Non Duality - Sailor Bob, Sailor Kat

Say a couple of words. You know what we're? Yeah. I'm more nervous than I can anyway. Yeah, that's the best compliment I ever heard. Apart from the one that I heard from the tour guy in Egypt. We were going to see Pyramids. We are all ship's officers on board. I just had a little break. And I found a beautiful little scarf, like a kind of a beige with gold. I put it over my head and he says, Katarina, you look so beautiful. Put it more over your face. Cover your nose. Yeah, yeah. The more you're covered, the more beautiful you are. So the more passionate I get about shouting out non-duality, the harder Bob will sleep.

Yeah. At least he doesn't really... He trusts me enough. Yes, we should all be getting a good grip of it by now anyway. Yeah, well, what can I tell you? You don't know just yet. Repointing. Repointing. Yeah, it's funny actually because, well, you know, as much as I do, they say it is closer to your face. Closer than your face or closer or more. Closer. Closer than breathing, nearer than hands and feet. Oh, yeah. Okay. And it's actually more... That's tennis. And it's more intimate than your own breath and your face. And this is really, this is really sweet way of putting it because what is actually closer than the breath or the face?

What is it? Like almost to take it as a riddle and get it, you know, and then contemplate and find the answer. What would that be? Yeah, core is... What is it? There's nothing there in the core. Yeah. But it's not that, you know, that it's in a different location than the face or breath or anything. It's just kind of more intimate. It's like it is kind of dressed up in the... It's... Well, it's funny. It's just, yeah, you can just close your eyes and actually feel it. Just feel that... Feel that face has location in a way. And the knowing of the face doesn't.

And it's... And the very knowing, the very awareness is so close and is so intimate and it can't be known because it is the knowing agency. And it's so familiar and it's so always there. And the content, whether it's a breath or face or anything else, it doesn't really matter because the intimacy of the pure knowing. And if there is nothing to know, there is still the knowing of the being. So this is something that is so obvious and so intimately close that nearly everyone misses it. So everyone goes on a search and look for something. And then now you are a seeker or I am a seeker and I'm seeking something.

And funny enough, I don't know how many I heard saying it, but, boy, everyone who actually ended the search found nothing. Like it's not that, okay, I'm embarking on the search and I'm seeking, seeking, seeking until I find and then I stop seeking. It doesn't happen this way. When I find and there is really nothing to find is the realization that what I'm seeking hasn't been lost. It has been here all along, closer than the face, more intimate than the breath. So it's just really recognizing and awakening to the fact that what we are seeking has always been here, has never been lost. And it can't be found.

It can't because the very seeking is... How... You know, like if this is what I am, how can I find myself? How can I... If I am the awareness of being, awareness of the intimacy of the breath and the face, how possibly can I find that one that is the pure knowing? What would I have to be to actually make a knowing, pure knowing to be an object in awareness? So it can't be found. The seeking is chasing your own tail. Not only it is there all along, has never been lost, but also it can't be found because whatever is seeking is just a movement in the activity of knowing.

So those who ended the search, they found nothing, they lost the seeker. So end of the search is the end of the seeker. Suddenly, oh my God! How the whole idea of finding myself, my true self, my real self, or bigger self, how ridiculous it appears in a moment of realization that it has never been lost. And yeah, you all can connect to that very intimate feeling of knowing about something so... knowing more intimately than about the face or the shape, because face or a shape is a concept really. We have to visualize the face to even be aware of it. Apart from that, it's just a bundle of sensations that are not really...

located. If we want to locate it, the only way I can locate the face would be to say that it is here. But what is here really? What is the distance between the one who is aware and the face? Is it like, Tony, you were saying about the core, is it like half a meter or is there really any distance between the face and the awareness of it? It's just one and the same thing. So being aware of that sense of presence or being aware of any content, the very awareness of it is there all the time, is very... is so close to the heart, is so much closer to the heart than the functioning of the body, breathing in, sweating, it's just that pure knowing is so much closer, and who doesn't experience that?

Like, everyone does experience that. Well, the attention may go somewhere else, the attention may go, yeah, but what about the bills, paying the bills, or what about the relationships? But that's just a distraction. It doesn't obscure the fact that there is the pure awareness of being there all the time. So what are we really seeking? Whatever is being sought is an idea. It must be, because nothing has been lost. So now there is an idea that there is something to be found. And usually that idea is mystical union with the universe. Because, you know, you open Nisargadatta and he will say, yes, I've swallowed the universe.

Yes, I feel intimately one with everything. All the time? Well, no, not when he's sleeping, and not when he's eating or cuddling his grandchildren. So it is an experience. Mystical union with the universe is the experience that comes and goes. So is it really what we are looking for? Because if we are looking for the experiences of pleasure, oh, there is multitude of options. We can waste, I don't know, 100 lives just chasing pleasure, just chasing beautiful musing, yummy tastes, get addicted to sugar or whatever. But really, what is there underlying any chase for pleasure including mystical union with the universe and experiencing the whatever?

What are the others? Kundalini, yeah? And you want to add something? It all comes about because of... Oh, no, you hold it. Can I call again? Sales, of course. So what are you saying? Doesn't matter. Aww. Yes, so basically, if anybody is looking up for something else than the pure, intimate awareness of being that is here, is always here, just like the face is here, the breathing is here, there's nothing else that really needs to be found. But usually there is an idea in the seeking that there is something else, something bigger, something better, something more profound, like more pleasurable or ecstatic or blissful, some greater understanding where I'll be reading your minds or whatever.

And that's actually what stands in the way of realizing something that is there all the time, intimately close and dear. The moment it is actually really fully experienced is the sweetest thing. It's not even a thing. It's the miracle of the mind. It's the miracle of life. It's the miracle of being. In a place where there could have been nothing, there is this miracle of beautiful dream that is being cognized, that is being known. But then, of course, when it gets obscured by the idea that, yes, but I didn't get it yet, so there is an I and there is a world and I have to get somewhere and get that.

Oh, yuck. Then it starts to be painful. Then if there is a separate me, then there is a me. And that's not just pure witnessing of the miracle of that intelligence or life expressing in a multitude of forms. But there is some located agency here, insecure and afraid of the outside world that can threaten it. In future, of course, because right now nothing is really going on even if you're hanging on the cross or dying. But in the future it's going to get worse. So if there is an agency, the me, seeking security in the world, or seeking pleasure or seeking liberation, then, of course, it is now we enter the nightmare.

The dream became a nightmare. And the seeking can take forever. Because, I don't know, perhaps only exhaustion of the seeking mind is the end of it. Because that seeking mind can never find what it is seeking because its function is to seek. So whenever they, you know, the seeking, whether it's seeks, pleasure or it's seeks, prestige or it's seeks, whatever it is, the moment it finds it, it focuses attention on what next, what next? So that seeking mind, that mind of the seeker, trying to find enlightenment or liberation or being, is hopeless. It's never ever going to happen. So to actually understand that the seeker is never ever going to succeed, is not going to find anything, is not going to find anything.

It's very devastating for the seeker because, well, okay, but this is who I am. What am I going to do now? So I can only seek because I am the seeker. You know, it's like the aspect of the mind that is, let's say, responsible for your family or children, the controlling aspect. Yeah, what can I do? I can only control. And so the seeker is seeking. And then maybe there is something bigger or better or broader or wider there that is also aware about this seeking mind, about that aspect that is hungry for answers or hungry for experiences. So this, this tendency to seek and imagine that there is something bigger and better somewhere out there, not here but there, and not now but in future, that it needs to be found, that very play of the mind can be witnessed.

