Non Duality - Sailor Bob, Sailor Kat

Say a couple of words. You know what we are. Yeah. I'm more doubtful if I can anyway. Yeah, that's the best compliment I ever heard. Apart from the one that I heard from the tour guy in Egypt. We were going to see Pyramids. We are all ship's officers on board, just had a little break. And I found a beautiful little scarf, like a kind of a beige with gold. I put it over my head and he says, Katarina, you look so beautiful! Put it more over your face. Cover your nose. Yeah, yeah. The more you're covered, the more beautiful you are. So the more passionate I get about shouting out nonduality, the harder Bob will sleep.

Yeah. At least he doesn't really, he trusts me enough. Yes, we should all be getting a good grip of it by now anyway. Yeah, well, what can I tell you that you don't know just yet? Repointing. Repointing. Yes, it's funny actually because, well, you know, as much as I do, they say it is closer to your face. Closer than your face, or closer or more, closer... Closer than breathing, nearer than hands and feet. Oh yeah, okay, okay. And it's actually more... That's tennis. And it's more intimate than your own breath and your face. And this is really, this is really sweet way of putting it because what is actually closer than the breath or the face?

What is it? Like almost to take it as a riddle and get it, you know, and then contemplate and find the answer. What would that be? Core. Yeah, core is, what is it? There's nothing there in the core. Yeah, but it's not that, you know, that it's in a different location than the face or breath or anything. It's just kind of more intimate. It's like it is kind of dressed up in the, in the, it's, it's, well, it's funny. It's just, yeah, you can just close your eyes and actually feel it. Just feel that face has location in a way. And the knowing of the face doesn't.

And the very knowing, the very awareness is so close and is so intimate and it can't be known because it is the knowing agency. And it's so familiar and it's so always there. And the content, whether it's a breath or face or anything else, it doesn't really matter because the intimacy of the pure knowing. And if there is nothing to know, there is still the knowing of the being. So this is something that is so obvious and so intimately close that nearly everyone misses it. So everyone goes on a search and looks for something, and then now you are a seeker or I am a seeker, and I'm seeking something.

And then funny enough, I don't know how many I heard saying it, but boy, Everyone who actually ended the search found nothing. Like it's not that, okay, I'm embarking on the search and I'm seeking, seeking, seeking until I find, and then I stop seeking. It doesn't happen this way. When I find, and there is really nothing to find, is the realization that what I'm seeking hasn't been lost. It has been here all along, closer than the face, more intimate than the breath. So it's just really recognizing and awakening to the fact that what we are seeking has always been here, has never been lost. And it can't be found, it can't, because the very seeking is...

If this is what I am, how can I find myself? If I am the awareness of being, awareness of the intimacy of the breath and the face, how possibly can I find that one that is the pure knowing? What would I have to be to actually make a knowing, pure knowing, to be an object in awareness? So it can't be found. The seeking is chasing your own tail. Not only it is there all along, has never been lost, but also it can't be found because whatever is seeking is just a movement in the activity of knowing. So those who ended the search, they found nothing, they lost the seeker.

So end of the search is the end of the seeker. Suddenly, oh my God, how the whole idea of finding myself, my true self, my real self, or bigger self, how ridiculous it appears in a moment of realization that it has never been lost. And yeah, you all can connect to that very intimate feeling of knowing about something, so knowing more intimately than about the face or the shape. Because face or a shape is a concept really. We have to visualize the face to even be aware of it. Apart from that, it's just a bundle of sensations that are not really located. If we want to locate it the only way I can locate the face would be to say that it is here But what is here really What is the distance between the one who is aware and the face?

Is it like Tonya you were saying about the core, is it like half a meter? Is there really any distance between the face and the awareness of it? It's just one and the same thing. So being aware of that sense of presence or being aware of any content, the very awareness of it is there all the time, is so close to the heart, is so much closer to the heart than the functioning of the body, breathing in, sweating. That pure knowing is so much closer. And who doesn't experience that? Everyone does experience that. Well, the attention may go somewhere else. The attention may go, yeah, but what about the bills, paying the bills, or what about the relationships?

But that's just a distraction. It doesn't obscure the fact that there is the pure awareness of being there all the time. So what are we really seeking? Whatever is being sought is an idea. It must be because nothing has been lost. So now there is an idea that there is something to be found. And usually that idea is mystical union with the universe. Because you open Nisargadatta and he will say, Yes, I've swallowed the universe. Yes, I feel intimately one with everything. All the time? Well, no, not when he's sleeping, and not when he's eating or cuddling his grandchildren. So it is an experience. Mystical union with the universe is the experience that comes and goes.

So is it really what we are looking for? Because if we are looking for the experiences of pleasure, ah, there is multitude of options. We can waste, I don't know, 100 lives just chasing pleasure, Just chasing beautiful music, yummy tastes, get addicted to sugar or whatever. But really what is there underlying any chase for pleasure, including mystical union with the universe and experiencing the whatever? What are the others? Kundalini, yeah? And you want to add something? I know it all comes about because of... Oh no, you hold it. . . . . . . . . . . . . Sales, of course. So what were you saying?

Doesn't matter. Aww. Yes, so basically if anybody is looking up for something else than the pure, pure intimate awareness of being that is here, is always here, just like the face is here, the breathing is here, there's nothing else that really needs to be found. But usually there is an idea in the seeking that there is something else, something bigger, something better, something more profound, like more pleasurable or ecstatic or blissful, some greater understanding where I'll be reading your minds or whatever. And that's actually what stands in the way of realizing something that is there all the time, intimately close, dear. The moment it is actually really fully experienced is the sweetest thing.

It's not even a thing. It's the miracle of life. It's the miracle of being. In a place where there could have been nothing, there is this miracle of beautiful dream that is being cognized, that is being known. But then of course, you know, when it gets obscured by the idea that, yes, but I didn't get it yet, so there is an I and there is a world and I have to get somewhere and get that. Oh yuck, then it starts to be painful, that if there is a separate me, not just pure witnessing of the miracle of that intelligence or life expressing in a multitude of forms, but there is some located agency here, insecure and afraid of the outside world that can threaten it.

