Sailor Bob and Sailor Kat - non duality 30 Aug 2018

We're in, what was the subject? Kong. Is there a nude baby? Sorry? Is there a nude baby? There you go Bob, there's a nudie Japanese place. There's a nudie Japanese spa. Just a nudie. Yeah, we're ready. Well just to fill you in, I'm having a rest for a few weeks after the operation and all the things and Kat's going to take it over. There's a few of you can talk on it, Terry's got a good grasp of things. So away you go. Yeah, he may join in, like questions that come from the group he may, just when he feels like speaking I always hope that he will.

And yeah, on top of that, that I can't fill you in for the last couple of days because last couple of meetings he said the same thing. He had a go with me when I was trying to include him, so I'm not allowed to even invite him to speak because I'm gonna be trouble. But he can be still quite, you know, fiery. But what I've noticed for last few days, he's picking up the phones, he's speaking on Skype, he's still having one-on-one. So if someone really have the need, and this is a game changer, to really speak to him is still doable. And hopefully in couple of weeks he'll be, yeah.

So he didn't refuse any of the seekers that we're calling, so you can always call. Okay, so well, what can I do? He told me that if I will refuse to speak, he will close the damn thing up. And we don't want it to happen because in a couple of weeks he may want to speak again. I am not suffering, I do like to speak about it. It's not a crime, it's not a punishment, it's okay. Thank you, I do actually enjoy it. We were talking with Terry on the car. It's just so much easier and so much better and so much more effective when it is personalized.

When you actually speak one-on-one with person and that's what Bob prefers and he left the cream on a tort he's still eating, you know, because once you actually ask people question they tell you where they are, they use particular language. Now Bob can answer in their own language, in their own vocabulary. That's just a game changer. That's what actually, that's what ended my search. Like I was sitting here with him and crying my eyes out of a misery. He would just ask gentle guiding questions and I would find out the answers within. And that's the way because, well, that's the way because nobody can give you the answer.

Because the search ends when the seeker ends. So it's not about having the questions answered, it is about having no questions. When the questions don't come up anymore, there is no problem. Like, what is ever wrong unless we think about it? What could possibly, anyone could conceive of a problem without the thought? So the question, I'm not there yet, or I kind of understand it intellectually but I can't feel it, or any other thoughts, they have to be thought first and then believed. Without the thought and the belief going into, oh yeah, but I still feel identified. That's a belief again. So if that one is questioned, and the investigation resolves it, because, well, the truth is, if we really look within, there isn't anyone inside, there isn't.

There is only going to be a thought appearing on the screen of awareness. There is no separate self, there is no entity, ego or me. There never was, nobody had ever found it. Yeah, but I believe I'm the body. Well, okay, that's a thought. What if you stop thinking? Do you still believe you're the body? Yeah, yeah, okay, but I'm the thinking. Well, how come you're aware of your thinking? You can't be the thinking if you are aware, conscious of your thinking. You have to be, you are conscious of it, so it is an object in consciousness. But then last week the wise young man says, but you know, how about the feelings?

They feel so close. I think somebody is there. Just hold it. Alright, thank you. It feels so close to the heart, like if I'm anxious or if I'm angry or if I'm in love, it feels so personal. Okay, I've seen the light coming. Yeah, the light is coming. So, and for me also, that was the last sort of a flank of identification going. I was already going because when I met Bob I already knew I wasn't the body or the mind. I knew it. It was just, yeah, of course, like why would I even believe that crap? But there was a feelings that identification with that surge of emotion, particularly unworthiness, the sense of contraction, I'm not there, I'm not, you know, the suffering.

That's something so close and so intimate and so contracted and kind of tight and uncomfortable that I could not possibly say, yeah, of course, there is nobody there, I'm space, I'm life, I'm nothing, because it just felt so real, it felt so solid, that emotional search. But I was also aware of it. There was also awareness of it. Even that sensation and for me it was a sensation of devastation coming up from a regret that someone that I invested a lot of my time and love and life could not possibly really see me for what I am But so couldn't I. He had a conceptual image of me which was ugly.

I was unworthy of love, I was just ignored. Yeah, it was ugly. But I had a conceptual image of me also, which wasn't that pretty either. I was unworthy, I was unlovable. So the conceptual image, whether pretty or ugly, who cares, is still a conceptual image. And of course if it's a powerful, strong, charged, loaded, emotional image, it will shorten your breath, it will just make the breath shallow, it will bring you depressed, it will steer the hormones and emotions in the body, it will make the, you know, gosh, It will change the biochemistry of the whole machine. And it will feel very physical and very solid.

But again, even that search of emotion, even that search of sensations in the body was known. I was aware of it, so how could I be it? Only through a belief. The only way to identify with the content of the screen of awareness is to believe it. And well, can we blame ourselves for believing it? How many people did you meet who don't believe it, who don't take it for granted? Of course there is a me, my life, my personal life, of course. Like apart from Bob, a handful throughout my life, and I was a seeker, I was serious seeker, I was going to the big gurus because I wanted to hang around with people who don't believe their separate self.

But most of the guys, they just take it for granted, my parents, my teachers, everyone I was the one I was ever admiring, I wanted to be like them, because of course I was much worse. They took it for granted, yeah, I'm self, I have to get better, work on myself, grow, resolve the inner child issues, go for a psychotherapy, deserve love, if I'm abused emotionally, then I just have to keep giving more, I have to be loving more, I have to be... Gosh, I can't get angry? Yuck, what a life! Like, gosh, it's so against nature even to try to be a positive figure or pretend to be one.

It's like, gosh, like really the natural state, this is what the nonduality, well, it's a bad word, It's a dualistic word. But what it all is about is about the natural state, something that is there all along, that is birthright of every being, is the awareness of being. Everything has a being, and humans at least, because I can only speak for myself, I don't know what awareness the cat has. But yeah, there is an awareness of being and this is a natural state. The concept of the natural state, the concept of the ideas, the ideas of what am I, who am I, how am I, the judgments, the comparisons, and all I could think of myself is always in the relation to the background.

I can't say that I'm ugly if I don't compare myself with someone who I judge as pretty. It's always relative, it's always relating. So it's conceptual. It has relative reality, all that stuff, especially when it's believed, because when it's believed, the belief, the very act of belief is what brings it into reality. Like believing in a tooth fairy, or believing in angels. I know people who actually spend their whole adult life being totally happy having contacts with angels because they believe it. Why not? I mean, this is a game of belief. We also believe that we're sitting here in a room. Because every single thing that we come across is basically the projection of this transmitter-receiver that is interpreting everything.

We learn how to interpret reality. And in every tradition they tell us that what we see, the material objective sort of a world, is Maya, is illusion. Even the religions, they say, what was the Muslims they were saying? There is only God and nothing else? Or was it? Something like that. Like God is real, nothing else is real. Unless the wall and the carpet and everything is God, it's not real. So okay, it's not real. It's just not. Maya is an illusion, it's a manifestation. So let's start from what is real. And what is real, what nobody can ever deny or question, is the awareness of existence.

