Non Duality Sailor Bob's style with Kat and Terry

Yes. That's right. My first car was in the UK. Yeah, okay. So we can skip the names, huh? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this was on the meeting when Max actually had a go with Tony. Yeah. That was brilliant. I mean, it's beautiful. It's so spot on. Like, oh my gosh. He says, we didn't come here to do the PhD and to sit in the head and just split the hair. Yeah. He, and he is really committed and he's really desperate. He came to wake up. Yeah. So that's what he's here for. That's the drive. Yeah. The natural drive. Beautiful. Beautiful. And this is really something that, you know, when you, Tony, are still attracted to the distractions, that's a thing which could be actually helpful.

The devotion. Bob is only roughly touching on it. Right. The idea of, of devotion towards the consciousness, towards the reality. Because, see, when you are in love, how much you, you're gonna do for that love. You're gonna find the sign of it everywhere. You're gonna effortlessly rest your attention on it. You're gonna naturally look for it. Like, everything becomes a pointer. Like, you're gonna naturally see the signs of it, the silence, the space. It will, it will just, it will, it will show up for you. If your heart is in, in this kind of loving affection, then even if there is an idea of a person still there, that person is in love.

That person is, is happy. That person, well, and that person in love actually dissolves because the moment where the, what really is the, the identity or the entity or the person, it is the sense of luck. It is the sense, the sense of unworthiness, the void, the incompleteness. That's what we call the ego. That's the drive to get, accumulate a mass. That's the drive for, Oh, so he's coming. Thank you. So that, that's the desires, you know, desires to get something. Come in, come in. So if that, if that type of activity, that sort of karma, action, desire, if that one is absent, hey, grab your seat.

Then, then you don't really, you can't really even, even conceive of the ego. You know, like, if, if you think of the moments in your life, when your desire was just fulfilled. And, or you were in a beautiful place in there, where everything was absolutely perfect. Like nothing was wrong. There was, there was just a sense of joining with the flow of life. Or you were looking at the beautiful view somewhere. And then there was just sense of ease, the sense of joy, the sense of love. So where is the ego in a place like this? Where is the me and the other in a place like this?

This is the natural state. The, the natural state is a state of joy. If you are in that state of joy, there is no problem. There is nothing to question. There is nothing to look for an ego or me or anything. So naturally, when you are in that space of loving affection towards the reality, the me is not a problem. You would really have to construct it back again to have it as a problem. The me presents the problem when you are actually suffering, when you desire something else than what is. You want the reality to be, to be different. You want to become someone in future.

And that's suffering. That's damn painful. And this is where, where actually when Max was having a go, Melanie, I was just because a couple of days ago, there was Tony, the Dzogchen Tony. And he was coming with the scholarship ideas of Buddhism, different words. And, and Max, Terry's boy was here also. And he, he was really upset that he's wasting time with all the theory. He says, I came here to wake up, not to do the PhD. I have enough of it. Like, be practical. So we just started from the idea of waking up, like really putting a priority on waking up. But the other, the flip side of the coin is what is waking up, who is waking up.

And everyone's different. What's wrong for someone? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it for someone else? Yeah, that's right. But his commitment was, was really beautiful. The way he actually presented this earnestness was heartwarming. Earnestness is right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, the, you know, the sad reality of it is that the one who really desperately wants to wake up is never, ever, ever going to wake up. Because people are so attached to the idea of wanting to wake up rather than... Hmm. And also... That it is. Yeah. But that has to guide you. And very often there is a dream, like there is a me dreaming that waking up is going to be eternal bliss.

It's going to be something, not this, not as it is. It's not going to be an ordinary awareness. It's going to be something different, something better. And they are craving for this better state or better whatever. But see, this is, and this is where this one should actually be light on the table very clearly. Who is waking up and what from and what to. Like what are we waking up from and what are we waking up to. Because otherwise we just, we just wait for some imaginary event that is, that is going to happen to the me. Like I, I am going to arrive at that place or that state where this big bang is going to happen and everything is going to be happily ever after.

So, yeah, that's, that is something that we have to wake up from first. That, that idea. Well, it's divisive. You know, it's here and there and it's... Yeah. Yeah, it's often part of the journey because I, I was attracted to the, to the idea of Nirvana and eternal bliss also. And my seeking was seeking for freedom from suffering and eternal pleasure. Because naturally feeling that sense of incompleteness, we learn to sedate it with pleasure and excitement. So, Nirvana or ultimate liberation is of course unlimited amount of pleasure and excitement. Like the amount which will completely relieve you from need for more. Because you, you're there.

Well, that's, that's what often starts the search and that's, that's perfect. That's okay. But along the way, unfortunately this dream has to be let go of. This dream has to, you know, like the one who is dreaming that eternal pleasure. Along the way, as, as they have more and more of a glimpses of insights into the nature of, of reality. That dream has to go. And often it, it leaves people in a state like, ah, yeah, okay, so what's the point? I am not the doer. I can't do anything. I'm not even going to get that pleasure. Like that shit, you know, that's, what for?

But yeah. Again the one who is trying to wake up is still the personal self. And as we are told from day 1 with Bob there is no personal self. so waking up is from the personal self when the personal self is absent who's who's waking up there's nobody to wake up so there's nobody to to get enlightened nobody to get the pleasure so in the absence of anyone who is going to get anything from it life just flows nothing is everything is as it always been only it's not being related only it doesn't happen to the person anymore it's not it's not me that has got it or has arrived and it's not me that has that knows something that some other people don't know and now gosh so enlightened and so wise actually is so opposite it's so opposite like what we were talking just before the meeting suddenly you wake up from believing thoughts no thought is true not even the very strict dietary investments or religious or whatever they're just they're all dreams they're all thoughts and then they they all operational sure they all kind of utilizing in functioning yeah yeah just just see them as blah blah blah like how important are those i mean and then i see how you know you hear something and it influences you and it's you know pretty superficial when it gets down to not believing in your thoughts and yeah but you know for all my rituals and things that i you know carry on my diet and exercise you know whatever whatever been it's included in the conditioning in the makeup of the whole personality structure it's going to be utilized the way it is yeah it's just like that life essence is singing through the magpie in this sound and through the nightingale in that sound because that's the conditioning of the bird yeah and then i see people who are doing absolutely contrary to what i think is the right way and they're thriving you know yeah yeah and that's not them doing it that's just life utilizing different patterns yeah we're all different and we can't choose you can't choose what you know exactly well i'm not sure about that there's no free will i don't know because if i could have chosen my life it would have been a lot different yeah okay well it could be one and be the same it's pretty difficult isn't it because there's so many interactions no matter how much planning you do and everything that don't work out that way and like with tony with his ancient scriptures or whatever well the tibetans are very studied yeah as part of their practice they have very ancient texts that they study as part of their practice and it works for them i mean that's a yeah yeah i'm actually i'm i'm really happy for him to to find that he found his own path and hinduism but he's suffering he does seem to be doesn't he didn't look like something i really wanted he's he's suffering because he because he's so right about what he believes and nobody wants to listen and he feels like he's trying to find a group of students where he would be sitting and teaching yeah which is not here and that's the difference this is not duality as opposed to yeah i did suggest him to check the meetup and he did he's he found to put these groups but he says now they were close-minded and indoctrinated just like us yeah and that's how life is playing that's how life is enjoying itself through this uh pattern which if i may which surely the question has to arise if you've touched on several things which we all see that thoughts just pop up and disappear yeah and we can all acknowledge i'm not doing that yeah thoughts just seem to come yeah thoughts just seem to come and go yeah so what and who is responsible for those thoughts arising and disappearing it must just be the body i would say no one i would say it's just energy moving yeah yeah i mean the actual experience isn't just that what's responsible for it well i don't know there isn't what is it what is it that wakes up yeah yeah that's a good points to contemplate i don't ever use that term yeah i don't i was never asleep what what is what is it that what what is it if the me doesn't awaken what awakens what's already awake well i think yeah i don't know try and speak from what you know rather than a concept i would say just try it's just the absence of me but what do you mean wake up so yeah like it's all the same isn't it what's all the same the experiencing is the same wake up i mean these are all these are all concepts it is it is that this is really important yes okay and it's basic yeah yeah which it needs to be yes it gets complicated we get lost yeah it's really basic if there's no me yes look we all come here because we want to wake up yeah i don't i don't that's not it for me that's okay that's okay that's okay we can tackle that in a minute if you want generally people come here because they're seeking something yes because they're either uncomfortable with their life or they're on some spiritual quest or they're seeking or searching for something or they're trying to let go of something yeah generally yep yep you call that waking or not whatever it's just like waking up that's okay i i understand i really do realization i really do yeah and that's why i say we're all different anyway we're we are so not different honey we are absolutely not different we're not we are no of course we're not right then we are no we're not no we're not sorry but we can argue about it or not we're not we're not i agree good so so if there's if the me doesn't wake up what the hell is it that's waking up what's what's the answer is no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no it's not in the words whatever you say is going to be wrong look and listen the answer the answer is the question yes yeah so it's really really pondering that yeah really pondering that okay so we go yeah thoughts are right like thoughts come up and they disappear and i'm not doing it well who or what is responsible for those thoughts if you're not doing it and you can see that yet it still seems to be happening yeah arising and disappearing what is responsible for that process that happens if not you if not the me to me it seems to be the body does it the body does it yeah it's just part of the actual functioning of the body okay no but that's okay okay but that's it but that's okay but which which part of the body yeah well i guess the brain probably does it so people with brain damage they don't uh or what does brain actually do if you take the power well it no it manages the body doesn't it it's a bit like no i just i mean it's um okay like it's just part of the processing of making your muscles work and your walk and all that right try and come back to what you actually know yeah all right yeah i know they're all ideas yeah so just try and try and cut through that and just come back to what you actually know for a fact what you know so if thoughts just come and go yeah number one question what who's doing that what's doing that number one well from just looking at i don't know great that's the truth yes otherwise it's all fluff yes it's just all when we get caught in these concepts yeah they're all just ideas of it must be this or that right okay no no that's right fair enough yep yeah no that's fine okay so let's come back to the one there's just one yeah i don't know how many times it gets talks it gets talked about here yeah yeah that's why it's called non-dual yes that's why we're all the same by the way who's no difference i'll get that great but then there's nothing else to say then terry if you want to speak like that there's nothing else to say no that's that's only if you assume that what's being said is being spoken to the me and it's not and that's the very point that i'm trying to that's the very point i'm trying to make right now yeah okay so non-duality one yep try and imagine just try and imagine if you can right pure absolute oneness just one no two no relationship no there here up down just absolutely pure oneness could it know itself no right interesting so what does it do to know itself or to experience itself what does it do what does that one do that one what does it do to experience itself it doesn't do anything cannot do anything just try and stay with this for a second okay okay so pure oneness absolute the manifestation is like this is all ideas that's okay just try it all right all right well the manifestation is movement more yeah more more yep you're on the right path more yeah

