Non Duality Bob's Sailor Kat

Yeah, they do. It's all part of spiritual life. Yeah, he's still out and he's out. And he's still a neighbour. I don't know what he's saying, but he doesn't have a conscience. Well, he's perfect, you know. Well, it always was. Well, he said he was stepping down something. He said, I have enough trouble standing up. Can we have your names, just in case someone... Sure, Terry. Tony. Tony. Tony. Emma. Alex. Robin. Cut. Okay, so we're ready. I'll be improvising because that's the best way to be. Whatever comes up. Starting from the fact that we are already that. Because if we start anywhere else, there is really a dead end.

If we are not already that, if we would have to get it in some future time or become something, that's impossibility because time is mine. And so there is no other time than now. And now is the only time to realise that whatever we are after, if we're looking for whatever enlightenment or realisation of freedom or self or truth, it is now or never. So the best way to look at it is to see that whatever is, whatever is right now is what we are looking for. It may be covered by ideas, by concepts, by sense of contraction, by the story that, oh, I didn't get it yet.

I'm not that yet. But then we have the beautiful bag of pointers, the whole bag of tools which help us to see what's reality of it, what's really happening. Like the way Bob is pointing, using different traditions, he's using Hinduism, for instance, talking about Advaita, which is not two. It's not even one really, it's the emptiness which is form, form which is emptiness, but it's just one. Just one, not even one, that vast space like awareness vibrating into different shapes, forms and patterns. But it's always only one, so there can't be even one. So how could we be anything other than that one, if there is nothing else outside or apart from it?

It's one way of looking at it. Another way that comes also from Hinduism is Satchitananda, which means being consciousness bliss or awareness of beingness bliss, of stillness. And that points out that this awareness, this presence awareness of being aware of stillness is the reality, whilst everything else is not a reality. Like they say Satchitananda Nama Rupa. So reality is space, presence, the being, this is what's real. And Nama Rupa names, forms, objects, bodies, the Maya, the illusion, the manifestation. It seems counter-intuitive for people who, all of us, who used to think all our lives. Because the way we were conditioned is that we basically start naming, labeling things.

Like when we look at the baby, little baby, when the baby is born, it doesn't have any words. It doesn't have any database with the memories stored there. So it doesn't have any way to relate to whatever it knows. And it takes a while before that baby can actually even distinguish the face or the voice of the mother from the rest of the appearance. And when it starts distinguishing it, when it starts recognizing the seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, all senses that are one with the mind, that are connected with the mind. They actually learn to overlook the silence and focus on the objects. So our attention has been trained since very early age to overlook the reality and focus on the appearance, on the manifestation.

And later on the manifestation gets labeled, it gets even more real, it gets even more focused. And this is how the whole dream comes into existence. It gets attention. So if we deselect out of the stream of sensations, of floating sensations, we deselect objects and we label them and we give them this energy of belief or we give them attention, they become more and more real. And that's how, as we grow up, the world, the appearance solidifies until the point that it seems so solid and so real that it's easier to question the space and silence than to question the solidity of the chair or the body.

While, as they say, and when we investigate, we can find it to be true, this is a dream. This body is being dreamt. It's being believed. There is nothing solid or substantial about it, never was and couldn't be. There is nothing solid about any of the forms. They come and go, they disappear. While the thing that never changes is the emptiness, is the space, is the being, is the knowing of being. So it is, it is counter-intuitive when we look at it, when we say that objects, forms are maya, they don't exist, they're fiction. And reality, space, what we can't see, is what is, is the reality.

Awareness of being is the reality. We know that we are. We, there is a knowing of being. And there is joy in the knowing of being. Unless there is destruction, then the joy is obscured by the destruction, by thinking. But even though it sounds counter-intuitive, when we actually look into it, as Bob is asking questions, are you unaware? You know, we are aware, are we unconscious? Are we not existing? The knowing of being is there, and it is a fact. What else is the fact? What else is as certain as the knowing of being? Is the body as certain, or the thoughts as certain? They're gone when we go to sleep.

