Like a dream... Non Duality: Sailor Bob, Kat and Terry Thursday, 6 Sept 2018

Yeah, it's Max going, he says. Clever, he? Yeah, he's doing alright. He's doing alright. He was through. He comes and I've got him. He's doing alright. He was through. He comes and I've got him. You want to say something? Pardon? You want to say something? An introduction or whatever? You want an introduction? Yeah. Well, cat's taken over tonight. I'm having a rest. It's the best introduction. Yeah. It's the best introduction you can get. Very creative. Not talking to any cats. Not talking to any cats. Very creative. Not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to anyone. What's next? I'm talking to that I am that I am.

Do you really understand it? Do I really understand it? Yeah, I think so. So, why don't you just stick to one pointer until everyone understands it. Okay, which pointer? I don't know. Just pick one. That's all. Well, there's nobody here to talk to, right? You're not talking to anybody. You're not talking to anyone. Right. You're not talking to anybody. You're not talking to anyone. Right. I'm talking to that I am that I am, which is the intelligence energy and the nothingness and the everything that I am, which is you too. Yeah. How did we see you? Yeah, sorry. You just kind of blended in. I'm sorry.

That was cool. So, how well do you know about it? You're being interviewed now. I'm being interviewed. How well do you know it? Do you know it as well as Bob? No. No, I don't. That's why I like to hear him talk. So, what's the difference between Bob and you? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What is the difference between his knowing and your knowing? He's much more experienced, and I think that there's still some storying happening, which to me means that if there's storying happening, there's an identification of an I that has a story, and I could be wrong, but it happens once a year, you know?

Today could be the day. Would you like to do more of what I'm saying at the start? Oh, no. That's interesting. Sorry? More identification? Who is this myself? There is no self to identify, but there does appear to be identifying sometimes, I suppose. If I'm... Why? If there's something that appears, why? Why lock into the appearance? Why lock into the appearance? It's hypnotic. It's fun, I guess. It's a habit. There's those are my reasons why, I guess. Who's reasons? Nobody's. Nobody is saying that, but that's not true. There's somebody, the myself, that you believe in. Yeah. Anyway. No, no, no. You're going. You're doing great.

I would love to hear... I'm going well enough. I don't have to tell anybody anything. I'm right. But you kind of happen to be doing it for most of your life, so it means that... Yeah. I'm quite safe where I am. That you care. You know, you care. You're so good at it. Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Well, I'm going to go get something. I've got it. I've got it. Okay. What am I talking about? What am I telling you? And everybody is that, why aren't you good at it? I'm stupid, aren't I? Why rely on me?

Okay. If you really hear that there is a... How do I say? I'm not speaking to anybody. I'm not speaking to any mind. One way to look at this is see if you are the body or the mind, because this is not who is his personality. who is he speaking to. So if the body hears that, can actually body hear anything if the mind is off? Like can the body hear anything if you are in coma or your brain is dead? You can't even say what it's hearing or if it is hearing. Although I've heard people say that when they're in comas they do have memories and stuff like that.

Yeah, memories, yeah, sure, maybe. But the body itself doesn't really hear. When the body is dead, it's still there. It's not hearing. Now what is the mind? Can the mind hear at all? The mind is a stream of thought. The thought, the mind can't even hear. It needs the ears. So can the body-mind actually hear? Because if it can, that's fantastic. But this is not what he is talking to. If the body-mind can hear something, the entity or the individual that you believe yourself to be, if that can hear, okay, let it hear. But Bob is not speaking to that one. He's speaking to something else, something beside, beyond, above, whatever, something else.

Something else, not the body-mind. So if there is an individual or a body-mind listening, let it be. Just ignore it. But there is something else that is meant to hear it. Does it understand words? This other thing? You tell me. Like, I'd imagine a word. Yes, so this something else is expressing, this emptiness is expressing as forms, is expressing as bio-computer, as radio, as clouds, as volcanoes, as cats, dogs. So it has every possible capacity through its expression. But without the body, obviously, it doesn't really have it. It doesn't have even the capacity of hearing physical words. But is it really the words that are being conveyed or transmitted?

Because there is something about resonance, not necessarily words. There was a guy who used to come here, the Japanese guy, on the beginning he didn't really speak much of an English. And he would sit here because he would know that there is something that doesn't even need to understand words, that resonates. So whether that's something, actually to be precise, that's not a thing. No, I think you clarify it. Yeah, because something beyond the body-mind is a limitation of the language. There is not a thing. It is not that when Bob says, I'm talking to the I am that I am, or to consciousness, or to sense of presence.

Is that sense a thing? Can you grab it? Can you define the living? There are limits of that thing. You can't. So it's not really a thing. But because the language doesn't really, you know, we didn't develop vocabulary to communicate it in a way that, in any better way. So this is the point. The body-mind, if it hears it, let it hear it. Let it play with it. The mind will take it for a trip, will twist it, will interpret it, will have a story about it. Doesn't matter. Let it be. It's not the mind. The commentary under the movie or subtitles, whatever. It doesn't matter.

So whether there is a mind understanding, grasping, getting it, doesn't matter. Because it's not the mind that it is supposed to wake up. It's not, well, that one is not really asleep. The one is not even a one. So it is, the conversation is from one self to one self. It's just the one life essence. Expressing through this body and through that body. And the conversation is that very life essence, the awareness of presence, or the knowing that you are, communicating with the same knowing that is everywhere, that is not separated from anything. Now, because the words, you know, that's how the computer is being programmed.

The words are being used. Words are really just a medium to transmit the proper frequency of that certainty of being. Because the certainty of being, everyone is certain that they are. They know that they are. But nobody pays attention. Nobody cares. So the whole attention is completely distorted into the appearance, into the illusion, into a dream. The pleasures, the senses, the stories in the head. So the being is there. It's unobscured. It can't be touched. It's there. As much Julia's being or your being is as evident and as certain as Bob's being. There is no difference. So where is the difference now? If Bob is, he has absolute certainty that that very sense of presence or being is the only reality worthy of your attention.

And there are things popping up. The dinner that he doesn't want to join. Or the... You've got to get that one in the middle. I didn't plan that. It just came up. I wasn't going to. Anyway, that stuff just comes up. But this is part of the appearance. This is part of the dream. And the awareness of presence or the knowing that you are is not forgotten. It's still the most important thing. It's still the most important thing. It's still the most important thing. It's still the most important and the most, the sweetest, the most beautiful thing because it is real. Because it's there all the time.

It's totally reliable. It's real. This is the reality. But the way we were conditioned, we were conditioned to completely ignore that. Ignore the one thing that is actually completely reliable and undeniable. And get distracted with the dream. You know? Just change the movie. Just put another movie. Just get some music. Something. Something. Because, well, and it's justifiable because we were conditioned to leave that sense of presence, that gut instinct of being and that heart knowing and go to the head and run away from whatever is happening in the moment into the story about it. And then as we got accustomed to it, of course, that is almost like an addiction.