Like, yeah, we can say, I don't exist, but that's just a concept, because to even say it, I do have to exist first. So there is an existence. And that is not an illusion. And that is something that even everything else is discarded and is questioned, that sense of existence never goes away. It stays there and it is funny because we hear, and it's really hard to speak nonduality using dualistic language, that everything in the language has its opposite. So we call it awareness, but it's not an object. It's not a thing that you can call awareness and you can be aware from outside of awareness.

No. Or we call it self. And then the self is kind of like a singular word, but it's not really, it's nothing. Yeah there a lot of labels for it Cognizing emptiness or awareness of presence or satchitananda a lot of words but none of those words Bob words the activity of knowing which is intelligence energy beautiful words Yes, it is the activity, which is a vibration of knowing, the energy movement of the awareness. But it's still not it, because those are words. And words naturally represent objects. We use in our language words to point out at something that is standing out of the background, of the space.

Even a space we use as an object. So this thing can't be described, it can't be experienced because it is an experiencing. So, but it can't be denied. So everything else can be denied. Like, you know, I can deny that I'm human. It's very easy when someone hypnotizes me and tells me that I'm an animal and I'll start... You know, there was even the Zen stories about the guy who was meditating and he was instructed to watch the bull to become like nature. And then he couldn't get out of the window in the room because the horns were stucking on the way. So it is, you know, the people, gosh, I have a lovely, lovely schizophrenic cousin who can believe anything you want.

I mean, she's not Napoleon or Jesus, but you know, there are people who believe whatever they want to believe. But this can be questioned. I can easily question I'm the body, because I'm aware of it. I can question I'm the mind, I can question I'm human. Anything that has an objective sort of a flavor can be discarded, can be argued, can be dropped away. But not the sense of existence. I can't, well, whatever, in this moment I can't deny my existence. So this is something that is undeniable. This is something that is beyond, it can't be questioned. This is the only reality of which we are certain.

This is a place where everything starts. I am, therefore I think. I am, therefore is the world. I am, therefore is the body. And I Am doesn't mean that there is an I that exists. It means the Being, it means the pure existence. So this is the place where it all starts and where it all ends. The problem with it is that because we were conditioned to, first of all, avoid the pain and go out from the immediacy of the sensations and feeling and everything, To the head, to explanation of it because it hurts less. And secondly, because we learn the language, or maybe reverse, maybe the language would be, who cares.

Anyway, we were conditioned to interpret world in the terms of language, objectify the world. So now, to put the attention on emptiness, sense of existence, It feels so un-compelling, un-interesting, it feels boring, like come on! The brain, the mind will tell me wonderful stories. There is so much entertainment going on here, and there are so many important things going on there. Like come on, what about my future? What about my past? What about what they feel or think about me? All that yummy stuff, juicy stuff, the stuff that is dramatic, that is potent, that is... Yeah, it is, gosh, it is entertaining. And then put it next to the sense of existence.

Nothing in there, blunt. There is nothing yummy about it. Like try and sit and meditate and have no thoughts. Oh, what's so beautiful about that? Peace, silence, boredom. Because we used to sit in the head so long, all our life, Now, to drop off from the head to the gut or to the heart, you just can't do it. It just feels difficult. It is doable. Usually it seems like being exposed to that frequency, being attracted to that frequency, of resting the attention back, withdrawing the attention from the phenomenal world, back into the sense of existence, into the being. That very stepping back from the story, from the movie, from the dream, it is almost like reacquired taste that we've forgotten as babies.

The taste of just being, deliciously peaceful, vast sense of just presence. And from that sense of presence, world doesn't disappear, but reality and the solidity of the world loses its impact. So the pain is still pain, but there is no resistance to pain, so there is no suffering. And in the absence of suffering and in the absence of self-obsession, of thinking, What am I gonna do tomorrow? Just this lot of thinking, a lot about me. In the absence of that part, suddenly, oh my gosh, I can hear the birds. And the water sparkling like we've been in this hot springs today. Oh, so much beauty, so much beauty of the rain dropping in the water and having all the circles around.

And the birds and the sound of the water and the interaction with people. I Am That Ramana Maharshi I Nchagiri Dzogchen Veda Vedanta presence Mahavakya And even though you know it a dream you know it is projected world from which you not separate you one of it You are you kind of ask life ask space give yourself eyes to see the reflection of your own creativity It's beautiful, it just gets so much more easy, natural and flowing. But you can't get there because you already are there. So you can't really become that, you can't really learn that. It's about unlearning, undoing. Because attention habitually goes into the story, into the self-obsession, into the conceptual world.

Like how much time we actually spend sitting around and savoring the world in this moment as it is. Hearing every sound, seeing everything, seeing new in everything and tasting and touching and smelling and being aware of every tension in the body and being aware of breathing, just really having that attention unfixated in the head. Usually very quickly the thought comes, oh yeah, but what about my mother? Oh, what about this? It's just completely missing out on life because there's so much more going on in there. It's so much more kind of juicy. It's like the intensity of the dream is so compelling that you can't...

Like, Teddy, you've explained it so beautifully. I loved it. On last meeting he was saying, you know, that there was a thought in which he was beating himself up, really torturing himself. And then for a moment the thought lifted and he woke up from it like, that's just a thought. And the next thought came, oh shit, wait, wait, this was important, this was important. What was it? It feels so important, every anxious thought, every fearful thought. Come on, come on, this is about the security, it's the safety of the body. I have to grasp this thought and keep beating myself up. This is important. It's just so much of our life.

And this was most of my life, really obsessing about myself and about the ways that I have to make myself secure. And for me, it was the way to get secure was to get sympathy. I had to smile all the time because then people won't reject me. A pardzive. Gosh, and people have different strategies. There are people who confront others before they get confronted. And all the strategies, they're just magnificent because now I'm watching them and I just, oh, yum, it's so interesting, it's so beautiful. They're just completely mechanical ways of the survival instinct filtered through the upbringing and conditioning. But it was my life.

Ah, shit, it was heavy. Bob had a heavy one too. But yeah, it's always heavy. Comparing to that absence of that constant self-obsession, constant anxiety, everything gets heavy. Like, it's just so unnecessary. And yeah, it's just unnecessary. Yeah, so it is really all about getting back to awareness of being, The undeniable fact of the existence of being. Something that for the mind not only feels boring, but it feels like nothing. It even feels scary. It feels like nothing. So for the mind, mind can't grasp the nothing. It is designed to grasp objects, things. So you tell them cognizing emptiness and it will create an image of that cognizing emptiness.

