Sailor Kat Non duality spiel and discussion

Nice, just so everyone knows, everyone. Julia. Max. Jared. Miles. Robin. Sarah. Do you want me to cut doors? I'll get it. Hi. How are you? How are you? How are you walking with me? Okay, so everyone just introduced each other. So, this is Helen. Grab a seat. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. And, yeah, just, anyway. That's the county spot. Is it? Yeah. So, this is Silor Bob's meeting. Silor Bob's non-duality meeting. For those who don't know, he's in the rehab. He had a hip replacement. He's been in the hospital for ten days. Now he has rehab in another ten days. And because I live here for the last two and a half years, and we are both equally passionate about the topic, he asked me to cover up for him.

So, the question I have for you, for people who I didn't see before, how far I can go with this? I mean, can I throw a deep, heavy stuff at you or should I just gently introduce, like, you know, the mild way? Because, did you ever, did you have anything to do with non-duality? Did you hear any other speakers or did you look at the books or websites or Bob's spiel or anything? Sorry? Oh, yeah, well, just read online, basically, I suppose, and I had another friend of mine who's come here a few times, and she sort of told me about it, and that's, yeah, but I haven't been to a meeting or seen anyone speak about it in life before, but, yeah, I think what I've read online.

I think you should be, go, go, go, go out. Okay, okay. How about you, Helen? You ready for, like, dropping to the ocean, completely just taking it on? Because, you know, we can just gently touch the surface, because the problem of non-duality is it is totally uncomprehensible for the mind. For the mind is absolutely ridiculous. Like, to go, to drop the heavy stuff, I would tell you there is no you. You don't have any choice, any free will, any control over life. How does it sound? For the, for the me, for the ego? It sounds like crap. We can go even further. What the all ancient traditions say, the reality is the emptiness, is the nothingness, the beingness, the awareness of presence or presence of awareness.

While this, names, forms, bodies, objects, the Maya, the illusion, they don't exist. So this is, this is something that if someone comes and hears it with the mind, it's like, what a bunch of crap. Like, could anyone come up with something more ridiculous than this? It can't. Like, deny the reality of things and assert the, the unreality of things and, and, and, and focus on something that mind can't comprehend. Hi. Hi. So, I just, I'm just covering up for Silo Bob, who is in hospital right now. He's, he's, he's in rehab. He will hopefully be back home. he's not sick he's just sore he had the hip replacement he's almost 90 so he kind of worn it out pretty well he needed a spare parts so the operation was successful he's walking more and more day by day but for a time being unfortunately he needed a software he needed someone to cover up for him and yes so how well are you accustomed and familiar with non duality did you hear any of the big names no no I'm Katarina Sabine is filming both okay but she's also posting some of I invited her I was hoping that she will be here instead of this bunch of flowers but she didn't yeah I mean I've been listening to sailor Bob for about a year I kind of came across him when I was listening to Rupert Spira oh yeah okay so I've been listening to him for a while and just decided to come and see sailor Bob and see if you know ask questions or just you know just to hear other people talk about it yeah yeah we are we on the same page yes yeah Rupert Spira is totally I mean there is a lot of people who speak about the same thing they use slightly different expressions different words but well the trouble of non duality is like the since in link says the way is beyond language words can't grasp it for basic and simple reason that words belong to the mind and every word is dualistic by its own nature every word has the opposite take any word glass and then the opposite is no glass so it's really a but language is about duality and what we are pointing to we are pointing beyond language so it is actually more important to feel the frequency of the of the expression than to hang on to the words I actually like myself to play out with different pointers and wreck them myself I mean throw them to the rubbish because every pointer has limitation they're wonderful wonderful pointers but they're all wrong because they're words so they actually like finger pointing at the moon so whoever you spoke if your heart somehow resonates with the message and words are of secondary importance yes the words are pointing to something but to actually see where they are pointing you have to look for yourself this is what usually Bob starts with he says I'm not speaking to anybody I'm not speaking to any mind I'm speaking to the I am the sense of presence that I am and that same sense of presence is in every one of us and that very sense of presence is totally beyond minds comprehension because if you start looking for the sense of presence with your mind you will try to make it a thing an object you try to make awareness something that can be perceivable conceivable comprehensible and it is not it is not a thing it is the very light in which you are seeing so you can't actually find it but it can be pointed it can't even be sensed like you can't use your eyes your hearing you nothing to actually even sense it but you can't deny it but can you deny the fact that you are that you exist can you say I don't exist I'm not even if you say it even to say I am NOT you have to be to say so basically that very essence of existence that knowing that we are is what we are looking for but if again we are looking with the mind mind is totally bored because you're looking for nothing and mind is determined to make things into objects see the way the mind was conditioned since early childhood it learned to label things and distinguish them out from the emptiness and it doesn't see it doesn't sense like eyes don't register the space ears don't register the silence that nothing is up is absolutely under just so it is it is something that it can only be pointed and using words using minds using analogies with seeing hearing tasting smelling smelling is actually is is a way to point at it but it's it can only be tasted through walking the walk through looking into that with putting the mind outside putting the sensory experiences aside and looking within what is what is there that has always been there that never ever changed like what has been there always what is absolutely totally reliable and unchangeable that has been there since as long as we can tell even before the memory was available to register memories the sense of being the presence of awareness the very fact of the existence was always there and this is something that for the mind is nothing is boring you know we look for distractions we are promised that enlightenment is a pleasure is eternal bliss so we are looking for this bliss for pleasure for great experience but every experience is changing is coming and going so what this experience even of bliss appears on this is the basic screen this is basically what all non duality is about the one thing that can never change and can never be denied because if we start from here and we look at the content of awareness then we see the the objects you know there's in the space of seeing the objects and they're changing like half an hour ago you were in a different environment content of seeing was was different you've seen different things and then even if you move your head the content is constantly changing so it can't be in the space of seeing because it's changing the seeing appears in that space but it's changing same with hearing tasting touching smelling and thinking because thoughts are coming and going all the time thoughts are completely unreliable and now what are all them appearing on because see why are we growing up we bring up the idea that i am separate i am an entity i am a body and this is my problem this is my idea this is my life and suddenly things become separate like i am here the world is out there and this world is threatening now i have to defend myself protect myself i'm also brought up in a way that i will be acknowledged and pat on the on the shoulder for every more of every word every new word i'm learning i'll be acknowledged for intelligence for developing symbolic language and replacing reality with symbols i'll be thinking about water and i will have mental picture of the water and soon after i won't even be able to tell what is the reality that is overlaid through the through the thinking stream and what is happening here in the plane being in a plane reality like what is happening without the thought because this is ultimately the big question of non-duality and this is probably the most elegant although all the pointers of bob are very very elegant but this one is uh made him famous at least that what is there if you don't think about it like what is truth without the thought what is that ultimate reality without the overlay of thinking and it's not to say there is anything wrong with thinking thinking is wonderful capacity it's absolutely brilliant if not for thinking the art wouldn't exist the civilization wouldn't have to shape it does it's absolutely wonderful but if we want to see the source the core of all manifestation if we want to go back to the to to this original creative power the essence of what we are then we don't really go distracted into the little aspects of expression we don't go distracted by the content of seeing or content of mind we just really draw back into that into that base that never changes that base from which everything springs and this is the silence stillness basic screen or satchitananda being knowing and loving to be or omnipresence omnipotence omnipotence omniscience in christianity which is basically total presence total power and and total knowing so it is really that every pointer points back to that same basic screen to that origin of the existence that origin on which that screen on which everything appears so this is this is much before the story about me came about much before that story about me become very important much before this the me assume the idea that i'm not enough i'm inadequate and i have to do the self-growth self-help i have to acquire i have to become better i have to become smarter and i have to become enlightened so that me appeared on the screen is part of the content is this me if that is actually questioned and seen as the temporary appearance and this is relatively easy to see if we look at another pointer that bob is talking about which is conceptual image like all of us we have image conceptual image about ourselves like what am i who am i am i the body am i the mind and this conceptual image is changing all the time this not everybody notice right away but even in our language when we speak i'm going to see bob tomorrow who is going what is going what is the eye that is going obviously the eye that i think i am doesn't have legs the body so i'm thinking i'm the body right now because i'm going or i'm planning to go so then now i'm feeling sad because he's in pain so who is feeling is who is feeling sad now the conceptual image shifted from the body to the emotions or i get pissed off because of something so now the conceptual image is yet something else but those things if they are noticed also how the conceptual image changed over the years let's say i go to work and i get promotion i get appreciated now i love my boss i love my work i'm good i'm not too bad and then the next day he's got a post she's got a period or whatever and now i get the opposite and i hate it now now maybe i'm not that good maybe i'm a damn failure maybe they should fire me the same it's just details in the dream that have changed and they totally affect my conceptual image so how how real is the conceptual image and this was actually a crucial point it was a critical point in the way bob was guiding me out of the conceptual image which i didn't really know what was going on at that time and i didn't even know a while after but really to see what we consider ourselves to be i had a strong identification because for years i was questioning in many different ways zen and different different spiritual paths i was relatively free from the belief that i'm the body and bob shows it beautiful when he when he says that the body is changing all the time how could i be the body like which part of the body would i be if there is every cell is dying like atoms are dying cells are dying every 10 years science tells us that we don't have the cell that we did but physics tell us that every every couple of seconds you know the body rebuilds itself what make it rebuild itself in the same way if not the ideas if not the thoughts but anyway if i was the body which when would i start as the body like when when the body started it actually never started if i was to be a body i would have to be there before i was born because the fetus was already there the embryo was already there but before that two cells sperm and ovum joined together the potentiality was there anyway was still there when my parents met and when they when they ate food when they fell in love that body the cells that they created were already there so being a body is uh it's uh it's relatively easy to see through that we are not the body like of course there is a difficulty related to the sensory experiences like i can bunk the leg and julia doesn't feel it so there is a locality seeming locality in the appearance but the same thing happens with the car if i hit the car julia doesn't feel it in her car so it is relatively easy identification with the mind is a little bit more of a harder story because we get during the conditioning we get attached to our thoughts to our beliefs to our thinking we are told we are christians or we are jews or we are muslims or hindu and and that kind of we invest in it we invest the belief in it or we are told we are woman or men and we very much invest in it and we remember it day and night we wake up in the middle of the night and we know i know i'm a woman i know i won't be going and trying to shave my face it becomes part of the identity also the nationality like we were talking yesterday about being patriot being you know like identified with my country or if identified with the family or group or whatever so those are things that are again relatively easy to to see true because it's enough to say okay what stands to the ultimate test that bob is offering what am i when i'm not thinking about it what am i if i don't have the memory of being from poland or being woman or being all that or being body if i don't hold that conceptual image the thoughts in my mind what am i then what can i say about myself do i disappear without the holding to the thought i still exist but what am i so this is this is the invitation to actually go and figure it out because mind can't do it if you try and sit and look with the mind what is there you will only always find nothing and nothing for the mind is the abyss in which the mind dies it's literally a death of the mind is it can be frightening it can be scary but usually it's just boring so for one or the other reason it's it's just not happening but in my case the identification was the strongest with the emotional part emotional body i came to bob with in a point of absolute devastation i was totally devastated because relationship in which i invested a lot time heart effort money everything it just crashed i just couldn't i just couldn't fool myself any longer and and i was in tears and i was ready to die and i had enough i was depressed and apart from not being the body not being the mind apart from the not thinking about it there was still very very strong contraction and there was still very strong heartbreak and the worst of it all was that the person who put me in that position who is my wonderful great friend and i'm grateful eternally for having to go through that hell he had a different conceptual image of me and i was telling bob you know what the worst is that he doesn't even see how fragile i am he doesn't see my vulnerability he doesn't see my heart he only see the smart ass who has a good job and money who is smart ass and who can quote all sorts of different teachers that was his image and i said bob i'm not that i'm not that i'm vulnerable i'm fragile i'm i have feelings i have heart and as i was showing him this is what i think i am can you see anything i didn't in this moment i realized that image that i had of myself was an image that was maybe a little bit more pretty than the image he had of me but was equally empty was equally nothing so that was the point when i can't believe it anymore i can't believe in being an image however beautiful however fun i couldn't believe it anymore and this was the point where my tears become even more like overflowing but the tears all melted with laughter and then didn't stop for like yeah how long does it take half a year of laughter absolute laughter you just can't stop you just look at the world like this is all dream because once there is nobody there behind this eyes you can recognize the same nothing manifesting as everything because there was very very strong strong identification with the form there was an idea that there is a little dwarf inside that is fragile

