Bob one question because I was so obsessively shy. I was so absolutely incapable of finding a courage to be visible enough to even ask questions. That for three years of the meetings, I asked him only once, why? Why would the Absolute, wonderful, loving totality want to experience itself as fear? This is so off. This is so wrong.

And we were laughing at that with Bob a couple of days ago. That everyone has this question in one or the other form. Why ego? Why suffering? Why, why, why? Well, I don't have that question anymore because it's so ridiculous. If there wasn't a suffering, if there wasn't a fear, if there wasn't a night, there wouldn't be a day. If there wasn't a pain, there wouldn't be a pleasure. If there wasn't a pair of opposites, if there wasn't the one end of a stick, there wouldn't be the other. So if not for fear, if not for night, if not for suffering, you're still timeless, spaceless, eternal totality or nothingness.

The idea of experiencing yourself as the other, just to wake up to yourself again, to experience yourself as the totality. It comes from, even that is a duality itself. Duality is counteracting the singularity. How can singularity know itself if not through forgetting itself and waking up? So this is the beauty of the whole dream is to wake up. But the beauty of waking up is to fall asleep and being able to wake up. So if not for the suffering, if not for fear, if not for separation, which is only a dream, it's impossible. In the totality, in the oneness, separation is absolutely impossible. It is not happening.

It only seems to be. It is a dream. It only seems to be happening. Just like a person climbing mountains in the dream is not climbing mountains, is sleeping in bed. And it's not seeing the birds over, the eyes are closed. It's not happening. It's the dream. But for the dreaming figure, it's real. So it is to be loved, it is to be appreciated, it is to be enjoyed, and it is to be overcome. Not for the individual, but for the consciousness. This is the divine play. The Hindu called that lila, divine play. Or Maya. Maya is like a goddess. Or Shiva-Shakti thing. Shiva is pure stillness.

And Shakti is a movement in that stillness. And that very movement is a dance. And in that dance, everything appears. That's a description. But it can be experienced. It actually is being experienced. It is being experienced as that basic sense of being, as that sense of presence, that one very, very one and only thing, you can say you're absolutely certain, even if your head is going to be chopped off if you're wrong. This is something that you can't deny. And this is something, this is the only thing worthy of dying for. And now this is the only thing for which the individual can die for.

And it actually dies into it. Because the individual, because the individual is a dream. As a dream it has the beginning. So as a dream it will have an end. If not now, if you not embrace it right now, well you're not going to avoid it. The body-mind is going to die and ego is going to die with it. But why not now? Why not now? Because the sense of being, the sense of presence is here now, all the time. It never goes away. It's just the destruction of the mind. It's just going to the story. Makes it seemingly obscure. It's just the clouds of the noise that makes it seemingly obscure.

And also is the attraction of that noise. Because if it wasn't attractive, the sense of being would be all there is. But acknowledging that attraction and enjoying the dream is also part of it. I mean, it's nothing wrong with watching a good movie. We're watching good movies occasionally. Bad ones too. You can never say. Who's there to judge? Yes, so it all happens in the dream and it's all valid in the dream. And it's all fascinating and it's all beautiful and it's all beloved. But when it is known for what it is, it is such a different way of enjoying it. When Nisargadatta says, the only thing you need to do is recognize the dream as a dream.

He says, the dream is not your problem. Your problem is that you like or love one part and not the other. The order of value in the dream. If it was known to be a dream, what a big deal. If you watch a fantastic movie and there is a plastic bag flowing, there is a dirt in the movie, or there is a dark character in the movie, what's the problem with that? It's a movie. It has to be this way. But because we take the dream so seriously, the suffering becomes the reality. The dream becomes the reality. It is believed to the reality. So we have the sense of separate entity or individual or a person or conceptual image that we hold about ourselves and we dream it to the reality.

We're dreaming it to become what it is and it feels like, okay, I'm that person. I'm here and I'm not there. You know, like my location. I can't locate it in the body, but I can very easily locate it where it is not. Like I can say it is not 100 meters from me, which is not true. If I know there is 100 meters from me, which I don't exist, then obviously there is a knowing of it. So you can't really even unlocate yourself. But for the purpose of the example, you can say, okay, I'm here but not there. And that's a concept. When it is believed, it becomes reality.

And we start living from that predicament and we start defending this one and not that. And we start being preoccupied with this and not that because this is me and this is not. But this is basically, this is all dreamed, a dream. Am I pronouncing it right? Sorry. The pronunciation is not real. No, no, the word is not the thing. Yeah, none of them. Which word is the thing? Yeah, maybe the word word is a thing. Yeah, it's amazing the way that the whole appearance came into existence basically by learning words and dreaming them to a reality. Because this is what the system is. This is what the symbolic language is about.

When I say the word rabbit, you have the mental image of a rabbit. And we can agree that his granddaughter have couple of rabbits and then they exist, they are real. But we can't experience them. We can experience only the world. And the symbolic language is what creates the whole time space. Like if there was no symbolic language, how could I even describe about the place of my grandmother or another continent? They only exist as symbols. And now those symbols are covering up as labels everything we see. We distinguish things. Like physics will tell us that there is same amount of atoms or particles vibrating here as it is here.