Ridiculous. It doesn't work this way. The cognising emptiness is the very fact of being, is the aliveness. It can't be cognised because it is the cognising entity. So it is what is doing the cognising. And in the absence of any other words, this is what I am. Well, all I can say is that there is a knowing of being. Everything else is a concept and it drops off when I go to sleep. So it's not permanent, it shows up, it comes and goes, so it can't be trusted. Nothing else I can say that I am because it doesn't stay. Body doesn't stay, it's constantly changing.

I had different body yesterday. Bob says, before you walked into this door, millions of cells have been replaced. The body is changing, the hair have grown maybe one of a hundred of a millimeter, whatever. It's different. Mind, thoughts, personality, personality is updating itself because the database of the experiments, experiences, all that shit is updating. So personality is the model really through which we kind of express. It's changing. So feelings are changing, everything else is changing. The only thing that stays is the fact of existence, is the awareness, is the... And it's not really awareness of content, because awareness of content, the awareness is still the same, content is not.

The knowing is the same. Knowing of being a knowing of whatever is just still knowing. And really, knowing isn't separated from what is known, because if there was nothing to know, there wouldn't be a knowing. So that's really one thing that is artificially divided into two. It's just like seeing isn't separated from seeing. from what is seen or from who is doing the seeing. It's again that trick the mind offers to reassure its own separate existence. And that's cool because if not for that separate existence, well, that is what it is, so why question that? A lot of people, and I had this question also for many, many years, like this is really nasty.

If the awareness is loving to be, is also wonderful and is so loving and so good, Why would it condemn these poor humans to a suffering of having a separate ego? Well, that's a question coming from a strong judgment. The space doesn't really have any judgment. It doesn't really think that the thrill of real deep sadness or suffering is anything but. It's like a vacation from the eternity. That being timeless and spaceless and going for a ride in the time and space. That's what it is. Whether it's good or bad, we can have an opinion. But ultimately, from the depth of being, it is what is.

It's neutral. It's just what is. So that's... and it isn't. And it isn't at the same time, because this is manifestation, this is illusion. It doesn't really exist. It's just an appearance, it's just a rainbow. But it's a beautiful rainbow and it can be appreciated and it can be loved. Yes, so half an hour? Yes, so how are you doing with it? I mean, do you have any sort of a, like, even in that one aspect of the knowing of being, of that awareness of existence? Because I remember I used to meditate, it was part of the so-called path, where I used to sit in the head and watch out from the head how well I'm doing by just being, and controlling and checking my own being and my own thoughtlessness.

That's what happened, and that's okay. You know, like we don't really have any other way to start. This is where the whole search begins. It begins from interpreting everything from the standpoint that we are so grounded and so well seated in from the head. Slowly it deepens up and it shows itself up in a more headless way, in a way in which it is not so intellectual, it is not so rigid and dry. It becomes the sweetness that comes from even the bliss coming from the silence when the mind doesn't stand in the way, when it doesn't cover that beauty of the appearance with the layer of judgment.

That moments, we all know those moments, we all know moments of absolute beauty, of standing on the top of the mountains or seeing something that we totally love like a beautiful cat or flower on night sky, the sky with stars or everything. The beauty which is so breathtaking that it stops the mind. There is no idea that there is me watching and it should be different. It is quiet, the head is quiet. That's why actually I was mentioning it today also. For some reason I was very attracted to becoming a ship's navigator because it was as close as I could possibly get to the sense of non-existence when you are exposed to the vastness of the sky and the ocean and there is nothing that you can hang onto.

It was my idea of Nirvana. There is no me, it's just that absence, that space. And it does leave you speechless and breathless. And this is the moment with no self. So then something gets wrong. Like Nisargadatta says, the whole thing about freedom from the sense of contraction, of the suffering inferior void that is feeling unworthy. The and I Am self-awareness. Oh boy. So it's a natural state and very often people think, oh yeah, but you know what, I'm not there yet because I don't feel the ecstasy, I don't feel the bliss, I'm not like Bob, I'm not like Muji or whatever, I feel that I'm different, I'm separate.

Yeah now there is a screen of awareness and there is a knowing of the ideas that are being believed I not that yet This is all wrong It should be different That is just a game of beliefs If I pause the thought for a moment and ask myself, what am I without the thought? What am I? If I think I'm the body, that's a thought. If I think I'm the thought, what am I? The mind stops. My question was, what is the I? What is it? What is the ego? What is the I? It's just... I can't answer it because... like your question was shown...

no? What was it? With the I. My I. My I. Show me my I. What is... yeah, it just feels so wrong. It can't be answered and it's right away seen for what it is. It's just a riddle. It's just a thought. So there is no answer to the question who am I or what am I. There is just a dissolution of a question. So now, when I hear the question who am I, like who cares? I don't give a shit what am I. Who cares? I am what I am. Why would I want to write a story about what I am? I am. I can become an actor or Actress and just say, oh yeah, okay, I'm a woman or I'm Polish.

Who cares? I don't. Sometimes people ask me questions, oh, where are you from? I can tell them a little story. But that's not, that's, yeah, that's just playing the game. And it's cool to play the game because that's, this is a ride. We can enjoy the ride. We can play the stories. We can cry with those who suffer. And it is happening, absolutely, it's happening. When I see someone, especially, of course, because that's the conditioning, you know, I don't cry thinking about someone who I never met going through a toothache, but I will cry when my cut is hurt, because that's, you know, that's how the frequency works.

Yeah, it's the tuning there. But yeah, and I will be sad and heartbroken and I'll be enjoying it. Well, there's no idea that I shouldn't be sad and therefore the emotion of sadness, the emotion of heartbreak, there is a sweetness to it because it's not mine and because I don't need to get rid of it and because I don't need to fix it. It's there. This is what life is experiencing right now, just like in nature. The On the screen or in the space of awareness takes a sting of it. Now I'm the knowing space and there is a pattern going on and there is a resistance going on.

There's something going on, but it's not mine anymore. I'm not this anymore. Now I'm space and I allow everything to come because I don't I don't care. I don't have any preferences. I don't care. As space, as life, everything is beloved. Everything is included, everything is allowed. And of course the personal pattern will come up because that's also included. So if there is a toothache, I'll take the painkiller and I'll call the dentist. It's not that because everything is allowed, this is not taken care. This is being fed, this is being dressed, even has mascara occasionally. It's okay, it's a pattern, it doesn't matter. It's move to do whatever is move to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had an interesting experience the other day. I was just walking along the footpath. And I heard this noise. I didn't think much of it until the postman on the motorbike came down the corner and we nearly collided. Oh boy. As soon as I saw him and I realized what it was, that's when I freaked out. Uh-huh. So I just thought it was interesting that when I first heard the motorbike, this all happened in like a split second, I didn't do anything but then when I could recognize and I guess I had a thought of, you know, like danger or something, I don't know what it was but that's only when I...

