This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original: watch on YouTube.
There's Max coming these days. Is he? Yeah, he's doing alright. He was through. You wanna say something? Pardon? You wanna say something? An introduction or whatever? You want an introduction? Yeah! Well, cat's taking over tonight. I'm having a rest. I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any monk. Come on, you. What looks next? I'm talking to that I am that I am. Do you really understand it? Do I really understand it? Yeah, I think so. So why don't you just stick to one pointer until everyone understands it. Okay, which pointer? I don't know. Just pick one. That's all. There is nobody here to talk to.
You are not talking to anybody, you are not talking to anyone. I am talking to that I am, that I am, which is the intelligence energy and the nothingness and the everything that I am, which is you too. So how well do you know about it? You are being interviewed now. I am being interviewed. How well do you know it? Do you know it as well as Bob? No, no I don't. That's why I like to hear him talk. So what is the difference between his knowing and your knowing? He's much more experienced. And I think that there's still some storying happening, which to me means that if there's storying happening, there's an identification of an eye that has a story.
I am sorry. I could be wrong, but it happens once a year, you know. Today could be the day. Sorry? Who is this myself? There is no self to identify, but there does appear to be identifying sometimes, I suppose. Why? Why lock into the appearance? I Am the One I would love to hear... I'm going well enough. I don't have to tell anybody anything. I'm right. Yeah, but you kind of happen to be doing it for most of your life, so it means that... Yeah, that I'm quite safe where I am. That you care, you know, you care. You're so good at it. What am I talking about?
What am I telling you? And everybody is that. Why aren't you going to? Why rely on me? I'm still going on. Go on. Okay, so if you really hear that there is a... How do you say? I'm not speaking to anybody, I'm not speaking to any mind. One way to look at this is see if you are the body or the mind. Because this is not who is he speaking to. So if the body hears that, can actually body hear anything if the mind is off? Like can the body hear anything if you are in coma or your brain death? You can't even say what is hearing or if it is hearing.
Although I've heard people say that when they're in comas they do have memories and stuff like that. Yeah, memories, yeah, sure, maybe. But the body itself doesn't really hear. When the body is dead, it's still there. It's not hearing. Now what is the mind? Can the mind hear at all? The mind is a stream of thought. The thought, the mind can't even hear. It needs the ears. So can the body-mind actually, body-mind hear? Because if it can, that's fantastic. I Am is not what he is talking to. If the body-mind can hear something, or the entity or the individual that you believe yourself to be, if that can hear, okay, let it hear.
But Bob is not speaking to that one. He's speaking to something else, something beside, beyond, above, whatever, something else. Not the body-mind. So if there is an individual or a body-mind listening, let it be. Just ignore it. But there is something else that is meant to hear it. Does it understand words? This other thing? You tell me. I'd imagine it wouldn't. Yes, so this something else is expressing, this emptiness is expressing as forms, It is expressing as a biocomputer, as a radio, as clouds, as volcanoes, as cats, dogs. So it has every possible capacity through its expression. But without the body, obviously, it doesn't really have even the capacity of hearing physical words.
But is it really the words that are being conveyed or transmitted Because there is something about resonance not necessarily words There was a guy who used to come here the Japanese guy Translated or Transmitted Because something beyond the body-mind is a limitation of the language. There is not a thing. It is not that when Bob says, I'm talking to the I am that I am, or to consciousness, or to sense of presence. Is that sense a thing? Can you grab it? Can you define the limits of that thing? You can't, so it's not really a thing. But because the language doesn't really, you know, We didn't develop vocabulary to communicate it in any better way.
So this is the point. The body-mind, if it hears it, let it hear it, let it play with it. The mind will take it for a trip, will twist it, will interpret it, will have a story about it. Doesn't matter, let it be. Let it be the background, the commentary under the movie or subtitles, whatever. It doesn't matter. So whether there is a mind understanding, grasping, getting it, doesn't matter. Because it's not the mind that is supposed to wake up. It's not, well, that one is not really asleep. The one is not even a one. So it is, the conversation is from oneself to oneself.
It's just the one life essence expressing through this body and through that body. And the conversation is that very life essence, the awareness of presence or the knowing that you are, communicating with the same knowing that is everywhere, that is not separated from anything. Now, because the words, you know, that's how the computer is being programmed, the words are being used, words are really just a medium to transmit the proper frequency of that certainty of being. Because the certainty of being, everyone is certain that they are. They know that they are. But nobody pays attention, nobody cares. So the whole attention is completely distorted into the appearance, into the illusion, into a dream.
The pleasures, the senses, the stories in the head. So the being is there, it's unobscured, it can't be touched. Is there as much Julia's being or your being is as evident and as certain as Bob's being? There is no difference. So where is the difference now? If Bob is, he has absolute certainty that that very sense of presence or being is the only reality worthy of your attention. And there are things popping up, the dinner that he doesn't want to join. I didn't plan that. It just came up. I wasn't going to. Anyway, that stuff just comes up, but this is part of the appearance, this is part of the dream.
And the awareness of presence or the knowing that you are is not forgotten. It is still the most important and the sweetest, the most beautiful thing because it is real, because it is there all the time, it is totally reliable, it is real, this is the reality. But the way we were conditioned, we were conditioned to completely ignore that, ignore the one thing that is actually completely reliable and undeniable And get distracted with the dream, you know, just change the movie, just put another movie, just get some music, something, something because well, and this and it's justifiable because we were conditioned to leave that sense of presence, that gut instinct of being and that heart knowing and go to the head and run away from, from whatever is happening in the moment into the story about it.
And then as we got accustomed to it, of course that is almost like an addiction. One could call it addiction because the flavors that mind is offering is so much more intense than just plain blunt sort of a being. Then of course we want a more dramatic, more interesting, more pleasurable or unpleasant Whatever. Because sensations or stories, because it makes us feel alive and it distracts us from the sense of void or sense of unworthiness, which is a byproduct of identifying or defining ourselves in the terms of mind as an object. So that's how it come about. So now as an object, I'm inferior, I'm unworthy.