In future of course, because right now nothing is really going on, even if you are hanging on the cross or dying, but in the future it's going to get worse. So if there is an agency, the me, seeking security in the world or seeking pleasure or seeking liberation, then of course it is now we enter the nightmare. The dream became a nightmare. And the seeking can take forever because, I don't know, perhaps only exhaustion of the seeking mind is the end of it. Because that seeking mind can never find what it is seeking because its function is to seek. So, the seeking, whether it seeks pleasure or it seeks prestige or it seeks whatever it is, the moment it finds it, it focuses attention on what next, what next.

So that seeking mind that mind of the seeker trying to find enlightenment or liberation or being is hopeless It never ever going to happen The Seeker It's like the aspect of the mind that is, let's say, responsible for your family or children, the controlling aspect. Yeah, what can I do? I can only control. And so the seeker is seeking and then maybe there is something bigger or better or broader or wider there that is also aware about this seeking mind, about that aspect that is hungry for answers or hungry for experiences. So this tendency to seek and imagine that there is something bigger and better somewhere out there, not here but there, and not now but in future, that it needs to be found, that very play of the mind can be witnessed.

Doesn't matter who is witnessing, I mean, who cares? That's the first step. When this activity is being known, obviously this activity is not entangling completely. It's not like if I'm not fully identify as a seeker, but I'm aware of the seeking activity, there is already a distance, a space, and that seeking activity gets much, much, much less attention or energy because part of it is back there looking at it. So instead of having the 100% of attention involved in making it real, now it's only half of it. So it kind of, the seeker and the activity of seeking gets a little bit more transparent, less solid.

It is, you can, ah yeah, I see, it's just a joke, it's just, it's not real, it's not that solid. So this is where the relief already comes. And this is where I realized, oh my gosh, the mind is seeking, but I am not the mind. So the awareness of the seeking mind, of trying to find, watch, learn. I remember this was really funny. Even when I was seeing you in the beginning, I still had, back in Poland, a lot of people who were also spiritual seekers, including some of my family members, and I would hear something, oh my gosh, she will benefit from that.

Oh, I would read something, oh, this will be great one for this. Like really worrying about how am I going to teach it to the others. No, no, it's not for me, it's just for others. Others may need to hear it. There are no others. There are no others. Like really, unless this truth is realized in the immediacy of this here and this now, Playing the game that, oh, okay, I will relinquish my enlightenment and help all the other sentient beings to achieve liberation before, oh, what a beautiful romantic dream, but hey, about waking up is not necessary. You don't preach to, gosh, if you didn't taste it, how can you tell it to anyone else?

What are you going to be teaching? Teaching separation? So I used to do that, I used to really get excited about sharing it, because that was so juicy, I mean it was so beautiful. You don't want to contain it, you want to give it to everybody else, shout it from the rooftop. But it was always only for me to hear. Others have their own life, they are taken care, they are also lived by the same intelligence, they have their own journey. It's really, it's no need to worry about them because if they need it, if they're ready, they'll find you. They'll come or not, who cares.

Yes, so that's what it really is about, that the whole idea of trying to find something different and something else and later, not here and not now. Something maybe brighter or more prominent than the intimacy of pure knowing, closer than the face and hand and feet, and the breath. So what could that be? What else could that be? Even the idea of locating it as an object, that very core, you called it core, or self, or whatever, there's so many names for this. It can't be known. How could that possibly be known if that's what's knowing? So, to really to realize that the seeking is just activity happening in this moment, in this immediacy, an I, in this immediacy.

I can't get to know this immediacy because this is what I am. So I can't know anything more about myself than the fact that I am. I can say, okay, I'm here or I'm now, but that's already too much. That's already too many words. So I am what I am. I can't find out ever, never, ever. Nobody knows. None of the gurus, Buddhas, Jesuses, they don't have clue. They never had clue what they are. To figure out what they are, they will have to temporarily stop being themselves and they are figuring out something that they are not. So it's totally, totally impossible. Yes so if we don if we give up on the idea of finding I want to find myself I want to find out what I am or maybe I am love but I didn realize it yet I didn feel it yet Now what am I saying That I have the imagination of what should I feel or what should I find out And I comparing that imagination with this moment right now and judging it as not it yet That's a good point.

Absolutely, yeah. If you have any idea that what is, is not it, how do you know? Obviously it is coming from the mental noise comparison and analysing. So if we drop all that mental noise, since in Minses, stop talking and thinking and there's nothing you won't be able to know. Without the mental noise and the idea that as it is, is not it yet. What do we know? Everything that needs to be known in this moment is known in the immediacy. The being is not being questioned. Whatever is happening on that screen of being, on that screen of intelligent being or knowing, Bob calls it activity of knowing, the intelligence energy.

It embraces the static and dynamic aspect both together because it is one. There is no separation. Separation is the dream and it's an illusion. For me the reason the word core came up was that when people ask the serious questions like what is the most intimate thing, it's like there's a deep dive into where mind is In that context, the phrase is not functioning and it's just a deep dive into it and there's nothing to be said about anything. Well okay, you can't say more than that and I forget what else came after that. It's a good word. But that's what it was, that's what it's like here.

So whenever people ask the deep questions, it's like, bzum. Yeah. Okay, nothing's, there's no, that's the phrase that came to mind before. There was no mind in action, there's no thinking happening, there's no, yeah. Yeah, and that's why the word core came up for me. And that happens with serious questions, it just goes there. Yeah, it's a good word. And if you stay with it a bit longer, then nothing happens with face or anything out there. It doesn't get seen as anything in particular. It's just some visual stuff coming in or whatever. And now, how core can know it is the core? What's that? How the core can know itself.

No thinking happening, there's no knowing of anything. No, impossible. There's no stirring of the mind, that was the phrase that came up. Yeah, that's... There's no stirring of the mind at all. In ancient texts they say, eye can't see itself. The eye, the instrument, the camera can't see itself. So there's certainly no sense of self or any of these other concepts, there's just nothing in there, there's no stirring. Tongue can't taste itself either. All that. Added in concepts for later. So the eyes can't see themselves. All they can do is the seeing. There's tasting, touching, hearing. That's all there is. You can't see what's being aware.