I mean, you know, when I go to sleep, I may be climbing mountains or going a couple of times, or even looking in the mirror, and there was a different face there. There was a different body. There was a different sound. There was a different scenery. Even this sense of this body, and this thinking, even, even the sense of my name disappears in a dream. Like, this is all temporary. It is all connected with that. We open the eyes, and the world shows up. Close the eyes, there's no world. But the awareness of being doesn't disappear. It's still there. It doesn't depend whether I'm awake or asleep.

It doesn't depend whether my eyes are open or closed. So how much more real is something that is always there, never changing? The awareness of being. While the content of that awareness, the forms, the objects, the sounds, the taste, the smells, the thoughts, they are floating around. They're totally unreliable. So now, the child is learning how to separate and focus on different objects. And then, at some point, it also starts reasoning. It starts relating, evaluating. It starts relating the objects to themselves, identifying with the body. And then, suddenly, everything gets yet another layer of, another veil. Like, it gets covered. So now, the carpet is not just carpet.

This is the carpet in my home. Or this is the carpet that I don't like. And everything becomes personal. People's reaction becomes personal. Even the weather in the TV can become personal. Because this is my story. This is about me. And because that me, it has inherent sense of insecurity, of unworthiness, of vulnerability. Because, well, when you limit totality, the blissful, unlimited, sky-like awareness being absolute into any sort of contracted form. Even if that's the biggest body or the greatest body, that body will still feel not enough. Because, naturally, it isn't. It's not a natural state to put that limiting belief on it. So, then, the search starts.

Then, suffering starts. Unhappiness and trying to find a way out of it. By different means. Like, yeah. Didn't we try everything? Like, trying sedatives? Or trying hunting pleasures? Getting more adventures? Or more friends? Or more excitement? Or more knowledge? Or more understanding? Getting more experiences? Whether they're ashram experiences? Or they're drug experiences? Or sexual experiences? Anything that will make it more complete? But does it work? Did anyone ever felt any sense of lasting satisfaction from adding to that fictitious sense of limited self? And if it does, how long does it last? I mean, even if I get my dream car or dream job or dream whatever, how long does it last before the mind goes on the search again?

And it doesn't matter whether it's search money or it's search enlightenment. It's still trying to get out of this moment as it is. Because this is uncomfortable. This is no good. I mean, the way I am right now is, it feels contracted. It's tight. It's unhappy. It's miserable. Or even if it's good for a moment, well the next moment, it's not going to last. It's going to go away. It's going to change. What am I going to do in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years? It's a misery. It's a suffering. So trying to run out from what is, from the way the reality took shape right now.

Trying to find lasting happiness and fulfillment. Trying to find the relief from anxiety, from fear, from fearing the future, from fearing of not being able to fulfill my potential or letting someone down, letting the world down. This is all trying to, this is all subtle resistance. This is all basically wrestling with the world. Like the way the world is right now, the way I am right now is no good. Something has to change. So this is the seeking mind. The mind that is constantly trying to fix something, alter, modify, change. It's no good as it is. And why is it no good? What is wrong with this moment?

What is wrong if we don't think? What is wrong if the idea of future doesn't cross my mind? What is wrong if I don't think about it, really? I mean, even if there is physical pain, but there is no resistance to pain. There is no idea that anything should be different. If there is no idea, basically the life as it is, the world as it is, the moment as it is, is perfect. It's as it is, really. It's no good or bad. It's just as it is. And this is as simple as it is. There is nothing more to it. When there is no idea obscuring that sense of being, that awareness of presence.

If there is no thought that is telling me that I am the body, or that I am a person, or that I am limited, if those head stuff are not available, there is absolutely nothing wrong. It is as it is. And now, I am aware of the being, and it is peaceful, and it is alright. And there may be some content popping up, also to be aware of, or to be appreciated. There may be feelings, thoughts, sights, sounds, whatever, they are coming and going. And if we look at them, what they are, well, they basically, they tell us their illusion, their maya, their emptiness shaping into form.

