Sailor Bob - Non Duality in Melbourne

Okay, does the choir want to hear it? The choir never knows. Preaching to the choir. What's the band leader want to do? What about a question and answer session? If you like. You have questions or answers? The question, the questioner and the answer all come from the same source. Yeah, end of the meeting. End of meeting, let's go home. Wreck the place again. You can all give a little spell. Give us your version of it all. Who wants to start? I'll start because you always have said to me, Bob, from the first time I met you, this ARCA data said to you, the only way you can help anybody is to be honest.

I don't need the ARCA data. You've been thinking about it for a long time. So I've been thinking about it for a long time. And I had the impression from the first time that it was very simple. You're very honest. But I've been toilets. And I've been talking to the speakers. I've been talking to the audience. Back and forth. You know, I can't speak. I can't understand a thing. And I've had to have a hearing. I've been in the classroom. I've had the experience. I've been talking to a lot of people. But I think I'm going to have to listen. I think I'm going to get out of here.

But I think I've got to be honest. I'm not very sure yet. I think. OK. OK. got a problem and the problem are the same source as well so if you see that they cancel each other out doesn't mean that the problem it kind of it when we talk about awareness being self cognizing but it's also self resolving is the word I came up with self resolving is it is that whatever problem you think you go up will ultimately resolve itself one way or another it has to mm-hmm so so looking for help outside of yourself or from someone else yes well you can do that but when it comes to these psychological problems you think you've got it's just a matter of seeing that that that as I said the person who thinks he's got the problem but the problem is that if the problem the thinking about the problem and the problem itself are all the same thing so who can have a problem yeah that sort of just drops away automatically so in some ways when you say oh you know take yourself beyond the need of further help that's what that's what that's what it kind of like I saw that for that's what I thought it meant you know you sort of become your own reference to what you think oh there is nobody yeah there's nobody there too that needs to reconcile anything yeah it's all conceptual the idea that you've actually got a problem is totally totally conceptual wrong assumption and this and the idea that there's somebody who can reconcile the problem is also a concept yeah and of course if you thought think you need to look at something external to yourself to find the answer to the problem.

That would also be a concept because the person you would go and see would only be coming from his relative point of view. So can he really help you resolve it in the end? No, because if there is a you, the problem will always, no matter who you include, if there is a you, you're fucked. So it gets down to what I always tell people, relativity. Relativity. Everything is relative to that imaginary sense of a separate individual which doesn't exist. When that's seen... And what's relativity? Relativity is duality. Duality, yeah. Reality is duality where you think there's a separate individual with some sort of free will, some sort of autonomy, and it doesn't exist.

So it doesn't have to reconcile anything because it hasn't actually got it. It hasn't got any problems. The problems are actually conceptual. Yes, when you label... They don't actually exist. You label something and I'm on the beginning of the words. They're imaginary. You can't get to existence. They're like the blue colour in water, as Bob says. They're like the blue sky. They're like the blueness in the sky. As long as you think the sky is blue, it's blue. As long as you think you've got a problem, there'll be a problem. You see, the sky is just a combination of scientific whatever, phenomena creates a blue sky.

It's the same with your problem. A mental construction, like a scaffold. A mental scaffold's gone up. A mental scaffold. And what's in the middle? The fictitious me. Yeah, it's all built around the me. It's like the imaginary me and you build the scaffold around it. Yeah, and the problem assures it exists. And the more you think about it, it's like adding another layer to the scaffold. That's right. It's like going up. Yeah. How high do you want to build that scaffold? It can go on forever. And what's imagining? Yeah, what's imagining it? What is imagining yourself? Mental images. It's just, yeah, it's where you say imaging in.

Imaging, imagination, imaging in. Yeah. You're bringing in images. And the images are? Phenomena. Phenomena. And you're giving energy to them so you think they're real. And when you analyse them, you know they're not real. They drop away. End of. Nowhere to go then. Is everything going to cease? No, everything will keep going on as it is. The appearance will keep going on. Who next? Well, does the appearance? The appearance will just go on if there's no one there to see it. As an appearance, yes. When you wake up in the morning, yeah, it goes on. When you're in deep sleep, when thinking goes into that resting state.

Well, who can see it? Yeah. Yeah, well, that's right. And yet it is registered. One of the things I often do I think is very good is I found myself doing is you look at the five elements, right? The five elements. The earth in the universe. The earth in the body is of course the skeleton. The skeleton is the heart. It's like a mountain, like a rock. It's the last thing in the body that will break down over hundreds of years sometimes. Then you've got the water which is the blood in the lymph, right? That fills up the skin like a bag. Then of course you've got the fire which is the heat created by digestion.

And if that temperature in the body goes five degrees one way or the other, you're in serious trouble. I don't know what it is. But it's a little bit over. Not a big deal. It's normal. You go up to high, you're in a fever and potential death. Death, yeah. So the homeostasis of the body, the heat of the body is a fire element that gives you the light and the eyes and the color in the skin. Then you've got the air element which is the nervous system which sends messages around the body through the nerves of the brain. Then of course that all takes place within space.

And I often do that. I often think of myself and say, well, think of myself sitting here in the chair. I'm sitting here as a skeleton. There's just this bony crustacean sitting here. Then you add the water to it. You add the skin to it. You're kind of like you can construct and unconstruct yourself, right? And then you say, well, who is seeing all that? Who's able to construct and unconstruct itself? It's got to be something that's none of those things. It's got to be something apart from it that is the numenum that all that phenomenon appears within. That skeleton appears within the blood and the lymph and all that.

So it's a little exercise you can do as a little meditation is sitting at the airport or something. Imagine yourself sitting there or look at another person and imagine them sitting there as a skeleton. And then just add the skin, add the nervous system, add the water. Then say, you know, it's just a, what's that word we use? Like protoplasm. But what's animating it? That's the word. That's the thing we have to look at. What's animating it? What's giving it life? The body is just a bag of bones, isn't it? Yeah, it's a bag of bones. I was told by Simran that men always do that.

You know, they see people without clothes. Yeah, well. But it's like, you know, you've got the universe as it is. And for some people, oh, who made it? And that question never meant anything to me. It's just there. So it just never ever occurred that there has to be a who behind it. And it's the same for this sense of self people talk about. If you just look at all the things you mention, why do you need another step behind it? You've just got what you've got. That's where words are very limited, aren't they? You can point to what you are. Some people do, some don't.

Some need another step behind because the association with the shape and form is strong. And some don't. They see it right away, like you said. I mean, I didn't see the body. The body was right away. But yeah, that now, yeah. It seems like a pointless. But if there is a step away from it or any movement behind it or yonder, what's that? I just see no one to step away. It's just back in duality again. It's just what there is. If you don't think about it, if you're not thinking about it, well, there's no one or anything to step anywhere. It's just added in by some when they start thinking again.

All right, other stuff gets added in here when I start thinking again. It's not that one. I think it is really mostly connected with the idea, a popular spiritual idea, which is potentially helpful, the idea of witness. So, you know, very often if you have a teacher or guru or someone, they would guide you, depending on the rigidness of your identification, to actually become a witness. But then you start believing that you are the witness and you get stuck there seemingly. At least that develops the tendency of the mind to actually observe itself from selling. But it's a witnessing, it's a noun, a verb rather than a noun.

