Non duality spiel and discussion - Bob's Sailor Kat

That wasn't recorded, because, yeah, it just... Start again? No! Wait a moment! Thank you! Yeah, so it is all basically about nothing, about... It doesn't matter that you missed something. No, no, it doesn't, it doesn't, yes. So it's basically about bringing everything back to the nothing. Because if, as they say, the true nature of everything is nothing, then we can investigate everything and find its true nature falling back to the nothing. And see how even the concept of things being permanent, they came up as the result of conditioning. As when, as children, we were actually looking at things and learning things, memorizing things, filing those little memories and relating to the past to make things permanent.

Because nothing is permanent. That glass was here yesterday, that was a different glass. The atoms have changed in it. So it's fresh and new. But I'm seeing the past in it, because of the... Because the way the operational system, the algorithm works. And that's brilliant. Otherwise, you know, it's a gorgeous game to enjoy. It's like, look at the reality. This is all Maya. It doesn't, it doesn't have existence apart from the belief that life itself puts into the concepts and labels it put it on the world. And how amazing is that? Like, how incredible is that? We are watching movie that somebody made with special effects and stuff like this.

And we believe it is reality. We put ourselves in it and know, wow, what a dream. Oh, dream. We go to sleep at night and we visit different places. And there are trees growing in the places. When do they start growing? The buildings there, who built those buildings in the dream? They all held by the thought in the mind. Oh, we meet people that I met last night. Half my sister and half my father. I didn't even know what it was. Kind of a vague memory of what was it that I met in my dream. Were they born? Do they exist? What existence does dream have apart from this vague thought patterns?

That vague sort of imagery in the mind. Because it is being believed. It is being held alive. And if there is just one life that gives life to everything. It gives life to every dream. It gives life to every thought. So every thought becomes totally relevant. Becomes beautiful. Becomes alive. Like every thought is a completely new universe. There is that same intelligence of life. The render life. And yeah, what a beauty. Once you disentangle yourself. And stop taking it very seriously. Because when it is very serious. Oh boy. Yeah, I have been there. And now I am speaking to people who are still entangled in the ideas of future.

Ideas of paying the bills. Ideas of getting bored with the same partner for too long. And they are terrifying. They absolutely... And that is seemingly... That is kind of relatively mild suffering. But I had my best friend committing suicide. Because of the line of thinking. Another one is suicidal for a lifetime. Like we know each other. I don't know how many years. But she is just in and out of that. And unfortunately not interested in that stuff. So I can't just go and chalk it down her neck. Because this is a thing that one has to be asked to hear. It is not a thing that you are going to go home and tell to your family.

Yeah, there is no you. It is disrespectful. I mean if you really see everything as the emanation or manifestation of that one reality or one source or one brilliance, intelligence. And then you have couple of kids who are not interested in it. Oh boy. You just see perfection in being not interested in it. That is it. Like I used to chat with my mum 3, 4, 5 years ago. About non-duality. And she lost interest in it. I don't do it anymore. 3 years ago I was still seeking. And 4 years ago I was still digging out. And it was very important to brainstorm. And she was there my friend.

Today I am not seeking. So she doesn't need to give me a space. And because her heart is not in it. Just the subject disappeared and that is perfect. I mean I am really happy for everyone who didn't really have to suffer that much to need to look into it. But they just enjoy the ride. They enjoy the dream. But I am equally happy for those who did suffer enough. And I can't be grateful enough for my own suffering that prompted the investigation. The suffering which I couldn't really stand anymore. And then this instinct that we all have. That sort of a void in the heart telling us that there must be more.

There is something bigger and deeper and greater that can't be just this superficial story about me. It can't be just this self-obsession about what the world thinks about me. Oh boy. And yes there is. But not for the mind. Because the moment we... And that's what usually starts in the beginning of the search. We come with the mind and we listen through the mind. Because for a lifetime we didn't even know there is a possibility of listening in a different manner. Like we are using words. So we use words to... You know mind is a translating device. So because the words are used the other mind is kind of translating the words.

But the truth of the matter is no pointer using words is actually bringing that... Magnificence. Magnificence. Close enough. They are only fingers pointing at the moon. They are not it. Every pointer can be rubbished. And proven to be wrong. Like even the beautiful pointers of Natty Natty in Buddhism have just proven it wrong before I started the... You know like... Okay I am not the body. I am not the mind. Because I am aware of the body. And the body is changing. I am the owner. No. Not that simple. There is no duality. If I am totality I am body also. If I am nothing everything else is also nothing.

But how does it sit with the mind? It doesn't. It doesn't. So really what Bob is offering and because Bob is the one who held my hand through the... Through all that transition dropping off the suffering behind with the persona that I believed myself to be. The offering is to actually see how real that conceptual image that we think that we are is. How real the person is. As we see the body is constantly changing. And there is awareness of the body. The body is a device. The body with its organs. With the organs of perception. Is operated by the algorithm here. By the computing system.

And that one is... You can't even separate those two. Like you can't separate anything really. You can't separate the body from the outside world. Like you are breathing the air. And this air goes back. And you are drinking water. You are eating food. That this body is constantly interacting with whatever is outside of it. It is just a point in consciousness. But it is not separated. But particularly with the mind which is the operation system. It seems like the body is looking and the seeing happens through the body. But we wouldn't make any sense of what we see if we didn't train to recognize things and label with the language.

So it is actually the mind operating perception. If there is something to come up that is out of there. That hasn't been labeled. It is highly likely not going to be perceived. Or it is going to be assumed to be something else. Like we see in the dark room some sort of a shade. And we are guessing. And the guessing goes from the memory. So anyway this whole structure is just a perfect illusion. It is just the way it actually dances for itself. Because if there is only one. If there is only one essence or one life manifesting as everything. Out of joy of being or love of being.

It shows itself to itself as the other. Because being a totality. How can totality know itself? It can't. It will have to seemingly leave the totality to have a glance at it. So basically it is just like the ocean waving different waves. And being aware of different aspects of itself. Because it is the omnipotence. It is the totality. So the fun starts when everything. Because that life is looking through every single pair of eyes. That you are having. It is life. But the maybe idea on top of that life looking at itself. That no, no. It is not life. It is me. And me. I am the person.

I am limited. I am confined. I am in pain. Or whatever. And this is my problem. My story. That is just the line of thinking. That is just the commentary. What is really going on. And this is when Bob says. You are already that. What is really going on. Is the life experiencing itself. Is the space like awareness. Or cognizing emptiness. Assuming different points in consciousness. Just to play. Just to find itself. But to find itself. It seemingly loses itself. It seemingly hides. In the ideas. In the layers of thoughts. I am limited. I am fragile. I was born. I will have to die. That is the play.

How could it ever break through from the cage of concept. If it has never entered the cage of concepts. And breaking through from the cage of concepts. From believing the conceptual thinking. And experiencing reality first hands. Without the overlay of interpretation. It seems to be. It seems to be why it is all happening. I mean gosh. It is an unspeakable relief from something that never works. Because the funny thing is. Once you really see through. And see that the image. The me. The sense of contraction. That you may believe that you are. With the emotional component of it. Like I am not good enough. I am not.