But they are just a beautiful dream. Like, what is the sound? It's a vibration of silence. The movement of energy that creates the sound. What is the light? That's also a wave vibrating. What are the forms? The atoms vibrating. This is all, really, nothing. Vibrating into different forms, shapes, patterns. Just playing out. Just showing up. Nothing, yet it is seen. It shows up. And who am I, if I don't think about it? What am I, if I don't have any concept about being body? What am I, if I don't have the mental image of my own face? Do I even have it? Do I even have the face?

If I don't hold mental image in my head? If I do hold it, I can push it aside. And what's the real experiencing? What is really being experienced in the absence of focus going to the head? Yeah, let's figure it out. Just breathing's happening effortlessly. Nobody has to do anything about it. We can have the ideas that there is blood pumped in the body, but we can't really experience it as a blood if we don't have a concept about it. It's just being. And there is a bundle of sensations. There is kind of, yeah, sensations. Like we can't even say where they are. Like, you know, like sitting the bum on the chair.

I can't even say that there is a location to it. The only thing I know about it is that sensation. And the sensation isn't located anywhere, because I am unlocated also. So it's very simple. When we don't go to the head and we don't listen to the story about what's important, then being is very, very simple. Just like the animals are being, the trees are being. They don't really have any problems with anything. They effortlessly exist. But what happens when we learn words, when we get conditioned by the society and we want to medicate that sense of luck and we start hunting for pleasure and avoiding pain.

And we're trying to get something and keep it or push away something else. And so that resistance builds up and that resistance becomes very personal. And that sense of resistance is added to the sense of being. Not only that, to the sense of being, the way Bob is presenting it is beautiful. Like there is just sense of presence. And then suddenly the little child learns that, oh yeah, but this is me, I'm little Johnny. Okay, so what else am I going to add to it? Yeah, I'm a boy, a good little boy or a bad little boy. And then as I'm growing up, oh, I've been into this school.

I have these experiences or this conditioning or this traumas or this bad childhood or whatever. And that grows and attention constantly sustain it. So it becomes more and more solid and it becomes more and more hungry. It wants more to add to itself because the sense of luck, the void in there, the natural expansion is being contracted into that limited space. But this black hole of void is still there. The original presence, the awareness of presence hasn't been obscured. And it can't be touched. Like how can, what can you do to space? It doesn't even exist. It is a no thing. It can't be touched.

So it is only seemingly covered by the appearance, covered by the story, by the thinking that are seemingly believed. And then individual gets solid. And then importance comes about. The society that tells us that we have to become someone. And that's important. And as I speak to people, I see that kind of the whole personal stories, they always rumble around the jobs, relationships. Well, even with job, that's still relationship. My relation to my boss, my relation to money, my relation to my family or to my friends. And it's so important. And I can sit and talk with a person and I say, okay, but how does it really matter if that's all Maya?

If that's just a dream, if it's just the content of the dream. Oh, yeah, yeah, but you don't understand, you know, I need to pay my bills. Yeah, right. But yeah, it is relatively important. Sure. But how it how important it really is, like what's really important, because that's the key to finding that devotion and the commitment to real investigation. If finding the money for the bill or building a career or becoming famous actor or something is more important. Well, of course, that's where the energy is going to go. That's where the attention is going to go. And that's what is going to develop in the dream.

So if if there is no if there is no commitment in a way like what Nisargadatta was calling earnestness, if there is no devotion towards it, if that very, very simplicity of being is not of the paramount importance. If that's not the most beautiful, fascinating, beloved, whatever, you can't even call it state of think or anything, this is nothing. But if that very nothing doesn't get your heart, then your heart will go elsewhere. Your heart will go to the career or whatever. So again, nothing can be done for the heart to go into itself. But somehow the resonance can actually serve the purpose. Somehow it finds its own way to itself by resonating with the message.