You can only see the actual doing of it. Which is the seeing or hearing or tasting or touching. That's all. There's nothing else. The analogies of knife can't cut itself. It can cut anything else but not itself. The tooth can't bite itself. So in the same way the core can't get to know itself. It can't. It's like it would have to stop being a core to even evaluate its shapes. A dog doesn't know it is a dog. We know it. And now we have the idea, like even though it's absolutely logical, The impossibility of verifying what I am is absolutely impossible, logically impossible. And we still assume that, oh yeah, but I know what I am.

I'm Katarina. I'm a person. I'm a girl, a woman from Poland. Oh gosh, I know so much. Yeah, I know. And now the whole humanity goes up with the idea like this. Of course I know what I am. I know my beliefs. I'm ready to die for them. I'll defend them. If someone attacks my beliefs, I'll feel like they're attacking me and I'll strike back. Really understanding that whatever I know about myself is not, it can't possibly be what I am. And throwing it all to the garbage, throwing the idea of being a person, a woman or whatever, and just letting it go, of course it's a good functional belief to use in the daily communication.

But if you know it's a functional belief and not the absolute truth, that's no problem. Yeah, well. So what are you? What are you? What am I? I am not the personal self from the start. That's what the problem arises from. And I pointed out, you know, I can't tell you anything or teach you anything. When you believe you are the mind, you say, my mind, but you know, my car, my house. You know you can't be the mind. When you say your body, you say, my body. And the one we miss out on, as soon as you say, my self, what are you relating to the personal self immediately?

But there's no personal self, there's just self-aware, self-liberation, self-realisation. So we think this personal self is going

I Am Self, Self-Shining, Self-Realization, Self-Knowing. It's the one Self appearing, patterning and expressing as everything. Can you be anything other than that? I can try. Be an actor. Yeah, go back and pick up the me again. When you say, a lot of talk about the me coming back, what comes back? Me, myself, the personal self. There was a personal self. So how can it come about? The personal self is an act, isn't it? It's an act that you put on to meet your idea of who you are.

Well, it's just the same as my body, my mind, you know. But you investigate this, you know. When you say my body, you say my coat, my car, you realize you can't be the coat, the car or the house. And then you realize from that you can't be the body. Do the same thing with the mind, you can't be the mind. But when it comes to myself or me, this is a conceptual image we've got. And yet when you say us children we learn language and we start memorizing things and we start segregating, organizing, the whole computer starts working and we have labels for absolutely everything.

So it's only natural that you want to kind of have a label for yourself and for mommy, daddy, whatever. And now the identification comes about when this label is not a label anymore, it becomes a reality, it becomes who I am. And this is just a little trick. That's all Ramana Maharshi is pointing to all the time. And then he comes back to, all you can say, what is it, who am I, what am I, you can only come back to I, I. You're not putting any personal, so I am the self. Not a personal self. That is all there is. Mm-hmm. Go on. Did you want to say something?

I was at a retreat on the weekend and there were lots of people there that I didn't know. And I saw, I watched myself trying to assume a version of myself, I assume an identity that I've cloaked myself on to kind of appear more something. And I watched that, I watched it clearly and I thought, oh. But I saw, I almost like thought, hang on, there was something before that, there was something before I just assumed this version of a he that I need to be. And then I realized I'm not a he or a she, I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. I'm just. Beautiful.

And it really helped me to go to really catch that, oh, there's something under the cloak. It's not the cloak. It's assumed. It's assumed. And it separated me from me. Isn't it beautiful to see how it comes about? I saw it, yeah. Ah, isn't it exquisite? How brilliant! Yeah. That's all there is to it right now. You can do it really. I can point you to it. Yeah, you say it again, Bob, because you're whispering. Ah. You only get one shot. I'm just whispering. Yeah. I'm tired from my nap. Bob! I'm not sure what I'm doing. I'm doing my job. Oh, you're doing really well.

I forget what it was now anyway. Assumed identity has to go. Well, assumed identity was never there. Yeah. But we go back into habit for a while. But it's I-self, it's I know, I see, I feel, not the person. The person never was. So it's that pure seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, breathing, heart-breathing. That is what you are. So what you saw, Tass, like when you saw that you are actually assuming the identity, you are putting up the role, you can also see it, you know, like the speaker changes, like you probably have a different sort of a personality when you talk to your mum And now the challenge is, see it moment to moment.

Because this is so automatic, it doesn't mean that Bob doesn't have 42 years or whatever of abiding in a state of non-identification, but still certain positions of the mind or certain behaviours, they still come about. But there is no mistake that there are just roles that are being played. There is no idea that, ah, this is me and I need defending. No. It's just a coat. He doesn't go naked. He still wears his personality or he speaks to step-granddaughter or whoever. So when the dream is known as the dream, it is not a problem anymore. Interestingly I got back from that retreat and yesterday a friend of mine who was quite distressed called me and wanted to catch up to talk about whatever he is going through And I found myself naturally coming out of me the things that I hear here.

It wasn't even me thinking about them. They were just coming out. So many things like you've said to me were just coming out. And it was helping this as well as that. I Am. We come to the realization that you're being lived. You're actually being lived. Even the idea that there's a me here and I'm suffering and I need to seek something or I need to gain something or even I need to shed something, like drop something. All of that dialogue, all of that internal dialogue and that so-called me that seems to be there, has got absolutely nothing to do with a me, or nothing to do with a self-identity.

If we have absolutely no control over what goes on in here, no control at all what goes on in here, then what the hell is responsible for it? If there's no me that's doing that, and there's no me here, yet there's this same, there's thoughts and there seems to be a seeker here. The hell's doing that? The same thing that's growing a tree is doing it. The same thing that's I Am Tatha, I'm here to find something, or to discover something, or see through something. I Am the One, I Am the One. All of this seems to be. It just seems to be. It's not actual.