You know. It is. Or I am. You know. Judgments about the body. Or mind. Or experiences. Or successes. Or spiritual successes. How many Zen monasteries. Or whatever. All that story. Is just a line of thinking. Is just the commentary. Is. And it is just the veil. Over the. Experiencing life. First hand. Without filtering it. Through. The interpretation. And that is very possible. And the way. The way. Bob invites people. To see how it is possible. Is again. Bring back. Bring everything to nothing. So. See. The true nature. Of every passing phenomena. Is to pass. They just. Vibration. They just. Showing up. And disappearing. And because mind.

Interprets it. It feels like. Oh yeah. Okay. Bacterias are showing up. And disappearing. Atoms. But not people. Not pyramids. In Egypt. They long. Long. And then the concept of time. Comes about. And the mind. Stretches. The whole. You know. Like. Where is the thousands. Of years. Where pyramids. Were built. If I don't hold. This concept. In my head. Are they really. Experienced. In this. Immediacy. They're not. So. This. Teaching. Really. Goes with. First hand. Experience. This really. Goes with. Disbelieving. Everything. You were ever. Old. Including. The shit. That comes out. Of my mouth. Or Bob's mouth. Those are all. Concepts. Though. Those are all. To be questioned.

And disbelieved. This is really. About. Disillusionment. Stopping. Believing. Any. Philosophical. Ideas. Or any. Religious. Ideas. Any. Ideas. At all. And just. See. What is true. In. Absence. Of beliefs. First. First hand. Experiencing. What is true. Without. The thought. Where is the past. If I don't think. About it. Where is the. Thousand years. Of evolution. Where I don't think. About it. When I don't think. About it. Where is the future. When I don't think. About it. Do they really. Objectively. Exist. Well. If I say. They do. I'm already. Believing. A thought. So. Whether. What matters. Is this moment. Because. This moment. Is the only moment. When the recognition.

Can happen. And. Only moment. To moment. Like. There are people. Who are. Supposedly. Enlightened. And they teach. This stuff. And then. They completely. Get caught. With. Rubishing. One another. There is no recognition. At that point. So. One could say. Oh. He is not enlightened. Or. She is not enlightened. Well. Enlightenment. Is an absence. Of. He or she. So. It is just. Life. Being caught. In an old pattern. So. Life. Is. Repeating. The patterns. It is just. Like. Personality. Pattern. Is. Gosh. I was actually. Today. With. A guys. Who. Because. From. From. All over the world. They. They. Text. Emails. They. Want. Update. How is. Bob doing.

And one of the guys. Who wrote. Best book. Ever. Written. Bob's. Teachings. Which is going to happen. Soon. As an e-book. And it's going to be very cheap. And very achievable. It is James Braha. Living. Reality. He is. Re-editing. This book. And he is laughing. Because. One of the statements. In the book. They were talking about. Compassion. When Bob is saying. There was. No compassion. In this body. Before I understood. That message. Whatsoever. And James. Got shocked. Like. Oh. My. God. What a transformation. I just had. Couple of funny emails. Exchange. With him. With a lack of compassion. He was a violent guy. He was so violent.

That he was in a fight. And he lost. Most of his teeth. Before the age of 30. And now. You. You wouldn't meet. More delightful. More warm. Open hearted. Compassionate. Guy. Who is constantly. At service. And I'm leaving. In that house. You know. He may have. Warm meal. On the table. And he may be starving. But the phone. On Skype. Is calling. He is there. He's right there. He forgets. About himself. He's helping. Who lost. The way. Who got lost. And. Is. Gorgeous. Is. Such a delight. Is. Pure. Heart. Pure. Compassion. And as he said. To James. Fifteen years ago. There was no compassion. Before that message.

There was absolute. Self-obsession. There was violence. There was alcoholism. And. And. So this is what it does. People say. Yeah. You know. This. Advaita teachings. Is so nihilistic. You know. You say. Nothing matters. Nothing ever happened. You know. Then you're not gonna help. Anyone. You're not gonna help. Victims. Of holocaust. Nonsense. This is a story. Taste it. For yourself. And. See. If that's true. See. If you're gonna be. Neutral. Or. Detached. From anyone. Who. Who needs help. If you understand. That. There isn't anyone. There's all. Always. Only. You. Yourself. You're looking at. Yourself. And. Everyone. Who is in front of you. Is. The same life.

Expressing. In a different pattern. Why would you wanna hurt them? So. This is also. When Bob is saying. The humanity. The belief. In the personal self. Brought up. The idea. That. I'm vulnerable. I'm insecure. I need to add to myself. Accumulate. I need to be someone. I need to achieve my potential. I need to snatch from others. Go on the war. Rape. All of that. For self gratification. Because. This is me. And I want more. And I want it better. I will steal. Rape. Kill. Whatever. Because. Of self gratification. What if there isn't. Any personal self? What desires. Are you gonna have? What sort of a.

Idea. The world. Should change. Or is different. Or is wrong. The way it is. Or somebody else is wrong. It always comes from. Referring. Or relating. To oneself. To have the opinion. That somebody is wrong. Or do something. Does something wrong. I would have to believe. That. This is right. This set of values. Or beliefs. Is right. And life. Is wrong. God. Is wrong. So this is. Crazy way to be. And it doesn't mean. That people. Who actually. See through. The absence. Of personal self. Doesn't mean. That these people. Won't. Improve the world. Create. Wonderful music. Or do paintings. Or help. Help. Seekers. Or anything.

Like that. Because. The truth. Is. Whether you. Think. You have. Personal self. Or you don't. The reality. Is. You don't. You think. You're an ego. You have an ego. You are a person. But that's a myth. That's a belief. That's just a belief. So if someone. Is a good guitar player. Believing. Their personal self. And then. They see. The reality. And there is no. Personal self. They're not going to be. Any worse. Guitar players. Everything. Is. Just. As it was. Apart from. The self gratification. Suffering. Suffering. Crap. That drops off. And it doesn't drop. Immediately. Also. Bob. Was pretty violent. Quite a few years. After he hung out.

With me. Sargadatta. He wasn't. Pulling any teeth. From anybody else's. Faces. Anymore. But yeah. He could be a little bit. Rough still. So. I think. Maybe. Maybe. You tell me. Now. What you want. How does it sit with you. What is the most. Outrageous. And the most. Disagreeable. Debate me. Prove me wrong. Or tell me. Maybe. There is something. That you actually. Do resonate. Or something. Because this is really. About resonance. It is really. Not about the words. That are spoken. But about. Something responding. In the core. Of your essence. Yeah. It's something. Yeah. Your true nature knows. Tell me. Um. Kat. You've said something.

Um. Along the lines. Of the. Um. Operates. Perception. Something like that. Yeah. Can you. Elaborate a little bit more. About that. Yeah. Sure. If you look. The way. You learn. What the objects. Are. And then you know. What they are. You know. This is a glass. So now. Every time. You see the glass. You know. Everything about it. And your perception. And your mind. Are cooperating. The inseparable. I can tell you. Something. In a. Slightly different way. Which is. It shouldn't probably. Be discussed in the meetings. Like this. But anyway. It may be helpful. Because we don't remember. How it was to be a baby.