It's so sensitive, it has to look after my life, after my career, my finances – it's having needs recognition.

By the way, I was so shy, I would never, ever open my mouth in front of a group of people. But… once you recognise, really what is driving that body moment to moment, what is waving that hands… It's not a dwarf, it's not a little Santa Claus inside, it's the same force, it's the same power that is growing the trees. Is there anyone inside the tree that is growing the branches and the leaves and putting the roots down? There is no entity doing it. And tree is doing pretty well, it creates the little seeds, flowers, fruits, whatever. It doesn't need anyone to control it. The whole appearance is actually, of course, you know, the furniture doesn't grow as a tree, it needs somebody's hands.

And those hands need a thought to show up and shape the form. So the thoughts, this is an interesting point to also realise. Do we think the thoughts? And then, if we do, can we decide what our next thought is going to be? And how is that going to happen? How the decision is going to happen? This is, this is, this point when this is realised is, ah, it's halfway through already. If we realise that what is going to be my next thought? I have no clue. What am I going to think in five minutes? I have no clue. I have no clue. I have no clue.

I can't know what is going to be my thinking. So, do I really think them? Or they just appear? Do I really see the things? Or they just appear in the space of seeing? Is there really someone seeing something? Or it's just process of seeing? Because what we do with the mind? Because what we do with the mind? We always divide into duality. Simple process. Seeing. Now, there is me and there is this. And that seeing happens in duality. But really does it? If I remove this, is there any seeing left? Or is there any, or can I even call it seer if there is nothing to see?

Nope. Or if there is this, or if there is this one. Or if there is this one. But no me here. I can't say either. There is any seeing. So, it is actually one and the same. In the space of seeing, apparent duality of seer and the seeing. But really, there is no duality. It's just seeing. It's just like waving hands. It's growing. It's speaking. It's thinking. Thinking is happening. But I'm not choosing thoughts. I'm not thinking thoughts. I don't know what am I going to say in two minutes. The secret of holding these meetings is to never get prepared. It's to never assume what am I going to say.

Because that kills spontaneity. That makes it rigid and false. Like, this is, we are all talking about nothing. How can I prepare to talk about nothing? It's crazy. So, if you realize that you don't know what your next thought is going to be. Or maybe any of you does. Can you conceive of the next thought? And how this conceiving will happen, if not by a thought that appears in the mind? So, they just appear. They come and go. If we can't even. Because sometimes it may seem like there is an apparent choice. Okay, I'm going to have the positive reaction towards some incident or negative reaction.

And I'm choosing to have the positive reaction. But is it really I am choosing? Or is just the thought appearing again? Out of nowhere. Suddenly thought appearing to go this way. Or suddenly those two thoughts. One is quite weak. And another one is very strong and charged. Irresistible. So, those thoughts, they just appear like objects in hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. So, there is just process. Just being. Just like sense of presence. But there is nobody who is present to anything else. There is no me present to the room. There is just presence. And if I don't limit that presence. If I don't put it inside the skin of the body.

Here it is and here it isn't. If I take the label of the body out of it. What I can say? I can only say there is being. There is presence. But where does it begin or end? To say that? To define that? I need the thought. I need the idea. I need the belief. I need to make myself believe that I am the body separate from other bodies. And again, this has a lot to do. And again, this has a lot to do with the way we actually formulate that image of ourselves. It has a lot to do. It actually has everything to do with the past.

Like who am I without the past? Who am I without my past? If I don't know. If I wasn't told that I am a girl or a woman. If I wasn't told that I am Jewish or Christian or Hindu. If I wasn't told that I am Polish. Who am I? If I didn't remember all this stuff that happened to me. All the evaluation and comparison. Because to say anything about myself. I also have to have the bigger picture and compare myself with others. To see that I am good or bad. According to what? Comparing to what? So this is all conceptual. So this is all conceptual.

All the past is conceptual. And along the life we actually build up that sense of presence. And we just cover it up. Build the little blocks. Like a little wall around it. To tell ourselves what we are. And why this happened in the first place? Because of conceptual thinking. And because we replace the sense of presence with the symbol. Just like we do with everything else. Thinking about water. Thinking about water. And we see water. In the language. We actually. In the symbolic language. We replace the forms. The objects. That's the capacity of reasoning. That's what enabled us to think and create the civilization like this.

So same way. So same way. We actually vacate that original sense of being. And go to the mind. And replace it. With the limited being. In time space. Mind is responsible for time. So the mind. Will tell me. That I had passed. I am 43 or whatever. And I had this. This and that happened to me. And this will assert the existence of the entity. Because without the mind. The entity doesn't have an existence. Like try to see. Try to stay separate. Limited entity. Without the past. Without the idea of being the body of the mind. Without the thinking. That you are the body of the mind.