In the solid substance and in the space. There is no difference. It's only the configuration which is not even a fixed thing. It's a field of potentiality. It's almost as if reassuring its existence with our gaze and agreeing of its existence by labeling it out of the space makes it real. That's how the whole Maya, the whole dream becomes a reality. And what a magnificent miracle. What a miracle. But when we take it as the gospel, as reality, it's not a wonderful miracle anymore. It's a nightmare. It's, you know, like even maybe, you know, if you believe you're wonderful, you're better than the others, you're not dying on the streets of Calcutta and you're not leper.

Like Bob. Then it's not so bad. But you're still gonna age. You're still gonna get sick. You're still gonna lose your dear ones. You know, even if you're reasonably comfortable in the dream, you're not gonna avoid the dread of transition. Like people are afraid of dying. Or, you know, some people are not afraid of their own death because, yeah, what a big deal. I won't know. But if they have children, and imagine the children dying. Oh, my God. You know, the world, the conceptual world, the world of images is full of fear. It's full of dread. And, yeah, it's not that much fun. And if it is, it doesn't last.

The fun doesn't last because you want to hold it. You want to keep it here. Now, I'm good. So, what do we do not to lose it? It's crazy. It's crazy because the whole dream is transient. It's moving. It's constantly changing. And that's the beauty of it. Even the most beautiful, most tasty food and most tasty relationships, they fade. They change. They dance. They have ups and downs. There is no boredom. There is always a dance. There is always a flow. And that's, yeah, that's the beauty of it. But that's also the pain of it if there is an assumed reference point. If there is a reference point, that reference point will be trying to preserve the pleasure and push away the pain.

And that's impossible because everything is transient. Everything is moving, is changing. Nothing can be preserved or nothing can be pushed away in long term. Of course, I can push away the mosquito for a moment. But in a long term, everything is going to take a turn. The day is going to end and the night is going to start. The seasons are changing. Everything is constantly moving. So, with the reference point, one way or the other, the pleasure is going to end and it's going to change into pain. Without the reference point, pleasure and pain are going to be dancing on the screen, moving on the screen.

But the screen is going to be untouched. The screen is invulnerable. Body can be heard. Body is a screen. Body is a screen for the pain. But in which light is the body being known? In that light of awareness, the body is being known as the screen for experiences, for pains, for whatever. The mind is a screen for other sensations. For thoughts, for images. But in which light is the body-mind being known? What is there prior to any experiencing, prior to any screen, is again the pure existence. In that existence. And then we could have Dr. Tony arguing here and thank him for that. And love to Tony.

That existence is not a thing. Of course it's not a thing. Because we say there's one thing that's not a thing. There's one thing that is for real. There's one thing that is certain. There's one thing that can't be denied. It's not a thing. It's not a nothing either. It's neither a thing nor a nothing. It can't be described. Because if it could be described, you would have to move away from it to actually be able to disassociate yourself to describe it. So there are attempts to describe it. But there is no valid description that could be ever done. If there was, you would read about it in newspaper or whatever.

It can't be done because this is the essence, the emptiness that becomes form. This is the static aspect that dynamically moves and changes into the appearance. This is what I am. This is what you are. This is what I am. I am. There is I am in every one of you. So there is the same I am. The same being, the existence, the presence. So the same being kind of expressing and experiencing itself in different form. So there is the same being in that mobile phone that is recording. It has a being that is... It has an existence, the being, that is prior to senses.

It doesn't sense it because it doesn't have senses. Or it has sensors, but it doesn't have the... the consciousness of the sensors. I do it for it. Because I is the only thing there is. So everything has the being. Bob sometimes uses that analogy. This is being a carpet. This is being a chair. This is being Katarina or whatever. The being. There is a being in everything. Did you want to say something? No, no, no. No, sorry. The cat is distracting me. I'm getting a mess up. He's trying to ignore the cat. Blame it on poor innocent cat. Of course. Blame it on cat. It's me.

I'm sorry. I'm very distracted by your poops and boots. He's trying so hard to pay attention. I'm not. My attention's gone there. I'm sorry. You are not sorry. I'm sorry. Yes, jump on board people. Tell us about it. So distraction, distraction. Ah, there's a distraction. Ah, cool. Yes, we do like, we all like that. Very good Cat, excellent. Thank you, darling. We can break it down into it simply. We started off with knowing. And when you say, I don't know, could you say that if there wasn't a knowing there? So even if the knowing, don't know, appears on it, it appears on the knowing. The same with a being.

If anyone who is, say they're not being or not aware or not existing, there must be an existence to know that you're being or existing. And anyone who's not happy to be. And they put it simply in the Hindu scriptures and lots of other things, but they're not the basic ones either, like I'm going to say. They're just another explanation, sat-chit-ananda. Being, knowing and loving to be. That's sexual functioning. And it says the other two factors are nama-rupa, the name and form. And we put names on everything or labels on everything. And we've got the shapes and forms that are in this room. Out there in the manifestation.

They're the maya or the illusion. And we recognise the word or the label is not the thing. And we got locked into the word and believe in the word as thing. But it comes back to that. Everything is that and that is a word or a label. But that is describing some thing. How many things can there be in the no thing? So the things. All description or ideas or concepts about it. Everything is that. But we lose sight of that. We think it's put the labels on, take the word or the label or the concepts to be real. And they tell you to abide as that.

To stay with the thatness, which is the stillness. The sat-chit-ananda is being or existing, aware of the stillness. Which they call the stillness. Stillness Brahma, Sthiva, all sorts of other labels. Call it God. But take those labels off and still the basic screen. Stillness and silence. Then we're looking at the mind. And we've taken this mind to be something and some real. Investigate the mind and see if there is such a thing as mind. And you realise the mind is nothing but thought. Thinking is mind. And if your mind was a thought, which particular thought would you be? Which particular thought would you be? Which particular thought would you be?