Uh. When we didn't really. Have the perception. Going on for. Uh. When we didn't. Really differentiate. Things. Before we learn words. We didn't differentiate. Just yet. Before we learn. To distinguish mother. From the. Background. She appears. Uh. There is a power plant. That is legal. In many. Many countries. In the world. It's called. Salvia Divinorum. When you smoke. The extract. Of that plant. It basically. Deselects. Certain networks. Of your brain. Of course. The body is functioning. Perfectly well. But for a couple of minutes. You unlearn. Your vocabulary. So. What happens then. You basically. Just rest back. In a pure. Awareness. Of presence. Of being. And the things.

That you are looking at. Because you have no labels. You can't even. Differentiate it. You're looking at your. At your hand. And the hand. And the background. Of the hand. There is no sense. Of space. The learning. That happened. Through. Conditioning. Of the mind. Is temporarily. Switched off. So nothing. Makes sense. Anymore. So language. Defines. Yes. It interprets. The picture. It's almost. As if. You have. The raw picture. That you sent. To the camera. To the computer. And computer. Makes sense. Of the picture. And presents it. In the way. That is. That is. You know. It decodes it. To zero one. Or whatever. Does that mean.

Where. Like I'm looking at you. But I had no. If I smoked that. Joint. Yes. You wouldn't see me. Right. Or you. I'd just see colors. Or something. Whatever. I wouldn't see you. As I see you there. Yeah. No. No. It slowly. It slowly fades. Any idea. Of shape. Form. And pattern. Slowly fades. And suddenly. You don't recognize. Anything. At all. The only thing. That. You are aware. Of. Is the fact. That you exist. But it's not. A conceptual knowing. So. And that's the same. With hearing. And taste. And touch. And smell. Mm-hmm. It's like this. See. Can you hear the sounds. Outside the room.

Yes. You know what they are. Don't you. Yeah. Without even thinking. That's how. It is. How senses. Are completely operated. By the. By the computer. By the memory. To get in there. Somehow. To say. Subconsciously. About the car. Or to. Yeah. Define it. Yes. Yes. But still. Even. Even though. You hear the sounds. Even without. Going to the logic. And trying to. Work out. What type of a car. You have the vague ideas. Of the sounds. So it's. The same as. I think. I've heard the story. And. When. European settlers. Were coming here. Some. Aboriginal people. Couldn't see. The ships. Out of shore. Because they had.

No reference for that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's exactly. The same. Yes. You've got a trained perception. I remember. It was a good quote. From Yisargadatta. About it. How the perception. Has to really be trained. To. To serve the purpose. I don't. I don't. Have it right now. So everything really is thought. Yes. Yes. Precisely. Everything is thought. And you could say. The thought is believed. And see what happens. You think a thought. You think the thought world. And now. You have the picture. Seeing or hearing our thoughts. Yes. Yes. I mean. The senses are still there. You're still seeing a shape. And colours. And everything.

But. You add on. Understanding to it. You know. What it is. Identifying. If you like. So. What you can just see. I can see a shape there. But. You add meaning to it. As in the perception. So there's seeing. And then there's perceiving seeing. But even before you have these. I can sort of. I guess. The shapes would be. Quite different. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So basically. The whole. Perceived reality. Is the reality. Interpreted. By the mind. And it's really. Interpreted. And projected. At the same time. Because the meaning. That you project. On reality. You also. Out of your eyes. This life shines. And this very life.

Which we can call. Attention. Or we can call it. Intelligence. Energy. Like Bob's calls it. Or cognizing emptiness. Or awareness of presence. This very light. Shining out of your eyes. It actually. Holds the reality. It holds it. Because the moment. You shut your eyes. Everything. Disappears. You open the eyes. It appears. Again. What about. Babies. Or animals. If I. I like that story. About. The aborigines. Not being able to see. Yachts. Because they. Couldn't perceive it. Does that mean. That babies. Or. Animals. Wouldn't see. Yachts either. No. They'd see the shape. Surely. But they wouldn't know. What it was. They wouldn't interpret it. As a Yachts.

No. But they can see it. Yeah. According to science. The babies. Like. Up to two weeks. They can't actually see. They see. Reverse pictures. Of just. Glary. Unfocused. Sort of. Like. Colors. And I think. Babies. Are sort of. In the non duality. They don't see a separation. Between themselves. Or mother. So we try to go back there. That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that's. That's. Science also says. Depending on. The animal. Or the. Specie. Whatever. Like. Very very small animals. Will see. The world differently. Because they're. It's. Designed that way. So their. Brain will see it differently. Totally. Think of blind people. How they. How different experience of the world they have.

They kind of learn to see with the fingers. And with the. Shades. They. The other senses are expanded. Yes. So this private universe. That is completely different to the one. You experience. The body's born into. Mesmerism. Mortal hypnotism. Yeah. The body's born into. The information. That the. Carers give. Is hypnotism. Oh right. They don't know it. Yeah. And it's mortal hypnotism. Yeah. That's. That's. That's. When we. When we. Look. Because again. To look at the non-duality. And use the operational system of the mind. Which is time. We have to go into paradoxes. On one hand. You are born as a real victim into the society.

That is conditioning you. That you are a person. And you have no way to sneak out. On the other hand. Maybe. That. Moment of being a baby. Is also a thought. That you are believing right now. Maybe this moment. Is all there ever was. And all that ever happened. And the hypnotist. And the past. Is all part of this moment. Is. Because there is no time. There is eternity. Is only just this. And the time. Is the attempt of the mind. To put things in order. To spread it. And strengthen it. In order. The same as attempt of other senses. Is to place objects in space.

But in reality. How can we communicate. If we don't use that time. And you are right James. Yes. You are kind of born into it. Now you are using a concept of time. For the sake of pointing. Unless you investigate it. You will never know. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Because of each and every one of us. That's right. And it's. And it's very compelling. And boy. For years. It was really entertaining. For me. To listen. To those challenging ideas. Because it was so. Oof. This is fascinating. If I grasp this. My God. This is the ultimate high. This is never going to happen. I. The me.

The mind. No matter how fascinated it is. By the ridiculousness. And absurdity. Of this. Transformational. Crazy. Ideas. It's never ever going to grasp it. One of. One of. The Saga. Dada's quotes was. What is known. Without knowing. Never changes. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's the one thing that we can't deny. And this is the. This is the sad story. When I speak with my dear friends. Who are absolutely. Getting high on non duality. Like I was a few years ago. Listening to different speakers. And getting so much entertainment. Oh gosh. This is the only game in the town. It's fabulous. I want to listen to it forever.