Another way of looking at it is it's all a construction.

Yeah. What's the cause, what's the primary cause of that construction? Well, it's got to be the one. Right. Yes. So this is, that one, or this that appears to be... Yes. Appearance is a good word, yes. ...is an absolute expression of that oneness. Just an expression of, yes? If you like, it expresses itself... Yes. ...to experience itself. Yes. To experience itself. And one of those expressions that pops out of that oneness, yes, is wanting for itself, if you like, to be able to experience itself as whole. Yes. Not experience itself as that, that, that, that, or that. Yes? It doesn't happen for everybody. One of the expressions might be, I'm going to be the fastest hundred-meter sprinter in the world.

That might be an expression. Yes. Another expression might be, I'm going to be the best virtuoso violinist in the world. One might be, I'm just, I'm going to be a plumber. Yes. Yes. One might be, I'm going to be a murderer. Yes. Yes. One might be, I'm going to be a saint. Yes. It doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter what it is. They're all just expressions of that one. Yes. Yes. That pure oneness. Yes. Yes. So, if you can acknowledge that that, if you can see, like see, that that, that everything is just purely an expression. Yes. Of that. Go back to the first question.

What is it that is responsible for the thoughts that come and go? Yes. Ultimately, it's got to be that. Right. Has to be, doesn't it? Yes. Yes. So, what is it that's waking up? Yes. Yes. What is it that's waking up? Well, it's got to be the one to itself. Yes. And in non-duality speak, we say it's consciousness. Yes. Waking up to itself. Yes. Yes. So, if you want to kind of break it down a little bit from that pure oneness and just call it consciousness, it's consciousness that the thoughts arise in and disappear in. Yes. It's consciousness. Okay. And part of that thought process that happens, yes, that arises and disappears, guess who's in that thought process that arises and disappears?

Yes. The me is. Yes. Purely. Yes. Yes. Which you have no control over. Yes. Like zip. Yes. Nada. No control over. Yes. Fucking any fucking thing. No, you only exist in your thoughts. Yeah. Or, you know, the... Seem to exist in your thoughts, if you like. Yeah. All right. Yes. So, it's consciousness that actually awakens. Yes. Yeah. So, when communication is happening in this framework, yeah, here, what's constantly being spoken to is consciousness. Yes. It's not me. Yes. Not you. Yeah. Yeah. It's not you, as Kat said, that's going to wake up, or is going to realise, or is going to see. It's not... Yeah.

It's bob's on talking to the I am and that I am, right? Yeah. It's not talking to the individual. Yeah. Yeah. So, you trying to work it out in your head is never going to work. It's not. Because that's not what is going to be the message. It's not. Okay. So, then... Okay. Great. So, then we come back to... All right. So, I'm sitting here. I'm sitting here. There might be thoughts coming and going. And those thoughts that are coming and going are saying things like, you know, why aren't I awake? Why can't I fully get this? Yes. Yeah. I've got a good intellectual understanding of it.

But... But... Yeah. All that stuff. Yep. That just naturally goes on. Yeah. The shift of attention that often gets talked about is shifting the attention away from that stuff. Mm. Just shift the attention away from that stuff. It's like going from... Yep. Shifting the attention away from that stuff and bringing it back to consciousness. Mm. Or bringing it back to awareness. Or bringing it back to presence. Here. Yeah. Now. Just now. Yes. Just now. And we find that so bloody difficult to do because for all of our life, all of our attention has been on that. That. Yeah. And we're... And it's ingrounding us to seek the answer to whatever in that.

As Bob has said a million times, a lot of other teachers have said, you'll never find the answer in the mind. Yes. Yeah. It's just not in there. Yep. And yes, we are all different expressions, totally different expressions. Absolutely. There's no ifs or buts about that. However, that's not who and what we actually are. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. It's not. Yep. Yep. Yes. People say, you know, people do meditation. I'll do it for years, you know. And I'll go through all different types of meditative rituals. Lots. Yeah. And generally, you tend to find that, well, hopefully, that they end up finishing their meditation where they started, which is just watch the thoughts come and go.

Just watch them come and go. Yes. And often that's where people will start. Yep. And then they go off into all sorts of other realms with meditation, which is all okay. It's all just part of the expression. Yes. Yes. But hopefully, for some of them, that they'll come back to where they started. Hold on a minute. What's actually going on here? Yeah. And shifting that attention away from being interested in the me, being interested in the thoughts, to literally shifting the attention to presence, just here, just now. Thoughts might still be popping up and so on and so on, but you have no interest in it.

No, no interest in it whatsoever. That's earnestness. That's what Kat was talking about earlier. Sure. That's real earnestness. Yeah. It doesn't look like much fun being earnest. No. Well, it doesn't if you don't have that call of the heart. Yes. Look into it. If the devotion naturally shows up. I'm happy to do that. Yeah. Imagine. I don't know what you're talking about because I don't get it. It's not necessarily devotion though. It's just a word, but tell me one thing. It's a word. Yeah. It's a word. And a word's not the thing. True. I mean, that's a natural thing. Yeah. I want to come and I find out things.

Tony, is there anything in life that you really love, that you have this affectionate feeling towards? Coming here? Yes. Anything else? Like, do you have a pet? Or do you have a family? I like all the old people I visit, you know. See? Yeah. And this, now, when you think about something that is very dear to your heart, and you are supposed to go extra mile for that thing that is dear to your heart, how difficult is that going to be? Well. Like, if you're going to, you have that person. To ride here on a cold night. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You go, you know. That's another problem.

If one of your dear friends, dear oldies, they need the help in the middle of the night and it's foggy and it's drizzled and it's cold. Possibly. Not sure about that. Well, imagine if you loved them a little bit more. Like, you really, you would die for them. And this is the type of the earnestness that, you know, is, again, it's a language. For me, it felt like devotion. I was totally in love with the reality, and it felt like I would do anything, I would die for it. Like, if you ask the little I, like, what would you be ready to do to actually expand and let that consciousness look through your eyes, give your whole body to it, give your ears, give your spirit, give your body back to where it belongs.