It just seems. It seems to be someone here or there seems to be one here that, you know, that the chattering's died down and I'm not affected by it as much and so on and so forth. All that dialogue, you're not doing it. None of it. How could you? Look, if this is about nonduality and you still think you're there, better get the fuck out of here. Because you're not giving the primary message, nonduality. Which means not to. Now, of course I was saying that in jest, you know that, yeah. Well. Totally was. But there's no use in getting out of this, we've had it.

Totally was. I was totally saying that in jest. But the reality is, even if you wanted to go, I bet you couldn't. I bet you couldn't. I bet you couldn't. And that's what I mean by, you're being lived. All being bought here. Do you understand? It's not you making a decision, I'm going to go to Bob's tonight. There's no you there making that decision, I'm going to go to Bob's tonight. Just thoughts come up and the body moves with it. But we think there's a me here that's constructing all the dialogue and all the thoughts and everything that goes on. We are totally, completely being lived.

And even when I hear myself say that, I say, no, that's not it either. Because there's nobody there that's being lived. It gets really, really difficult, really difficult to communicate this. That's why it's often said, you know, what I'm saying is a pointer only. Don't take it as an absolute fact. You know, it's... because it's not. It's like... totally not. Yeah? But... you know, it's... This... this... this game or this show that seems to be going on is that singularity. It is responsible for all of this Has to be Because there only one Not two There the illusion of two The illusion of two That why when we come here and we get asked to go looking for yourself looking for the me we can't find it.

Hello. And often I use the terminology, you know, this is a 180. We come here trying to find something when what we should be doing is looking for no thing. The exact opposite. The exact opposite. You know, 99 times out of 100, we need to do a complete turnaround. Then we'll be much closer, like much, much closer. So I love it. I was crying before when you were sharing. It was beautiful. Just magical, you know. And I love that I can do that. I love that I can do that and experience that. It's just so close and so accurate and yet right off as well.

Because like I said, we can only point. But I just love, I love that when you're where you are, you can really start to relax. You know that's wrong when I say that. Yeah, but. Yeah, definitely on that on the weekend, on that retreat, just that moment of recognition of all this anxiety to to present a certain way is an act and. I am the only one who is doing it. And that there is something other than that enabled me to just not do that. And then there was just an ease and I have felt it since. Everyone is doing that. And it can be hard for others to recognise what is going on too because you can be in a passionate debate and it is just spilling out.

And definitely for me, like chunks of it anyway, there is probably wee moments I am a member of the National Association of Non-Democratic Organisers of the United States of America. Iam a member of the National Council for the Rights of the People, I am a member of the National Council for the Rights of the People. That does happen in these circles. You'll hear people saying, oh that person hasn't got a clue, or they're just totally in their head, or they're just sprouting whatever. Whereas the absolute truth of the matter is there isn't anyone there to be in their head. So whatever is coming out of them is totally spontaneous and totally beautiful.

Doesn't matter unless we have a judgement on it. So that whatever is functioning through here functions through there and functions through somebody that we might say is totally asleep and doesn't have a fucking clue. We might say that. I'm not pointing to you. I'm pointing to the empty chairs. Tony was full of shit. No, I dug into him and found his open spaces. Why not? No. That was the other Tony. Oh, this is Cody. Terry. I had a good chat with him after the meeting. I don't normally speak to people like that. I don't. I don't. But that just spontaneously came at him. I tried to say it in the most gentle way I could, to get his attention.

Really it was about getting his attention and seeing if I could hold him. It is the same. You there, you over there, or there. So, really, from a so-called separate perspective, you could say you're being lived. Get out the fucking way. You could sort of say there's a bit of an Enneagram six aspect in Australia, I don't know if it's relevant elsewhere, Suspicion and loyalty So it like you if it not being tested against experience the whole time and you kind of know when no thought happening and then you know when you don know and then the rest of the time you just in your head and you know that it not very clear But if you not too secure about that you want to know if the person telling you is trustworthy So if there's a big trustworthy vibe going on, you know, it's like, oh, I've got to, you know, not trust or trust or not trust or not trust.

I've got to ask who to trust. Who should I trust? And so I think it could be just a bit of that particular line of conditioning could have quite an impact on people looking for people in their heads or not. I mean I needed to, I don't know, I just, I don't know, it was different for me, I just felt, yeah, there's the coming, they're saying the right sort of stuff, it matches, I like it, it goes up to the main principle, it's beyond their mind, are they saying it matches that? Yeah it does, it's all good, it feels good. So I just go to those people, it's self-inquiry rather than body, because that seems to work here.

They are saying the same stuff, so as far as I am concerned they are coming from the same space, it seems to trigger the same openings in me. I am really happy with all the people I go to, they are doing the same thing. Beyond that I don't care. But also even the idea of evaluating. I remember I have seen it in this group, there was a lot of people here who considered themselves enlightened, and Bob enlightened, and nobody else. Particularly women, they can never get it, ever. That's a Hare Krishna thing. Really? Yeah, women can't get it. Yeah, whatever. But anyway, individuals like that, they are in constant projection because, well, there is only one, and there is only one reality expressing.

So if I see something in any one of you, how do I recognize it? Because it is here, so I can see reflection. So the whole world is basically a reflection because it's a holographic, it's one intelligence, it's no different here and there. So if I accuse everyone of being unenlightened, obviously I'm projecting my own confusion. If I'm accusing or I'm seeing everyone who is already free, there is nobody there, there is nobody here, nobody there. Yeah, obviously that's the projection also. But the funny thing is like what you said right now, people are coming from the point of evaluating and judging. So now I'm listening to Toni and I have the idea in my head how the enlightened or unenlightened or whatever speaks and I'm comparing it in the head, does she qualify or not.

And now I'm coming up with the conclusion, oh she's coming from the head. So this is really a long, thick mental process is going on that will bring me to the conclusion that she's coming from the head. So obviously this is a projection. She's waiting for her turn. It's a projection because I have no way to know where you're coming from. I have no way to know. You can ask people. I think that's where the asking doesn't quite happen. The assumption happens before the asking. Something I find not a lot of collaboration goes on in my experience in Australia. Maybe it's just something that you ask them.