It's going to take you absolutely nowhere. Unless you really walk the walk. And investigate. Yeah. You can get high. It's probably more. Well. At least for you. Because you are here. Entertaining than. And I don't know. Boxing match. Or whatever. Or big brothers show. But still. To treat it as mere entertainment. Oh gosh. It's not exact. It has so much more to offer. It's so much. It's. Walking the walk. When you walk the walk. And you really investigate. And you see. That there isn't really. Anybody's life. And you're free. From all the personal concern. Of fear of future. Regrets of the past. Sense of guilt.

Desires. And every moment. As it shows up. Is pure perfection. It's like. Oof. How brilliant I am. To design this world. This way. And it still appears real. But this. Cannot happen through the mind. And we have a friend. She didn't show up today. But she came for. Bob's birthday. And she's. Really getting high. On non duality. And pushing on her little babies. And. The most. The very. Most. Devastating. And a sad. Truth. That I have to. Repeatedly. Give her. Is that. You gotta fall in love. With nothing. With absolute. Boredom. For the mind. This is dead. This is death. Like. For the mind. Staying.

In that. Plain. Sense of being. Where is. Absolutely. Nothing. Going on. It's just. The abyss. It's the fear of. Oh my god. Maybe I am nothing. Yes you are. You're nothing. And this is the best news ever. This is. This is the most. Relieving. Because that abyss. In that sense of nothingness. Sense of unworthiness. That sits somewhere. Here. Or here. And it feels like. Oh my god. This is just so. I can't even. I have to. Quickly. Quickly. I have to get some food. Or some adventure. Or some. You know. New dress. Whatever. Something. To distract myself. From this. Ugly. Horrible. Sense of void. That ugly.

Horrible. Sense of void. Is the calling. From the heart. This is the gateless gate. Staying in that. In that sense of void. For one second longer. It collapses. It collapses the mind. The worst scenario. Yes. I'm totally nothing. I'm totally unworthy. Yes. And from this. But it has to be done. It can't be just. Listened to. It has to be really. Investigated. To actually. Taste it. To. Find the courage. Because for many people. It is a fearful moment. It was. For me. It wasn't really fearful anymore. Because I was in a point of despair. That I can't. I. There was nothing wrong gonna happen. I was in absolute point of devastation.

So there wasn't anything fearful about dying. Or becoming nothing. It was actually a relief. But for many people. Who have a little bit of a gentle way. To actually look into it. It seems like death. But. Oh. The sense of presence. Is never gonna die. The sense of I am. The being. Is never gonna die. What is gonna die. Is that unworthiness. That sense of being. Being. Contracted. Being separated. Let it die. It's not real anyway. So the way to go about it. Is. To look. And. Bob has a nice. Really nice. Simple way of investigating. Look who is looking. Seeing. Like. We are seeing.

Right now. There is seeing. Going on. But. Is the seeing. Happening. Between. Me. And the object. Is it. Me. That is seeing. Whatever is there. Let's see. It feels this way. Because that's how mind operates. Mind. Divides everything. Into subject. Objects. And it focuses on forms. And overlook the process. Or overlook the emptiness. So now. We have the. Three things. Me. The seeing. The whole capacity of seeing. And the objects. So now. If I remove the me. What happens. Is there any capacity of seeing left. If I'm removed. No. So. If I remove the objects. Is the capacity of seeing there. No. So the seeing.

Is inseparable. From subject object. Is just one seeing. So if that is. If that is just one seeing. I'll have to be that seeing. But now. One could argue. Okay. But you know. The eye is seeing. The. The. The camera is seeing. But is it really? If you take the eye off. And put it on the table. What the capacity does the eye have to see? It doesn't. It's just a device. It's just an instrument. Through which the seeing is happening. Just the same way as with the computer. It's a device through which the information flows. So what is seeing? If it's not the eye that is seeing.

What is seeing? So one could say me. That's me. I am seeing. But what is that me? Is there anything there? Is the eye thought. Or the idea I am. Or the conceptual image that is saying. How old I am. Or where I come from. Or all that nonsense. Is that bundle of ideas. Having any capacity to see? Well easy to find out. Nope. It's not. Idea can't see anything. If the device is covered. So what is really seeing? It's not the eye thought. It's not the device. So there is a space of seeing. But is there anyone. Who is actually doing the seeing? When you get up in the morning.

Do you say. I will start doing the seeing? No. The seeing is totally available. As part of functioning. Nobody does it. So seeing can happen without any doer. How about hearing? Same way. How about digesting? How about growing hair? Same way. Happens without any doer. How about thinking? Is the thinking happening? Is there any doer saying. Okay. I will be thinking about my whatever. My next boyfriend or whatever. How did that happen? How do the thoughts appear? It's just like the seeing is a process. And there are objects in the content of seeing. There is a seeing capacity of space. Of seeing. And there are objects moving through that space of seeing.

When the device goes out of the house. It will see different content. You were. You woke up in the morning. There was different content of that capacity of seeing. So how about thinking? How different is the thinking? So there is a capacity of thinking. And there are thoughts. Objects. Just like objects in seeing. Just like sounds in hearing. So thoughts come up. Just like sounds come up. Is there anybody who is doing any thinking? Can you manufacture the thought in your mind? Is there any device that is throwing thoughts or producing them? Or they just appear like sounds and scenes. The space of thinking and then thoughts appear.

And of course you know for the musicians. There will be thoughts about different music or whatever. Terrorists there will be thoughts about bombing or whatever. They are relevant to the vehicle. But are they really anything else than just the content? So is there any me that is thinking thoughts? Because if that is seen through. That is a huge huge threshold. If I am not thinking my thoughts. If they just appear according to the conditioning of this vehicle. If they just appear in that space. So I am not responsible for anything that will show up. Tomorrow if I have to do an important decision. Whether I go route A or route B.

The thought will appear. And that won't be my thought. I won't be responsible or guilty for any thoughts. The relevant thought will come. Or the wrong thought will come. But it won't be my thought. So I am not a decision maker. I am not choosing my thoughts anymore. So what am I a doer of? What is in my hands? I can't see. I can't think. I can't choose. I can't be aware. What is left? Pure functioning. Nothing. Everything backs to nothing. Pure functioning. Just like babies and animals. Nothing and everything. Totally. Totally. Because when I recognize this is nothing. I recognize this is also nothing.

This is the source. The universe. The beauty of life. The... Oops. We have to sit down. I'm sorry. It's too cold for them. It's too busy streets. They can't go out. So then wouldn't you say it's even beyond non-duality? Because to use the word, the concept of non-duality assumes there's duality. To have that non-duality means there's duality. In order to have that word. Yeah. So it's beyond that. And so... Yeah. Yeah. It's not non-duality. It's not awareness. It's not non-conceptual awareness. It's not intelligence. It's not God. It's none of the words. It's totally... It's even before the words. It's even before the concept of duality and non-duality.

This is the basic screen on which any concept or any belief shows up. But we have to have the word or the form to... Yeah. Words are absolutely magnificent. Wonderful. Think of poetry. Gorgeous. Think of these fabulous models. Psychological models. Oh, they're gorgeous. Think of all the science. Of the physics. Beautiful. This is part of the... Part of the genius of brilliance of the whole appearance. But once you take them for what they are. They're thought forms. They're part of the appearance. They don't... They lose the stink. They're not going to be threatening anymore. They recognize for what they are. They're gorgeous. But they're just thought systems.