One could call it addiction because the flavors that mind is offering is so much more intense than just plain, blunt sort of a being. Then, of course, we want a more dramatic, more interesting, more pleasurable or unpleasant, whatever. Because sensations or stories, because it makes us feel alive and it distracts us from the sense of void or sense of unworthiness, which is a bi-pure. It's a bi-product of identifying or defining ourselves in the terms of mind as an object. So, that's how it comes about. So, now as an object, I'm inferior, I'm unworthy and now I need to sedate myself. I need to run away and distract myself from that unpleasant feeling.

So, I'll go and get myself busy with the movie in the head, with the stories completely changing one another. One after another. Because it feels kind of less painful for a moment. But for how long? So, now we kind of learn to distract ourselves continuously so much that I've seen people who were coming and listening to Bob Spiel a hundred times and they still didn't know why they were coming because there was nothing really that could actually take them a little bit above the stream of thought. It's just amazing. It's amazing the questions people ask after 20 years of coming here. It happens because the veil is so thick.

The distraction from that basic space, basic stillness is so intense. I was talking to a friend yesterday. She called. She was in trouble. She said it was such a gorgeous, beautiful, warm day and she was out in the park walking her dog. Sweet little dog. Sweet little schnauzer. Blue sky. Warm, nice, pleasurable air. And off she went. And she says, I can't appreciate it because everywhere I look there are these huge posters. You should be doing something productive. You unworthy. You don't deserve it. I say, okay. But who's reading them? Who is looking at them? Ah. Yeah, well. She may stop. She may pause for a moment.

For a minute. But we were on the phone for over an hour because they would come. They would stop for a minute. And then they would come from another corner. From another corner. And these things are so believable. They are so realistic that the one who is watching or the one who is aware of the content is completely buried under the heaviness of those statements. They say, I'm not going to do this. They're so heavy. Yeah it's like anxiety, depression. The shame that is almost suicidal. That's heavy. Now she was saying, okay. So now when you ask me a question, okay, I can see. I can actually see that they are not who I am because I'm looking from the distance at all these posters all around.

Yeah. Cool. But how long is she able to do it before the heaviness reaches back again? And, well, it just feels so real. It feels, well, of course. I mean, you know, if you take the conditioning, and she's over 50, so half a century of believing the story she had about herself. And now the thought like this comes up, and that thought has the emotional component. You know, when the thought, I'm unworthy, I don't deserve to be here, I don't deserve to be alive, you know. Of course, the cortisol runs through the body. It makes the fight-flight effect. All the blood goes out of the inner organs and the guts.

It goes to hands and legs, and she's ready to whatever. It's just the chemical reactions in the machinery, in the biocomputer. So it feels real. She says, I can feel it physically. Oh, absolutely, of course. And I gave her an example about the movie. I say, you know, when you are watching a movie that you really like, and there is a hero in the movie, and, well, she's a lady, so probably a lady. But if you could also think about the movie that you can identify with the hero of the movie, that you actually, when they run away, or they have a love story, or they are sad, you completely forget that you are watching it, and you are completely with the hero, with the character.

And. Gosh, don't you cry on the movie, or don't you get anxious when something is going to go wrong? There is no idea that I am watching this. It's just completely reflecting what is going on. And now, as she's watching it, I'm asking her, and this is a question worthy of contemplating on, that person in the movie, what can that person possibly do to wake up and become you, the one who's watching? Or maybe there's 10 million people watching at the same time. What? What that character can do to wake up and become you? Absolutely nothing. There is absolutely nothing the character can do to become the one who's sitting in the cinema.

And even the one who's sitting in front of the TV or in the cinema, can they wake up to become the emptiness? No way. It's impossible. The character is in an absolutely hopeless situation. There is nothing. There is nothing the character can do. The only way out of the character is to actually see that you have never even been in the character. That's the only way out, to realize that you're not in it. You think you are a person, you are a character, and you are getting running away from whatever villains or enemies. How can you run away from the TV? How can you jump off the TV screen and become the one who's sitting?

Ridiculous. Absurd. So that much. One can do to wake up. That much people who come here and listen and think, oh no, yeah, I'm not there yet. I didn't completely wake up yet, but a little bit more and I will wake up. No. That character can never ever wake up. Not in a million years. Not in a million satsangs. It is waking up from the character. And this is not happening by any doing of the character. So what is it? What is it? That the character can do in a situation like this. Like now, I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any mind.

And there is a body mind that is listening and thinking, yeah, all right. It makes sense. So what can I do? What? You're fucked. You're fucked. Absolutely. Totally. Yes. Accept it. If you accept it fully, that you can't jump off as the character of the TV screen. You can't. No matter what you can. There's just no way. If you accept that you fucked completely and fully, you give up. Whatever. Okay, fine. There's absolutely zilts I can do. Nothing. Relax. If it happens or it doesn't, it's nothing I can do. Zilts. Now, whatever is experienced through the character, by the character, is still going to be experienced.

It's still going to be happening. Pleasure, pain, interest, drama, whatever. But now, if you really, really prioritize. Yeah. Even as a character, if the character have the fantasy about waking up or have the fantasy about getting out of itself, which is a ridiculous fantasy. It can't happen. Never, ever. Yeah. But if there is that seeming last desire happening in the character that, yes, this is important. Yes, this is what I want. This is why I was born. Because this is earnestness of which Nisargadatta was saying. If this is that love for the truth in that seeming character, or if there is a pain, an exhaustion of suffering.

In this seeming character. Now the seeming character can seemingly surrender. You want to do something? Get out of the way. Surrender. Surrendering is not act. It's not an action. Surrendering is complete inaction. Like now I want to do anything. I'm ready to do anything. I'll do whatever. Like God tell me what to do. I'll do anything. And now the God says surrender. Do nothing. Absolute zilts. Nothing. You don't exist. The closest you get to non-existence is by doing nothing. Like if you want to do something, you want to be a doer. Well, good luck. Have fun. But if you really want to realize the truth of the spontaneous expression of life without any agency needed on the way, then just do nothing.

And let that life express as it does. Just see how it is already happening. See how the seeming is already happening. Nobody does it. Nobody does a see, the seeing. Nobody does the digestion. It's happening. Like yeah. Nobody grows the grass. It's happening. Nobody blows the wind. It's like the whole universe is making things happen. The life, the energy, the omnipotence? Omnipotence. The total power. power is expressing as every single thing in the world is replacing cells is is speaking is doing everything and now this omnipotence yeah just just see how it is already effort effortlessly so now as the individual you can't even see but if you're dreaming you can see just keep dreaming and see see how without the individual without any agency without anyone who would have any influence or any action life goes on how without any action or any involvement thoughts come up actions happen through the body there is nobody there who needs to look keep an eye on it control it or choose it or will it or wish it and it's already happening so really it is just to just to build up the conviction all of you have the conviction strong enough to know that the individual is a fiction you are not among this who come here and after hundred satsangs or 20 years still still don't quite get that there is about no self here all that talk yet there is no need for agency you know there is no need for agency now I think I heard you Robin saying before the satsang I just kind of was preparing vitamin C for Bob maybe you should drink it that you kind of build the evidence of yeah yeah tell us about it this is this is kind of a nice nice way of thinking you know it's just that's the way it seems to be to me is that like I see that the self is in the loop of the personal self is an illusion but I get locked back into it all the time but it seems that I'm seeing more and more evidence that shows that it's false so it's building up over time this evidence against it I mean that's how it seems to me to be what's happening I mean it it's a gradual process not all of a sudden thing but that's what seems to happen to me anyway but that's fantastic and that evidence if you could share the evidence that people watching there from somewhere from Europe I guess you know that that evidence may actually support their seeking too yeah I mean I have seen in my thoughts that the thoughts refer back to themselves and it self reinforces the idea of a separate entity in the way it refers back to itself and I mean you can see that pops up all the time and it just you can see it happening yeah you can see how it happens that you're being can you give us an example of a thought oh I don't know actually on the spur of the moment but no yeah because it's a thought.