Which particular thought would you be? Which particular thought would you be? Which particular thought would you be? Well we immediately put I am the mind. That thought up conceptual, individual, separate entity. We believe that is the mind and that is what I am. The personal being. But the person is not reality when you look at it. So that is all there is. There only is pure functioning in the merits and ways it does. And you can't be anything other than that. So when they say, abide as that, where else can you really abide? Where else can you live? Can you live outside of any of it?

Try and separate yourself from any of it. And we're talking about things and no things. And that's all the manifestation is made up of things. But is the thing the actual? Is it the real? The things we put labels or words on. So it's all coming in that basic screen of stillness and silence. Which is no thing. You can't describe the stillness or the silence or the emptiness. We try to. Just as we try to describe awareness. Can any of you tell me what awareness is? You can put a label on it. But again, none of you can say I am not unaware right now.

So without describing it, you know that awareness is constantly there. And hasn't it been there all through this talk? Or you've been thinking of all sorts of things. All sorts of things on top of it. Maybe or maybe not. Realise you're always and ever that. Never been anything else. It'll do for them because I can't remember all the things that they desire in England. That's good. So try and keep recognising that instead of getting the conceptual images. And the words and labels we put upon ourselves. And trying to grasp it with a concept. Because you'll never. This I've got to tell you. I've got to tell you.

I'll never grasp what I've got. And there is no such thing as a seeker when you look into it. And when you see it as I am seeking to become. Seeking is moved away from immediacy. And reliving it to an image. A conceptual image. By all means. A personal image. So we say here starts and effects you are already that. You always have been. And you think you always will be. But we've labelled ourselves with millions of concepts. We've acquired millions of concepts and ideas and thoughts. And we've got all the psychological concepts and ideas. And we try and go through them to bring ourselves.

Till. Till that stillness and stillness. But what is wrong with right now. If you're not conceptualising. If you're not thinking about it. If you're not thinking about it. You're not dividing the thinking of the thinker and the thought. You're not dividing the thinking of the thinker and the thought. The seer into the seer and the seen. Realise there's thinking, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. All these functions going on. If it's not divided. What is it? As it always was. It's the one essence that's appearing. Patting, shaping, forming, expressing, exhibiting. And there could be no manifestation. If it didn't vibrate. In the interrelated opposites. Shakespeare told you it couldn't be good or bad.

Pleasant or bad. It doesn't bother you because it is bad. Without a thought. Nothing is either good or bad, but the thinking makes it so. Looking into the thinking, try and find the thinker. There is no thinker, but there is thinking. So you must be the thinking. You must be the seeing. You must be the hearing. Stay with that. Thanks. Beautiful. I love that reminder. Awareness of stillness. Being aware of stillness. Like this is something. that is there all the time. This is the true nature, the natural state. It's there all the time. It's only obscured by the noise. But awareness of stillness, being aware of stillness, sat-chit-ananda, what he just said, sat-chit-ananda, being aware of stillness, of being knowing and loving to be.

Everyone is aware of stillness. It's obviously not suiciding. It's the thing closest to you right now, is that stillness. There's no movement in space in front of you. Space doesn't move. Space, movement appears out there. And the silence, couldn't there be silence without sound? Or sound without silence? Hear the silence in this room right now? Recognise it? And the basic stillness? But we're not used to staying there. We constantly want to move away to some concept and think we're going to grasp it with a concept, with an idea. I've got it. It's this, it's that. And the Sāgha tells you plainly and clearly, you cannot be trying to grasp it with a concept.

And we fail. And you're always and ever bound to fail. Because as the Buddhist put it, it's non-conceptual awareness. The great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. It's that unawareness which you're knowing that you are right now, from the point of view of awareness, or you wouldn't know it, without any concepts. Simple. That's what we were talking to Julia yesterday also, about that state where Tony is using a fantastic set of words, if she could only speak it slower. Nothing is being made of anything. There is quiet. The mind is quiet. Things are happening on the screen of awareness, and they are not being interpreted, retranslated. They are not being evaluated.

It's just quiet. Like we were having a nice chat yesterday while, you know, the life situation can present you with challenges now. And you can obviously see that situation is not really that easy to resolve or is challenging. But yeah, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. What if I could find something positive in this? What if I could... Maybe it is all coming to good. Maybe this is going to be fantastic. And I say, well, there is a third option. You can evaluate situation as negative or challenging. You can find something good and retranslate it as positive or learning process or whatever. Or you can just shut up and have absolutely no story about it.

Just be quiet about it. It is what it is. It doesn't need the story, whether it is good or bad or anything at all. It helps, of course, changing the negative thinking into positive thinking. It helps the dream is going to be more pleasurable. But there is an opportunity to wake up from thinking and leave it as it is and have no judgment about the situation, what it is. Good. Good. But no, it is just as it is. And that is even more pleasurable. It is even more sweet than brainwashing yourself that this is great. Or even convincing yourself and really believing that this is great.