They're just words. And using symbolic language, how brilliant is that? That we can discuss Africa, which is not here now. It's beautiful. Yes, it's nothing to... Because some people get the impression that this is about, okay, so we're not going to be thinking, we're going to be zombies or chimpanzees. No. Thinking is going to be utilized as it always was. Like, I thought three years ago I was a person and I was doing my thinking. And now I don't think I'm a person anymore and I'm doing my thinking. Thinking didn't change. It's only one more or one less belief now. It's like, as a child, I believed that Santa Claus was bringing my gifts.

And then I stopped believing that Santa Claus, but gifts were happening just the same. So the world is just happening to us. So what happened then? Did you have any new thought or understanding? I lost the illusion of the separate self. I didn't gain anything. It's really about unlearning. I believed to be something and I was very preoccupied with myself, especially when I was in acute pain. I was really suffering. That was the relationship that was very, very painful. And, yeah, it was for some reason, it was very important and I wouldn't give up. And it was dreadful. It was all about me. And then, as I was, actually I saw Bob one-on-one, which is a wonderful, wonderful way to investigate.

And Bob is going to be out of the hospital and he does this one-on-one. He charges people one-third of normal psychotherapists. Like, I paid $180 to fix my relationship and didn't work per hour. Bob's take 60 as donation. And if someone doesn't have it, they, you know... Anyway, I saw him privately and I was totally in tears. I was totally broken. I was... Ah! And as I was describing, what was the most painful of it? The most painful part of it was that a partner of mine didn't really see me. He saw the conceptual image of me, which was ugly. He saw me to be some smart ass sailor who's just having a good job and lots of money and faking on the tax, which I never did.

But image, that conceptual image, which was breaking my heart because I loved him and I felt that I am not this. I am this. I'm this heart, this vulnerable heart. How can he not see what I am? And as I was showing Bob what I am, I realized, shit, I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this whatever I thought myself to be. It was easy to see what he sees of me. Like, if you think of anyone who likes you or dislikes you, what image do they have of you? What concept do they have of you? Is that really who you are? Totally not.

So how would the concept you have of you be who you are? It can't. But I believed I was the concept of myself. And that was the concept of someone who was fragile and vulnerable and prone to heartbreak and shit like this. That's totally not what I am. It was a little bit nicer than his concept of this sailor who's got money and who is smart ass. I'm not working at CNMR, I don't have any money. But the concept was ugly. And this one was a bit nicer. But they're equally valid. They're equally bullshit. They were both wrong. Were you formally in the name? No, no, no.

I was in constructions. Oh. Yeah. For 17 years. That was a good one. I stopped it when I moved with Bob because that was time. I have different calling now. Who would have known? So you're a builder cat? No, actually I was a navigator. I was ship's officer. Oh, okay. So you were in the... We can call you sailor. We can call you sailor. Yes. Oh, well that's all right. For 17 years I was working as ship's officer. Interesting, isn't it? Yes. Yes. Yeah, fun was light. Funny for incident. Yes. It makes us more kind of light and funny. Silo Bob. Yes. Anyway, this was the real story.

Bob doesn't really usually like stories. I do like stories, even his stories, to use them as an example. Because they kind of, people relate sometimes to the stories more than to dry sort of a teaching. And he is okay, he's forgiving me that, generally. You do your style. I can't, yeah, I can't stop it. It's not something that you can prepare. It just, it just comes up. Can you tell us some stories about Bob? Sure. Bob is going to be 90 in 11 days. He's done well. Are you having a celebration? We do. There was few people that offered that it could be in their houses.

And Bob was kind of, yeah, you know, he doesn't really like too much of a fuss. He's an introvert. And he likes to be at service. He doesn't like to be a star. Although he does understand that the celebration of him. There's so many people who are so grateful for ever stumbling upon him in their life. The party is going to more giving them opportunity to express the gratitude and to celebrate him. So it's more for people than for him. So today he kind of started opening up because Judy was, the girl from Roville was here in a hospital with me. And she was talking him into the party at her home rather than just lunch in the restaurant.

So there is a hope because he was kind of cutting down every idea. I was thinking that people could come here. But he says, no, you know, it's not that many people can see it. And it's not comfortable. And I can't sneak out. He's 90. So he needs a nap. He's not going like all day chatting and happy. He, he, elderly people, they have less reserves of the energy. Just like old car, you have to be a little bit more gentle. You have to drive a little slower because it may fall apart. So he is trading a bit slower and he needs knobs. He needs a lot of silence.

He needs a lot of peace. So the party, the idea of the party of hanging out for a whole day, it was kind of threatening. He understands that, yes, that is probably going to happen one way or the other. Whether he says this or the other, but yeah, now today he was a little bit open, but this is going to be Saturday. So Sunday is the meeting. So after Sunday meeting, as usually, we're going to go for lunch. So we're going to tell Sophia restaurant, which is close by and is warm to just keep one room separate. If it's more than a few of us, then we can just hang around there.

And day before, I'll put it on Facebook or somewhere. If somebody wants to come, Judith is happy to open her house and just welcome anyone. Yeah. So that's the story for now. It may change because as every story is, you know, the problem with future, the problem with projections, things are always going to be different. They're always going to be spontaneous. So this is the plan and we are totally not attached to whether it is going to happen this way or it's not. Yeah. Is Bob in contact with any of the people he used to find? Actually, there is one guy, his name is Brian.

And I think they were shearing together. So they were shearing and drinking. So that must have been good 70 years ago. He's having some kidney problems. So they call each other on the phone. It's a beautiful, beautiful, warm connection, loving connection, which probably haven't been available back then. They probably gave each other a couple of jabs in line. Over the phone could be, yeah. Can I ask just to clarify and know what non-duality's news are on meditation and practice? Should we go through that again? Sure. Sure. So what Bob is offering, and this is really uncompromising, you don't have to practice to become who you already are.

You can recognize right at this moment. Right at this moment, if you recognize you are, you exist. You have the knowing of your being. You know that you are. It doesn't matter what you are, if you're a girl or boy. It doesn't matter. You know, can you sense it that you are, the presence? Yes. So this is it. That sense of presence. This is it. There's nothing more to it. Only on top of it, there is a stream of thinking, ideas. No, no, no. I'm not there yet. I have to meditate. I have to practice. This is just a stream of thinking. You already are fully present.

Now, whether the meditation is helpful or not, it's a different story. Bob doesn't recommend any practices, because practice assumes that you need some more time to become what you already are, which is not true. He says, no, this is instantaneous. Just see it right now. And now. And now. And now. And that's enough. But the truth is, if the mind is really loud and really, really persistent and really noisy, it seems to be, it seems to be helpful from hindsight. Like Bob's, Bob's been meditating and practicing different sort of practices for 16 years, which made his mind kind of single pointed, a little bit more easy to recognize this stream of thinking, this pattern, whether it helped or it didn't, that's how it happened.