You're sort of implying that you've got control in the first place. But Bob wanted to say something. Let's... That's why you've got to recognise the art of what they call the art of listening. When we're listening, trying to take it in through the head and all the rest of it, There'll be conflict here all the time because you'll have your concept about whoever's speaking, they'll have their concept about you, and head to head you don't communicate. When it comes to the heart, the core of your being, which is not the head, and it resonates in that, then you jump with it and resonate with it as yours then.

That's what I call heart to heart, and you all know what that is because you've all had that experience before I'm a bit of a I know full well when communication is coming out of here. I'm trying to... communication is coming out of where? You haven't got a fucking leg to stand on really. But I know full well that when I'm... if I... if what comes up for me is to hone in on somebody and get into communication with them, I know without any doubt that I'm not talking to that person. I know. How is it expressed? Through a resolution? The It's the most absurd thing to say when you know there's no one there to be awake and there's no one there to get anything.

You know it. So you're constantly trying to, if you like, the communication is constantly trying to bypass the me. Bypass that self-identity as best you can. And at the end of the day, at the end of the day,

I Am the Self. We are completely the same. That one essence. We are completely the same. Absolutely completely the same. So this is, you know, coming here isn't about... I know I keep repeating myself but it's so simple. Coming here is not about trying to get something. It really is about trying to lose something. It really is. I Am. I inquire, I inquire, who am I, where am I, what am I?

And in the end, in the end, you discover there's no one there. And in the absolute seeing, absolute seeing that there's no one there, guess where you end up? The I Am the One This literally comes down to who is this? Real simple question. Where is this? What is this? Instead of, there's a me here and there's chaos going on in the thinking. So you get that space up so you're not wearing all the thinking anymore. I Am All of this is in the seeing of that, just the seeing of that. I was of the understanding that once I saw that, absolutely once I saw that, somehow I was going to wake up.

And I bloody didn't. I didn't. Because there was still a me here claiming ownership of, I see that, yeah I see that, I know that, yeah I get that. And that was that, talked about it before that, and I use the word core, it's a silly word to use but... Use it. It feels like a call, it feels like there's a me here. And in the end for myself, that's what I was left with. Just that and only that. And all the attention was just now focused on what is that. And all the other stuff that I used to live with, that chaos, dropped away.

Just like, it just dropped away. So then there was just interest in, okay, what's happening here? What's really, and things got much simpler. Much simpler. Less chaotic, less conceptual. I suppose you'd call it true insane, true inquiry, real inquiry. Alright, where is this? Where is this? Where does it land? Where is this? We're kind of told to do that when we first come around, but in my experience it was really difficult to do that when I had so much noise going on. What's going on? And so many different ideas and beliefs and concepts and stuff going on The more distance I got from that I Aam That Ramana Maharshi I Nisargad tatha I Am I Am I have a sense of presence, my sense of beingness here.

It's the last thing that it hung onto. And because of that, it felt like it had a call. Because it was so identified with that awareness or that sense of presence. So identified with it. And I had no idea that that was going on. I was too busy trying to let go of all the conceptual stuff, I was in the middle of a meeting with a friend of mine, and he was talking about something as organic as that, if you like, or something as real as that. And then it was just, okay. And things got quiet, things got real quiet. I said, alright, where is this?

What's going on here? Where is it, please? And I literally just sat really quietly with that and only that. And to be really aware of that and only that, I had to be really present. I had to be really present, really present. And then the presence. And in doing that, it grew, it opened up and I just, it just drops off, it just dropped off, completely dropped off. The identity, that personal... So when you were really present, was all the chatter that... No, gone. Gone. Because it was like, what's the analogy? Picture an acre of land, flat land, and there's a stone, a white stone placed every six inches apart on the whole acre.

I was turning over rocks, left, right and centre. I finally got to the last few stones and by the time I got there, which was what I'm talking about here, By the time I got there, that or noise if you want to call it that, mind chatter if you want to call it that, conceptual ideas and beliefs and so on if you want to call it that, I completely lost interest in it. I just completely lost interest in it. And I didn't do any of that. So you have to understand that. I didn't lose interest in it. There was just a loss of interest in it.

A loss of... So it just wasn't coming up anymore. I Am That, Raman, I Nishgha, I Am. I had to exhaust my understanding, I had to exhaust the conceptual, I had to exhaust... Duality had to be exhausted. Duality had to be exhausted. Just did. And you come to see for yourself that you're never going to find the answer in there. It's just not there. You're never, ever, ever going to find the answer in there. So it's... and you see that and you come to that. Then there's a resignation of that or like almost a surrender to that. Okay, and that can be a bit scary, can be a bit daunting.

Because to me it goes, now what? What will I do now? Where do I go now? Like really? It can be. It was for me. It's like shit. Now what? And interestingly enough I just found myself sitting. Because there wasn't anything to do anymore. There really wasn't anything to do anymore. And I was just left with this little call, this little call, what's that, what's going on there? So all the other raka just dropped off, which made it much easier. But the only way I could be really aware or come to that place of being aware of that call I Am That, Ramana Maharshi, I Nisargad tathagat, presence-awareness, Mahavakya.

The One You won very often hear me talking about what it you know trying to describe the oneness trying to describe the emptiness I'm more, I seem to be more bent on, what's that terminology, jumping into the, what do they call those pits they have on the front line? D- Trenches. Trenches, thank you. I am a very serious person, very intense. I don't seem to have that intensity. www.nisargad.com And that first bit, like, we were at the beginning of that, was about the judgement. Can you remember? With people coming from the judgement, was kind of what was going on here. And there are times when I think people don't read you, but they're not, they could be from a very open place.