Yeah. Is that little I in love enough to actually die for it? No, not sure. Yes. Yes. So, if, if that sort of an affectionate love develops, that is when you really seek the first, the kingdom of heaven and you really seek, seek it within. And this is something that is, it is a gift, it is a grace. Yeah. They say this is a grace. You can't choose to feel that love. You can't. But the moment you obviously something's bringing you here. Yes. So, there is an affectionate, some affection towards the message. Yes. So, just. A lot. Yes. So, that lot of affection, if your attention will rest on it, that, because see how the attention makes everything real.

When you are a child, they are telling you that Santa Claus is bringing you gifts and you believe it and it becomes reality because you believe it. Now you believe you are a human being in a human body and it becomes reality because you believe it. Everything is fed with that attention. That attention is what gives life. You know, the fact that you label things, you put words on things, you make them real through your own mind and through your own process of labeling. And of course, it's not you as a person. This is how life plays the game. Sure. But this is how the reality comes about.

So, if that very attention rests back on itself, on that affectionate awareness of being, on that warmth towards the presence of the existence of the being. That very awareness of being, that awareness of presence, gets fed with that life essence and it becomes grow, it becomes to grow, it starts blossoming. This is where, because see, when you are in love with distractions, that's where your heart is. That's where the life essence, that's where the attention goes. And if you have no saying, that's okay. You just recognize, alright, my attention is just, like you know, like going through the hole, into the, whatever psychology or whatever, into beautiful tools.

And that's fine, you know. Beautiful tools. Yes. Beautiful tools. You see, I imagine, gosh, one of my very, very good friends, she's very much into it. And recently, she had beautiful insights and fantastic journey. And she fell in love. And now, I knew that, you know what darling, we gotta wait, because it's such a strong destruction. Yeah. She got mental obsession about the guy. She was thinking, fantasizing, dreaming, imagining future. There was no attention left to rest back on itself. And she had absolutely no saying. If I would ask her, what's the most important thing in the world for you right now? Ah, this guy.

And I say, how about waking up? Ah, I know darling, I know. It's okay. It's okay. We just, we just enjoy your dream. Just enjoy your dream. Because, and it's fine, because this is what the, this is what the reality, what the totality wants to experience right now. Yeah. Affection, affair, whatever. The, the, kind of this human attraction, you know. Animals, they get attracted to each other also. And it's, instinct is so strong that everything gets bypassed. Yes. And they're ready to die. Yes. You know. But how, how, this is the question. How important is the reality, the truth? Because for average person, there's not many of us here.

For average person, what's important is the illusion, is the Maya, the dream, is the, you know, promotion, the career, the family, the children, the husbands, all the content of the dream. It's not many people who actually discover, who has this, this wonderful, fortunate possibility to discover that the whole dream comes up from believing the thoughts. From making labels and feeding them with life essence. And that's how it becomes a reality. But it's still an illusion, it's still a manifestation, it's a dream. And it's transient. And it's only here temporarily for, and fracture of time in the, in a timeless existence. So now, if that, if you find that, that affectionate awareness of being, that love for that, for the reality, glimpses actually really help in this.

Yeah. And that's making a lot of sense. Yeah. Do you, do you have a favourite pointer? Something that really shifts you? Something that really kind of makes you, yeah. Yeah. Oh, sort of just being alive, you know, being out, you know, seeing a sunset. Yeah. Like seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, engaging with the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Oh, I just do, you know, feel like I am this consciousness, non-understandable whatever I am. Being there, yeah. And loving itself. And it might be emptiness. Yeah. Yeah. When you, when you look at the beauty, and you, and you just kind of embrace it, because you always look at yourself, ultimately, this is just the one looking at itself.

Oh, that's amazing. Universe, isn't it? And sort of being here even, you know, when I think quite a thing. Exactly, yeah. And you're loving it, and then if you, because this is the magic of it, this is the mystery of it. It's enough to actually see through one pointer. And if you stay with it, it will just open up. If your heart is with it, with what you already recognize, because ultimately, there's nothing really complicated. It's just too simple for the mind. But for the heart, it's the most obvious thing ever. It's the being. Did you have that cat? Did you have a favorite one pointer?

I had quite a few favorite pointers. I had maybe seven or eight favorite pointers. Yeah, what were some of them? Ah, yeah, spontaneity, for example. Oh, yes. Yeah, how everything just floats, comes and goes. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, the movement that everything... Self-organizing self or something. Yes, yes, yes. About that sort of concept. And also the ideas, like get out of the way and just see how everything pops into a place. Yeah. How everything happens on its own by itself. How thoughts happen by itself. How clouds move by themselves. The body is digesting food and growing hair by itself. Like there is nobody required to do any of it.

Yeah. That was... And I had a lot of different kind of... I even had a little cheat sheet with me that I would just glance at it. Oh, Liz. All right. The little reminders. But to be honest, in the moment when the illusion of separate self was dropping off, none of it mattered. None of it mattered. None of it mattered. Like I spoke with Toni, she was in the hospital yesterday with us. She says her favourite distraction, which was also my favourite distraction, listen to other speakers. Listen to YouTube, listen to all the... Oh, that's my mind. Yes, that was the favourite distraction. And she says, you know, it's better than sitting in a pub.

Well, it is for you, obviously, because you're attracted to it. But to be honest, all the hours that I spent listening to those guys, in the moment of realising that bundle of thoughts, bundle of feelings that I imagined to be myself, when this one was collapsing, none of it mattered. None of it contributed or not contributed. I can't say if it even, if it did anything to it. Sure. It was just, it was just a pleasure that I used to indulge in. Yes. And I believed that it was more noble pleasure than the pleasures of the body. Yes. And I even had the sense of superiority because of that.

Yes. You know, if I would indulge in a smoking pot or something, I would feel kind of guilty. But when I'm indulging in listening to some non-duality speakers, that would be something... Ah. Yeah, that's right. But I had no saying. I couldn't stop it. That was... Attraction was so strong. Yeah. And partially it was the devotion. Partially it was the looking for that shift, for the insight, for the moments of realisation. But did it really do anything? The years of seeking? The years of listening to others? Not really. Because you have to walk the walk. You really have to look for yourself. But was it sort of fun while you were doing it?

How many... They can keep encouraging you to look for yourself. It's a pleasant sort of life compared to... Oh, it is pleasant when it's pleasant. But, you know, very often I was... Ah, somebody's coming. Yeah, I'll go. Did you have a favourite point to hear? Yeah, I was just thinking about that. My... What I really... It's Tony. It's Alou. It's Tony. What I really can remember... You've got a chuck sitting there at your back pocket. ...grabbing on to as a father was the only way you can really help somebody. I used to take them beyond the need for further help. Oh, yeah. That's beautiful. And I grabbed on to that because all my life, you know, I've been seeking help.

Yeah. You know? Whether it be from counsellors, whether it be from whatever, you know? Different groups I've been associated with and, you know, trying to fix myself but hoping somebody could fix me at the same time. Yeah? Really trying to take responsibility. Really earnestly trying to take responsibility for fixing my me. Yeah. Like really, you know? And, you know, and was there anything wrong with that path? Not really. You know? I learnt a lot of things whilst I was doing that. You know? Ethics being a big one. Ethics? Ethics being a big one for me. Yeah. Ethics. Ethics. And I'm not talking about morality. No.

When I say ethics. Okay. Ethics are personal. Yeah? Morality is a law that's kind of laid down by society that we all follow. Oh! Yeah. And I understood that the only way that you could really help somebody was take them beyond the need for further help. Because I saw that I'm going to be on this self-help path till I fucking die. Sure. Yes, yes. Till I die. And I got really, really, really bored with it. With the whole self-help notion. And I got really bored with being around people that were on that path as well. Because what became blatantly obvious to me was the self-obsession involved in being involved with a me.

That's right. Totally self-absorbed. Watching every move you make. Every little interaction that you have with another human being. And then walking away from that and questioning that. Could I handle myself better? Why did I say that? Why did I do that? Well, next time I'm going to do blah and I'm going to be a better person for it. It just, in the end, it just got, I've had enough. You can probably follow out, cuz we got a good idea. I've had enough of this. Not only have I had enough of hearing it, but I've had enough of trying to do it myself. Yeah, exhausted. Just, I saw it as a bottomless pit.

And then? There was nowhere to go from it. And then I recalled, I recalled, which I'd heard a few times over the years, the only way you can really help somebody is take them beyond the need for further help. Take them beyond the need for further help. Right. And that, you know, and fairly recently that's what really resonated with me. Like, really, really resonated with me. I really see that. Yeah. And to take me beyond the need for further help meant stop engaging in the me. Yes. Stop engaging in the me. Stop engaging in the thoughts. Stop engaging in concepts, ideas, beliefs. Stop it. Knock it off.