I did meditate also. I did different sorts of practices too. Whether it helped, I don't know. This is how it happened. But we know about people who didn't meditate. Like even, even the people who are pretty famous, like Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, it just, they just, they just. It can happen over the, you know, beer in the, in the cafe. It's recognition. That recognition is available regardless of what you do, where you go. Mindfulness, of course. Learning skills. Learning to be more aware of the presence or whatever. Or learning new language or learning how to drive the car. Learning to sit in lotus. It's nothing wrong.

If you meditate because, because you kind of enjoy the silence. Or you meditate because you want to have your concentration better. Or you meditate because the awareness goes back to the body and there is a healing going on when the awareness rests of itself. There's a lot of meditate, it's a lot of benefits by products of meditation. It's nothing wrong. It's nothing that one should avoid if, if there is a natural, like if you're drawn to it. Right. Yeah. So just like eating well, eating healthy. Totally. Totally. But it is not a prerequisite of recognition because you already know that you are. It's just that it doesn't seem compelling.

Right now, knowing that I am yes or what. Come on. It seems quite ordinary. Exactly. It is ordinary. It's very, very ordinary. Most books I've read talk about it in a very extraordinary way. Yeah. That's it. Yes. And that gets, becomes a concept in my mind which is like a barrier. Yeah. And that's what's the problem also with different guru hopping, with different listening to something. thinking, you know, oh, let's listen to this one. Oh, I've heard this one before. Let's get something new, something exciting. Listen to new guru or new talk on YouTube or put that at the gas pump. And people get high on all that different speakers because they still want to entertain the mind.

Because the ordinary awareness is not compelling, it's boring. It will always be boring for the mind. The moment when you realize that the mind is just a stream of thinking. There is no validity or importance. The mind is just a tool. It's just a computer. You don't need to be identified with it. And you start realizing that this mind you are aware of. You see the persistent thought comes. Oh, what am I going to do about my debts? Yeah, that's just a thought. And it comes back. See how long it is going to last. Because life always resolves itself. It doesn't mean it's going to be better.

It might be worse. Because everything is changing. It might change to worse. Has your vision changed? Like, you know, before we start talking about thoughts create the image, so to speak? No, it's really just the understanding. And the understanding, the way understanding shows itself up is kind of sneaking behind the mind. It's like a realization, like an insight. And it's always fresh and new. It's like we sometimes sit with Bob and he likes all this ancient text, like Raegu Gita and some stuff that has been for thousands of years. Because he kind of finds a special joy with the fact that that's not his invention.

That's something that has been there forever. And we trip up on that little sentence and he says, see, oh my gosh, that's yet another angle. Yet another angle. It shows itself to itself on thousands of different ways. And it never stops. He's got this for 40 plus years and those little insights show up all the time ever fresh. But if you put them to words, there may be nothing in the words. There may be, you know, like if you try to flatten it, it's like you try kind of grasp something 3D into the flat picture. That's what the mind does. So it is understanding, but it's understanding from beyond concepts.

So it is ever fresh and it changes everything. But if you focus on just the way the brain interprets the appearance, no, not really, not really. I mean, you know, you see something that doesn't exist and it looks so real and you love it because you understand that this is not, that this is Maya and it looks so credible. So there is an affection towards being, being in every form. But do they look differently? Not really. Could you speak about investigation? Because Bob does recommend that. So that his favorite line of investigation is, am I seeing right now? Am I hearing right now? So this one, I just explained that, you know, the eye doesn't see, but the capacity of seeing is there.

And who is seeing is the pure, blind, plain capacity, pure functioning. And in the same way, every other capacity, thinking, choosing, those are all the same capacity. If you recognize that there is nobody seeing. But then you can always look within and you say, okay, but there is a sense of location. There is an idea that there is me behind these eyes. Try and pinpoint that me. And if you pinpoint it, okay, it's here, just behind my eyes. Where are you looking from? Where do you, where are you aware of that me? Some, some people point me in the head, in the nose, or in the heart.

If there is an idea of location in the heart, how do you, where is the knowing of it? Where is the, because you gotta, if you are aware of your head or your heart, where are you aware from? So now you kind of, you may get the sense of being aware from, somewhere from behind. Okay. So who is, where is the awareness of that viewpoint from behind, aware of this? So now this way you expand your sense of location. Try to locate this, the point in awareness from which you are looking. And you find it impossible. You find that it's quite sweet and easy to do it with the, with the sounds.

Like if you, if you hear a couple of different sounds, two, three, four sounds. Sounds of the street, whatever sounds. And you just, you just hold them without really thinking about them or talking about them. And find out where is the awareness of the sounds. There was one there. Where is the awareness? Is it really here? Or is it with the sounds? Or is it completely unlocated? Like one sound there, one here, one. Where is the location of the one who is aware? And same with the seeing. You will see that, you know, you are aware of the content of seeing right now. Where are you looking from?

Okay, from behind my eyes. You can't even say you have two eyes. You just see that window through which you are looking. There is just looking. But yeah, it feels like there is something behind there that is looking through that big space. But how do you know it's out there? Where are you looking from to see that it's out there? So now the expansion of the awareness comes until the point, and this is really an exercise, this is an investigation, that once done and dropped off, there is no location to the knowing, it's just pure knowing. The same way which Bob is showing where is the me or am I the body if I don't think about it?

What am I if I don't think about it? So now you are not thinking. For a moment you just push aside every single thought. And what are you? And what are you? What can you say about yourself? You can't even say you are this body because this mental image is already to be put aside. So what are you? Are you this face? You can't even see your face. You can only remember it. Put it aside. Anything that is conceptual, that is an image or a thought is to be put aside. And what you are left with is that undeniable, ordinary, totally ordinary sense of presence.

And this ordinary is ever fresh. It kind of feels boring and unattractive for the mind. But the moment mind is not going to be checking on it, this inattractiveness and boredom completely disappears. Mind is something that is judging it and mind is something, and mind, what is the mind? It's just a stream of thoughts. So the thought comes and shows upon and says, nah, I want something more exciting. This is not it. This is no good. I want bliss, ecstasy, whatever. So this is a, it is a plain, basic, ordinary awareness. But when the mind really gets out of the picture, that awareness grows and completely steals the show, rather than mind stealing the show.

Rather than just living in the conceptual overlay of the reality, living in the dream. where everything is interpreted and related. And it's personal. And it's painful. So are you saying the awareness of the awareness is the same awareness? Yes, again, see, there are words that, you know, you can't be aware of awareness because awareness is not a thing to be aware. Awareness is just, it's just awareing. It's just knowingness. So you can't be, you can't know the knowingness. Knowingness is all there is. It's more of the exercise of location, of trying to locate a point somewhere in the body or outside the body. Yeah. Because that exercise kind of drop you off any sense of location.

Right. And you will end up being completely unlocated. with the sounds. And also you can do it, you know, you just focus on a few sounds and you see already the unlocated kind of knowing of it. And then add a couple of, you know, look within and see where you're looking from. This is also, this is extremely practical thing. Because the way we go about our life, 90% of attention goes to this thinking all the time, interpreting, talking, the inner dialogue, the noise in the head. So the very, very practical way to actually go about the life without being preoccupied with this self-obsession is to relax into this five senses, unfixated awareness.