Believing anything is always a dream over a dream and it is unnecessary. Even believing that something is wonderful is just unnecessary. The plain reality as it is, where this awareness of stillness shines forth, is much, much sweeter and is much, much more conscious and more alive. Any ideas, even believed dearly, are still dead flat ideas. While the aliveness can be experienced fully, not translated through the thoughts or stories. But again, not for the mind. And then anybody who is not that, says, Tony, which is saying, listen, well, Tony, is that? Anyone in this room who is not that? Yeah. Anyone could. No wonder it's the main mantra.

I am that. How about that? This is that. Everything is that. We know that in our label. That's the chair. That's the carpet. That's Bill. That's me. That's you. We put labels on it. We take the label or the word to be real. Is the word the thing? Is the description the describe? Is the map the territory? Isn't that right, Kat? Thank you. Beautiful distraction. Oh, pure love. See, it doesn't have any ego. It doesn't evaluate situations. It just melts into it. It's one with the environment. And it's playful. It's joyous. What's that core sense of me? And, but to get to that core sense of me, when I was young, there was a whole lot of other— shedding that had to take place.

Because when I first got introduced to this, whatever it was that was rambling between both my ears, I wore it. I was it. When I would have a thought, and I did, and, you know, a lot of people do at some point in time in their life. But, you know, when I had a thought, for example, you're useless, you know, you're a dickhead, whatever, just especially all the self-criticizing stuff that used to go on, I embodied those thoughts and became it, you know. And then I got introduced to this and there's a, you know, Kat touched on it, the first phase for me was just starting to recognize the thought, or thoughts rather, and just in the doing, without getting really complicated, but just in the doing of that, there was, they started, it seemed like, because that's the only way I can put it, there started to be a separation from all the content that was going on in my mind.

I could actually start to see it as being something separate from me or something over there as opposed to I'm it and I'm wearing it. And then, tricky little bastard that it is, I started to have realizations and I started to see different things. You know, and I got to a point where I could, I got to a point where there was so much gap between, um, awareness and, and, and content, let's say, that it was like completely apparent that I'm not that I could see that. And, no, there was no more questions arose, there's nothing. And I was just kind of, it was a sense of, um, being in a, uh, a limbo state.

Just, just, just floating, not kind of knowing what to do, where to go, where to look, what to ask, how to be, just not knowing kind of arose. And When I said before that the last thing that was recognised here was that core sense of me, was because, and I didn't realise this, all that that I'd become aware of, and all that that I'd seen, I'm not this, I'm not that, I'm not, and so on. And even the concepts and the ideas that I picked up along the way, that I'm nothing, but I'm everything, I'm love, I'm emptiness, but I'm fullness, all the terminologies, all the jargon that I picked up along the way from listening to Bob and others, that was also in the mix.

And what I didn't realise was, yes, absolutely. There was awareness of all that, but what I didn't see was that there was a core sense of me that was left, that was saying, I can see that. I was still claiming ownership of that that was aware of all that. And it was the last thing I spotted. It was the very last thing that I spotted. The last thing. And it had nothing to do with... the content anymore. The ideas of a me, and what I believe the world is, and just... had nothing to do with all that. But it was a sense of... I'm here.

Like, I'm here. Just a sense of... So that... I don't know if anyone else is going through that, but that... can be really, really, really... confusing. Like, really confusing. Because you kind of end up with... feeling a bit lost, actually. All I did, I just kind of felt a bit lost and... and... I knew that on some intellectual level or... in duality, if you like, I knew that I wasn't going to get the answer there. Like, I knew that. I knew that, you know. And yet there was still... I've not said it before. I still kind of felt like I was here. I still felt like I was stuck.

You know, I still felt... like there was a meanness here. You know. And it was in that... realisation that... I... saw. I just saw... that last little... thing... that that... separate so-called individual... or idea of self was hanging on to. And the last thing that it... because everything else kind of got blown away. But the last thing that it was hanging on to... was that I'm aware. This is... my awareness. And I still see that. And I didn't recognise that initially... as still being a self-identity. Still being like a... a separate self... that was seeing that. And then for whatever reason, I just saw it.

I heard it. I saw it. What's... was like the last tiny little bit of a thing... that was left... that I... that... I couldn't even describe it. Because I'd described the shit out of it... prior to that. Prior to that. And it stilled me. It actually... it stopped me. There was... was a bit of a shock really. To even... recognise it and see it. You know. And there was no story attached to it. There wasn't. I'd done the story. You know, there was just... Oh! And I just saw... I just saw... you know... the last thing it was hanging onto. Which... is kind of... kind of makes sense, you know, because the...

the me believes that it needs to survive. It's kind of like... it's gotta hang onto something. You know, there's like this... self-survival mechanism that goes on, you know. And... um... you know... the scariest thing of all to let go of... to really... for that... that... identity... to let go of... was aliveness. Was that sense of presence. Was that sense of awareness. Of course. That was the thing that... that... you know... out of all things... that was the thing... that... that... I would protect most. Because if I die, I'm not here. You know. That was the... that sense of presence. And I just... saw that and...

it kind of became a bit funny really. Because I saw it. I just... look... and I saw that... that core... sense of me. I saw that... as clearly... as the experience that I experienced... when I was seeing... I'm not the content. Like... there comes a point where you can see it. You just know... you're not... you know you're not the content... of thought I'm talking about. All the images and ideas and... concepts and so on and so forth. You do absolutely eventually get to a point where you go... I can see that. I know I'm not that. The same applies to that core. So there's a...