Doesn't matter who is witnessing. I mean, who cares? That's the first step. When this activity is being known, obviously, this activity is not entangling completely. It's not like if I'm not fully identify as a seeker but I'm aware of the seeking activity, there is already a distance, a space and that seeking activity gets much, much, much less attention or energy because part of it is back there, looking at it. So instead of having the 100% of attention involved in making it real, now it's only half of it. So it kind of, the seeker and the activity of seeking gets a little bit more transparent, less solid.

It is, you can, ah, yeah, I see, it's just a joke. It's just, it's not real, it's not that solid. So this is, this is where the relief already comes. And this is where I realize, oh my gosh, the mind is seeking but I am not the mind. So the awareness of the seeking mind, of trying to find, watch, learn, I remember this was really funny. Even when I was seeing you in the beginning, I still had, back in Poland, a lot of people who were also spiritual seekers, including my, some of my family members. And I would hear something, oh my gosh, she will benefit from that.

Or I would read something, oh, this will be great one for this. Like really worrying about how am I going to teach it to the others? No, no, it's not for me. It's just to, for others. Others may need to hear it. There are no others. There are no others. Like really, unless this truth is realized in the immediacy of this here and this now, plenty of people playing the game that, oh, okay, I will relinquish my enlightenment and help all the other sentient beings to achieve liberation before. Oh, what a beautiful romantic dream. But hey, we're about waking up. It's not necessary. You don't preach to, gosh, if you didn't taste it, how can you tell it to anyone else?

What are you going to be teaching? Teaching separation? So I used to do that. I used to really get excited and say, what's the point about sharing it? Because that was so juicy. I mean, it was so beautiful. You don't want to contain it. You want to give it to everybody else. Shout it from the rooftop. But it was always, only, for me to hear. Others have their own life. They are taken care. They are also lived by the same intelligence. They have their own journey. It's really, it's, there's no need to worry about them because if they need it, if they're ready, find you they'll come or not who cares yes so that's that's what it really is about that the whole idea of trying to find something different and something else and later not here and not now something may be brighter or more prominent than the intimacy of of pure knowing closer than the face and hand and feet and and the breath so what could that be what else could that be like even the idea of locating is as locating it as an object that very core you called it core or self or whatever is so many names for this it can't be known how could that possibly be known if that's what's knowing you so to really to realize that the seeking is just activity happening in this moment in this immediacy and I and this immediacy I can't get to know this immediacy because this is what I am so I can't know anything more about myself than the fact that I am I can say okay I'm here or I'm now but that's already too much that's already too many words so I am what I am I can't find out ever never ever nobody knows none of the gurus Buddha's Jesus they don't have clue they never had clue what they are because to figure out what they are they will have to temporarily stop being themselves and there they're figuring out something that they are not so it's totally totally impossible yes so if we don't if we don't if we give up on the idea of finding I want to find myself I want to find out what I am Or maybe I am love, but I didn't realize it yet.

I didn't feel it yet. Now what am I saying? That I have the imagination of what should I feel or what should I find out? And I'm comparing that imagination with this moment right now and judging it as not it yet. Absolutely, yeah. If you have any idea that what is, is not it, how do you know? Obviously, it is coming from the mental noise comparison and analyzing. So if we drop all that mental noise, since in means says stop talking and thinking, and there's nothing you won't be able to know. Without the mental noise and the idea that as it is, it's not it yet.

What do we know? Everything that needs to be known in this moment is known in the immediate. I see the being is not being questioned. Whatever is happening on that screen of being on that screen of intelligent being or knowing Bob calls it activity of knowing the intelligence energy. It embraces the static end dynamic aspect both together because it is one. There is no separation. Separation is is the dream. And yeah, that's it. an illusion. For me what core, the reason the word core came up was that when people ask the serious questions like what is the most intimate thing, it's like there's a deep dive into where mind is not functioning and just a deep dive into and there's nothing to be said about anything.

Well, okay, I can't say more than that, but, and I forget what else came after that I was going to say. It's a good word. But that's what it was, that's what it's like here. So whenever people ask the deep questions, it's like, boom. Yeah. Okay. Nothing's, there's no, that's the phrase that came to mind before. There was no mind in action, you know, there's no, there's no thinking happening. There's no, yeah. And that's, that's what, why the word core came up for me. And that happens with serious questions. It just goes there. Yeah. And if you stay with it a bit longer, then nothing happens with face or anything out there.

It doesn't get seen as anything in particular. It's just some visual stuff coming in or whatever. And now how core can know it is the core. How the core can know itself. No thinking happening. No, impossible. There's no staring of the mind. That was the phrase that came up before. Yeah. There's no staring of the mind at all. In ancient texts, they say, I can't see itself. The eye, the instrument, the camera can't see itself. Yeah. So there's certainly no sense of itself or any of these other concepts. There's just nothing in there. Yeah. There's no, no staring. Tongue can't taste itself either. And yeah, all that, all that.

Just added in concepts for later. Yeah. So the eyes can't see themselves. No. All they can do is there's the seeing. There's tasting, touching, hearing. Yeah. That's all there is. There's nothing, like you can't see what's, what's being aware. You can only see what's being aware. Yeah. And that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can only see the actual doing of it, which is the seeing or hearing or tasting or touching. That's all. That's it. Yeah. There's nothing else. Yeah. They, they have also analogies of knife can't cut itself.

It can cut anything else, but not itself. The tooth can't bite itself. So this, in the same way, the core can't get to know itself. It can't. It's like, it would have to stop being a core to even, to even evaluate its shapes. Like dog doesn't know it is a dog. We know it. Okay. And now we have the idea, like, even though it's absolutely logical, the impossibility of verifying what I am is absolutely impossible. Logically impossible. And we still assume that, oh yeah, but I know what I am. I'm Katarina. I'm a person, I'm a girl, a woman from Poland. Oh gosh. I know so much.

Yeah, I know. And now the whole, the whole humanity goes up with the idea like this. Of course I know what I am. I know my beliefs. I'm ready to die for them. I defend them. If someone attacks my beliefs, I'll feel like they're attacking me and I'll strike back. Really understanding that whatever I know about myself is not, it can't possibly be what I am. And throwing it all to the garbage, throwing the idea of being a person, a woman or whatever, and just letting it go, of course it's a good functional belief. To use in the daily communication. But if you know it's a functional belief and not the absolute truth, that's no problem.

Yeah, well. So what are you? What are you? What am I? Yeah. I'm not the personal self for a start. That's what the problem arises from. Yeah, I know. And I point it out, you know, I can't tell you anything or teach you anything. I can't tell you. When you believe you are the mind, you say, my mind. But you know, my car, my house. You know you can't be the mind. When you say your body, you say my body. And the one we miss out on, as soon as you say myself, what are you relating to the personal self immediately? Yeah. But there's no personal self.

There's just self-aware, self-liberation, self-realisation. So we think we're gonna, this personal self is gonna be realised, gonna know. But if it's myself, That's a me. There never was one. It's a self. Self-shining, self-realisation, self-knowing. It's the one self appearing, patterning and expressing. It's everything. Can you be anything other than that? I can try. Be an actor. Yeah, go back and pick up the me again. When you say, a lot of talk about the me coming back. What comes back? Me, myself. The personal self. There never was a personal self. How can it come about? The personal self is an act, isn't it? It's an act that you put on to meet your idea of who you are.

Yeah. It's just the same as my body, my mind, you know. But you investigate this, you know. When you say my body, you say my car, you realise you can't be the car or the house. And then you realise from that you can't be the body. Do the same thing with the mind, you can't be the mind. But when it comes to myself, or me, this is the conceptual image we've got. And yet when you say, us children, we learn language. And we start memorising things, and we start segregating, organising, the whole computer starts working. And we have labels for absolutely everything. So it's only natural that you want to kind of have a label for yourself, and for mummy, daddy, whatever.