Like Bob says, Buddhists, actually he is telling you after Buddhists, stay utterly awake with five senses wide open and unfixated awareness. So the way if you go even for a walk or to the shop or to work or anywhere and you kind of distribute attention evenly to the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling. Like you go and you kind of see things anew, fresh, even look for something new that you didn't see before. You know, the attention is already released from the head. It already feels much lighter. And then you add a couple of sounds there. Okay, attention again released from the head, focused on the immediacy.

Because seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, this is the content of the moment. This is the immediacy. While thinking is always about something that is not. We always think about something that is not. Something future past, later, somebody who is not there. Thinking is always completely out of touch with the reality. While the reality, the senses, I walk and I can feel, ah, my muscles on the face. Oh, my back. I can feel it. Attention gets released from the head and focuses evenly on the senses. And a joy springs in. Because what obscures that natural joy of being is that preoccupation, that self-obsession, that suffering. Anticipation.

Yeah. I like the, like the, there's awareness and then intention and then feeling and then habit and then illness. Ah, really? You know. Whereas, quickly, the awareness is, before intention is like the, because that, there's a, that, that thinking is always the intention. This, this, this, which is where the mind is constantly fighting intentions. Just before intention, there's the awareness. And then you can then, and then so often people look for enlightenment because they've seen this series that ends up with them being physically enlightened. And then they go, well, and then they completely fixated on their pain. But then that fixation goes, hang on a minute.

When there's nothing, another intention than this one pain, then they go, oh, just this, they get sick of this pain. And they go, hang on, there's an awareness of the pain. And then they go back into, oh, hang on, maybe I'm not this decision making intentioner. Maybe I just have to surrender. Are you saying intentions like attention or it's different? Oh, uh, awareness, an intention is the thinking going, finding a point. Right. Finding a reference point, which is the first reference point is myself. Yeah. But just before intention, there's awareness, where there's this constant possibility in every first, every moment because it's constantly changing. And the world just keeps giving you new awareness.

And that awareness is who you are. But on top of that who you are comes one choice, which is like putting on a mask. I am now going to be this. I'm now going to be this. Or I want to stay this forever, whatever this, whatever the belief is. And it's not often a choice, really. It's just something that comes onto your being. Suddenly you have an intention. Or often people reckon as, hang on, I didn't even make this choice. You know, they have this very negative belief or very positive belief, which both ends up in the same place. But these intentions are like all, no one's ever, you've never chosen any of them.

It's this, there's an illusion about choices. So just, but before intention, there's awareness, which is being aware of intentions and everyone else's intentions and your intentions. And then, awareness of feelings that are strong, and I hate this person, I love this person, I hate this, I hate this, I do like this. And then, then, you know, but before all of this goes deep into illness, there's just awareness. Beautiful. Yeah. You can always just step back to that basic screen, to that awareness, what everything appears on. That can be called space, or? I'd like to inquire about, so if I'm holding a cup, and I've got attention on that cup.

Yes. So that attention is on the cup, but there's awareness of the attention on the cup. Yes. So there's the third layer. Yes. But there's an awareness of the awareness. Yes. Of the cup. Keep moving back. Yeah. Keep moving back. So if I'm moving more broader and more broader of the awareness of the awareness, then that awareness is the same. Yes. So then, why does it appear that that awareness of the awareness is not aware of your awareness of awareness? Or is it just we haven't got there yet? We're limited. Who's on first? Maybe it is. I'm aware of the awareness of the attention. Yes.

But I'm not aware of your awareness, of your attention. But see, now, even though all the awareness is the same. Yeah. Now you made it personal. You see? Yeah. That your awareness of your intention or attention is a personal awareness. Yeah. But you are just a point in consciousness. It's just like this life, just the same way as it expresses, electricity is the life. And it expresses through the camera, through the light, through the vacuum cleaner, through the car, in different ways. But it's the same electricity. And ultimately, the electricity is one. Right. So now you have the same life, looking through different cameras. Yeah.

So it has total view of the whole screen of the world. But why would the one camera need to know what the other camera knows? The life does. Right. But you, the single point, doesn't matter. Because this eye wants to associate it to an experience. Yes. The experiencer. So by associating to an experience, it becomes personal. Yes. Right. There's no my awareness. Yeah. You're remembering your awareness. Yes. It wasn't your awareness. Yeah. It's the attention, right? It's like it's my nose, it's not my pimple. And there's actually no separation between the apparent awareness that's different over there It's this. It's just an illusion. It's part of the mind of thinking things are separate.

Where there's no evidence that anything is separate. There's a concept of separation. Yeah. Everything is a thought, like you said in the beginning. Yeah. That's how the world is kept real. It's an idea in that source, space, alive, organizing. And the illusion won't disappear because you see that it's an illusion. Yeah. It will continually manifest. Like the blue, you know the blue water isn't blue. But you'll never look at the ocean and see clear water. You'll never. It'll always be blue. Yeah. So the, so which I think is very interesting. Yeah. This question that the duality won't disappear. That's why they call it non-duality because there's never going to be a, a lack of duality.

And seeing the duality as non-duality is when it's like, oh, I see. But I think both can exist and both have, you've got room and space for both. Absolutely. The acknowledging of the duality and the acknowledgement of the non-duality. Yeah. Duality is called Maya. Duality is beautiful as well. Absolutely. As non-duality. And also duality is the divine expression of the one. This is, is to be totally recognized, appreciated and loved. This world is dream into existence out of the love for being. If it didn't love to be, it wouldn't be. So it's not about denying the beauty of the duality. And everything we experience in the dream is the duality.

It's like, why would I speak to anyone if there wasn't anyone here? I mean, gosh, I'm dreaming this body and these bodies right now. I know it is a dream, but the dream is still going on. Why? Because this computer, this projector, it keeps projecting. It's switched on. It will stop when it will be switched off. When the body will become corpse and will start stinking. Then the dream will not be projected anymore. But right now it is projected and it's wonderful. Especially when you actually realize it's a dream and it can't hurt you. You can fully love it. You can fully embrace it. Nothing is wrong in it anymore.

Like there is nothing wrong. I used to have this wonderful job, make thousand dollars per day and I had really, really great life looking around the world being paid for it. Now I don't. I learned aged care because that was the necessity of the moment. And I am just infinitely more happy and fulfilled. There is no sense of luck in me anymore. I'm not looking for anything anymore. I don't need anything to be any different. I don't need even, gosh, I don't need money. I don't need anything. It's just no desire. It's the freedom to appreciate the world as it shows up. Because this is the divine expression.

This is to be loved. I don't hold the concept, oh no, this or this or the other. They should be different. The world should be different. It shouldn't be this. How do I know better than the life? You know, life presents this. And I am life. I'm totally in agreement with whatever it presents moment to moment. Whatever it is, there is a yes and there is an embrace to it. So the appreciation of the dream is like Nisargadatta was saying. Dream is not a problem. The problem is that we like one part of it and not the other. Love all of it or no? Just going back to that example of the ocean though.