So throughout the ages, throughout millennia, people were pointing into it. And that was always the same message. Whichever way they would put it in words, the kingdom is within, or I am is the world, I am is the light, I am is the way, or there is omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, there is nothing else, only ever fresh, non-conceptual presence awareness, nothing else exists. The same message in different language, in different way of pointing, showing that what really, really matters, what really, the only thing that matters, is the awareness of being. Not the thinking, not trying to understand it with the thought, not the stories that are going on about my life.

But just that very essence, that very base, the screen of being. It seems hard to start with because when we first hear it, we hear it with the only device available, what we were doing throughout the whole life. We were hearing things through the filter of translating services through the mind. So when someone says, focus on the nothing, what is it, what's in it for me, the mind says, nah, the nothing is boring. Like what, how can I stay in nothing? Mind can't do that. Because the very nature in the way the mind works is, is vibration. Mind, the thought, is vibration. The thought is like a subtle sound.

It is just a vibration of energy. And the way it actually vibrates, when we learn words, it vibrates to the pairs of opposites. So absolutely everything thinkable, conceivable, all perceivable, lands in the scale between two extreme words. Black and white, or any shade of grey, good or bad, or any shade of semi-good, medium, whatever. Everything goes into some sort of a fixed description, which is between two extremes always. So it vibrates in a limited duality. And here, what we are focusing on, is singularity. So singularity cannot be grasped with dualistic mind. Because it doesn't have the opposite. And for the mind, it really, precisely is the nothing.

So the nothing cannot be grasped with the device that has been tuned all their life to distinguish names and forms. It can't do it. But because when we first hear it, we only use the mind. There is no other way of hearing things than through the mind. So we basically just, oh yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Oh, yeah, I heard something similar in the past. Oh, maybe it means that. And we just keep overloading. We keep thinking over the thinking. And we cover it up with even more concepts. And it doesn't really work this way. Because the way out of that conceptual mess is to stop thinking.

Is to stop trying to understand and grasp it with the mind. Because it can't be done. Mind is duality. And this dualistic mind appears in the nothing. It appears in the space. It appears in what I am. So I am the basic screen. I am the knowing. The mind is just a vibration within the knowing. Because I can be aware of the vibration of the mind. I am the awareness. And the mind is content. And of course when we are speaking about the space and the content. We are using language. And it totally sounds like duality. Yes. Space. Content. Emptiness forms. Two, right? Yes, sure.

And that is the only thing we can do with the language. There is no other way to speak than using the dualistic language. So every pointer we ever use is by definition. When it contains words, by definition is wrong. It's dualistic. There is no way to point into non-duality using the language. The best way to point it is to shut up. And stay in silence. But then see how long you can last in the silence. Because the mind will kick in. And we will start speaking inside. We will start carrying on with the inner dialogue. So whether I will be speaking shit here. Or I will sit silent and your mind will transmit something or the other.

There is still not a silence. Because silence is... Well, again, silence and sound. Sounds like two. That's duality. Flip side of the coin. But when I'm saying silence, I'm not meaning the absent of sound. I'm meaning the basic screen. When we hear the sound and absence. Like same as space. Space is not the absence of object or the space between the objects. Basic screen is on which the object and the absence, they both play out. So it is ungraspable. The word space can be taken as a duality opposite of the form. Or as a basic screen on which the both opposites play out. But that's ungraspable.

For the mind it's something that is not to be understood. Because it can only be understood when the mind gets off the way. So when the mind is not, that's what they call peace that passes all understanding. When the mind is not, what problem can we ever have? With anything. It's nothing wrong without the thinking. It's nothing good or bad like Shakespeare said. Nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so. Without going to the head and going into that mental noise that is very entertaining. But also very disturbing and distracting. Without that understanding, thinking, conceptualizing what is ever wrong. Without this going on, we basically drop down to the heart of the matter.