Like there's been times where like, Bob was leading, like attempting to lead me through a step-by-step process which just didn't apply to me, because I'd already gone to that core Inauguration of the I'm not sure if you can see it, but I'm not sure if you can see it. I'm not assuming Bob's coming from anywhere in particular. I'm just assuming he's seeing me coming from a different place maybe than I am. I don't know. No, he's just offering. It's the same way. All I'm saying is he can't also... And so who's me to assume... You're saying sometimes you can feel a resonance that feels like a head Resonance and so that way you see that or whatever and but there's so many different things going on that it could just be some people read body language in one way and not another from their conditioning and you don't know you know there's no knowing there's a whole lot of things twixt heaven and earth like they say.

It doesn't matter, you may have your landlord telling you the same story for like 50 times and you are sick and tired of it, but you're still polite and giving her space and she's speaking and you're listening. And someday you may just think about something else and not listen. But then also I noticed the propensity here is not to make up something to please somebody, it just doesn't make sense because the conditioning is to come to some mutual collaboration of what's really going on, you know, wherever. How to find the right person for you? I Am. And some people have real, you know, you quiz them and go, yeah, I've got real, you know, noticings, tendencies to notice when they are coming from here, like you gave a good example before.

And generally people have got all sorts of rationale stories of real energy, resonances, all sorts of things happening, but nobody ever bloody well asks them. They just make assumptions and go away on their own way. And, you know, of course none of that really matters either. It's just an aspect of human... I Am Self I'm triggered a hell of a lot by the environment. Yeah, but this is all to be noticed. It's like you see the nature of dog is to bark, nature of cat is to meow, and nature of people is to try to connect or judge or whatever. And whatever life presents at the moment, that's what it presents.

Whether there is understanding, like nature of Bob is to point, whether it is taken or is heard or is not, well, he's barking. And whether Bob understands it's being heard or not doesn't matter either. It doesn't. And so no one can make assumptions about where Bob's coming from in that moment. That's just another thing. That's where sometimes I just think there's a filter, there's another aspect of the filter of, oh there's bath water everywhere here, can't listen to anything. It's not safe. And I'm just lucky that there is a kind of, I have a certain propensity to just, I don't know. Dzogchen Tony does it too.

Check against experience, check against experience, check against experience. And half the time I'm going to totally get it wrong, but it's the preference here to check against experience and not care who said it. And sometimes that won't be the best way to receive or learn something, but I think I like it and it's worked quite well. I'm happy enough with it, I'm just leaving it as it is. Well, obviously I can't do anything about it, that's just how it's happening. It's a great freedom in not... because it reminds me about Dzogchen Tony when he says, He says, no, no, I'm not listening to Advaita. I disagree with Advaita.

I'm blocking my ears. When I hear you guys speaking, I'm just putting all the effort not to hear it because I don't want to be messed up. That's not a freedom. Kind of, but then even then he's got a weenie freedom too. And that is that I totally agree with him about there not being the step of awareness as it's spoken. Like if it's a place where no thing is at the full stop, I get it, no thing. So awareness for me doesn't register and maybe because I haven't abided and you know. But see it doesn't matter. Yeah, I know that doesn't matter. Aside from it not matter.

When you have to defend yourself all the time against something that you may hear, that's not a freedom. Like, oh yeah, no, I'm not going to be listening to what people are saying because... True, that aspect is true. Yeah, because when you're free, you just let the moment unfold as it is without any trying to alter, modify, correct, fix it, do anything about it. Just relax into it. Even though they may say something that you disagree or may say something that will confuse you, that's life confusing itself, that's okay too. I suppose my point is that the bathwater filter then assumes he's just doing that all the time and that's all there is.

And yet you can talk to him after, you can talk to him about something and you see the freedom, but it might be in that particular situation only a very small aspect. He is open, thoroughly in, in that moment. See, my experience with all this stuff, and of course it doesn't apply to everything in life, but it does definitely apply with nonduality. The less you think, the better. The less you analyze, compare, the less you bring up any ideas that this may do harm or not harm, or this may help, or this may point out. The less ideas, the better. Because, well, of course, it doesn't apply to shopping.

You gotta think what you wanna get. With nonduality, the less thinking the better. Ultimately, if there is no thinking, then that's a freedom. So any analyzing, noticing is happening, but the naming of the noticing is already, well, it's also happening, but it's already too much. It's already putting the veil over the natural functioning. Even the process of labeling and of course it's naturally happening. Nobody does it. Nobody does absolutely anything at all. But this type of an addiction, this type of habit is actually making it, it's complicating it. Because the simplicity, see you're not analyzing breathing of your lungs or circulating blood in the body or digestion.

You don't really have to think about much of it. But there are people who do. There are people who have different obsessions like washing their hands every five minutes. And then obviously they're so busy in the head with covering up the natural functioning with understanding, naming, labelling and analysing and comparing and evaluating it, that it gets kind of buried. Like the very basic functioning doesn't require any word or any sentence or any thought. When we had a discussion about this, you found a way of describing it. Because often when I hear that, I'm talking about another area in the middle. And I think you found that and you found another way of describing it.

I can't remember. Because often when I hear pointers that reveal, it actually drops stuff for me rather than ads. And I suppose it's when you come across something that says, Oh, what was that phrase from your childhood? Da-da. So it seems like a psychological investigation, The day after the meeting, I came to know that there was a lot of talk, but I didn't think it was a whole investigation. But really, it's like, oh my god, yeah. And then it seems to go for me. It may happen. Which is an opening. And that happens a lot. That just seems to happen a lot outside of satsangs.

In satsangs it's the full stops that come up a lot. Outside it's the blocks that get dropped off a lot which get in the way constantly, off the gaps. www.nisargad.com.au

Suddenly it's not flooding my head so much, these kind of things, you know. It's like there's a witnessing of something about to go, it's come to the light and it goes. And, yeah... But does it ever happen without the story, like without any labeling? Like in a way that you could say, oh, something just dropped off, but I don't know. No, the I don't know question never comes up. Because it's just happening, there's no question of it.

I don't have that loyalty suspicion thing. It just turns up and then it goes. And there's nothing more to it. But it actually takes very little of my time because nothing more happens to it. There's no suspicion there. It's just whatever comes up, comes up. There's no real knowing what, if anything, caused anything, but it just quite often is in the bundle. This apparent exploration of psychology, but it just turns up in a bundle. It's kind of exposed and sometimes clear day drops off a fair bit, otherwise it's just lessening of power in it. And this just seems to be in the mix very strongly here.