Or the mind. It's impossible. So the mind. The moment. We. That's about the age. Two. Two and a half. When the child knows enough words. And can reason. And can start replacing. The reality with the symbolic language. That is when the original separation happens. And I actually saw it once. The child's child was a couple of years old. And the child was. His name was Manan. It was an Indian child. And which is. The all Indian names are all about. Reminding about the ultimate truth. They all beautiful. Anyway the child was calling itself baby. And when the baby. And when the mommy asked child. Where is the baby.

Baby run quickly. Two year old. And show in the mirror. Here. Here in the mirror. And then. A couple of days later. And it was a very very profound moment. Because we all knew what was happening. And we all just went silent. The child looked at the mirror. And. And that was shocking. That was the birth of identification. It was shocking. We all had goosebumps. Like oh my god. And yes. And yes. Since that point on. The child developed in a different way. It starts relating to itself. It doesn't work the same way. It's not. Like. Child. Just like the animal. Is attracted or repulsed from anything.

Spontaneously. It sees this color. And it goes into it. It sees that one. No. No. This is. This is good. But. Pleasant. Painful. It all kind of. Happens spontaneously. The movement is natural. Just like. Like wild animals in the nature. It doesn't mean that they love everything. It doesn't mean that they like. Or they. They happy when it's cold or rain. Or they happy when they have wound in the. Or when they hunt it. Or that they will eat anything. No. No. It's. It's just natural functioning. And now. When the child start identifying with this. This one. Gets a special attention. And this. And everything.

Since now on. Is being related to this. To the. To the. To the me. So. I don't like it. Because. This is not. You know. And then everything gets labeled. I don't like it. Because baby wants this. Now baby is getting. Is getting enormous importance. And is growing with that importance. And is needing attention. Because. Replacing the pure being. With this. Small conceptual. Ego. Sort of an idea. Is very fragile. At this point. It needs a lot of believing. To actually hold it real. So if the child. Develops properly. It gets a lot of believing. A lot of mommy. Daddy. Yes. Acknowledging. Beautiful painting you drew.

Oh. That's nice. Oh. You know. That's a lot. A lot of attention. A certain. The separation. Of the baby. And again. There's no judgment about it. That's pure perfection. Because. That's the way. The game is made real. If. The reality. The emptiness. The cognizing emptiness. Of space. Like awareness. Or the source. Didn't give itself. That little body. And didn't make itself. Forget itself. In that little body. And didn't look at other bodies. As separate. The game wouldn't be. Like what a hide and seek. If I already know where I am. And who I am. That's not a game. And also. What's the possibility. Of awakening.

From the dream. If you never fall asleep. That's. What's the point. I mean. Again. It makes sense. The moment you see through it. It absolutely didn't make sense. Five years ago. Or three years ago. Whatever. When I could see a lot of suffering. Around the world. And my heart was. My heart is still breaking. When I'm seeing suffering. But there is no resistance. Towards it. There is just willingness to help. And willingness to give a hand. And. And. And actually. There is. And I'm actually pretty happy. For being. Heartbroken. If it is the reality. Of the moment. I wouldn't like to. Lose the sense of compassion.

If I see someone in pain. So. Now. Everything. As it comes to that. Two year old baby. Whether it likes it. Or it doesn't like it. Everything is. Is. Is welcome. Everything is okay. Everything is just as it is. But for most of my life. Everything was based on the resistance. Everything was about me. I was on the spiritual search. Not because I cared about. Helping every other beings. To get out of the suffering. I love the romantic idea of that. But really. I wanted it for myself. I wanted to be enlightened for myself. So I'm free from suffering. So I'm seeing through. It was really.

Everything was really. Very very selfish. Very much about me. And this is. This is what. You can wake up from. And the life flows. Without that sense of resistance. And the life flows. Completely effortlessly. Without relating to the past. Doesn't mean the past is unavailable. When in the normal daily functioning. Past is required. It is readily available. Just like the computer. Computer doesn't have an ego. And it has all the files. Stored in appropriate folders. And they can be accessed. And computer doesn't say. This is my past. Those are my folders. Those are my events. And those are better than the others. Computer doesn't give a shit.

It knows that this is just. Like this. This is a bio computer. Through which the life expresses. And experiences itself. And has a glimpse of its own capacity. To manifest as the other. But once the life knows. It is just emptiness. Waving. Just ocean waving the waves. It is just that life essence. Moving and expressing into myriads of different forms. It just. How could it ever resist itself. How could it ever say. That things should be different. How could it ever. Say no to itself. In any form it appears. Even if the form is extreme pain. Like Bob was going through extreme pain. Two weeks ago.

During the operation. I've never seen anything like that. But there was no resistance towards it. This is the way life is experiencing itself in this moment. Because that's the life's will. That's how it wants to experience itself. And in absence of resistance. Life just flows. It's beautiful. It's easy. It's effortless. It's fun. Yes. So the invitation is to actually look what is looking. Rather than trying to work it out with the mind. Rather than trying to understand it conceptually. Because again conceptually. It's too ridiculous. That's why I actually enjoy throwing out that really ridiculous absurd shit. Right away. You know. This is real. This is fake.

This is fiction. This is illusion. This is manifestation. Maya. It doesn't exist. This. Is real. How mind can hear it. It can't. It's like lunatic. It's. But this is. This is what it is. This. Really. Seriously. Seriously. If you drop down to the core of your being. If you drop down to the heart of the essence. Then you see. How everything that seems solid. Is conditioning. We were conditioned since a little baby to recognize things as solid. To actually see them out of like babies seeing floating sensations around it. Coming and going out of the awareness. Nothing is being recognized. They are just not. You can't even distinguish seeing from hearing.

They even say they see upside down for the first couple of weeks or so. And then through the process of conditioning we are learning to perceive. The perception through labeling we are learning to perceive separate things and collectively believe in those separate things. And Bob has a wonderful pointer. Which again as a pointer is limited. He says everything is sustained by the energy of belief. And now it can get confused because there's already so many concepts. Awareness. Presence. Belief. Life. Essence. Core. Heart. Energy. Intelligence. Energy. Energy of belief. None of it is true. None of it is it. They are just pointers. Really what it is.

Buddhist they call it. Cognizing emptiness. Which is the emptiness with the capacity of self-knowing. Or consciousness they call it also. So this very essence expressing us everything. And expressing us time. Expressing us mind. Mind with the capacity of believing in the reality of things. Believing in solidity of things. And pumping that energy of belief repeatedly into everything to make it solid. How solid it is when the observer is gone. We can't even tell. But while the observer is there. And while we all agree that these things are there. The carpet. The cat. They all have the being. But we kind of learn to see them as separate forms.

Related to the separate form that is looking. Like this from this location. This one is seen. So this perception has been conditioned. And perception without the mind. Is just what the baby sees. The bundle of floating sensations. Just a bundle of. Like without. Right now we can't even conceive of looking at things without labeling them. And not knowing what they are. Because the mind has been trained to recognize things even without the label. Even if I don't say it is a glass. There is a knowing of it. There is knowing coming from that perpetual. Well the algorithm in the brain that is recognizing. Not in the brain.

In the mind. Whatever. The firing electrons. Or neurons. Whatever. That recognize it. But there are certain ways to actually. To deselect that network. Where the recognition of objects. The knowing of objects. Can be temporarily switched off. They are techniques. Special techniques of meditations. They are drugs. That can give people a glimpse. But it's not necessary. Because every one of us. Have been a baby before. So whether we remember or we don't. That knowledge is innately within. And that knowledge is fully developed. And it's that very being. Is actually doing the breathing of the body right now. It's pumping the blood. Nobody says I am pumping the blood.

Or I am growing my hair. It is happening by itself. It's the intelligence of life doing it. It's the same intelligence of life. That is moving the planets. That is bringing seasons. Making trees to drop the leaves. And making animals find the food. They know where to hide. What to eat. That instinct. That is the same life. And the very same life is leaving us moment to moment. And on that very life leaving us. Doing the learning. Choosing profession. Which are thoughts appearing. The inspiration. Likes and dislikes. All that conditioning. On top of it. There is an overlay of identification. That this is me. This is mine.

This is important. And that overlay of identification. Of being an entity responsible for my choices. For growing my hair. Maybe not that much. But for everything in life. The social conditioning. Like you know. If there is no responsibility. So shall we open the jail houses. And put all the rapists back on the street. And put all the shit on. Nope. People. The killers and the rapists. They were locked in the jail houses. Not by the entities. But also by life. They killed by the same life. As they were put for the prison. And isolated by the same life. Life is self-organizing. It is. It's been.