And now I need to sedate myself. I need to run away and distract myself from that unpleasant feeling. So I'll go and get myself busy with the movie in the head, with the stories completely changing one after another, because it feels kind of less painful for a moment. But for how long? So now we kind of learn to distract ourselves continuously so much that I seen people who were coming and listening to Bob spiel hundred times And they still didn know why they were coming because there was nothing really that could actually take them a little bit above the stream of thought It's just, it's amazing the questions people ask after 20 years of coming here.
It happens because the veil is so thick, the destruction from that basic space, basic stillness is so intense. I was talking to a friend yesterday, she called, she was in trouble, she said it was such a gorgeous, beautiful, warm day and she was out in the park walking her dog, sweet little schnauzer. New sky, warm, nice, pleasurable air and off she went and she says, I can't appreciate it because everywhere I look there are these huge posters, you should be doing something productive, you unworthy, you don't deserve it. I say, okay, but who's reading them? Who is looking at them? Ah, yeah, well... She may stop, she may pause for a moment, for a minute, but we were on the phone for over an hour because they would stop for a minute, and then they would come from another corner, from another corner.
And these things are so believable, they are so realistic, that the one who is watching or the one who is aware of the content It's completely buried under the heaviness of those statements. They're so heavy. Yes, like anxiety, depression, the shame that is almost suicidal. That's heavy. Now, she was saying, okay, so now when you ask me a question, okay, I can see. I can actually see that they are not who I am because I'm looking from the distance at all these posters all around. Yeah, cool. But how long is she able to do it before the heaviness reaches back again? Well, it just feels so real.
It feels, well, of course. I mean, you know, if you take the conditioning and she's over 50, So half a century of believing the story she had about herself. And now the thought like this comes up and that thought has the emotional component. You know, when the thought, I'm unworthy, I don't deserve to be here, I don't deserve to be alive, you know. Of course, the cortisol runs through the body. It makes the fight-flight effect. All the blood goes out of the inner organs and the guts and goes to hands and legs and she's ready to whatever. It's just the chemical reactions in the machinery, in the biocomputer.
So it feels real. She says, I can feel it physically. Oh, absolutely, of course. And I gave her an example about the movie that I say, you know, when you are watching a movie that you really like, and there is a hero in the movie, and that, well, she's a lady, so probably a lady, but if you could also think about the movie that you can identify with the hero of the movie, I am sorry for the interruption. What can that person worthy of contemplating on, that person in the movie, what can that person possibly do to wake up and become you, the one who's watching?
Or maybe there's 10 million people watching at the same time. What that character can do to wake up and become you? Absolutely nothing. There is absolutely nothing the character can do to become the one who is sitting in the cinema. And even the one who is sitting in front of the TV or in the cinema, can they wake up to become the emptiness? No way! It's impossible. The character is in an absolutely hopeless situation. Nothing the character can do. The only way out of the character is to actually see that you have never even been in the character. That's the only way out, to realize that you're not in it.
You think you are a person, you are a character, and you are getting running away from whatever villains or enemies. How can you run away from the TV? How can you jump off the TV screen and become the one who's sitting? Ridiculous, absurd. So that much one can do to wake up. That much people who come here and listen and think, oh no, yeah, I'm not there yet, I didn't completely wake up yet, but a little bit more and I will wake up. No! That character can never ever wake up. Not in a million years, not in a million satsangs. It is waking up from the character.
And this is not happening by any doing of the character. So what is it that the character can do in a situation like this Like now I not talking to anybody I not talking to any mind And there is a body that is listening and thinking yeah all right it makes sense So what can I do What You're fucked. You're fucked, absolutely. Totally. Yes. Accept it. If you accept it fully, that you can't jump off as the character of the TV screen, you can't. Translations by I am a character. It's still gonna be experienced, it's still gonna be happening, pleasure, pain, interest, drama, whatever. But now, if you really, really prio...
pri... priorytize... prioritize, yeah. Even as a character, if the character have the fantasy about waking up, I have the fantasy about getting out of itself, which is a ridiculous fantasy. It can't happen, never ever. But if there is that seeming last desire happening in the character that yes, this is important, yes, this is what I want, this is why I was born, just because this is earnestness of which Nisargadatta was saying. If this is that love for the truth in that seeming character, or if there is a pain, an exhaustion of suffering in this seeming character, now the seeming character can seemingly surrender. You want to do something?
Get out of the way. Surrender. Surrendering is not an act, it's not an action. Surrendering is complete inaction. Now I want to do anything, I'm ready to do anything, I'll do whatever. God tell me what to do, I'll do anything. And now the God says surrender, do nothing. Absolute zilts, nothing, you don't exist. The closest you get to non-existence is by doing nothing. If you want to do something, you want to be a doer. Well, good luck, have fun. But if you really want to realize the truth of the spontaneous expression of life without any agency needed on the way, then just do nothing and let that life express as it does.
Just see how it is already happening. See how the seeing is already happening. Nobody does it. Nobody does the seeing. Nobody does the digestion. It's happening. Nobody grows the grass, it's happening. Nobody blows the wind. It's like the whole universe is making things happen. The life, the energy, the omnipotence, the total power is expressing as every single thing in the world. It's replacing cells, it's speaking, it's doing everything. And now this omnipotence. Yeah, just see how it is already effortlessly so. Now as the individual you can't even see. But if you're dreaming you can see, just keep dreaming and see. See how without the individual, without any agency, without anyone who would have any influence or any action, life goes on.
How without any action or any involvement thoughts come up. Actions happen through the body. There is nobody there who needs to look, keep an eye on it, control it or choose it or will it or wish it, and it's already happening. So really it is just to build up the conviction because all of you have the conviction strong enough to know that the individual is a fiction. You are not among those who come here and after 100 satsangs or 20 years still don't quite get that there is about no self here, all that talk. That there is no need for agency. You know there is no need for agency.