Because that was all the old stuff for me. Yeah. Trying to fix me. Trying to fix myself. You know? And initially, whilst I was doing that, you know, I was hanging with people that were trying to do the same thing. And that felt like my tribe because we're all trying to do that. Yeah. So I kind of felt connected with people, you know? Yeah. But the bottom line is, even though I kind of felt connected with people, I was absolutely not connected with myself. I was never satisfied. Right. Never satisfied with myself. Right. Sounds unbearable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of what got me to the point where I went, enough.

That's enough. Like, that's enough. I'm just going to sit now. Oh, you're talking about sitting. I'm just going to sit. I'm just going to sit. I'm just going to sit. Okay. And not get involved. Yeah. And, you know, and even not getting involved in the thoughts, I can't afford to be sitting. I need to be doing something. Yeah. Yeah. But it was also there. It was totally there and I went, fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I didn't really say fuck you, but I kind of went, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you, but thanks for sharing. But. Yeah. And I just sat because I realized that I couldn't work it out in there.

Yeah. I couldn't work it out, you know. And people had different ideas and different concepts. And then you're hanging with different people in that self-help organization. Everyone's pigeonholing one another. Yeah. You know, he's further along than him. All this stuff, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And then I, and then I was being pigeonholed and I feel, I don't belong in that pigeonhole. How dare you pigeonhole me in there. Yeah. Yeah. I don't belong in there. You can't see me. Yeah. I'm much further, you know, bullshit. You know, like it's, at the end of the day, it was all just noise. Yes. You know. And it was, it was, you know, that, you know, in my experience, and it might be different for others, but in my experience, it was a state of exhaustion.

Mm-hmm. Just an absolute state of exhaustion. You know, like, where I kind of, I, I really did kind of tamper with the idea, I'd be better off dead. Sure. Really. Yeah. Than just going along in this fucking nightmare. Sure. This dream. Yep. Even though I'm being a good person and I'm self-helping myself and I'm doing all the right things and I'm being ethical and I'm being moral and I'm out there and I'm helping people and doing all this stuff, you know, I still felt like shit. Yeah. I still, rather, I still felt disconnected. Yes. More to the point. I still felt a disconnect, you know, and, and then I can remember it, you know, I just kind of went, it was one morning, I got up, head's going again and I'm, and I just went, you know what, I've had enough.

That's enough. Mm-hmm. That's enough. The only way you can really help somebody is to take them beyond the need for further help. What does that mean? Yeah. Like really, what does that mean? You know? And I just sat, kind of sat with that. Yep. Sat with that. What would that look like? Yeah. What would that look like, being taken beyond the need for further help? Like, and I realized, actually, that's not possible. Mm-hmm. You can't take the me beyond the need for further help. Yeah. But I had to sit with that and really, really, really see that. Yeah. So, and I saw it crystal clear.

Then all of a sudden I just become completely and absolutely disinterested. Total disinterest. I just, total disinterest, you know? And then I just found myself sitting and I went, okay, this is fresh. Like really, like, this is fresh, you know? Um, and just kind of dropped away and, and if you want me to describe it, all I was, all I would say is what I was trying to explain to you before is consciousness woke up. Not me. Yes. Not me. Me can't wake up. Yes. I just kind of went bang and I was present. I wasn't being distracted by that anymore. And all the psychological suffering that that produced dropped.

Yeah. Dropped. That doesn't mean I can't experience pain. Yeah. That doesn't mean I, I, I won't experience suffering. Yeah. Moving forward. You know, if I got a phone call now saying that my kid was in an accident and he was dead. Yeah. I'd be fucking mortified. Yeah. I know I would. Yeah. At least I think I would. Yeah. I think I'm pretty sure I would. Yeah. Yeah. Um, just that, that, that attachment. Right. You know, that I have. It's my boy. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Um, but just, if I can, just something that, that, that the dialogue was happening between you two before was really interesting.

Um, Kat was asking me, you know, like, what do you love? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I asked you, what's your primary love? Your absolute number one love. Do you know what it would be? No. No idea? No. Okay. Who are you feeding? So, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to stand up and walk over to you. So I want you to imagine, I want you to imagine this. Okay. If I was to walk up to you now and put my hands around your throat and start squeezing and really, really fucking squeeze to the point where you can't breathe. Yeah. At that point, what do you reckon your primary love is going to be?

Um, now if it was total discomfort. Man, you're going to die. That's okay. So what would your primary love be in that moment? That I wasn't hurting? What problem? Would you resist? Oh, I, I, I think I would. Right. Why? Um, just because, you know, I can stop this, you know. Yeah. Why, yeah. But why would you want to stop it? Why would it? Because it hurts. Not the fact that you're going to die? No. No. Not the fact that you're going to die? No. No. I've been in that situation a few times. And, uh. So it would be the pain? When, sort of, Bob says.

That's okay. Yeah. So it would be the pain? I think so, yeah. It's awful, that. So what's your primary love there? Um. What's the sign? No pain? No pain? No pain? Sorry. What's your primary love there? I'm not sure. But, perhaps, the love not to be in pain? The love not to experience pain? You can't say I love being in pain. No, I do. This is awesome. Squeeze harder. No. You're not going to say that. Even though sometimes I have found intense pain totally fascinating. Yeah. The point that I'm trying to make. Okay. The point that I'm trying to make is. Usually. Usually. A person's primary love is their love to be.

Yeah. And that's. And more often than not, you'll have people throw up. I love my kids. That's their primary love. Yeah. I love my husband. I love my job. Or whatever. You know. You start choking the life out. Yeah. It comes down though. It does. At the end of the day, it comes down to that beingness. It comes down to that being alive. That's the primary love. But that. But that. Is right smack bang in here now in the present. Yes. That's that awareness. That's that consciousness. That's that beingness. And that's just the natural feeling. Yeah. So you come back to that. Yeah. Wait a minute, Tony.

Let me try another angle. When you are watching all the distractions. When you are watching all the other speakers. Who do you really care to wake up? Who are you really caring for? Like do you really care whether somebody there in Sydney will wake up or not? You do it for. You do it for yourself. Sure. See. Because this is. When you were asking me question. Why would I. You know. Like what would it give me? Why would I be going attracted to this distraction? Because of me. There was me. I wasn't doing it just for pleasure. I wasn't. I was doing it also to avoid pain.

Because that would give me a sense of a relief. I would listen to Bob. I would listen to whoever. And it. The resonance. That would touch my heart. And would take me out of the head. My. Self obsession. And my. Inferiority. Would be replaced by some other people's thoughts. And those thoughts would be less painful. Because it was all about me. This was me who was suffering. This was me who was seeking the relief. So. Obviously. The involvement. And engagement. In the me. Was totally. Was total. Was obsessed. So. Who do I care about? Yeah. I had. I had quite a few people back in Poland.

And we were on the spiritual. So. So called spiritual path together. And we were gathering. And I was translating some sessions for them. And we were. You know. Kind of doing it together. But did I really care. That my friend. Anya will wake up. I wish her from all my heart. But the most important thing was for me. I. Like Terry said. I. Want to be beyond further help. Because I can't stand it anymore. What she is feeling. How she is doing. I wish her all the best. I love her to bits. But this was my problem. This was me that wanted to wake up.

Me was important. Everything I was doing was for me. So this is the. This is the problem. Because. That's why I ask what you love. That's why Terry suggests. That you would love your life. You would love your being. But even if you look. Why are you distracting yourself? Why are you seeking pleasure? Why are you going into all this fascinating. Yeah. What. Exactly. This is the love for the me. But the me. At this point. Is limited. Is contracted. The me. Is deficient. So the me. Needs to add. More excitement. More pleasure. Because. It loves itself. And it wants to have everything it deserves.

Because deep down in the heart. It actually already owns. It has everything. It is everything. But going up to the head. It doesn't know it. Because during the process of conditioning. It has been convinced. To be a limited. Individual. Suffering. And deficient. And never good enough. And. Needing the self growth. Or improvement. Or whatever. And that's painful. So see how everything you do. You do for the me. And it's like Bob is quoting. Sometimes. Bunky. Why are we unhappy? Because 99% of everything we think. And we do. Is for ourselves. And there isn't one. So we seek for all this. So it can never be satisfied.