Before even humans appeared. It's been self-organizing. And again. When I say before. I assume time. Because we are in the realm of mind. Time doesn't exist. Time exists only when I recall it. In ultimate reality. The time. Where I was a child. Or where there was no humanity. Is only a mental concept. That exists. When I think about it. When I don't think about it. It doesn't even exist. It's not in this immediacy. What is the reality of this immediacy? Without the overlay of the past. Without asserting myself as an entity. Through memorizing all the past events. Experiences. And everything that I learned about myself.

And about everybody else. It's just this moment. And in this moment. I can't possibly know what I am. How could I know what I am? I can only go to the mind. And tell myself a story. But where am I looking from? Which standpoint do I look from. To tell that I'm a person. I'm Katarina. Or whatever. It's absurd. To be able to tell what I am. I'll have to look from outside of myself. To see what I am. But by that very process. I'm not Dada anymore. But the one that's looking. So. It's totally impossible. The only thing that we can know. And there is a question.

Who am I? The whole spirituality goes on the question. Who am I? We are supposed to find the answer. Who are we? Well. Now there is no answer. The question. Is the answer. The dissolution of the question. Is the answer. The moment the question. Who am I? Doesn't arise anymore. Who is there to give a shit? Who is there to want to find out? If there is no one who wants to find out who am I, there is no problem. The question comes from the longing of the heart to penetrate that veil of mind, that veil of conditioning. And that's a wonderful, wonderful question. That's the devotional question.

That's the core of being or the consciousness calling out for itself. So the seeking starts, the search starts, the looking within, even though there is no within or without. It's just, it's just the language that makes everything dualistic. But really, pondering and hanging on to that question and sitting with that question and seeing how impossible it is to find the answer. Because where would the answer be? The answer, the answer to any question would have to be a concept in the mind. And any concept in the mind is again the minute expression on that basic screen. Any concept comes and goes. There is no concept that could be there permanently just like the sense of being.

Bob often says, okay, what about the concept I am? So maybe I am that thought I am. But how about going to sleep and dropping that concept I am? Do I die? Or how about thinking other thoughts throughout the day? The concept I am, I'm not going and thinking I am, I am, I am. The thought doesn't really matter. None of the thoughts actually matter. They are just, they are just expression or translation of that sense of presence. Because again, Nisargadatta was pointing and this is, and this is a gorgeous pointer. He was saying diamond of good fortune. A diamond of good fortune. Is to stay with the I am to the exclusion of everything else.

Very, very beautiful pointer. Finding and developing affectionate love to that sense of being, that pure sense of I am to the exclusion of all distractions. All distractions. The relationships, loves, money, whatever. Just that diamond of good fortune. But did he mean the I am? The word? Of course not. He meant the sense of presence. But to be able to actually express the sense of presence, the mind translated to that I am. But it doesn't mean that there is an I that exists. The I is actually, I am is actually I am-ness. It's just being. It's just, it's just one sense of presence. And again, this one is totally boring for the mind.

That's why there is not that many people ever even looking into non-duality. And usually, everyone included me, including particularly me, to, we got attracted into looking into the idea of enlightenment because of the promises of pleasure, of nirvana, of relief from suffering. Who is there to be relieved from the suffering? Once you realize the question who am I doesn't arise anymore, the question who suffers doesn't arise either. So there is no one really to suffer. So life shows up different things, good, bad, pleasant, painful. It shows up whatever it shows up. But there is no one there to have any opinion about it, to resist it, to want it to change.

There is no one who has preference about what to do with life or whatever. And it's really, it's really fascinating if you really look like at Bob Life's story. He used to be a drunk. He used to be absolutely drunk. He used to be drinking himself to death. He had the gun in his mouth a couple of times because he was, suffering was unbearable. And it made him search, it made him look, because being an alcoholic, he was in, well he was not only in unbearable pain himself, but he was also witnessing people who were sober for 10-15 years, one jump off the window, another one hung themselves.

They were still unhappy, they were still miserable. And on the meetings they told him that, you know, there is only one way out. There is this higher power that is running the universe, so you got to find out what that higher power is who gave you the second chance. And he started looking for the higher power. And then he realized there is no division in power. There is no higher power, lower power, my power, your power. There is omnipotence. There is total power. It's just one. But it took him many, many years and throughout this many, many years, life was throwing him in very, very different directions.

And even after he saw Nisargadatta, there wasn't that rose-colored, he was still having troubles in the relationship. The maturity of the recognition, the roughness of the patterns of personality, the personality developed through the incredible suffering, through the addiction, through the extreme selfishness. And now, even though there was nobody there, the pattern perpetuated. So he was still pretty rough. He married a love of his life with four young children. And he says he wasn't that good of a stepfather because he had no idea about that. So then he went to the farm and he fell sick. He was sick for four years, could barely walk. He says if not for the reality of that recognition, he would have shot himself back then.

It was dreadful. But with the curiosity and lack of the resistance to seeing what is going to happen next, he went all the way through. 40 plus years of teaching. Many, many people around the world who pass on the message. He's equally passionate about it, as he always was. And now we can look into it. Yeah, I had some rough sailing myself too, but we were both sailors. Bob was, his nickname is Sailor Bob, he used to sail on the ships. And when he was in IA, they had to distinguish between different Bobs, tall Bob, high Bob, hot Bob. So he was Sailor Bob. It wasn't high Bob there.

Yeah. And when I found my way here and when I moved in with Bob and he didn't even know that the extra hand at home to do some cooking and stuff would be handy. I actually quit sailing. I was sailing. I was working as a ship's officer for 17 years. So eventually life made a joke and brought Sailor Cuts to Sailor Bob. And now I'm not, I'm not sailing anymore. So one could say, oh, that's dreadful. You know, once she, and that's what some of my friends back in Poland think. Probably my mother also. You're sailing through life now. You're sailing through life. You're just.

And yes, but for them, I used to make thousand dollars per day. And I used to be a very important chief officer on the ship. I had everyone under my thumb. And now I tell you what I'm doing now. I'm looking after old people. I hardly make thousand dollars per month. So for many of my friends, this is absolute disaster. Don't even go to non-duality. You're going to lose your life. You're going to lose your prestige. I love that story because it just shows ridiculousness of the conditioning and the belief system. I've never ever been more at ease with whatever happens. And I've never been more happy to be at service.

And the old people that I'm looking after are absolutely delightful. And when I was sailing ships and looking at this vastness of the ocean and the vastness of the sky, I absolutely loved it because that was the moments when I would disappear. It was still about me. And the me had a little break of myself, like a moment of, oh my gosh, this is so big, I'm so little. Now nothing is about me anymore. I'm going and doing whatever is required. I can wash the toilets and cook the dinner and wipe the ass, whatever. And I'm totally happy because there is nobody here to have any idea that there's anything, oh, what is it, dignity or whatever about it.

And I absolutely love those people. And tomorrow I'm going to see the lady who always reacts when she sees me. She's got tears rolling down her cheeks. And she says, oh my God, thank you, thank you God. Because she's a difficult lady. And not many carers actually, not many carers can love her unconditionally. And with me she's got it for granted. And it's the most rewarding thing in the world to actually drop off the idea of self-importance, of the position or money or prestige or whatever. And just be where life would have me. And again, I would never imagine I would live with Bob. What a privilege.

But when I moved in here I didn't need him anymore. For a couple of years I never asked him one non-duality question. What a waste. Somebody could leave there who could take more advantage. I'll move in. So now, how did you go with it? How does it work for you? Is it anything that resonates? Is it anything that... Because it is on the beginning, especially in the beginning when we listen with the mind, it is absolutely ridiculous. It is horrible. Like if someone would tell me that thing ten years ago when I was seeking for enlightenment and doing Vipassana and having all the beautiful enlightened ideas of how wonderful and how ecstatic it is going to be.

How I will never need to eat chocolates or have sex because I will be in a constant place. Yeah, somebody would tell me that, yeah, no, it's not really. It's not really going to be any achievement. There is no such a thing or state that you as a person are going to acquire. You as a person are going to just completely dissolve. And the interest in acquiring state or acquiring enlightenment will dissolve with you. And then suddenly, recognizing yourself as nothing, you're going to recognize the nature of everything as nothing. And recognizing nature as everything to be nothing, you're going to absolutely lose your heart, fall in love with the reality of this.

Like, look at this. Doesn't it look convincing? Doesn't it look absolutely real? Doesn't it look beautiful? And if you look at the stories, if you look at the suffering, if you look at emotions, they are gorgeous. And this, this whole display is the manifestation of what I am. This is me showing myself to myself in thousand different ways. And once, like, there is no state that person could achieve who would even come close to the realization of the magnificence of the dream. Of what am I doing right now, waving that ocean into that form. So this is when I realize I'm nothing. I fall in love with myself as with everything.