Now, I think I heard you, Robin, saying before the satsang, I was preparing vitamin C for Bob, maybe you should drink it, that you kind of built the evidence of... That's sort of how it seems to be. Yeah, tell us about it. This is kind of a nice way of thinking. Yeah, well it's just that's the way it seems to be to me, is that, like I see that the self is an illusion, the personal self is an illusion, I get locked back into it all the time, but it seems that I'm seeing more and more evidence that shows that it's false. So it's building up over time, this evidence against it.
Beautiful. That's how it seems to me to be what's happening. I mean, it's a gradual process, not an all of a sudden thing, but that's what seems to happen to me anyway. That's fantastic. And that evidence, if you could share the evidence, that people watching there from somewhere, from Europe, I guess, that evidence may actually support their seeking too. The thoughts refer back to themselves and it self-reinforces the idea of a separate entity in the way it refers back to itself. And I mean you can see that, it pops up all the time and it just, you can see it happening. You can see how it happens that you're being...
Can you give us an example of a thought? Oh, I don't know actually, on the spur of the moment, but no. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, because it is really, this is the whole gathering is really about now, just exploring and helping each other to stabilize. Okay. Because everyone kind of get it that, you know, nobody is assuming that, yeah, oh yeah, sure, I'm leaving myself or I'm beating my heart. No. But now, find the stabilizing this, like really grow in the certainty, like dispel all the invitation for the rights that the mind takes. You know, gosh, I must have been dreaming because it kind of, I remember when I was seeking, it was the moments of absolute clarity and the next moment, ah, shit, there's nothing in it.
This is all a dream, it's all a nightmare and there is a me and the me is suffering and I can't wake up from it and it's just hopeless. And then again opening. So this moment when it kind of seems to, like the clouds seem to go away and you see a little bit of a sunlight and then the clouds cover it up again. This is some sort of a transition period when you still think you are between the clouds and the sun. When you don't really abide in the certainty that you aren't between the clouds and the sun. You are the sky itself. What I seem to see too is I get periods between thoughts are getting a lot bigger.
I just sit without thinking lots of the time now. It just happens. There's nothing you can do about it. It just happens that way. And it's not a problem, is it? No, no it's not. It's not boring or it's not uncomfortable? No, so I find now I can just listen to somebody talking without a thought process analysing what's being said. You just listen. I think that to me is the communication between the I am to the I am that you are as well. It's going in past the thought process. It just goes in. It's not going through a thought process at all. Oh boy, what a huge difference, isn't it?
Because in the beginning, initially when we communicate, at least this is what I remember from communicating with people, I was so preoccupied with how am I going to respond to them, what are they going to think about me. I would form the concept about the story that they are saying to me. There would be a lot of commentary going on, a lot of guessing, so I wouldn't really hear much of them. I would be just commenting all the time. It wouldn't give them enough space. Like when you actually give completely space for listening, it doesn't really matter. There is no you in it. So it doesn't matter what they're going to think about you.
It just doesn't exist. That layer, that veil doesn't exist anymore. The communication is effortless. Well, I noticed this when I was doing a training course at work one time. I was thinking and in the thinking period I wasn't hearing what was being said so I was missing things. You think well I do that all the time. So you miss most of what the communication is because you're thinking about what they're saying. And you can't really listen to them and listen to yourself at the same time. Yeah, you can't. No. So now that you're listening and you're just hearing... You're just listening without interpreting. You probably remember better too.
I am not sure what it is, but I think so. Because if I'm doing any of that, if I'm interrupting, it's proof that I wasn't listening. I was listening to myself. I have to listen to myself in order to interrupt you. And I think I just did that. That's what we do all the time. And that's also what happens initially when people come here to the meetings. And they're constantly listening. They're listening to Bob. They believe they may be even desperate to hear what he says, but they're completely incapable of switching off their own commentary and of stopping to compare with what I heard before, of what I knew before, or does it really matter, does it make sense?
They can't, you know, it's not a bad will or anything, it's just an automatic mechanical process that is going on. And it takes a while before this process drops off and before we actually it takes an art to be able to listen without that commentary To listen with absolute curiosity just completely open like Bob says heart to heart When you just leave that open space and anything, whatever comes, is not commented, is welcomed with the curiosity. So that's the listening, what Yutani was saying, where you don't really need words because you're not going to be arguing with them, you're not going to be arguing back anyway.
So it's just being receptive to the point, it's almost like being a sponge, that just complete the receptivity because there is no fear anymore, there is no guard, no defenses Ameen. Nothing to lose. That can create that sort of receptivity also. Or it may just spontaneously happen with the slow or fast process of ripening, which is again not done by the individual. It happens or it doesn't. I love what you were saying, Kat, because I hadn't heard that analogy used before about the TV character. I didn't either, I just came up. Yeah, yeah. And the exact same analogy can be applied to the dreamed, say, your dreamed character in a dream, when you're asleep dreaming.
And whilst you're asleep and you're dreaming, the character, like yourself, in that dream seems very real. You can get affected by all sorts of things. It can experience fear, it can experience laughter, the whole gamut. And the sitting here in this space and expecting the me to wake up is exactly the same as the dreamed character whilst you're asleep and dreaming Expecting it to be able to experience what it's like to be awake when you wake up from the dream. Do you see that? I'm going to have to like chew on that a little bit. It's pretty... So you're saying that this is like the dream, in the dreaming, the dreaming character experiencing...
I Am a Dreamer The same principle applies in this room. But the dreamed character, while you're asleep and dreaming, is expecting, like the me is here now, is expecting to be able to awaken from that dream and know what it's like to be awake. Now, I don't know about you, but when I wake up from that dream, it just goes poof and it's gone. So the character in that dream cannot know what it's like to be awake. It can't. Actually, I've been in a dream and realised that it's a dream. Yeah, yeah. I'll clarify that a little bit. Just a little bit because I've done lucid dreaming courses and I had lucid dreaming experiences too.