This one. Yes. So this. This is the love for the me. Nisargadatta has a fabulous quote about love. Where he is actually pointing out. How everything is love. Like what is the. Gosh. I don't remember this one. But he was pointing out everything. Like what is the. Even the survival of violence. Of food. If not love for the physical body. For the safety. What is seeking. If not love for the wisdom. Everything is love. That is. That is. It's just. Misguided. Because in the. In the other part of the quote. He says. Love is for the me. And the mine. And me and the mine.

Can be small. Limited. Or it can expand. And explode. And embrace the universe. But the love remains. And the love is always for the me. Now the question. What is the me. If the me. Is a limited individual. A person. That love will be very. Very misguided. And that love will prompt you. To push someone. Under the car. To save your child. Or your mother. Or whatever. Because this is my. And others don't. Don't matter. But if you actually recognize yourself. As the source of the universe. What else do you need to add to yourself. What are you missing. I think that sounds wonderful. It is actually being free from desires.

Being okay with what is. Because it's not an eternal bliss. Being at peace with whatever comes up. With whatever is. There is an element of bliss. When you actually really exclusively. Rest attention on the presence. But in normal daily functioning. It's just being okay with everything. It's just nothing wrong anymore. But it is. Oh boy how wonderful it is. It's comparing to the self obsession. When you are constantly on the search. And you constantly needing something. And you constantly try to find your way out. From the construction. The trap. That isn't even real. The construction. The trap. The cage. Is made of words. And concepts.

And beliefs. One of the concepts. Is that I am this body. And the body. Like Robin you said. The body is producing sensations. The body is. How can body produce anything? Body is only a minute expression. In the totality. It's like a transmitter and receiver. And it's. While they call it cognizing emptiness. Or space like awareness. Or pure singularity. Or presence awareness. Sky like awareness. The cognizing aspect. It cognizes through the senses. So basically. The emptiness that. When. When you Terry. Was referring to this. The. The one. Undivided. Before it even begin to express. Like ocean without the wave. On the ocean. Nothing else. Just.

Just the. Just the space. Before any way of expressing. Came about. The cognizing. Is impossible. There is no. Even illusory reference. To actually be able to cognize. The self knowing. But here. In this dream. Self knowing. Happens through the sensory experiences. Like the space of awareness. Becomes space of seeing. And there are objects in it. Space of hearing. Space of tasting. Touching. Smell. It's all space. And the senses are only filters. They only filter sensations. In particular way. But this is still the same. Having a touch of itself. Through the illusion. Through the dream. Pretending. Dancing. Moving. Is that. Is the stillness. That is moving.

Which is a paradox. Of course. Because it's not. Not any of it. But this is the way. It catches a glimpse. Of itself. And this. Is the way. It can love itself. And then. Back to the love. Of the self. See. That loving. For. For me. Is still there. Is the. This is the survival instinct. This is like. I don't know. How many. I. I. I told you. Before. I had some. Friends. Who were suicidal. And some. Went all the way. And killed themselves. And some. I was kind of. Looking after. Because it happened. This way. But this people. They had love for life. And.

If only. If only. They resolved. The financial commitments. Or if only. They got. Their situation. Cured. Or whatever. Health. Or. Love situation. Cured. They wouldn't want to kill themselves. They always wanted. To do it. For a reason. And if the reason. Wasn't there. The natural love. For living. Would be there. Of course. If they were. Perfectly happy. And fulfilled. They would be happy to be. They weren't. Only. Because of the conditions. They had for happiness. If you have no conditions. For happiness. If you are okay. With what is. If there is no person. Who thinks. It should be different. I should be richer. Or whatever.

What's the problem. With love for being. But even. If I imagine myself. To be limited. I'm still protecting myself. I'm washing myself. I'm feeding myself. And yes. When I'm suicidal. I'll stop. But. This is because. Certain conditions. I have. Haven't been fulfilled. Because that person. Doesn't love me. Or that person. Didn't. Whatever. There's usually a condition. And I'm not. Talking about. Every situation. Of course. There will be. Chemical components. To it. There will be. Physical components. To it. And there is. Infinite amount. Of ways. It expresses. So it's not. Just one size. Fits all. But usually. The natural. Loving. To be. The very fact. That the thing.

Things are. Like when Bob. Is talking about. Omnipresence. When he. Relates to. Christianity. It's. Total presence. Like. It loves to be. Because it is. Like. This body is. That's the very. Proof. That it wants to be. And it loves to be. Because it is. If it didn't want it. Or didn't love it. It wouldn't exist. That wouldn't be an issue. Whatever is. Is already what is. And saying it is. Because it wants to. Is again. Too many words. It's a story. Yes. But this. Story. Is to illustrate. The fact of being. The. Omnipresence. That everything. Has the being. The chair has the being. Cat has the being.

Because that's the. That's what it is. That's the. Thy will. That's. That's the reality of it. And that's not the reality. And you just love. Everything. Yes. The crime. The pain. Whatever. Yes. Yes. Whatever love is. I don't know that. That. I really love. Accepting. Embrace. Embracing. With acceptance. Like it's saying yes. To life. Really. And again. There's nobody. Who is there. To say. Yes. Or no. That yes. Is already. Included. In the appearance. Because it already is. So it has already. Been allowed. And it has already. Received. It's yes. To exist. So it's not me. Now. Being okay. And being accepting. Or being. Or saying yes.

No. It's just not. It's part of the makeup. Of the. This. Of this dream. It's much. Much simpler. Than. Any activity. The person could ever do. So if the ego. Is still there. If the suffering. Is still there. That's part of the yes. It also. Wants to be. It also. Loves to be. And it is also. Like some of the. Descriptions. Which are completely off. But they can be used too. It is a divine plan. And it's no plan. And it's no. It's a joke of a pointer. But really. Whatever it is. Even if there is a contraction. Even if there is a suffering. Like the beautiful story about.

That. First female student. Of a Buddha. Whose child. Died. And she was. In such. A deep suffering. That she couldn't. Even let go. Of decomposing. Body of the child. And she ended up. With Buddha. And he says. I will teach you. And I will give you. Child back. But you have to go. And find. The handful. Of seeds. Mustard seeds. From the household. Where nobody was lost. Where nobody died. And she was going around. Shopping. Trying. Trying. After a few days. She came back. And she says. I've understood. And I'm ready. And she was, this is a story, this is a legend, and she was the first of the female students of Buddha to be enlightened, and she couldn't be grateful enough for losing a baby, because the baby was a dream.

It is a content of the dream. However, we love the dream. There's nothing wrong with loving the dream. And, of course, it doesn't mean if the beloved part of yourself, other face of yourself, is going, the full appreciation of the mystery and perfection of this pattern, naturally rips your heart off, and you love your pain. Because if anything happened to someone I love, and there was no overwhelming cry and pain, I don't think that would be good. There is beauty in everything. There is beauty, like, you know, like, if you look at the nature, the animals, they suffer, you know, like, you want to milk in your coffee, and the cow is being raped every year, and having the child taken away, and she's crying with tears.

Milk chocolate, the child is crying with tears for a few days, because her structure is... Yes, I know, I've heard that, it's awful. So, the dogs, when the owner dies, they go and die on the grave. They have no ego, and they absolutely feel everything. And being able to feel everything, and not go to the head and explain, oh, I shouldn't be feeling it. No, no, no, I'd better go and get drunk, or distract myself from whatever is. Yes. If the sensation of pain or grief is there, you love yourself grieving. Oh, God, it's so intense. Well, I have a story about when my wife died.

I had some friends who were helping to look after her, and that went fairly well. And then they went back to the various countries, and it was a miserable August afternoon, and I could feel this grief coming on me. Yeah. And I just thought, oh, you know, it's settling. And I went down to Baldwin Library. It was about four to five in the afternoon. And I went and found the happiness section, wherever that is, I don't know, but I came back with a big pile of books. And the first one I opened, and the first thing I read was treat every state of mind as temporary.

Yeah. And I got it. And I let the library 10 minutes later, almost whistling, you know, and it didn't really return. So, in that sense, I was safe from that summary. Just, it didn't. It was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was really amazing, wasn't it, when I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. The universe doing something. So, that's not true. Yeah. And it's beautiful, because see how it resolves itself. Yeah. And see how it presents whatever it presents. Yeah. And everything. Because Bob talks about, you know, ideas turning into emotions and then becoming contracted. Yeah. And that's how I see that story. And I got through it before it is contracted.

Yeah. And if you are okay with that, because what often we do, when there is a contraction, oh, we want to fix it. We want to change it. Now I have to do something for that contraction to go. Yeah. No, just celebrate the contraction. Okay. This is die will. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is something that is there right now. Yeah. If you don't want to push it away, this is exactly the pure perfection. That's right. I've learned quite a bit about that. Yeah. This is being okay with everything. Really everything. And so, why did you come along to this group? I mean, you said you didn't come.