a further... but it's really, really tricky. Because it presents itself. Is there a core there? No. No, no. So all that... was conditioned belief. Yeah. Not true to conditioning. But that pure... conditioning was still living. Yeah. And that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... that's... there. Leaving to be something there when you see this. Even that... you can't... What conditioning is there? If you don't think of it... It dissolves. There's... there's nothing there. So you've always been that. Yes. And even the idea that there is... It's an irony. There is something that needs to be dropped off. Yeah. If there is any idea that there's something wrong...

that very idea is the... Yeah. And all that... as I was saying that... that was just all... in content but in the end was just that... I still feel like I'm here what a beautiful thing to come out of my mouth and didn't realize it yeah I still feel like I'm here no that's the irony of it like and then there was that and I saw that I absolutely it was in that that I I saw that like I saw that I don't know where else what what what yeah I don't know what else I was expecting to find like really you know like yeah and that's all it is it's it's literally just the conditioning stops it does just here yeah yeah without an idea of what here was cat touched on it before you know that sense of presence when we're still identified with the me that sense of presence is like really bland fucking kidding me this surely this I need it's gotta be there's got to be something else that I'm not aware of that I'm not saying you want to know why it does that because that me if you like cannot cannot experience that sense of presence it can't it can't experience it doesn't actually know what the fuck it is it can't experience it it's dead yet it claims ownership of it which was the last thing that left here and it's dead here it claims ownership of it yeah I know what awareness is it's pretty fucking ordinary like really this is it you know but the actual hmm experience of that sense of presence rather than the conceptual or you know looking through conceptual glasses of what we think it is it's like night and day it's just like night and day you can't even compare the two completely you can't you can't even compare the two completely you can't even compare the two completely one doesn't even exist.

It doesn't exist. But it's a, and I hear it in people. I hear it in people that are still stuck in the seeking. Yeah, I get that and I understand that and I see that. I see that. And then you've got to ask them at that point when people get to that, who sees that? Who knows that? Who recognises that? Because there's still a me there claiming ownership of, oh, I can now see that or I'm now aware of that or I now get that. So there's kind of a whole lot of noise that needs to be seen first. A lot of fucking noise, you know, over 50 years of noise that you carry around.

That kind of noise needs to be seen first. And then kind of just the inner... My experience is it's kind of all narrowed down into one point, if you like. There's all that noise and eventually it just kind of narrowed down into one point. And that point for me was, I still feel like I'm here. Hallelujah. You just like point out, you know, it turns up knots in the gut, say, lumps in the throat. You look at it, look right into it, where is it? You see there's nothing solid there. But it's like, it's got to be seen. And also another thing that is... A big difference.

I mean, when there is still some subtle sense of me, even though that me believes now, I've got it, I understand it, I'm this. Now I have the clarity. I am clear or I'm enlightened. And there is still a tension here. Oh my gosh, I have to make sure everybody believes that. That very tension, that idea that, oh my God, this is so important that other people also know that. And I have to never forget about it. You know, I got it. I have to make myself believe that I've got it. This uneasiness, this is the very core self, like you call it, this sense of uneasiness, because if there is any sense of contraction here, any sense of unworthiness, any involvement in the shape or form of the image, it means there is the realization is the realization of no self.

There is nothing there. There is no contraction, there is no distance, there is no difference between the pure space, cognizing space. In here and out here is complete ease. There is no... I don't care what people think about me. I don't care whether they believe or don't believe or what I've got or what I didn't get or what I lost or... It doesn't matter. If there is any sense of contraction, that's the contraction that needs to be recognized. And that contraction needs to be seen. And that contraction needs to be seen as the content. And the screen is the awareness. The pure knowing is the awareness.

So it doesn't mean that if someone will insult me, there won't be a natural response of contraction for a moment. It will. Like if I step on the tail of a cat, there will be a natural response. If someone will slap me in the face with words or with hand, there will be a natural response. But this response, as soon as the trigger response will be gone so I won't be carrying it around for weeks or months or whatever because there is no one to refer or relate to that would be involved doesn't mean that you know that the insult is not going to trigger reaction reaction is part of survival mechanism on the back of the body physic physical as a slap or emotional because that body is complicated enough to recognize both of them but if the contraction stays investigation is to be invited looking at it looking at that from if you could find a centre anywhere and you're going to do that a few times can you ever believe it again wherever you're looking at something in the body where anywhere else from you must be looking from somewhere.

You look at it from the eyes, go back and have a look at where you're looking at the eyes from, or what's coming out of the eyes. But all sorts of concepts and ideas on it, and you can't find a spot anywhere you can say this is what it is. Pure awareness, the pure knowing, like the knowing of being, is not filtered yet by the bio-computer. Because the pure awareness, when filtered by the body, becomes the awareness of the content of seeing, the awareness of the content of hearing. Like now, I'm aware of you in the room, but that awareness is already filtered through the eyes.

Blind person would not have that same experience. Or the content of hearing, again, this is awareness about or awareness of. Pure awareness doesn't even need senses, doesn't even need sensing. This is a transformer in which the pure awareness is transformed into the hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. But the being, the awareness of being, is not the same as the awareness of hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling, because it doesn't require the eyes or the ears or anything. Some people say that, oh, awareness of being at first is a new thing. But it doesn't. feels like a vibration in the body, so it is a sensory experience.