yeah because it's a thought. yeah because it is really this is the whole gathering is really about now just exploring and helping each other to stabilize because everyone kind of get it that you know nobody's assuming that yeah oh yeah sure I'm leaving myself or I'm beating my heart no but now find the stabilizing this like really grow in the in in the certainty like dispel all the negative things that are happening in the world and I think that's a really good point. fits into your mind. the invitation for the you know for the right that the mind takes you know gosh I must have been dreaming because it kind of I remember when I was seeking it was the moments of absolute clarity and the next moment on shit there's nothing in it it's all dreamers all it's it's all nightmare and there is a me and the me is suffering and I can't wake up from it and it's just hopeless and then.

again opening. so this this moments when it kind of seems to like the the clouds seem to go away and you see a little bit of a sunlight and then the clouds cover it up again this is that this is that some sort of a transition period when you still think you are between the clouds and the Sun when you still when you don't really abide in the in in the certainty that you aren't between the clouds and the Sun you are the sky itself I mean what I seem to say to is I get the periods between thoughts are getting a lot bigger so I just sit there thinking what's in the time now it just happens and there's nothing you can do about it it just happens that way and it's not a problem is it no it's not boring or it's not this uncomfortable no so I find a lot now I can just listen to somebody talking without a thought process analyzing what's being said you just listen yeah and that seems to be look I think that to me is the communication between the I am to the I am that you are as well yes as it's going in past the thought process like it just goes in it's not going through a thought process at all so oh boy what a huge difference isn't it yeah because on the beginning that like initially when we communicate at least this is what I remember from communicating with people I was so preoccupied with what they're gonna you know how am I gonna respond to them what are they gonna think about me I would form the concept about the story that they are saying me there would be a lot of commentary going on a lot of guessing so I wouldn't really hear much of them because I would be just commenting all the time it wouldn't give them enough space like when you actually give completely space for listening it doesn't really matter there is no you in it so it doesn't matter how they what they're gonna think about you it just doesn't exist that that layer that veil doesn't exist anymore and the communication is effortless when I was doing a training course at work one time and I noticed I was thinking and in the thinking period I wasn't hearing what was being said so I was missing things you think well I do that all the time so you miss most of what the communication is because you're thinking about what they're time so you can't right so now that you're listening and you're just hearing you're just listening without interpreting you probably remember better too yeah that was an insight that I got back in in 87 when I realized that nobody ever people tell you you're not listening but they don't say what it is and what occurred to me is is it's simply just doing your best to understand the words you're setting just hearing what they're saying without interpreting or judging or saying this is right or wrong or good or bad or or I agree or disagree or thinking of your own stories or preparing a response or any of that because if I'm doing any of that if I'm interrupting it's proof that I wasn't listening I was listening to myself I have to listen to myself and interrupt you I think I just did that we do it all the time and that's what that's also what's happened what happens initially when people come here to the meetings and they they constantly they continually to the meetings and they constantly they live in the same way They're listening to Bob.

They believe they may be even desperate to hear what he says, but they're completely incapable of switching off their own commentary and of stopping to compare with what I heard before or what I knew before or does it really match or does it make sense? They can't. It's not a bad will or anything. It's just an automatic mechanical process that is going on. It takes a while before this process drops off and before we actually, it takes an art to be able to listen without that commentary, to listen with absolute curiosity, just completely open like Bob says, heart to heart. When you just leave that open space and anything, whatever comes is not commented, is welcomed with the curiosity.

So that's the art. That's the listening, what you Tonya was saying, where you don't really need words because you're not going to be arguing with them. You're not going to be arguing back anyway. So it's just, it's being receptive to the point. It's almost like, you know, like being a sponge that just complete the receptivity because there is, there is no fear anymore. There is no guard, no defenses anymore. Like when you are space. What do you need to defend? This listening, being space for listening, for hearing, it doesn't really need any sort of defenses. And that, you know, love for the truth can create that sort of a space spontaneously or acute suffering and desperation.

Like oh, it can't get any worse anymore. Like you know, I'm on the edge of the suicide. It's nothing. I have nothing to lose. That can create that sort of a receptivity also. Okay. So it may just spontaneously happen with the slow or fast process of ripening, which is again, not done by the individual. It happens or it doesn't. I love what you were saying. Cat analogy used to be about the TV character. I didn't either. I just came up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and the exact same analogy can be applied to the dreamed. You say your dreamed character. Yeah. In a dream when you're, when you're asleep dreaming.

Okay. And whilst you're, whilst you're asleep and you're dreaming the character like yourself in that dream, it seems very real and it can get affected by all sorts of things. It can experience fear. It can experience laughter, the whole gamut. Yeah. And the sitting here in this space. Yeah. And the me to wake up is exactly the same as the dreamed character whilst you're asleep and dreaming, expecting it to be able to experience what it's like to be awake when you wake up from the dream. Do you see that? I'm going to have to like chew on that a little bit. It's pretty. It's pretty.

So you're saying that this is like the dream in the dreaming. Yeah. It's like the dreaming character experiencing. Awakefulness while it's dreaming. I'm keep, look. Right. There's nothing, I'm not being tricky about what I'm saying at all. Just real, real straight. Okay. And I'm talking about the dream character that you experience when you're in your bed at night. Right. Sound asleep and dreaming. Right. Okay. There's a dream character in there. Okay. Uh huh. Okay. So you're awake and awake. Supposedly sitting in this room, the exact same principle applies, but the dreamed character whilst you're asleep. Okay. And dreaming is expecting like the me is here now is expecting to be able to awaken from that dream and know what it's like to be awake.

Now, I don't know about you, but when I wake up from that dream, just goes poof and it's gone. So the character in that dream can not know what it's like to be awake. It can't. Actually, I've been in a dream and realized that it's a dream. Yeah. Yeah. And what I've done is I've done lucid dreaming courses, and I had lucid dream experiences too. If you want to use that analogy, you have to imagine now you are a dream character and of course, there are dreams that everybody probably had once in life, at least psychology says so. When you're running away from someone and your legs are almost like you're going through the water, it's so hard and you will try to yell and the voice doesn't come out.

You are having a nightmare. And the dream character is already there. And in that nightmare, what is the chance that you remember that your body is lying on bed, asleep, not moving. You're running, your eyes are open, your dream character, your eyes are open, your ears are open, you are catching the breath. It's tragic. Now, how much do you remember about the peacefully sleeping body, corpse, under the blanket, feeling the pillow on the head? Zilz, I did lucid dreaming, yes. There is absolutely no recollection. Yes, there is no recollection of sleeping body. Imagine if you went, oh, this is, you know, realize. Yes, yes, I did lucid dreaming, I did realize, yes.