Tonight? Oh, no, just in general. Oh, no, just in general. Just thinking I shouldn't have tonight, because I feel so terrible. I thought it's hard or cold. Oh, no, no, no. I don't think I'm contagious. I think it's just the symptoms there. Yeah, you know. My nose, and I was trying not to pop. But you sort of said it wasn't to be enlightened or wake up or whatever. Why? No, enlightenment. That's definitely why I'm here. Oh, okay. Yeah, enlightenment. But I've never felt that I was a sicker. I would have never, I mean, that wasn't a term I was even familiar with. Okay. But enlightenment was a term I was familiar with.

Yeah, I suppose I can associate that with wake up or whatever. Yeah, and that's, again, like I never said awaken or that's not something, because I've never felt asleep. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's just not something unfamiliar with. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But enlightenment, and I've read about Bob, and know that he's enlightened, and wanted to be with someone, you know, who's in their body, alive. That I can see for myself. And it just reinforces that it's possible. It's not some mystic, you know, like, you guys were talking about, it's not like we're here, and it's there, and it's some unattainable.

Yeah. It's possible. It's possible. It's possible for every human being. Like Bob says, it's not just for the few, it's the natural state. I mean, it's in your experience right now. Yeah. Well, that's right. And that's what I guess I've always wanted that unshifting truth. That was my drive. Yeah. I couldn't cop to a belief. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just intuitively. I don't know why I couldn't cop to a belief, but intuitively, I just went. Well, it is. It's intuitively. As children. I can't do that. I think children know that this is intuitively, this is all an illusion. This is a play of. Yeah. I think it's not a play of.

Yeah. Madame Blender. That you're using kids, this is a play of, this is a play of, this is a play of, this is a play of, this is a play of. You know, we get so far from, that's what I felt. We get so far, it's so protected. The me, the idea of the me protects itself so much from the truth, or reality, or love, or whatever. And I think that's ultimately why people lose the will to live or want to kill themselves because they feel so separate from that love that is there. That natural life, whatever you want to call that. And that's what I've never felt asleep.

But I've certainly felt separate. So I've always been aware of that love that I've felt so separate from. You know, as you become an adult, experiences happen when I'm self-protected and attached to my flaws, and this identity. So, yeah, that is why I felt a little bit different from... I've never... And I never had that non-dual background. That wasn't something... No. Me neither. Well, I think I came across... You know, I suppose I've sort of been a bit of a seeker for the last 40 years. And I think I've given up the seeking. That I was always interested in this sort of stuff. And most of my friends weren't interested in talking about it.

And I noticed there was this, you know, person down here. And I had no idea of this, you know, semi-wild man or whatever. And I think that after coming for a number of nights, you know, I feel so fortunate. Very true. And I think that's a natural thing too, that gratitude that is felt. Oh, and all of it. You know, the stuff is that... He's got the message. You know, forget about the message. I love that. Yes. Many, many of us that I... Yeah, that's so honest. That's so beautiful. And that's so overlooked also. Yes. And I've met all these amazing people who I feel really relaxed with.

Yeah. And it's been excellent. Yeah. And if something else happens, I wake up. Well. See, that's where I've always felt. We're already awake. We wouldn't be here very long. But if this is a dream, you know what I mean? I've had lucid dreams. That's what, like I hear that. Have you even had lucid three and seven? I've only had a couple, but it's amazing. What analogies you can hear, Mel? You have any favourite, like which works? Oh, one of my favourite of Bob's pointers is what's wrong with right now. Yeah. Yeah. And that would be my... Yeah, beautiful. ...my go-to. Mm-hm. As a meditator, particularly.

That's something too, as even a very young person, I always knew I needed to meditate. Okay. And I always knew I needed a teacher. And I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't even know what meditation was. I didn't know about Buddhism or Hinduism or... Because I wanted to know what God was and what it was all about. So, you know, I mean, you don't get to choose. You know, if I chose, I probably would have been like all the other kids. I would have wanted to feed and... Yeah. I don't know. Be like them and wanted to get married, make a fucking white dress.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And drive the same cars and... Yeah. ...we've got the same houses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's something we've wanted to know. Yeah. No, I wasn't happy with that sort of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Never. The square pig or... No, that's right. No, I've always felt the square pig in a round hole wherever I've been. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You've occasionally moved up with someone and he's got a similar understanding, but not very often. Yeah. Yeah. No, in here, you do move them and you can express it openly, can't you? Yeah. Yeah. Tiny can turn out of people. Yeah.

For me as well, you know, people... I know there's anti-meditators and prom talks about it, but for me, non-duality is that natural meditation. It is. And that's why it's always fitting. Yeah. It is with the eyes, ears and mouth open doing their own function. Yeah. And like I said, we've all had very different experiences in our lives. So we hear things differently, we resonate differently with the words. Yeah. But I think they all point to the truth that people, you know, however they may react or associate or, you know, we all ultimately will see the truth. Yeah. Sooner or later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting.

You said before, Terry, about beliefs. And that's something I could never accept was beliefs. Yeah. Because they're a belief. That's right. That's not what's real. It's not true. That's why you're sitting here, Robin. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. He didn't know. So I've actually seriously looked at Christianity for a while on that. And I just couldn't get it because of that. I looked at so many different things. Yeah. So many different things. Yeah. And the reality was that they were all about either fixing me. Yeah. Yeah. Or humbling me to some power greater than myself. You know. Which is perpetuating the me. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Yeah. And that's what happened. Yeah. And, you know, I kind of would watch these people that seemed, from my me's perspective, seem to have these spiritual realizations. I'm not going to call them awakenings, but realizations. I've used the word. Yeah. You know. That's why I like Ken Wilbert, you know, the way he talks about waking up, but at a lot of stage, you know, having grown up. Yeah. So I sort of like those metaphors and whatever they are. So I saw these, you know, people seem to have these realizations and I would be around them and watch the way they are functioning and watch the way they are operating.

And I very quickly came to the conclusion, I don't want what you got. Okay. I so do not want what you got. Yeah. You claim to be a Jesus Christ lover. Yeah. Yeah. And you totally succumb to God. Totally succumb to Christ. And, you know, you're living in the presence of Christ. You are Christ. All this stuff. And I'm hearing stuff come out of their mouth that homosexuals are dirty dogs. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, they'd come out of their mouth. And I go, what? What? What? Yeah. What? So I would be, you know, constantly exposed to people that seem to have had a realization.

And I think there's a huge difference between a realization and an awakening. Yeah. Huge difference. And I know they're just words. But that's my understanding. Yeah. Yeah. Realization is still happening to the me, isn't it? Yes. I have the realisation. Correct. You associate the words differently. I see realisation as reality. I see that as what you refer to as awakening. It often happens. That's why he says realisations, like it was the plural. Because realisation, I would do it the same way as you do. But when I see plural, I say, ah, okay. So the isolated experiences and events. And that's my experience, is the individual events like that.

Yeah. This is what Max was also saying, that there is clarity coming and going, coming and going. So me, I experience the gap between the clouds. See, I don't feel like that either. I feel that that is there. That oneness is there and it's shrouded. I see it shrouded. Yes. And that, yes. You know, people say, I got it, then I lost it. And I kind of think, that's crap. There you go. But it was shrouded. Yes. By the thought or the mind or whatever. Yeah. It's always there. It's like, the ocean is always there. Whether there's a storm on the surface or it's calm seas, but the ocean's there, it's untouched.

And the depth is untouched. So it's just to respect you. Yeah. I don't know. You're talking about meditation. Like I meditate. Yeah. And I see... I'm not ashamed. No. Yes. Don't tell folks. Hey, we can go to meditators' anonymous. We could. We could. Probably need to. Yeah. Yeah. But to me, it gives you... I know what silence is. How about meditation happens? I know what it is. How about it's not I do the meditation? I mean, I don't do any process. Sorry. Yeah. Because this will completely flip the coin for you. If you say, I do meditate and I am proud of you. You see, of my meditation.

And I do experience. You do places. Yes. Yeah. But see, if you actually go back to the life, the life essence, which is expressing through you, us, sitting in silence, that's not you meditating anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just look at it this way. Now, I've dropped the idea of me trying to get something. Because then you're not allowed anymore. Like you've got to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a busy life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not every night, but. Okay. And he's never quite sure when he's going to get asked to coach. So, when he can sneak here, he does.