When you heard the full mental picture of what is really going on. So I've just been thinking in the last few days whether we can really have an experience without a thought or something. Well, everything we see in the world is already interpreted by the mind. This is the way Rai Bukhita is explaining it beautifully. It says that mind is another sense, is another, you know, like seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. All of them, every sense is operated by the mind. The way you are seeing, you are using the mind to recognise things. You are already relating them from the things of the past to your past experiences.

You wouldn't even find the door if you didn't really recognise them as a door. You wouldn't recognise people that you know. It is all already, the mind is already operating. It's like a software in the computer. You have the camera in the computer but the software is actually downloading pictures interpreting it and commenting on it Does that mean that what we see is not actually what is out there No, well if you see the beautiful simulations of what the bee is seeing, or what other animals are seeing. They are different. Totally, totally different. Some are seeing in infrared. Some are seeing like a fly, I think.

She's got like thousand little cells on the eye, completely different picture. Like, yeah, there is no objective reality out there. There is no world apart from what the mind projects and interprets us as the… The real seeing of thoughts or… Yes, yeah, the interpretation. Yeah, totally. And hearing also, it's just, it's so fast, it's amazing. When you think about how you experience your own body, like how you experience your feet if you don't look at them, like just that foot that sits on the carpet, how you experience it, you feel some sort of a sensation of the touch, and the mental picture of the foot and the carpet comes with it so quickly that you can't actually, well, you can kind of force it away, And now, would you be able to actually distinguish the foot from the carpet?

It's just one sensation. Objectively, it's one sensation because, you know, it is. But with the mental picture, with the interpretation, it feels like there are two objects meeting and in the meeting point of those objects there is a sensation. But you don't even know the shape of your foot without the mental picture. It's shocking how quickly this software is operating everything. It's beautiful too. It's amazing. It's such a machinery. But there are people with Alzheimer's, with the memory loss, and they operate differently. People with Parkinson's, like, you know, it actually affects the spatial awareness. And they kind of see things a little bit smaller or wider or bigger.

It is the computer. It's absolutely brilliant, but it's still a bio-computer. It can have faulty programs, it can get viruses, it can get reprogrammed. It seems to me there's maybe a couple of types of thinking because another experience a few weeks ago, I was just waiting for a train and I had a lot of thinking going on about this topic. And then all of a sudden, spontaneously, this thought came to me, Surrender to the natural. Yeah, because there's few people... No, few people in Europe watching, they actually like to hear what people say in the room, understandably so. So, I'm just sitting at the train station and I'm having a lot of thinking about these kind of topics.

And then this thought just came to me to surrender to the natural intelligence in me. And then as soon as that happened, pretty much, not all thinking, but most of it just went away. I'm just sitting there going, wow. Obviously to cognize that I'm still having some kind of thinking, but it's hardly not much at all. I Am. I am attracted to that type of message or whatever. For some reason there is something appealing that you shown up here. That type of thoughts start resonate, start resonating and you start showing up. And probably the more attention goes into it, the more often you will experience that type of...

It all kind of feels like a play of waves, vibrations, resonance. There's nobody doing anything. You can't think the thoughts, you can't force it, you can't speed it up, you can't own it, you can't take credit for it. Well, you can, but it will be just another thought. What about ghosts? What about them? Well, I mean, they're pretty real. Are they? If you believe it. Well, I don't know about believing it, but I mean, like when one stabbed me on the hand, and, you know, there's a six-foot bloke who's just woken me up. Yeah, I had my cats seeing ghosts. I Am That, Ramana Maharshi, I Nchagiri, Dzogchen, Veda, Veda.

Walking on the water levitating whatever Beautiful There is no rules to it It infinite creativity And cool I mean gosh it is how it looks at itself through your eyes And my cats also I couldn see anyone on the chair but the cats would bark at it like In a house that I was renting, someone died there. We were living with a ghost for a few months. How often do you see ghosts? Oh, not that often, but from time to time. It's wonderful. Okay. Yeah, it's juicy. Everything is beloved. Does that mean that the cat is just saying his own thought? No. No, I mean, you can call everything thought.

You can call the chair, this is a thought manifested by the mind and believed in to be solid. In this way, yes, you can say cat is also seeing a thought in a form of carpet or food or whatever. Maybe like the ghost though. Usually cats seeing ghosts. Yeah, yeah. They are reacting. See, dogs can smell drugs. I can't. They can smell your fear and they will bark at you. I can't. They may see and sense frequencies that we are not... Yeah, that's all it is. If we say they are reacting to a ghost, it's just our judgement. Yes, it says the frequency that is creating some sort of a response on the furon in a behavior.

Where does the ghost start and stop and where does the aura start and stop and where does Australia start and stop and where does my name start and stop? You know, it's just labeled in the end of the day and kind of firmed up, imaginarily. All of this is just meaning making, and without the meaning making there is experience of some sort. Nothing can be said about it because no thought came into it to actually be able to say anything about it. We need it, but we just don't need to take it too seriously. We don't need it really, it just happens anyway. We can freak out about it, or not freak out about it, that's going to happen anyway.

What was that you said? To communicate though, you need it. That communication happens of some sort but even then trying to label communication, what is it? What do you mean it happens? Blah blah blah blah, like I hear it, blah blah blah blah, oh okay, here it goes, blah blah blah. Don't plan it, I just notice sometimes... No, I'm just saying that you probably need thinking to communicate, that's all I'm saying. That could just be chatter that happens as well, we don't really know what's a cat, what's a horse, what's... Animals and insects communicate without thought. And also if you notice the way thoughts... If you notice the thoughts, how they pop up, like the thought you had about surrendering, you didn't really think it, it just showed up.

So that's all thoughts show up like this. We only think, oh yeah, I thought, I was thinking. This is only the language that gives us a credit for thinking. Thinking is completely impersonal, it just shows up. I have no idea what I'm gonna say in five minutes, maybe nothing. Because it's not really my thinking. I never really think, you don't think either, they're just thoughts showing up. And some of them will be spoken and some won't. Yeah, but there is truth in that, you know, like as the human pattern we did develop the symbolic language and we use it for communication. So we can say we need it, or we can say it is what it is, that's what it is.

Like yeah, we don't want to regress to... or there are people who don't have... they had brain damage or something and they can't use symbolic language. We find that the way mind can be used is almost like a handicap. It's a dysfunction not to be able to use mental representation for objects to communicate without language. No animal in the nature has built a civilization or the social systems or stuff like this. That's the beauty and uniqueness of humans is to be appreciated. Although, yeah, it has its dark side too. Even now animals have designed atomic bombs or kill one another, rob one another, invent gold.

Yeah, it is what it is. I think there's a really important distinction there. A couple of things. Is it possible for you to intuit or for you to know without a thought? Okay, so you know you are, you know you exist, correct? Yep, you know you're alive, there's a beingness here, there's an awareness there. Do you need to walk around all day, every day, saying to yourself, I am, I am, I am, I am, I am, to be I am? You don't. You don't. But you know you are. The thought doesn't have to come up to tell you that you are. You know you are.