If you want to use that analogy, you have to imagine now you are a dream character. And of course there are dreams that everybody probably had once in life, at least psychology says so. When you're running away from someone and your legs are almost like you're going through the water, it's so hard. Translation I am the body, corpse, under the blanket, feeling the pillow on the head. Zilz. I did lucid dreaming, yes. There is absolutely no recollection. Yes, there is no recollection of sleeping body. Imagine if you went, oh, this is, you know, realized this is a dream. Yes yes I did lucid dreaming I did realize yes And so then it all changes You are like you are still asleep You are dreaming you woke up Correct But when I realized I was in a dream.
But what do you know about the sleeping body? Oh, I don't know anything. That's the point. The analogy here, same as analogy with the character in the TV. You know how the character in the TV, the little body of that person, that actor that is running there, How is that character of that body realized that it has been created by the one who looks at it or the director? How is the character in the movie going to wake up to the director or a character even in a cartoon? I suppose the director could write. Yeah, yeah, but... exactly. But it's not the character. It's the director writing it from zero.
Pt.1. The Director is drawing a cartoon. Now you have this cartoon character, drawn up the whole story that is waking up, getting great enlightenment, but it's still written by the director. How is the character, that is the little comic character, going to realize the director, that it has been written by someone? It's flat on the paper and there is someone in 3D writing about it. So lucid dreaming is absolutely wonderful experience, but as the analogy or the pointer in this particular situation, lucid dreaming would be to wake up as the character, let's say you have different, you don't have a nightmare, you have a nice kind of easy stroll through the forest or whatever, And you kind of remember in your dream that you are dreaming, but you're still walking.
But the dreaming body is not walking, unless you kind of having walk around the house without knowing it. My ex-husband was doing it. But usually, when you dream you are walking or flying or having sex or whatever, the body lies flat on bed. So if you would want to transition from the character running in the dream to the flat body lying in bed, if you could include the flat body lying in bed in the character, that would be the analogy. Lucid dreaming is a different story. Lucid dreaming is just like you said, if there is a character in the movie and the director told the character to become holy or saint, or the comic picture in the book, That is achieved the enlightenment because the one who was drawing a comic has put that in the role.
So lucid dreaming is just a little bit more kind of exciting dream because the body is still dreaming, it's just the front lobe that is awakened so there is a little bit of a memory sinking in from this character into the character in the dream. But the awareness of the body is still the awareness of the dream body. The dream body is still looking while the body in bed has closed eyes. But then you're not the body in bed anyway. No, but see if you wake up from the dream character to the body in the bed, which you are not either. But see what a big difference is completely like being in a flatland and waking up to 3D.
And now, if you are, because that's what Terry was pointing out, if you are waking up from the dream character to this person here, it's quite similar, your relation with the dream character or the dream world is quite similar to the relation when you wake up from this. And now, oh my God, the dream may be still going on, but now you are not, see, you're, that whole world, You were strolling through the forest maybe at night. I realized in a dream that I was not in this reality. But see, I actually like this analogy because I did lucid dreaming and because I remembered thousands, sometimes eight, nine dreams per night.
And I could see in the dreams different universes, different orders. I had different bodies, I was different species, I was different sex. Now, this was a fantastic adventure, beautiful adventure, but this is still completely a dream. Now, I was going through 10,000 years old forest with huge trunks of the trees. I was walking around pyramids. I was going in spaceships. Where are they? Where are they now? Where are they when you wake up? So this is another phase of the reality. The moment you wake up from making this world solid, very very solid, and you realize, oh my gosh, there's nothing, it's just vibrating atoms, you know, energy moving, and the way we're looking reassures the existence of it.
What a great idea! It's a sign. Exactly, exactly. It's completely lucid, liquid fluid. So if you want to use the analogies, they're beautiful, but we have to actually be very, very careful with the limitation of analogy, otherwise we jump to wrong conclusions and we lost. But it's always good to verify and ask, and actually the best thing, debate it. No, no, this is all wrong. Yeah, I'll show you. Please, please. Yeah, debate anything, whatever we say here, debate it, prove it wrong, because that will do you good. And nobody's going to knock me. I'm a hopeless debater. Oh, that's a pity. But she's not. Yeah.
It's the director talking. Yeah. How about you? So June that I was talking to you about in relation to the dream character in the dream yeah So our me that are sitting in this room right now expecting enlightenment is exactly the same as the Dream Character in a dream expecting to be able to wake up and know what it like to be awake and not dreaming anymore Do you get that? It's the same thing. I mean, the only difference from what I've come to understand between the sleeping dream and the waking dream is in the sleeping dream, there is no time and space. And in this waking dream, we have the appearance of time and space.
Right? It's so much simpler than that. Can you see the absurdity of the dreamed character in a dream whilst your body is lying on the bed asleep? Can you see the absurdity of that character wanting and expecting to be able to experience being awake up off the bed? No, generally not. The dream character is not even real. It's fiction. And Niles has no idea that he's dreaming most of the time. Unless we're talking about the lucid dream. I Am the Dream. It's fiction. That's the point. That's the point that I'm making. And the other thing too is, I want you to consider this, alright? When you're asleep on the bed and you're dreaming and somebody comes in the room to wake you up, who do you think they're speaking to?
The character in the dream or the presence in the body that's lying on the bed? The presence in the body that's lying on the bed. Hallelujah. Now when Bob says, I'm not speaking to any body, that's exactly what he's talking about. He's speaking to the presence in the body that's sitting in the chair. If you want to slam it into a body, okay. If you want to slam it into a body, yeah, okay, you can do that. Bob wanted to say something to you. Nisargad said, you're dreaming a dream you call the world. And stop looking for ways out. That's what we're doing. This is a dream.
We don't realize it. We're looking for ways out. We're going to become enlightened. He says the dream is not your concern. Your concern is that you love one part and not another. Trying to get out, who's trying to get out? The dreamed up character that thinks it's going to, that thinks it's going to wake up. Love one part or another. He says leave, love all of it or none of it. Don't try and get out of it, no. And the rest will be done for you by that same essence that formed the body, formed the dream, formed everything else that's looking after you right now.