And so then, it all changes. You feel like you're still asleep. You are dreaming, you woke up. Correct. But you are, yes. When I realized I was in a dream. But what do you know about the sleeping body? Oh, I don't know anything. That's the point. That's the point. The analogy here, same as analogy with the character in the TV. You know how the character in the TV, the little body of that person, that actor that is running there, how is that character of that body realize that it has been created by the one who looks at it or the director? How is the character in the movie going to wake up to the director or a character even in a cartoon?

Wow. Wow. I suppose the director could write. Yeah, yeah, but. The director wakes up. Exactly. But it's not the character. It's the director writing it from zero. Like, imagine the character, actually the director is drawing a cartoon. Now you have this cartoon character drawn up the whole story that is waking up, getting a great enlightenment, but it's still written by the director. How is the character that is the little comic character? Going to realize the director that it has been written by someone. It's flat on the paper and there is someone in 3D writing about it. So lucid dreaming is absolutely wonderful experience, but as the analogy or the pointer in this particular situation, lucid dreaming would be to wake up as the character.

Let's say you have different, you don't have a nightmare. You have a nice kind of easy stroll through the forest or whatever. And you kind of remember in your dream that you are dreaming. Yeah. But you're still walking. But the dreaming body is not walking unless you kind of having walk around the house without knowing it. My ex-husband was doing it. But usually when you dream, you are walking or flying or having sex or whatever. The body lies flat on bed. So if you would want to transition from the character running in the dream to the flat body lying in bed, if you could include the flat body lying in bed.

In the character, that would be the analogy. Lucid dreaming is a different story. Lucid dreaming is just like you said, if there is a character in the movie and the director told the character to become holy or saint. Or the comic picture in the book that is achieved the enlightenment because the one who was drawing a comic has put that in the role. So lucid dreaming is just a little bit more kind of exciting. Yeah. Because the body is still dreaming. It's just the front lobe that is awakened. So there is a little bit of a memory sinking in from this character into the character in the dream.

But the awareness of the body is still the awareness of the dream body. The dream body is still looking while the body in bed has closed eyes. But then you're not. No. But see, if you wake up from the dream character to the body in the dream body, you are still awake. In the bed, which you are not either. But see what a big difference is completely like being in a flat land and waking up to 3D. And now if you are, because that's what Terry was pointing out. If you are waking up from the dream character to this person here, it's quite similar. Your relation with the dream character or the dream world is quite similar to the relation when you wake up from this.

And now, oh my God, the dream may be still going on, but now you are not. See, you're that whole world that you were strolling through the forest maybe at night. I've realized in a dream that nothing is reality. But see, I actually like this analogy because I did lucid dreaming and because I remembered thousands, sometimes eight, nine dreams per night. And I could see in the dreams different things. Yeah. Different universes, different orders. I had different bodies. I was different species. I was different sex. Now, this was a fantastic adventure, beautiful adventure. But this is still completely a dream. Now, I was going through 10,000 years old forest with huge trunks of the trees.

I was walking around pyramids. I was going in spaceships. Where are they? Where are they now? Where are they when you wake up? So, this is another face of the reality. The moment you wake up from making this world solid, very, very solid, and you realize, oh my gosh, there's nothing. It's just vibrating atoms, you know, energy moving. And the way we're looking reassures the existence of it. What a great idea. Yeah. It's a sign. Exactly. Exactly. It's completely lucid, liquid fluid. So, it's… If you want to use the analogies, they're beautiful. But we have to actually be very, very careful with the, you know, with the limitation of analogy.

Otherwise, we jump to wrong conclusions and we lost. But it's always good to verify and ask. And actually, the best thing, debate it. No, no, this is all wrong. Yeah, I'll show you. Please. Please. Yeah. Debate anything. Whatever we say here, debate it. Prove it wrong. Because that will do you good. And nobody's going to knock me. I'm a hopeless debater. Hmm? I'm a hopeless debater. Oh, that's a pity. It is. It's not. Yeah. It's the direct talking. Yeah. How about you? Joan, that that I was talking in relation to the dream character in the dream, yeah? So, our me's that are sitting in this room right now expecting enlightenment is exactly the same as the dream character in a dream expecting to be able to wake up and know what it's like to be awake and not dreaming anymore.

Do you get that? They don't know that. It's the same thing. I mean, there's a difference. The only difference from what I've come to understand between a sleeping dream and the waking dream is in the sleeping dream, there is no time and space. And in this waking dream, we have the appearance of time and space. Yeah. And we have the appearance of time and space. And we have the appearance of time and space. And we have the appearance of time and space. Right. Simple. But it's really, it's kind of. It's so much simpler than that. Yeah. It's so much simpler than that. Can you see the absurdity of the dreamed character in a dream whilst your body's lying on the bed asleep?

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Thinking while it's happening. Can you see the absurdity of that character wanting and expecting to be able to experience being awake? Mm. Up off the bed? No, generally not. The dream character's not even real. Yeah. It's no, it's fiction. And the else has no idea that it's dreaming most of the time. Unless we're talking about the lucid dream. It's fiction. That's the point. It's a lucid dream as well. The lucid dream as well. Right. That's the point. That's the point that I'm making. Okay. And the other thing, too, is I want you to consider this, alright? When you're asleep. you're asleep on the bed and you're dreaming and somebody comes in the room to wake you up who do you think they're speaking to the character in the dream or the presence in the body that's lying on the bed the presence in the body that's lying on the bed hallelujah now when bob says i'm not speaking to anybody that's exactly what he's talking about he's right he's speaking to the presence in the body that's sitting in the chair if you want if you want to slam it into a body okay if you want to slam it into a body yeah okay you can do that okay but wanted to say something you're dreaming a dream you call the world and stop looking for ways out and that's what we're doing this is a dream we don't realize it when we're looking for ways out we're going to become enlightened he says the dream is not your concern your concern is that you love one part and not another and trying to get out who's trying to get out the dreamed up character that thinks it's going to jerry says he's going to wake up love one part of that says leave love all of it or none of it don't try and get out of it no and the rest will be done for you by that same essence that formed the body formed the dream formed everything else that's looking after you right now but i think we're going to become enlightened in this dream when we come realized come enlightened come happy i wonder why it doesn't happen because this isn't the dream as well and there's no one to become enlightened well again going back to the dream character getting that been pointed out there but there isn't going to do anything so what's been spoken to not julie julie is just unable not not the nothing not personality not the mind not the story it's a it's an absolute dreamed character same as in the dream that's why i keep using that analogy okay now if you can see the absurdity of the character in your dream when you're asleep somehow when the body awakes that dreamed character is going to know what it's like to be awake you must be able to see the absurdity in that it's a dream character right apply the exact same thing to this jeweler that you think is sitting in the chair and travels here and has got kids and does this and is coming to bobs and trying to seek and trying to learn writing books and all that stuff is the dreamed character all of it yes right so there's no body or there's no persons or personal self that arrives here in this room and gets to listen to bob and gets anything nothing right okay and what bob's talking to is that sense of presence that awareness and until we see that we think he's talking to me and there is no me right and this that's that's why it gets it can get really really kind of you wrestle with it you literally you wrestle with it until you actually see and if you can see the simplicity of that analogy that i'm using or pointing to in relation to the dreamed character in your sleep when you are dreaming and that character in that dream expecting to be able to wake up from that dream and know what it's like to be awake the character just goes poof and it's gone sometimes sometimes as cat has shared sometimes the character that you're dreaming in the dream for for you let's say is a male you're a male in the dream like hello so that male character in the dream can wake up unknow what it's like to be awake soon as you wake up from that dream as soon as you wake up from that dream it completely loses its power and its reality and dis and disappears you know what it was thankful for that that was just a dream now wake up from this one because the exact same and i'm an exact same thing is happening the sleeping dream and the wakening dream I just want to know I just want to know if you're feeling embarrassed right that's that's in the dream that's just in the dream it'll be like the character in your dream experiencing embarrassment so Julie Julia Julia I always call you Julie just don't call me yeah yeah yeah that that's been spoken to and that that awakens is that oneness not you okay and that oneness you call it oneness karma that oneness is completely 100 responsible for dreaming you you yes so it's that oneness that is being spoken to that awakens to itself that presence that awareness of you my god my house you know you have to go myself and when I saw what it's all about we're all seeking self-liberation self-realization self-realization self-realization understanding but we've taken this personal self to be real and there never was a personal so it's that self that is realized it's that self is liberated that's that self that is knowing it's the one self expressing is everything can you be anything other than that I feel kind of dumb every time I do yeah now now how does that feeling come to you?