That's what Tony is pointing out. Pure subjectivity rather than any entity. There's no entity there. You know, some people who have this kind of temporary step to witnessing, they still didn't quite investigate what is witnessing. They didn't locate the witness. Because if they did, they would realize there is nobody there. There is no one. There is no witness. Yet, the witnessing is still going on. Subjectivity. Isn't there two witnesses? No. No, isn't there? There's not even one. No, but I mean, there's the, me as a person seeing my thoughts. No. No. No, but that's... No. Stop. No. The double action. No, hang on. I'm saying that's one...

But then he has also taught. No. No, but I'm saying that's not a guru. There is no me witnessing the thoughts. That's the mistake. That's where you get stuck. No, not your thoughts. Robin, that's where you're getting stuck. I tried to point this out to you last time we were together. All right. Okay? You making that statement would be the exact same, would be the same as saying the me is also conscious. It's aware. The me is aware. It has to be aware if you think it's the me that's watching the thoughts. Now, I'm not saying I think it's that. I'm saying you can think it's that.

Look, I'm saying that's where you get filled. Okay. Who's the thinker? Yeah. That's all in it. That's what I mean. That's the... Mm. That's not what I heard you say. Oh. That's not what I heard you say. I might have misunderstood what you said. Oh, I think, I think... That's not what I heard you say. No, what I was going to say is there's just being aware. Like, I'm seeing now, right? And seeing now, right? And seeing is, there is an active thing in it. Just always put an ing on the end of everything and you're safe. But there's no one who knows that it's happening.

Is that? Yeah, it does. I still think. Think about what I said. Well, I probably am. But I think there's just a misunderstanding there for you. And that's it. Last time we spoke, I talked about when we first get introduced to this, we become aware, because we've been introduced to this, that thoughts happen. They come and they go. And prior to getting exposed to this, if you like, some people that don't even have to get exposed to this can see that. Like people that sit in meditation can see that thoughts just come and go. Acknowledge that. But the first introduction to being here is to look for the thinker.

Who is actually doing the thinking? And of course, when we're first introduced to this, we say, me. Of course. Who the fuck else is going to be doing the thinking? I'm here and there's no one else here. Obviously, it's got to be me that does the thinking. Okay. And that's what Bob keeps trying to explain. Yeah, he's not going to be exposed all the time or keep getting it. No. I get that. Good. Now, the next step from that, which in my experience I found extraordinarily difficult, which was what I didn't realize was it was my me taking ownership or believing that it was separate from, okay?

So, I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. believing it was the me that was now witnessing the thoughts. Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying is the majorly witness. Yeah, I'm just talking about my experience. Yeah, all right. Now, that was kind of... I thought at the introduction to this that all I really needed to see was that thoughts would just manifest of themselves, they would stay for a while like a cloud in the sky, and then they'd disappear. And if I saw that, and also in those thoughts that would just manifest were thoughts like, you're useless, Terry, you're never going to amount to anything, what the fuck is wrong with you?

And then that would disappear. And then the other, all sorts of... And most of them for myself were really fucking negative. Really, really negative. All the thought patterns that used to float through my head were quite harmful. Okay? And I thought all I had to do was to see that and see what these thoughts were doing and saying to me, if I got enough distance up from those thought patterns that were arising, somehow that just in doing that, I wouldn't be affected by them as much. I wouldn't be living in them. Yeah. And... And feeling them and so on and so forth. Yeah. And I kind of thought that was the end of it.

I really did. And I see a lot of people, a lot of people think, got this. Fucking got it. I'm awake. I've got it. Because I experienced that. I thought, got this. Got it. I was so fucking far off the mark. Yeah. It was... You know. And then what I didn't realize, and it was, you know, when you do realize it, it's so fucking obvious, but for some reason we can't see it, you know. And there'll be statements like, yeah, I can see the thoughts, you know, which is just a thought, right? A verbal... A thought that is verbally expressed. Yeah. Yeah, I can see the thoughts.

I can see that's there and, you know, this is... I thought I had it. I thought I kind of... I thought I'd arrived. But I kind of still feel a bit sticky and I kind of still feel like I'm stuck in this body. And from what I'd read and from what I'd heard Bob share, I started to doubt whether I'd actually arrived. Really started to doubt it. And it took quite a while for me to be able to acknowledge and see that any internal, any internal dialogue that was going on in here in relation to that initial screen of thoughts that were floating through my mind was the real me.

That was the guts of it. And it was really, really close. Yeah, could you say that again? Yeah, say it again, that last part. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, I'll try. Okay. Any internal dialogue that was going on for me, in relation to being aware of thoughts that would just pop into my mind, that would just manifest, whatever they were. I might have a thought about you. I might have a thought about Kat, Bob, or am I... To be perfectly honest, most of my thoughts were about me, really. And they were really quite negative. Yeah? Low self-esteem, low self-worth, you know, traumatic childhood, traumas that had happened in my life, you know.

So the internal dialogue for me was pretty fucking rude. Now, what I didn't realise was that there was also, which was closer, closer than that screen of thoughts that I was aware of that used to float through my head. There was another dialogue that was going on inside me, which I couldn't see, or I wasn't aware of, is, it's being in that initial screen of thoughts that would float through. Yeah, OK. OK? I just couldn't see it in there. I could see all the other stuff, you know, but there was a me that was being either affected by all the stuff that was floating through my head, or there was a me there now saying, ah, I've got some distance up between that now, and I can see that's not me.

How could it be me if I can see it? What I didn't realise is that the person I was talking to the person that was saying, I've got a bit of distance up now, I can see that, and if I can see that, how could that be me? Yeah. That dialogue was me. Yeah. Yeah. And it's much closer, much closer. It's quite deceptive. In my experience. But isn't that the witnessing, though? Isn't that the witnessing? It's not a witness, and it's not the witness. It's the witnessing creating the two ends of the stick. What it was, was an illusory self. Yeah, well. That's what it was.

Yeah. At the core of it, there was still an illusion here that I'm here. And it took, I don't know, it took ages for me to start to acknowledge that, and actually see that. Then there was a kind of a stepping back. I don't know how else to put it. There was a stepping back from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that, from that. And you know, it was definitely a very, it was a really, really close internal dialogue that used to go on, in relation to the screen of thoughts, and the content out there, and everything, and everyone.

So it was seeing that, that I found, I found quite difficult. But in seeing that, as soon as I saw that, like, is no me, that there is no such thing as freedom, free will, that's what I'm trying to say. There's no choice maker. That really close, tight me that was seeing things and starting to parrot stuff that I've heard and read about and, you know, that was all that first screen of thoughts that you kind of become, you do become aware of it, you can kind of see stuff floating through and even that voice that would go on in that screen, you're worth nothing, what's wrong with you, blah, blah, blah, yeah?

I could see that that wasn't me. I could see that. and that I was kind of being spoken to. I was being, you know, those thoughts were being critical of me. But I thought, initially, the me was just those thoughts, the thoughts that would flow through. And then I realised that there was another really subtle me that kind of existed much, much closer. I don't know about anyone. All I can do is talk about my experience. It might be different for others. I've no idea. But there was a me that was much, much subtler and much closer, much, much closer, that I kind of took me ages to become aware of.

It's amazing. It just took me ages to become aware of that. But in becoming aware of that, that's when the experience was letting go. I just... I just started to... Oh, oh. I just started to let go. Let go. I was there for a while because it was still trying to work out what the fuck happened. What path was I just down? You know, like kind of went down a rabbit hole a bit, you know. And now what do I do? Like, now what do I... And I'm hearing myself say, now what do I do? And it was that. And that was just... It was just a thought too.

It really was. I thought, it's closer. In my experience, that really close internal dialogue that was going on for me that had an opinion on what it started to see and what it started to witness out there, that internal dialogue didn't... for me, didn't show up in thoughts that I became aware of. I know that's going to sound crazy, but... Mm-hmm. I don't know. I don't know where else to put it. But in really seeing that, yes, there was a little bit of a hangover. Okay, now what? Like, what do I... You know, what... And I would hear that. You know, well, hang on a minute.

There I am. There's that sense of meanness there. Oh, there I am. Okay. And then just... Then I found that that subtle sense of me got to a point where... Where... Where... Where... It gave up. It just gave up the searching, gave up the wanting, just gave the fuck. And it didn't do that of itself. It didn't make a decision, oh, I'm just going to give up. It just happened. Yeah. It just kind of... I just noticed that there was a surrender of that personalised me, an absolute surrender of it. And it just quietened down, quietened. down and the only way I know how to describe that was like there was a surrender or a giving up I don't care if I get this I don't care if I don't get this like it was neutral there was no wanting or you know it was just fucking neutral just all quietened down and in the quietening down of that all the seeking stopped the searching stopped the wanting stopped the desires stopped everything just it just stopped and then as I've said before I just found myself sitting on my veranda outside at home staring at the sky and it was really really still for the first time in my life I experienced stillness stillness absolute quiet everything was quiet like profoundly so but at the same time everything is kind of loud because I'm hearing dogs barking a million miles away I'm hearing things it's like all my senses opened up everything opened up just it all opened up you know I was quite stung with that like initially I was really quite taken by it and there was nothing else do other than said, I just sat.

If a little thought would come up, reside there. And I didn't create it. Flo reside there. And I just sat. I sat like that for over two weeks. Just sat all day. If there was anything going on, the universe managed to work that out for me. I was fucking brave. I just sat. Sat and just focused on one spot in the sky rather than on an object. Looking at the sky, but there's no point or center to it. Just kind of stared at the sky and I just sat and sat and sat. And just, you can't get any closer to awareness or beingness than just sitting and being.

You can't get any closer to beingness and beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being.

You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and being. You can't get any closer to beingness than just sitting and get to that awareness by trying to think my fucking way there. What am I doing wrong? Why can't I see this? What am I missing? What can't I see? It was all that internal dialogue that was clouding it from even being, you know, being able to experience that, if you like.

So it just dropped away. And it all just happened. It really did. It all just happened. And the exhaustion of the me, that just happened. It just unfolds. It just exposes itself. See, I just sat, and I sat, and I sat. Me is really exhausting, isn't it? Pardon? Me is very exhausting. Me is terribly exhausting. It's so exhausting. It really is. It's the worst child I've had. Yeah. So there's that letting go, sitting, sitting still, and one day I was... I was sitting there, and to take this on, anyone to expect that they need to have this experience. Because if you expect that, you'll go looking for it.

But I'll share what happened to me. I was sitting there, and going just looking, and I just witnessed everything open up. I don't know how else to explain it. Like, honestly, I don't know how else to explain it, but there was just an opening up. I don't know how else to explain it, but there was an absolute opening. And it kind of took my breath for a moment, and just stayed there with that. Whatever was happening, I just stayed with it. I was just prepared to sit with that beingness, sit. The beauty was that I was able to do that, because all the internal dialogue's built.

It surrendered. It just stopped. So then there was the space, if you like, and just sit. Sit. Be that awareness. Be that beingness. Experience it. Notice it. And to see at the same time. At the same time. It was... I don't know. I still don't know how to... Maybe as time goes by, I'll get better at it. But it was just an absolute void. Absolute. An absolute emptiness. Intuitively. At the exact same time, I knew and I realized that all of that out there that could be perceived as such was a result of that emptiness. It's one and the same thing. One and the same thing.

Well done. I don't know how to give that justice. Excellent. Beautiful. Well, Buddha said, Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. Doesn't get much simpler than that, does it? It's not a new concept if he said it seemingly two and a half thousand years ago, but it's now. That two and a half thousand years ago is actually now. It's not. It comes about as we've taken on that belief of a personal self. But you know when you investigate, you're not the material. My body. My mind. You know you're not the body when you investigate. You know you're not the mind. But what about my self?

Can you say it's a personal self? Or is it that one self? Before it's translated, say, Why have I got the idea of my self relating to the personal self? But there never ever was a personal self. It's a one self that pattern, shapes and forms. And experiences everything. And what are you left with? If you see that that personal self has no substance or any independence. Investigate the same ways to see the body and the mind. You know? You can't see the body and the mind. You can't see the mind. Well you must be left with the true self. Which is the self-awareness. The self-knowing.

The self-shining. And all these things will pray or express in that. It would be fair to say Bob that's the real meaning of a spiritual search. A spiritual search doesn't mean standing on your head or chanting mantras or reading scripture. It means searching for that thing you think is there. And finding out it's not real. Hmm. That's what a real spiritual search is to me. And when you say it's not real, you say the search is of it. Well yeah, the search itself becomes the problem. And this is what happens with organised religion and yoga and these things. The search itself then starts to become the problem.

And that can go on for decades in some cases, because all the energy is put into the search. And it's not about that, because I don't know how to, and I don't know how to express it. Give it a go. The insight was that it's not even spiritual. It's just a spiritual word. It's a word. It's not spiritual. And there were a lot of glimpses. And then suddenly one day, there was nothing. And it was just a thought that realised that there was nothing but everything. And then for a week I just wanted to be by myself, to just be in that space. And all the paradoxes that everything has now changed, and yet everything is the same.

This is the easiest thing, yet it's the hardest. Even coming here really, it comes when it wants to come. I don't even know how to express that. It comes when it comes. And that's it. And then I laughed at all the emails I get from all these non-dual teachers with all these stupid reports. And I guess I've got to make a living. Everyone's got to make a living. But really, what are you teaching? That's where it gets sold out though. But they've got to make a living. But I don't want to judge them. But when you're going to make a living, you've got to come up with new stuff or techniques or techniques to sell.

And yet it just happens. It just happens. It's uncontrolled. And like what you said, there's nothing but everything. It comes when it's least expected. Exactly. I was walking the dog. Yes. And listening to my schizophrenic neighbour who was walking her dog. And then suddenly, yeah, I thought that was funny. Well, it doesn't have to be any special conditions or any special time or space. I like going to shopping centres because I was down at Southland before. And I find when I go to these very spacious, spacious areas, I was walking through Target. And all of a sudden, I had no concept of having a body.

And I thought, well, what's walking here? It's like a point of reference is walking through the space. Like, I don't know what you'd call it. It's like this. It's walking around looking at all the emptiness. It's like you become the emptiness. Right? You're not a separate body walking in the emptiness. You're the emptiness. And the body, which is just an appearance, doesn't need to really appear. It has to appear when you're driving a car or something, right? You have to sort of take solid form when you're driving a car. But if you have a close look when you're walking around and try to look out the corners of your eyes or imagine trying to look behind you, there's nothing there.

It's like, as Bob says, it's like the mirror. There's nothing behind it. There's nothing there. It's just emptiness. And you're the emptiness. You're not the... And you don't have to become that. You said you'd become that. You don't have to become that. Oh, yes, yes. You were the emptiness all along. You're the emptiness all along. Yeah. That's your natural state. And you're bored into a false paradigm of a separate body, living a seeming separate existence with seeming free will and autonomy. That's the false state. That all comes about from the learning of the language, learning of the words. Yes. There's one thing I wondered, like when there was nothing and then...

Well, there's a telling in the... In... In Sing Ming it says, when no discriminating thoughts arise, the whole mind ceases to be. It comes out fresh and new or something. Go back to what we said a minute ago, Bob, and I think that's the problem in a nutshell. The idea that you can become something, whatever you want to be, and the thought that you have is that you're becoming. Because becoming is always an implication that's in the future that doesn't exist. There's only now, there's only ever now, and there's only ever the present. So any idea of becoming... Becoming, it's recognising. In that moment, I just wonder if that's all.

Yeah, but any idea of becoming implies a future time, which doesn't exist. Yeah. So that's another trap, which again, which you can be sold into as well. Well, if you keep coming along and you keep trying, that can go on forever when you think about it because it's always like the carrot and the donkey. Sort of, you know, keep coming. Keep putting your money on the plate. We're talking about how it's working in you, so it's your turn. Me? Yeah. Oh! Me? Yeah. Me! Let's hear from your mate. Well, I'm still a me, so... I am, I'm still a me at the moment, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are you sure? You've got to get rid of that. I think I am. Well, we might have to beat it out of you. Maybe it's just a thought. No, it's just really hard because I've always entangled my identity with my artistic work and it's so hard to disentangle from that in the sense of, like, I want to make a film and I have to become a good filmmaker in order to make that film. So I'm always looking at becoming something, you know. But does the camera... Yeah. ...have any concept that it's... of what it's... Is it separate from what it's filming? No. Ah. No. No, and that's what I find...

But it's the same with your eyes. No, but that's what I find, that when I'm actually filming with a camera in my hand, I have to be because I'm capturing... You have to think about it, though. No. There's observational stuff that I do and I just film what unfolds in front of my camera. There you are. And I have real confidence that it's all downloaded from the universe. So when I'm actually there, it's not a problem. You're not there. No, and I'm actually well known for that ability of unscreening, just unmanipulating, just capturing real life in front of me as it unfolds. And people act like actors on a stage and they come in, they fall in from the sky.

You know, by cue. I don't ask them to do anything. They just... The universe has given them a script and even though it's documentary, they come and play their parts. It's incredible. And I've watched that process. Well, don't claim it as a personal thing. No, no, no, I don't. I actually say, you know, this is beyond me. I always say that. You're almost a channel for the universe to express. But I can't say that to the funding bodies when I'm pitching the film. You don't have to. I've got to say, you know, I've got to use me as my identity to, you know... It's not a problem.

You can use it, but know the truth about it. Yeah, you're using your sweater and your trousers and you don't say... I'm my clothes. You still use it. You don't go naked there. You use the body, you use the mind, you use the identity, you use the name, you use the language, you use the clothes, you use the food. They're all just... Yeah. But what I have found since coming here, starting to come here a few weeks ago, is that I'm kinder with myself. So it's a very compassionate space, this. And I take it away with me for the week. And so when I find those negative thoughts coming through, trying to come in or, you know, I'm not going to get the funding and, you know, oh, I'm such a loser and why they're choosing that person and blah, blah, why don't they like my film or whatever it is that's coming through my head, I'm becoming more aware of it and mitigating against it almost, saying, no, no, this is really negative talk, this is a thought, just get rid of that, you know.

And actually, my happy epiphysis self, it doesn't really even need to fight with those thoughts. It kind of just is winning hands down. And so, you know, I'm actually just naturally choosing to be in moments that are really joyful. And like, you know, I go to a friend's place after work and dance for an hour. I didn't do that before. So I'm in the moment, you know, and really just enjoying being, basically. But it's slowly getting there, slowly. I think. If we look at that camera. Right. If that camera was a human being, that camera is filming that every word that's been said in here.

Now, that camera has no opinion. It's just capturing everything as it is, as it said, and it has no opinion about it at all. It's just seeing and capturing things that is like our eyes do. Yeah, they're the same. What happens to us is we have that me with all its conditioning that comes in. It says, I like that. I don't like that. That. It's a fine guy. It's a fine guy. It's a fine guy, he's like a bald guy. There's an idiot. He's talking rubbish. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. That's the only difference. If we get rid of that me, we then become like the camera.

We see everything exactly as it is. Just see it as it is. As Bob says, when Bob says it, it says it in Hunsing Ming, hold no opinion for or against anything. Yeah, I can never remember that phrase. Hold no opinion. Four against anything. And. You're just like. The. Unmodified, unaltered, uncorrected. Unaltered, uncorrected and unmodified. No preference, no partiality. It's only the mind that's going to modify everything, isn't it? It's only the mind, it's only the separate me that's going to modify it and say, well, that's good, but I've got a better idea. And if you're in entertainment, my God, you must cop that a lot.

I mean, her film's great, but my film's better. When you said it was when you walked to that supermarket and you felt this emptiness behind you. No, no, no, no, you are the emptiness. Right. See, we go through the world in, say, a normal state, as thinking we're in the body, the body's separate from everything else in the world, and that body has autonomy to do what it wants, and it's got free will and it can make choices. It's like a 180-degree flip, where you're in the world, where you then see that you are the actual emptiness, and the body appears in the emptiness like everyone else's body appears in the emptiness.

There's no separation between you or anything else. And the only thing that makes you feel separate is that imaginary idea that you're a separate individual, right? And so you're the emptiness, and so when you see that, you realise, as Terry said, you're everything. Everything belongs to you. Everything is inside of you. The whole universe appears in you. You have to be there first for the universe to appear. Right? How could it appear if you weren't there first? And what, and then when you say, when you were there first, it's not a you. It's a pure subjectivity. Like when I say you're a verb, not a noun.

See, a noun is a person, place, animal, or thing. And as Bob says, you're no thing. Right? And a verb, it just means doing. Doing, a doing, a doing. So there's a doing, a being going on. There's just no doer of the deed. It says that, that goes back to the, what is it? The Diamond Sutra or the Lotus Sutra of the Buddha. He says deeds are done, actions happen, there's just no doer of the deed. So that goes back thousands of years as well. And see, it is probably good if you would recognise that already in your daily living. Like the moment when you say, when you are doing the movie, and you are in the flow, and it just downloads through you, then you don't hold any concept of yourself at that moment.

You don't take any credit for the movie, you know, it's almost kind of a grace. You don't have judgement around yourself and the action. So this is precisely what we are talking about. This is the natural state. This is like a child is playing, and then is bored with the toy, goes to another, but doesn't make any story about it. So this state you are experiencing, and the natural joy is there. And if you recognise that it's already happening for a lot of time in your life, it's only that thoughts that come later, oh, I have done a job, or I have done a good job, or bad job, or whatever.

This is when it's like post facto, it's like hindsight. You recreate the self that you relate the previous action. There was no self when the download, when spontaneous flow was going on. There was absolutely no self, no ego, no judgement, no self-concept, nothing. Just how life operates the body. The body is necessary, the mind and the skills necessary, of course. And they are being used for the project. So now, Moira, you mentioned the rewiring of the brain. So yes, there have been a lot of research in the neurobiology and so on. And apparently the self is the neuronal network, responsible for creating the separate sense of self located in the world.

Do you want to pat on the back? And it's ten thousands of... It wasn't. It's a nugget. Your thought that I'm doing something happens ten seconds after the action has taken place. So there's no free will. That's a scientific fact. They say it's one ten thousandth of a second. That's how close they are. See, Bob uses the metaphor of the piece of iron in the fire. It gets hot, then the iron thinks it's the fire. So your thinking is working one ten thousandth of a second behind what's going on. And it's claiming ownership of it. And different research says that it's much slower. Much, much slower.

Like one of the seventh or half a second. Yeah, whatever. But the baby... But basically the network responsible for creating the self out in the brain is situated apart from the networks responsible for planning or from analyzing or from any other things. And this network can actually be disconnected by whatever ten thousand plus hours of TM medical... Yes, that's correct. Yes. The parietal area of the brain. Also, it can be used by whatever... Electrodes, drugs... Yes, drugs, club drugs. Certain drugs can switch off. They can shut it off. Absolutely. They've done experiments with a helmet where they shut off that parietal area of the brain to create like the mystic experience of no time or space.

Yeah. And it was interesting. They tried it on Richard Dawkins, the guy who wrote The God Delusion. And they couldn't induce it in him because that conceptualizing part of his brain had become so developed and so strong, they couldn't shut it off. Wow. That's interesting. They wrote a documentary about it and they could not shut off that part of his brain. Whereas they take some guy off the street who hasn't got a strongly developed intellect and they can shut it off almost immediately and he has that experience of timelessness, formlessness, spacelessness. And the way they proved there was no free will is they would get them filling out a multiple source questionnaire and they would go, Oh, A, B...

And that part of their brain that was saying B, the brain would light up a fraction of a second after they ticked the box. So what's happening is you're ticking the box automatically or the universe is ticking the box automatically. Your brain is coming in a fraction of a second later and claiming ownership of that D. Saying, yeah, I ticked A, I ticked B. And it's so close. It's like Bob says, the iron in the fire takes on that heat of the fire, thinks it's the fire. And that's what we do. We take on the idea that we've got autonomy and free will because it's working so...

Our labelling of what's going on is so close to what's going on. If there was a bigger gap between it, we wouldn't. Say we did something, then a minute later we then said, Oh, I did that. You'd know straight away. You'd say, well, that's coming. But it's so close together, as she says, the neural network is... Well, you used to... Like lightning. It's the way you've always thought. And it obviously develops as well. As she's saying, it develops. Because they were saying, when I watched this documentary about it, they got in Richard Dawkins, who's famous as a god basher. He wrote that book, The God Delusion.

And they said, let's see if we can shut down that part of his brain, that rational part of his brain that creates the idea of a separate self. They couldn't shut it off. He kept overriding it. Right? And I thought to myself, isn't that amazing? Because he's obviously put so much energy into developing that rational scientific side of his brain, right? It's a complete antithesis of, say, the mystic, whose rational side of the blank brain completely shuts off. He's completely open, like Terry's saying. Completely open. Like the open space. Yes. And then the rational part of the brain is kind of like squeezing everything down into this little brain, you know, where it seems to be a separate individual.

And they could not induce that feeling of wholeness in Richard Dawkins. And I thought, wow, isn't that amazing? Increase the dosage of DMT and it will work. No, it was actually a helmet actually that probed certain parts of the brain to electronically shut them off. Yeah, yeah. And then the brain can't do it chemically. But you can do it experimentally. Mushies, magic mushies. Well, you just, if the mind's going through its loop just thinking on its own and you do a task, you know, I want to write a shopping list, it shuts up while you do the shopping list. And that's an automatic function. But look, you see it...

And that's changed, those who can see it in MRI, the two networks shut down. One shuts the other one down. Where do you see it clearer, so, what she's saying, what she's saying? Where do you see it clearest? You see a tennis player, for example. A tennis player comes out and says, he goes out on the court and he wipes the other guy off the court, plays shots coming out of his ass and after the match he says, oh, you know, I was in the zone. It's like I wasn't there. I was just seeing the ball the size of a tennis, a basketball and I was just flogging it.

I wasn't thinking about what I was doing, I wasn't thinking about winning or losing, I was just in the moment, in the present and he plays like, he plays like he's never played before. Why? Because he got himself out of the way. That neurotic, oh Jesus, that nervous neurotic person who would have been worried about winning or losing is not there anymore. I remember, you know, years ago, this used to happen to me when I used to go out and do photo jobs and, I hate that camera. You want a dog? No, it's alright. It was interesting when I did jobs and I didn't understand it and it was actually frightening because I was, I would come back with these photos because I wasn't there, it was just happening and it was a weird, hmm, now I understand and it's okay, but it was, yeah.

But isn't it just the body knows how to do it itself? Yeah, get yourself out of the way. And I don't do get your mind out of the way. It just doesn't. You function better. That's what I'm trying to say. You function at a higher level of intelligence when you're not there. Yeah. But you want to have a look at it, none of those organs are really good at that and that's why Fessens is not going through that body. Yeah. It's a life of Fessens isn't it? Yeah, you're not digesting, you're not saying to your stomach now, listen, that burger you had an hour ago, you keep digesting there, keep digesting, keep, you just don't do it, do you?

Well, you don't have to think about driving the car or walking down the street or anything, it just happens automatically. Yeah. But the problem is when you, well, this has been happening to me for years, but when you start giving up this notion of becoming. Yes. And I grew up in this environment, you know, where everybody had to achieve, you know, they're all overachievers and success was, you know, was basically identified or related to, you know, academic or monetary success, yeah, or whatever. So, it was very difficult to escape that kind of conditioning but I have been finding over the last years that I don't want to become anything.

They wear you out. That's a good goal to have. I just don't want to, I don't want to be anything, I just want to sort of like just relax, relax. And, you know, I have to be something, and I don't want to be anything, you know, and be in the moment. But I, I find that it's a real struggle living in this society because you have to work. Yeah. And in order to work, you have to, you have to become, you know, you know, you have to be able to do. Do you feel, do you feel worn out around those type of people when you're around a group of people, always?

Yes, I just try not to hang out. Yeah, they, they wear me out. Well, just don't think about it. Like, don't think about it. Things will be changing all the time and whatever. But if you don't think about it, it will just be taken care of by life. Yeah, because I just feel more and more and more that work is such a waste of time. There's such a precious life, and to pour all of this life into this. Yeah, you always find yourself walking off, walking out. Well, what brought you here? What brought you here? Tell us what brought you here. What brought you here?

What brought you here? Well, I like the message. I like, I like what. Where did you see the message? Our, our friend Padma, I was going to. Just a minute. That makes sense. Yeah. I'm going along. Absolutely. To see what's going on there. Yeah. What's that? There's some intelligence there, isn't it, that's dragged you along? Absolutely. I'm trying to understand exactly what Bob is, the message she's trying to get across. And, essentially, that we, um, we, um, don't exist, essentially. It's a sea. As a separate entity. Yes. And I really want to feel that. I want to feel. It will happen. Yeah. But it's already happening.

It's happening for a lot of time. Just see when it's not happening, what obscures it. So drop the wanting, it'll happen much easier. A lot of people who first come here will say, oh, you know, when I'm at the meetings, I feel this sense of awareness and space and timelessness, and as soon as I walk out the door, I'm back into all the shit of the world. No, no, the awareness is there 24 hours. What happens is the mind kicks back in, and that separate entity that's got to go to work and all that shit seemingly takes you away from the awareness. It doesn't. The awareness is there 24-7.

So it's only ever conceptual that you've moved away from it. See, that's probably the most common thing you hear from people coming here. Oh, you know, I had it, then I've lost it. No, it's not I've lost it, it's just I don't want to be at that workplace. I don't want to be around those people. I'd much prefer to spend my time around them. But you can be around them. But you know what Jesus said? He said, be in the world, but not of the world. Yeah, that's what he means. Yeah. What if you felt the same way as when you were doing the movie?

Like you do your film and you hang around those people and you're in the same sense of flow, same sense of the universe using me. That wouldn't be a problem. The problem is only there because when you are around these people, you don't want to be there. You want to be somewhere else. You want to be doing something else. So there is a resistance towards what is. But the real freedom is when you experience that freedom, even when you have menstruation, even when you have headache, and even when you are surrounded by people that are crazy. The freedom comes from within. It's freedom regardless of circumstances, not only in the moments when it's pleasure and I'm in the artistic, you know, like flow and the muse has taken me, but also in the mundane, normal things like washing dishes, cutting the water, chopping the wood, even in this moment.

So see, you have very, very good. Sort of a grab on that sense of flow when you are doing something that you were born to do. So now see how are those moments different to the moments of resistance? I don't want to be around this crazy people. They not life is wasted. You know, we should be doing only valuable stuff. This is what is the difference? Really? Difference is the inner dialogue. The talk that no, I don't want it. This is wrong. This is waste of time. Waste of life. You know, this is it. If that sort of a, if that inner dialogue wasn't there, but you were like, if you were in that sense of that stage of no self, there wouldn't be anyone who would say, oh, this is wrong.

I shouldn't be here. The sense of belonging and being one with that moment wouldn't be obscured. Because you're not present, are you? Because if you're always thinking about, I should be doing something better, you're not in the present. Yeah. You're conceptualizing about the present. Yeah, you're in the head. You know, it's about some imaginary future. Yeah, that's exactly it. Some better place in the future that you can move to or become. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. And there's another biblical saying, Jesus said, wear the world like a light garment. Don't take it too seriously. I mean, as we were talking about all this shit before the meeting, if you take all that shit seriously, you end up in a nut house.

Yeah, that's true. Talking about the church and pedophiles and Hillary Clinton, and tr, oh, yeah. In a nut house. You'll never reconcile it. I just don't. reconcile it ever that's right that's what you're saying is perfectly correct 100% you want to say something yeah you were saying something nothing's coming up oh and i was just saying to her that just to be that moment where the flow stops and something else comes in and just then you start to see some unraveling unfolding or something yeah it's it's a good place to actually really have a nice look what is going on there when that resistance comes in the picture yeah right yeah and then and then you actually see and then this is where sometimes you first kind of identify with the witness that is aware of the resistance and then you realize that even the witness is basically it's not even there in the picture but first as terry was saying if you can actually see what is going on that resistance in a in a seeming distance like you are watching it as the movie on the screen it's not me being you know in the midst of that resistance but it is kind of happening in the awareness that's the first place recognizing what the body is doing you know you can see the knots in the in the stomach you know the breathing the tension you can notice how that resistance is appearing in the body how in the emotion what the inner dialogue goes with it like what a waste you know this stuff is all happening and watch it as if it was on the screen body is the screen feelings are the screen but there is a knowing of it and you are the knowing of it you're not the content it feels like you know when you kind of embody that model you identify with it it feels like this is me i'm suffering i'm wasting my life but when you actually step back and you see ah okay there is a thought i'm wasting my life and that thought appears in the body as knots in the guts and stress and that same thought appears in the mind as mental pictures of something else and you actually see it in a way as as the content then you are already different from the content this is the first step you're waking up from the first layer of the dream you actually realize that that thought created the reality reality is the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality is neutral it doesn't have any judgment there is nothing good about but the thought has re RED the whole story of that moment and now you're waking up from that thought and now the next step is actually who is looking who is aware because it may feel like okay i am the awareness very beautifully described it's this very subtle difference like you know i am aware of what is going on in my head it's hard enough to put my mind down but once another step is looked up can understand it can understand it and that gesture that heat is just the breathing movement what is doing in my mind to keep it warm and it can be flame to accept it for some time i'm곰 or in my heart or in my body or anywhere I am the awareness of it but I the awareness now I've got it and in a moment I wouldn't want I won't be getting it the the trick is the one who is watching the witness ultimately doesn't exist it's just the knowing pure knowing there's nobody who knows it but it's just a knowing so the knowing you see you know the body you know the thought appeared you know the thought has kidnapped the body and made it tense and made it in created mental images reinterpreted people in the wrong job everything that very thought just superimpose another reality on completely neutral fact of sitting breathing doing whatever so now you're waking up from this thought and the trap that mind offers is I woke up now from the thought you know the thought has kidnapped the body and made it tense and made it in created mental images reinterpreted people in the wrong job everything that very thought is still better than sitting identify I was gonna say that it's what Sherry said that wasn't him yeah it's still an exponential move away from a separate me the poor me it's it's it's not like you said it's not where he needed to be but it's still an exponential jump away from poor me I'm suffering in the world is to step back and see yourself as the witnessing right and it's still an exponential move away from poor me I was gonna say that it's what Sherry said that wasn't him yeah it's still an exponential move away from poor me I'm suffering in the world is don't sort of think you have to take this quantum leap because it may seem if it's happening too incrementally most of us have been coming here for years and years and years and it does seem to happen like incrementally or until you realize well no it wasn't happening incrementally there was only now all the time it was just my mind that thought it was happening incrementally but go with the flow it was just that's what came up in my mind we use that same quote or phrase all the time go with the flow what Bob says the river and then we take that bucket of water out and try and hang on to what's happening instead of going and we know it in our language we say that all the time just go with the flow but we don't we get that big bucket of water out some people take a friggin bathtub of water out you know and try and hang on well I do I take a friggin one of those great big friggin water trucks full out of the time sometimes but everyone goes with the flow anyway but some go with the flow with a lot of suffering and complaining that's the paradox isn't it you're going with the flow anyway anyway now you can either suffer and go with that for me down the river before you get in the river without that poor me and it's a lot better you can really enjoy the ride I like the river yeah do the backstroke up the river you know they wonder why they're not getting anywhere it's just something that came up is whilst I was a seeker whilst I was trying to become whilst I was trying to find trying to get better right now be happier and all that stuff whilst I was in that state I was like a tree and I'm talking about a big tree like a really big fifty-foot high tree all the roots down in the ground obviously been there for a long time the tree and I'm the tree and what I was doing whilst I was a seeker whilst I was trying to find my way out of I was holding on to my roots no!

but I was trying to find my way out of I was holding on to my roots no! holding on with every single fucking root that was in the ground constantly because i thought if i let go the tree's going to fall over yeah right okay so that's the tension i don't know how that's just the tension yeah that i was carrying in my body yeah or there's like that hanging on yeah just like a tree i'm hanging on the wind would blow oh i've got to hang on a bit harder yeah yeah you know that's just an analogy of being buffeted by life yeah you know and just feeling like i really needed to hang on you know and i kind of went pop and let go of the hanging on tree wasn't going anywhere didn't have to hang on at all didn't have to hang on at all and the whole tree relaxes if you like yeah and then just just becomes true point that you made an interesting point before yeah when you said you know some thoughts arise but you've found that you're in a pretty good place yeah and they kind of they don't they don't bother you too much it's like you've got a handle on it not a handle no but i can that that i'm paraphrasing what did you say do you remember i don't remember but i can see them i can see them and um you know if they start to affect me those negative thoughts i i find myself saying you know it's like go away it's like you know i don't need you here you know it's like and my my joyful self is pushing it away kind of thing right right those thoughts that are coming up yeah yeah remember earlier yeah when i said there's a screen of thoughts yeah that come up yeah yeah that thought in you that's that's arising yeah just push it push it away yeah that's that close me i'm talking about yes yes yes that needs to be seen for what it actually is it is only another thought yeah what it does it's so coming yeah and it's so close and hard to get distance between it it's quite hard yeah to get this going and really you just gotta let it go yep between it seems to get distance between the stuff that you can't see and just floats through your head because it's so close what it does is it identifies with the body and it identifies with the source of presence and it identifies with awareness yeah and what we're saying is here that me doesn't exist it's not there it's total imagination it's illusory just comes up it's just a thought only and what you're left with is yeah but I'm still here I'm still and I still feel stuff in my body and I still feel separate I don't feel connected I said I feel like I'm everything I don't feel like I'm empty that'd be great just empty out that would be great I don't feel that either that's how close it is and how difficult it can actually be to see and you can catch it in your own dialogue like I caught it coming out of you when you were talking yep this yeah there's some thoughts that go on but you know it's kind of like there's the good part of me yeah there's a happy happy part of me that it's all okay yeah it's that one that's going everything's okay that that is the one that's close to you it feels it's either in control you can choose I can push it away I cannot accept it it's close and just like you see those initial thoughts come up that you're describing yeah you need to be able to see that me that's ever so close the same way so it's deeper it's a lot deeper than just becoming aware of yeah yeah thoughts that just float through my head you know because there's still a me there going yeah I see it I'm aware of it I see it what now you can set up the duality of thought fighting with thought then you know what I mean what Terry's saying is as long as that that me is there which is a thought and it's analyzing the thoughts that are coming up that's two things duality but they'll tend to fight each other the thought me is that is a thought is analyzing the other thoughts yes that's how's that ever going to reconcile itself when you think of it it can't reconcile itself can it no self-referring thoughts so the thought refers back to the thought to prove that it's the thinker it's so randomly that's what Eckhart's awakening was oh it's two there can't be two that doesn't make sense I don't get that one but apparently that worked for him who's this Eckhart Tolle said he saw two selves and there couldn't be two selves and that woke him up I don't get it but apparently it's a thing I don't get it that's what I'm doing all I'm doing is being conveyed to you don't take what I say to be something don't take what I say to be that's an interesting concept that's an interesting idea yeah that's interesting yeah yeah I think that's super great yeah the idea and it's easy and look that's kind of okay too because initially we kind of do do that we do yeah anyone that says they've done this full of shit yeah we do exactly we do You might not understand that, but you're both.

The sense is not a whole, and I might be wrong, but the sense that I get is there's not a whole tonne or heap of suffering going on in there. Not a tonne of it. Not certainly compared to what was going on over here. That's the sense I get, and I could be totally wrong. What you and me are displaying now might not be what's really going on. I don't know. So normally a great motivator for people, but it doesn't have to be. I just want to clarify that. It really, really doesn't have to be. You're in an okay space. Yeah, yeah, okay, I don't want to be at work.

I get that. Who fucking does? Not many people. Most people might fucking run away from their job. But you have moments of reprieve at work where you disappear. You've already told us that. You actually disappear. Fucking lucky you. And most people don't get to experience that. So that's so awesome. That's awesome. So all I would say is a gentleness. I don't know, but all I would say is just try, if you can. I'm not quite sure how aware you are of this and thoughts that come up. I'm not sure because we haven't had a conversation. But generally there's... Thoughts that are happening pretty much like a non-stop until you get into your quiet moments.

Normally. It's generally about self or others. It's always in relation. Always. Even in relation to yourself. It's always in relation. And relation is just the split. Relation is duality. That is the split. So, yes, become aware of all the dialogue that goes on instead of being it. You can't be aware of something if you're it. Do you understand? Yes. Yes. Yes. There's automatically separation. Now for me, I walked around my whole life believing that what I was was what flowed through my head. There's no separation from it. None. Right. Zero. I was it. And I lived in that. No wonder I was in a constant state of anxiety.

Yes. No wonder I constantly felt isolated and alone and fearful. Of course. If you knew what floated through my head floated through yours, you'd be the same. You just would. So you kind of become it. Yes. You've already started to be able to see, oh, yes, stuff kind of comes to you. And sometimes it's a bit yucky, some of the thoughts that you're aware of that come through. But it's okay. There's a more gentle, higher, softer part of myself that sees that and I can just kind of, I see it for what it is and just choose not to put any attention on it. Yes.

Yes. Great. And you'll do that for as long as you need to do that. Yes. But eventually you'll get to a point where you will start to need to try and identify what is it that's also feels it's a higher self, it's a weller self. It has the capacity to shun thoughts, move its attention away from thoughts. It can be really difficult to see because in my experience it kind of didn't show up as blatantly as the normal thoughts that float through my head. So the normal thoughts that would float through my head, there was a subtle me, there was a subtle thought that kind of wasn't there that used to come in that would have an opinion on that, not one that, you know, higher than, lower than.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Getting it, not getting it. Why can't I get it? What am I missing? All that stuff. I can see I'm not my thoughts. Now what? And the thought, I can see I'm not my thoughts. Now what is what needs to be seen? Not that. But initially. You got it? Yes. Okay. But initially what we do, initially what we do is we see that and it's absolutely necessary. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's absolutely necessary, but then there'll be, there's a subtler thought that arises, yeah, okay. Yeah. That's what needs to be seen.

Who is saying, now what. Yeah. And it's closer. And who's saying now what? Who is? Yes. Find out. That's it? That's where you need to be looking. Right. Yeah. Okay. But it'll just happen. Yeah? Like, there's no pressure. It's just something that, it kind of unfolds before you just start to become aware and things start to unfold. You start to see things. It's kind of the opposite approach that's worked for me. It's like they use the phrase quite often here, I am that, like I'm already that. And for me it was like Peter said, I might have come out of some 18 thing, but just put the coat on and wear it.

What's it like if you're wearing that coat? So you know the phrase, what's wrong with you not thinking of that? Like if you pause and thought. Nothing. Exactly. So that's it. And so it would come up, the point itself would just pop up. And for me there's never, for at least a couple of years, there's never been a sense of decision making or it's just things are just popping, like movements, like I'm here, that's it. That only comes up if someone asks why you're here. There's no planning decision, none of that stuff. So that was already kind of quite strongly, it's just certain all the time that it's just happening.

And then, well it's not certain, it's just not, it's not uncertain either, it's just not a thing and it does, activity seems to come in that area. And so quite often, or yeah, what's going on here, there's no thing happening, there's no labelling, there's no, you just got, yeah, you know, some sensation or some visual memory or something. And you know, you can't even answer a question if you're not thinking about anything, you know. There's just, it can come up a little bit later, oh, what's there if you don't think about it. You check in, you go back to not thinking and clearly nothing can be said.

And it's that kind of thing, so it's always coming from the other end, it's more what works here. So some of these things that people are saying, definite steps you have to have, I don't have. But then what also happens that maybe they don't have is persistent, like the body tension, Terry was talking about this, like I was watching a bit of a movie, but because I've been kind of very relaxed in a way, I'm not used to, it was just like, oh my God, this tense body, oh my God, and there it is, it's just tense again. And this is, watching this movie, it's gone into tension again, it's constantly triggered, triggered.

And I can quite see the abstraction of it and more lately not even own a little bit. You know, we'll own a bit and then quite, it will just really not even feel personalised at all after a second or two or a few. Sometimes, you know, it can actually, then actually not even be fearful anymore, you know. It's not even really, it's not even, you know, it's just a situation that's happening, you know. But that is, so it's that thing about like a sense of it, like the thoughts coming up are probably useful and I saw them at the Bushman's retreat, so I probably don't know if I, I've always been an observer, observer of what's going on in the head, but really seeing them pop up as separate thoughts about everything.

But the, because I don't take mental notes in this sort of area, so that's a loose track. Other work here, I take mental notes, but I don't know what mental notes, I don't know what they're taking as I see a lot of it. Yeah. And here, it's like it just doesn't happen. It's not like there was some, yeah, anyway. So let's try, let's sort of come back and see. Oh, yeah, so I don't really see that as a thing. I never really saw that as a, the thoughts of, as a self. And I never put a, I never saw what's going on here as a self, but I think I used the term granularity for what you're saying, like, because I guess we all just have different spatial concerns.

I think we all have different spatial conceptions and different times, so it's more like they're coming in, you know, so they're either coming in quite fine ones or they're coming in fat, obvious ones. And sometimes it's a little weird clear ownership thought, you know, and then it might drop the puppy through. So it's just, yeah, yeah, you just see the more subtle ones, like, you know, someone would say, what's, you know, what's wrong with me, I'm thinking about, what's the other one you use, the full stop. And then I do the full stop, and then I think, oh, I'm going to do the full stop.

And then I think, oh, I'm going to do the full stop. And then I think, oh, I'm going to do the full stop. And then I think, oh, this is a boring living room. But it's like, where did that boringness come from? It was a very subtle thought that didn't even get, even the puppy hasn't been properly really picked up, although it doesn't really happen anymore. But there was just some resistances that may have tiny words that aren't actually picked up, but sometimes then you start to actually see them, and they are there, little words, you know. And, yeah, but at the end of the day, at some point you just care much less that any of that's even happening.

And the churn can sort of be very strong and trigger even more as stuff gets exposed that didn't used to be exposed. And the thoughts about that mattering or being a bother, or it just might constantly flash in that they really, nothing can be said about it anyway, so it's all completely light and not really real, flashes in quite a lot, you know. And it really is just like flashing in, and things are flashing in, and they, clearly just wave is evolving and unraveling. And that's flashed in, that's a load of shit too, because when I did Google what the physicists even know, and it's like they haven't actually discovered anything that they theorized about.

And there may be a plasma, and there may be some string, and there may, but they haven't found atoms, or they haven't found molecules, or any of that stuff. It's just, it appears to us to pop in, but we really can't say anything about it when we do that shut off, you know. Yeah. When she said that saying, when she said, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, when does the day actually finish and the night start? No, serious question. When does the day finish and the night start? Officially? We have a conceptual idea that when the sun goes down and it gets dark, right?

Yeah. But from a point, from the point of the sun going down, from the point of what Terry's saying, right, day and night appear within you. That's right. So from the point of who you really are, there is no day or night or there is no time. They're just conceptual constructs that we see in nature. Oh, the sun comes up, we'll call that the start of the day, the sun goes down, it gets dark. Well, that's not, the sun doesn't come up and the sun doesn't go down. The earth's rotating. Yeah. We're told. And the sun seemingly comes up and seemingly goes down. So what's, scientists will tell us what's really happening is the earth's rotating, we'll face the sun for 12 hours, it will seem light and it will rotate and it will seem we're facing away from it so it seems dark.

But do you have any concept of the world spinning? We're not going around and around now, are we? No. Right? No. I think you actually are doing 50,000 kilometres an hour, so we're going to be doing that. They say that, don't they? They say that we're going at this really fast speed. The end of the day. It's registering, it's not registering on a very conscious level. But we know, what my point is, we make these arbitrary points. We say, oh, at the end of the day, we're making, we're picking out like a film editor does. He'll pick out a beginning. Yeah. Then you have the film that runs for a while, then he'll say, all right, you stop because I do film editing.

So you put in your starting point, you put in your ending point. Isn't that exactly the way the mind works? Yeah. A thought will come up, it runs for a while, then it will seemingly stop. Right? So can it be, can it be ultimately the reality? No. Well, it can't be because the field, the field that appears within is what? Emptiness, nothingness. So you can't conceptualise, you can't perceive it, you can never say what it is. But you can only say what it's not. It's not the body. It's not the mind. It's not the thoughts. It's not the emotions. It's what's left over, which is nothing.

That's all you can do. And that nothing, it never really have any preferences. That nothing never really says that it should be different. It never says that there's anything wrong. That's why Nisargadatta says that, you know, actually, the only thing you can say about being one with everything is nothing's wrong. Nothing's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one's saying that something is wrong anymore. So if there is any sign that something is wrong, there is already that person subtly coming back in the picture. Because the universe, the totality, the absolute, is pure perfection. It's a non-conceptual awareness, pure perfection.

Now, that idea that something is wrong is obviously separated from the pure perfection. It's in the opposition to the pure perfection. and the investigation Haven't there been all these incredible people who have done amazing things in this world? Seemingly Because they have this impulse that something is wrong or something needs to be fixed Seemingly yes Or something needs to be discovered in the world It could have happened this way Einstein, take Einstein for example Not necessarily What's powering Einstein though? Plus, who cares what the commentary was going on in the head? There was an impulse from the body for a new discovery Or there was some sort of a movement happening And now whether the thought comes and says Oh the world is rotten and let's create atomic bomb and blow it off Or whether the idea says Oh my gosh I feel the inspiration There is something beautiful coming up I'm on the track on it Whether the idea is this or idea is that Or any other commentary goes on It doesn't matter The fact of the matter is That The energy built up And made the scientist discover something What story he told himself Is completely irrelevant But every time I hear that story about the deepest profound stuff It was just like your flow For me You know, the poetry or some of the stuff that comes up It's just like fuck that's pretty cool Couldn't have thought of that You know It's just flowed And you know What things seem in the fire The guy, you know The apple falls near the head Whatever Yeah, they just They have no rest The apple comes That's the flow Next time you're editing a video Just stop and have a look And see how closely Our paradigm is to the way that your thinking works The way you edit sequences in and out of your Because that's what you're doing when you're thinking You're basically editing what's going on You're taking out certain things And saying I like that I don't like that Or that section is good It's just like you're looking at Editing a film And you say I'll keep going If you're editing You're editing a film that part, I'll ditch that part, I'll keep that next part, and you join it all together to make a story.

Isn't that exactly the way thinking works? We tend to be attracted to the good things, pleasure, excitement and that, and we want to disregard the negative things, the things that make us unhappy. Sometimes we're just attracted to the drama, and you keep out all the things that are boring and bring up the dramatic ones. Exactly. Some people, we call them drama queens, don't we? The people who edit out all the good things. And does the best movies, when they're dramatic. They'll edit out all the good things and the bad things, and they'll just keep all the things that, yeah, all the crazy things. Either way, they just serve the story.

They serve the story. Everything we do seemingly serves the story. The movies are all different. But it all revolves around me. That's the point. The whole lot is normally revolving around me. Me as the centre, as the star of the show, as the person who's running the show. It's often banshees and thoughts that act in any way. Me and mine. Me and mine. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do Robin next time. I said a few things. No, you didn't have your own version of it. Or life would be your own then. Thanks, Tony.