But I think we're going to become enlightened in this dream, become realized, come enlightened, come happy. I wonder why it doesn't happen, because this is in the dream as well. And there's no one to become enlightened? Well again going back to the dream character, can that be implemented out there, do anything? So what's been spoken to is the sense of presence, not Julie. Julie is just a label. Not the... Not the personality, not the mind, not the story, not the phone. It's an absolute dreamed character. Same as in the dream. That's why I keep using that analogy. Now, if you can see the absurdity of the character in your dream when you're asleep, somehow when the body awakes, that dreamed character is going to know what it's like to be awake.
You must be able to see the absurdity in that. It's a dreamed character. I get it, I get it. Right. Apply the exact same thing to this Julia that you think is sitting in the chair and travels here and has got kids and does this and is coming to Bob's and trying to seek and trying to learn and writing books and all that stuff is the dreamed character. All of it. Yes. So there's no body or there's no persons or personal self that arrives here in this room and gets to listen to Bob and gets anything. Nothing. Right. And what Bob's talking to is that sense of presence, that awareness.
And until we see that, we think he's talking to me. And there is no me. Right. I am and I will be always. I am and I will be always. The As soon as you wake up from that dream, it completely loses its power and its reality. And disappears. And disappears. You know what it was. Oh pfft. Thank f**k for that. That was just a dream. Now wake up from this one. Because the exact same, and I mean exact, same thing is happening. The sleeping dream and the waking dream. I am a woman. All these are the same. I am not saying they are, I am not saying they are.
I am just saying I am being a little bit more... I am being a little bit more... That that's been spoken to and that that awakens is that oneness. Not you. And that oneness, you can call it oneness karma, that oneness is completely, 100% responsible for dreaming you. Yes. So it's that oneness that is being spoken to that awakens to itself. That presence, that awareness of you. I understand this. Well, there's something to say. When this doesn't say it's self-awareness, it sees itself as my self. My self. My car, my house, you know, you don't have to go. My self. And that's what it's all about.
We're all seeking self-liberation, self-realization, self-understanding. But we've taken this personal self to be real. But there never was a personal self. So it's that self that is realized. It's that self that is liberated. It's that self that is knowing. It's the one self that's expressing everything. Can you be anything other than that? I'm hesitant to say really anything because I feel kind of dumb every time I do. Yeah, now how does that feeling dumb sit with the, you know, like who's feeling dumb? Nobody, nobody. This is just a dumbness feeling happening. Yeah, exactly. I mean, look at this. This is really a great invitation because, you know, Because, you know, like Teddy was pointing out, that, oh, you're feeling embarrassed now.
Fantastic. Or you're feeling dumb. Oh, fantastic. Because now there is an opportunity to see that the dumbness or the embarrassment is just the character in the movie, actor, and you are the one who is knowing about it. You are the knowingness about the embarrassment and about the shame or dumbness or whatever. And this doesn't touch you. Who you are is not embarrassed and is not dumb. You are the pure knowing, aware consciousness and Julia is none of your concern. It doesn't matter that Julia looks better or smarter or wiser than Robin or anyone else. No, it doesn't because Robin and Julia are all within you.
A week and a half ago I was in a courthouse in New York and there was some drama going on And I felt good that I was able to, as it was all happening, to be able to sit and watch the play unfold, but not be the player. Okay? So, to many, I mean, I feel like there's, you know, I mean, like I have that experience. I was able to do that in the moment and it was dramatic. Okay? If you want to get into dramatic stories, there were lawyers saying, That's not true! And it was dramatic, and I was just like, wow. This is dramatic.
And be able to see it there, instead of going into the story world of saying, Oh my God, this is happening to me. So, this has happened before having said that to nobody. Of course it's not happening to anybody and I feel like I have an understanding that there's absolutely nobody here. It never has been There was a thought there was a me and I thought there was a me and I believed there was a me I believed I was this body entity and I know I not And I feel like for the most part I absolutely know that that just a story it a thought and it not what I am It's just a thought that comes up, right?
Wonderful. And then something like, do you remember back in November when I was in Russia? Yes. I thought before I went to Russia, I thought I got this down. I know this nonduality stuff. There's no me. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. And then I go with Patch and I get upset because I was offended. There was a judgment and I was being judged. Okay? And I noticed it later, you know, that there was some selfing happening. But in the moment, I didn't realize and I thought before that, oh, I got this down. I feel like, okay, I might think I have this down, but nobody.
There's nobody to have any of this down. And I thought earlier, as you were talking, you were saying to me, so how is this different from Bob? There's no difference. That would have been maybe a better answer to say he's got more experience. There is no him and there's no me. This is all a story, so there is no difference. See, the problem isn't the best answer. Yes, the answer would be better if you would say that, like, it would be... That was like coming up in the moment spontaneously, and it wasn't thought about. Exactly. It would be kind of more correct, but who cares what is correct or what's not correct, you know?
This is about being completely practical about it. If there is any selfie going on, it means the investigation has to go on. And if I say, I've got it done, I've got it right, I understand it. Investigation needs to keep happening. And I do that every time I catch myself saying, I got it, because I realise there's a me to get it. Exactly. And if there's a me to get it, then I don't get it. That's right. I'm fucked. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. If you don't get it, what question are you? I'm nothing. If there's nothing, there's nothing to get. Why put the nothing on it?
Let me think about this first. Why put the nothing on it? You are, aren't you? I am. But I'm also everything. Right. You are, I am not. I am that. It's not nothing or nobody, I am that. What's that mean? I'm everything. Yes, a totality. I'm the totality. We'll start from that. How far can you go from that? Can't be any more than that. No, but before we can't be, we realise that I said before that we try to become something. Becoming is not being. The metaphor that you use of intelligence energy for me has been tremendous. To see that I'm everything, that I'm the totality, because if we strip that down, it really fits in with my idea of, or the one that I'd learned somewhere, it wasn't my idea, but it fit in with the idea of truth is that which never changes.