And now the identification comes about when this label is not a label, it becomes a reality, it becomes who I am. And this is just a little trick. That's all Ramana Maharshi is pointing to all the time. And he comes back to, all you can say, what is it? Who am I? What am I? You can only come back to I, I. You're not putting any personal, so I am the self. Yeah. Not a personal self. That's all there is. Mm-hmm. Did you want to say something? I was at a, I saw, I watched myself trying to assume a version of myself. Assume an identity that I've cloaked myself on to kind of appear more something.

And I watched that, I watched it clearly, and I thought, oh. But I saw, I almost like thought, hang on, there was something before that. There was something before I saw that. Mm-hmm. And I just assumed this version of a he that I need to be. Mm-hmm. And then I realized I'm not a he or a she. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just. Yeah. I'm just. Beautiful. And it, and it really helped me to go to really catch that, oh, there's something under the cloak. Mm-hmm. It's not the cloak. It's assumed entity has to go. Yeah. It's assumed. It's assumed. And it, and it separated me from me.

Mm-hmm. Isn't it beautiful to see how it comes about? I saw it, yeah. Ah, isn't it exquisite? Mm-hmm. How brilliant. Yeah. And that's almost necessary now that you can do it really, you can point you to it. Yeah. That's what it is. It's awesome. Yeah. You say it again, Bob, because you're whispering. Ah. Why? You gotta get one shot. You get one shot. Why is he whispering? That's it. Yeah. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap. I'm tired from my nap.

Bob. You get one shot. Oh, you're doing really well. I forget what it was now anyway. Yeah. Do you remember? Assumed identity has to go. Well, assumed identity was never there. Yeah. Yeah. But we go back in, out of habit for a while. Mm-hmm. But it's I-self. It's I know, I see, I feel, not the person. Mm-hmm. The person never was. Mm-hmm. So it's that pure seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, heart beating. Mm-hmm. And that's what I do. Mm-hmm. And I'm not a person. Mm-hmm. I'm not a person. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I'm a person. Mm-hmm. And I'm not a person. Mm-hmm. I'm a person.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is what you are. So what you, what you saw to us, like when you saw that you are actually assuming the identity, you are putting up the role. So you can also see it, you know, like the, uh, the speaker changes. Like you probably have a different sort of a personality when you talk to your mom and different when you talk to your friend or whatever. But also to actually see how you put on that, uh, sort of a jacket is same as you see the activity of the seeking mind. You're just aware of it. Mm-hmm. And... And he recognizes it. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a recognition or an insight into it which we've taken from other insights we've gained on the way, you know. And now the challenge is see it moment to moment. It is. Because this is so automatic. It doesn't mean that, you know, that Bob doesn't, 42 years or whatever, of abiding in a, in a state of non-identification, but still certain, you know, the positions of the mind or certain behaviors they still come about. But there is no mistake that there are just roles that are being played. There's no idea that, ah, this is me and I need defending. No, it's just a, it's just a code.

He doesn't go naked. He still wears his personality or he's, you know, he speaks to step-granddaughter or whoever. And this... So when, when the dream is known. When the dream is known as, as the dream, it is not a problem anymore. And interestingly, I got back from that retreat and yesterday a friend of mine who was quite distressed called me and wanted to catch up to, you know, talk about whatever he's going through. And I found myself naturally coming out of me the things that I hear here. It wasn't even me thinking about them. They were just, they were just coming out. So many things like you've said to me, it was just coming out.

And it was helping. It was helping this as it was helping this as well as that. It was, it was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. It was beautiful. That's what happened when you get off the way, like Bob says it, get off the way and then all that flow. That's what I also mean by, um, you come to the realization, just words are hard. Words are so difficult. But anyway, I'm going to just say. You can't just say, you can't just say. You come to the realization that you're being lived. You're actually being lived. You know, even the idea that, you know, the idea that there's a me here and I'm suffering and I need to seek something or I need to gain something or, or even I need to shed something, you know, like, uh, drop something.

All of that dialogue. Yeah. All of that internal dialogue and that so-called me that seems to be there, it's got absolutely nothing to do with a me or nothing to do with a, a self identity. If we can't, if we have absolutely no control over what goes on in here, no control at all, what goes on in here, then what the hell's responsible for it? Yeah. There's no me here that's doing that. And there's no me here yet. There's the same, there's thoughts and there seems to be a seeker here. The hell's doing that. The same thing that's growing a tree is doing it. The same thing that's breathing my body is doing it.

So you know, we, we come here and, and we think it's me that's coming here. We think it's me that's coming here to find something or to discover something. Or see through something. You know? And. Well, there, there seems to be something in me that doesn't take all this blah, blah, blah so seriously. You know, it's going on and I get caught in it and then. All of what you said just then, everything that you said just then. Comes into the realm of seems to be. It just seems to be. It's not actual. It seems. Seems to be. It seems to be someone here or there seems to be one here that, you know, that the chattering's died down and I'm not affected by it as much and so on and so forth.

All that dialogue, you're not doing it. None of it. How could you? Look if this is about non duality and you still think you're there, better get the fuck out of here. Because you're not, you know, you're not, you're not giving the primary, primary message non duality, which, you know, which means not to. Now, of course, I was saying that in jest, you know that. Yeah. Well, totally was. Totally was. I was totally saying that in jest. But the reality is. Even if you wanted to go, I bet you couldn't. I'll bet you couldn't. I'll bet you couldn't. And that's what I mean by you're being lived.

You're being bought here. Do you understand? It's not you making a decision. I'm going to go to Bob's tonight. There's no you there making that decision. I'm going to go to Bob's tonight. Just thoughts come up and the body moves with it. But we think there's a me here. Yeah. That's constructing all the dialogue and all the thoughts and everything that goes on. We're totally, completely being lived. And even when I hear myself say that, I say, no, that's not it either. Because there's nobody there that's being lived. It gets really, really difficult, really difficult to communicate this. That's why it's, you know, it's often said, you know, what I'm saying is a pointer only.

Don't take it as an absolute fact. You know, it's because it's not. It's like totally not. Yeah. But, you know, it's this, this, this game or this show that seems to be going on is that singularity. It is responsible for all of this. Has to be. It's the one you're doing, because there's only one, not two. There's the illusion of two, the illusion of two. That's why when we come here and we get asked to go looking for yourself, looking for the me, we can't find it. Hello. And often I, I use the terminology like this is a one 80. We come here trying to find something when what we should be doing is looking for no thing.

The exact opposite. opposite. The exact opposite. You know, 99 times out of 100, we need to do a complete, a complete turnaround. Then we'll be much closer, like, much, much closer. So I love it. I was crying before when you were sharing. It was beautiful. Just magical, you know. And I love that I can do that. I love that I can do that and experience that, you know. It's just so close and so accurate and yet right off as well. Because like I said, it's just, we can only point, you know. But I just love, I love that when you're where you are, you can really start to relax.

You know that's wrong when I say that, yeah? Yeah, definitely on that, on the weekend, on that retreat, just that moment of recognition of, oh, this anxiety to present a certain way is an act. And that there's something other than that enabled me to just not do that. And then there was just an ease. And I have felt it since. Yeah. Everyone's doing that. And it can be hard for others to recognise what's going on. Yeah, it can be hard for me too. Because you can be like in a passionate debate and it's just spilling out. And you know, and it's definitely, for me, like chunks of it anyway.

There's probably wee moments where ownership is going on in there. But a large part of them just hearing this stuff come out and massive debate. And, you know, and for me it might be, oh, I'm not coming from the head right now. That could be the debate. And they say, yeah, you are. You're talking. You're passionate. You must be coming from the head. And I just hear it. It's just, it's doing its shit. It could be, you know, it could be also feeling, like even now I can feel like, you know, all nervous. Kind of nervousness or just, yeah, adrenaline and hear the stuff. And even if there's a trigger urge to do the debate, that could be in their bump-in for a minute or bump-in and bump-in a few times.