I'm hesitant to say anything because I feel kind of dumb every time I do yeah now now how does that feeling come to you? I can sense where that feeling comes come to me oh that is I did That's nice you're right and what about you feel dumb you're leaning in, you know, and, and at the same time, not you doing anything to help you when you think you have everything you can think about the people who are not as good at you work with them and they chase you like they really don't have the power to help you if they give you something that can separate you I get to experience that that all the things that people even let them feel that way like they tell me that I didn't know I'm not different than you, you know, that's just yoga if you don't get it in the first place, then fine oh my god so now I see the power to do what I love.

Even if you lost those things, you know, your life has changed. actor and you are the one who is knowing about it you are the knowingness about the embarrassment and about the shame or dumbness or whatever and this doesn't touch you who you are it's not embarrassing it's not dumb you are the pure knowing a wearing consciousness and Julia is none of your concern it doesn't matter that Julia looks better or smarter or wiser than Robin or anyone else no it doesn't because Robin and Julia are all within you week and a half ago I was in a courthouse in New York and there was some drama going on and I felt good that I was able to as it was all happening to be able to sit and watch the play unfold yeah but not be yeah the player okay so to make sure that you are aware of what is happening and what is not okay and to make sure that you are aware of what is happening and what is not okay and to make sure that you are aware of what is happening and what is not okay and to any I mean I feel like I any I mean I feel like I any I mean I feel like I there's you know I mean like I have that there's you know I mean like I have that there's you know I mean like I have that experience I was able to do that in the experience I was able to do that in the experience I was able to do that in the moment and it was dramatic okay because moment and it was dramatic okay because moment and it was dramatic okay because if you want to get into dramatic stories if you want to get into dramatic stories if you want to get into dramatic stories there was lawyers saying that's not true there was lawyers saying that's not true there was lawyers saying that's not true and it was dramatic and I was just like wow, this is dramatic, you know, and be able to see it there instead of going into the story world of saying oh my god this is happening to me and all.

So this has happened before having said that to nobody of course it's not happening to anybody and I feel like I have an understanding that there's absolutely nobody here it never has been there was a thought there was a me and I thought there was a me and I believed there was me I believed I was this, this body mind entity and, and, and I know I'm not and I feel like for the most part I absolutely know there's, there is that that's just a story, it's a thought and that's, it's not what I am, it's just a thought that comes up, right? Wonderful. And then something like, do you remember back in November when I was in Russia Mm-hmm.

Yes. And I thought before I went to Russia, I thought, I got this down. I know this non-duality stuff. There's no me. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And then I go with Patch, and I get upset because I was offended. He's judging you. There was a judgment, and I was being judged, okay? And I noticed it later, you know, that there was some selfing happening. But in the moment, I didn't realize. And I thought before that, oh, I got this down. I feel like, okay, I might think I have this down. But who has this down? Nobody. There's nobody to have any of this down.

And I thought earlier, I mean, as you were talking, you were saying to me, so how is this different from Bob? There's no difference. That would have been maybe a better answer to say he's got more experience. There is no him, and there's no me, okay? This is all a story, so there is no difference, okay? But see, the problem isn't the best answer. Yes, the answer would be better if you would say that. That was like coming up in the moment spontaneously. Yeah, exactly. It would be kind of more correct. But who cares what is correct or what's not correct, you know? This is about being completely practical about it.

If there is any selfing going on, it means the investigation has to go on. And if I say I've got it done, I've got it right, I understand it, but the investigation needs to keep happening. And I do that every time I catch myself saying I've got it, because I realise there's a me to get it. Exactly. And if there's a me to get it, then I don't get it. That's right. I'm fucked. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That's it. If you don't get it, what question are you? I'm nothing. If there's nothing, there's nothing to get. Why put the nothing on it? Let me think about this first.

Why put the nothing on it? You are, aren't you? I am, but I'm also everything. You are, I am nothing. I am that. Yes. It's not nothing or nobody. I am that. What's that mean? I'm everything. Yes, a totality. I'm a totality. We'll start from that. How far can you go from that? Can't be any more than that. No, but before we can't be. We'll realise that before that we're trying to become something. Becoming is not being. Before I met you, I was talking to a guy named Robert Wolf. Who was another non-duality teacher. And he said to me, you seem to have down that you're everything.

What you need to do is see that you're nothing. You need to die before you die. Okay. So I was like, yeah, alright. The metaphor that you use of intelligence energy for me has been tremendous. To see that I'm everything. That I'm the totality. Because if we strip that down, it really fits in with my idea. Or the one that I'd learned somewhere. It wasn't my idea. It fit in with the idea of truth is that which never changes. And what's never changed is the stillness between the movement. And that intelligence energy that I am. That you are. That everything, this chair, everything is. And that's how I'm everything.

I'm the totality. Notice how you fit ideas. Because this is non-conceptual. I know, but I love this concept. I know. There's no me to love it. It's just the experience of the full stop. So as long as you got... The experience of the full stop, even if chatter's happening, that's it. That is the experience of that. That's it. Yeah. Julie, where are you stuck? Where am I stuck? It's Julia, Terry. Oh, God. Thank you, Julia. Just don't call me early in the morning. Where are you stuck? You tell me. No, no. You tell me. Where am I stuck? Where are you? Like, you've got the patter down.

Okay. You got the patter down. Okay? Yeah. But you'll be the first to acknowledge. I'm still dreaming. I'm not awake. The only thing that I feel like... If you want me to answer that question, the only place where I feel like I'm still stuck is there's a shitload of thoughts still happening. Okay? A lot, a lot, a lot. And I will do my best frequently. Not all as... Whenever the thought comes up, it has to come up in order for me to remember to do that. But just to be without a thought and drive my car without... the constant chit-chat. Not to let the chit-chat fall away.