And what's never changed is the stillness between the movement and that intelligence energy that I am, that you are, that everything, this chair, everything is. That's how I'm everything, I'm the totality. Notice how you fit ideas, because this is non-conceptual. I know, but I love this concept. There's no me to love it, I get it. It's just the experience of the full stop. So as long as you've got the experience of the full stop, even if chatter is happening, that's it. That's the experience of that. That's it. Julie, where are you stuck? Where am I stuck? Thank you, Julia. Just don't call me early in the morning.
Yeah, yeah, cool. Where are you stuck? You tell me. No, no, you tell me. Where am I stuck? Like, you've got the patter down. Okay. You've got the patter down, okay? But you'll be the first to acknowledge, I'm still dreaming. I'm not awake. The only thing that I feel like, if you want me to answer that question, The only place where I feel like I'm still so stuck is there's a shitload of thoughts still happening. Okay? A lot, a lot, a lot. And I will do my best frequently, not all as bad, whenever the thought comes up, it has to come up in order for me to remember to do that, but just to be without a thought, and drive my car without the constant chit-chat, not to let the chit-chat fall away, and then a fucking thought will come up again, and I'll see that thought, and then often follow that train of thought.
There's not me doing any of this, never has been, and it's not me remembering to just be quiet. And there's not me understanding of this. And it feels like that to you, right? It just feels, bang, you came out of nowhere. It feels like it just came, right? Yeah. Yeah, so you are walking, a lot of talk, you're talking, but people might not be getting that. What? You are experiencing it just like nothing, but people might interpret you, or you're just saying that. But, you know, if you are, well that's popped out of nowhere, you are experiencing it too. And I think people can often have a filter of just, oh, that sounds heady, that's just from the head.
So I'm just saying that, yeah, it sounds like, yeah, there were lots of moments where, well, yeah, that just yeah it really does feel to you like a number of times it just happening Yeah That great that one of the its yeah So then if you ask where I stuck that it It just that I feel like okay well there nothing I can do I am the one who is stuck The emptiness and the quiet and the space and the beingness without a word, before the words. What is energy? What is energy? It's a vibration. Yes, an activity. Right. And what's intelligence? It's knowing. Knowing.
The activity of knowing. Isn't that going on right now? Yes. Always? Always. Wow. Not knowing is a form of knowing. You're knowing that you're not knowing. So knowing is happening all the time. There can be an awareness of knowing that thinking is going on, which is different from not knowing that it's going on. You're just lost in it. But there can arise a knowing that, shit, thinking, look at all this thinking. An awareness that the thinking is, without a need to stop it, there can just arise an awareness of it. And to me, well, who doesn't exist, but that's a different feeling state, a different feeling state, When there's an awareness of bloody hell, what my mind's been doing, without necessarily thinking, I should have stopped all that.
And then there's a way full stop, where there's just nothing about anything. Full stop, yeah, that's the best solution. Nothing about anything. Full stop, don't go there. Not even don't go there, it's just nothing about anything, it's just there for it, there's simply nothing, no thinking, so nothing is made of anything, and it's clear as a bell. No matter how short it is, nothing was made of anything. The knowing. Because nothing has come to mind, because there has been nothing processed. Nothing comes to mind. The activity of knowing. Nothing can come to mind. Nothing just comes to mind because there has been no process. And it's not a logical thought about there's been no process.
It's just definitely clear. There's nothing arising up to be said. Julie, I heard where you're stuck. Uh-oh. I heard where you're stuck. You didn't hear it, because you're still talking from it, from that sense of me. Right. But I heard it. I hope you hear it when you, if you get the opportunity to listen to this back. Yeah. Okay? There's still a Julie there that is observing thoughts, observing action, observing non-action, observing understanding, observing getting it, not getting it, observing a busy mind. Right. So what you're still doing is you're still looking at all the content which includes knowledge of this understanding. As opposed to going deeper because it's much closer.
Translated by Amara.org Look, look, my experience, I went through the same shit, exactly the same, like exactly the same. And you know, I got to be able to, you know, even if I was questioned, you know, it was like I could give the patter, could totally give it. I am nothing. I am not the body. I know I am everything. I know I am nothing. I know I am not here. I know Julie is not doing anything. But there is always still an I there making all those statements. That's the me that you need to find. It's really close, Julie. It's really close. You're still looking in or at the basic screen of thought that all the content appears in.
You're still there. But there's still a Julie there that's seeing all that. Because if that Julie wasn Julia if that Julia wasn there and aware of all that you be awake Completely awake So I am trying to say is it Is she there when she not thinking No. So what I am trying to say is it's really, really, really close. In my experience, I got used to seeing the content of thought that would happen for Terry. I got used to seeing that. And part of that content that I was seeing and was aware of was even answers to stuff I'd heard in relation to nonduality.
All that was in there. What was also in there were things like, you're useless, you'll never get this, low self-esteem stuff, victim stuff, shame stuff. That was also in the content. And all that content was still referring to a supposed me that's present. I am the difference between being aware of all the content of thought and that tight, contracted sense of me that still seems to be there. Even though I know all this shit. I know I'm nothing, but the truth is I still feel like I'm here. What I noticed for myself was that that really really really close, that really close sense of me, the dialogue that used to happen from that really close sense of me didn't appear in the content.
It appeared kind of back here. And I didn't notice it. I wasn't aware of it. It wasn't until I really saw what was going on. I saw what was going on. Then I went, okay, you little fucker, where are you? Like, seriously, where are you? I had to look. Where are you? I know you're not in there. I know you're not in all the content, all those thoughts and all that noise and conditioning and ideas and beliefs. I know you're not in there. After all, I know you're not in there because I'm aware of all that. What you are you looking for though when you're talking about that?
Bigger button. Which you are you looking for when you're talking about that? That that believed it was aware of content. The witness. The witness. So instead of the witnessing, it was the witness saying the content. And there's still... Tricky little fucker. Correct. And there's still, there's still, Julia, there's still a witness-er there. And what I'm trying to point out at the moment is, look, it's a natural process to kind of I Am I Am the One, I Am the One. So that's right now where I'm a little bit... You have to discern the difference between the witnesser and witnessing. Okay. Absolutely, there's witnessing going on.