Yes, but this is not the awareness of being. This is the expression of it. So, the way you say now, so is it true, one of the senses or the five senses and one that observes that? The senses are actually the way the world is experienced and expressed through the senses, is the awareness that is filtered through the body. But who is aware of the five senses? Who is aware of all that ? Like there is a being prior to... Yes, they call it non-conceptual awareness, which is awareness that doesn't get filtered through the mind. And seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling is filtered through the mind.

People who are brain-dead, they can't tell you the smell or the sense or they can't recognize objects. So, the non-conceptual is really the way the world is experienced. It's really non-sensual as well, because the sensory objects are the labels that we agreed that they are objects separated. Objectively, objectively, so called, the science would tell you that they are field of potentiality. What you see becomes kind of, you know, becomes the experience. So, the awareness of being is not the... The being expresses as the vibration of sensations in the belly or whatever, or as the smell of the air or temperature of the environment. That's the expression of it.

That's how it is interpreted by the body. But the existence, the pure existence, the knowing that you are, is not a sensory knowing, it's pre-sense. It's prior to the sensory knowing. Presence, pre-sense. And it can't be denied. That's the only thing. It can't be found. It can't be measured. It can't be described. But it can't be denied either. So you can't say that you're not being, or you're not aware. That's the only thing that we can say about it. And that's who we are, because how could I say who or what I am without moving away from myself to be able to see it and describe it?

And obviously when I move away from myself to see it and describe it, I'm not that myself anymore, I'm something else. So, it's totally... It's totally impossible to ever find the answer, who am I or what am I? Or what is being or what is knowing? Because that's one thing. I am the being, knowing, loving to be. So I can't ever really... This is just a label. But really, I can never ever be aware of my... of that Sat Chit Ananda because this is what I am. I am the awareing agent. I am the awareness itself, the awareing. Not the object in it, but the subject.

Yeah. Not the object in it, but the subject. What do you call it? Objectivity. Pure subjectivity. So the moment this is... Yeah, I repeated, I hate repeating myself, but I have to do it because the vocabulary is limited. Well, repetition is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, it is. It is. That's right. Yeah, if not for Sabine challenging me on listening to Bob for, like, six weeks, every day the same spiel, I wouldn't understand it the way I did. Yeah, it is. Yeah, repetition is good. It is good, you're right. I don't say that too many times. can ever hear enough. Yes, that's true. It carries the right frequency.

It offers the silence that underlies. The words are only a medium and they are conveying the certainty of being. Because that certainty in Bob and in me, in Terry, in many of you is unshakable. It should be unshakable in everyone because who can deny the being? Everyone in this room is that. Why don't you have a look and see? Yes. So before you said there's no seeker, you said, right? So what is the difference between you and me at this stage? Because I know we're the same thing, same person or same energy or whatever, right? But I'm on this side of the fence and you're on the other side of the fence sort of thing, right?

Who's on that side? Well... Well, I've got to give you the... The character of the right thing to have. Yes, the conceptual image you've got about yourself... But is there really any difference between the knowingness there and the knowingness here? Or the awareness that's appearing on there or here? Can you divide them or separate them? Separate them. If you can't divide them, what must you be? Why are you frightened of saying it? But I am that. Again, conditioning stops you from taking... Oh, I couldn't possibly be me. you're right yeah the difference between you and book you and bob is in only in your mind bob doesn't see the difference bob knows there is no difference that's what i said before so you explain the difference bob can't explain it because for him there is no difference for you there is a difference what is the difference because i see myself as a seeker you know i've just said before there is no safety i understand that too but i don't know yeah that's fantastic so so it's only the way you see yourself us this is the only difference the image that you have of yourself is the only difference and that's the condition pattern based on your past events and experience and your life whatever everybody's told you what you're told is all conditioning because i see myself as a seeker yeah i'm a seeker otherwise yeah otherwise you're not if you take if you relax that image of a seeker forget about it when you fall asleep you're not a seeker that's right yeah and another way is there's seeking yeah so relax it's got nothing to do with you do you understand yeah like there there is seeking but the problem is then a seeker steps in and goes yeah i am seeking no no no there's just seeking yeah so in other words hearing so that is i'm going to separate from the fact that there is seeking but there's no eyes seeking yeah and it's just the investigation and then it's gracey that's what it seems to be the one the great thing but it comes from beyond the mind that can really be misinterpreted yeah yeah you have to you have to watch out for this yeah you have to watch out for that you know i sat for years waiting for that to happen like for years i i sat for years waiting for so-called grace to happen you know like come on wake up because there's no media and intellectually I knew that you know but so if it's not on a grace note so if it's not up to me then come on the last thing one of the last things I let go of was the way waiting I stopped seeking like the seeker or the seeking like the China finances and that stopped and then I just got to a point okay this I can't make this me can't make this happen knew that me cannot make this happen me is the problem so me can't make this happen you know so then I just then I just found myself residing in a perpetual state of waiting but there was still me waiting do you understand and that waiting was going to take as long as it took providing there was a me here waiting that waiting would go on for eternity forever so as long as there was a waiter there was waiting yeah yeah waiter cool yeah and then and then I just went fuck this and I just let it all go like and it was just something that spontaneously happened and then I just let it all go like and it was just something that spontaneously happened if I could have made that just letting it all go happen much sooner I fucking would have I would have done that thank you but that's not what came up so it just it just spontaneously came up to here the last thing went well yeah it's just I got here I was just waiting then and I was waiting for grace I was waiting for grace and while I'm waiting for grace it's not gonna happen so I just yet certainly it was just seat so what did I just got to just fucking sit still you idiot sit still shut the fuck up and isn't it a great blue sky and it was as fucking simple as that seriously as simple as that yes I think that is not how I won I use the term grades because a lot of people you've ever been used at the past I use that because I'm gonna wake up here and just sit still for once.