Except when you're sleeping. Yeah. It's another story. But then you don't ask yourself a question whether I am or not. It's no problem. Absence. So, what it sounded like... Okay, and the other thing you said was, surely when you thought to be able to communicate,

I Am. Is it? Can you have a look at that and examine for yourself whether or not that statement that you're making which is surely we have to think to be able to communicate. Is that true? Is it really true? What's an example of it not being true? Okay, while Kat was standing up there communicating to you, okay? Do you think Kat was thinking what she was going to communicate to you?

Or do you think it just completely came out of her mouth, completely spontaneously, without a thought as such? There was just communication that was happening. Yeah? I have another funny example. What I meant though was for Kat to actually... She needed to use words to be understood. That's what I really meant. Yeah, I got you. I show you another example because it's really sweet and funny. I find it really beautiful. It is NLP example, it's not mine. But look now. Oh God, I'm so happy. Oh God. I'm so depressed. Wow, I'm so depressed. How much did my words mean, really? Zilz. That's the beauty of communication.

It really doesn't need that much of the words. I could say the same things in my native language and you would probably understand this or you would understand this without even words. But don't we need to... I understood your body language, but that's also a thought I'm using to understand your body language. Are you sure? Because I can see how cats communicate. And you know when the cat get all the fur standing up, they don't need thought. The instinct runs right away, the other cat runs. But I'm just talking about my own experience. Yes, yes. When you went down like this, I recognized that. I didn't have a thought as such like, oh you're sad or whatever.

But I recognized it from memory or whatever. Absolutely. Yes. Oh yeah, yeah, you're totally right. You're totally right. The way the brain is designed as the biocomputer, it totally builds the database, it relates to the past experiences equally with animals, even in amoebas, I think. Like, they don't even have brains, but they're still learning. This is the genius of nature. It's like Bob says, it is all suffused with the intelligence, innate intelligence. Translation Basic neuronal connections. We use words, mental representations. So our memory is vastly larger, different and more sophisticated, more complex. It's just that a me defining it doesn't really need to happen. So these things could take place as communications and they could appear like little words up in your forehead here like they do with me.

But there's not really, it's just something that popped up, it's not actually anything in particular, it's just a happening. So there doesn't really need to be a me, oh that was a word and it means that. It just happens as a communication but it's not, if I never called it a communication it would just be a happening. It would never really have a boundary. It would never have a me making a boundary. It's just... It's just so wonderful that you're digging into it. It's great. Like, gosh, argue, disagree with everything because that's... But you're looking at everything. We're all looking. It's the sort of conversation where you all look.

Uh-huh. Yeah, absolutely. Question everything. And you can. I can actually beat myself with my own words. I can say, oh yeah, I just said this and this and the other, this and emptiness, space, cognizing. And I can just prove it wrong equally easy because it's all bullshit. Words are all bullshit. They're all so inadequate comparing to the naturalness of the silence. Like, yeah, how can you taste the silence using words? You can't. It's just the pointers. They're pointing at the moon. The finger pointing at the moon. But the fact that you're actually looking at it and you are willing to question and to see, Really?

Is that true? This is the attitude that actually gets you out of the way. That's what Bop was... the predominant pattern of personality was to doubt. Doubt everything. Absolutely everything. There's nothing to be believed here. If there's one thing that you want to believe it, you're gone. You're gonna waste your life. If there's... like, it was really funny, I loved it. I got a question under one of the videos from a very intelligent person who was saying, yes, so if the whole nonduality is about shedding your beliefs, why should I now believe that there is no me? Very good question. Like, so how am I better off believing that there is no self?

Sure you not Sure you not Sure you not And then if I better off believing that there is no me so why everybody is saying this is about shedding off the beliefs So what the heck? Now you are telling me to believe there is no me, and I should not believe anything. Beautiful. Absolutely believe nothing. Question everything. If the fact of there is no me is a belief, throw it to the rubbish. Because it is about dropping a belief that you need to believe in no self. If you think, oh, now I have to believe there is no me, drop it. You don't have to believe in anything.

This is what is true when the belief is absent and it's not needed anymore. It's just to see what's there when you don't think about it. Yeah, when you don't believe it. And there's just really no arising of such a thing as self or no self. There's just nothing going on. Except this, because there's no thinking going on, so how can, yeah, you just notice that a thought has to come in to make anything of anything. Nothing is made of anything. Yeah. As long as the pause, you know, the pausing is there. And it could be blah blah coming out, you know, it could be all sorts of things coming up and out, but you're not making meaning of any of them as they come through.

Yeah. You might see an oral memory of something that was said, a snippet, and you hear it after. And then, yeah. I totally relate with what you're saying, inclusion of everything. There's no belief, but you're using words to explain that there's no words needed. So there's a paradox of that, there's a contradicting of that, and we sit here and talk about it, but we're all sitting here physically as well. It's totally the opening and inclusion of both. The meaning-making and the non-meaning-making and the significance of it and it's not so significant. Beautiful. Everything is there and not there. Beautiful. Exactly. Total paradox. And it's all included.

And then you keep, and then you pause. Yeah. Nothing's really there. And at best, all we can really do is understand... That was just beautiful, by the way. That was just beautiful, what came out of you. Yes. Fuck. And in knowing that, in actually knowing that, what came out of you, Then there's the absolute realization that words are only pointers. They're not the actual thing. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I sit here sometimes and I hear stuff come out of my mouth. And I'm hearing it come out, and it's just spontaneously coming out. And there's also another part of me going, that's not true.

That's actually not true. Oh, okay, but this is what's coming out, so I just kind of let it land and let it do whatever it's going to do. Who knows why life does it? Sometimes people hear it and they interpret it in a way that shifts them. It gives you freedom, yeah, to play with words. Yes, totally. There's nothing here that stops it from finishing its spur. Sometimes you hurt someone and you say something that completely doesn't land. And they suffer stronger and more violently. And this is what they need. This is what life offers to them. And who am I to take credit or blame or whatever for it?

I don't do anything. It's all life. I don't beat my heart. I don't do the growing of my hair. I don't do any of it. There is an innate intelligence that is functioning that we pay no attention to. And I mean zip, because we are so focused in on our own personal identity, our own me, that believes it has free will, that it's running the fucking show, it's calling the shots, it's doing all the thinking, it's doing the choosing, the acting, the reacting and so on and so forth. I am a person of the I Am, I Am, I Am, I Am. The I am a member of the National Association of Indigenous Peoples of the Australian Government It makes you breathe in and out keeps your heart beating And we think we running the show Come on Like really we running the fucking show If I was running the show, my next primary concern would be that I took my next fucking breath.