No rips or butts about that. But there's nobody to witness it. Yeah, but you haven't seen that. I'm still saying it from a concept and not from a point. You just haven't had a... I said yes. You haven't had a... You haven't had a close enough look. Only because we all did it too. That's why we're saying yes. We all did that too. And you have to try and look for that really close, tight, personal me. Try and look for where is the dialogue of it? You should start to become aware that it's much closer than the content of thought. Ride the wave, Nisargadatta says.
The wave of the breath, that's how close it is. I am not saying that I am not a person who has a certain level of understanding of the world. How did I miss that? And the reason I miss it is because it's so close. Yeah, why should it take the infinite long to find the infinite? There's no such thing as time, huh? When it happens, it's all gone. It's just a dream. Just like a cliff bang. So that's just a concept that just floated through then, are you? I should have already known it. I should have never forgotten. If I'm infinite, I should have just already known that.
No, no, no, no, no. Julia, you're being dreamed by the Infinite so the Infinite can experience the so-called Julia. Well, wouldn't you want to? Absolutely. Absolutely. Now here's the thing. Here's the thing. I already am. I know. I already am experiencing that. What, Julia? Yeah. You do? Yeah. Kat and Bob, Jane, Rob, Tony, Tony, come and be my Chris. So are you. The whole universe appears in you. You are the awareness. If there's only one, if there's only one, you know, like, come on. If there's only one, there's no room for you, I'm sorry, or me. There's no room. And this is about nonduality, which means one without a second, if you like.
It's about that. So this is all just an allusion. You want to say something, Bob? Even the idea of a witness and witnessing is an allusion too. Yeah. What's the witness? What's the witness? Just a concept you got in there that's hanging onto it. That's always the ing. You've got to put the ing on the end. So how is that different from the knowing? You often talk about knowing. You say, is anyone here not seeing or hearing? And we all are, and so I think you're suggesting there is knowing, kind of knowing. That you are. And I guess what people are saying is that is completely different from witnessing the thought.
Is that right? One has thought going on, and the knowing is no thought. Is that right, Bob? It's just, before you put a thought on it, it's a concept you put on it, isn't it? That knowing is just the same as a wearing down, isn't it? Right. And you put the label witness on it if you like, but there's no witness on it. No, right. Just more labels, of course. Trying to just... Nothing's coming up about anything. There's no meaning making happening. And look, the reality is, those questions that are currently arising for you, the answer only comes up or is realised when you're absent.
When you're seen to be what you actually are. . It's alright for the questions to be totally right, but some of them can't be answered. It's like, Bob uses an analogy, I can sit here and describe to you all day what it's like to sip a glass of water, and if you've never sipped that glass of water, I could I was sitting here for the next six years trying to describe to you what water tastes like, but until you sip it, all you're going to have is just my conceptual idea of it that I'm trying to impart to you. Having said that, Terry's concept of no room can actually be experienced.
I am not sure if that makes sense. a sensation is coming up, then another one, then another one, then another one, and nothing happens, no meaning happens about anything that just happened in the moment before. it doesn't. there's just no room for you in there, there's just no room for anything because no meaning happened, another thing came and another thing came. for me it's just in and out, in and out, in and out, so in that whole thing just then mostly there was one moment where meaning did happen, tiny quick one, and a whole bunch The commentaries, comparisons, nothing occurs to make anything of it, no processing happens.
Then you do just get the experience, and there is no room for any kind of conceptual thing, because it's just not showing. Beautiful. Beautiful, and it is also very important to actually be able to acknowledge that moment, because this is really when you build up the confidence, when you realize that most of Most of the time there is really nobody there There is nobody there when you are sleeping and not dreaming There is nobody there when you are cooking or when you are busy reading book watching TV driving car whatever The I comes usually with the problem It gives itself The But if it is recognized right away, there is no me in it, it's just a preference, just bland, dead preference.
But when there is an investment, that little fetter, that little flavor, extra flavor of being personal, being mine, being separate, like dear to my heart, that is when that seeming individual is hiding. But the moment it is recognized that, oh yeah, wow, that felt personal, You know all the answers and they go so quickly. I'm nothing, I'm everything, I'm that, I'm that, I'm totality. Whatever Bob says, you know all the answers. And now, brilliant, beautiful. But really, the knowing doesn't really need the answers, it doesn't have questions, it doesn't need reassurance, it's not an exam. If somebody asks you questions and the feeling comes in like, oh yeah, I've got to give them the right answer, otherwise they will despise me or they will think bad of me or I will disappoint them.
I don't want to do that. I want them to like me. Oh, I'm stupid. Yeah, I want them to like me and especially Bob. I don't want to disappoint Bob. Of course, I'm going to drop all these answers at him because I know I'm going to use his words because then he'll be happy. No, he won't. He will be very... He won't because he will hear the frequency of the exam. Yes, you are a student. You're the best. You're brilliant because you're intelligent and you're sweet and you're loving and you... Oh gosh, we love you beyond measure. But yes, we love you beyond measure and that's why he won't slap you in the face occasionally.
Personally, because in that love, he knows there is further to go. You don't want to, he doesn't want you to be an A student because that's really... He wants you to graduate. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to graduate too. Yeah. So just, you know, like, don't be afraid of disappointing him. I'm talking, aren't I? Yeah. I'm taking a chance. Yeah. And I'm probably going to disappoint. And you might slap me across the face. Oh, great. I keep coming back for more. Ernest, Ernest. Beautiful. Cool. And you're going to be loved because we know who you are. We don't really see Julia anymore because, well, we see the character.
It's a beautiful character. It's a sweet character because, you know, they are nasty characters too. Being, knowing and loving to be. Can you separate the being from the knowing? And in those two there is a love of being and a bliss of being. That's Satyajit Nanda. And that's what I tell you. I am that. That is what you are. Stop being right now. Stop knowing right now. Don't you love to be right now? I'll shout loudly, I am that already. I am that! Yes. I couldn't be anything but that. Yeah. That is all there is. That's right. There's nothing other than that. That's the tripod, that's the camera for the phone, that's you, that's me.
