Sailor Bob and Sailor Kat - non duality 30 Aug 2018

We're in, what was the subject? Colin McDonnell. Is that a nude baby? Sorry? Is that a nude baby? There you go Bob, there's a nudie Japanese place. There's a nudie Japanese spa. Just a nudie. Yeah, we're ready. Well just to fill you in, I'm having a rest for a few weeks after the operation and all the things and Kat's going to take it over. There's a few of you can talk on it, Terry's got a good grasp of things. So away you go. Yeah, he may join in, like questions that come from the group he may, just when he feels like speaking I always hope that he will.

And yeah, on top of that, that I can fill you in for the last couple of days because last couple of meetings he said the same thing. And he had a go with me when I was trying to engage him. I didn't include him so I'm not allowed to even invite him to speak because I'm going to be in trouble. But he can be still quite fiery. But what I've noticed for the last few days, he's picking up the phones, he's speaking on Skype, he's still having one on one. So if someone really has the need, and this is a game changer, to really speak to him is still doable.

And hopefully in a couple of weeks he'll be, yeah. Energised. Yeah. So he didn't refuse any of the seekers that we're calling, so you can always call. Okay, so, well, what can I do? He told me that if I will refuse to speak he will close the damn thing up. And we don't want it to happen because in a couple of weeks he may want to speak again. So I've been blackmailed. No, I'm not suffering, I do like to speak about it. It's not a crime, it's not a punishment, it's okay. Yeah, we. Thank you. I do actually enjoy it. We were talking with Terry on the car.

It's just so much easier and so much better and so much more effective when it is personalised. When you actually speak one on one with a person. And that's what Bob prefers. And he left the cream on the thought, he's still eating, you know. Because once you actually ask people questions, they tell you where they are, they use a particular language. Now Bob can answer in their own language. own language, in their own vocabulary. That's just a game changer. That's what actually, that's what ended my search. Like I was sitting here with him and crying my eyes out of a misery. And he would just ask gentle guiding questions and I would find out the answers within.

And that's the way because, well, that's the way because nobody can give you the answer. Because the search ends when the seeker ends. So it's not about having the questions answered. It is about having no questions. When the questions don't come up anymore, there is no problem. Like what is ever wrong unless we think about it? What is, what could possibly, anyone could conceive of a problem without the thought? Yeah. So the question, I'm not there yet, or I kind of understand it intellectually, but I can't feel it. Or any other thoughts, they have to be thought first and then believed. Without the thought and the belief going into, but I still feel identified.

That's a belief again. So if that one is questioned and the investigation resolves it, because, well, the truth is, if we really look within, there isn't anyone inside. There isn't. There is only... There is only going to be a thought appearing on the screen of awareness. There is no separate self. There is no entity, ego or me. There never was. Nobody had ever found it. Yeah, but I believe I'm the body. Well, okay. That's a thought. What if you stop thinking? Do you still believe you're the body? Yeah, yeah. Okay. But I'm the thinking. Well, how come you aware of your thinking? You can't be the thinking if you are aware, conscious of your thinking.

You have to be, you are conscious of it. So it is an object. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. No. Ehh... Hmm. And I think the subject in consciousness. But then last week, the wise young man says, but you know, how about the feelings? They feel so close? I think somebody's there. Just hold it. Yeah, no. Oh, all right. Thank you. It feels so close to the heart. Like if I'm anxious or if I'm angry or if I'm in love that it feels so personal. It, oh. It's a ghost. Okay, I've seen the light coming. Yeah, the light is coming.

Yeah. Yeah. And for me also, that was the last sort of a flank of identification going. Because when I met Bob, I already knew I wasn't the body or the mind. I knew it. It was just, yeah, of course. Like, why would I even believe that crap? But there was a feeling, an identification with that surge of emotion, particularly unworthiness, the sense of contraction, I'm not there, I'm not, you know, the suffering. Like, that's something so close and so intimate and so contracted and kind of tight and uncomfortable that I could not possibly say, yeah, of course, there is nobody there. I'm space, I'm life, I'm nothing.

Because it just felt so real. It felt so solid, that emotional surge. But I was also aware of it. There was also awareness of it. Even that sensation. And for me, it was a sensation of devastation coming up from a regret that someone that I invested a lot of my time and love and life could not possibly really see me for what I am. But so couldn't I. He had a conceptual image of me which was ugly. I was unworthy of love. I was just ignored. Yeah, it was ugly. But I had a conceptual image of me also, which wasn't that pretty either. I was unworthy.

I was unlovable. So the conceptual... The conceptual image, whether pretty or ugly, who cares, is still a conceptual image. And of course, if it's a powerful, strong, charged, loaded, emotional image, it will shorten your breath. It will just make the breath shallow. It will bring you depressed. It will steer the hormones and emotions in the body. It will make the, you know, gosh, it will change the biochemistry of the whole machine. And... And it will feel very physical and very solid. But again, even that search of emotion, even that search of sensations in the body was known. I was aware of it. So how could I be it?

Only through a belief. The only way to identify with the content of the screen of awareness is to believe it. And, well, can we blame ourselves for believing it? How many people did you meet who don't believe it? Who don't take it for granted? Of course, there is a me, my life, my personal life. Of course. Like apart from Bob, a handful throughout my life. And I was a seeker. I was serious seeker. I was going to the big gurus because I wanted to hang around with people who don't believe their separate self. But most of the guys, they just take it for granted. My parents, my teachers, my...

Everyone who was... I was ever admiring, who I wanted to be like them because of course I was much worse. I was much... Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They took it for granted. Yeah. I'm self. I have to get better, work on myself, grow, do the resolve the inner child issues or go for a psychotherapy or deserve love. You know, if I'm abused emotionally, right, then I just have to keep giving more. I have to be loving more. I have to be, oh gosh, I can't get angry. Yuck. What a life.

Like gosh. It's so against nature even to try to be a positive figure or pretend to be one. It's like, gosh, like really the natural state. This is what the non-duality, well, it's a bad word. It's a dualistic word. But what it all is about is about the natural state, something that is there all along that is birthright of every being. It's the awareness of the nature. Yeah. There is an awareness of being. Everything has a being and a humans at least because I can only speak for myself. I don't know what awareness the cat has. But yeah, there is an awareness of being and this is a natural state.

On top of that natural state, there are concepts, ideas, there are ideas, what am I, who am I, how am I, there are judgments, there are comparisons and all I could think of myself is always in the relation to the background. You know, I can't say that I'm ugly if I don't compare myself with somebody. Yeah. But I can say that someone who I judge as pretty is always relative, is always relating. So it's conceptual. It doesn't, you know, it has relative reality, all that stuff, especially when it's believed because when it's believed, the belief, the very act of belief is what brings it into reality.

Like believing in a tooth fairy or believing in angels. I know people who actually spend their whole adult life being told. I mean, I'm totally happy having contacts with angels because they believe it. Why not? I mean, this is a game of belief. We also believe that we're sitting here in a room because every single thing that we come across is basically the projection of this transmitter receiver that is interpreting everything. We learn how to interpret reality. And in every tradition, they tell us that what we see, the material objective sort of a world is Maya, is illusion. Even the religions, they say, what was the Muslims, they were saying?

There is only God and nothing else or was it? Oh, there is, yeah, something like that. Like God is real. Nothing else is real. Unless the wall and the carpet and everything is God, it's not real. So okay, it's not real. It's just not. It's Maya. It's an illusion. It's a manifestation. So let's start from what is real. And what is real, what nobody can ever deny or question is the awareness of existence. Like yeah, we can say I don't exist, but that's just the concept because to even say it, I do have to exist first. So there is an existence and that is not an illusion.