As everything. Because this is what I am. This is what I'm looking at. But this, I wouldn't be able to hear when I was still seeking for the state, me as a person wanting to achieve that bliss. And if you listen with your mind, that's what you're going to hear, that something that is totally not compelling, something that is totally not attractive. Plus, trying to get it or find it or seek for it or achieve it, is again that person trying to achieve it. And that very person is, is, is what stands in the way. So that very person is the veil between the reality recognizing itself, consciousness.

This is the translation. This is making it small, making it painful. So this very person that stands in the way has to be questioned first. Because once you see the unreality of the person, everything else just blossoms, just comes effortlessly and flows effortlessly. And I was even telling Bob how beautiful it is occasionally to actually have glimpses of the being, of the reality and of emotional states of other people or other beings. Not that it is necessary, not that it must happen or it will happen. It doesn't matter. Those are, some people develop some powers. They can be trained. I'm not interested in developing any of it.

But it's just a bonus. It's just a little kiss of eternity. That is quite sweet. Anyway, Bob is often saying that this type of conversations, they have to be heard from the different place than the head. Because the head is hearing the words. And the words, you don't even have to bother tearing them apart. I'm pretty good myself in doing it. I can very easily take every sentence that I said and prove it to be ridiculous and inadequate and wrong. Because every word comes from the mind and its duality. So it really isn't on the way about it how it is presented. Although it can be pointed, it has been pointed to me and countless others.

It has been pointed to a lot of those who are here. You've got pretty mature understanding. Come on, jump in. Say something. Say something. Say something. I have a question. I'm thirsty. Yeah, tell me. I have a question grant. Please. Say it by the question. Please. So I think my question is, like when you say, so when I investigate, you know, reading books, investigate the person, right? So I'm looking and then, you know, I see that, you know, sort of the person is made of, like, thoughts that talk about it, I guess. And then when you look deeper, there's a point where, okay, there's no thing, right?

Maybe there's nothing in terms of, like, I am nothing. But then it still leaves me with, I am still here. Yeah. Because I recognize I am here and I'm seeing. So it's like, you know, it's like I'm this guy or something behind, like, a TV screen looking out. Yes. But then I still feel like I am somebody who's looking out. Yeah, see if you are somebody, because you are. That's the only thing that you ever know that you are, that you exist. And now, Terry, now, please. Because he explains it from his own experience in such a beautiful way. That was the last thing for him to go, the equating sense of presence with the I.

So please, please. Yeah, Kat caught me looking at her when you said what you said, because that was exactly what I experienced. And I got to a point where it became absolutely apparent that the notion or the idea of a me or an ego was just something transparent. It was just thoughts that would come and go. And initially, I got to see that, you know, thoughts come and go. And, you know, I had to really, really look at that and accept the fact that I'm not choosing any of those thoughts. Because if I could choose the thoughts that were going on in my head, I'd be choosing a lot of different stuff that was going on in there.

You know, so stuff would just happen, you know. Or, I would choose not to think. If I could, I'm just going to break. You know, switch the light off with us, switch the power off. For a couple of hours, have a break and I'll switch it back on at four o'clock, you know. So I realised that the powerlessness in what was occurring in my mind all the time. The difficult part, so I, you know, there was the seeing of the thoughts that were coming and going. The next thing which was much, much more difficult to really see was the sense of me. And I'm not talking about what you were just talking about.

So it's pre that. This meanness. Like, yeah, okay. I can see that thoughts just come and go and I don't have any control over it. It just happens. I have no idea, like Kat was saying a moment ago, what's going to come out of my mouth. It's just spontaneous. And I don't know what thought's going to pop up and then disappear. Or how long a thought's going to stay and then disappear. I remember having times where I was so distressed. Distressed? Stressed. Distressed. Stressed. Over a particular thought that was going on in my mind. It's creating anxiety in my body. And I was really, really concerned about it.

As far as I was concerned, that particular thought that was going on in my mind was so damn important. And then, all of a sudden, I completely, without no choice of my own, I completely forgot about whatever that was. And the first thing I experienced was relief for a split second. And then the next thing that popped up was, what was that? I need to find that. That was really important. Whatever that was that I was pondering, that was so important and I was stuck again. So, you know, seeing that initial seeing that thoughts just come and they go. That's relatively easy to see. If you're patient and you sit with it long enough and you kind of surrender to it and just get honest is the bottom line.

Just really get honest. Just see what's going on. That's relatively easy to see, although it can still take time. The harder thing to see is this me. Because the me still thinks, at that point in time, that okay, there's me here watching thoughts coming and going. Yeah? And the tricky part with that is that me that believes it's there watching thoughts coming and going is also the thoughts coming and going. The thought that says, I am the me sitting and looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even ascent, yeah. Yes. So that can be, that can take a lot of honesty, actually. I know why I'm using that word tonight, but it's interesting.

That's what's coming out. Yes. Um, that can take a bit of time. It's much, much easier to go, yeah, yeah, I can see it. I can see the thoughts coming and going. And, yeah. You can see that I'm a thought. So, the next movement, if you like, from that is then seeing that that me that believes it's there watching and seeing the thoughts coming and going is also nothing but the thoughts that are coming and going. So, there's this sense of being separate from it, observing the thoughts coming and going, which is actually true. Yeah. There is, there is a, there is a separation from it.

However, what, at that point of saying, okay, there's, yes, I can see thoughts just coming and see the me is nothing but the thoughts coming and going. I can see all that and I can experience all that and I can acknowledge all that and get honest about it. Yes, that's what it is, but I still feel like I'm here. Mm-hmm. What the fuck? Yeah. Now what? Now what? Now what? Yeah. And that's, for me, was the last little bit of rub, if you like. Yeah. And what, what that sense of me has done all its life, from as way back as you could possibly remember, that it was completely unaware of, was not only was it identifying with the thoughts that were coming and going, but it was also identifying with this sense of presence.

It doesn't realise that. It totally doesn't realise that. Just like it didn't realise that, you know, it wasn't real, or that it is nothing but containing the thoughts, that screen of thoughts. So that, that, so you get left with, well, I don't know, I still feel pretty fucked up, and I still feel like I'm here. Yeah, you are here. Mm-hmm. You are here. But that final little bit of a me that's now identifying with that sense of presence, the reason that's so difficult to let go of is because the me interprets that as, okay, I've got to die. This sense of presence that the me is the...

That's the last little thing that's linked into, which is that sense and the body, those two things, links into that, it's understanding of what it believes awakening to be or what enlightenment is going to be is, okay, that has got to go too, because I've been told, I've got to get out of the way, I've just got to dissolve, I can't be here anymore. So the last little thing that it hangs on to is that sense of presence. And the reality is you are left with, yeah, but here I am. And that's so true. That's so true. Here you are. But what you are not is that last semblance of that sense of me that's claiming ownership of that sense of presence.

That's the last semblance. That's the last semblance. That's the last semblance to God. So is that almost an acceptance of something like that being there? Like, are you saying that there's an acceptance of a feeling of being located? It's just seeing. It's just, really, it's just seeing. It's seeing. It's seeing that that's what's occurring. It's something that you can only see, and it's something that you can only experience. For yourself. No words that I say, you know, you're going to grab hold and go, oh, yeah, okay, got it. Because that'll be the me down here, I got it. You need to be able to see through that.

But it's just seeing through those various stages of the illusion. And the last little thing to go is that sense of me, which is identifying with the sense of here I am. And you don't need that. And you don't need that me there to know you are. Here I am. So that's the last little bit. But it's something that you need to see it for yourself. You need to look for yourself. Just look. And keep looking. And look. And be honest, really honest about what you're looking at. Not what you're looking for. Not what you're looking for. You're not looking for anything. You're just, this is about the truth.

You're just trying to see what is true here. What is actually really true. So it sounds like I'd be looking at a sense of being located. Or there's a looking of, looking at like a sense of being located and feeling that, you know, even though that's there, that doesn't mean that I am that sensation or I am that concept of being located. Yeah, well, everything that just came out of your mouth was a concept. Really, isn't it? But mind you, everything that just spilled out of my mouth for the last few minutes is a concept too. And is there a problem with location, if you don't think about it?

No, but I feel then it kind of admits to a person being there if there's like a location. Yeah, is there a person in a car if car is located somewhere? You know, the body is located. It's like the computer has the cameras. They are located somewhere. But does it mean there is an entity in there? There is a presence. Computer is present. Car is present. They have being. They exist. But does it mean that there is a little dwarf, a little Santa Claus inside? See, sense of presence, what Ted is saying, sense of presence is who you are. Satchitananda, being, knowing that you are and loving to be.