It's all that we've put labels on which we've learned are required. And yes, there is a logic, you know, the way Bob is explaining it. That's the tripod, that's the camera, everything is that. We could see logically that in our language, yes, that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I get it, it makes sense. But again, logic can be helpful in the beginning, but this is really not about logic. The knowing... This is what I am before the words, before the thought, before the I, that's what I am, before anything. And without the logic, even if it wasn't logical. I am a Dhamma teacher. I don't know.
Yeah, let's try it. What am I? What are you? Yes. I don't know. Because you've already given few answers to it. Now you're giving the right answer. Now you're giving the true, now you're being honest. Yes. Now you're being real. You not everything you not nothing you not that you not the absolute you not the totality Those are all labels you none of it You don know I don know Bob doesn know Terry doesn know We all not know. We have no fucking clue what we are. You basically stop thinking, that's what you do. You stop making anything of anything. Yeah. Whilst you're giving all the right answers, whilst you're giving all the right answers, And yet you still actually really don't know, you're going to try and look for other answers.
You're going to think there's something I've missed. As opposed to just being with, I don't fucking know. Do you know you're not the body? Yeah. Bullshit. Bullshit. See what I mean? Yeah? Yeah? At least you can say sometimes. Well, you know, I feel like at least I've had that experience of, you know, man, like when I saw my father's corpse. Honey, Julia. That's proof. Julia. Julia. It's a pointer. I'm just pointing. Don't take it absolutely literally, what I'm saying. Okay. But come back to what you actually really know. Not the correct answers. Please. Not the correct answers. It will get you nowhere. You'll just fucking spin around and around and around and around and you'll stay in the same spot.
I'm telling you. The only thing I can know is just that I am. There you go. Good enough. Yeah. And what do you do then? B What does that involve? Nothing. See how much simpler it gets. Can you see how much simpler it gets? All these are the elements of the truth. When you talk from your current direct experience, then it's real. All the other stuff is fluff, man. It's just fluff. And it's okay, because the fact is, everyone goes through that. You went through that Bob? Pardon? You went through that? I drew everything. More than once. And eventually isn't there a knowing that you don't know?
Yeah. Damn thanks. When you say I don't know you must prove that knowing is a fear that we don't deserve. Yeah, you have to know to not know. That's being, knowing, and having to be again. It's the same, isn't it? It's so beautiful not knowing, Julia. It's so beautiful. It is. Given all the, you know... It's just so fucking liberating when you come to... It's such a relief. I don't know. And that's totally alright. And you know what? At least I know that I don't know. And I don't need to know and I don't care. Yeah. Because who needs to know? Just for you and the experience that I've had with you and when we've been alone, also, all I would be pointing out at this point in time is to just be real.
What I mean by that is be honest. Really, really fucking honest. If you don't know, so you don't fucking know. You know, it's one thing to sit here and say, yeah, I know I'm not the body. If you don't fucking know that, you're stuck. You're going to stay stuck. You will absolutely stay stuck. You get me? I Am The Body, I Am The Mind www.nishargad.com I Am Not Saying That Julia Is A Dishonest Person. I Am So Not. I Think You Are Extraordinarily Honest. I Am Talking About Self-Honesty. Not What Comes Out Of Your Mouth In Relation To Others, Your Behaviour, How You Are Acting, Your Morals, Ethics.
I Am Not Talking About That. At All. From your direct experience get honest And if you do that and you reside there when you do get a chance to spend time with Bob he be able to get through Because you're showing who you are. You're showing. Rather than fluffing it all over with, yeah I know I'm not this, I know I'm not that, I know I'm that, and I know I am that. Fuck it, there's nowhere to go. Do you understand? You with me? I'm doing my best. Cool. That's honest. That's honest. You've got to come back to that. You've really, really got to come back to that.
Have to come back to that. Otherwise, you'll stay stuck. This feels like an intervention. I don't mean... I got the whole room jumping on board. How wonderful! You must be really loved. Feels a bit like an insult to me. Feels like an assault. Just assume... That's what I mean. Just assume that this is exactly what needed to happen. Just go with that. I know that. That's something I really have... I have... or in my experience, nothing could be different than what it is. Nothing could be different than what it is. Beautiful. It can't. It can't be. So it's not an intervention, it's not an assault, it's not an attack, it's not an attack.
No, but it's just like, it's just kind of, I'm saying it's just... It's purely a pointer. No, but it's beautiful and I'm grateful. And I love you all and this is what brings me back here, it's like I'm in this room full of Buddhas and I'm one of you. I love you all so much. I had the whole room jumping on you. Could you care less? No. Then you let Patch put all the shit on you and believed it for a while. Sorry? Then you let Patch put all the shit on you and you believed it for a while. Yeah, I did. I did. That was a year ago.
Yeah, well, you've changed. I think I've grown a little since then, I hope. Definitely. Definitely. Absolutely. I wouldn't have said what just came out of me wouldn't have come out otherwise. No way. No way. You're gonna need to hear this. You need to hear this. Because you're just gonna get stuck. No, it's good that we're recording this so I can listen to it on the loop. And Julia, I know I'm speaking from my own experience. And because I'm speaking from my own experience, it's really, really easy for me to see it happening in someone else. I have a lot of questions. I won't mention names.
It's perfect. Especially not on camera. My crazy self. Or whatever. This dreaming. It's perfect. Describe yourself to me. Describe it. What do you mean? What comes up? Describe yourself. That's what came up because I don't know what you mean by describing myself. So like my ultimate self or describe Julia. Either. I can't describe the ultimate self. But Julia, I could give you lots of descriptions. Julia? Is Julia a self? Julia is not my self. Then what are you talking about? Did you hear what you just said? But Julia, I could give lots of descriptions. There is no Julia. Julia doesn't have a self. Julia is a memory.
I am a person who is not a person. Describe yourself. This me-self that you believe yourself to be. Describe the self. Describe it. What time is it? Yes, overtime. Oh, okay. Overtime, yes. Oh, okay. Sure. Well, I'm going to ask you a question. Thank you.