And it just comes, done its dash, gone. And it might pop up a couple more times over the next day. Oh, yes, right. Yeah. And it's just like a release because it's, I don't know, I can't remember too well. And of course, this may not be your case, but there is a danger. See, the psychoanalysis or psychology is all about digging in the patterns and finding them, you know, finding the pattern and releasing the pattern. And it might be not your case at all, but there are people who spent the fortune and 20 years of psychoanalysing and digging and digging and digging and letting go and letting go.

And they are absolutely certain that without that sort of a process, they will be bound forever. And the truth is, that's absolutely ridiculous assumption, because by digging and looking at all these patterns, you may only develop the conviction that, okay, I have to see it for the last time before it goes. And in that way, you're never going to get free. Yes, those extra thoughts don't come up. They're just whatever that process happens then. I'm just like, it might come up some very much owned me thought about, you know, I've got to cull my emails or life will be bad in the future. Emails get culled and they're, oh, this is kind of interesting, it's popped up.

It's a real feeling that it's just whatever was there was in front of me and that's it. You know, there's no searching for an interesting thing that might do that. There's no searching for an interesting thing that's just, oh, that's interesting, landed on this one. And not even really thought after that. I am a member of the group of people who are in charge of the And then I actually don't have any good memory of what happens after that, but the principle is that generally it means I have noticed to be less crap, that crap coming up here all the time, which I can see.

But when you see the process of checking? What checking process? Yeah, you say, oh, the checking in is happening and the revealing is happening. Yeah, so I don't, it just pops up. The checking? Words pop up in front of me off the computer and it's like, oh, what did your parents say? I am a person who is aware of the things that are happening in my life. I am aware of the things that are happening in my life. www.nisargad.com Cool, oh gosh, I'm grateful I don't have to go through that. What's that? No, it's great. I know, it's pleasurable. Oh, I'd love to have a spontaneous awakening, but it's great, it's like...

I'm sure it's a lot of... It's not about pleasure, it's not about distraction, it's the opposite, it's clarity. I know, that's your definition of clarity. My definition of clarity is completely non-conceptual. Yeah, but it's not conceptual, I'm not being conceptual, all I'm trying to do is explain a process whereby something just goes and it just turns up and there's no looking for it. I don't have concepts around it. It's just... yeah, just... nothing can be said about it. But even the awareness of the pattern going and changing and moving, there is still a content there. There's still a content playing out. And that's okay. Because I have a content playing out and it's in that way.

It's not thought about, oh yeah, I do this pattern and it's really important. I do it and oh, I've got to let everyone know this is the way to do it. It's none of those words turning out. No, no, no, but the content of releasing of different sort of, you know, seeing, noticing, checking, there is activity. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. There's no me there doing it. No, I never said it was you doing it. And no sense of it either. No, no, no, I didn't. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. But it's, um, yeah. I just say I'm so grateful I don't have to go through that because it just seems so, so exhausting.

It's not, it's the opposite, it's releasing. For you, but for me it is. Yeah, because I don't do more with it. With different patterns. I don't do more with it. There's no more happening with it. There's no, oh, is that the right one? Is that the wrong one? I can imagine what the other stuff you might do with what might be exhausting because it goes to nothing Compare all that to absolutely nothing. Let me finish. Compare that to abs... I'm not talking about that that's what turns up after, I'm talking about that not turning up at all. Just still. Just completely quiet. Here's the thing, it's only when this sort of process happens that that reduces, the chatter reduces.

I understand. I understand. And what Kat's saying, and I'm in the same boat as Kat, is... Yeah, that flashes in all the time, what you're saying. That flashes in all the time. Full stops, yeah. I know. They flash in all the time as well, at different times from this. And then there's a lot of time where there's just me in the head. Yeah. Yeah. And... It just appears to be going that way from both ends. I Am the One, I Am the One. Absolutely nothing goes on. I get that. I've enough burst to know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. So, I don't know where to go with you.

There's nowhere to go. It's all great. It's working well. I see more pointers at the end. Yeah, I just hear, I'm still hearing that even though there's the communication that comes out of your mouth, There's no one here, no one judging, you know, that's kind of okay. But then sometimes I hear you say, you know, and then sometimes I am here, you know. Oh, most of the time. Right, okay, and I am slammed into here. I don't, you know, I... Seems like there is a process. Yeah. Of getting somewhere. What is nisargadatta saying? No, those thoughts don't come up about am I getting somewhere. What is Nisargadatta saying?

He says give up the process of the thinking principle. Give up the process. You're like completely give up the process. The thoughts about processes aren't really coming up a set later. I understand, but there's still processing going on. I don't understand because I think you're speaking at that big thought level and it's not like that. I'm talking about from what you're communicating. You need to describe what you mean by this process that you guys are thinking of. Yeah, letting go. What I mean by process is just something popping, bang, bang. It's not a process. It's just bang, bang, bang, bang. But a week ago, before a few things got released, that was worse.

So now you're getting better because more of it was released. I don't care about that. That's just a random statement. It doesn't mean it's not a value. I don't care if it gets... It's not real if it gets better or worse. I'm not sure what I'm saying. I am looking forward to the next event. I Am The One I am not a person who is noisy, it's not quiet, it's not still, it's not calm. And I think that the reason that it seems to be, look, I might be right off base, but just from what I hear you say, I think that the reason that it, there's this perpetuation Clearness, then Meanness, then Clearness, then Meanness, then Awareness, then Inness, then Analyzing, and so on and so forth.

You're still putting way too much attention on the description. Not the actual thing that is happening, but the description itself. I think just from hearing you share and I been around you for a little while now that what I hear Like there an interest in the description as opposed to the actual thing Okay, well ask me, I'll give you four answers to that. If I remember them all now because they came up as you went. Yeah, so one, there is a habitual defensive mechanism to my parents to describe why I shouldn't be belted and it always happened anyway. So these are the little ones, like I noticed when I was in a transmission last night, there was just a phrase after three or four times, a certain description of what just happened would come up.