That is who you are. Now, on this sense of presence, it will never ever go. It always stays. The being is unchanging screen. It's the basic screen. On this one, there comes an idea, but I am separate. But I am little me located in the body. This is just the camera through which life is looking. There is another camera through which life is looking. Life is looking through different points in consciousness. It's looking at itself. The sense of presence is there. And the thought. This is me here looking. Look at that thought me. Bob is often inviting people. Look at the me. Who is that me?

Does it have any substance? Is it anything there apart from the thought? Because the smart thing about the conceptual image is the conceptual image is not only every past moment that I'm believing that I had, but it's also having a capacity to be, having a capacity to breathe, to see. This is now the image, the eye, the entity that is seeing. But is it really the entity that is seeing? You close your eyes and can the entity see? Nope, it can't. So it's not the entity seeing. But is the eye seeing? Plug the eye and put it on the shelf? No. What is seeing? If it's not the me entity seeing, if it's not the eye, the camera seeing, what is doing the seeing?

What is being? What is being? And now Bob is also using another beautiful analogy. You take the dead body, the corpse and put it next to the alive body and see the difference. They both have the eyes. But this one can see and this one can't. So what is it that is seeing? The precise difference between the corpse and the live body is what is seeing. The life essence, the intelligence energy or the presence of awareness, the aliveness, is what is looking through your eyes. But you say, no, no, no, this is me and this is located. Is it like a sense of saying like life is living and not like an individual?

That's right. You're being lived. Yes. You're actually being lived. Yeah. Totally. Are you replacing cells in your body? Are you pumping blood in your veins? Are you beating your heart? Sorry. Yeah. Are you responsible for any thoughts about me? Is there something? Is there something separate from the thinking? It's going, hmm, okay, now I'm going to choose to think this thought. Can you find anything separate from the thoughts? That is saying, all right, now I'm going to choose to think this. Now I'm going to choose to think that. It happens so fast. It happens so spontaneously. It has nothing to do with you. All the thoughts that go on in your mind are completely impersonal.

It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Nothing. At all. Including the absence thereof. Yeah. Even though they're relevant to your situation, just like the computer has the files relevant to the programs or projects that are being done. So the relevance of thoughts, that, you know, the thoughts, they tell me my name, my job, about my family, doesn't matter. They're still part of the way. They're still part of the algorithm. They're still part of the algorithm. They're still completely spontaneous. They, you know, like the seeing is attached to the eyes. They're all kind of one thing. It's the way life gives itself a little windows to see itself.

The whole biocomputer is the way life gives itself. Now see, because the illusion is that there is an entity, there is a person doing all this. And this is where the investigation comes. Pinpoint that person. See what it is, where it is, who it is, and then where are you looking from? Once you see the person, see who it is looking. Who knows about the person. A year ago, my father died. A little over a year ago. While I was on the airplane coming back from Australia, as a matter of fact. And I decided to go see the corpse because I thought I would bring on the grieving process.

I want to get it over with. I'm not realizing that I was actually, by trying to get it over with, I wasn't allowing it and I was prolonging it, right? Nonetheless, I went to go see his body. And it was, I recommend everyone go see a corpse. Especially one you knew when it was live. I think, I thought, I think I'll do that when I die. I want to open casket now because I want to say, do you think that's her? Do you still think that's her? Do you still think that's where the body? Because when you see one, man, it's surreal. You know, like that thing that I'd seen with life in it.

My whole life. To see it without life in it. Without that life essence. Wow. The thought that came up was, wow, that's not proof that we're not the body. I don't know what is. So I, you know, what I think about, hmm? Yeah. That's, that's rocks. You can even do it with an animal. I mean, if you see roadkill somewhere, you can probably do it with that. You know, just see, wow, you can kind of tell. It's just, you can tell. You don't have to listen for a heartbeat. You don't have to see if they're breathing. It's such a strong, like, that's not him. No one at home.

And you don't, you don't even have to, no. You just know. And his coloring wasn't that different or anything. You know, he looked kind of stiff. I mean, that was the first thought that came to mind was, now I know why they call him stiffs. Because he looked really stiff. Okay. But aside from the stiffness, you could be stiff. Do I look dead? I don't know. You could just kind of tell. You know, I'm stiff, but, hmm. It was, it was, yeah, it just reminds me of that. It's also a feeling, I guess. Huh? Sometimes it's a feeling. It was a feeling. It was a, it was a feeling and a knowing.

It was like a, hmm. It was a, it was a, it was a knowing. It was a, hmm. That's, that's not him. You know? And, and, yeah, that was a, that was a real strong knowing. And, and the, and the thought that comes up now is just that old quote, what we are are not, we're not human beings having spiritual experiences. We're spiritual being. I like to, I'm taking the S off. Okay. We're spiritual being having a human experience. Okay. We just are. Okay. There's a deepening that needs to occur because just as recently as this morning, an upset was happening, as I was thinking, there was an I that could think, I got to do this, and, oh, yeah, I shouldn't, he couldn't, like, and then upset, this, these thoughts, and that, it's, this, this, I love what you're saying, again, is this, this I that I'm thinking I am, again, it's just another thought.

You know? That's, that's just another thought, this idea of I, when I say the word I, I have to look. Well, wow, I was starting to look this morning as I was getting upset. Who's the I? And I guess next time that comes up, maybe the thought will come up, can you notice that I is also just a thought? You know? That's, that's useful to see beyond that. You may have emotional involvement also, but when you see that the I is just a thought plus emotional involvement, you can actually be aware of the emotional involvement. And if you don't label emotional involvement, it usually is going to be just a vibrating pattern of energy.

It's just going to be a little bit of a buzz, maybe in a throat or in a solar plexus. If you were experiencing upset, the upset would be probably showing up somewhere in the heart, maybe, or, you know, some sort of a contraction. Anger. It was anger. Or whatever. Yeah, if you don't label it, it's just, it's just another sensation showing up on the screen of awareness. So there is a thought and sensation. Where is the entity who is having the thought and the sensation? They just appear on the empty screen of awareness. The thought, I, and the sensation. And when there is ever any other ways, when there is ever a situation, when on the empty screen of awareness shows up anything else than the sensation, perception, or a thought, or combination of all of them.

So there is always just basic screen, which is nothing, which is the knowing, being, and loving to be, the Satchitananda. And the content, the I thought, the sensation related, and the perception, the content. That's the content of the screen. It's wonderful the words you've used if you're a bit more abstract, like me. Like for me, I don't really, I've never seen a self. People have told me about the sense of self, I've never seen it. Well, look, there's just, I really just stop at the pause of thought, you know, when you pause the thought, what is there? Yeah, it's just the word, I guess. Yeah, just the visual, or whatever you remember, and the snapshot of what it was, means, that's more of a visual, yeah.

And, so, I just try that on for size, and, and that, there's no location anywhere. There's no sense of self, perspective of viewing from none of that. If you just stop there. If you don't go on, and, and start, when people say, oh, you have a sense of self, you have this and that, and then, oh, I can't be able to put those in, because they say that they're there. No, you're trying to conceptualize that experience. Yeah. Yeah, and I stopped before that. You know, like a working model. Yeah, so if you're a very big thinker, big picture thinker, then that might just be easy for you just to go there.

And then, of course, persistent, I, the stories will personally come in as the pattern is trying to defend whatever it's trying to do, you know, give some sense of security for more conditioning. But it's always helped me to go back to, it's just a pattern, it just arises, you know, I saw very clearly early on, when I discovered non-duality, flash of a little movie about what was going to happen there. And then, oh, I think I will, blah, blah, everything in that little movie, totally out of nowhere, not associated with anything. And that's never left, like, it's never occurred to me that, to perceive it a different way, it might tomorrow, you know, I don't care.

It just hasn't shifted from that, you know, it really just pops up, from nowhere, from nobody, nobody's watching it. If you stop before, you place somebody in to watch it. Yeah, so if your brain can stop there occasionally, you know, there's a couple. So then it will just be, like, a space of the world, and then there's, like, thoughts that come up, and then, like, an action happens. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. That's what's happening moment to moment. And apart from that, there is a knowing of it. So whatever is appearing on the screen of awareness, whether there is an eye thought, or there is an action thought, or there is some sort of a judgment, or whatever is happening, or sensation, they are all known.

That's where Satchitananda, knowing, being, knowing, loving to be, or cognizing emptiness, there is a knowing of it. Like how, see, every sensation thought, or every content of the awareness is being known. So you are that knowing, not the one who knows, but the pure knowing. For the mind is incomprehensible, because for the mind there has to be a knower to be knowing. But there can't be a knowing without the knower, and there can't be a known without the knowing. So it is all one and the same thing. If there is a knowing, really just a knowing, non-conceptual knowing, of the content, you are that knowing, not the content.