He absolutely does. Yeah. That's his, he doesn't care about anything else. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he's fortunate that he's got a really good job as a tennis coach. Yeah. And they love him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and he's really, really, really, really good at it. Yeah. Really good at it. 97% retention rate with all the students that he has. So, but, you know, and, but, it's for him that's just natural. it doesn't have to try at it it's just something that happens it can do and he just kind of goes along and does that and he tells me dad I'm playing tennis and I'm not there I'm constantly being present whilst I'm playing tennis whilst he's coaching people, whilst he's talking to people so his primary his primary earnestness is he absolutely wants to get this or wake up or whatever you want to call it does he already realise that when he's playing tennis there's no self-imposed absolutely he totally does and that's what he's talking about comes and goes and that's okay man that's better than not coming at all you know what I mean it's okay that's whatever word you use consciousness or awareness that's that wanting to know itself it just does it just does it just does like the idea that we think one, two, three, four, five, six of us have turned up here tonight of our own free will because we want to get this is absurd you know what I mean so if you I know it's what I was doing I know it's what I was doing I thought it'd be horrible yeah yeah yeah I get it I get it I get it I was lying back on the couch you know at work and I was lying back on the couch and I was like oh I don't know if I could be bothered tonight and I found myself getting up and getting in the car and driving and here I am because see you can be at service yeah yeah it's more beautiful than being at service well that's that's really interesting that you bring that up because the only yeah that's right the stuff that the stuff that used to run through my head all the time primarily was painful yeah it was just painful yeah even if like and I didn't even have to I didn't have to break the content of those thoughts down to go oh that's why I'm painful because there's that thought yeah my pain was just associated with feeling separate yeah the bottom line just like just feeling separate you know and then and as a consequence of that there was always that the thinking primarily becomes about self-protection yeah yes because I'm separate yes I'm separate so it's survival yeah so all that stuff yeah now yeah now all so all my suffering if you like that I've

I have experienced all my life, I am going to use this word, was all psychological, was all in my head.

It wasn't outside of myself, it wasn't because of you or because of that situation or that circumstance. It was all in here. Maybe I could point the finger at 1%. I got sexually assaulted when I was a kid. But even that, jumping around a bit, even that, when I, and I am going to use the word, wake up, because I don't care. It's just what it is, alright? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So, for 40 years, I had been carrying with me, I had been assaulted, and it was violent. I was raped as a kid. 13, 14 years of age. That's shocking. That is shocking.

I know, and that's where I was. Oh, it's shocking, this shouldn't have happened. And I tried to take the guy to court, but it was like 20 years after the event, and there was no witnesses. You know, there was no evidence, and at the end of the day, it was his words against mine, and I didn't have the money to pursue him myself legally. Yeah. So, I was hoping for the Department of Public Prosecution to pick it up, and they decided they wouldn't, because it was his word against mine. Yeah. But I took it as far as I could. Yeah. So, the police knew he got bored in, and he turned up with a QC.

Yeah. Right? Sitting next to him, to be interviewed by the police. Yeah. But that's great, because it sets a precedent, and other people will come forward. Look, for sure. Yeah. That all sounds sweet. Yeah. But the reality was, after it, I still felt a victim. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I still felt justice wasn't done. Yes. I wasn't believed, or I wasn't heard, or something should have happened, something should have occurred. Shouldn't have ever, all the things shouldn't have happened. That's right. So, I, so... Hang on, hang on, hang on. Sorry, sweetie. He's on a roll. It's okay. It's okay. So, and I carried it. Wow.

And I carried it, and I carried it. And psychologically, I could reason with it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I go, look, that was then. Yeah, it doesn't matter. 40 years later, I did what I could, might have, you know, me doing that with the police might prevent him from doing it with others, or, you know... Any story. Story. Story. Yeah. Right? So, that was going on. But the reality was, the reality was, what I was also experiencing in my body was, if I see this guy in the street... You're gonna kill him. If I see this guy in the street, that was the energy that came up here.

I wanted to hurt him. Yes. That was the energy that came up. Here's a really interesting thing that happened. Right. And I'm only talking about as little as three months ago. Right. Only about three months ago. Yeah. You know, I've told the story, I'm sitting on my veranda, and I go, poom. Yeah. And about two weeks after that happened, it occurred to me. Totally occurred. Like, that story popped into my head, and I went, oh, that's interesting. I wonder how he's feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, beautiful. I wonder what he's been living with all his life. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know what I did? Yeah.

I tracked him down. Got in my car. Yeah. Drove to his house. Knocked on the door. He opened the door. Of course, he had no idea who I was. Yeah. I was 14, 13. Last time he saw me, he had no idea who I was. Yeah. And he said, can I help you? And I'll cut the story right, right, right down. Right. And I said, you don't recognize me? He said, no, I don't. Can I help you? Old guy. Yeah. Right? He was old. Like, I'm guessing 80. Yeah. Feeble. And so I painted the picture for him. Wow. Let him know who I was. Yes.

And I said, and I'm not here to yell at you. I'm not here to scream at you. Yeah. I'm not here to get angry at you. Yeah. None of that. I'm here standing in front of you, letting you know, I'm okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm okay. Yeah. I'm totally okay. Yeah. Yeah. And I topped it off with an I forgive you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, and he didn't say a word. He was shaking. Yeah. I could see that he was really, really scared. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, God, that's what he's been living with all his life. Yes. That fear, you know. He's been living with that.

Yeah. Wondering if one day I'm going to turn up at his door, and here I am. Yeah. Wow. And he didn't say anything. And I turned to walk away. I said, look, you won't see me again. Yeah. I'm never going to come back again. You won't see me again. Have a great life. I hope you're okay. We all make mistakes. Yes. We all make. And I've made mistakes. I haven't done that. But I've made mistakes. I've hurt people. Yeah. You know. Not intentionally, but I've hurt people. You know. From my own actions and so on, you know. He says, we all make mistakes. And I turned to walk away in a really soft, soft voice, barely auditable.

He said, sorry. Yeah. Oh, my God. And I just turned and I smiled at this big smile on my face. I just turned and smiled and I said, we're okay. We. We're okay. You're three now. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully he was. Yes. That's what came up. No, that's right. Primarily, that's what came up for me. Yes. What can I do for him? Yes. Yes. And I didn't even know if the guy was still alive. Yeah. Yeah. But I went and did that and got in my car and drove off and went up. That was the right thing to do. I don't know. It was just seeing the right thing.

I was coming from love. Yeah. I just came from love. Yeah. Yeah. And prior to that, I was coming from victim. Yes. Prior to that, I was coming from you cunt. Yeah. Fuck you. Yeah. If I see you on the street, man, I don't know if I'm going to be able to hold back all this story. But I've been telling myself that story for 40 fucking years. So who was really doing the punishing? Yeah. You. Exactly. I was hurting myself. Yes. With that event for 40 years, I hurt myself. Yes. I hurt myself. Yeah. There's something wrong with me. Yes. You know? When I was a kid, what does that mean about myself sexually?

Yeah. Am I now gay? I was 13. Yeah. I thought you could catch it. Yeah. Really? I was 13. Oh, now I'm gay. Oh. But I don't want to be gay, was a 13 year old. Yeah. You know? But can you see, Terry, all of that experience is probably really what's led you right here. Yeah. Every single solitary. Yeah. Every single solitary. Second of my whole life has led me to sitting here. That's right. All of it. Yeah. And you know what? It's all okay. Yeah. Oh my God. And yours and mine and yours and yours. Everything that's happened. Yeah. It's all okay. That's a huge thing.

That's amazing. And the weird part, the weird part, and I'm going to finish with this, the weird part is nothing actually ever happened. Yeah. Right. That's going to sound really strange. It does. And how magnificent illustration. Like you know, even if we stay with the story for a moment, like you've been beating yourself up, fell out of yourself for all your life, and you see now that the possibility was there all along to actually come from love. And then, because yeah, it is there. It is really. If you drop the personal self, there's totally nothing that can separate you from seeing your face in anybody else, in others.

But the truth is, yes, that story happens only when you recall it in your mind, in the memory. Where is it right now? Yeah. It's just, it's such a mystery. That's so good. Okay. It is. It's beautiful. You're so fortunate. I just see that. I mean, it's horrific, and you'd never want that for anyone, but you're just so fortunate. That's such a fortunate. I suppose, what was the point that I was trying to make there? The point that I was trying to make there, that prior to disengaging with the me, let's call it that. Yep. Prior to disengaging with the me, I couldn't let go of that.

Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't let go of it. Like, fuck. Jeez. I couldn't let, because I would, what would also follow, whilst I couldn't let go of it, if anybody had done that to my son, they'd be dead. Yeah. I would track them down, and I don't know if I'd kill them, but, you know, that'd have me to deal with, you know, if my son came to me, even now, and said, look, you know, 10 years ago, Dad, this guy, blah, blah, blah, I'd want to know where he was, what his name is, where he is now, and I don't know what I'd do.

Do they know? You know? I mean, now I'd be completely different about it. But, when I was stuck in that, you know, that happened to my son, I'd be like, fuck. Because I've experienced it. You know? Um, but the point that I was trying to make is, you know, yeah, prior to disengaging with that, there was like, you fuck. That's what I was going to ask you back, then, when you were talking about that, and I was going to ask, if someone had said to you, Ben, but there's no one there, would that have been helpful for you? Not at all. Yeah. Are you kidding me?

Yeah. Not at all. That would be like, somebody, somebody saying to me, I'm asleep in my bed, sound asleep, I'm having a nightmare, and somebody in America opened their front door of their house and whispered out of their front door, Terry, you're asleep, you're dreaming. I wouldn't have heard shit. I wouldn't have heard it. That's how I feel. When I sat back the other week, you know, he was questioning so earnestly, and he was struggling and pleading and saying, help me, and then, you know, Bob goes, well, have a look, there's no one there. Yeah. And you know, when you're trapped, enslaved by the mind and thought of that belief, for that moment, I mean it passes, but in that moment, the mind can't hear that.

Yeah. Because the mind's going, what do you mean I am here and I'm suffering? Yeah. And so... It is really a process too, that there is a, you know... Well, it's a scene. It's a scene. Yeah, that there's... I know I shouldn't say there's a process. But there is a process. I know I shouldn't, but it kind of is. There is a process. You don't come and sit here, well, maybe it happens. But from my experience and watching others, you don't turn up here for your first meeting and hear Bob talk and go, oh, boom, I'm awake, it's all done and dusted. It must not happen.

There's different points and things that happen and, you know, that's not to say that can't happen. I believe it can. It happens in many different ways for many people. Yes, there have been people. And also when Bob is offering someone to investigate in the moment, he doesn't know if the investigation is possible or not. But offering is the kindest thing you can do. That's right. Even if it pisses you off. Even if he says, fuck off, this is not helpful, I am here. But the one thing the heart can do is, well, just try, just have a look. Have a look, yeah. And ten times he will reject it and eleven times maybe it will penetrate.

Because, yeah, it seems like the layer may get thinner through which it's penetration. Yeah. Now that, all that stuff, that's like what I was saying earlier. I spent 40 years trying to fix that state. Yeah. Really trying to fix that state. Practicing forgiveness and I forgive him and, you know, I didn't know what forgiveness was really until it really dawned on me what forgiveness really is. You know, but I was practicing forgiveness and I was praying for this guy for years. Praying for him to help myself let go of it and accept and none of that worked. None of that worked. No. But I tried.

Like I, fuck man, I tried so hard. So hard to fix myself. So hard. And we'd reach out to different people and, you know, I'd spend five minutes with them and go, fuck, you're more fucked up than I am. You know. Or, you know, spending time with psychologists or counsellors or whatever. And really, their job is to make you fit. Their job, really, is to make you fit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fit is. It really is. It's kind of to make you fit, you know. And I saw that and went, that ain't it. Yeah. Just like, just like Christianity wasn't it for me or Buddhism wasn't it for me or Hinduism wasn't it.

Lots of different things I've looked at, you know. It's all the necessary. You know, you said like a process. It seems it's just that necessary flow of intelligence or life or whatever, whether it's a process or whatever, but it's just that natural, necessary flow. Yeah. It's all impersonal. Yeah. It's all, at the end of the day, it's all impersonal. So even me calling it a process, it's an impersonal process. Yeah. It's playing up with itself because sometimes, you know, I had a grievance towards people also and I would, yes, practice forgiveness and do all that stuff. Or I would understand intellectually that they are not the doers.

Yes. And that would be giving me a relief. Yeah, yeah, they have no choice because they were conditioned this way. But it was explaining it to myself so I could let go of the, yeah. And it was just brainwashing myself. Yeah, that's right. But that was still me brainwashing myself. That's right. That's exactly right. But once you realize that there really isn't anyone blowing the wind, growing the grass, breathing the body, there really isn't anyone here, how could there be anyone anywhere else? Like, you know, if the asshole who hurt me or whatever hurt my friend, because this is even worse, when something does someone to my people, whatever, and I'm ready to kill.

When I realized that there wasn't anyone there who had any choice, any saying, that the pattern of energy really was just playing as the grass is growing, how can you hate them? Yeah. Like, when I was brainwashing myself, I would understand and I would behave myself, but the hatred, the feeling, the contraction, the fury, the wanting for revenge, it would still be burning inside. Yeah. But once you really see, there is no one there. It's like Bob is giving that analogy about the Chinese guy driving the boat in the middle of a lake, and then suddenly another boat hits him. God, what are you doing?

And then he wakes up and sees there's nobody in the boat. Who is he swearing at? Yeah. Suddenly, nothing. You can't blame anyone anymore. The only thing, if you see someone hurting the other, you feel compassion. Like, you know, even the Dzogchen Tony, he was trying to tell me, oh, you are all people so close-minded, so indoctrinated. I couldn't feel offended. I was sorry that he has to say this. And with all my heart, darling, you're right. We are. We're just so uninterested in the conceptual. Was Tony saying that? Yes. Oh, Tony was saying you guys were indoctrinated. Yes. He says, oh. He says, I would, I would be better, better off.

I thought you said Max said that you're indoctrinated. No, no, no. Max shut him down, because he was saying that. He was. But you see, this is, like, not only I can't get offended, because who can offend me, you know, if they're just expressing, this is just the wind blowing through the flute, singing its own melody. And I feel compassion because what actually has, he has to feel to want to hurt someone. What, what an awful feeling is there. But also, I want him to, because he wants to be right, I wanted to give it to him. He wants to tell me I'm wrong. You're right.

Of course. I'm wrong. I'm so happy to be wrong. What's wrong with being wrong? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. What a relief, never to need to defend your point anymore. Never to need to protect yourself. If someone thinks you are worthless or an idiot or whatever, there is just wind blowing through that flute and expressing as a melody. Yeah. And it's so necessary. Again, for me, when I feel like that, I think, oh, what are you talking about? You're not agreeing with me. Why can't you see what I'm saying? It's really important to see that and get aggravated because it's something to see. Yeah. Something coming up in the space that you can see.

It's something to look at. It's all part of that investigation. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. It's not so good for him to come here and walk away frustrated. And that's something to look at. Actually, he got completely confused because even though he was really trying, and I was agreeing with him and he was frustrated because he thought it was ironic. And, well, rightfully so, it sounded ironic when I told him, of course you have bigger chance with newborn Christians than with us because we're so uninterested with thoughts and philosophies. It does sound ironic, but that's also truth. And there was compassion towards also. And I kept saying to him, you are very welcome here.

You're not going to find students here who would want to follow the thought process and thinking. But you come and you contribute. He brought up beautiful things. Like the idea of beautiful ideas. Of course, he got off the mark when he says, you know, what was it? Attributing inherent existence is an ignorance. Attributing inherent existence to absolutely anything is an ignorance. And the ignorance is, cessation of ignorance is cessation of attributing inherent existence to anything. And then he says, he says, Bob says that existence is the reality. The being is the reality. He attributed existence to being. And the next thing he says, well, I'm not denying experiences.

So you're attributing existence to experiences, right? So if you're attributing, well, to actually say that existence has or doesn't have inherent reality, you still have to exist. Yeah. So why argue about it? That's right. But that is a little bit too much if you really believe your thoughts. Yeah. It's not really. Well, but the beauty of it. The beauty of situations. It's always complicated. It's just so complicated. Even if you're faced with that, you just love it as it is. Look, if you're meditating, if that's what you're doing, just sit in that quietness. Yeah. But. Well, it's just so much more simple with that. That's so.

But. Yeah. That's his path. Yeah. But see if you can also do that whilst you're walking down the street. Well, exactly. That's right. That's what I was saying. There's 24 hours in a day. It's not. Driving. You don't have to, you know, officially sit in meditation. No. To experience that. And that's what meditation is. It's totally done. It's not just sitting before. Because there's noise going on in your head whilst you're sitting there meditating. Just like there's noise going on in your head. Of course. Whilst you're walking down the street. Or driving on in your car. That's right. It's just standing in that meditate to the scene.

Of being the state all the time. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for watching this video! Thank you.