To the essence of being. And in that, there is nothing wrong. There is nothing really going on. It's silence, stillness, space. It's just bliss of being. It's just as it is. And so to start with, to be able to even taste it for a moment. Because it seems to, throughout the lifelong conditioning, it seems to be reacquired taste. Because we have found so much. And again, as little children, that was the survival strategy. The moment we were appreciated for learning words. For being smart little kid. For developing in the way of intellectual development. That was survival strategy to stay in that space of conceptualizing. But also, that was the way to run away from traumatic, painful emotions.

That was the way to run away from the, from the feeling. From confusion. From, see how, how we, on the way of thinking. How we assume we know something when we put the label on something. Like, every single thing is absolute mystery. Even a quantum mechanics that looks at these particles playing out. And you can twist one. And on the other side of the galaxy, the other one twists. It's absolute mystery. But we think, ah, that's a chair. Okay. No mystery. Now, we know what it is. There is a knowing. And that knowing gives us a false sense of confidence. Yeah, okay. I know what I am.

I am a human being. Person, body, whatever. And now I don't have to think about it. I don't have to worry about it. I know it. I know that's a chair. No. That intellectual knowing, which is just labeling. It has nothing to do with really embracing, with the heart, the true nature of a mystery of the appearance. It's a joke of a knowing. It's nothing really known when we put the label. But it gives us a false sense of security. Same as when we were growing up. We got the prize, a little bit of appreciation, pat on the back. You're right. You're going to be good.

You're going to be fine. Okay. Okay. I feel a bit better. So now I'm going to be chasing it forever. I'm going to be chasing another part. I'm going to be people pleasing. I'm going to be junkie, attention junkie. Because that space of connectiveness with everything, that space of boundaryless being, has naturally been abandoned by conditioning. And there's no one to blame for it. This is exactly how, how the whole dream came about. This is, one could say, thy will. If we want to call it, die or whatever. This is exactly how the absolute, or the totality, plays with itself. Plays, hide and seek. Like, how would it ever get liberated, if it has never been trapped or contracted?

It couldn't. And it doesn't. Because the sense of contraction is a false, is seemingly so. It's a dream. It's not real. Never was, never was, never could be, never will be. So the sense of enlightenment is also a completely false idea. It's a dream. There is no such a thing as enlightenment. There is no state or thing that anyone could get and grasp and own or achieve or attune to. There is no such a thing. That's not a thing. That's not a thing. And there is no one who could possibly get it or achieve it or attune to. Because there is only just that one sense of presence.

That just one vastness of knowing, awareness, being, stillness, whatever way you call it. On which the labels have been put, which seemingly become divided and separated and became the Maya. It created itself to look at itself. But what it looks at is really vibrating into different patterns of energy and nothing. The nothing that moves, it's not even really moving. It's just, it's a mystery. It can't be explained in the, in the, in the physics. But as close as you can get to it. The way the whole totality has a glimpse of its own self is by opening that one eye of the Shiva and looking at the Maya.

And knowing that it is the Maya. Knowing that it is the dream. Looking at nothing. Looking at nothing. Nothing looking at nothing. Recognizing itself as nothing. And loving itself in it. Because once you see the dream for what it is, the dream, it doesn't lose any of its reality. The objects are not any less solid. The toothache is not any less painful. It still appears as real as anything. But once you know it's not, this is like WOW. Seriously? This is really nothing. But it looks so real. Shit, I'm a genius. I, totality, life. How genius. How beautiful. When we take it for granted, yeah, that is what it is.

Suffering. Human world. Suffering. Why me? The world doesn't look fascinating. Doesn't look friendly. Doesn't look juicy. It's not beautiful at all. It's quite nasty. And it's hostile. But once you understand that all of it is made of the very substance of you, of yourself. And you actually have the glimpse of your own self showing up as all this. Like, poof. Wow. This is incredible. And those are the moments when the love plays in the picture. When it's not just plain nothing. Yeah, okay. I'm nothing. So, it's not really just that. Because everything stands clear in front of you. Everything appears as real as ever. Or even more.