And then for large part, you can just hear the stuff doing itself. And it's very confusing to the outside world. I've got set ideas about talking, still talking. It must be in the head. head, or head 24-7, or even the head quite often, because it really only just comes up and goes in every moment anyway. Because that does happen. We've lost the internet. That's live again. Is it? Oh, cool. That does happen in these circles. You'll hear people saying, oh, that person hasn't got a clue, or they're just totally in their head, or they're just sprouting whatever. Yes. Whereas the absolute truth of the matter is there isn't anyone there to be in their head.

To start with. So whatever is coming out of them is totally spontaneous and totally beautiful. It doesn't matter unless we have a judgement on it. Do you know what I mean? So whatever is functioning through here functions through there. And functions through somebody that we might say is totally asleep and doesn't have a fucking clue. We might say that. I'm not pointing to you. I'm pointing to the lucky chairs. Tony was full of shit. No, I dug into him and found his open spaces. Why not? That was the other Tony. Yeah, but I had a good chat with him after the meeting. Like a really, really good chat with him after the meeting.

Okay. And that just spontaneously... I don't normally speak to people like that. I don't. I don't. But that just spontaneously came at him. And I tried to say it in the most gentle way I could. In the most gentle... To get his attention. Really it was about getting his attention. And then seeing if I could hold him. And he was still, he was still loose. He took offence. I said, you're probably going to take offence. But whatever it is that's going on. And that's why Bob has these groups like this. Because he knows it. That it's all, whatever is coming out of any one of us.

It's all the one functioning. It's all that one intelligence energy. There is no me here or you there or you over there or there. So really, you know, from a so-called separate, separate perspective, you could say you're being lived. Get out the fucking way. You could sort of say there's a bit of an Enneagram six aspect in Australia. I don't know if it's relevant elsewhere. Suspicion and loyalty. So it's like you... If it's not being tested against experience the whole time. And you kind of know when no thought's happening. And then you know when you don't know. And then the rest of the time you're just in your head.

And you know that it's not very clear. But if you're not too secure about that, you want to know if the person telling you is trustworthy. So if there's a big trustworthy vibe going on, you know, it's like, oh, I've got to, you know, not trust or trust or not trust or not trust. I've got to ask who to trust. Who should I trust? And so I think it could be just a bit of that particular line of conditioning. Could have quite an impact on people looking for people in their heads or not. Yeah. I mean, I needed to... I don't know. I just... I don't know.

It was different for me. I just felt... Yeah. There's the coming... They're saying the right sort of stuff. It matches. I like it. It goes up to the main principle. It's beyond their mind. Are they saying it matches that? Yeah, it does. It's all good. It feels good. So I just go to those people. It's self-inquiry rather than body because that seems to work here. They're saying the same stuff. So as far as I'm concerned, they're coming from the same space. It seems to work. Yeah. It's not just me coming from the same space. It seems to trigger the same openings. In me, I'm really happy with all the people I go to.

They're doing the same thing. Beyond that, I don't care. But also... Because I'm here. Even the idea of evaluating. I remember I've seen it in this group. There was a lot of people here who considered themselves enlightened and Bob enlightened and nobody else. Nobody. Particularly women. They can never get it, ever. That's a Hare Krishna thing. Really? Yeah. Only women can't get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. But anyway, individuals like that, they are in constant projection because, well, there is only one and there is only one reality expressing. So if I see something in any one of you, how do I recognize it?

Because it is here. So I can see reflection. So the whole world is basically a reflection because it's holographic. It's one intelligence. It's no different here and there. So if I accuse everyone of being unenlightened, obviously I'm projecting my own confusion. If I'm accusing or I'm seeing everyone who is already free, there is nobody there. There is nobody here, nobody there. Yeah, obviously that's the projection also. But the funny thing is like what you said right now, people are coming from the point of evaluating and judging. So now I'm listening to Toni and I have the idea in my head how the enlightened or unenlightened or whatever speaks and I'm comparing it in the head.

Does she qualify or not? And now I'm coming up with the conclusion. Oh, she's coming from the head. So this is really a long, thick mental process is going on that will bring me to the conclusion that she's coming from the head. So obviously this is a projection. She's waiting for her time. It's a projection because I have no way to know where you're coming from. I have no way to know. You can ask people. I think that's where the asking doesn't quite happen. The assumption happens before the asking. Something I find not a lot of collaboration goes on in my experience in Australia. Maybe it's just something that you ask them.

But you're sort of implying that you're controlling the intelligence of the person. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make sure that I'm not just trying to make a suggestion. I'm trying to make sure that I'm not just trying to make a suggestion. I'm trying to make a suggestion. But you're implying that you're controlling the first place. But Bob wanted to say something. Let's try to recognise the art of what they call the art of listening. When we're listening, trying to take it in through the head and all the rest, there'll be conflict there all the time because you'll have your concept about whoever's speaking.

They'll have their concept about you. And head to head, they don't communicate. When it comes to the heart, the core of your being, which is not the head, and it resonates in that. Then you jump with it and it resonates when it's yours then. That's what I call heart to heart. And you all know what that is because you've all had that experience before when you felt or heard a sad story from someone, you'll say my heart went out to them. What are you saying that for? Because you know it was more than just a thought construct, it was coming from the essence. Heart to heart, there is communication.

Head switched off for a bit. The head switches off for a bit. I know full well about when I'm actually... I know full well when communication is coming out of here. See the way I'm trying to... When communication is coming. Coming out of where? You haven't got a fucking leg to stand on really. But I know full well that when I'm, if what comes up for me is to hone in on somebody and get into communication with them. I know. without any doubt that I'm not talking to that person. I know. And how is that expressed? How is it expressed? Through a resolution? Yeah. Through a resolution.

Yeah. So that, so, and you said at the beginning of the talk, which is beautiful, you know, I'm not talking to anybody. And I know that when I'm speaking to people, I absolutely know that, you know, it's, and for, and just recapping on what Kat just said, you know, for one to sit in judgment as to whether somebody has arrived or not, or is coming from their head, or has got it, or hasn't got it, is a direct indication that the person that's having those judgments is stuck there themselves. Absolutely stuck there themselves. Because I would never say to somebody, you haven't got it. You're not awake.

It's the most absurd thing to say when you know there's no one there to be awake, and there's no one there to get anything. You know it. So, you know, you're constantly trying to, if you like, the communication is constantly trying to bypass the me. Bypass, bypass that self-identity. As best you can. And at the end of the day, at the end of the day, when I'm communicating with somebody, I'm just talking to myself. Yep. I think it maybe can happen without those judgments. And if I see, sorry, and if I see suffering, it's a natural inclination to want to help. It's, because that's me suffering.

Because we're the same. We're completely the same. That one essence. We're completely the same. Absolutely completely the same. So this is, you know, coming here isn't about, I know I keep repeating myself, but it's so simple. Coming here is not about trying to get something. It really is about trying to lose something. It really is. Because we're told you already are that. Right? Right. You're already that. All right. So what's getting in the way of me realizing that? Me is getting in the way of real, of that realization. Ah, that's hard to understand. Yeah. So that's why we get set on a path of self inquiry.

Me inquiry. Who am I? Who am I? Where am I? What am I? And in the end, in the end, you discover there's no one there. And in the absolute seeing, absolute seeing that there's no one there, guess where you end up? Right here. But without all that. Without all that, that dream. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a. It's a very complex idea. And the closer we get to that, in my experience, was the less complicated everything got. It, it, it kind of, kind of dovetailed in, I guess. I don't know how else to explain it. But in the end, rather than having to deal with, you know, all the content of what I thought my me was thinking, especially about itself.

especially about itself, and that can get really noisy and loud. Rather than that occurring, the closer you get, as Carol said, so close, the closer you get, it just literally comes down to, who is this? Real simple question. Where is this? What is this? Instead of, there's a me here, and there's chaos going on in the thinking. So you get that space up, so you're not wearing all the thinking anymore, you actually get some space up, and you can see it. Okay. Then you kind of get a bit stuck. It's like, okay, well, maybe. Then you'll see all that stuff that we've been running on, and if you're 50 years of age, then you've been running on an accumulation of 50 years of conceptual ideas and experiences that we carry around and wear.