And I don't, nothing, I don't think about it. So again, that's just an example of- Is my foot on the accelerator? Is it about to go on the brake? Is it about to go on the brake? Yeah, that's just an example of that intelligent synergy. And when you start to see through or let go of the confined intelligence that we operate from, you start to see that intelligence operating every fucking where. In a tree, in a cat. Cat. Everywhere. You just see it. It just... But it falls down when you get asleep. Yeah. So if we are... It doesn't fall down when you go to sleep.

No, it doesn't. That intelligence energy is always there. It does not fall down when you go to sleep. There is no awareness on that. There is awareness, actually. Do you think the... There is... Oh, sorry. We don't know because we don't remember. But we don't remember when we get drunk also. Who cares? Yeah, and it's not the reality of this moment. What's your question? Do you think this intelligence that's running the show creates our thoughts? Absolutely. Because you don't. The One expresses us everything. I don't what? Create the thoughts. Because if you could you'd change them. Why would you have a horrible thought? You'd change your whole opinion about yourself.

So if we're sleeping and we have a dream, then that's coming from, it's like a thought. Yep. Yeah, you've got a fairly broad, you do a two million year really broad definition of thought, so it's really exactivity almost. Yeah, much control over the thought activity that happens through you, whilst you're awake, as you do when you're asleep and dreaming. There is a dream character, there is you in that dream that's being buffeted, that's being knocked around by whatever is going on in the dream and it fucking seems real. You can experience fear, you can experience all sorts of horrible stuff in a dream. The dream character believes it is and what it is experiencing is real and all the dream content that is going on in that dream is also real.

The dream character has survival instinct, it doesn't want to die, it is afraid when it is in danger. The reason that analogy is used because the truth is it's exactly, there's no difference, it's exactly the same in this so-called manifestation. We all believe we're awake, walking around, running the show and doing stuff. We are completely fucking asleep or completely buying into the dream. Completely. Non-dreaming sleep. Well, that's just happening. Does it really matter? Yeah, let's address it. Because yes, it is confusing. It is an important topic that what happens when there is no memory. And I like the way Bob is explaining it. Like you see, the awareness is there because if someone calls you loudly in a deep sleep, you'll wake up.

If you hear your name, you will wake up. Or if something happens to your body, you wake up. So there is something that is aware. That is something that is... you see the instinct is still running. The memory is not working. It's like you switch off the application that is recording in the computer. It's not recording. But the computer is still running. The blood is still circulating in the body. It's just the memory that stops recording. Recording starts when there is a danger, like you will remember when someone wakes you up or calls you. That could be the body, you see. Yeah, totally, because the bio-computer contains the application that has the recording bit.

And it is. So we can't say that there is no awareness, but we can say that we don't remember. Do you have night awareness? No, no. For me it is the way I experience the world, there is a gap. I go to sleep and I wake up six or seven hours later. Well, I do remember a couple of dreams, pretty vividly, but apart from those, no, there is a gap. There is a gap in the memory. I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so rested, I had wonderful sleep. And the body is energized. It's much more energy in the morning than it was when I was getting exhausted going to bed.

But there is complete gap. For six hours, blank. Memory off. And then another two hours, five different dreams. But I can't say that I'm absolutely certain that I didn't exist, because who am I to actually evaluate the existence or non-existence? I can't say anything. I can only say I have no damn clue, I don't know. The memory was off, I have no recollection, I don't remember. I contradict this notion that we are presence-awareness, because if we were, you'd have 24-7 awareness. Consciousness and awareness Yes and also the memory And awareness The awareness of being is one thing and the memory of certain part of the experiencing is another thing So it really is the awareness and also what Melanie says.

That's a good distinction that Bob sometimes uses, probably Nisargad was using also. That awareness is something that you would say The mind is completely devoid of objects and sense perceptions. It's a basic screen, it's completely empty. It doesn't have... it's like Shiva, it doesn't have the awareness of the world. The spirit doesn't know matter. So the emptiness doesn't know form, because they're one. So emptiness is form, so how can it know itself in a form? It can't. But there is a consciousness on it which actually is a Shiva with one eye closed. Now it can see. The consciousness is when awareness is filtered through this transformer and suddenly pure space becomes transformed by this mechanism, becomes the space of seeing, the time of thinking because the space is created by the sensory, by hearing, seeing And the time is created by the mind.

Suddenly the consciousness that was all there is, vast, completely undescribable, pure life, becomes filtered as the consciousness. Now it is aware of objects, it's projecting, manifesting and receiving the objects. And now if the consciousness, and it's using memory, it's using database, it's building up the whole model all the time, refreshing and refreshing with every blink of an eye. Now, if you switch off the memory when you get drunk or you get drugs and you kind of confuse your sense of time, then of course you can say, oh, I was unaware because I was unconscious, I was in coma. But you can't say you were dead, you can't say there was no being going on, there was no awareness or no consciousness of being, you weren't conscious of being.

Seeing awareness more as a holding point, like a zero notion in a way. Yes, awareness is screen, consciousness is the movie. Yes. I call it awareness of your unawareness. How could you say I slept well? Yes. There wasn't awareness, I wasn't appearing in awareness. That's a good word, unawareness. For now unawareness is going to be unawareness for me. When you wake up in the morning, don't say, I was unaware, do you? Say, I was aware now. I know I had a good sleep. There was an awareness of what was going on there. Nothing going on, no thoughts, nothing to translate it. Just a pure natural awareness.

I know I had a good sleep by how the body feels. Like if I'm all energetic and stuff, really I had a good sleep. What do you mean how the body feels? Well, I mean, I haven't had a sensible feeling in a while. Maybe I've had a good sleep. Some kind of time went down, even though there's no real explanation of the time. If I manage everything and stuff, then I know I've done well. But it's... I'm evaluating with the body. Some activity happened in the night. Yeah, and the evaluation is already labelling, it's already consciousness, it's already the mental process that compares to the database.

How would you know whether you were well or unwell if you didn't compare it with whatever you know? Yes, Professor John Wren Lewis that I knew who woke after an attempted murder, but he used to say that what happens at night is John Wren Lewis dissolves and becomes flat being is the way he would say. He has awareness and notices the body sleeping and all of that. Then in the morning he said, I am reassembled like a bud emerging from a tree. And I bounce through the day, the universe John Wren lewising. Beautiful. Yes, only to dissolve at night. Very occasionally. How many times does your name ever come up?

That was beautiful. I like that. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a good description. See, you can only describe it. So, the way, the beautiful, creative way people describe it, yeah, they're all good pointers. They're all not true, they're all words, but they're all good pointers. I like it. It's good. Yeah. But it would just be so rare, like, my name comes up for me probably once every few days of that, you know? And this so-called identity database we manufacture sometimes from time to time in places like this, or psychology or wherever, www.nisargad.com.au I remember a lot of totally crazily schizophrenic dreams. Like couple of times I was dreaming I was a man.