And then a fucking thought will come up again. And I'll see that thought and then often follow that train of thought. There's not me doing any of this. Never has been. And then it's not me remembering to just be quiet. And there's not me understanding of this. And it feels like that to you, right? It just feels bang. You came out of nowhere. It feels like it just came, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you are walking a lot of talk. You're talking, but people might not be getting that. What? You are experiencing it just like nothing. But people might interpret you, are you just saying that?

But, you know, if you are... Well, that's popped out of nowhere. You are experiencing it too. And I think people can often have a filter of just, oh, that sounds heady. That's just from the head. So I'm just saying that, yeah, it sounds like... There were lots of moments where, well, yeah, but just, yeah, it really does feel to you like a number of times, it's just happening. Yeah. That's great. That's one of the its, yeah. So then if you ask where I'm stuck, that's it. It's just that I feel like okay, well, there's nothing I can do. Right? I'm fucked. Right? There's no me.

I've never done anything. I'm not the one coming up with the thoughts and I'm not the one stopping the thoughts. Okay? Nobody. It's not... It's everybody. It's everything. Everything's doing it and nothing's doing it. It's the intelligence energy that's doing everything, always has. And what's the intelligence energy breaking it down? If we break it down, it's the stillness and the emptiness and the quiet and the space and the beingness without a word, before the words. What is energy? Energy. What's it? It's a vibration. Oh, yeah. It's an activity. Right. And what's the intelligence? It's knowing. Knowing. The activity of knowing. Isn't that going on right now?

Yes. Always? Always. Wow. Cut. That's it. Yeah. Intelligence coming. Not knowing is a form of knowing. You're knowing that you're not knowing. Yes. Knowing is happening all the time. There can be an awareness of knowing. That thinking's going on. Different from not knowing that it's going on. No. You're just lost in it. But there can arise a knowing that, shit, thinking. Look at all this thinking. An awareness that the thinking is. Without a need to stop it, there can just arise an awareness of it. And to me, well, who doesn't exist, that's a different feeling state. The different feeling state. That when there's an awareness of bloody hell, look what my mind's been doing.

Without necessarily thinking, I should have stopped all that. And then there's a way full stop where there's just nothing about anything. Full stop. Yeah, that's the best. Nothing about anything. Full stop. Don't go there. Not even don't go there. It's just nothing about anything. No thinking. So nothing is made of anything. And it's clear as a bell. No matter how short it is, nothing was made of anything. It's just the activity of knowing. Because nothing's come to mind. Because there's been nothing processed. It doesn't come to mind. The activity of knowing. Nothing can come to mind. Nothing just comes to mind because there's been no process.

And it's not a logical thought about there's been no process. It's just clear. There's nothing arising up to be said. Julie, I heard where you're stuck. Uh-oh. I heard where you're stuck. Because you're still talking from it. From that sense of me. Right. But I heard it. I hope you hear it when you, if you get the opportunity to listen to this back. Yeah. OK? There's still a Julie there that is observing thoughts, observing action, observing non-action, observing understanding, observing getting it, not getting it. Observing a busy mind. Right. So what you're still doing is you're still looking at all the content, which includes knowledge of this understanding, as opposed to going deeper because it's much closer.

That little me that's there is much closer. And I just heard it speaking. I heard it speaking. That false sense of me, I just heard it speaking. When you hear this back, you should be able to see it and hear it. And then I'll be really embarrassed later. OK, so my experience, I went through the same shit. Exactly the same. Like exactly the same. And you know, I got to be able to, you know, even if I was questioned, you know, it was like I could give the pattern, could totally give it. Of course I'm nothing. Of course I can see I'm not the body.

Of course I know I'm everything. Right. Of course I know I'm nothing. Right. You know? Right. I know I'm not here. I know Julie's not doing anything. Right. Right. But there was always still an I there making all those statements. Right. That's the me. Right. That you need to find. It's really close, Julie. It's really close. You're still looking in or at the basic screen of thought that all the content appears in. You're still there. But there's still a Julie there that's seeing all that. Because. If that Julie wasn't Julia. Julia. If that Julia wasn't there and aware of all that, you'd be awake, completely awake.

So what I'm trying to say is it's. Is she there when she's not thinking? No. So what I'm trying to say is it's really, really, really close. In my experience, I got used to seeing the image of Julie and I was like, oh, she's there. Yeah, it's probably just me. And I got used to seeing the content of thought that would happen for Terry. I got used to seeing that. And part of that content that I was seeing and was aware of was even answers to stuff I'd heard in relation to non-duality. All that was in there. What was also in there? you're useless, you'll never get this low self-esteem stuff, victim stuff, shame stuff.

That was also in the content. Yeah? And all that content was still referring to a supposed me... Who's going to get it or not get it. ..that's present. And the difference... I'm trying to describe the difference, OK, between being aware of all the content of thought, OK, and that tight, contracted sense of me that still seems to be there. Even though I know all this shit. I know I'm nothing, I know I'm not, la-la-la-la-la-la, but the truth is I still feel like I'm here. What I noticed for myself was that really, really, really close, that really close sense of me that... The dialogue that used to happen from that really close sense of me didn't appear in the content.

It appeared kind of back here. And I didn't notice it. I wasn't aware of it. It wasn't until I really saw what was going on. I saw what was going on. Then I went, OK, you little fucker, where are you? Like, seriously, where are you? I had to look. Where are you? I know you're not in there. I know you're not in all the content, all those thoughts and all that noise and conditioning and ideas and beliefs. I know you're not in there. After all, I know you're not in there because I'm aware of all that. What you are you looking for, though, when you're talking about that?

Biggie button. Which you are you looking for when you're talking about that? That that believed it was aware of content. The witness. The witness. So instead of the witnessing, it was the witness. And then the content. Yeah. And there's still a little fucker. Correct. And this and this and this still is still Julia. There's still a witness there. And what I'm trying to point out at the moment is it's look, it's a natural process to kind of filter out and and sell the content and get to understand all the experiences and all the memories and the belief systems. And. And all the stuff in relation to this so-called me.

And can I say something to that? I heard this great story last night and it was just about, you know, the cliffs of war, you know, or the or the beautiful cliffs that you see a cliff face, right? And years and years and years, the cliff faces eroded by wind and rain and the ocean crashing. And and you see that some of the cliff falls off a little bit. And a bit more falls off a little bit. Bit more falls off a little bit. Millions of years later, all of a sudden, the cliff just goes bang into the sea. Right. And that's sort of what happens with the me.