And that is who I am, or that is who you believe yourself to be, or who you come. And it's in the seeing of that, just the seeing of that. And then you kind of saw all that, and I was of the understanding that once I... I saw that, absolutely once I saw that, somehow I was going to wake up. And I bloody didn't. I didn't. Because there was still a me here, claiming ownership of, I see that. Yeah, I see that. Oh, I know that. Yeah, I get that. And that was that. I've talked about it before, that... And I use the word core, it's a silly word to use, but...

Yeah, it feels like a core, it feels like there's a me here. You know? And in the end for myself, that's what I was left with. Just that, and only that. And all the attention was just now focused on what is that? And all the other stuff that I used to live with, that chaos, dropped away. Yeah. Just like... It just... Dropped away. So then there was just interest in, okay, what's happening here? What's really... And things got much simpler. Much simpler. Less chaotic, less conceptual. It was... I suppose you'd call it true insane. True, in quote, real inquiry. All right, what... Where is this?

Where is this? Where does it land? Where is this? And we're kind of told to do that when we first come around, but it's... In my experience, that was really difficult to do that when I had so much noise going on. And so many different ideas and beliefs and concepts and stuff going on. The more gap... Distance I got from that. And then... Yeah, like I said, I just got to a point where it was... Okay, now what? Now what? And that's when I saw... And the reason I call it a core me is because the last thing it hung on to was my sense of presence, my sense of beingness here.

It's the last thing that it hung on to. And because of that, it felt like it had a core. Because it was so identified with that awareness or that sense of presence. So identified with it. And I had no idea that that was going on. I was too busy trying to let go of all the conceptual stuff, you know, to deal with something as organic as that, if you like, or something as real as that. And then it was just... Okay. And things got quiet. Things got real quiet. It was just, all right, where is this? What's going on here? Where is it? What's at place?

And I literally just sat really quietly with that and only that. And to be really aware of that and only that, I had to be really present. Really present. Really present. And then the presence... And in doing that, it grew. It opened up. And I just... It just drops off. It just dropped off. Completely. Dropped off. The identity, that personal... So when you were really present, was all the chatter... No. Gone. Gone. Because I... It was like... What's the analogy? Picture an acre of land, flat land, and, you know, there's a stone, a white stone placed, you know, every six inches apart. And I was turning over rocks, fucking left, right, and center.

Yeah. Yeah. And I finally got to... It's just an analogy. I finally got to the last few stones. And by the time I got there, which was what I'm talking about here, by the time I got there, that, or noise, if you want to call it that, that... Mind chatter, if you want to call it that. Conceptual ideas and beliefs and so on, if you want to call it that. I completely lost interest in it. Just... I just completely... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely lost interest in it. There was a... And I didn't do any of that. So you have to understand that. I didn't lose interest in it.

Yeah. There was just a loss of interest in it. A loss of... So it just wasn't coming up anymore. And then that last stone was this. And all the other stones, they're all gone. And that was just all conceptual ideas that I was trying to unravel. Trying to get my head around. You know. And good luck with that one. Like really, good luck with that one. But it seems we have to do it. Perhaps not everybody, but I did. I did. I had to exhaust my understanding. I had to exhaust... The conceptual. I had to exhaust... I had... Duality had to be exhausted. Duality had to be exhausted.

Just... Just did. And... And you come to see for yourself that you're never going to find the answer in there. It's just not there. You're never, ever, ever going to find... I know that. ...the answer in there. So it's... And you see that and you come to that. Then there's a resignation of that or like almost a surrender to that. Okay. And that can be a bit scary. It can be a bit daunting. Because to me it goes, now what? Fucking what will I do now? Where do I go now? Like really? It can be... It was for me. It's like, shit. Now what? You know.