And then the next one would pop in. And it felt like there was nothing under that, but it was just constant. Because there was enough triggering in the system that these were happening over and over and over. And then afterwards there was a lot of peace when I was out of that sort of intense situation, if you know what I mean, and just chatting in the car. If it remembered, if remembering came up, then there would just be nothing going on with a bit of conversation being heard happening, you know. And, you know, the few times that did get remembered it was very accessible, but no thing, no chatting, nothing there.

And then, so another thing is at times it's actually a very peaceful thing because I'm describing a moment where nothing was going down, best possible way poetry, and it takes me back to that moment where no thing, it's a full stopping. So this description actually then becomes a full stopping process which is very opening and relaxing and beautiful. The the Just a bio thingy, it's really just a thing happening, it's seen that way. It's really just not seen by anyone or to anyone, it's just turning up as part of life. So whether it's a releasing thing or whether it's just a typical thing coming in which does have an energy with it, a charge, because obviously there's a wee moment where it's a trigger, a triggered thing, so there's ownership saving a self of some sort.

So all those phrases we've seen almost from the beginning, which is fairly rare here, to see just all the stuff coming out right from the beginning, all of it, they've been caught right, but obviously right, right at the beginning it was a self-protection thing not seeing, you know, a trigger, a self-moment. And yeah, it's really just seen as the stuff of life happening. See, it's not a separate description, it's not seen as a separate thing. I hear it as just the stuff of thought going on. I don't see the stuff of life at all, like at all. Yes, it is, it really is just that stuff of life is what comes up, that's that, that's all you get.

Or you get the peaceful side of it. That stuff that you're talking about, that stuff of life, is just thoughts. Yeah, exactly, that's what I'm saying. And they seem to come up as descriptions in the system, so a bunch of other thoughts aren't coming up. And the bigger ones used to come up, but as these things, aha moments got noticed, now it's down to the really persistent, and they're generally descriptions. And there's a lot of description. And also, these descriptions are very often about what happened when you were listening to Nemala or whoever it is, or what happened yesterday, or what happened... It is not really this immediacy.

Very often you do come up with the insight. I usually mention other people just as a social thing, it's not really to do with the anxieties here. You can take that one really lightly, that one's not... There's something going on here. It's more to do with being heard or not being heard by you guys, so I mention somebody. But I don't care about that one really. Yeah, look, there's... Ramanaji dasi sedara ka. I was judging I wasn't still behind that just then. Well you weren't. Because you were in silence. No, I was trying to talk and you were talking over me. That's what I mean by just be still.

But you said something. And you're doing it again. You said something that I'd already told you a million times isn't the case and you assumed it anyway. But that's fine, keep going, I want to hear more. It's stillness and silence. Stillness is on the level of movement and silence on the level of sounds. So what I get from you is that there is a core there. I am not a person who is not aware of the truth. I am not a person who is not aware of the truth. That's what I love about you, is you just say it as it is. And I love that You so incredibly honest I admire it I really do But I hear you stuck I absolutely do hear you stuck And I think it's to do with what I was talking about earlier that there's something in there that you're not separating from.

And that's something that you're communicating from is this entity that, you know, got treated like it did by its parents or whatever. And then these thoughts will come up and they'll come up and it's just, but it's just a natural thing that comes up. And then, you know, you also kind of put it out there a little bit. You know, don't challenge me too much because I don't like it. I get a bit threatened by that. I'm saying this from love, okay? Keep going, say what you like. Great. It's just purely my observation. Yeah. Right off, that's okay. Take what you want. But just in your dialogue and what you communicate and what you're actually saying, From where I sit and from what I hear and from what I see, and you admit it.

There is still this sense of, and I think you're still caught up in letting go of the content. That just happens and that happens and yeah yeah. Still kind of in a state of being or trying to be indifferent to whatever it is that might come up or not come up and then there's clarity there's not clarity or there's a little bit of chatter or I can see there's a little bit of pattern there from you know when I was a kid and you know and that pops up. I absolutely believe that your me is sitting there witnessing all that and you don't know it yet.

You actually don't know it yet. It's really get the opposite of all of that. So you hear what I am saying and you're saying no it's the other. I'm just, all I can do is look and honestly, you know, it just triggers in and it's just, what a thing. There's nothing there, I look constantly, especially in these situations, there's a constant checking. And it just goes to no thinking about it, there's no thing there. There's no potential for an entity because you're not thinking. That's the experience here. But there is a preoccupation with yourself and your safety. Yeah, but it's just seen also as triggered thoughts, body reactions.

The raft of stuff comes in and does all that stuff and sometimes it's not seen because I'm heavily in the story in the bubble. You know, sometimes, for sure. But when not in the bubble, the little aspects can be felt and they're coming in and you have to add in, there's not a point of viewing from, but I can see that popping in a bit after. It just really is sensation floating. It's just right now, you know, there's wee moments where there's a bit of oral memory, a bit of voice heard, but not right through. Voices that come out in and out. There's just no little thing in the middle.

It's just not there. And I'm pretty sure it's not hidden. It feels very free, in that respect. And other times I just write it in there. You're the only one who can actually verify it. And if you feel totally fulfilled, happy and free, and if you don't have any issues, problems or fears or... And as you say, it's getting less and less mattering that the reactions did happen and the... you know, the bits that normally used to be bad, they feel less bad and less important, but they still come up. Yeah, that's definitely more and more noticeable. Yeah, cool. If absolutely nothing I said resonates, then take that.

I mean I get I love the way you explained it you know you started a couple weeks back really saying what really went on for you and I can see the aspects how that matches here and I can sort of see some conclusions that just haven't gone to and maybe I'm not a very physical person so that it's all been very you know so it's really not been a entity of this when person first said it wasn't to do with the mind or when they first said what's there when you're not thinking about it before the I'm not going to do that. Well, I don't know.

It just doesn't seem to be wanting to do that. www.nishargad.com.au Thank you everyone.