It was pretty amazing to actually figure out that my body is different and touch it and it gave me pleasure. Couple of times. Giving a birth, oh twice, giving a birth to like eight kittens. Seriously, a couple of times when I remember in my late twenties. I remember in my late twenties I caught the picture in the mirror because I was sitting with my older sister, who I don't have older sister, whose husband died, my sister is not married. I had a glimpse of my face in the mirror. I was in my sixties with black hair. Not often you can see the dream character in the mirror.

I did the lucid dreaming course and a couple of times it did happen. Experiments like this did happen. It was pretty amazing. I remember I was posting on few different forums about dreaming but nobody could relate to it. It's amazing. We do construct the dream character. So as you say, you know, like Katarina has been deconstructed and the sisters and the family and the husbands and everything has been deconstructed. And then out of this, the new, completely new story emerged and the identification with the story was very much there. And the waking dreams, I've experienced quite a few of those. Oh, yummy, like when you fly, you know, you can do anything, you know, you can just flip your fingers and change the weather in a dream because it's a dream.

Absolutely wonderful. And then there is a gap where nothing is remembered, nothing is experienced. It's kind of an experiment on watching a crime scene and then what you remember later after you've done a mathematical thing or whatever. And the gaps are just almost complete. You just totally reconstruct. It's just spontaneous reconstruction of some pieces of memory and a bunch of made-up stuff just popping up, popping up. End of the lecture. I don't even get it when people talk about it. And there's a lot of this stuff, if it just stops before that stuff gets inserted in, what's that like and it might come up as a pointer.

I first got that off Pete in a way, he said, Peter, wear the coat if I am that, and for me that was what that was. I like what Richard said, that quote about constructing your personality, Because this actually, if you really look at it this way, if you have the awareness of this is how the whole show works, you can now watch throughout the day how closely you're constructing Richard, or how this personality is constructed, the reactions, the behaviour patterns, the responses, they all are constructed, the constructs coming from the model that the memory stores. And if you see it for what it is, just a construct, just an operational model, you're free.

We're probably a lot more richer than you are right now. Yeah, you're free, you just see conceptual image for what it is. Where are you looking from? You are the pure space-like awareness, aware of the construct that has been used as the, you know, it's just a way to communicate. In the absence of any other patterns, I have this personality because this is there. If it has been reprogrammed one way or the other, it would be different. But because it wasn't, it just behaves the same way it did ten years ago. Oh, it doesn't. Ten years ago I would never open my mouth on a meeting in front of people.

No, I was too shy. But other patterns like food preferences or whatever is appreciated or not, It's just in absence of other patterns, it just still constructs itself, it's still expressed through whatever's available here. Well, we're all very glad that it does. Thank you, and Tito! It is kind of a destructing, you know. This is not about acquiring something, it's not about getting something. It's not about filling myself with some new understanding or some new experience that's called enlightenment, if you like. So as I'm going to now function better and feel better out there in the world. It's said a million times. You are already that.

And if you're already that, what are you going to get? So... Well, that's what you're getting. Touche, touche. So the whole idea here, hopefully it starts to get seen. Rather than acquiring, it's a... Stripping off. Stripping away. Who am I really? What am I? Is there a me? And the idea is to actually go in investigation of that. What is that? Do I have free will? Do I choose? Do I choose these thoughts that are going on in my, you know? And if I can be aware of all these feelings and if I can be aware of thoughts and sensations and ideas and actions and reactions and the body and so on if I can be aware of it I Am Self All the fucking stuff out there in here, all of that stuff.

Eventually what will happen is the inquiry will just naturally turn around and you'll start to inquire as to what the fuck is that that is aware that we give no attention to. None. We give no attention to it because we're so caught up in trying to Grab things and gain knowledge and gain an understanding or gain enlightenment or whatever. And that's all based on a person, a supposed person sitting here not feeling whole, not feeling complete, feeling separate from others, feeling isolated, feeling alone, having feelings of fear. Why? Because I'm separate. But you could hurt yourself and all that exists at that time is the pain.

No sense of separation from the pain. You are the pain. Yeah, all you can say is pain is, but there's a big difference between pain and suffering. Huge difference between pain and suffering. Pain is an actual... The So you've got two things going on. You've got the pain that's there and you've got an entity that's also suffering as a result of the pain. There's your split straight away. That's the split that just happens straight away. So this is about stripping back. It's not about getting. It's so not about getting. None of the teachings, whether it be this or fucking whatever, it's about letting go. It's about stripping back.

If there is only one omnipotent God, if there is only one God, and all the fucking religions say that, come on, all of them say that, if there's only one God, how can there be any I Am. Is it a thing? Does it have existence? Where is it located? What does it do? That's it. Polytheistic religions don't have that problem. Yes, polytheistic. I want to acknowledge what you just said, because this is a really important aspect also. Not only... Well, this is actually a different aspect. When Terry says that I'm not the pain, I Am the awareness of the pain. And now you say when the pain occurs there is just pain and I am this pain.

You're both right because investigation is easy when you actually figure out what you are not. So I'm not the pain because I'm aware of the pain. I'm not the body because I'm aware of the body. This is temporary step because the moment you recognize that what you are not, they are just objects on the screen of the awareness, you recognize the emptiness of it. Like because you left with nothing. Okay, I'm not this, not this, not this, not this. What am I? I'm nothing. I'm nothing. Oh my God, I'm nothing. Can anything come from nothing? No. So everything else is also nothing. So, I am everything.

Now, without the mental process of the investigation, you're totally right. If there is no separation from the pain, you're the pain. There's nothing else. There's no one who knows about the pain. It's just the pain. Very important aspect because often people get tripped over like, ah shit, what am I, what am I not? It's only in the thinking. When the thinking comes in, oh yeah, I'm not this, oh I'm in, it gets just too busy in the head. So S&M is the way forward. What is it? S&M. Say the masochism. It's probably life addiction. For some of the patterns, yeah, sure, life is infinite, it expresses us everything.

Apparently, S&M is in at the moment. Oh, is it? I heard so, yeah. What did you say? S&M is in at the moment. It is a fashion. It a fashion But it actually this is what happens when because the whole body mind is wired for pain and pleasure What we actually do we seek more pain and avoid full sick more pleasure and avoid pain and everything gets desensitized Like you want more sweet sweetness. You want more loud music you want more violent sex Everything gets like I want more now because I'm wired for pleasure. This is not good enough now. Give me something stronger. And what happens...

I find violent sex pleasurable by the way. Yeah, yeah, me neither. But yeah. Some people they just don't have enough. They're not sensitive and it's not their fault. The sensitivity is covered like you know... Just thought you'd clarify that. Bob was telling me when he was quitting smoking cigarettes, his taste buds were dead, were blunt. He was eating sunflowers and they didn't taste at all. It took few weeks, he said, few weeks, before he could taste sweetness of them. This is what we do, hunting pleasure and really desensitizing ourselves. It's just a craving. You can only notice the craving. You don't notice anything else. That's right.