And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... Because there wasn't anything to do anymore. There really wasn't anything to do anymore. And I was just left with this little call. This little call. What's that? What's going on there? So all the other racket just... Dropped off, which made it much easier. But the only way I could be really aware or come to that place of... Being aware of... Being aware of that... call was to be really really here really bloody present and that all just happened all I'm doing right now is sharing what occurred here yeah that's that's all what occurred and I see people getting stuck in the same stuff you won't very often hear me talking about what it's you know trying to describe the oneness trying to describe the emptiness I'm Maury I seem to be more bent on what's that terminology jump jumping in jumping into the one of the like you know what they call those pits they have on the front line trenches thank you yes you seem very intense I don't seem to have that intensity and that just that's just how this seems to be functioning I seem to be more interested in jumping in the trenches with people yeah even though I know there's not a trench but I've I've seen my inclination is to jump in the trenches with people and kind of have it out you know rather than you know sit from some high lofty place and people ask you questions and you just say you know you are nothing you don't exist doesn't help doesn't help might help some that kind of dialogue might help some but that's not how I I seem to be manifesting or functioning yeah it was a big rap wasn't it very sorry about that that first bit um like we were at the beginning of that was um about the judgment can you remember people coming from the judgment I was kind of what was going on here was you know you know and there are times when I think people don't read you but they're not they could be from a very open place like there's been times where like um Bob was leading like attempting to lead me through a step-by-step process which just didn't apply to me because I'd already gone to that call where nothing was going on but he couldn't read that in my features or whatever I don't know I don't know you probably can't remember as long time ago and I've been over a year or whatever I've seen it many times yeah you've seen it he is offering and you either open or you're not no I've I've if you think you're not open no no no no no it was just a step-by-step process like for me like you know I've done the full stop it happened there was nothing being made of anything and then you were saying so there's no Santa Claus and then you're saying okay so imagine for a minute the Santa Claus and I look can't it doesn't just doesn't come up can't find Santa but you're saying no no you try looking for Santa thinking maybe I'm in another place and no Santa just not coming up I'm telling you he's not coming up and so then it seemed like I don't know what was going on for you but it seemed like you were thinking I just wasn't getting what you're talking about yeah I heard I knew the process I it just I couldn't find Santa and it's like this wasn't going to make up a Santa just to try the process it just wasn't Santa wasn't coming and and and it was like oh I can't remember okay if you don't want to try you know so I mean and I'm not assuming Bob's coming from anywhere in particular I'm just assuming he's seeing me coming from a different place maybe than I am I don't know no he's just offering it's the same way so you can say so all I'm saying is he can't also understand you anyway exactly and so I'm not and so who's me to assume like you know you're saying sometimes you can feel a resonance that feels like a head resonance and so that way you see that or whatever and but there's so many different things going on um that um it could just be some people read body language in one way and not another from their conditioning and then you don't know you know there's no knowing there's a whole lot of things twixt heaven and earth like they say um yeah and it doesn't matter you may have your landlord telling you the same story for like 50 times and you are sick of sick and tired of it but you're still polite and giving her a space and she's speaking and you're listening and someday you may just think about something else and not listen but then then also I noticed a propensity here is not to make up something to please somebody it just it just doesn't make sense because the the conditioning is to come to some mutual um collaboration of what's really going on you know wherever as far as that can ever be done obviously it can't be um because that's not true you know um so it's just it's just and I guess the only reason this is coming up is because again the propensity here is to look for the baby and not the bath water so there's many times the baby is actually what's there the baby is listening and seeing bath water but it's still the baby it's not bath water watching for what bath water it's not a filter of that it's maybe some other things about our general communication as human beings that will be seeing something different as to what's going on you know and and it's like Tiger Woods has to spend a thousand ten thousand hours to bat you know to whatever he does well and add himself out of the way does it better but it doesn't mean another person who with no self recognition a lot of the time can you know do whatever with the golf ball yeah it's just um they may not be able to drive the airplane either yeah so the assumption that this even in some people have real you know you quiz them and go yeah I've got real you know noticings tenants used to notice when they are coming from here like you would give a good example before and and generally people have got all sorts of rationale stories of real energy resonances all sorts of things happening but nobody ever bloody will asks them they just make assumptions and go away on their own way and and you know of course none of that really matters either it's just an aspect of human what you think you're talking about you're that anyway no matter what you talk to think about or feel or taste or touch or smell you're only that anyway and it's just you can talk forever and it's not to find anything or gain anything either that this is coming out it's just there is some interest in some parts of humanity to communicate in more efficient or less efficient ways it doesn't have a value better or worse or any sort of value that's totally understood it's just there's a propensity to want to do certain things happening yeah and like you like some people call that personality when no self is present you know I don't know I'm not saying no often there's a lot of stuff here because it just cuts in all the time there's no looking for it it just bloody will turns up all the bloody times triggered I'm triggered a hell of a lot by the environment yeah but this is all to be noticed it's like you see the nature of dog is to bark nature of cat is to meow and nature of people is to try to connect or judge or whatever and yeah whatever life presents at the moment that's what it presents whether there is understanding like nature of Bob is to point whether it is taken or is hurt or is not well it doesn't and so no one can make assumptions about where Bob's coming from in that moment you know that's just another thing and so that's where sometimes I just think there's a filter there's another aspect of the filter of all this bath water everywhere here can't listen to anything it's not safe you know and it's just lucky that there is a kind of I I have a certain propensity to just why I don't know the junction Tony does it experience check against experience check against experience and half the time I'm going to totally get it wrong but it's a preference here is to check against experience and not care who said it and sometimes that won't be the best way to receive it but I think I like it and it's worked quite well so I'm just happy enough with it I'm just leaving it as well obviously I can't do anything about it that's just how it's happening it's a great freedom in not in not because it reminds me about zogshan Tony when he says no no I'm not I'm not listening to Advaita I disagree with Advaita I'm blocking my ears when I hear you guys speaking I'm just putting all the effort not to hear it because I don't want to be messed up that's not the freedom kind of but then even there he's got a weenie freedom too and and that is that I totally agree with him about they're not being I don't the step of um awareness as it's spoken like if it's a place where no thing is at the full stop I get it no thing so awareness for me doesn't register and maybe because I haven't abided and you know but see it does it doesn't matter yeah I know that you have to defend yourself all the time against something that you may hear that's not a freedom like oh yeah no I'm not going to be listening to what people saying because that's true yeah because when you're free you just let the moment unfold as it is without any trying to alter modified correct fix it do anything about it just relax into it even though they may say something that you disagree or may say something that will confuse you that's life confusing itself that's okay too I suppose my point is that the bath water filter then assumes he's just doing that all the time and that's all there is and yet you can talk to him after you can talk to him about something and you see the freedom but it might be in that particular situation only very small aspect he is open thoroughly in in that moment um yeah see my experience with all this stuff and of course it doesn't apply to everything in life but it does definitely apply with non-duality the less you think the better the less you analyze compare the less you bring up any ideas that this may do harm or not harm or this may help or this may point it in less ideas the better because well of course it doesn't apply to any sort you've got to think what you want to get but with non-duality the less thinking the better ultimately if there is no thinking then you you know that that's a freedom so any analyzing noticing is you know it's happening but the naming of the noticing is already well if it's also it's also happening but it's already too much it's already putting the veil over the natural functioning even the process of labeling and of- course it's naturally happening nobody does it nobody does absolutely anything at all but this type of an addiction this type of habit is actually making it it's complicating it because the simplicity see you're not analyzing breathing of of of your lungs or circulating blood in the body or digestion you don't really have to think about much of it but there are people who do there are people who have different obsessions like washing their hands every five minutes and then obviously they're so busy in the hand with in the head with with over you know covering up the natural functioning with understanding naming labeling and analyzing and comparing and evaluating it then it gets kind of buried like the very basic functioning doesn't require any word or any sentence or any thought and when we had a discussion about this you had another you found a way of describing because often when I hear that I'm talking about another area in the middle and I think you found that and you found another way of describing it I can't remember because often when I hear pointers that reveal it actually drops stuff for me rather than ads and I suppose it's when you come across something says oh what was that phrase from your childhood so it seems like a psychological investigation but really it's like oh my god yeah and then it seems to go for me yeah yeah , it may happen which is an opening and that happens a lot it just seems to happen a lot outside of satsangs and satsangs it's the full stops that come up a lot outside it's the blocks that get dropped off a lot which get in the way constantly off the gaps so it's been really successful but there's no me trying to do it that's not it's not seen like that at all it's just popping up these questions it gets answered for some reason just happens da da da and then they're always always very interesting and they're always very juicy and exciting there's nothing about that it's actually really helpful they just and I can't say that one helped another it's just a package appears they just seem to appear answers seem to come up and then suddenly it's not flooding my head so much these kind of things you know it's like there's a witnessing of something about to go it's come to the light and it goes and yeah but does it ever happen without without the story like without with without any labeling like in a way that you could say oh something just dropped off but I don't know yeah, it's just a way that you could say oh something just dropped off but I don't know no I didn't I don't know Christian never comes up yeah because it's just happening there's no question of it like I said I don't have that loudly suspicion thing is just turns up and then it goes and there's nice more more nothing more to it but um it actually takes very little of my time mmm because nothing more happens to it there's no there's no suspicion there is just whatever comes up comes up so and so that's there's no real knowing what if anything caused anything but it just quite often is in the bundle.

This apparent exploration of psychology, but it just turns up in a bundle. It's kind of exposed and sometimes clear day drops off a fair bit. Otherwise, it's just lessening of power in it. And this just seems to be in the mix very strongly here. And it just comes, done its dash, gone. And it might pop up a couple more times over the next day. Oh, yes, right. Yeah. And it's just like a release because it's, I don't know. I can't remember too well. These are all faulty memories. Yeah. This may not be your case, but there is a danger. See, the psychoanalysis of psychology is all about digging in the patterns and finding the pattern and releasing the pattern.

It might be not your case at all. But there are people who spent the fortune and 20 years of psychoanalyzing and digging and digging. And digging and letting go and letting go. And they are absolutely certain that without that sort of a process, they will be bound forever. And the truth is, that's absolutely ridiculous assumption. Because by digging and looking at all these patterns, you may only develop the conviction that, okay, I have to see it for the last time before it goes. And in that way, you're never going to get free. Yes, those thoughts don't come up. The extra thoughts don't come up. They're just whatever that process happens then.

Yeah. I'm just like, it might come up. Some very much owned me thought about, you know, I've got to cull my emails or life will be bad in the future. Emails get culled and, oh, this is kind of interesting. It's popped up. It's a real feeling that it's just whatever was there was in front of me and that's it. You know, there's no searching for an interesting thing that might do that. There's no searching for an interesting thing that's just, oh, that's interesting, landed on this one. And not even really thought after that. And then it's like, oh, this looks like it might be crap, me thought, you know, owned thought.

Mm-hmm. And then it's like... Oh, okay. And just seems to notice, I'm noticing there's a following of this question through. Oh. And there's a checking in with memory or whatever. There's something happening and then it's like, oh, that's revealing. That was all buried. Mm-hmm. And then I actually don't have any good memory of what happens after that. But the principle is that generally it means I have noticed to be less crap, of that crap coming up here all the time, which I can see. But when you see the process of checking... What checking process? Yeah, you say, oh, the checking in is happening and the revealing is happening.