Because when I'm not going into the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, then much, much, much, more attention, much, much more energy goes into hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling. So, everything is experienced so much more profoundly. So, much more intensely. Everything is more alive. It's more prominent. It's more radiant. Because the commentary doesn't, doesn't take this attention away from what is. So, now the dream becomes really beautiful. And every person that I'm meeting is an absolute mystery. And it's a genius. It's a genius. It's a genius. Because it could have been nothing. And it is nothing. But it shows up in this beautiful dress. Like, how can you not totally fall in love with the Maya?

With the illusion? Knowing that it is not there. It is not it. It is a dream. But look at this. Look at this. Look at this. Dreams at night can do the same thing. But we usually realize they were dream only when we wake up. Well, this one can be realized while it is still dream. Like, the dream is still dream. This body is being dreamt. I, the life, dream the body. And I, the life, dream that room. It is, it is, it is being dreamt right now. I'm speaking in a dream to the dream figures. But I know it's a dream. It's this completely different texture, the completely different quality to it.

I don't take it. I don't take it that seriously anymore. It can't hurt me. It can hurt the body and the body will scream. But I'm not the body. So that's, that's the invitation. But it can only happen if the head is outside the door. The way Bob says it. If you come here, leave your head with your shoes outside the door. And come with the open heart. Listen with the heart. Because that message is not in the words that are spoken. The words are duality. The words are all wrong. Silent sound, too. Duality. Emptiness form, duality, too. They're all rubbish. And every single pointer, the most beautiful pointers.

And Bob is my definitely favorite on every single possible level. And he's got the most brilliant, beautiful pointers. But they're all rubbish. Because they're all words. They're all dualistic. They all have opposites. But the frequency. But the frequency. The sense of certainty that comes, the radiance of the, of the understanding that is put into these words as he speaks. That's what the head can't hear. But that's what the core or the essence of the body, that's what the heart of the matter can resonate. Because every one of you is here now is knowing of that being. And that very knowing of being is precisely what we all look for.

And this is a joke because it seems like it is. How can that, how can you get away of it? How can you move away from it? It can't be hidden. It can't be taken away. It has always ever been here. It's like once you realize that, that idea, the ego, the sense of contraction. No, no, no. This is some me on it. And the life is mine. The problems are mine. I don't care if somebody else's child is dying. But this is my child dying. So it is important. Those are the content. Those are the content superimposed on that vastness knowing of being. So if I see that content, okay, the personal story, the personal component, the emotional, sorry, component, it's just the content.

Okay, some idea of me, separate me comes, plays out on the screen of awareness. See how long it will last. See how long that me will be hanging on here. But I've been there for many, many years and every time I was waking up from the me that was playing out on the screen, I was very, very disappointed. Again, me being disappointed with the me from which I just woke up. So the gaps were very, very, very short. That was just a brief split second like, oh shit, I've done it again. Oh, stupid me. There you go. Back in the, back in the identification. It was impossible.

It was absolutely impossible. And it will ever always be impossible for the me to wake up from the me. It's not the me that wakes up. It's not the me. The emptiness, the nothingness wakes up. And it realizes that it has always and ever been there. The sense of presence, the knowing that I am, it has always been there. But suddenly there is no destruction going on anymore. There is no idea that, oh yeah, but this is me knowing. This is me knowing of presence. No, no, no. This is the knowing. Not me knowing, but just pure knowing. And a me is an idea. It's a thought.

If I don't think that thought, what is it? If I pause the thought or I ask what's wrong with right now, if the me thought is not there, is the awareness of being gone? No, it's not. It's still there. It's just like Bob is saying. We have the idea that, oh, this is the me. And that me is not only the me is aware of being. It's not the pure knowing. It's the me, the I. I am aware of my being. Just as much as I am aware of my age, of my sex, of my past, of my future, of my plans. And not only that, I'm also having a capacity of seeing, you see.

I, the me, is looking and can see things, can calculate, can eat and shit. Like, does it really? Like the way Bob says, can you really digest your food? The I, the entity, can it do it? It can't. Can the entity really see? It can't. Like, how easy to prove it? Close your eyes. Can you see? No. No. Okay, the entity is not seeing. So what is seeing? Of course, the seeing is happening through the eyes. Because eyes are a little camera for this, for this biocomputer. But are the eyes seeing? Damn, no. No. Pluck your eye and put it on the table. See if it can see.