to try and do what I just tried to explain to Tony there is seeking already happening so fucking relax into that just relax into that another way of saying that is you're already being taken relax the fuck out you know what I mean like sit back into it but it's difficult for me to do that because it feels like it needs to grab at things I need to know that I need to have that I need to understand that it's difficult to do that so I try and get around that with people that are still doing that by saying look you want to wake up it's got nothing to do with you it's got nothing to do with you just sit back sit back and relax you're already being lived this way already being lived this way problem is we take credit for how I'm living this way and that needs to be seen Tony I really understand what's going on because I identify and this morning it was a recognition of oh hang on I wake up and then I wake up to a projection I wake up to a projection of who I am and what I'm projecting and I don't know and a bit like what you were saying oh so I'm not any of that then what is there and so there was a freak out because I'm grasping for an identity I'm grasping for I'm an addict I'm full of shame I'm revolting or I'm bliss or I'm whatever but there's a thing that I'm thinking that I am and this morning was kind of the first time where there was oh hang on I'm still conceptualizing I'm always conceptualizing and without that it's like give me something to feel good about I need something to feel I need something to feel because it feels like this is nothing so give me a sugar here or let's overeat because then I can feel something I can relate to everything you say and that's exactly where I'm at exactly where I'm at and I actually remember the dream that I had last night it was so clear I was losing my computer in this dream and you know the computer she was losing her computer in this dream in my dream you know and it was it was uh you know I was so worried about it because it was my work and that's my identity for me it's always been my that's my conditioning my work is my identity and um but you know but then I Bob came to my brain and um and as I was waking up I thought I've got to go this morning and Bob's face was this in my brain which was very strange very strange is that a concept one?

you're haunting her dreams okay there you go it's very interesting yeah very interesting but I have exactly that same feeling I'm constantly projecting something onto Bob or to you like there's a constant projection constantly that's so cool to see that's so cool to see Tess like that needs to be seen absolutely needs to be seen that's awesome it can be really disconcerting though because when you kind of sit back prior to that like and that's just kind of like sitting back into that the awareness of that kind of feels a bit spaceless it feels a bit empty and you'll find when that does happen that's when you'll really start to see the grabbing I need to hold onto something it's like you're drowning clutching at something to stop yourself from drowning that's when you really see that and you just kind of got to go through that you got to sit with that I don't want to it's just I don't want to that's not the same you are I'm trying to look out of it it's all listen that the safe thing is you're being drowned is that what you're going to do no no look the safe thing is that it's all conceptual everything everything I just said everything you they're just ideas seriously but what I did like what you were talking about before that at the end of all that there was oh but I'm still here yeah Pat drop the wanting be the needing drop the wanting be the needing the needing the needing the needy the difference between wanting and needing yes one more time explain it Bob explain the needing drop the wanting be the needing yeah do you really want it or do you need it yes wanting can be conceptual needing it is something you really require what do you need right now you might want many sort of things but can you put add anything onto that being that you are yeah that's a good way to put it like you know the idea of grasping that you want to distract yourself you want to medicate yourself you don't want to sit with that void because it's kind of uncomfortable that silence or that void and it's just but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but a breath right now.

Or did you want to do that or was it just a... So in my case, I feel that unless I'm doing something, I'm not going to get there. Like, that's my idea, my concept. So I need to listen to someone or meditate or do something. Because if I don't do anything, it's like... So I should let go of all that. No, it's the needing to do something to do it. I need to do this. See, the idea that you should continue or you should stop is just a dream because you have no saying, really. I mean, if you are moved to continue, you will continue showing up on the meeting or reading or doing whatever.

And if you're meant to stop, you'll stop. Whether you're moving or not, it's up to you. Whether you will say, okay, I can't do anything so I will stop now. Now you are pretending to be a doer who has the power to choose to stop. You can't. It will either happen or it won't. You are only the awareness of whatever is happening. So whether I think I'm seeking or I'm not seeking or seeking, it's got really nothing to do with me. Totally nothing. It's just the content of the movie. You are the screen and the movie is about seeker or about non-seeker or whatever is on the movie.

It doesn't really matter. You are the screen. You are untouched by it. And you can't do anything about it. The movie is already playing. You can't change it. You can't do anything about it. You can't stop seeking either. You can't start. You can only be aware of it. You can only wake up to it and see what's going on. What is the description of yourself? What's the description of yourself? What do you think you are? I have no idea what concept. I've been told it's different. But personally I can't say I've experienced that. I've had touches but it's not always the case. What Bob is asking you is describe that self.

Honestly. What you actually think you are. Not what the right answer is. What's your direct experience right now? What do you think you are? What's going on? Well at the moment I think I'm searching. You're a seeker? A person or a seeker? Yes. I hear the person. I hear the person. The person's persona is a conceptual mask based on your past and conditioning and everything like that. That's what you think Tony is. Yeah but I know that as a concept. Right. Well. I was seeking that. You're not going to relate it to the concept. Yeah. For all reason. I guess but. I really am. Yes.