I am wanting more, more adventures, more experiences, more anything that takes me away from that unworthiness or that sense of void. Like, oh gosh, this is sedation. I go on the internet shopping or I go on the addiction to drugs, to whatever, just to have a break from myself. I am not a person who is going for a vacation or adventure or affair, whatever, what gives me a break from that sense of void and insecurity and incompleteness. And then you can find you've been doing stuff all the time, like I watched two hours of a movie, the whole time I've been tense and hoping something's going to happen for them but I didn't notice it, because I was enjoying some storyline, you know, it's like there's so much going on when you're just blinkedly fixating on, yeah.

And now with that need for stronger stimuli, all the time stronger, give me more dramatic movie, more scary thrill, more fast cars or whatever that is just more, try and switch into a nothingness of the vacuum, empty, void space and find the sweetness of that silence and stillness. It is almost impossible because we just got addicted to so much salt and sugar on our food that it tastes blunt. But sit with it, it will change, it will reveal itself. You convinced me, where do I sign? Yeah, good one! I appreciate the moments when nothing was going down and you know it. I would absolutely hate to convince anyone to become a believer of nonduality.

My mother asked me once, why is the nonduality better than any other belief system? I say, well, if you take it to be a belief system, it is not. It's equally ridiculous and just throw it to the rubbish. It is not. It is what is left when beliefs are absent. For as long as they are absent. And there is no such thing as nonduality. The mind will try and make it a belief. Totally. Oh yeah. Because on the beginning of the past, there is no other way to actually, to even resonate with that because everything goes through the mind. And that's okay. But only briefly, and there's gaps on either side.

We just remember the part where there were no gaps. And it's like if you have a film. It's not a film, there's a whole bunch of slides and gaps between them. Transport is a believer of that. I did on the platform Mind the Gap. Yeah, I took a part of that since I was three nondual at the time. Yes, yes. I like your perception. Mind is really a gap. Yes. It's just a gap. And in Britain they've got a mental health organisation and it's called Mind Out. Cool. Yeah. And of course, it is not to undermine the mind. Mind is absolutely wonderful. What a computer!

Like, would you throw it to the rubbish? It's brilliant, it's gorgeous. But if we get addicted to it and it just toss us around and torture us because we, as the space, are so believing in it and so relying on it, there's no way out. All we can see is the projection of the mind and there is no gap. Ouch! It's really just activity. It is the activity, but see... It's just activity, but... The mind is designed to... as a tool of the expression for the self. And it has this little funny faulty software which is called separate self or the ego, which takes the ownership and filters everything through it.

Cool, because there wouldn't be any awakening if there wasn't falling for a dream. And there is no awakening from the dream. There is no... well, as far as we can experience, we can't experience awakening from the dream. We can experience awakening to the dream, when we realize dream as a dream. Awakening from the dream, I don't know if it can be experienced, and I can't tell you, because when the body is dead, I won't have the apparatus to communicate, to speak. So we don't know, but awakening to the dream. How do I see you? Yeah! You come to me, I actually ghost you. Yeah! It makes mindfulness a funny name, doesn't it?

Yes yes Mind emptiness would be so much better Mindlessness When the mind is empty you feeling you full of all the sensations that are being felt So and sometimes some of them are just like wow that exists and they could have just been a void You know, there's just that, that wow, just a real experiencing something so much that it's incredible. There's no such thing as mind when you look at it. Mind is nothing but thinking. The The pain is probably a momentary resistance, it might not even be noticed. The other day I really experienced that. In between, normally either I'll take fear, like Bob's thing about fear is really just a bunch of memories you apply to a sensation you get sometimes.

Sensation comes up, oh, I feel like that fear, I once felt, oh, I don't like that. You actually worded it even better. I took the fear out of it and then I just got sensations, buzz, a bit of heat, a bit of you know a few other sensations. Fear's utterly gone. But the other day I got what I think most people talk about is the in-between one where fear pops in, you know, gets started up, but it never really gets that label put on and the whole story of not liking it never really gets put on. www.nisargad.com I think there's categories and I think people can often be talking about things that are still confused a bit with a bit of storying, a bit of labelling, and things that are quite empty of label, although they become other labels because then you put something hot, that's a label.

I'm going to open that one up again once I tried what's cold if it's not cold. Okay, it's kind of like a heavy lead thing that I've never Couldn't even describe, you know and and just finds little layers of labels in there But yes, it's more fun of you down here than over there How did you say applying past memories to the sensation that is going on? Yes, yeah, he's talking about the relating to the past yeah Yeah, you say up like, yeah, I like it. Plane pass, yes, you just, yeah, there was a bunch of things to do with fear that you didn't like, and that, yeah, they go with those sensations, they trigger in those memories, and all the things that you reacted to and didn't like about those get triggered back in, and then it can get another bigger story, you know, like, oh shit, that's going to happen again, oh, that's going to come up, and that's going to make that worse.

So this is like all a little wee ownerships of labels, their definitions, and if the definitions aren't there, you're not thinking about it, you're relaxed, there's nothing wrong. Beautiful. And it doesn't mean that we can or we should stop labelling, but really, precisely, understanding the whole process of labelling makes it obvious what is going on, makes it very, very clear. And in this pattern that tends to be associated with it disappearing. Can't say one causes the other, can't say... It's just a package deal going on. Package deals differ in different people. This one's more about observation from here, the head. Emotional stuff, know very little about, but it seems to be resolving itself.

Also the basic investigation, okay, I labeled it as fear. I didn't do it, the label came up. Now, what it really is, if I take the label aside, and I'll find just a bundle of sensations, vibration, pulsing, throbbing, whatever, some sort of a sensation. Totally depersonalized, just neutral. Yeah. So the label will still come up, and that's fine. But recognize the dream as a dream. Recognize the label as a label. Recognize thought as a thought. And then they are utilized, they are used. We can't stop label, why would we? And as an extrication process, it doesn't even come up that often because it's just a teaching tool that needs to happen a couple of times.

But then what does happen eventually is like the depersonalization just zaps out all the time. It's like, yeah, nah, it's just not me anymore. It didn't matter. It wasn't about me. And it's like, oh, that's quite funny all that shit's happening in relation to that, what usually is a fear. And wow, that's going down and not even bothered about the next step even though I'm going along to the job that I usually fear. There's just like this funny reactions going on, it's quite a giggle, yeah, and it doesn't even create the next level of fear, next journey of fear because, yeah, it wasn't, it stopped being owned.

And it just happened, but so... Tony is telling us it's overtime. Thank you. Tony's our clock. Our clock that doesn't exist. Yeah, the time that doesn't exist. The time is a mental construct. It's cool Tony, he sits in the corner. Thank you.