It needs the power. The camera needs the power. It needs the electricity to be able to see. So the life essence has to power that cameras, has to power that body to be able to experience anything. See, hear, anything. So what is seeing? And again, this is, this is where the trap happens. Because the way, when we start using the brain and using the logic and thinking, the very habit, the very first thing mind does, because it vibrates into a dualistic pairs of opposites, it right away says, okay, there is someone who is seeing and something that is seen. So basically, the seeing gets divided.

So now there is me seeing this. But really, and this is again how beautifully Bob is showing it. What if there was no me? What if there was no me? Is the seeing still there? If the body does disappear, doesn't sit here. Is the seeing still there? Nope. So basically, the seer and the seen are the one with the seeing. It's impossible for the seeing to exist. And it's impossible to any of the components to be separated. So seeing, seen and seer can't be separated. Because if one of them is gone, the whole thing is gone. So seeing is just one. There's nobody who is seeing.

It's just the pure activity. It's the space that is being cognized. And in Buddhism, they call it cognizing emptiness. So it is the emptiness with the capacity of cognizing. And how it cognizes? It cognizes through seeing. So seeing is part of the cognizing. Hearing is part of the cognizing. The tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking. They're all part of the cognizing. But who is cognizing? Is there an entity that is doing it? Like is the entity growing the body? No. Is the entity looking? No. It is just pure activity. Just like pure activity of seeing. Pure activity of cognizing. But it's no one who is doing the cognizing.

The cognizing or the knowingness or the awareness is all there is. And you can't even say the awareness is. Because it is nothing. So it isn't. It isn't. It's the emptiness. So it's a paradox. Again, for the mind, awareness is all. So okay, make up your mind. Is it or isn't? None and neither or both. For the mind, the answer is impossible. It neither is nor isn't. Because the language is a vibration. It's duality. It's always wrong. Whichever position you put on the language is always wrong. But there you go. The reality of this moment is the awareness of being. There is some content going on also in that screen, on that screen.

And what else do we need? There is an idea superimposed on this. That yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm almost getting it. I'm almost, you know, like, oh gosh, I've unpacked like 90% of it, you know. It's just, yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand it. I've read so many books. I heard so many talks. I'm understanding it. It's just a little bit more of the effort of the mind and I will get it. Yeah, I've been doing it for like 20 years. And I was smart enough. I could actually really feel that, shit, I've got like 90% of it. It's like just that one tiny little bit that will flip me over.

No. It is never ever going to happen. Because mind is duality. It can't. It's impossible. It can't grasp. It's like cognizing emptiness. The space-like awareness. The mind is just a minute expression in it. Just like one tree would want to know. Like one wave would want to know the ocean. It's just absurd. It can't do it. But it feels like almost, shit, I had so many glimpses. They were all coming from thinking. No. Quite the contrary. All the glimpses come when we give up. Like, all right. I can't. Fuck that shit. And then, oh my god. What was it? And try to grasp it. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, yeah. What was it? What was it? I have to write it down. I'm writing it down and it's gone. It's not. It's trying to hold on to the insights. It's, again, it's trying to grasp the insight with the mind. This is the heart knowing. Heart doesn't need the mind. And of course, I'm not talking about physical heart. It's not even the emotional center. It's not. Because emotional center is basically the response in the body to the thought. It's like, it's emotional component to the thinking. No, I'm talking about the core of the being. The heart of the essence. It's like, it's an easy, easy enough word to relate to.

So, I don't mean that in the ordinary sense. But, I mean, when we drop off from the head, when the conceptualizing is not going on. Like, since in Ming, when he says, when you stop talking and thinking, there is nothing you won't be able to know. And that's as simple as that. If we stop talking and thinking, what questions do we have? What do we need to know? What is unknown? Like, everything that needs to be known in the moment is known. And an awareness of being, the presence of awareness never goes. And that's the one thing that is real. And that's the one thing that is important.