Yeah. And you say, you look at the ocean and it's blue and that's an illusion. And you become aware of the illusion, but the illusion still exists. Yes. And so does the attachment, you know. I know that's an illusion, that beautiful blue sky. And yet, even knowing that it's an illusion, I still feel a great sense of peace when I see, I feel an attachment to that illusion. And there's nothing wrong with, for example, once you see this play as a play, it's beautiful as a play. Like Shakespeare's plays are beautiful. But if you were identified with something in the play, then you're kind of, could be, you don't, if you don't see it as a play, it can be very torturous.

And you can watch a play and get so immersed, it can be really... Do you think recognising that it's an illusion helps you to detach from that? It allows awareness, intention, feeling, habit, physical activity, that... See those things for what they are. Because... Because... Because... Well, what... I like what someone says, look, don't make any choices, see what resonates. And... And... And the energy of it will... Um... In practice, the energy of resonating with something will... It's better than trying to work it all out. Because... You could be in a situation, and... That... And... If you attach to it strongly, it could be like a...

A... A bad relationship, or something that's going nowhere. Be a bit lighter, and just see what resonates. And if it's not for you, if it's not... If it's not part of the... If it's not part of the... Sense of awareness. If it's not connected with that whole chain. Because if we get that there's... That we're free. There's... You can do anything in the world. You don't have to do anything in the world. There's nothing to be done. There's no one doing anything. It's that... Sense of freedom. Which is... Identifying with the awareness. Rather than... All the... Other stuff. Which... Can become... May... May or may not be...

Um... Like a... Dis-ease. Not at ease. If you're at ease with whatever you're attached to. Perfectly fine. Because... You've had the investigation and seen. I'm at ease... With my suffering. A person is at ease with their suffering. There's people who are very... A lot of pain. But they're at ease with it. Because of whatever reason. Of investigating. And they're not resisting it. Because you know... If you resist... Is that perhaps a difference between... Sort of a... An appreciation or attachment to the illusion. And an addiction to the illusion. Yeah exactly. So the word addiction is beautiful. Because the opposite of addiction is connection. There's a really interesting thing about it.

That's a tangent. Mm-hmm. But... This question is always... If you're investigating whatever is happening. And seeing the... Um... That it's a pure awareness. Just as it is. In... Then... It's kind of like... Um... You know... There's no formula for a truth. But it's like... At least investigate. And see if there's... Um... If... This... If I'm... Believing this to be something. That's... One thing. If I'm believing myself to be real in this situation. You know... I just think it's this... The beauty of looking at non-duality. Mm-hmm. Is saying... Look at things just as pure awareness. For the benefit of it. Even though you... And you go...

Well... Who's gonna benefit? I am just pure awareness. If you're doing that... Then you're probably fine. No. It's a beautiful point. It's... It's a very important point. What you... What you just brought up. And it's also important in Bob's investigation. Look out for the resistance. Because the resistance is the ego. It's the relating to oneself. To the personal self. And resistance, he says, is the suffering. It's uneasiness. And disease. That's what... You know... That's what relating does. If something happens... And I had it before. And I like it. I wanted more of it. I will be clinging. That's when you say attachment. When something happened...

And I didn't like it in the past. And I'm still relating. I don't want it. I'll push it away. That's active resistance. Both ways. Holding and pushing away. Those both acts of resistance. And there is always... The resistance is always there because of the relating. Because of the me. If the me wasn't there, the resistance and the relating wouldn't have happened. So this is when, actually, another line of investigation by Bob. He says, if the me is the cause of all the resistance, see if the me is really there. Because that's what the karma is, cause and effect. So if the me is the cause, and the me is fiction, what results are we going to get?

If there is no me, that is the cause of the resistance. And the flip side of that is to notice what's just happening anyway. To just notice there's a drawing to a particular show and not another one. Show happens, enjoyed, over, gone. It's a drawing to something else. Oh yeah. Gone, done. It was just a show. Much enjoyed. And it just happened. That's the show that you went to. Absolutely. So the freedom from doing gives you joy in doing. Yeah. There's no you in there anyway. It's just like, oh, oh, hi, Sherry. Like, oh, I'm at Bob's again. My God. I've been doing this for turnaround years every time.

Oh yeah, okay. But, oh, I'm back here again. Yeah, interesting. And that lady, there's a lady, years ago, she hated doing the irony, you know. And her husband, she had to do all the irony. And she said, right, if Santa Bob was saying it's true, we don't make any choices, or we don't do anything, or whatever he says, I'm going to allow the character not to do the irony. Because it doesn't matter. So she lied on the couch, and then she said, 45 minutes later, she said, she saw herself ironing. And there was no resistance. Yeah. Yeah, so effortless effort. Yeah, which is, but it takes that, it does take that investigation.

It could be something as trivial as the ironing, but it does take that investigation to have a different relationship. Because the, the experience is everything. Not the experiencer or, what is the experience? It's the experiencing is everything. Yeah. Yeah. Here, there's an inch of second. Why sometimes, usually, I say, how I feel if I wasn't thinking these thoughts. Is that your pointer? It is. I just ask myself that. I just feel the, you know, relaxation. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's very similar pointer to when Bob says, what's wrong with right now if I don't think about it? And suddenly the thoughts of that problem wasn't there.

And I had Indian teacher before, who was precisely saying it the way you say it. How was I before that thought appeared? Was I okay? Well, okay. So how would I be without that thought? Yeah. It's, it's easy. It, it actually, it shows to which extent the thought modifies the reality. And now you can be a little bit more suspicious to thoughts. Maybe all of them are just the overlay and the modification of that basic screen. Or projections. And some thoughts, and some thoughts actually come from feelings. It's the same. Yeah. They're just different aspects. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's very interesting. That's very interesting.

Nobody knows. They all disappear in deep sleep. That's right. Even pain. Yeah. Mm. And the body goes into a different, lets go, goes into the waking state. It's forgotten isn't it? Yeah. The dream. Very good. Very good point. All these little pointers are really good to sit with. And they open up. They, they are. Even the first thought when you wake up. Absolutely. If you can see yourself, you know, all of a sudden your eyes are open, then, or your eyes aren't open in your thinking. It's already happening. That you're recording thought. Mm-hmm. Sometimes. Most of us just get up and all day, you know, like a robot.

This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Sometimes when I wake up, I catch that moment before, and I, it's sort of, you know, nothing. Yeah. No concept. Before the download happens. And then I'll, and then I'll see my, I'll feel my mind going, okay, let's worry about what, you know, I can feel it close. Yeah. It needs a time to fire up. Notice it clicking back in. Yes. Just like old windows. You press the button. And I'm thinking, why do I click it back in front? I can have my best ideas at that. I'm half, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not really thinking, but, I don't know, I always forget them.

So, just so you know, we are past time, so if anyone wants to rush home, you can, you know, don't worry about disrespecting others. Oh, if you want to hang out, we hang out. That went quick. Yeah. This is, Bob's usually closes up. We won't tell him. We won't tell him.