Would that show up in dreams, where you're the witness in your dream, and you see a scene unfolding, and it's very different from anything that you know in life? Oh, yeah. Yet, Spirit is showing you, you are not the person you think you are, but perhaps consider this playing out. I love that example. This is absolutely, this is beautiful. And I love using the dream. And Bob is also very often using it. How we are dreaming a different body, with different eyes, because our eyes, the physical eyes, are closed. And yet everything is seen. Sometimes, and I used to remember my dreams, I did a couple of lucid dreaming courses.

And I used to find myself in the mirror to be a different person, to have different, I even, I have been mad a couple of times. Yeah. It was fun. I've checked it out on every level. Yeah, and it is a great hint. You're right. And then also Bob is often saying that if you would pick up the dream every night when you were, when you left it in the morning, would you be able to differentiate the dream from the, from the normal life? Yeah. It's quite surprising. It's just sometimes it's quite shocking, like to see your dreams unfold. But the dream will always be gentle until you need a bit of a shake.

Yep. And then the intensity will build up. And then these parts of self. Yeah. That you perhaps haven't been aware of will, will come out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But there's so many pieces, so there cannot be one eye. Absolutely. Absolutely. A possibility of spirit and everything. Yeah. And I think that's where projection comes in and out of the story as well. Where parts of ourselves we don't want to recognize, we project onto others. Mm-hmm. Totally. That's how the whole game comes into existence. There's some broken thoughts, broken parts, broken, unaccepted. Because as the totality, I'm everything. I'm the poor, I'm the rich, I'm the broken, I'm the raped, I'm everything.

And some of it doesn't get due attention, it's being suppressed, it's being pushed down. And then it shows itself in a different form. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what gives it all the richness, all the depth to the dream. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing to contemplate upon, that dream world. It's particularly the fact which is, I really like that part of the dream which, in which, you know, when people talk about non-duality, they say that, yeah, come on, but you can't say that everything appears right now at the same time, including the past. Because for the pyramids, it needed five, ten thousand, whatever, thousands of years.

But then you take the example of the dream at night. How many thousands of years did you need to appear the pyramid in the dream? They just come up like this. They just, and do you even know you're dreaming? Mostly, you only know when you wake up. Yeah. Same here, you can wake up from the dream, and you can realize that you're dreaming the past. Right now, you're dreaming ten thousand years and ten billion years. You're dreaming the beginning of galaxies. You're dreaming your own children right at this moment. And they already, this moment, has been a result of the dreaming. This is the potentiality.

This is the great, magnificent power that this manifestation creates. It creates the time to assert its own reality. Because having that time backed in, and believing in that time, everything becomes so solid. In the dream, when we dream the dream scenario, there is also the idea that, oh yeah, I belong here. I don't remember my name, but I'm not concerned with it. But I have something to do, somewhere to go, and nothing is questioned. The walls are solid. And where did it all go? Where did it come from? And I wake up, where does it go now? Where are the people who were suffering in the dream?

Where is the injustice? Where is the guy who was chasing me, trying to kill me? I even died a couple of times in the dream. That was amazing. Not to mention flying in the dream, which is oof. And it's non-linear, but it can be past, present, and future. It can be all in at the one point. And you can see how that has led to this, is leading to that. And there's no separation of time, space, or events. That is just such a potent pointer, this one. It's gorgeous. Yeah, Bob uses it quite often. Thank you for reminding me, because you know, everyone hears it.

The beauty of these meetings, and it doesn't happen on any other meetings as far as I know, is that everyone actually can contribute. Whatever insight or realization they have, doesn't matter whether they are completely clear 24-7, or they have profound insight one at a time, they can contribute. And those insights can wake or move something, make a resonance in the heart of the other. And the, oh gosh, I love the pointer of dream. It's just so potent. It's like, you know this one, you don't really need any others. It is explaining you totally everything. So much. Yes. Yeah. Like you can't, you can't really assert.

You don't have your identity anymore as a person having a dream because you know that you are a different person every time you're dreaming. How beautiful. I'm just a bit confused about the relationship between the dreaming self and this self that we...the psychological self, I suppose. The psychological self in... In this dream. In this dream that we are dreaming right now. Yes. But in the end is something in this state of true being. Is there a psychological self? Well, there is definitely a personality pattern. Just the same way like you look at the dog. You will have the dog that likes playing more or you will have lazy dog or cat.

You see those two cats, they're completely different personalities. So you see now every guru, whoever Osho is different to Eckhart Tolle, the different personality patterns. So life needs the personality patterns to express through. Right. Through the cat or through the person, the personality will be there. But the identification with personality, the idea that I am this personality, that one is gone. Right. That the personality is still expressing itself. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just like life needs the vehicle of expression. Just like the, you know, like you have a different flute. Bob has a couple of beautiful American, Native American flutes. You can bring them on the wind and they, and push some dots and they will, they will express the melody, the sound.

So the same way, the life expressing through this body will, will have awkward accent and all the other different sounds. And through other bodies, it will have yet different sounds. Yes. If there was no personality and there was no, there was no body, there wouldn't be an expression. And, and of course, it means that there would be, there would be all the scandals that we know about different teachers still having the, you know, the sort of a weakness towards younger girls and stuff like this. Bob is not like that, even though I'm half his age. And yes, we do cuddle up when we sleep. But that's, that's completely different.

You still always have, there's probably no pattern that's ever not had a brief moment of self defense in it. Even if it's so brief, it drops away immediately. Maybe thought never comes with it. Maybe emotions never come with it. But, you know, and maybe it's just noticed as sensations. But from what I hear tell, there's never been a, like most, most of the time sense of no self where a little moment hasn't just briefly come up. A little moment of what? Back to self, you know, even so slightly, even though it doesn't progress very far, maybe not even to half a thought, you know, or, or maybe a little thought loop or something, you know, that, um.

Defense is built in, just like in animals. It is part of the functioning of the bio-computer. It's not me being defensive. It's the body knows when it's hungry, when it needs to eat or go to the toilet. It doesn't need absolute, the, the person, the, the separate identity or the character there, the persona is completely redundant. It doesn't, it's not needed for anything. It's only, it's developed for the sake, I would say, of awakening, really. Because if you don't have anything to awaken from, you can't fully appreciate the appearance, the beauty of the dream. Because cuts cannot. I know people have abided quite a, you know, quite a lot of no self and also go into like, you know, so-called ego for, you know, quite a wee bit, every now and then, you know.

And someone, I've heard someone say, oh, so who's talking now? Oh, the little self, okay. You know, yeah, it's, it's not that cut and dry. So I think that can be a barrier. You know, people get this, a sort of reflex idea that can be thought about too much, if you don't mind. Mm. Instead of just let guys, you know, there is some continuum as well. Can I just clear up the point? Yeah. That you made. Um, you know, you might think this is a bit, me being a bit semantic, but I just want to be sure you're aware of what came out of you.

Mm-hmm. Um, a moment ago you said, it's just the personality expressing itself. Mm-hmm. Yep. It's not. The personality is being expressed. Right. See, by, by saying the personality is, is expressing its self, is giving it life. Mm-hmm. It's giving it a place to be. Mm-hmm. It's making it real. It's making it something, that it's expressing itself. It's not. Very good point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The personality just gets expressed, like thoughts just gets expressed. Mm-hmm. Like life just gets expressed. Yeah. And, and that's also a very good point, and this is an important point, because again, it clears the duality, apparent duality. It's not exactly that life is expressing through the personality, or life is expressing through the body.

Mm-hmm. It's life expressing as the body also. Mm-hmm. Because everything is that life. There's non-dual, it's one without the other. That body is also expression of life, personality also, ego also, expression of life. So there's expressing, but no expression. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No expressor. Just expressing, experiencing, living, being, seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, pure functioning. It's just the functioning. And on this functioning, superimposed, a little believed in entity that is taking credit. No, I do it. I see. I think. I, you know, it's just, it's just a belief, layer, over layer of belief on pure functioning. Saying that it's not life doing all this, but me.

I am responsible. I am doing it. But that's just a belief. And one of the patternings is to apparently see more or less psychological patterns coming, you know, going forever, or not going, or going a bit more, you know. Some people are quite openly very happy that they don't get looked that further, you know. It's just different things that happen in life. Because, yeah, some patterning is somehow more engaged, even though it's not a real thing, and the disappearance of triggers that create, you know, ego hang-ups for a moment. And some patterning kind of seems to want to shine the torch on everything. So this, this is, I'm going to use the word teaching.