All there is is rubbish. It's the content of the dream. However beautiful or however dreadful. And doesn't really matter. This is the most difficult. Because what actually prompted us to start seeking and searching is the suffering. And now somebody comes here and sits and tells you, you know, it doesn't matter if you suffer. Shit, you know, crucify me. That's a horrible thing to say. Horrible. I'm crying with my friends who are still crying. Of course it matters. But how important it is comparing to the reality, to the presence of awareness, to knowing of being. It seems like it's so huge and so overwhelming and so big and so real.

That sense of being, sense of presence is completely out of the picture. We don't even put a structure of awareness, of attention, on that consciousness. We completely forgot it doesn't matter. Yeah. And that's why the suffering is so profound. That's why it is so blowed off. Because if the attention goes back and rests on itself, suffering just is like a balloon. It completely, once the attention doesn't go there, it just flattens out. And then whether I'm ugly or poor or stupid or whatever, who cares? I mean, in all the other bodies, I'm beautiful and smart and rich. Like, who cares? It's just one of the bodies and being the being.

And having my heart in the reality, in the essence, in the nature of being. Who cares whether I live under a bridge or whatever happens? Of course, it's not sustainable. It's not... When the attention is on being, I probably won't go to work. So, life regulates it. Life regulates it the way it does. So, there are people who are sitting in this Sahaja Samadhi or whatever and they just zombie out and they are fed with the teaspoon and whatever. That's how life expresses through those. Through us, it expresses differently. When the thought is required, thought appears. When the thought of food is required, the cooking appears.

When the money is required, job appears. And it's nothing to really... It's not to encourage people to just sit and bliss out on the awareness of being and hold it in the mind. Because this is not the mind that should hold it. This is really about dropping the heart. About having the heart for the being, for the reality. Holding the thought in the mind is absolute absurd. It's totally, totally not the way to go. It's dropping off the mind. And again, it can't be done. It can only be recognized. If there is a devotion towards that reality of being, then that activity of the mind is going to be recognized.

And the beauty of it, when the activity of mind is going on, and it is recognized from the space of being, there is no resistance to the activity of the mind. So, Tony, like you were saying, you have the hyperactive mind and you have problem with attention. When you recognize that very pattern from the heart of the essence, you just look at it lovingly. You say, oh, you're such a darling. Oh, sweetheart. Sweetheart. There is no idea that, oh, shit, you should not shove up. No. Everything is as it is. It's okay. There is nothing wrong anymore. It's nothing wrong with anything. It's nothing wrong with the activity of the mind.

It's nothing wrong even if too much attention or focus or identification goes into it. Because everything happens on its own accord. If there is a little bit of the heart towards the reality, that recognition will be coming more and more often. Until the point that, like Bob says, sometimes he's missing out on that chatter of the mind, and he is actually waiting, and he has to force himself to kick it started. And, of course, there's no him to force himself, but that's the way to express it. Because, well, let's not fool ourselves. Stories are beautiful. Mind is entertaining. Science is gorgeous. Art is fabulous. It is all to be appreciated.

It is all to be loved. And it is all important, and it's all juicy. And life regulates it. Because it is nothing wrong. The way life is experiencing itself through each one of us is exactly the way it wants to experience itself. It is the way it... And if there is selfing going on, oh, this is me, this is about me, this is important, well, that's exactly thy will. And if it's selfing stopping, our insights are flowing, that's also thy will. And if there is a commitment to sit in silence and drop to the heart or stop the mind, that's also thy will. And if there is not, still, there's really, really nothing wrong.

There's nothing to be done. The one thing that is actually... Well, it's nothing to be done. The recognition, waking up to what is going on, is still spontaneously happening. It's nothing to be done because there's no one to do anything. Because the person that we may believe ourselves to be is not real. So how could it do anything? How could it commit to anything? How could it decide or anything or choose anything? It can't. