Nonduality spiel and discussion

Is it working or not? I guess. Okay. So, say your names. Luke, Girish, Tony, Teri, Robin, and Kat. And the Kat between you two. Okay. So, because we are a small group, we can be probably more practical. Oh, maybe not that small anymore. We'll see. So, your first time, but did you hear about nonduality much enough? Did you hear Nisargadatta or any of the teachings? Are you ready for kind of immersion? I've heard of them, yes. Just research online, really. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, I wanted to make it kind of more practical because the basics is, the basic Advaita teaching says that there is no separate self.

That everything is just one life expressing us every form and pattern. So there isn't any entity that is thinking thoughts, that is looking through your eyes, that is beating your heart. None of it is done by the entity. It is all done, hey. It's all done by the same life that is growing the trees, that is moving the wings. So if this one is, this is the start point, really. That's right. That any sort of an idea of separate entity doing anything is basically a belief. And that belief can be questioned. And when that belief is questioned, the separate entity basically can't be sustained by that belief anymore.

So if you think you are a separate body or you separate mind or you separate person there inside somewhere, and you question it and you see that you can't find anything like that, then whatever happens is just the manifestation of that one life or one intelligence or one emptiness or whatever you want to call it, or God. People call it different names. So that's the basics. Now, to get into the more practical part of it, is how do you realize that absence of the personal self, knowing that it feels so persistently certain that there is a me, there is a self, and also there is a sense of location, that I'm looking from some angle, that I'm responding when my body is challenged anyhow.

So, there's few lines of questioning to actually realize that that personal self doesn't really exist. One of the lines of questioning that Bob is suggesting is looking at the idea of being a body. So, am I my body? I'm saying my body, it means the body is something I possess rather than something I am. Also, when you realize that the body is constantly changing, like the body you had in childhood, or the body you were born with, there is not one single cell the same as it was back then. So, you can't be the body because the body is moving, is changing. This is a passing phenomenon.

So, now also the body is not, you can't separate the body from the environment. They use the analogy of five elements, that the body is made of fire, water, earth, air and space. Basically, like everything around us. So, the body is sustained by all these elements, like the fire is the heat, the body temperature. If you deselect the heat, the body can't be animated anymore. Water you have to replenish, the food you have to supply, the air you're breathing. So, this is really, the body isn't really separated from the environment. It's kind of one and all with it, it's fluid, it's liquid. The trick of perception, governed by the mind, because the senses are actually governed by the mind, is that we see the separate objects.

That's how we were trained to see. So, another line of investigation is, am I the mind? Because it feels like, okay, body is my coat or my car, is the vehicle, but am I the mind then? So, we say my mind the same way as we say my body. So, can I be the mind? The mind is, again, the tool I possess. It's the computer I'm using, or it is translating devices. Another way to look at this, it is to realize what the mind is. And you see that the whole mind is basically a stream of thoughts. So, you can't be any of that particular thoughts.

You can't be all of them, because they're transient. There's nothing solid about it. So, there is one thing in that line of questioning. When you question, am I the body? No. The body is transient. I can't be it. I'm aware of the body, so there is, I can't be it. Now, am I the mind? No. They're just thoughts. They're transient. I can't be the mind. But there is one thing that is not even a thing, but there is one line of investigation, which leaves you at the point where you can't deny your own existence. I mean, you can say, I don't exist, but to say it, you have to exist.

So, existence is not a thing, but it is undeniable. The sense of presence, the awareness of presence, which is not even a sensation, it's just the basic screen on which the sensations are coming and going. That can't be denied. And that is something that never changes. If you look back in time, and the time is also a mental construct, but just for the sake of pointing, you see that awareness of presence or knowing that you are. Were there when you were a child. It was there in the past. It is there as long as you can remember, just knowing that you exist, knowing that you are.

Content of that knowing is different. One day, you feel elated. Another day, you feel insecure. Yet another day, there are different obsessive thinking going on. Yet another day, pretty quiet. This is all changing phenomena. Beautiful Kundalini experiences, all changing phenomena. Union, mystical union, changing phenomena. Those are all completely irrelevant. They are beautiful, but they are completely uninteresting. Because they are part of the appearance. So the appearance, the body is appearance. The mind is appearance. Thoughts are appearance. Experiences are appearance. But there is one thing that can't be denied, is the presence of awareness or just the sense of being. That is not even a thing.

You can't be aware of your being in a way that you are aware of the thoughts or your body. Because you are that being. So you can't have awareness of what you are, but you can't deny it. So this is basically when the focus of Advaita or non-duality lies. On something that is absolutely undeniable. And this is just the one thing in the world. There is nothing else. Everything else can be disputed or argued or questioned and brought back to nothing. Because everything else is made of passing phenomena. Looking at this from the point of eternity, they don't exist. Because they just show up. Even for a million years, they just come and go.

So they are not permanent. They are not interesting. Same with any line of thinking, any philosophy, any schools of philosophy. Same thing applies. They exist. They are passing phenomena. They come up and they disappear. So not interesting again. Okay, back to the topic. A little bit of a discussion. Disturbance. So that's what basically non-duality is all about. And now, from this standpoint, it is really about the abiding sense of abidance in that basic screen. Or that awareness of presence. To the exclusion of everything else. I mean the senses will be operating. The eyes will be seeing content. The ears will be hearing content. The mind will be holding content of thoughts.

And those are all viewed as passing phenomena. While the attention rests on itself. It basically comes back to the basic screen. Which is not a thing. Because that's what we are. So now, how to practically do it. How to go about your day. How to go about your life. Being able to recognize the dream as the dream. Because that's what thinking really is. The moment I'm thinking about Silo Bob in hospital. I'm actually creating mental image in my head. And I'm basically putting all the attention into a mental image in my head. While life is happening here in this room. Where Silo Bob isn't. And the hospital isn't.

And most of our operating mode is being with what isn't. It's focusing attention into some mental noise. Future, past, some plans, some imaginary. Things that don't exist in this moment. But this is a very, very strong habit. Which we were cultivating right from the childhood. So, it's very, very difficult to start with. To even conceive of the idea of finding the, of resting back in this peace that passes all understanding. Because for the mind, that basic screen of peace is nothing. It's not even a space. It's less than space. It's less than silence. It's absolutely nothing. So, for this, this noisy machinery. Interested in grasping, catching thoughts and ideas.

This is so ungraspable and so boring. That the brightest minds are going and feeding themselves. And getting high and getting excited on different philosophies and different school of thoughts. Rather than resting in that uncontrived singularity and just letting it unfold. So, practically, because the whole, the whole mind is operating on probably 80% of, uh, of attention goes there. You know, like walking is automatic. Seeing, hearing, all automatic. It's just happening in autopilot. And attention habitually goes to the thoughts. So, the easy way to go about the life. This, uh, this entangling from the story is to bring, bring it back, bring attention back to the senses.

And this is where, uh, Buddhists are giving us a hint of, uh, being utterly awake with five senses wide open and unfixated awareness. Five senses. Because they call mind sixth sense. So, they call thinking as one of the senses. But all the five senses are also operated by the mind. Like, we wouldn't be able to recognize people we are passing or friends if we didn't relate it to the memory, which is mind. So, basically, bringing the attention back to seeing. As I'm walking about or doing something, look for something fresh and new. See something with new eyes. And see how the thinking stops being so attractive at this moment.

And you go, oh, okay. I didn't see this before. Oh, look at the flower. Yesterday wasn't there. So, this is really, this is really easy way to disentangle, free some of the attention from the head back to the, to the moment, to that reality that is happening here now. Another thing, very easy, is hearing. Just listening to sounds. The moment when, when I'm noticing sounds around. It could be even trivial sounds, sound of the traffic or anything. Again, that amount of attention that goes into the listening or into a just hearing, just a broad hearing, is disentangled from thinking, from compulsion, from this addictive compulsive mental noise that we believe.

Another thing, focusing on the other senses. Body, smell, taste, whatever, the sense of balance. That's, ideally, the way Bob points it. Divide your attention evenly between the five senses. Hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. There won't be anything left for thinking. And experiencing when the attention is equally divided into peripheral vision, not focusing on anything, but just, just plain capacity or space of seeing. Just being aware of that space of seeing. Because this is, the whole manifestation is actually an expression of that spacious cognizing emptiness. And it expresses through that device as the space of seeing, space of hearing, space of tasting, touching, smelling. It's the same space modified by the equipment there, the bio-computer there.

So, bringing it back to this space without focusing on anything specific deprives the whole stream of attention, is evenly distributed. And it's the brain, the mind, the compulsion that is actually deprived from the power. It doesn't get this electricity. It doesn't mean that the thinking is wrong. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong and we should stop thinking. We can't stop thinking. Just like we can't stop seeing. I mean, we can pull the eyes out, but that wasn't, that wouldn't be our doing anyway. That would be a thought that would make us do it. Those inflatable things that blow in the wind, like at the car wash.

Yeah. Featuring like, you stop the air and it just falls onto the ground. That's a beautiful way to put it, yes. You don't blow this life over it and it just flatten down, like a balloon that you just release all the air off. Yeah. And then, yeah, going back to thinking, because the idea may be that, oh, thinking is wrong, we should stop thinking. We can't, because if there is no entity, if that's just that one life expressing, through the tree as the branches and leaves, through the cat as meowing, through the people as thinking or judging or whatever, it is still going to be happening and there's nothing wrong about it.

It's basically about where is the heart of the matter, where is the essence. So, if thinking goes in the background as functioning or problem solving or even planning when necessary, everything's welcome. But if the thinking becomes obsessive, compulsive, self-obsession, because it very often goes to the point where it is very painful self-obsession. What people think about me? What am I going to do with my life? I'm wasting my potential. I'm being not enough. So, this stuff, it goes like a broken machine. It completely hijacked the whole show. It's a beautiful game going on right now. It's a beautiful dream that could be fully appreciated on the level of senses and beyond the level of senses when the attention rests back on itself and it expresses as pure bliss.

But even on the level of senses, it's a beautiful, they call it maya or illusion, beautiful manifestation. But we miss out on it because the habit, trained from early childhood, is to focus on the story in the head, which is precisely what is not happening. The story in the head is usually not about the look of the carpet or whatever, is what is not happening. So, the invitation is to actually go back to reality, to the here now, to what is actually happening in the dream, rather than overlay that dream with another, like a thick blanket of a dream going on in the head, thinking about myself and my interactions and my, what is it, relationships.

Did you want to say something? Yeah. It's like being in a trance where everything is constantly being interpreted and taken personally. Taken personally. Taken personally. Yeah. But being in the present is not running that. That's exactly right. It's interpretive, like machinery. Yes. Yes. And that's the invitation. And living from that point is a completely different quality. It's called effortless living and it is called this way for a reason. It really is effortless because whatever needs to happen, whatever thought needs to come, it will appear on the right time, in the right moment. So, whatever functional thoughts is going to happen, it will show up. Whatever action is required, it will show up.

And this is what has been happening all along. I mean, the idea that I am an individual or the person is basically a belief, just like the belief in Santa Claus. So, yeah, I believe in Santa Claus, I get the gifts for Christmas. Now I stop believing. Did the gifts disappear from the past? No. I've still received. I still have a little bicycle as a child. The Santa Claus was never real. So, the gifts come from somewhere else. So now, if I believe that I am an individual or I am an entity and I have graduated from this academy and I had this career and I went that far in my career and I've done it all together because I'm such a brilliant entity and now I know I'm not.

So, does the career and all the past disappear? No. It gets re-translated. I haven't done a thing. The thought appears to go for... This study, the thought appear to go and get promotion. It wasn't me. It happens just the way life happens. So not only I've stopped doing everything as an entity, I've never done a thing in my life. I thought I did. I was taking credit for most of my life for everything that I've done. Just because I believed that was me who was doing it. But in fact, in truth, there wasn't any. There wasn't a Santa Claus bringing me gifts. And there wasn't a Katarina achieving anything she's achieved.

It was life that formed and shaped this body and this personality in that exact shape and form. Expressing through this personality the way it does brought up this type of results. So I've done as little as for the last couple of years as I did for the rest of my life. But the rest of my life I believed that I was the doer. But that could be very, very easily verified. And Bob does it in kind of a joking way. Like you believe you are the doer. So are you doing the seeing? What are you doing to actually start seeing? You wake up early in the morning or late in the morning, whatever.

And you open your eyes. And do you have to think yourself to do the seeing? All the capacity is there. The space of seeing is there. Of course. Do you beat your heart? Do you pump your blood? So all that things to grow your hair? All the things we think as a doers we are doing is plainly ridiculous. So do we think the thoughts? And now let's see what's the next thought is going to be. Anybody knows what is going to be the next thought? Or what are you going to be thinking tomorrow noontime? No clue. The thoughts arise just like sounds arise. I don't know what car is going to pass from here in five minutes.

I have no idea. Or maybe they will be shooting on the street. Whatever. I don't know. And the exactly same way I don't know with thoughts. Because sounds, everything the way Bob presents it is just that nothingness shaping into a vibration. Like static aspect is the basic screen. Dynamic aspect. Shiva is static. Shakti is dynamic. It forms vibration. So the sound is vibration. So the sound is vibration. Every sound here we hear is just the vibration of space. Thought is very subtle sound. So it's also a vibration. So basically along this line of thinking the whole manifestation is a thought formation. So it's basically a very subtle vibration of space or emptiness.

And it suggests that there is space and emptiness or static and dynamic. No, there is no two. And there is not even one. The language though, it limits us in a way of expressing it. Because the way language is structured, the way mind is structured is basically operating between the two extremes always. So it's always dualistic. So it's always dualistic. Every word has its opposite. Every description has its opposite. And within that range of interrelated opposite, good, bad, happy, sad, ugly, pretty, mind goes in all scale, all the gray tones of the words. So there is no words. So there is no words that could describe something beyond the duality.

So everything that is ever said in the most brilliant or most stupid or most whatever ways is always wrong. Every pointer is always just a dualistic words used in a more precise or less precise, more fortunate or less fortunate way. But it's equally bullshit. Every word ever spoken, every pointer into non-duality using words which is mind can be debated and can be proven wrong. And that's good. Because every pointer is to be thrown away ultimately. It is not about talking the talk. It is about walking the walk. So, uh, is it nice to live knowing this? Oh, it's, well, again, I would have to use duality.

Because nice comparing to what? So I'll compare it to the time three years ago. Shit, yes. Oh, boy. Three years ago. My God. I was totally full of self-pity, full of shame, full of guilt, full of self-obsession. I was so concerned with myself. Yeah. I was coming to these meetings and I was afraid to open my mouth and ask questions because I didn't want to appear stupid. Because it was so important that I don't appear stupid. And I was feeding on the teachings. But I was feeding using this machinery here. I was entertaining myself like, oh, my God, what a great idea. I want to grasp them with my mind.

It was just such a beautiful challenge. Like, ah, try to grasp the space like emptiness and you are everything. You want, oh, you pure love. Gosh, this sounds so exciting. I have to try harder and think more. And, of course, it's never, ever, ever, ever going to happen this way. Because the peace is when the mind is not. When the thinking goes off the way, you basically park it aside. It is all there. The story of the story of Ananda's awakening, the Buddha's, like, right-hand man, was the flower. The flower. No, it's the story about after the Buddha's death, everybody got together to talk about how they would perpetuate the teaching.

Yeah. And you had to be an awakened being to have understood and integrated Buddha's teaching if you were going to attend this seminar or this meeting or this gathering. And this guy who'd been with the Buddha, like, for 40 years still hadn't got it. And so he was, like, trying really hard the night before this meeting to, like, to get it. And he gave up. There you go. Fuck it. Fuck it. It's not going to be for me. And before he, like, he went to bed, but before his head hit the pillow, like, he'd had the flash, the understanding, because he had stopped trying to work it out.

I like that story. This is brilliant. It says it all. It really is about giving up the mind. That's why Bob is continually repeating, no matter how smart you are, that can be actually, that can work against you. Because it can't be, it can't be grasped with the mind. It can't, because mind is duality. And we are talking about singularity. We are talking about one without the other. So what the mind can possibly grasp, having that polarity to it, is totally, totally impossible. If one thing can be understood of whole non-duality using this computer here, that's the thing that needs to be understood. Mind needs to go off the way, has to be put aside.

Like, we can entertain ourselves for the rest of our life. People do it for 50, 60 years. They entertain themselves in the mind. And they will never, ever touch it. The worst horror story, nightmare, fear, is like, is it, is it mind, the mind's defense against being put aside, put to rest? I think it's just a faulty program. It's a faulty algorithm that has been practiced for whole life. So it kind of, and as the same way as everything in the appearance, it feeds on life, it feeds on attention. Right. So because you've got to, you've got the habit of feeding the thoughts with attention, they thrive, and they grow, and they expand.

And of course, thoughts are just part of the manifestation. They're not less beautiful and wonderful than the tree or flower or galaxies. So now they're fighting for attention, for that life essence to give them, you know, give them reality. Wow. And because of the habit of giving reality to thinking, now I'm saying Bob is in a hospital, and suddenly this room is not important at all, it's boring, and Bob is there, completely real, in the hospital. Where? Where? It's just a thought. But that's how we learn to, the symbolic language, to replace reality with the symbol of thought. And because it is so fascinating, and because since childhood we were actually acknowledged for that, we were appreciated for that, we were given love for that.

Oh, you smart little boy, wonderful. So that's, that's where the habit got, got stronger. And we end up as adults, with the machinery, throwing thoughts continuously, and we don't even question any of them. We take them for granted. Oh, this guy, he looked wrongly at me. Oh, he didn't even look at me. He was looking next to me. He doesn't give a shit about me. He's self-obsessed. He's thinking about himself. And I will set off for the trip of hours, of weeks, of self-pity because of that imaginary story. And all the other stories that we basically just feed with attention. We just flood it with life essence.

See, the same way, the life, when you are, let's say, you are a scientist, and you're looking at the important discovery, and you put all the life essence, all the attention going out of your eyes or your heart into it, you're going to go for a Nobel Prize. You're going to come up with something brilliant. Because that is, the intelligence is brilliant. Everything is absolutely brilliant. And now, this very brilliance is used to perpetuate the ego and the personal stories about me and my relationships and my problems and my hobbies. It's not that it's used to perpetuate things. It's like, that's just what it does.

Yes, yes, that's what it does. And there is a brilliance in that too. Because if it didn't do it, how would you wake up from it? Like, cats, they don't do it. They are, you know, they come up with whatever comes up. And then, you know, if they don't like each other, they bark at each other and go the other way. It doesn't mean that someone who doesn't have an ego is going to like everything and everyone. Cats don't like everything and everyone. But they function naturally. They don't suffer psychologically. They don't have the sense of self-pity. They say, oh, I shouldn't be that red, you know, redhead is wrong.

They don't have these stories. Oh, I have to become someone in future. So they live effortless life. And we can live the same way. Although it's not going to be the same because the still, the thinking capacity is not going to be lost. Like, if you use your thinking, creative thinking, creative writing, art, whatever, but it doesn't use you. Like, if the thinking is going on, but there is also a recognition, oh, thinking, oh, obsessing, that's going on. And there is no resistance towards it. You actually enjoy the way, because this is how that brilliant intelligence expresses in the illusion, in the Maya, in manifestation, by the stream of thinking.

The gorgeous. So they to be acknowledged and recognized just as everything in the dream, as a dream. So the thinking. So the thinking, oh, yeah, what a beautiful dream. Oh, what a beautiful trip. Oh, I was just thinking about Bob. Gorgeous. Wonderful. I could see his face. I could hear his voice. Wonderful. So this thinking does happen also. Like, Bob always calls me after the meeting. If he wasn't capable of conceiving of mental image of me, he wouldn't be taking the phone and calling. So there is thinking going on. But again, at the same time, oh, this is all the dream. It's gorgeous. It's a beautiful dream.

It's a beautiful dream. Beautiful thought appear. Beautiful idea appears. But they don't hang on, because they very quickly recognize for what they are. You're not associated with an I will call, where they do it just happens. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. They just. Like, I guess I tend to like thinking. There's the words popping out in the head in a row. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, Melanie brought up a beautiful mushroom board. Mm-hmm. I was just thinking of psychology. Like, what we call about psychology, the animals still have it, really. So they might be functioning naturally, but all the environmental triggers that cause adverse reactions in them that aren't really necessary, because, like, there was a one-off incident, or it's not something that's a really natural part of their life.

They never really necessarily get over it unless somebody cultivates it out of them, in a way, or might not fall away. Whereas, we actually also have the opportunity, apart from the most self, of the animals, to also, if it happens that way, for the release of all the environmental triggers, too. So it's kind of interesting that, in a way, animals are kind of stuck with their environmental triggers. Unless someone else cultivates them out of them, or it just, you know, for some reason, fades. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, yeah. Because I always wonder about that psychology and the most self is, like, a couple of different slants, really, in a way.

Some people just call that personality that remains, you know, what I'm calling psychology now. But, yeah, and that's just a random thing that brings clarity to me just to see things all on the one thing. Just as the one thing. Yeah. Thank you. Just manifesting smaller, or just manifesting a different kind of format, you know. Yeah, it's a beautiful way to look at it. Yeah. You just look at completely neutral interactions with different patterns. Because personality is another beautiful way it expresses. Like, every bird has personality. Mm-hmm. And they don't have ego. It's just a bunch of reactions that have occurred from God knows what, you know.

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. It's blood, downloaded, lies of other animals, you know, who knows what, you know, to this. Actually, every single event contributes because nothing is separated. Everything is connected. The whole universe is just one body of ocean waving. So, every single event influences, you know. If you look at the outcome, the pattern of personality, that pattern of personality is such, because of multiple reasons, like infinite amount of reasons, including a climate of the country, including a politics, including the little tiniest dust on the particle on the carpet, that contributes to that particular outcome to be the way it is. I think that's actually where I've got confused sometimes, because I haven't been contextualised so much.

I mean, it's not usually contextualised. Immediacy versus everything. So, sometimes, talk switches between the immediacy and everything. Yeah. So, when all the possibilities, suddenly the talk is about everything, every immediacy, but it's not contextualised as such, so it can get confusing. But it's even, like, there's this immediacy or there's all of it. And so, potentiality is only, everything is, everything that can happen is really all immediacy, not this one. So, yeah, I just realised, just kind of now, that can be confusing if it's not, you know. I don't know how to stop it. Well, the others might take that, just as metaphors and use them in different ways.

Yeah, but it's, yeah, it's just, it's... Yeah, it's just something. Gosh, I don't know how to stop the dim light. No, I'll just leave it be. Yeah, I've had quite a good day of, um, just seeing the aspect, each aspect with a label Tony in it, popping in, and then, like, wow, just, that was a construction of the Tony. But I don't see it as an old Tony, because that's really not there when you, if you're looking carefully. But it was just one aspect of a little memory of this life being laid on top of the moment. But that's a good... And then the negative feelings it has, and just that one, and then just seeing it coming in and go, and just, actually, it just, like, just goes back to, like, nothing going on.

And I've been able to see that come in, like, very, very kind of, I can't say clearly, because that's where I used to different experiences. But it's, yeah, just coming, turning up, and going, and not getting past one aspect, and no additional crap about, oh, it's a whole Tony, or whatever, but enough of it, enough of this sort of package of an aspect of the Tony that it's, like, and an uncomfortable feeling, and then, like, whoa, what a construction that was, and really, then, just a disassociation from it, you know, going again. And it's been coming in quite a few times today, it's like, whoa, that's kind of nice, that that disassociation is there, just as it raises your head, and you go.

So you're actually coming to the point where you look at the pattern in a way that is impersonal. I've been doing that for two years, but no one really does. But this is just as stronger, it was happening more times during the day, and it was kind of, yeah, just staying, maybe staying off a bit longer as it faded, perhaps. And this is where really only, this is the only way in which you can exhibit something that is so popular in the personal growth that is called self-love. Because if you look at that pattern in a way that is completely impersonal, you're just curious about it.

You look at the different aspects of the pattern and learn about it, but you don't have expectations, I should be taller, or I should be smarter, or I should be anything, because there is no personal involvement in that. It's just pure cognizing of the pattern. Then you can actually see how brilliant it is, even in the flaws that it has. Even in the patterns like, you know, Nisargadatta, kept smoking cigarettes. How brilliant. Like sometimes, like, thanks to things you've been saying, particularly because you've raised them, I miss a bit, and Charlie and a few others. But, yeah, when the neutrality is seen, you know, just as a thing, because it's empty of location or other things, then, yeah, that fondness might turn up briefly, you know, of the nutsness of it.

You know, because it's more strongly seen as just empty, silly, and maybe in a more strong, proper way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we can choose big and small for just, it's always intermittent, you know? It's longer or shorter that there's a belief going on or not, you know? Can you actually look, because this is a very good hint, if you can look in this impersonal manner at yourself, can you also recognise the same impersonal manner of looking at anybody else? Like if somebody doesn't listen to you or somebody is nasty to you? When this happens, there's nothing there, there's no location. So when I say no location, it's not like everybody else in no location here.

I mean it accurately, no location. It's just like some images and some, you know, just some sense stuff, you know? So, yes, of course, we've got more than three years we've come to. Yeah, because that's the beauty of it. Once you recognise there's nothing impersonal about, nothing personal about this body-mind structure, there's also nothing personal about any other body-mind structures, but it's nothing personal about three. Actually, probably all my life I've done the others, but this has been left out of the equation. So, like, I've never had issues with crime to me, it doesn't mean anything, there's just an unraveling, unraveling here, there, everywhere, whatever.

Before I even discovered non-duality, I just had quite an impersonal thing on the world in many ways. There were probably some hidden stuff that when they did pop up that were more personal than I realised because they were oppressed. But, you know, generally, you know, it was just that they were unraveling, you know? I just really never thought anyone was responsible for their actions as like naughty people. You know, it's just always just unreal, right? Even though, you know, there's obviously still a concept of, you know, mechanistic universe, which nobody hasn't even clue what the universe really was. And, yeah, so it's, yeah, it's been coming, yeah, it's been storying about the things that haven't been seen as impersonal regularly, I guess, becoming into the fort, and then dropping off in a different way sometimes.

It could be an hour sometimes, or 20 minutes, you know, the end of the loop. But then quite quickly it seems just a loop. And definitely quite quickly it's not quite a work, but slower. It feels like it's not completely lived, you know, it's fuzzy still. You know, it's still... Good, that's the way to go about it. Yeah. Is there like the way Catherine looks at a couple of things before that took it right to the neutrality? Because that resonates with me, where you used to say it's just a rise, and your hands used to go out like that, and I could just see justice stuck your eyes.

Yeah, yeah, everything just is. And now if you look at it without the overlay of... Because what people usually do, they actually translate themselves. This is not just as it is, but it is the way I want it, or I don't want it, or I like it, or I don't want it. It should be like this. You know, everybody has the idea how world should be, how other people should be. The society has strong ideas. And this is all beautiful. This is all, again, part of the illusion. And it's to be acknowledged, and it's to be appreciated as illusion, as the dream. Because people take it very, very seriously, and this is the most painful part.

If I think my mother should love me a different way than she does, of course, I'm hurting, and she's hurting. And the life is as it is. And I don't really appreciate fully the way the life is expressing itself in this moment. And the beauty of living this type of effortless life where nothing is believed. I don't have to believe any story, or any structure, or any philosophy, or any way of thinking. I can basically shut up and see what's real. Nobody can tell me that I'm right or wrong without thinking. And I don't really care about what's right or wrong. The beauty of it is, because I remember I had this discussion with my mother some years back, when I was still a seeker.

And she was a wonderful friend of mine. And because I was passionate about it, she would give me a space to express. Because I needed it. Right now, I don't speak about non-duality with her. I probably never will, because she's not drawn into it. And I don't need her anymore. I don't need that space. I don't need to reassure myself in it anymore. But when the time was there, she was kind of devil's advocate. And she would ask me, So, what makes you believe that non-duality is better than any other religion or philosophical system, or any other way of thinking? I say, absolutely nothing. If you take it as another philosophy, it's worth as little as any other philosophy.

It doesn't matter. What non-duality is, really, is investigating the truth in the absence of belief. So, it is about questioning belief. If you believe the world is real, question it. If you believe the world is unreal, question it. If you believe that Jesus would do anything else, question it. And the way of questioning is, basically, stop the thought for a moment. And see what's true without the belief. Because thought is a belief. Going into the head and acquiring mental concept, image, or a belief, and buying into it, sending that life essence or energy into that mental crop, and being a fanatical believer, is the bondage.

This is the bondage. There is life going on underneath the overlay of beliefs. This life, pure, effortless, natural living going on. Digesting going on. Hearing, seeing, tasting, thinking going on. And now, the little part, habitual part of this life stream goes to the beliefs. Beliefs that, whatever, Buddhism is better than Christianity or anything else. Philosophical beliefs, or social beliefs, political beliefs. They're no different. When I go to my head and I believe, I follow any line of thinking, any wise teachers, gurus, or sages, or seers, I'm a fanatical believer. I'm basically just sitting in my head and I'm a believer. So I'm no different than whoever, the guys who are doing a suicide bombing.

I may believe in fixing the world or whatever, but this is still buying into thoughts. So the way out of any belief systems, including the most flashy and the most beautiful ones, is to pause the thought and really find out for ourselves what's real. You know there are some seeds which they open in fire? Yeah. And I'm just thinking that this is kind of like a seed which opens in the quiet of mind. That's right. When the mind is not, it's a seed that opens them. Yes. Yes. Oh, gosh. I wish I had you saying it. The larger, broader. Yeah, that's it. That's it. The mind is a wonderful trick of the dream.

Because the mind made it possible actually to acknowledge the appearance the way it is. As I said before, you wouldn't even recognize anything here if it wasn't governed by the memory, if it wasn't governed by the mind, if it wasn't related to past experiences. The way we see the world, the way the world sees itself, the eye which is life looks at itself and acknowledges itself, wouldn't be possible with that device. So basically the intelligence or the emptiness gave itself this projector, this transmitter, receiver and it basically carries the world within itself. So it is to be acknowledged. It is to be appreciated. But yes, it can only be recognized when you wake up from that stream of projection.

When you stop that stream of projection, that believing going on, that mental noise going on, only then you can actually see what's real. In the absence of the mind. Which doesn't mean the mind will be absent. It will be just parked aside, just for that one brief moment in which you realize that without the thought, without the mind, everything happens as it does. The heartbeat happens. The dream is still sustained. The hair are growing. Everything is... And the one undeniable thing, the certainty of existence. Even to say there is no existence because this existence is illusion. But even to say there is no existence because everything is illusion, there is the certainty of being in which that statement can be said.

I was just thinking about... I probably don't want to be very clear. Oh, okay. That's fine. That's fine. Instincts. Yeah. What made me think about it was when you said if you believe that your mother should love you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yet as an infant, the instinct is to look for that love. Sure. Mm-hmm. It's not a thought as such, but it's a... I wonder what, you know, I'm just thinking out aloud here, I wonder what that is. There is an instinct to seek. It's not so much a thought. To start with, yes. The thought is only possible when you learn words. The little baby doesn't have any words, so it can't use thinking, it can't use memory.

It doesn't have the storage capacity developed yet in the brain. Yeah. So it works, it lives instinctually. It instinctually needs air to breathe, and it knows how to breathe. It needs to feed, it finds the breast, it doesn't learn how to suckle on the breast. It instinctively knows it. It is looking for the warmth also. The nature has that innate intelligence within it. Like, the tree doesn't really have the thought to know which way to put the branches out to the sun, and when there is electric cords there, it will avoid it, it will move out. Because this, that's why Bob calls that cognizing emptiness, or that presence of awareness, he calls it intelligence energy.

Because it is suffused with the intelligence. If you look around, everything is, it has its innate knowing. Like, your blood cells, they have innate knowing what to do within the body. They're intelligent. Like, your body comes from the sperm and autumn that connected the met, and they created fetus, they started dividing. They were suffused with that intelligence. Even the little microscopic particles, they knew what to do, how to function. That innate knowing is there. Yes, you can call it instinct. Everything has that instinct. But once we learn how to reason, at the age of whatever, eight months, you may learn first words, and you may distinguish separate first objects, recognize them out of the background, and make them permanent, kind of showing, coming and going.

Before that, you have just a stream of sensations happening to no one, because you don't even conceive of the separation, because you don't have words. But if you have, when you have enough words, around the age two, two and a half, the reasoning, the computing starts, and soon after it stills the show. Soon after everything is translated, and the moment things are labeled, this one is also labeled. So those are things that are seen, and this is the seer. So now, I am, as a seer, and separated from the world that I'm seeing. So basically, my interaction with the world is me versus the world.

So I'm insecure, I'm vulnerable. I'm a little insignificant part of it. Well, not even part, I'm actually separate. So this is where the stress starts. This is where insecurity starts. And what usually happens, the mind, when you are smart enough, you find a way out of this insecurity. Because mind, you actually go to the thinking to avoid different traumatic events. Well, this is basically how it happens. This is, and I like to joke about it, that if it happened any other way, awakening wouldn't be the case, wouldn't be possible. So to get locked in that cage of concepts, when you define yourself as me, and this as the world, and then you kind of add to the me, I'm the body, I'm the mind, I'm smart, or I'm stupid, I'm unworthy, or whatever.

You build up that sense of identity, and you constantly believe it. And everyone around you also believes it. So it gets a lot of that belief, a lot of that life essence, or that electricity powering it. So it becomes solid. It becomes this ego, this reference point, becomes so solid, that you could question about everything else, but this feels so real. It's, I am, I feel I am. I'm here, I can be here, for sure. But really, the sense of location is just a passing phenomena in the field of emptiness, of cognizing emptiness. And without the reference point in the, in a cage of concept that I'm the body, I'm the woman, I'm whatever, the life happens naturally as it does, without any, any identification needed.

And of course, it doesn't mean that I will go to the, to the shop and I will buy trousers, because I don't know that the body is female anymore. No, it's, it goes into autopilot. It's not, there was never a person here. Now I know it. Three years ago, I had no clue. But there was, even then, when I believed there was a person, there wasn't. It was just a belief. It's just like we believe in whatever, some people believe in aliens, or angels, and they exist for them. Just like people believed a few hundred years ago that the earth was flat. And, yeah, beliefs are all the same, you know.

They just, they, they just unquestioned acceptance of something in the absence of reason. They're just, phantoms. And ultimately, the whole appearance is an idea in the mind of the absolute. Fueled by that life, that belief. And you, by looking at it, and believing it real, sustain it. That's the game. And as far as I know and Bob knows, awakening from the dream is probably only possible when the body is dead. But you can awaken to the dream. You can recognize dream for what it is. And live from that certainty. The entity or individual here, if it is and is still, is a dream. And the world outside of it, that's also a dream.

It is just waving ocean, passing phenomena. And it is to be appreciated. So, awakening to the dream is an invitation. When you wake up from the idea of being separate self in a cage of, of unworthiness. So, when this cage drops off, you basically just live effortless living, effortless life. And the body knows what to do. The body knows when it needs food or toilet. If the things or bills or whatever needs paying, the thought will appear just as it always did. It's just that I didn't think that thought. Whilst few years ago, I thought I thought that thought. Thoughts have always been just popping up.

Just like sounds, they're popping up. It's not that I heard that car. There was no action, like me doing an action of hearing. It is spontaneous. So, the effortless living is once you recognize that idea of separate entity here is a fiction. And you wake up from this idea. The dream is still there. But nobody is dreaming it anymore. Dream dreams itself and it recognizes itself and it enjoys itself. Because now, nothing's personal. There is no self obsession going on. I don't care what people think about me. I don't really give much thoughts to me. And because of absence of that thoughts, I can serve people much better.

And I found myself, I had a fantastic job for most of my life, where I was serving myself. Right now, I'm working serving other people. And I'm going there completely selfless. And they love it. And I love it too. Because there is no concern or judgment going on of what is being done. It's just pure spontaneous functioning. Pure effortless living. And yeah, that's the invitation. That's the idea of suffering free life. It doesn't mean the life free of pain. Because of course, pain may happen. I mean, you know, we're getting older. Bob had a hip replacement because he couldn't stand the pain anymore. The pain happens.

But if there is no resistance to pain. If there is no, oh, why me? Oh, it shouldn't have happened to me. Then pain is just the way it cuts and do pain. They sit down in quiet and let the body heal it. So that's the non-duality. There is no gain in it. It's not a me that is going to gain great enlightenment. It's quite the opposite. It's the great loss. I'm going to lose the sense of me, separate me. And when I realize that here is really nothing. It's just that empty cognizing space. Then I'm going to realize that everything else is also nothing. And the enlightenment idea is also nothing.

That's just an empty concept. That's just an image. So there is really just nothing waving itself into this magnificent presentation here. Thank you. for its own entertainment for the expression for the aliveness of it so there is no me to get enlightened anymore there is no state that state beyond the mind the state beyond the mind is always ever present there constantly mind or stream of thinking is just another appearance the whole mind with all the thoughts is appearing in it just like the sounds are appearing in it but this totality the nothingness of it the emptiness of it is my true nature and it's the true nature of everything the true nature of yours of the carpet of the of the walls of everything I suppose it's like the unavailability of the labelling because you know just the labelling is not turning up the labels aren't turning up so you're just sitting there with what's left when nothing's turning up well I had a wee spits moment of one today but I was kind of there was um like came up there's something that it was missing like where am I came up and then it's oh I'm in Australia came up just after but for a moment that thought of which country am I sitting in wasn't available but there was a kind of what wasn't there there was like what wasn't there before it came it was like there was it wasn't like a looking for it but there was a there was a weird gap where it was knowing that something was missing in particular and then it turned up you know it was kind of weird because you know you're not searching for it there's no sense of searching for it it's just a weird gap and then something turns up and it's like oh it's a nice weird gap there and it's kind of juicy it just makes you see that and just awareness pure just awareness without the labelling oh I suspect at the time I wasn't like you know when nothing's going on I think there was other shit going on but it was just that oh no maybe not because at that particular time there was one particular aspect not available so there really was probably a weird gap yeah I just appreciate the gaps yeah Tony would you like to add something on appreciating the gaps you had a good comment on that last time please oh I'll just point out some flaws if that's alright oh absolutely nicely oh you could teach still for me is required and I'll just try to make them as points I mean I don't really agree with anything fantastic fantastic it's not about agreeing if you agree with anything that's worth nothing no it's about walking the walk it just doesn't line up with the Buddhist model at all but it's fine fantastic yes and there's nothing you know there's a liberating aspect and everything yes this is not the common acceptance group when we agreed on concepts this is not about concepts see just a couple of things sort of like pausing a thought yeah no no see like and there is a liberating aspect that in just stopping and stillness or whatever it is yeah but you see if all required was just pause a thought if all you've got to do is pause a thought and you're enlightened well we know from an actual fact that that's not the case well it is even without pausing so you know and even without pausing the idea that you know sort of thinking or thoughts or conceptual thinking dualistic thinking thinking that is the entire crux and you know the cause of all our suffering you know yeah well no what is it then no what is it that's one aspect yeah again all you have to do is stop conceptual thinking and you're being totally enlightened well it's not the case no you can't stop it there are other factors behind it and there are habitual patterns of grasping and so on that are operating even once you're pausing a thought even once you're in non-conceptual thinking and so on these other hidden things will continue to be there and we think that we've actually discovered the ultimate another thing doing you know doing you know we try not to be doing things or in action well again you know doing things isn't you know isn't going to cause us unenlightenment and not doing not doing isn't going to create enlightenment we don't have saying whether we do or we don't it happens doing or not doing happens well you can't choose whether you do or you don't well you see everything comes about the things that whatever is manifesting or taking place is just when the underlying causes and conditions come together yes and then that whatever will take place yes those underlying causes and conditions which we which you have to you have to go into the Buddhist model to understand all this well the Buddhist has got one way of categorizing yeah they're just words yeah yeah well they're you know i mean i i i favor the Buddhist model yeah you're talking about cultivating you're talking about through practice well it's i'm i'm a middle way person i don't know if you know the middle way uh it's it's not it's it's quite um but you're talking about certain things that certain things are lining that's what you just said that there are certain conditions preconditions that when they when they happen to align yeah then something something takes place yeah and that the practice the practices the practice of maybe meditating or or um mindful mindful working mindful living cultivates the type of conditions that cultivates the prerequisites that might manifest as the preconditions for an awakening is that what you're saying yeah well definitely you'll become we will become aware of these causes and conditions these underlying unseen and basically they're grasping it's it's it'll be the chief thing grasping at appearances grasping at things as having validity and so on for me like appearing um things pop up and appear without grasping quite often and then they disappear because as a witness that's that i don't know they just they appear i can't say there's a witness or any of that shit they appear and they go quite often not always sometimes they just seem to something's gone and i know it's something's different um mostly for me it does appear and there's definitely no grasping because i know grasping and i know when there's no grasping seems like a point of agreement though that um that grasping is an interference yeah so it seems that are things that are because consciousness if i may say doesn't grasp at anything like this conversation is happening and passing through the space of knowing for example so like and all the sounds and all the things and our whole lives have been dancing in that space without being built up or backlog occurring so we're always moving in the now so to speak that's never full it's always full but it's always empty at the same time it's always being filled and being cleared of the previous moment well empty emptiness is a huge key yeah and um and uh so one way i mean every issue if if we seal that with emptiness we'll sort of um we're getting we're sort of getting on track this is from the buddhist point of view so and what's it empty of does anyone tell go on you know inherent existence right meaning making empty of meaning making inherent existence inherent view good yeah i like that you you brought it last time beautiful beautiful yes now you know it's that's what it's you know what it's got to be empty of something yeah and it's empty of it and see objects everything bodies um you know are in there then now we look at them and they these bodies appear to be substantial but when you try and find you know if it's tony there's a couple of them if you try and find you know this tony now you know you know you can look at the aggregates the body you know that that sort of thing and you know um you will never find that tony like is tony the legs is it the head no is on the leg is it the body no yeah that's this is only just an analytical thing to go through it but um anything that we do put a label on cat you know what represents the cat you know is it the tail is the head is it the this that and everything else and you can't find it so things are empty of inherent existence yeah yeah now not knowing that is ignorance yeah yeah and that is suffering and that's the crux of in from the buddhist model is not knowing that things you know or or attributing things to be inherently real there is absolutely nothing that has any inherent existence so about real existence you're really saying labelling the defining description well that's part of it something from the head something from the so called head that we tend to talk about yeah part of it is is is the label i could tell you this tony but it sounds described later to me don't say it don't hurt him don't hurt you yeah see part of the inherent existence can be the grasping at the sense of no self hmm and that's just the same as grasping at a self very good point yeah you know what that's very good point beautiful things you know yes it's not coming up that believes in its well i don't know it's just a way of saying it believes in itself but you know whatever it's a belief happening you won't go anywhere by turning up just a momentary belief turning up i'm picturing two monks arguing one saying one saying i exist and one saying i don't exist and just being not being able to like to meet in the middle see because the fundamental of the buddhist model is and the non-duality of the buddhist model is the transcendence the non-duality is the transcendence of existence and non-existence and non-existence so sort of getting caught that'll be a trap you get caught into you start to see yeah there really isn't a self here yeah but i'll tell you what yeah this this will be a virtually a lifetime because there is a compelling feeling that there is a self here that's doing things yeah i've never heard that every time i look there's been no sense of something to talk about no located middle south but apart from you everybody is i'm not thinking about it and it's just not i've never seen it and so it's not there in every case it depends how the perspective deals it's a good place it doesn't say that 95% of the time i'm not triggered back into loops i'm defensing some sort of thing with maybe one aspect of tony in it but that thing that people talk about i've never seen it this is a good place to come for that questioning to take place what's that yeah this is a good place to come for i've jumped over that i don't need it for an analysis of the validity of the sense of self what's that i've never seen it so i just fuck it it doesn't exist awesome but i'm not talking to you right now yeah yeah you are an exemption but normally average person can actually relate to the sense of it's basically unfindable and anything if you just like if you can't find you know like if you're if you're talking about flower you know you know the same as yourself it'll be the same analysis if you if you try and find what flower is it the redness of it or is it the pebbles is it you know what i mean all you finish up with everything's unfindable the self is unfindable so it's an unfindability and and no more than that you know and eventually that self will start to cease yeah and that unfindability starts to be one's resting place yes you can can rest rest in it's just resting in that um but um um and see there's either ignorance which is attributing things as having been inherently real and we start to see that things are not real then that's the cessation of ignorance and that's awakened so to speak and that's not like you can have these peak experiences and so on but they don't last you know yeah yeah absolutely those underlying little underlying um habitual patterns are there i'll be misinterpreting what you meant by real so i've been taking reality to be what's there with no meaning making analysis whatever inherent intrinsic substantial true but you mean real more when something has to be defined i'm taking the defined as boundlessness as reality yeah so i guess i've just been taking a different term yeah yeah so that's made some of this you know i found it huge just the inherent existence it's been i mean i've only been fiddling around with this for six months so god you know but the inherent that's a nice little diamond that's a beautiful pearl yeah emptiness of inherent existence it's really really precious yeah you'll look the the the the the where it will disguise itself and and the advices i've been really down that one you don't want me to do you i don't care it's coming right out of your message all right no no no no i i i'm not attached to the message it's not my message some things that aren't even realised by others though making them rear when others aren't necessarily if that's a good possibility i can't i can't help myself go on i can't tell you How are you so seriously?

Please, please, please. Do you think anyone can leave it personal? I'm just wondering if we're all talking about the same thing. No, I'm not. It's just different words. Yeah, everyone has heard of the same thing. All the words are just symbols for the same thing. No, no, no. A totally different model. Now, I'll tell you why. You want to know why. I mean, it can be a different model, but it's still describing the same thing. You can't know. It's just a different... See, the truth is you can't know. You can't know what model he is describing, and he can't know what I'm describing, because we're using concepts.

Stop talking and thinking. I could use words and I'll give you a go. Please. We'll see how we go. And I'll start with... We start to come to realise that this sense of a self is not real. And doesn't exist at all. Yeah. Now... And we think... We may even think that we've sort of arrived at some stage. Who arrived? Now, see that's... We've uncovered an inherently existing self to be a phantom. Yeah. Now, some of these other inherently existing things. What about... This inherent existence is very, very tricky. What about intelligence energy? What about this intelligence energy that is circulating the blood and growing hair?

And you've mentioned a whole lot of innate knowing. And all these things. We start to think that they're actually real. You start. No, no, no, no. No, I know. You're gonna... It's attributeless. Yeah, you can have it all attributeless and no thing. Tony. You can have all that. Tony. Tony. No, I won't. I know everyone's done it. I did it. Tony. Anyway. Tony. Yeah, okay. You're probably gonna... Said my thing. You're probably gonna take offense to this. Oh. You probably will. Undoubtedly. Yeah. Not fully. You're full of shit. Yeah. Not at all. That's okay. That's okay. You're so... You're so... You are so... Stuck in your intellect.

So incredibly stuck in your intellect. I just wonder... What have you... What have you... Directly experienced or seen... Only a little bit. For yourself. Only a little weeny bit. Then what... Then what are you fucking talking from? If not... If not intellect. A little bit's enough. And it's the same old story. What are you talking from if not intellect? And why are... It's obviously upset you. It's... No, mate. No. No. I won't get into it. It hasn't... That's okay. That's okay. It's not... Mate, what upsets me is you're blind. What upsets me is you've got these blinkers on. I'm not the only one. You've got...

Well, there you go again. You've got these blinkers on and you come here and I've only seen you turn up here twice twice now and it's the same story that you've got going on. You turn up here and you want to challenge everything. Exactly. And you want to challenge everybody. I'd like to have Bob challenge. I did try to challenge him. Why? Why? Why do you... Why turn up here? No, no. Because I haven't found anyone on this other stuff. And that's why I thought, well, there's a bit of a chance to say something here. What a beautiful thing to turn up and to challenge because...

You're not looking at yourself. I'm not listening to you, sorry. That's okay. That's okay. You don't have to. Maybe someone else is. That's okay. But you're not actually looking for yourself. You're not looking. You're not actually taking that... Well, it's clear you're not... Because you're still out there trying to challenge everything and you're even... That's the whole idea of it. If there's a whole lot of... Sure. If there's four, then you're full of them. There are many teaching series. And I can bring them out, but I can only bring them out from, no, I'm not going to talk to you. That's okay. That's okay. But see how you attribute inherent existence to my teaching or Bob's message or anything, and you challenge something that you know has no inherent existence.

If you really knew that, you would drop off the need to challenge. Why you need to be right? Why you need to be right? How do you know? This is why I got it. I'm enjoying it. How do you know? Because I knew I always smelled a rat. How do you know? No, no, that's okay. And it's not just here. It's the whole Advaita message. This is not just... This is Nisargadabha. This is Ramana. And the one who was sort of behind it all was Sankara, around about the 8th century. He was the one. I mean, how many people have looked into it? It's the whole Advaita message.

And it finishes up being... Yeah, anyway... Someone's got to cut you off, mate. Because you've just come here and you're at along with the saints and stuff. It's not very interesting. And number one, it's not interesting. Two, it's not productive. And you're not actually speaking to anybody, like honing in on somebody to help them. Actually, I was talking to you, George. At least I'm charging the risk or I've got the courage to go, Hey, Tony, you're not doing that with anybody. No, George, it's not interesting when you... And flower this stuff around. He actually sold to it. Obviously, it's a different message that I'm presenting.

He's awake. And he is actually trying to be helpful because... Well, Murray, what is the message you have? Hang on, hang on. Don't go there. Sorry. I told you it was a different message. Don't go there. Just look, you know... There you are. There's the... If you're just saying you're fixating on the challenge, sometimes rather than spending that same time, those moments that you talk about, they're the precious moments, and you're worth more of those moments. It's worth for that immediacy to have more of those moments, and maybe that's not appreciated enough in this immediacy that that's so precious, and that's something you get... You deserve all of it.

How can you get worked up? I don't understand how you get worked up. That's okay. It happened before. That's okay. There's always going to be triggers. There's always going to be environment... Please explain to me how you get worked up. This is just the energy that's going on. But you deserve more than worrying about anybody else's mistakes. I'm totally... No, I'm going to be okay with us. And have your own patterns, you know? No, see, I can't listen. Awesome. Not saying it's not okay. Just explain to me. I don't know. That's why I pass it. It's wrong. I have just one thing to say, and that may apply to everyone.

See, the beauty of it is, and Tony, particularly to you, you have a beautiful thing to say, but if you leave that truth, people will come to you, doors and windows. You will not need to go somewhere else and challenge everyone. Just leave it, because you have precious pearls. If you embrace it fully, it will shine out of your eyes. It will shine out of your heart. And you won't need to kick anyone out of the perch. You won't need to be, you know... The beauty of the message is, it doesn't need anyone to be converted. You know, I didn't ask anyone to come here.

Bob never advertised himself. People actually are attracted to what he is. But the message is fine. And what Bob, you know, it's an Advaita message. I'm trying to say where I'm coming from. It's got nothing to do with Advaita. Yes, that's your belief. And we hear you. And we hear you. That's what I'm saying. Yes, your belief is... And I agree. This is an Advaita message. That's true. And you're right. You're not coming from Advaita, and you're also not coming from Buddhist middle way, because you're just coming from... Oh, you don't know the Buddhist middle? Oh, I don't know, Tony. But you're not coming from experience.

You're coming from the books. No, no. You're just... And you're a good scholar. You're an intelligent man. Oh. And you have intelligent descriptions. You don't know the Buddhist. Yes. Oh, what? And we appreciate the honesty. Straight off the internet. Because... Yes. Straight from the internet. But see, here, that group is about walking the walk, not talking the talk. Yes. Get some ideas yourself. And maybe that will be the best thing you've ever done in your life. Really. Really. Just immerse yourself in experience of your teaching, not my or box. Look, I'm not after advice, sorry. No, no, no. Just walk the walk. Just walk the walk.

Just go to where they're pointing more often. That's all that's been said. Your pointers are fantastic. Follow your own pointers, Tony. That will be a wonderful thing to do. You can't do that. Instead of giving them to others, follow them yourselves. I've been given the same advice. Yes. And that's the only... Because ultimately, you're always only speaking to yourself. Just listen. See what you... Hear what you say. It's really good things you're saying. But it comes from here. It doesn't come from here. I love it. I love it. I feel like... She's saying it's not coming from your heart. It's coming from your mind. Oh, no.

Well, you can say that. Even at the point, it's right. You can say that. I don't know. I just met you. I missed out on the whole talk, so... There we are. I have no problem with what you're saying. Because I've sort of checking in here all the time and experience and seeing what's going on while you're talking. And sometimes your point has come through and also gives me just that experience with nothing being made of it. And so that's... You're not putting me off that. You know, you're just like everybody else in this room. They're all pointing back to just letting go after it.

Well, I've read the stuff from the ancient stuff. There's nothing but huge divisions between the, especially say the Buddhist, the one I'm talking about, and the Hindu and Advaita. They're absolutely chalk and cheese. And they just... The Advaita would try, always try to say that the Advaita was the same as the Buddhist message. And the Buddhist won't have a bar of it. Because right behind the Advaita message is inherent, a big factor. But Advaita and Buddhas are concepts. They don't have inherent experiences. Are it self-help? Of course there is. And the Buddha is all over it. Yeah, and there's, what, five or six schools in Advaita too.

I'm not talking about that particular... I read self-help, and the self-help says, you can fix that yourself. And I go, okay, what's the 180 degree of that? Oh, I'm thinking nothing. You know? Look, I don't want to say any more. Just carry on your meeting. No, no, no, Tony. Say more. I mean, actually, I'm grateful for what you pointed. The whole night up. It is a Advaita meter. I don't want to just stuff it around, you know. You do want it. But just be honest. You just don't want to be challenged. You do want to say it. You just don't want to... You want to be the one who challenges.

But you don't want to be the one who gets challenged. Right? Cut off as soon as I... Why? Because you can do it to everyone else. The fabric of the vision. See, but I wanted to address a couple of points that you righteously pointed out. That, of course, you're right. It wasn't the point in posing the thought and you were already enlightened. You were already enlightened even without posing the thought. It's just that you don't know it. So, posing the thought is not a practice. It's not about posing the thought every moment you want to feel enlightened. Posing the thought is enough to be done once.