Yeah, so I don't... It just pops up. There's just... The checking... Words pop up in front of me off the computer. Mm-hmm. And it's like, oh, what did your parents say? Memory appears. Mm-hmm. And I'm noticing of some kind of thing that's mentioned there. I really don't remember in details. Mm-hmm. But... Yeah. Examples come up and then it's like, oh, that just explains some behavior. And then for some reason, it just doesn't... It's not prominent anymore. Mm-hmm. It's like something's noticed and it's like, oh, God. It's almost like I was worrying about that stuff when I didn't know about it, you know? Uh-huh. And it was just coming over and over in the head.

And then I... At the time, I do have much better ways of describing this. I don't have any memories coming up, fresh memories. So they're just not coming. But... Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah. It just... It's definitely the opposite of letting go when that stuff happens. Oh, cool. It's... Yeah. It's lovely. Cool. Oh, gosh. I'm grateful I don't have to go through that. What's that? No, it's great. I know. It's pleasurable. Oh, I'd love to have a spontaneous awakening, but it's great. It's like... I'm sure it's a lot of... It's not about pleasure. It's not about distraction. It's the opposite. It's clarity. I know. Yeah. That's your definition of clarity.

My definition of clarity is completely non-conceptual. There's no words. Yeah, but it's not conceptual. I'm not being conceptual. I'm trying to be conceptual. Yeah. Yeah. And what I'm trying to do is explain a process... Yes. ...whereby something just goes and it just turns up and there's no looking for it. Yeah. There's no... I don't have concepts around it. It's just... Yeah. Just... Nothing can be said about it. Just... But even the awareness of the pattern going and changing and moving, there is still a content there. There's still a content playing out. And that's okay. Because I have a content playing out and it's in that way.

It's not thought about, oh, yeah, I do this. I do this pattern. It's really important. I do it. Oh, I've got to let everyone know this is the way to do it. There's none of those words turning out. No, no, no. But the content of releasing of different sort of seeing, noticing, checking, there is activity. Yeah. Yeah. And cool. Yeah. There's no me there doing it. No, I never said it was that you were doing it. No, no. And no sense of it either. No, no, no. I didn't. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But it's... I just say I'm so grateful I don't have to go through that because it just seems so exhausting.

It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's not. It's the opposite. It's releasing. It's not. It's the opposite. It's releasing. For you. But for me it is. Yeah, because I don't do more with it. With different patterns. I don't do more with it. There's no more happening with it. There's no, oh, is that the right one? Is that the wrong one? I can't imagine what the other stuff you might do with it would be, but it just stops at each noticing. And this is not noticing anything.

It's not noticing salty, huh? All right. That's it, you know. Cool. And it's gone. The salt's gone. And it's gone, salt's gone. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, what might be exhausting, because it's very much goes to nothing, you know? Compare all that to absolutely nothing. Yeah, that's what turns up after. Let me finish. Compare that to, I'm not talking about that's what turns up after, I'm talking about that not turning up at all. Just still. Just completely quiet. Well here's the thing, it's only when this sort of process happens that that reduces, the chatter reduces. Understand. Yeah. I understand. That's what I'm saying.

I understand. And what Cat's saying. And I'm in the same boat as Cat is... Yeah, that flashes in all the time what you're saying, that flashes in all the time, full stops, yeah. I know. They flash in all the time as well, at different times from this, and then there's a lot of time where there's just me in the head. Yeah. Yeah. And... It just appears to be going that way from both ends. Sure, sure. So what, basically what you're saying is, you're just witnessing it all happening. You don't have an opinion on it. It's not a witness of it, it's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

It's appearing in consciousness then. Can we say that? It's appearing, it's appearing. It's activity. Yeah. So all that stuff is just appearing. Yeah. Yeah. And... It's just, where I sit, it's really quiet. Nothing goes on. Yeah, I get that. Like, absolutely nothing goes on. I get that. I've enough burst to know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know where to go with you. It's nowhere to go. It's not great. It's working well. I see more pointers at the end. That's good. Yeah. I just hear, I'm still hearing that even though there's the communication that comes out of your mouth, that there's no one here, no one judging, you know, that's kind of okay.

But then sometimes I hear you say, you know, and then sometimes I am here, you know, and I'm... Oh, most of the time. Right. Okay. And I am slammed into here. I don't, you know, I... It seems like there is a process. Yeah. Of getting somewhere. What is the... No, those thoughts don't come up about am I getting somewhere. Let the... What is the saga that I've started? Give up the process. Yeah. Give up the process. Yeah. Yeah. Give up the process of the thinking principle. Give up the process. Like completely give up the process. Like... Yeah, that's... The thoughts about processes aren't really coming up.

Is that later? Like... I understand. I understand. Yeah. But there's still processing going on. I don't understand because I think you're speaking at that big thought level and it's not like that. No, no. I'm talking about from what you're communicating. Yeah. What you're sharing. But you're getting better, are you? You need to describe what you mean by this process that I think you guys are thinking of. Yeah. Yeah. Letting go more and more. What I mean by process is just something popping, bang, bang. It's not a process. It's just bang, bang, bang, bang. But a week ago, before a few things got released, it was worse.

So now you're getting better because more of more things released. I don't care about that. That's just a random statement. It doesn't mean... It's not a value. I don't care if it gets... There's no... It's not real if it gets better or worse. It's just occasionally for fun. And this is where it's just fun. Okay. Like every week or two or three is like, yeah, it seemed to be less worse. But now I'm worried about shit. I mean, you guys say this stuff. It's just nothing. It's just... And it means nothing. It's not a checklist. It's none of that. There's no thoughts about, oh, there's a checklist and it starts there and it looks like that.

And I have to tick off weekly. Those sorts of phrases don't... I see. ...Aren't there. Yeah. It's really difficult to describe it. It's very light. And the way you describe it, you just use so many words and descriptions that it feels like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I know. It's just... But here it's not a bother at all. It's like... What's a bother? Yeah. What's a bother is going into fear about issues and that's when I'm in my head. That's the heavy stuff. That's the exhausting stuff. It's the storying. That's the exhausting stuff. This other stuff is just really a description of what's going on. The other stuff, yeah, off in the head, worrying about what people think about my work and then I won't survive.

That's the exhausting checklists about... Can I ask a question? ...My future survival. That's exhausting. A question. Yeah. Why... Why... Why do I have an interest in the description of stuff? That's just my programming at... Understand. Yes. Yes. I understand. ...Sturry there. I totally get it. Yeah. I totally get it. But it's that description, and I'm going to call it process, that's noisy. It's not quiet. It's not still. It's not calm. And I think that the reason that it seems to be... Look, I might be right off base, but just from what I hear you say, I think that the reason that it... There's this perpetuation of clearness and then meanness and clearness and meanness and awareness and then inness and analyzing and so on and so forth, is that you're still putting way too much pressure on yourself.

Yeah. And you're putting way too much attention on the description, not the actual thing that is happening, but the description itself. And I think just from hearing you share, and I've been around you for a little while now, that's what I hear. Like there's an interest in the description as opposed to the actual thing. Okay. Well, ask me, I'll give you four answers to that. If I remember them all now, because they came up as you went. Yeah. So one, there is a habitual defensive mechanism to my parents describe why I shouldn't be belted, and it always happened anyway. So these are the little ones.

Like I noticed when I was in a transmission last night, there was just phrase after three or four times, a certain description of what just happened will come up, and then the next one will pop in. And it felt like there was nothing under that, but it was just constant, because there was enough triggering in the system that these were happening over and over and over. And then afterwards, there was a lot of peace when I was out of that sort of intense situation, if you know what I mean, and just chatting in the car. If it remembered, if remembering came up, then there would just be nothing going on with a bit of conversation being heard happening.