Ugh. Yeah. Anyway, I'm going to use it. Um, this teaching is about non-duality, which means non-two, only one. Now, that's either a true statement or a false one. There is either one, or duality is quite real. And what non-duality, the teaching of non-duality tries to get people to do, is to investigate for themselves whether or not there is actually a me here. Whether or not there's a separate entity here that feels separate from everyone else, and if indeed that is real, and where is it, and what is it? That's, that's the invitation. Is to sit, is to turn and look for yourself. And if you're not doing that, what the me will do, it'll sit here and grasp onto as many concepts as it possibly can, thinking it's, it's going to get something.

That the me is going to get something. Yeah, the awakening is from the me. Yeah, the awakening is when the me is absent, if you like. It's really difficult, it's really, really difficult to put into words, but that's why, you know, it often gets said in non-duality, all we can do is point. Whatever I say, ain't it. Yeah. No matter what I say, it's not it. But for me to say, turn and have a look for yourself, that's very different. Then you get to actually know for yourself. You know, we come in here, initially, or when you first get exposed to this, you know. We, I was saying to my son today, it's like you go through three phases, you know.

You come in here, not knowing that you don't know. Just don't know. I don't know that I don't know. And then, you know, things get pointed out and you start to see things and you start to investigate yourself. Turning in and investigating yourself. And then the second thing that comes along is, Jesus, I know that I don't know. I actually know that I don't know now. And that can feel a little bit insecure. You know, it's kind of shit. But it's great. That's a great place to be. Yeah. It's such a cool place to be. And then you go from that to, I know that I know.

And I know that I don't know. It's still knowing. You come to a place that I know that I know. It's funny how that was the meaning of life. I wasn't even aware of that. No? Oh. Evil. No. No. No. No, no. I'm 42. You really need to look… Part of that initial looking process is questioning whether or not you actually have self-will. Can I actually choose stuff that's going on in my life? No. What are you doing? All my actions, generally, are based on what I think. and if you have absolutely no control at all over what's going on in there what's popping up next what's disappearing how long it's going to stay so on so forth i mean where where where is that so-called separate me that believes that it's moving in a certain direction or or is creating action he's actually doing rather where's the doer where's this where's the the doer that has free will is choosing whatever it wants to do or not do in life if you if there's absolutely no control if you're completely 100 powerless over what goes on in here where's free will no idea what thought's going to pop up next i used to talk to people about uh free will i mean that's something that i cannot believe in anymore and it's really liberating to let go of that belief yeah that's awesome because it lets you let's yourself and everybody else off the hook um because there was somebody like my own example well i have two actually one for myself okay it was a um almost a year ago when my cat jethro died and and i was beating myself up for the fact that i wasn't being present enough before he died i was always running around and doing stuff and i'm on the phone with kitty cat here and and and she uh she says you're delusional you think you're the doer and then look and go yeah i didn't do that's true okay i mean thoughts happen i remember talking to somebody else about free will and i said well there's no free will if you think you have free will what's your next thought going to be they said well i don't choose my thoughts i by my responses i choose i eventually it came to me that's just another thought just like there's different kinds of thoughts we've got memories and that's one thought and uh maybe how to work out a math problem that'd be a different kind of thought and you know a choice is another type of thought and it's just another thing that just comes up and if you really just look and honest with yourself you might think i'll just debate and i'm going back and forth in my head but these are again like right now the thought is i'm going to do that that's just happening i chose that see but that's another thought that just came up to do like that right that just happened and and there and and i didn't go five minutes ago i'm going to go like this there was no choice it's just happening and then the for the other the compassion for other and how it helped me so much really comes down to forgiveness really there's somebody who really really really really hurt me okay it's very done some things that most people if you go into the story they'd be like whoa yeah what an asshole what a bitch whoa yeah you're a victim blah blah blah blah blah but when i can look at this and i can go well if i'm not the chooser of the thoughts doesn't mean i want to hang out with it by the way but but if i didn't choose the thoughts if i don't choose what's what's what's gonna come out you know i'm not choosing neither she you know if anything could be any different than what it is it would have been nothing can be any different that's why i'm knowing now everything is perfect absolutely perfect this network nothing could be anything else if it could have been it would have been but in order for something you can't really walk a mile in somebody else's shoes because to walk in somebody else's shoes even if you're an identical twin and the same dna the same parents the same friends the same experience the same teachers you're going to have a different perception okay from your identical twin eventually or maybe even from the start but you and that perception my ex-boyfriend the zen buddhist used to say the perception of the facts become the facts and so it's going they're going to be having a very different way of looking at things and and you don't choose those perceptions either i mean maybe the idea to come to this room came up somebody came to you or this did you plan on meeting this crazy american lady no no you couldn't plan that you know you couldn't and it's all just everything is so perfect it couldn't be anything other bob has a really nice pointer about it he says if you really think that anything should be different what is it that you modify outer and correct it with it's not the thought it's only always the thought the idea that things should be different that the world should be saved that the situation a person or any reaction should be different so he says if that happens if that preoccupation that obsession happens that this is no good that it should be different he's often giving uh advices in a little little three words together he says leave it unaltered unmodified uncorrected so this is as it is if you want to change it you will have to go to the concept and you will have to give it a different meaning that's a lot of work leave it as it is if you if you really want to see what it is ask yourself what's wrong with right now if i don't think about it because without the thought without the interpretation or the meaning what can be less than what it is even the word perfect is a beautiful word for the sake of pointing but when we say what's wrong with right now if we don't think about it even the word perfect is a word is a thought everything is just as it is just as it is right at this moment and if is there a me if i don't think about it now even this is perfect as it is and this is a glimpse of the natural state because the natural state seeing hearing tasting touching smelling is fully present moment to moment is because the attention is habitually running into the story into the thinking so again what is is altered modified and corrected with the thinking because all that stream of attention goes to the head and sustain that fictitious little me if i ask what's wrong with right now if i don't think about it i'm back into natural functioning and this is what the enlightenment is this is the moment because the mind will kick in in a second and it doesn't mean to keep the mind quiet mind is okay to function if you only see it for one moment that without thinking you're still functioning you still are the sense of presence not the sense of me but the sense of being sense of being present is still there that's it that's all that you need to know you are the presence you are the knowing now over layer of concepts and ideas that there is a me that is being present that me that is functioning or seeing that can be alleviated for just a moment if you ask yourself is there a me if i don't think about it or what is there if i don't think about it or what is wrong with right now what is wrong with this moment if i don't think about it in that moment of pausation you have the glimpse of pure functioning now if you recognize the basic screen in in this brief moment thinking is welcome when you recognize the basic screen and you know you are that basic screen you know yourself to be the pure knowing thinking is welcome it comes back and it brings up the functioning it brings up it looks around it is present it see maybe who needs to help it's okay it's fine thinking is utilized it's not utilizing you anymore you're not the slave to your thoughts anymore you're not following them blindly basically you're using thoughts rather than thoughts using you and again duality here who is the you that is using it is the life pure life itself pure functioning itself expressing us the thoughts through the thoughts but it is really very very good functional advice to follow what bob is saying just check in any situation what's real without the overlay of concept what's real if we just focus on hearing seeing tasting touching smelling and we just drop off that concepts or park them aside move them for a moment all the ideas ideas of different locations of future or past they are all conceptual there is nothing really happening other than this moment as it is if not for thinking and this is what basically develops that reacquired taste for the pure being that diamond of good fortune like nisargadatta used to call it being with the love of being just just loving to be i love that that thing that you can't have a problem without a thought yeah you can't you can't check it test it if you can find if you can conceive of a problem without the concept yeah please challenge me challenge bob bob is going to be home i hope you'll come back and see him i don't know when maybe in a week time and if a man speaks in the woods and there's no woman there to hear him is he still wrong of course yes and and now i i just i'm just gonna say this uh the meeting usually usually end at nine and at and you are all welcome to hang out and exchange whatever the insights you have but i'm just gonna stop it and i'm gonna call bob because if not he's gonna call me in five minutes so thank you very very much i hope that any of it resonated if not maybe something else because life will take you wherever you need to be if not this one that bob had people who came 20 years ago and they didn't hear a word but the life took them wherever they were needed to appear and they they came back in 20 years and they could they got second chance and and it's again it's it's simple it's it's really up to life whether it will happen or or would want the person the entity can't do anything it's only the life recognizing the absence of the person the absence which is already fully absent it's not that the person has to do something to become absent or to disappear or to dissolve itself no it's impossible how can santa claus do anything if he if it is a mental construct if it is a concept there's never been any santa claus there's never been a ghost or phantom called me the life was always functioning just like it grows the trees and this is this is the invitation and we're having the meetings three times a week so you're welcome to show up when bob is back we're gonna charge little donation because he is a pensioner and he we need to keep him alive so i'm still working so i'm okay and thank you thank you