Nothing you can do. Nothing you can do. It just goes. It just goes bang. So that's that's right now where I'm a little bit. You have to do it. I just said the difference between the witness and witnessing. OK. Absolutely. It's witnessing going on. No. No. We've saw butts about that. But there's nobody to witness. Yeah. But yes. Yes. But you haven't seen that saying it from a concept. You just. You just. You just haven't had a said yes. You haven't had a. You haven't had a close enough. Look, I need because we all did it too. Yeah. That's why we're saying yes. And we all did that too.

that too and you have to under you have to try and look for that really close tight personal me try and look for where does the dialogue where is the dialogue of it you start you should start to become aware that it's much closer it's much closer than the content of thought right the way the breath that's how close it is we don't even know that we're not even aware of it Julia whether we're not even aware of it when I started to become aware of it it's like whoa okay why didn't I see that in the first fucking place why did I have to go through all this other shit to finally get to our there it is yeah why yeah who cares doesn't matter it was more it was more around a curiosity that came up it's like more like how the fuck did I miss that how did I miss that and the reason I miss it is because so close yeah why should it take the infinite long to find the infinite there's no such thing as time when it happens it's all gone it's just a dream so that's that's just a concept it's just a concept that just floated through then are you I should have never forgotten if I'm infinite I should have just already known that no no no no no no Julia you're being dreamed so that by the infinite so the infinite can experience the so-called Julia well wouldn't you want to absolutely absolutely now here's the thing here's the thing I already am I know I already am experiencing this that what Julia yeah yeah yeah cat and Bob Jane Rob Tony Tony Chris the whole universe appears in you you are the awareness if there's only one if there's only one you know like come on if there's only one there's no room for you I'm sorry for me there's no room and this is about non duality which means one without a second if you like it's about that so this is all just an allude it's all just an illusion you're gonna say something Bob even the idea of a witness and witnessing a illusion do yeah what's the witness what's the witness you got in there hanging on you often talk about knowing you say is anyone here not seeing or hearing and we all are and so I think you're suggesting there is knowing kind of knowing that you are I guess what people are saying is that is completely different from witnessing the thought is that right what one has thought going on and the knowing that is no thought is that right well you put a thought on it and the concept is important but knowing is just the same as a wearing down right and you put the label witness on if you like but there's no witness on it no right just more labels or questions coming up about anything because there's no meaning making happening the answer only comes up or is realized when you're absent when you're seeing to be what you actually are that's right and it's all right you know for the questions yeah to totally totally right but some of them can't be answered can't it's like bob uses an analogy that's like no question can't be answered yes that's right that's correct absolutely I can sit here and describe to you all day what it's like to sip a glass of water, and if you've never sipped that glass of water, I can give you thousands.

I can sit here for the next six years trying to describe to you what water tastes like, but until you sip it, all you're going to have is just my conceptual idea of it that I'm trying to impart to you. Having said that, Terry's concept of no room can actually be experienced. A sensation's coming up, then another one, then another one, then another one, and nothing happens, no meaning happens about anything that just happened in the moment before. It doesn't. There's just no room for you in there. There's no room for anything because no meaning happened. Just another thing came, another thing came. For me, it's just in and out, in and out, in and out.

So in that whole thing just then, mostly, there was one thing that was happening, and then another thing came, and then another thing came. There was one moment where a meaning did happen, a tiny, quick one, and a whole bunch where nothing happened. No meaning making happened. It's just like, so in and out, in and out, in and out here. So it doesn't have to be just the big bang. It can be the little incredible, it can be different. But at the end of the day, nothing's made of the moment before. No assessment, commentary, comparison, nothing occurs to make anything of it. No processing happens.

Then you do just get the experience, experience, experience, and there's no room for any kind of conceptual thing because it's just not showing. Beautiful. Beautiful. And it's also very important to actually be able to acknowledge that moment because this is really when you build up the confidence, when you realize that most of the time, most of the time, there is really nobody there. Yeah. There's nobody there when you are sleeping and not dreaming. There's nobody there when you are cooking or when you are busy reading book, watching TV, driving car, whatever. The I comes usually with the problem. It gives itself away in a funny way.

Ah, yeah, it fits in with my definition. Oh, yeah, yeah. I like this. I don't like this one. This explanation is good. This is kind of like what Xinxin Ming says. The preferences hold no preferences. They come up and they give away that me a little bit. But if it is recognized right away, there is no me in it. It's just a preference, just blunt, dead preference. But when there is an investment, that little fetter, that little flavor, extra flavor of being personal, being mine, being separate, like dear to my heart, that is when that is when that seeming individual is hiding. But the moment it is recognized that, oh, yeah, wow, that felt personal.

Yeah. Like, you know, all the answers and they go so quickly. I'm nothing. I'm everything. I'm that. I'm that. You know, I'm totality. You know, whatever Bob says, you know all the answers. And now brilliant, beautiful. But really, the knowing doesn't really need the answers. It doesn't have questions. It doesn't need reassurance. It's not an exam. Like, you know, if somebody asks you questions and that the feeling comes in like, oh, yeah, I've got to give them the right answer. Otherwise they will despise me or they will think bad of me or I will disappoint them. I don't want to do that. You know, I want them to like me.

Oh, I'm stupid. Yeah, I want them to like me. And especially Bob. I don't want to disappoint Bob. Of course, I'm going to drop all these answers at him because I know I'm going to use his words because then he'll be happy. No, he won't. He will be. He. He. He. He won't because he will hear the frequency of the exam. Yes, you are a student. You're the best. You're brilliant because you're intelligent and you're sweet and you're loving and you. Oh, gosh, we love you beyond measure. But yes, we love you beyond measure. And that's why he wants to slap you in the face occasionally because in that love he knows there is further to go.

You don't want to. He doesn't want you to be an A student because that's really. He wants me to graduate. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to graduate too. Yeah. So just, you know, like, don't be afraid of disappointing him. I'm talking, aren't I? Yeah. I'm taking a chance. Yeah. And I'm probably going to disappoint. And you might slap me across the face. Oh, great. But I'll keep coming back for more. Yeah. Ernest. Ernest. Yeah. Beautiful. Cool. And you're going to be loved because we know who you are. We don't really know. We don't really see Julia anymore because, well, we see the character.

It's a beautiful character. It's a sweet character because, you know, they are nasty characters too. Being, knowing, and loving to be. Can you separate the being from the knowing or the knowing from the being? And in those two there is a love of being and a blessing of being. That's such an . And that's what I tell you. I love you. I love you. I am that. That is what you are. Stop being right now. Yes. Stop knowing right now. And don't you love to be right now? I'll shout loud. I am that already. I am that. Yes. I couldn't be anything but that. Yeah.

That's right. There's nothing other than that. That's the tripod. That's the camera for the phone. That's you. That's me. It's all that we put labels on which we've learned are required. Yes, there is a logic, you know, the way Bob is explaining it. That's the tripod, that's the camera, everything is that. We could see logically that in our language, yes, that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I get it. It makes sense. But again, logic can be helpful in the beginning. But this is really not about logic. The knowing. This is pre-knowing. This is what I am before the words, before the thought, before the I.

That's what I am before anything. And without the logic, even if it wasn't logical. I got me getting closer. I got it now. Instead of all those things, if you just go that, that, that, that, that, you just got the experience of that. There's no room for anything to be made of it because you're so busy going that, that, that, that, and feeling what it's like. Julie. Yeah, that's cool. See what it's like. Try and give this a shot. All right? See what it's like when you only give an answer to something that you know you're not going to get. See what it's like when you only give an answer to something that you know you're not going to get.

You know to be an absolute fact. And anything that you don't know to be an absolute fact, say, I don't know. Oh, I'm really good at that. Really? You're saying I don't know? Well, you're really good at giving all the right answers. Really good at that. I'm also good at saying I don't know. What are you? Good, good. Just answer that one. What are you? My point, yeah. Yeah, try it. What am I? What are you? Yes. I don't know. Because you've already given a few answers to it. Now you're giving the right answer. Now you're giving the true answer. Now you're being honest. Yes.