And that is something that even everything else is discarded and is questioned. That sense of existence never goes away. It stays there. And it is funny because we hear and it's really hard to speak non duality using dualistic language that everything in the language has its opposite. So we call it awareness, but it's not an object. It's not a thing that you can call awareness and you can be aware from outside of awareness. No, all we call itself and then the self is kind of like a singular word, but word but it's not really it's nothing is. Yeah. There's a lot of labels for it cognising emptiness or awareness of presence or such and a lot of words, but none of those words, Bob's words, activity of knowing, which is intelligence, energy, beautiful world.

Yes, it is the activity, which is a vibration of the of of knowing the energy movement of the awareness. But it's still not it because those are words and words naturally represent objects we use in our language. Words to point out at something that is standing out of the background of the space, even a space we use as a as an object. So this thing can't be described. It can't be experienced because it is an experience thing. So but it can't be denied. So everything else can't be can be denied. Like you know, I can deny that I'm human. It's very easy. When someone hypnotise me and tells me that.

I'm an animal and I'll start. Yeah, it was even the Zen stories about the guy who was meditating and he was instructed to watch the bull to become like nature. And then he couldn't get out of the of the window in the room because the horns were stuck in on the way. So it is you know, the people gosh, I have a lovely, lovely schizophrenic cousin who can believe anything you want. I mean, she's not Napoleon or Jesus. But you know, there are people who believe whatever they want to believe. But this can be questioned. I can easily question on the body. I can because I'm aware of it.

I can question on the mind. I can question on human anything that has an objective sort of a flavor can be discarded, can be argued, can be dropped away, but not the sense of existence. I can't. Well, whatever in this moment, I can't deny my existence. So this is something that is undeniable. This is something that is beyond. It can't be questioned. This is the only reality of which we are certain. This is some this is a place where everything starts. I am the for our thing. I am the for is the world I am the for is the body and I am doesn't mean that there is an eye that exists.

It means the being it means that the pure existence. So this is this is the place where, where it all starts and where it all ends. And I am. I am the for this. The problem with it is that because we would conditions to, first of all, avoid the pain and go out from the immediacy of the sensations and feeling and everything to the head to explanation of it because it hurts less. And secondly, because we learn the language or maybe reverse, maybe the language will be who cares. Anyway, we were conditioned to interpret world in the terms of language. which objectify the world. So now, to put the attention on emptiness, sense of existence, feels so uncompelling, uninteresting.

It feels boring. Like, come on, the brain, the mind will tell me wonderful stories. There's so much entertainment going on here. And there's so many important things going on there. Like, come on, what about my future? What about my past? What about what they feel or think about me? All that yummy stuff, juicy stuff, this stuff that is dramatic, that is potent, that is, yeah, it is, gosh, it is entertaining. And then put it next to the sense of existence. Nothing in there. Blunt. There's nothing yummy about it. Like, try and sit and meditate and have no thoughts. Oh, what's so beautiful about that? Peace, silence, boredom.

Because we used to sit in the head so long, all our life, that now to drop off from the head to the gut or to the heart, just feels, you just can't do it. It just feels, it's difficult. It is doable. Usually, it seems like being exposed to that frequency, being attracted to that frequency of resting the attention back, withdraw the attention from the phenomenal world. Back into the, into the sense of existence, into the being. That very stepping back from the story, from the movie, from the dream, it has, it is almost like reacquired taste that we've forgotten as babies. The taste of just, of just being, deliciously peaceful, vast sense of just.

Just presence. And from that sense of presence, world doesn't disappear. But reality and the solidity of the world loses its impact. So the pain is still pain, but there is no resistance to pain. There is, so there is no suffering. And in the absence of suffering and in the absence of self obsession, of thinking, oh, what am I going to do tomorrow? Just, just this lot of, lot of thinking. Yeah. A lot about me. In the absence of that part, suddenly, oh my gosh, I can hear the birds. And the water sparkling, like we've been in this hot springs today. Oh, so much beauty. So much beauty of the rain dropping in the water and having all the circles around and the birds and the, and the sound of the water and the interaction with people.

You just see so much more. Suddenly life gets so much more intense, rich and beautiful. And even though, you know, it's a dream, you know, it is projected world from which you're not separate. You're one of it. You are, you kind of ask life, ask space, give yourself eyes to see the reflection of your own creativity. It's beautiful. It just gets so much more easy, natural and flowing, but you can't get there because you already are there. Yeah. You can't really become that. You can't really learn that. It's about unlearning, undoing. It's because attention habitually goes into the story, into the self obsession, into the conceptual world.

Like how much time we actually spent sitting around and savoring the world in this moment as it is. Hearing every sound, seeing everything. Yeah. Seeing new in everything and tasting and touching and smelling and being aware of every tension in the body and being aware of breathing. Just really having that attention unfixated in the head. Usually very quickly the thought comes, Oh yeah, but what about my mother? Oh, what about this? It's just completely missing out on life because there's such so much more going on in there. It's so much more kind of juicy. It's like the intensity of life. Yeah. It's like the intensity of the dream is so compelling that you can't like tell you've explained it so beautiful.

I loved it on last meeting. He was saying, you know, there was a thought in which he was beating himself up, really torturing himself. And then for a moment the thought lifted and he woke up from it like, Oh, that's just a thought. And the next thought came, Oh shit, wait, wait, this was important. This was important. What was it? It feels so important. Every anxious thought, every feel for thought. Come on, come on. This is about the dream. It's about the secure. It's the safety of the body. I have to grasp this thought. I keep beating myself up. This is important. It's just so much of our life.

And this was most of my life really obsessing about myself and in about the ways that I have to make myself secure. And for me it was the way to get secure was to get sympathy. I had to smile all the time because then people won't reject me. They will like me. Everybody will be happy. Impossible. I had people hating me for being inauthentic. And it was impossible. I had people hating me for being inauthentic. And it was fear speaking. And oh gosh, I wanted to the most of my life invisible. She has been visible. Just quietly. Nobody will see you. It'll be fine. Gosh.

And people have different strategies. There are people who confront others before they get confronted and all the strategies. They just magnificent because now I'm watching them and I just, Oh yeah, it's so interesting. It's so beautiful. They just completely mechanical ways of the survival instinct filters through the mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but usually I was fascinated changed once and I was like, wow, wow. Same point. Even though, you know, the different social networks as well as the social methods.

The rest of the久 of, um, the suicide getting back to awareness of being, the undeniable fact of the existence of being, something that for the mind not only feels boring but it feels like nothing, it even feels scary. It feels like nothing. So for the mind, mind can't grasp the nothing. It is designed to grasp objects, things. So you tell them cognising emptiness and it will create an image of that cognising emptiness. Ridiculous. It doesn't work this way. The cognising emptiness is the very fact of being, is the aliveness. It can't be cognised because it is the cognising entity. So it is what is doing the cognising and in the absence of any other words this is what I am.

Well, all I can say is that there is a real consciousness. There is a real consciousness. There is a real consciousness. There is a knowing of being. Everything else is a concept and it drops off when I go to sleep. So it's not permanent. It shows up, it comes and goes. So it can't be trusted. Nothing else I can say that I am because it doesn't stay. Body doesn't stay. It's constantly changing. I had a different body yesterday. Bob says, before you walked into this door, millions of cells have been replaced. The body is changing. The hair has grown maybe one of a hundred. A hundred of a millimeter, whatever.

It's different. The mind, they are just thoughts. There is no such a thing as mind. The stream of thoughts. Personality. Personality is updating itself because the database of the experiments, experiences, all that shit is updating. So personality is the model really through which we kind of express. It's changing. So feelings are changing. Everything else is changing. The only thing that stays is the fact of existence, is the awareness, is the... and it's not really awareness of content because awareness of content, the awareness is still the same, content is not. The knowing is the same. Knowing of being a knowing of whatever is just still knowing.

And really, knowing isn't separated from what is known because if there was nothing to know, there wouldn't be a knowing. So that's really one thing that is artificially divided into two. It's just like seeing isn't separated from what is seen or from who is doing the seeing. It's again that trick the mind offers to reassure its own separate existence. And that's cool because if not for that separate existence, well, that is what it is, so why question that? A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people don't know that. A lot of people, and I had this question also for many, many years, like this is really nasty.

If the awareness is loving to be, is also wonderful and is so loving and so good, why would it condemn this poor humans to a suffering of having a separate ego? Well, that's a question coming from a strong judgment. The space doesn't really have any judgment. It doesn't really think that the thrill of real deep sadness or suffering is anything bad. It's like a vacation from the eternity. That being timeless and spaceless and going for a ride in the time and space, that's, yes, that's what it is. Whether it's good or bad, we can have an opinion. But ultimately, from the depth of being, it is what is.

It's neutral. It's just what is. So that's, and it isn't. And it isn't at the same time because this is manifestation. This is illusion. It doesn't really exist. It's just an appearance. It's just a rainbow. But it's a beautiful rainbow and it can be appreciated and it can be loved. Yes, so, half an hour? Yes, so, yeah, so how are you doing with it? I mean, do you have any sort of, like, even in that one aspect of the knowing of being, of that awareness of existence, because I remember I used to meditate, it was part of the so-called path where I used to sit in the head and watch out from the head how well I'm doing by just being.

And controlling and checking my own being and my own thoughtlessness. That's what, and that's OK. That's, you know, like we don't really have any other way to start. This is where we, where the whole surge begins. It begins from internal passion. And I don't know if it's just the waters of the sea that makes me think, because I don't have an absolute possibility. Like, where I don't have an absolute possibility. Because I don't have, like I don't have, like, personal training that makes me think, like, I don't have any other way to start. But that's the truth which I feel your mind should also everything from the standpoint that we are so grounded and so well seated in from the head slowly it slowly it deepens up and it shows itself up in a more headless way in in a way in which it is not so intellectual it is not so rigid and dry it becomes the sweetness that comes from even a bliss coming from the silence when the mind doesn't stand in the way when it doesn't cover that beauty of of the appearance with the layer of judgment that moments we all know those moments we all know we all know moments of absolute beauty of standing on the top of the mountains of seeing something that we totally love like a beautiful cat or flower on night sky the sky with stars or everything the beauty when which is so breathtaking that it stops the mind there is no there is no idea that there is me watching and it should be different this quiet the head is quiet that's why actually I was mentioning it today also for some reason I was very attracted to the mind and I was attracted to the mind and I was very attracted to the mind and I was very attracted to the mind and I was very attracted to becoming a ship's navigator because it was as close I could as I could possibly get to the sense of non-existence when you are exposed to the vastness of the sky and the ocean and there is nothing that you can't honk honk onto it was my idea of nirvana there's no me is just that absence that space and it does leave you speechless and and breathless and this is the moment with no self so moment with no self so moment with no self so then something gets wrong like Nisargadatta says the then something gets wrong like Nisargadatta says the then something gets wrong like Nisargadatta says the the whole thing about freedom from the the whole thing about freedom from the the whole thing about freedom from the sense of contraction of the of the sense of contraction of the of the sense of contraction of the of the suffering inferior void that is feeling suffering inferior void that is feeling suffering inferior void that is feeling unworthy it comes as he described it is unworthy it comes as he described it is unworthy it comes as he described it is it as nothing's wrong anymore so we all it as nothing's wrong anymore so we all it as nothing's wrong anymore so we all had lots of moments in our life when had lots of moments in our life when nothing was wrong whether it was for a minute or it was for an hour or it was for a week of fabulous vacations where we wouldn't be anywhere else we wouldn't want anything else it was just ah just a flow just like in nature river doesn't go up the stream that nature doesn't fight with anything it just is so that moments of being in love is also that sort of a moment there is an appreciation and there is no judgment and there is no there is nothing wrong it's nothing wrong so it is a natural state and this state get obscured in only one way the conceptual what's wrong with right now if if we don't think about it zilts what is wrong with right now if we do think about it oh boy oh boy so it's a natural state and very often people think oh yeah but you know what i'm not there yet because i don't feel the ecstasy i don't feel the place i'm not like bob i'm not like muji or whatever i feel that i'm different i'm separate yeah now there is a screen of awareness and there is a knowing of the ideas that are being believed i'm not that yet this is all wrong it should be different that is just a game of beliefs if i pause the thought for a moment and ask myself what am i without the thought what am i if i think i'm the body that's the thought if i think i'm the thought what am i the mind stops my question was what is the eye what is it what is the ego what is the eye that's just ah it's you can't answer it because like your question was uh shown no what was the with the eye my eye my eye show me my eye what is yeah it just feels so wrong it can't be answered and it's right away seen for what it is it's just a riddle it's just a thought so there is no answer to the question who am i or what am i there is just a dissolution of a question so now i don't have a when i hear the question who am i like who cares i don't give a what am i and who cares i am what i am why would i want to write a story about what i am i can become an actor or actress and just say oh yeah okay i'm a woman or i'm polish or what who cares i don't like sometimes people ask me questions oh where are you from i can tell them a little story but that's not that's yeah that's just playing the game and it's and it's cool to play the game because that's this is the right we can enjoy the right we can play the stories we could cry with right and that we can't play with Some how we could imagine the effect it could have on us but you know you know it depends on what has wrote the book so here's my cat Heath is crying he's running away car pulled him over nothing came out of the car I know this is very difficult to say but just hear it you know as Har cas you know I was like okay please help me can you get this done to the craft and bring the dooms performed okay I'm reference something sleep you know just little step at a time right I mean it's the hard well there's no idea that i shouldn't be sad and therefore the the the emotion of sadness the emotion of heartbreak there is a sweetness to it because it's not mine and because i don't need to get rid of it and because i don't need to fix it it's there this is what life is experiencing right now just like in nature there are rainy days crying nature clouds whatever nobody says oh it shouldn't be there it's okay it's okay to feel absolutely everything and it's okay even to resist it if that's the pattern if that's the habit for now it just gets much much easier when that pattern and the resistance pattern is actually known because that fact of knowing of seeing it as the content on the screen or in the space of awareness takes a stink of it now i'm the knowing space and there is a pattern going on and there is a resistance going on there's something going on but it's not mine anymore i'm not this anymore now i'm space and i allow everything to come because i don't i don't care i don't have any preferences i don't care as space as life everything is beloved everything is included everything is allowed and of course the personal pattern will come up because that's also included here is a tooth egg i'll take the painkiller and i'll call the dentist it's not that because everything is allowed this is not taken care this is being fed this is being dressed even has mascara occasionally it's okay it's a pattern it doesn't matter it's moved to do whatever it's moved to do and yeah yeah yeah oh boy as soon as i saw it but i realized what it was that's why i freaked out uh-huh so i just thought it was interesting that when i thought about it i was like okay i'm going to do it first heard that this all happened in like a split second i didn't do anything but then when i could recognize and i guess i had a thought of yeah you know like danger or something but that's only when i when you when you had the full mental picture of what is really going on so i've just been thinking in the last few days we can really have an experience with well everything we see in the world is already interpreted by the mind this is this is the way raibugita is explaining it beautifully it's it it says that mind is another sense it's another you know like seeing hearing tasting touching smelling thinking they're all kind of and every sense is operated by the mind the way you are seeing you're using the mind to recognize things you're already relating them from the things of the past for your to your past experiences you wouldn't even find the door if you didn't really recognize them as a door you wouldn't recognize people that you know it is all already the mind is already operating it's like a it's like a software in the computer you have the camera in the computer but the software is actually downloading pictures interpreting it and commenting on uh yeah does that mean that is out there no well if if you see the beautiful simulations of what the bee is seeing or what other animals are seeing different totally totally different some are seeing in infrared some are seeing like a fly i think she's got like a thousand little cells and on the eye completely different picture like yes it's there is no objective reality out there there is no world apart from what the mind projects and interprets us as they're seeing our thoughts yes yeah the interpretation yeah totally and hearing also it's just it's so fast it's amazing like when you think about how do you experience your own body like how you experience uh your feet if you don't look at them like just that food that sits on the on the carpet how you experience it you feel some sort of a sensation of the touch and the mental picture of the foot and the carpet comes with it so quickly that you can't actually well you can kind of force it away and now would you be able to actually distinguish the foot from the carpet just one sensation.

Objectively it's one sensation because you know it is but with the mental picture with the interpretation it feels like there are two objects meeting and in the meeting point of those objects there is a sensation but you don't even know the shape of your foot without the mental picture. It's shocking how quickly this software is operating everything. It's beautiful too. It's amazing. It's such a machinery but there are people with Alzheimer's with the memory loss and they operate differently. People with Parkinson's like you know it actually affects the spatial awareness and they kind of see things a little bit smaller or wider or bigger. It is the computer.

It's absolutely brilliant but it's still a biocomputer. It can have faulty programs, it can get viruses, it can get reprogrammed. It's... There seems to me there's maybe a couple of types of thinking because a few weeks ago I was just waiting for a train and I had a lot of thinking going on about this topic and then all of a sudden spontaneously this thought came to me surrender to the... surrender to the nervous system. Yeah because there's few people... It doesn't go that far. No. Few people in Europe watching they actually like to hear what people say in the room and understandably so. So I'm just sitting at the train station and I'm having a lot of thinking about these kind of topics and then the thought just...

this thought just came to me to surrender to the natural intelligence in me. And then as soon as that happened pretty much not all thinking but most of it just went away. I'm just sitting there going wow. But I obviously to cognize that I'm still having some kind of thinking but... it's hardly not much at all and it's a really nice... and that lasted a couple of days and then back to the... you know... Yeah. ...chattering mind. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing to recognize is how that thought to surrender to the natural comes out of nowhere and just popped up. You didn't do it. If I do it now nothing's gonna happen.

Yes. Yeah. It's like everything is naturally happening and it's at its own pace. So now because you are attracted to that type of a message or whatever for some reason there's something appealing that you've shown up here. That type of thoughts start resonate. Start resonating and they start showing up. And probably the more attention goes into it the more often you will experience that type of... Yeah that's... It all kind of feels like a... like a play of waves, vibrations. Resonance. There's nobody doing anything. You can't think the thoughts. You can't force it. You can't speed it up. You can't own it. You can't take credit for it.

Well you can but it will be just another thought. What about ghosts? What about them? Well I mean... Are they? If you believe it. Oh yeah. Well I don't know about believing it but I mean like when one snaps me on the hand and you know there's a... there's a... a six foot bloke who's just woken me up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I had my cats seeing ghosts. They wouldn't sit on a particular chair because that was someone who died in the house and they would know. The cats would know. Yeah. Why not? It's all a dream. So ghosts can be part of it. Doesn't matter.

Whatever is... Yeah. I mean they must be spirit also. Sure. Yeah. It manifests in so many ways. It manifests as humans. As blocks. As thoughts. As clouds. Suns. Anything. It's totally... There's no limits to what appearance, what shape it can take. Yeah. Walking on the water, levitating, whatever. Yeah. Beautiful. It's... There is no rules to it. It's infinite creativity. Yeah. Cool. I mean gosh it's... It's how it looks at itself through your eyes. And my cats also. They could... They could see it. I couldn't see anyone on the chair. But the cats would bark at it like... Really? Yeah. Yeah. In a house that I was renting it was someone died there.

Yeah. Yeah. We were living with a ghost for a few months. And how often do you see ghosts? Oh not... Not that often. But... Time to time. From time to time. It's... It's wonderful. Okay. Everything is beloved. Does that mean that the cat is just seeing? Because I... I mean... I mean... I mean... I mean... I mean... I mean... I mean... You're saying it's a thought? No. No. I mean you can... You can... You can call everything thought. You can call the chair... This is a thought manifested by the mind and believed in to be solid. In this way yes you can say cat is also seeing a thought in a form of carpet or food or whatever.

Maybe like the ghost though. You said your cat's seeing ghosts. Yeah. Yeah. They're reacting. See, dogs can smell drugs. I can't. Mm. fear and they will bark at you. I can't. They may see and sense frequencies that we are not. Yeah, that's all it is. If we say they're reacting to a ghost, it's just our judgement of the cat. Yeah, it senses the frequency that is creating some sort of a response on the furon in a behaviour. And where does the ghost start and stop and where does the aura start and stop and where does Australia start and stop and where does my name start and stop?

It's just labelled at the end of the day and kind of firmed up, imaginarily. Yeah, it's just meaning making. Without the meaning making, there's experience of some sort where nothing can be said about it because no thought came in to actually be able to say anything about it. We need it but we just don't need to take it too seriously. We don't need it really, it just happens anyway. We can freak out about it or not freak out about it. That's going to happen anyway. What was that you said? To communicate though, you need it. That communication happens of some sort but even then trying to label communication, what is it?

What do you mean it happens? Blah blah blah blah, like I hear it, blah blah blah blah, oh okay, here it goes, blah blah blah. Don't plan it, I just notice sometimes it all just... No, I'm just saying that you probably need thinking to communicate. That could just be chatter that happens as well, we don't really know what's a cat, what's a horse, what's... Animals and insects can be... Yeah. And also if you think about it, if you notice the way thoughts... It's the natural intelligence. If you notice the thoughts, how they pop up, like the thought you had about surrendering, you didn't really think it, it just shown up.

Yeah. So that's all thoughts show up like this. We only think, oh yeah, I thought, I was thinking. This is only the language that gives us a credit for thinking. Thinking is completely impersonal, it just shows up. I have no idea what I'm going to say in five minutes, maybe nothing. Because it's not really my thinking. It's just thoughts. I never really think. You don't think either, they're just thoughts showing up. And some of them will be spoken and some won't. Yeah, but there is truth in that, you know, like as the human pattern, we did develop the symbolic language and we use it for communication.

So we can say we need it, or we can say it is what it is, that's what it is. Like yeah, we don't want to regress to... Or there are people who don't have, had brain damage or something and they can't use symbolic language. We find it is for, yeah, the way mind can be used is almost like a handicap. It's a dysfunction not to be able to use mental representation for objects to communicate without language. No animal in the nature has built a civilization or the social systems or stuff like this. That's the beauty and uniqueness of humans, is to be appreciated. Although yeah, it has, it has, it's...

It's dark side too. No animals have designed the atomic bombs or kill one another, rob one another and invent gold and yeah, it is what it is. A couple of things. Is it possible for you to intuit or for you to know without a thought? So you know you are, you know you exist, correct? Yeah. You know you are alive, there is a beingness here, there is an awareness there. Do you need to walk around all day, every day, saying to yourself, I am, I am, I am, I am, I am, to be I am? You don't. You don't. But you know you are. A thought doesn't have to come up to tell you that you are.

You know you are. Except when you are sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. It's another story. But then you don't ask yourself a question whether I am or not. Correct. It's no problem. There is absence. Yeah. Yeah. So what it sounded like, okay, and the other thing you said was surely when you thought to be able to communicate, is it, can you have a look at that and examine for yourself whether or not that statement that you are making, which is surely we have to think to be able to communicate. Is that true? Is it really true? What's an example of it not being true? Okay. While Kat was standing up there communicating to you, okay, do you think Kat was thinking what she was going to communicate to you?

Or do you think it just completely came out of her mouth completely spontaneously without a thought as such? There was just communication that... Yeah. ...that was happening. Yeah? I think what I... I have another funny example. What I meant though was for Kat to actually, she needed to use words to be understood. That's what I really meant. Yeah. I get you. I show you another example because it's really sweet and funny. I find it really beautiful. It is NLP example. It's not mine. But look now. God, how much did my words mean? Really? Zilts. That's the beauty of communication. It really doesn't need... ...that much of the words.

I could say the same things in my native language and you would probably understand this or you would understand this without even the words. But don't we need to... I understood your body language. Yes. But that's also a thought. Are you sure? Because I can see how Kat's communicate. And you know, when the Kat get all the fur standing up, they don't need thought. The instinct runs right away. The other Kat runs. I'm just talking about my own experience. Yes. Yes. So even though... When you went down like this, I recognized that. I didn't say... I didn't have a thought as such like, oh, you're sad or whatever.

But I recognize it from memory or whatever. Absolutely. Yes. That's what I mean. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're totally right. You're totally right. The way the brain is designed as the bio-computer, it totally builds the database. It relates to the past experience. It relates to the past experiences equally with animals, even in amoebas, I think. They don't even have brains, but they're still learning. This is the genius of nature. It's like Bob says, it is all suffused with the intelligence, innate intelligence. Like the baby doesn't need the thought to know how to suckle on the mother. Every particle is intelligent. Like sun doesn't know the trajectory around the galaxies and it still follows it.

Everything is that intelligence. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's gorgeous. And yeah, totally. It relates the way this pattern is designed. It builds the database. It remembers. It uses the memory. And the memory is using in much superior way to the animals which use just basic neuronal connections. We use words, mental representations. So our memory is vastly larger, different, and more sophisticated, more complex. Yeah. It's just the me defining it. Does it... Yeah. Yeah. The me defining it doesn't really need to happen, so these things could take place as communications and they could appear like little words up in your forehead here, like they do with me. But there's not really...

It's just something that popped up. It's not actually anything in particular. It just is a happening. So there doesn't really need to be a me, oh, that was a word, and it means that. It just happens as a communication, but it's not... Hmm. If I never called it a communication, it would just be a happening. It would never really have a boundary. It would never have a me making a boundary. It's just... It's just so wonderful that you're digging into it. It's great. Like, gosh, argue, disagree with everything because that's... But you're looking at everything. We're all looking. It's the sort of conversation we all look.

It's awesome. I absolutely question everything because... And you can. I can actually beat myself with my own words. I can say, oh, yeah, I just said this and this and the other. This and emptiness and space cognizing. And I can just prove it wrong equally easy because it's all bullshit. Words are all bullshit. They're all so inadequate comparing to the naturalness of the silence. Like, yeah, how can you taste the silence using words? You can't. It's just the pointers. They're pointing at the moon. Their finger pointing at the moon. But the fact that you actually... You're actually looking at it and you are willing to question and to see, oh, really, is that true?

This is the attitude that actually gets you out of the way. That's what Bob was... The predominant pattern of personality was to doubt. Doubt everything. Absolutely everything. There's nothing to be believed here. If there is one thing that you want to believe it, you're gone. You're going to waste your life. If there's... Like, it was really funny. I loved it. I got a question under one of the videos from a very intelligent person who was saying, yes, so if the whole non-duality is about shedding your beliefs, why should I now believe that there is no me? Very good question. Like, so how am I better off believing that there is no self?

Sure you're not. Sure you're not. Sure you're not. Sure you're not. Sure you're not. You're not believing that there is no me. So why everybody's saying this is about shedding off the beliefs? So what the heck? Now you're telling me to believe there is no me and I should not believe anything. Beautiful. Absolutely believe nothing. Question everything. If the fact of there is no me is a belief, throw it to the rubbish because it is about dropping a belief that you need to believe in no self. Yeah. And if you think, oh, now I have to believe there is no me, drop it. You don't have to believe in anything.

This is what is true when the belief is absent and it's not needed anymore. Let's just see what's there when you don't think about it. Yeah, when you don't believe it. And there's just really no arising of such a thing as self or no self. There's just nothing going on except this, because there's no thinking going on. You just notice that a thought has to come in to make anything of anything. Nothing is made of anything as long as the pausing is there. And it could be blah blah coming out. It could be all sorts of things coming up and out, but you're not making meaning of any of them as they come through.

You might see an oral memory of something that was said, a snippet, and you just hear it after. And then, yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah. I totally relate with what you're saying, inclusion of everything. Yeah. That there's no belief. I mean, you're using words to explain that there's no words needed. Yeah. So there's a paradox of that. Totally. There's a contradicting of that. And we sit here, talk about it, but we're all sitting here physically as well. Yeah. So it's totally the opening and inclusion of both. Yeah. The meaning making and the non-meaning making and the significance of it. And it's not so significant.

Beautiful. Everything is there. Yeah. And it's not just the words. It's the words. Yeah. And it's the words. Yeah. And it's the words. Yeah. And it's the words. Yeah. And it's the words. Yeah. And it's the words. Yeah. Everything is there. Everything is there. And at the end of the day, it's not so significant. Beautiful. Everything is there and not there. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Help lightly. Help lightly. Total paradox. Yes. And it's... Yes. All included. And then you keep... And then you pause. Yeah. Nothing's really there. Yeah. And at best, all we can really do is understand those just beautiful, by the way. That was just beautiful, what came out of you.

Yes. That was just beautiful, what came out of you. Yeah. And in knowing that, in actually knowing that, what came out of you, then there's the absolute realization that words are only pointers. They're not the actual thing. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I sit here sometimes and I hear stuff come out of my mouth, and I'm hearing it come out, and it's just spontaneously coming out. And then there's also another part of me going, that's not true. That's actually not true. Oh, okay, but this is what's coming out. So I just kind of let it land and let it do whatever it's going to do.

Who knows why life does it? Sometimes people hear it, and they interpret it in a way that shifts them. Yeah. You have to give you freedom, yeah, to play with words. Yes, totally. There's nothing here that stops it from finishing its spell. That's what it's like. And sometimes you hurt someone, and you say something that completely doesn't land. And they suffer stronger and more violently. And this is what they need. This is what life offers to them. And who am I to take credit or blame or whatever for it? I don't do anything. It's all life. I. I don't beat my heart. I don't do the growing of my hair.

I don't do any of it. So. There's an innate intelligence that is functioning that we pay no attention to. And I mean zip. Because we're so focused in on our own personal identity, our own me, that believes it has free will, that it's running the fucking show, it's calling the shots, it's doing all the thinking, it's doing the choosing. It's doing the acting, the reacting, and so on and so forth. We're so very busy with all that, like constantly so busy with all that, that we miss the magnificence. Yes. You know? And, you know, you don't need a thought to know that you're sitting in this room.

You just innately know. You don't even need to know that. Otherwise. Otherwise. Otherwise you'd be just constantly checking in with yourself. Like I said before, you know, are you aware of being? Yeah, I am. Okay. But you don't need to walk around all fucking day saying, I am, I am, I am, I am. Again, you don't need to be sitting in this room. So I'm sitting in this room. I'm sitting in this room. I'm sitting in, there's a light, there's a light, there's carpet, there's that, there's that, there's that, that. But, and without all that dialogue that I just described, you still know without any thought at all, that you're here in this room and that there are people around you and that there's a floor and a ceiling and, and lights and space and air.

So there's an innate or there's an intelligence. There is a knowing that is beyond or prior to thought knowledge. And it's what Kat said. It beats your heart. It grows your hair. It grows your fingernails. It sheds your skin. It digests your food. It makes you breathe in and out. Keeps your heart beating. You know, and we think we're running the show. Come on. Like really? We're running the fucking show. If I was running the show, my next primary concern would be that I took my next fucking breath. And I don't nothing. I don't think about it. So again, that's just an example of that.

Until it's about to go on the break. Is it about to go on the break? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an example of that intelligence energy. And when you start to see through or let go of the confined intelligence that we operate from, you start to see that intelligence operating every fucking way in a tree in a cat cat everywhere. You just see it. It just yeah. But it falls down when you go to sleep. Yeah. So if we doesn't fall down when. No, it doesn't. That intelligence energy is always there. It does not fall down when you go to sleep. There is no awareness on that.

There is awareness, actually. We don't know because we don't remember. But we don't remember when we get drunk also. Who cares? Yeah, and it's not the reality of this moment. What's your question? Do you think this intelligence that's running the show creates our thoughts? Absolutely. Because you don't. Yeah, everything. The one expresses us everything. I don't what? Create the thoughts. Because if you could, you'd change them. If you could, you'd change them. Why would you have a horrible thought? You'd change your whole opinion about yourself. So if we're sleeping and we have a dream, then that's coming from a thought. Yep. Yeah, you've got to think.

You've got to have as much control over the thought activity that happens to you whilst you're awake as you do when you're asleep and dreaming. And there's a dream character. There's you in that dream that's being buffeted, that's being knocked around by whatever is going on in the dream, and it fucking seems real. You can experience fear. You can experience all sorts of horrible stuff in a dream. And to the dream character, in the dream, it believes it is and what it's experiencing is real, and all the dream content that's going on in that dream is also real. Yeah. The dream character has survival instinct.

It doesn't want to die. It's afraid when it's a danger. And it's absolutely... The reason that analogy is used, because the truth is, it's exactly... There's no difference. Yeah. It's exactly the same in this so-called manifestation. We all believe we're awake, walking around, running the show and doing stuff. We are completely fucking asleep. Or completely buying into the dream. Completely. And in non-dreaming, non-dreamishly. Well, that's just happening. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, let's address it because... We don't get confused at that point. It is an important... Yeah, it is confusing. Yeah. Yeah. It's an important topic that what happens when there is no memory. And I like the way Bob is explaining it.

Like, you see, the awareness is there because if someone calls you loudly in a deep sleep, you'll wake up. If you hear your name, you will wake up. Or if something happens to your body, you wake up. So there is something that is aware. That is aware, yeah. That is something that is... You see, the instinct is still running. The memory is not working. It's like you switch off the application. It's like you switch off the application that is recording in the computer. It's not recording. But the computer is still running. The blood is still circulating in the body. It's just the memory that stops recording.

Well, if it's recording, we never access it, so we don't know. Yeah. It starts recording when there is a danger. Like, you will remember when someone wakes you up or calls you. But that could be the body, you see. Yeah, totally. Because the bio-computer contains the application that has the memory, the recording bit. So we can't say that there is no awareness, but we can say that we don't remember. Do you have night awareness? No. No. For me, it is... The way I experience the world, there is a gap. I go to sleep and I wake up six or seven hours later. Well, I do remember a couple of dreams, pretty vividly.

But apart from those, no, there is a gap. There is a gap in the memory. I feel like, ah, I remember. I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so rested. I had wonderful sleep. And the body is energized. It's much more energy in the morning than it was when I was getting exhausted going to bed. But there is complete gap. For six hours, blank. Memory off. And then another two hours, five different dreams. But I can't say that I'm absolutely certain that I didn't exist. Because who am I to actually evaluate the existence or non-existence? I can't say anything. I can only say I have no damn clue.

I don't know. The memory was off. I have no recollection. I don't remember. So you contradict this notion that we are presence awareness, because we were. You're kind of confusing a little bit. And thank God you're doing it, because it is an important topic. Consciousness and awareness. Yes. And also the memory. And awareness. The awareness of being is one thing, and the memory of certain parts of the body is another thing. So it really is the awareness and also what Melanie says. That's a good distinction that Bob sometimes uses, probably was using also. That awareness is something that you would say is completely devoid of objects and sense perceptions.

It's a basic screen. It's completely empty. It doesn't have. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. It's like a screen. But the thing with consciousness or practicing consciousness, is that at that time it simply had no sense perception. It was like Shiva. It doesn't have the awareness of the world. space becomes transformed by this mechanism, becomes the space of seeing, the time of thinking because the space is created by the sensory, by hearing, seeing and the time is created by the mind.

Suddenly the consciousness that was all there is, vast, completely, undescribable, pure life becomes filtered as the consciousness. Now it is aware of objects, it's projecting, manifesting and receiving the objects. And now if the consciousness, and it's using memory, it's using database, it's building up the whole model all the time, refreshing and refreshing with every blink of an eye. Now if you switch off the memory, when you get drunk or you get drugs and you kind of confuse your sense of time, then of course you can say, oh I was unaware because I was unconscious, I was in coma. But you can't say you were dead.

You can't say there was no being going on. There was no awareness or no consciousness of being. You weren't conscious of being. Using awareness more as a holding point, like a zero notion in a way. Yeah, awareness is screen, it's screen. Consciousness is the moving. Aware of the screen. Yes. I call it awareness of your unawareness. How could you say I slept well? Unawareness. Yeah. There wasn't awareness. There wasn't appearing in awareness. That's a good word, unawareness. For now unawareness is going to be unawareness for me. Nothing going down if nothing's going down. When you wake up in the morning, don't say I was unaware, do you?

Say I was aware now. I know I had a good sleep. There was an awareness of that. What was going on there? Nothing going on, no thoughts, nothing to translate it. Just a pure natural awareness. A good sleep. By how the body feels. All energetic and stuff, really I had a good sleep. What do you mean how the body feels? Well, I mean, it's... It's a sensible feeling of well-being, you've had a good sleep. Some kind of time went down, even though there's no real time. Some activity happened in the night. Yeah, and the evaluation is already labeling, it's already consciousness, it's already the mental process that compares to the database.

How would you know whether you were well or unwell? If you didn't compare it with whatever you know? Yes, Professor John Wren Lewis that I knew, who woke up after an attempted murder, but he used to say that what happens at night is John Wren Lewis dissolves and becomes flat being, is the way he would say. So he has awareness. And it notices the body's loss. And it's sleeping and all of that. And in the morning he said, I'm reassembled like a bud emerging from a tree. And I bounce through the day. The universe, John Wren Lewis-ing. Beautiful. Yes, only to dissolve at night. Very occasionally, how many times does your mind ever come up?

That was beautiful. I like that. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's a good description. See, you can only describe it. So the way, the beautiful creative way people describe it. Yeah, they're all good pointers. They all know true, they're all words, but they're all good pointers. I like it. It's good. Yeah. But it would just be so rare. Like, my name comes up for me probably once every few days. If that, you know. And this so-called identity database we manufacture sometimes from time to time in places like this, or psychology or wherever. You know, maybe one or two of those elements come up once a week, you know.

Look in the mirror, I might see a nose and a zit. I don't see anything else. You know, there's no other labeling happening right there and then. There's just one thing popping up at a time. There's no database, no identity. But then occasionally we might sit here and say, oh, yes, I make up an identity. And that's just another little invention in that moment. It's a lot more empty than that. I've got a lot of, I mean, I remember a lot of totally crazy schizophrenic dreams. Like, a couple of times I was dreaming I was a man. It was pretty amazing to actually figure out that my body is different and touch it and it gave me pleasure.

A couple of times. Once I was giving a birth, oh, twice, giving a birth to like eight kittens. Seriously, a couple of times when I remember in my late 20s. I remember in my late 20s I caught the picture in the mirror because I was sitting with my older sister, who I don't have older sister, whose husband died. My sister is not married. And I had a glimpse of my face in the mirror. And I was in my 60s with a black hair. Not often you can see the dream character in the mirror. But I did the lucid dreaming course and a couple of times it did happen.

Experiments like this did happen. It was pretty amazing. I remember I was posting on a few different forums about dreaming, but nobody could relate to it. It's amazing. We do construct the dream character. So as you say, you know, like Katarina has been deconstructed. And the sisters and the family and the husbands and everything has been deconstructed. And then out of this, the new, completely new story emerged. And the identification with the story was very much there. And the waking dreams, I've experienced quite a few of those. Oh, yummy, like when you fly, you know, you can do anything. You can just flip your fingers and change.

You can change the weather in a dream because it's a dream. Absolutely wonderful. And then there is a gap where nothing is remembered. Nothing is experienced. That's kind of an experiment on watching a crime scene and then what you remember later after you've done, you know, a mathematical thing or whatever. And the gaps are just almost complete. Like, you know, you just totally reconstruct. This is spontaneous reconstruction of some pieces of memory and a bunch of made up stuff just popping up, popping up. So the rest of this gap is gone. It's all gap, you know. I just, yeah. And if you just go with the gap and what's it like when there's just gap, i.e., thoughts pause, there's nothing being made of anything, what's that like, you know?

And the more often that, that's the point of the works for me. It comes up in a million different forms, but it's what's it like when there's nothing left because no meaning making is happening right now. There's no, I'd have to insert a position from where it's viewed. I'd have to insert a sense of self. I've never seen one of those. I don't even get it when people even talk about it. And there's, you know, a lot of the stuff, if it just stops before, that stuff gets inserted in, you know. What's that like? And that might come up as a point of. I first got that off Pete in a way.

He said, what, Peter, like, you know, wear the coat if I am that. And for me, that was what it was. I like what Richard said that, you know, that, that quote about constructing your personality, because this actually, if you really look at it this way, if you have the awareness of this is how the whole show works, you can now watch throughout the day. How closely you're constructing Richard or how this personality is constructed, the reactions, the behavior patterns, the responses. They all are constructed. The constructs coming from the, from the model. That the memory stores. And if you see it for what it is, just a construct, just an operational model, you're free.

We're probably a lot more Richard than you are right now. Yeah. Yeah. You're free. You just see conceptual image for what it is. Where are you looking from? You are the pure space like awareness, aware of the construct that has been used as the, you know, it's just, it's just the way to communicate. Like, you know, in the abstract. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in the absence of any other patterns, I have this personality because this is there. If it has been reprogrammed one way or the other. Well, it would be different, but because it wasn't, it just behaves the same way it did 10 years ago.

Oh, it doesn't. It doesn't. 10 years ago, I would never open my mouth on the meeting in the front of people. No, I was too shy. But yeah. But other patterns, like, you know, food preferences or whatever, whatever is appreciated or not. It just, in absence of other patterns, it just still constructs itself. Right. Right. constructs itself, it's still expressed through whatever's available here. Well, we're all very glad that it does. Thank you, and Tito! This is not about acquiring something, it's not about getting something. It's not about filling myself with some new understanding or some new experience that's called enlightenment, if you like. So as I'm going to now function better and feel better out there in the world.

It's said a million times, you are already that. And if you're already that, what are you going to get? So... Well, that's what you're getting. Yeah. Leso, leso. Touché, touché. You're getting leso. So the whole idea here... Hopefully it starts to get seen. Rather than acquiring, it's a... Stripping off. Stripping away. Who am I really? What am I? Is there a me? And the idea is to actually go in investigation of that. What is that? Do I have free will? Do I choose? Do I choose these thoughts that are going on in my... You know? And if I can be aware of all these feelings, and if I can be aware of thoughts and sensations and ideas...

And actions and reactions and the body and so on... If I can be aware of it, you've got to be separate from it. To be aware of it. You see that? Right. Yeah. So you've got to be separate from it to be aware of it. Now, if you're separate from it, and you can be aware of all the stuff... All the fucking stuff out there in here... All of that stuff... Eventually what will happen is the inquiry will just naturally turn around. And you'll start to inquire as to what the fuck is that that is aware? That we give no attention to. None. We give no attention to it.

Because we're so caught up in trying to grab things and gain knowledge and gain an understanding or gain enlightenment or whatever. And that's all based on a person, a supposed person, sitting there, thinking, you know, I'm a person sitting here not feeling whole. Not feeling complete. Feeling separate from others. Feeling isolated. Feeling alone. Having feelings of fear. Why? Because I'm separate. But you could hurt yourself and all that exists at that time is the pain. No sense of separation from the pain. You are the pain. Yeah. Or you could... All you could say is pain is. But there's a big difference between pain and suffering.

Huge difference between pain and suffering. Pain is an actual... It is a manifestation or it is an energy that gets experienced. And we go, ah, that fucking doesn't feel too pleasant. That's fucking painful. Yeah. When it switches from pain to suffering is when there's... When the so-called entity steps in and goes, I'm in fucking pain. Then me suffers. Then the me suffers and it'll stay suffering. So you've got two things going on. You've got the pain that's there and you've got an entity that's also suffering as a result of the pain. Yeah. There's your split straight away. That's the split that just happens straight away.

So this is about stripping back. It's not about getting. It's so not about getting. None of these... None of the teachings, whether it be this or fucking whatever, it's about letting go. It's about stripping back. You know, if there is only... If there is only one omnipotent God, if there is only one God, and all the fucking religions say that. Come on. All of them say that. If there's only one God, how can there be any room for me? If God is one. Yeah. What the fuck am... Who am I? What? There's God is one and there's me? Fucking the arrogance of that is incredible.

But it's not really an arrogance. It's just an illusion. We just don't know that that's how we're functioning and that's what's going on. So this is about going in search of, does that me actually exist? Is it a thing? Does it have existence? Where is it? Where is it located? What does it do? That's it. Polytheistic religions don't have that problem. Yeah. Yeah. Polytheism. Yeah. I also want to acknowledge what you just said, because this is really important aspect also that not only... Well, this is actually a different aspect. When Terry says that I'm not the pain, I'm the awareness of the pain. And now you say, Well, this is actually a different aspect.

When Terry says that I'm not the pain, I'm the awareness of the pain. And now you say, When the pain occurs, there is just pain and I am this pain. Yeah, you're both right. Because investigation is easy when you actually figure out what you are not. So I'm not the pain because I'm aware of the pain. I'm not the body because I'm aware of the body. This is temporary step. Because the moment you recognize that what you are not, they are just objects on the screen of awareness. You recognize the emptiness of it. Like because you left with nothing. Okay. I'm not this, not this, not this, not this.

What am I? I'm nothing. I'm nothing. Oh my God. I'm nothing. Can anything come from nothing? No. So everything else is also nothing. So I am everything. Now, without the mental process of the investigation, you're totally right. If there is no separation from the pain, you're the pain. There's nothing else. There is no one who knows about the pain. It's just the pain. It's just the pain. Yeah. Very, very important aspect because often people get tripped over like, Ah, shit. What am I? What am I not? It's only in the thinking. You know, when the thinking comes in, Oh yeah, I'm not this. Oh, I'm in.

Ah, it gets just too busy in the head. When you shut up. S&M is the way forward. What is it? S&M. Say the masochism. There's probably a lot of addiction in that. For some of the patterns, yeah, sure. Life is infinite. It just, it expresses us everything. Well, apparently S&M is in at the moment. Oh, is it? Yeah, I heard so. Yeah. Yeah. What did you try then? S&M is in at the moment. It is a fashion. I won't be revealing that. It's a fashion. It's a fashion. Yeah. But it's actually, this is what happens when, because the whole body-mind is wired for pain and pleasure, what we actually do, we seek more pain and avoid, seek more pleasure and avoid pain, and everything gets desensitized.

Like you want more sweet sweetness. You want more loud music. You want more violent sex. Everything gets like, I want more now because I'm wired for pleasure. This is not good enough now. Give me something stronger. And what happens- I find violent sex pleasurable, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Me neither. But yeah. Some people, they just don't have enough. They're not sensitive and it's not their fault. The sensitivity is covered. Like, you know- Just thought you'd clarify that. Bob was- Bob was telling me when he was quitting, he was smoking cigarettes. His taste buds were dead, were blunt. He was eating sunflowers and they didn't taste at all.

It took few weeks, you said? Few weeks. Before he could taste sweetness of them. This is what we do, hunting pleasure and really desensitizing ourselves because- It's just a craving. You can only notice the craving. You don't notice anything else. That's right. And then wanting more, more adventures, more experiences, more anything that gives, that takes me away from that unworthiness or that sense of void. Like, oh gosh, I just, this is sedation. You know, I go on the internet shopping, or I go on the addiction to drugs, to whatever, just to have a break from myself. Go for a vacation or adventure or affair, whatever, what gives me a break from that sense of void and insecurity and incompleteness.

And then you could find you've been doing stuff all the time. Like, I watched, I watched two hours of a movie. And the whole time I've been tense. I'm hoping something's going to happen for them, but I didn't notice it because I was enjoying some storyline. You know, it's like, there's so much going on when you're just, um, blinkedly fixating on, yeah. And now with that need for stronger stimuli all the time, stronger, give me more dramatic movie, more scary thrill, more fast cars or whatever that is just more. Try and switch into a nothingness of the, of the vacuum, empty, void space. And find the sweetness of that silence and stillness.

It is almost impossible because we just got addicted to so much salt and sugar on our, on our food that it tastes blunt, but sit with it. It will change. It will reveal itself. You convinced me. Where do I sign? Good one. Appreciate the moments where nothing was going down in your mouth. I would absolutely hate to convince anyone to become a believer of non-duality. My mother asked me once, why is the non-duality better than any other belief system? I say, well, if you take it to be a belief system, it is not, it's equally ridiculous and it just throw it to the rubbish. It is not, it is what is left when beliefs are absent.

For as long as they are absent. Yeah. And there is no such thing. I think the mind will try and make it a belief. Totally. Oh yeah. Because on the beginning of the past, there is no other way to actually, to even resonate with that because everything goes through the mind. And that's okay. But only briefly, and there's gaps on either side. We just remember the part where there were no gaps. And it's like, it's like if you have a film, it's not a film, there's a whole bunch of slides and gaps between them. Transport is a believer of that. Paint it on the platform, mind the gap.

Yeah. You had to get rid of that because it was very non-jewel at the time. Yeah, that's true. Yes. I've forgotten what I thought about it. Yeah. I like your perception. Mind is really a gap. It's not a mind, it's just a gap. Yeah. And the, in Britain, they've got a mental health organization and it's called Mind Out. Cool. Yeah. And of course it is not to undermine the mind. Mind is absolutely wonderful. What a computer. Like, would you throw it to the rubbish? It's brilliant. It's gorgeous. But if we get, if we get addicted to it and it just toss us around and torture us because we, as the space, are so believing in it and so relying on it, there's no way out.

All we can see is the projection of the mind and there is no gap. Ouch. It's really just activity. It is the activity, but see. It's just activity. The mind. The mind is designed to, as a tool of the expression for the self. And it has this little funny faulty software which calls, which is called separate self or the ego, which takes the ownership and filters everything through it. Cool. Because there wouldn't be an awakening if there wasn't, if there wasn't falling for a dream. And there is no awakening from the dream. There is no, well, as far as we can experience, we can't experience awakening from the dream.

We can experience awakening to the dream when we realise dream as a dream. Awakening from the dream, I don't know if it can be experienced and I can't tell you because when the body is dead, I won't have the apparatus to communicate, to speak. So we don't know. But awakening to the dream. I can't see you. Yeah. You can. You can't see me. I think that's you. Yeah. Yeah. It makes mindfulness a funny nightmare. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mind emptiness would be so much better. Mindlessness. When the mind is empty, you're feeling, you're full of all the sensations that are being felt. So, and sometimes some of them are just like, wow, that exists and they could have just been a void.

You know, there's just that, that wow, just a real experiencing something so much that it's incredible. There's no such thing as mind when you look at it. Mind is nothing but thinking. Ah. Quickly, quickly. But we put a label on my mind. Give it a shape and form and think there's such a thing there. Show me your mind if you think you've got one. It's like when you're saying about the pain, you know, there's probably a momentary, what you might call a thought form of momentary resistance pop up and might not even be noticed. And then a sense of, like the other day I really experienced that in between.

Normally either I'll take fear, like Bob's thing about the fear is really just a bunch of memories you apply to a sensation. You get some time, sensation comes up. Oh, it's a bit like that fear I once felt. Oh, I don't like that. And all this. You actually worded it even better. Yeah, I did the other day. I like it. And then I took the fear out of it. And then I've just got sensations, buzz, a bit of heat, a bit of, you know, a few other sensations. Fear's utterly gone. But the other day I got what I think most people talk about is the in between one where fear pops in, you know, gets started up, but it never really gets that label put on and the whole story not liking it.

Never really gets put on. Doesn't get extricated out either. So I'm getting this intense thing that's like a fear thing, but I don't really, it's not, it's not mine. I'm not really owning it. I'm not really suffering from it, but it is quite an intense fear like everything to do with fear's in there. And I suspect this, it keeps coming in. It's fear, it's fear, it's fear in tiny little moments of tiny ownership of fear itself. But it's not really Tony's. It's just an intense feeling that's kind of fun and buzzy. Mm. And it's not as. It's empty as just other sensations like the buzz, you know, a heat adrenaline or whatever.

So I think there's categories and I think people can often be talking about things that are still confused a bit with a bit of storying, you know, belailing and things that are quite empty of label, although they become other labels because then you put something hot. That's a label. Open that one up again. Once I tried what's cold, if it's not cold. Okay. It's kind of like a heavy lead thing that I've never couldn't even describe, you know, and, and just. Yeah. There's little layers of labels in there. But yeah, it's just, it's more fun of you down here than over there. How did you say applying past memories to the sensation that is going on?

That was good. Bob does that one better, but it's. Yes. Yeah. He's talking about relating to the past. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Applying past. Yes. You just, yeah, there was a bunch of things to do with fear that you didn't like and, and that. Yeah. Yeah. They go with those sensations. They trigger in. Yeah. Those memories and, and all the, all the things that you reacted to and didn't like about those get triggered back in and. Yeah. Um, and then it can get another bigger story, you know, like, oh shit, that's going to happen again. Oh, that's going to come up and that's going to make that worse.

So this is like all a little wee ownerships of labels. They're definitions and of the definitions aren't there. You're not thinking about it. You're relaxed. There's nothing wrong. Beautiful. And it doesn't mean that we can, or we should stop labeling, but really precisely understanding that understanding the whole process of labeling makes it obvious what is going on. Makes it very, very clear. And in this pattern that tends to be associated with it disappearing. Can't say one causes the other can't say it's just a package deal going on. Package deals different in different people. This one's more about observation from here. The head. Emotional stuff. No, very little about, but it seems to be resolving itself.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The basic investigation, okay. I labeled it as fear. I didn't do it. The label came up. Now, what it's what it really is if I take the label aside and I'll find just a bundle of sensations, vibration, pulsing, throbbing, whatever, some sort of a. Totally depersonalized. Just neutral. Yeah. Yeah. So the label will still come up and that's fine. But recognize the dream as a dream. Recognize the label as a label. Recognize thought as a thought. And then they are utilized. They are used. we can't stop like oh why would we and as an extrication process doesn't even come up that often because it's just a teaching tool that needs to happen a couple of times but then what does happen eventually is like the depersonalization just zaps out all the time it's like yeah nah it's just not me anymore it didn't matter it wasn't about me and it's like oh that's quite funny all that shit's happening in relation to that what usually is a fear and wow that's going down and not even bothered about the next step even though I'm going along to the job that I usually fear it's just like this funny reactions going on it's quite a good girl yeah and it doesn't even create the next level of fear next next journey of fear because yeah it wasn't it stopped being owned yeah and it just happened but so Tony is telling us it's over time thank you yeah a clock that doesn't exist yeah yeah the time that doesn't that time is a mental construct thank you