That's what I was talking about. Yeah. I'm sort of separating myself from it in a way. Yeah. By saying that I'm a seeker when in actual fact it's all coming out from the same. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It occurred to me while you were talking. Yeah. Do you want to say something? Nothing really. No. Just say it. Just say it. Go for it. Just that you were talking earlier about awareness. Yeah. We're talking all the time. I know. But you're talking a lot about it. I'm just talking. Yeah. But. But. Well you used the word earlier. You were discussing it. And it occurred.

And I don't know why I've thought of this before. But it just started thinking that it never turns off. Yeah. Never. It doesn't. Like it never turns off. Right. And of course I can get the idea. There's no spatial boundaries to it. There's no beginning or end to it. It's never off. It's always on. It must be what I am. Absolutely. If that was turning on and off, you would be aware of it. And I can't find it. I can't even find it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. The whole manifestation appears in that awareness. There's no one out there discriminating. This is good or this is bad.

It's just that pure awareness. It's not unaware. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Without it. And you can't turn it off. So you are that. Take it. It's yours. And notice how the mind is trying to take over. Yeah. The mind is trying to take ownership and discuss it or understand it or feed it in because that's the tendency. And just see the tendency. The moment where there is absolutely nothing. Like, yeah. And then quiet and the eyes go a little bit like, ah, well, let me chew on it a little bit. Gone. It's good to actually notice that tendency because that's how it happens. The insight is when the mind is not.

There is no mind. Yeah. And the mind kicks in. How am I going to remember it? Maybe, oh, gone. And the mind will drop again and it will show itself fresh and new, always fresh and new. Even the same because it is a very, very same singularity. But it's always fresh. Okay. There's nothing other than that. Everything is that. Yeah. Everything is that. You know. But we adorn the thatness with, just like we dress ourselves up with makeup and clothes and God knows what, but all sorts of concepts. But the thatness is unadorned by any concept. Isn't that enough? Yeah. Yes. When I'm listening to you guys speak though, aren't I listening to concepts though?

So like I'm thinking about concepts as I'm listening to you guys speak? You tell us. You tell us because you know the answer. The mind probably hears concepts, but there is something beyond the mind. I don't know if it's a conscious concept, but there is something beyond the mind that resonates with the silence, with the frequency that is. What's your heart hearing? Is there a relaxation or trust or just the being? You already know. Yeah. You actually already, you already know because you are here. And that's why, nothing to do with the me. That's why we keep coming back to this. We already know. And you don't realize that until you know that you know.

And then you don't know. Well, it's like. I was already talking the other day. It's like, you know, initially it's, I don't know that I don't know. Initially. When we first get introduced to this. Or even, we just don't know that we don't fucking know. We don't know. No fucking clue. The average person on the street would be in that category. Yeah. No clue. I don't know that I don't know. Then it goes to, huh, I know that I don't know. Interesting. Fuck. And then it goes to, I know that I know that I don't know. So, Mr. Rumfield is like that. That's, that's, I know that I know that I don't know.

I don't care. I don't need to know because there is no me to know anything at all. That's right. Yeah. So, the not knowing and the knowing is not a problem anymore because, because there is no one to know. So, there is no, even that, even desire to find out who you are drops off. Because the question, who am I, is the questioner itself, is the seeker. The seeker asks the question and starts the whole show. If there is no question, there is no seeker. There is no questioner. There is no one who needs to know. And the seeking is not required anymore. If I don't need to figure out who I am, why would I look for myself?

And obviously, this only happens when there is no me to, who want to figure out. In that state of, I don't, I just don't know. In that state of, I know that I don't know, I fucking hate not knowing. Like, I can't, but that, that was better than ignorance, kind of. Ignorance is, yeah, kind. So, you know, I, I, I know that I don't know. I didn't like that. I didn't like that, that feeling of, of not knowing. I didn't like that. So, off I went. Boom. Got a fucking no. Now I got a no. And then you eventually get to, I know that I know that I don't know.

You don't give a shit. You don't care anymore. Like, that, you, you don't care anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got the extra steps, or the... That all drops off. Just drops away. Because you can't describe it anyway. At the end of the day, it cannot be described. It just, I mean, we can describe it, but we know the description's not the thing. I know that I know. Fucking that's great. I don't give, I don't give a shit about not knowing. Whereas prior to that, I couldn't live with that. No, there was an I that could give a shit, and now there's no I that can give a shit.

I just couldn't live with that. I had to know. That for me was the seeking. That for me was the search. I have to know. And that had to be there. It's just all part of the play. All, all, all the way that this was playing out. It's, it's okay. But going through it was yuck. Fuck, I hate not knowing. Hate it. Got a no. And boy, did I fill my head up with a lot of stuff that later just dropped away. But, it's just part of, getting to that, I know, I don't know is so liberating. Just, so. And you love to not know it.

Yeah. It's just the sweetest thing, not to know and not to need to know, not to have any desire to know, just freedom, complete freedom from, from having the answer and all that. It's kind of refreshing when others admit that they don't know. Yeah. Have you ever gone somewhere and you try to get directions from somebody and people try to fake it until the end and they'll... Oh, I don't know, but they'll... Because they have to tell you something. They have to... They have to... One of the Christian saints wrote the book The Cloud of Unknowing. You know? Famous book. It said in Christian science they have a book called The Cloud of Unknowing?

Not in Christian science. One of the ancient Christian saints. Oh, Christian saints. I thought you said Christian science. Sorry. The Cloud of Unknowing. So it's there. Come on, we're not here all day. Thank you very much. Thank you.