And the few times that did get remembered, it was very accessible, but no chatting, nothing there. And then, so another thing is at times it's actually a very peaceful thing, because I'm describing a moment when nothing was going down, best possible way poetry, and it takes me back to that moment when no thing, it's a full stopping. So this description actually then becomes a full stopping process, which is very opening and relaxing and beautiful. And then it doesn't happen so much because the bigger stuff is sort of being dropped, if you know what I mean. There seems to be not much time in the life that's left.

There's not much time in the life that this is turning up. So it's a mechanism that was perpetuated from whenever, that just turns up and shows up, and that can just be seen as turning up and showing up. So there's not the exhausting, any doing anything with it. And it's fascination almost, you know. And there were two others and they may... So it's really just a bio thingy, it's really just a thing happening, it's seen that way. You know, it's really just not seen by anyone or to anyone, it's just turning up as part of life. And so whether it's a releasing thing or whether it's just a typical thing coming in, which does have an energy with it, a charge, because obviously there's a wee moment where it's a trigger, a triggered thing, so there's ownership saving a self of some sort.

And then... So all those phrases were seen almost from the beginning, which is fairly rare here, to see just all the stuff coming out right from the beginning, all of it, they've been caught right... But obviously right, right at the beginning it was a self protection thing not seen, you know, a trigger, a self moment. And yeah, it's really just seen as the stuff of life happening. It's not... It's not... It's not a separate description, it's not seen as a separate thing. I hear it as just the stuff of thought going on. I don't see the stuff of life at all, like at all. Yeah.

Or like... No, it is, it is, it really is just that stuff of life is what comes up, that's that, that's all you get. Or you get the peaceful side of it. Yeah, but that stuff that you're talking about, that stuff of life, is just thoughts. Yeah, exactly, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. And they seem to come up as descriptions in this system, so a bunch of other thoughts aren't coming up. And the bigger ones used to come up, but as these things, aha moments got noticed, now it's down to the really persistent, and they're generally descriptions, and there's a lot of description. And also, these descriptions are very often about what happened when you were listening to Nemala, or whoever it is, or what happened yesterday, or what happened...

It is not really this immediacy. Very often you do come up with the inside. I usually mention other people just as a social thing, it's not really to do with the anxieties here, you can take that one really lightly, that one's not... There's something going here. It's more to do with being heard or not being heard by you guys, so I mention somebody. Yeah, yeah. But I don't care about that one really. Yeah, look, there's... But it's the past. It's when people here don't hear me, that's the one that gets to me, that's the trigger. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's what I was just going to talk about, you know.

Yeah. What I'm getting is that... Well, it's like, you know, somebody says something beautiful, and then you say, well, I'm happy to say it, they said it, it's not really... It's just I love that that came from there, and I'm just saying it like that for that. It's not a big deal. Just try and stay still for a sec. I'm not un-still, that's the thing, see? The trigger, trigger, trigger, push the trigger. I'm sure, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm being... Quiet, quiet. I love you, okay? Yeah, yeah. I think you're awesome. Everyone loves you. I so think... But you're judging I wasn't still behind that just then.

Well, you weren't, because I was trying to... Because you were in silence. No, I was trying to talk, and you were talking over me. That's what I mean by, just be still. But you said something... And you're doing it again. You said something that I already told you a million times isn't the case, and you assumed it anyway. But that's fine, keep going, I want to hear you say it. It's stillness and silence, don't they... Stillness is on the level of movement, and silence on the level of sounds. Yeah. Okay. So what I get from you is that there is a core there. You know how we say, the core of the body, the core of our consciousness, the core of the mind, and the core of our heart.

Yeah. The core of the mind is the voice of the body. The voice of the body. The voice of the body. You know that, isn't it? Yeah. The voice of the body. The voice of the body, yeah. the level of movement and silence on the level of sounds yeah okay so what I get from you is that there is a core there you know I was talking about that core okay there is a core there and that core there for you feels quite threatened quite let me please try not to speak just for a second thank you it just okay it feels threatened and even in like and you say it you're quite and that's that's what I love about you is you just say it as it is and I love that you're so incredibly honest I admire it I really do but I hear you stuck I absolutely do hear you stuck and and I think it's to do with what I was talking about earlier that that there's a lot of people who are not aware of the fact that there's a there's something in there that you're not separating from and that's something that you're communicating from is this entity that you know got treated like it did by its parents or whatever and then and these thoughts will come up and that'll come up and it's just but it's just a natural thing that comes up and then you know you also kind of put it out there a little bit you know you know don't challenge me too much because I don't like it I get I get a bit threatened by that I'm saying this from love okay great it's just purely my observation right off that's okay take what you want yeah but just in your dialogue and what you communicate and what you're actually saying from where I sit and from and from what and from what i hear and from what i see and you admit it there is still this sense of and i think you're still caught up in letting go of the content that just happens and that happens and yeah yeah still kind of in a state of being or trying to be indifferent to whatever it is that might come up or not come up and then there's clarity there's not clarity or there's a little bit of chatter or i can see there's a little bit of pattern there from you know when i was a kid and you know and that pops up and i absolutely believe that your me is sitting there witnessing all that and you don't know it yet you actually don't know it yet it's really get the opposite of all of that you know so you hear what i am saying and you're saying no it's the other and i'm just all i can do is look and and honestly you know um it just triggers in and it's it's triggers in and it's just a thing there's nothing there every i look constantly especially these situations there's a constant checking and it's just it just goes to no thinking about it there's no thing there it's never seen this i there's no potential for an entity because you're not thinking this is enough that's the experience here but there is a preoccupation with yourself and your safety yeah but it's just seen also as triggered triggered thoughts body reactions i can just the raft of stuff comes in and does all that stuff and sometimes it's not seen because i'm heavily in the story in the bubble you know sometimes for sure but when not in the bubble the little aspects can be felt and and they're coming in and you have to add in there's not a point of viewing from but i can see that popping in a bit after if you know it just really is sensation floating it's just right now you know there's wee moments where there's a bit of oral memory of a bit of voice heard but not not right through just the same voice you know disembodied um there's just things coming in and out and there really is no little thing in the middle there's just it's just not there it's really not yeah well that's that's and it's not hidden i'm pretty sure it's not hidden it feels very free it's in that respect yeah yeah that's the other times it's right in there of course you know i'm just running there you're the only one who can actually verify you feel totally fulfilled happy and free and if you don't have any any issues problems or fears as you say it's getting less and less mattering that the reactions did happen and the you know the the bits that normally used to be bad they feel less bad and less important but they still come up yeah that's definitely more and more noticeable if if absolutely nothing i said resonates then take that i mean i get i love the way you explained it you know you started a a , couple weeks back really saying what really went on for you and i can see the aspects how that matches here and i can sort of see some conclusions i just haven't gone to and maybe i'm not a very physical person so that it's all been very you know so it's really not been a entity of this when person first said it wasn't to do with the mind or when they first said um what's there when you're not thinking about it before the thing switches in there's no little chunk anywhere it's just and that stays with me for a certain length of time that we're here before you know it comes in there's no chunk there no i scene feels so like it's not gonna happen to put one in there to please people oh i'm not gonna do what well i don't know it just doesn't seem to be wanting to do that well you just said there's not turning out there's times when you know there's no chunk there there's no me there and you're creating so there's no being yourself right it's only doing something that you're doing what you're doing there you're there so it's a see because you know quite free and but when i'm in the bubble there's no chance there's just a daydream you just yeah see see what see nobody's still saying it's the chunk right i'm actually trying to communicate yeah and you keep jumping in either assuming you know what i'm going to say or you'll jump in to try and defend yourself because i think it's 90 of the time i have heard it before and you have said it before but i want to hear this new one that's true times yeah okay okay thank you everyone