Because if you do it once, and you do it properly, then you know that functioning is going on with or without the thought. And that's all you need to know. Now, you're not going to be attributing inherent existence or any reality to the thought. Because you see how redundant the thought is for the existence to go on. Now, whether it's a Buddhist thought, or it's Advaitan thought, or it's a Christian thought, or any other thought, they're all empty of inherent existence. And that's really all there is to it. That's why we don't argue about thoughts. Look, I'll just say this. We think that there are thoughts.

We think thoughts are real. We don't think they're empty. We do. And we think one thought follows another. And we think that there is a gap between thoughts. And we think that if we can get into that gap, the pause of thought, that space, something will happen. Speak for yourself. But it's all made up. There are no gaps. There's no pause of thought. There are no thoughts at all. Yeah. Anyway, how is... I don't want to... No, don't please. Just tell me how is it your... No, don't. I'm not going to... How is it your experience? Just continue the meeting. The good thoughts. But how do they sit when you experience them?

No, no. Look, I just... Can you just talk for the rest of this? Just walk the walk, Tony. Because if you really, if you really fully embrace it, your talk, your words will awaken others. Because there is true in what you're saying. But... Not really. I won't awaken others. Yes. There is no thought. There is no gap. That's beautiful words. No thoughts, no gaps. Nothing. But you're only saying it. Can you really hear what you say? Because that's true. You're saying the truth. You can think what... You can have your idea what I'm saying. So that's another projection. That's another belief. That's another belief. I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.

I just repeat your words. There are no thoughts, no gaps, right? This is what you said. Yeah. That's true. You're projecting how it's been... That's true. ...or else, aren't you? You know that because you can't know. No one will know. There's no knowing. So if you feel it... I have about that much understanding. Tony, if you embrace it... And that will take a long time to understand that. If you embrace it, Tony, you will be free forever from needing to challenge anyone. Because you will understand that the thoughts spoken from here also don't have any inherent existence. You will not need to fight for your beliefs.

Because you will... You are happening. You've got some idea I'm fighting for the beliefs and that. Look, leave me out of it. Just get... Don't... Have you... Talk amongst yourselves. Tony, you are a valuable asset in this meeting. Your challenge is welcome. It's just that we are trying to encourage you to actually walk your walk because this is beautiful things you... I don't need it. Why not? Why do you want to stay in the head? Yeah. Why do you want to stay... I'm just... Stay in thoughts. I'm doing my own thing. Okay. I don't need it. Okay. Enjoy it. I'm sorry. Yeah, sure. Sure. No advices.

Yeah. So it's our prediction that you don't get the walk. You do get it. But you also think the side posts have to be really, really, really accurate before the walk happens. Well, the point is what I'm saying is shouldn't be said. And because it's going to cause nothing but controversy. And this is the whole thing. You know, I'm saying these things. I know I shouldn't be saying them. You know, I know I went too well. I knew what was going to happen. It happened. It was even worse last time with you. I knew exactly what was going to go on. Well, you have to...

You're enjoying it. I would prefer to do that rather than fiddling around and having to sit through the laborious talk over and over and just put it out there and just see what happens. To be honest, I love that. I love that fire. I love the energy. It's beautiful. I think it's much, much less... No, no, but... It's good. You know, you have to scrutinise. You know, like the whole... I don't have to defend anything. It's not just false. The whole message, it needs to be completely scrutinised. Go for it. We're accepting these things as though there are all these things that we think are actually real.

We don't even know we're attributing them. You are absolutely right. But you shouldn't say we. You should say I. Yeah. Because you don't know what's going on. That would be more honest. You know you don't know. That would be honest. That's actually what I love about Advaita is, at least from what I've been taught when I was, like when people were teaching it to me, okay, is that don't believe anything you hear. Check it all out. Don't believe a word. Don't believe a should take 99 lifetimes. That's a should. Don't believe as a belief. But does this question bring us back to a meaningful place if I ask you...

I scrutinise everything and then I rejoin with who's doing the scrutinising. Does that take us anywhere? Yeah. You see, everything, it's just a conventional self that's scrutinising. It's a conventional self that's here. Now, does a conventional self, does that really exist? No. But you see, just so we can function normally, somewhat normally here, we're all just conventional selves here. That's really our... Does a conventional self have any inherent existence? No. But it enables us, you know, and it enables us just to function normally and rather than getting into, well, who's scrutinising? You know, you'll get all this stuff. Who, you know, I'll be, I get charged with that question.

Who wants to know? Who's getting upset? Who's trying to this and that? Now, and I will put it back on someone, you know, someone, because I get flogged with that question. And my question then is, well, who is it that asks that question? It's the same thing. You know, that who's... You are the winner! And you tell me the answer to that. It's just bubbling out. The winner in this question. It's just bubbling out. The answer to that question. Can someone tell me the answer to that one? It's just bubbling out. Who is it? Do you want to hear it? Who wants the answer? It just bubbles out with that sense of who.

If there's no attachment in that moment to a sense of who, it just, it just bubbles out. Have you had that experience? Well, to me, who is it that's talking? A conventional self. Who was it that got up this morning and had terrible eggs? Awful sausages I had with them. And it's what we call a conventional self. What's the ultimate nature of that conventional self? That it's empty of anything in here. If you want a court, but then we'll go in, oh, that's duality. You've got now, you've got a conventional and then you've got an ultimate or something or other. But I see that as completely in harmony with the message here.

Yeah, you call it completely the same, identical. Yeah. And prior to all that, Tony, have you had the experience of just that moment of just waking and then the download happens before any conventional self turns up? Have you actually had, I mean, I've had a long time, not recently. So I'm only speaking from a distant memory. But I know that it can happen if you have that one. Because that's a pretty cool one. Because it really does exist. And you know, there's just nothing downloaded yet. And it's, this is a real, the memory just after, nothing was being made of anything. It was a real memory.

I'm just thinking about the words of attachment, intellectualization, theorizing. I mean, all these, all these are the things that cause so much difference. It's all right. It's all right. Whereas underlying all of that is this awareness and reality. Thank you. Yes. And this is a demonstration of it, wonderful demonstration of the fruitlessness of thinking. There's no awareness. There's no, there's no true, we have an inherent awareness. There's a substratum that's there behind everything. I'm with you on that one. I just, but I don't know that. It's a real big one. I've experienced without, with no eye, no censorship, without. That's what Bob. It's been experienced plenty of times.

That's what Bob would call intelligence energy. That's what Bob would call intelligence energy. That's what Bob would call intelligence energy. That's what Bob would call intelligence energy. But your signpost someone's given that. I mean, you're better off this job calling it anything. I'm not aware of it, so I'll get today called the blank screen. It's perceived to be real. As though there is. Yeah, we use words, we use words, we use words to describe the truth. But we still attribute something as having reality. As though there is a substratum, a universal consciousness, an intelligent energy. I want to get that, and I don't need that.

And there is a point. I don't use that. Never has been. Yeah. See, that's how tricky this inherent existence gets. Now this destroys the whole, in a way, it puts the whole Avada message under threat. But there's nothing wrong. There's a lot of liberating. I'm not here to knock anything because the, you know, the liberating thing. Avada has a lot of liberating facts to it. But if you just want to go deeper and look into it a little bit more, then I'm just bringing out that aspect. And that just differs from the Buddhist path. Because the Buddhist path shuns existence, any form of inherent existence completely, including intelligence energy, a universal consciousness, and behind it all is Brahman, who truly exists.

And that's where... Anybody seen it? Yeah. Of course not. Of course not. But that's what's behind, and it comes out in the Avada message. Intelligence energy is the same as Brahman. It doesn't matter what name. It's a possible... It's a label. It's a label. I'm getting into arguments again. No, but is it possible that... You assume things. You are assuming. You see, they do in this, in the field of death. They do in the same thing. They do in the same thing. I think that's why people call the brain as well. Watch your head. All right.