Now you're being real. You're not everything. You're not nothing. You're not that. You're not the absolute. You're not the totality. Those are all labels. You're none of it. You don't know. I don't know. Bob doesn't know. Terry doesn't know. We all not know. We have no fucking clue what we are. You stopped thinking. You basically stopped thinking. That's what you did. You stopped thinking. You stopped making anything of anything. Yeah. You said, whilst you're giving all the right answers, whilst you're giving all the right answers, and yet you still actually really don't know, you're going to try and look for other answers. You're going to think there's something I've missed.

As opposed to just being with, I don't fucking know. Do you know you're not the body? Yeah. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. See what I mean? Yeah? Yeah? At least you can see sometimes. Well, you know, I feel like at least I've had that experience of, no, man, like when I saw my father's corpse. Honey, Julia. That's proof. Julia. How said that? Julia, it's a pointer. I'm just pointing. Don't take it absolutely literally what I'm saying. Okay. Okay? Okay. But come back to what you actually really know. Not the correct answers. Please. Not the correct answers. It will get you. No, you'll just fucking spin around and around and around and around, and you'll stay in the same spot.

I'm telling you. The only thing I can know is just that I am. There you go. Good enough. Yeah. And what do you do then? B. What does that involve? See how much simpler it gets. Can you see how much simpler it gets? And how much closer you actually are to the truth. When you talk from your current direct experience, then it's real. All the other stuff is fluff, man. Story. It's just fluff. And it's okay. Because the fact is, everyone goes through that. It's okay. You went through that, Bob? Pardon? You went through that? I drew everything. More than once. And eventually, isn't there a knowing that you don't know?

Yeah. Damn, thanks. When you say, I don't know, you must prove that knowing the fear of nature is a sign. Yeah. You have to know to not know. Yeah. Well, that's being, knowing, and having to be again. It's the same, isn't it? It's so beautiful not knowing, Julia. It's so beautiful. It is. Given all the, you know, it's just so fucking liberating. When you come to, I don't know. And that's totally all right. And you know what? At least I know that I don't know. Oh. And I don't need to know. And I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Because who needs to know? Just for you and the experience that I've had with you and when we've been alone, also, all I would be pointing at at this point in time is to just be real.

What I mean by that is be honest. Really, really fucking honest. If you don't know, so you don't fucking know. You know, it's one thing to sit here and say, yeah, I know I'm not the body. If you don't fucking know that, you're stuck. You're going to stay stuck. You will absolutely stay stuck. You get me? You've got to know. You've got to know. You have to have seen. Then you can say that, yeah, I'm not the body. You understand? It's got to be from your direct experience. Otherwise. You'll stay stuck. I guarantee it. You'll stay stuck. And then generally what happens if that occurs, you'll experience some pretty deep, shitty fucking pain somewhere along the way.

And that pain might just be associated with I've been doing this for so long and I just can't fucking get it. And that can be painful. If you do it long enough, that could be painful. You don't have to go. You don't have to go down there. You really don't have to go down there. Just start being fucking honest. And I'm not saying for one second. I'm not talking to Julia. I'm not saying that Julia is a dishonest person. I'm so not. I think you'd be extraordinarily honest. But I'm talking about self honesty. Not what comes out of your mouth in relation to others and your behavior and how you're acting, your morals and ethics.

I'm not talking about that. At all. I'm talking about your direct, your direct experience. Get honest. And if you do that and you reside there, when you do get a chance to spend time with Bob, he'll be able to get through. Because you're showing who you are. You're showing. Rather than fluffing it all over with, yeah, I know I'm not this. I know I'm not that. I know I'm that. And I know I am that. There's nowhere to go. Do you understand? Yeah. You with me? I'm doing my best. Cool. That's honest. That's honest. You've got to come back to that. You've really, really got to come back to that.

Have to come back to that. Otherwise, you'll stay stuck. This feels like an intervention. Well, I don't, I don't mean. Like a whole room jumping on. Yeah, I don't. How wonderful. You must be really loved. Feels a bit like an assault. Just, just. Feels like an assault. Just, just, just assume. That's what I mean. Just assume that this is exactly what needed to happen. Just go with that. I know that. Yeah. That, that's something I really have a, I have, or in my experience, nothing could be different than what it is. Beautiful. It can't. It can't be. So, so it's not an intervention. It's not an assault.

It's not an attack. It's not an attack. It's not an attack. No, but it's just like, it's just kind of like I was saying. It's just. It's purely a point of. No, but it's beautiful. Yeah. And, and I'm grateful. Yeah. And I love you all. And this is what's bringing, this is what brings me back here is like I'm in this room full of Buddhas. And I'm one of you. I love you all so much. You had the whole room jumping on you. Could you kill this? No. And then, let you let Patch put all the shit on you and believe that it's real. Sorry?

Then you let Patch put all the shit on you. Yeah. And then you let Patch put all the shit on you. And then you let Patch put all the shit on you. And then you let Patch put all the shit on you. And you believed it for all. Yeah, I did. I did. That was, that was a year ago. Yeah. Well, you've changed. I think I've grown a little since then. I hope. Definitely. Definitely. Absolutely. I wouldn't have said what, what just came out of me wouldn't have come out otherwise. No way. No way. You kind of need to hear this. You, you need to hear this.

Because you're just going to, you're just going to get stuck. No, it's good that we're recording this so I can like listen to it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and Julia, I'm speaking from my own experience and because I'm speaking from my own experience, it's really, really easy for me to see it happening in someone else. That's right. So easy. I go, yep, know that. Do you understand? Yeah. So it's okay. Like it's totally okay. In fact, it's awesome. It is. Perfect. Yeah. It's perfect. It's perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And that's been my experience at least lately, like even the drama with the courtroom, you know, like it's all perfect, you know?

My, my crazy relatives are relative. I won't mention names. Okay. They're not, they're not. It's perfect, especially not the camera. my my crazy self or whatever whatever this this dreaming is perfect just watch just on that just really quickly just don't know okay try and see this um describe yourself to me describe it what do you mean what comes up describe yourself that's what came up because I don't know what you mean by describing myself so like you my ultimate self or describe Julia I can't describe the ultimate self but Julia I could give you lots of descriptions Julia is Julia yourself Julia is not myself there is no Julia there is no Julia there is no Julia there is no Julia Julia doesn't have a self.

Julia is a memory. I mean, do you have that in yourself? And what you said about the ultimate self, you're right. You can't describe that. Totally cannot. You cannot describe that. But generally when you ask somebody, Robert had the experience of that, when you ask somebody, describe yourself. They go, oh, well, you know, my name's Blah. I was born such and such a time. Went to such and such a school. Couple of kids. Married twice, ten times. Whatever the case may be. That's not the question I asked. Try and discern the difference. Describe yourself. This me-self that you believe yourself to be. Describe the self.

Describe it. What time is it? Yes, overtime. Oh, OK. Overtime, yes. Oh, OK. Sure. Well, OK. Maybe. The end of the road is deadline. Yes. Maybe I'll drop the self next time. Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. Maybe it'll happen tonight.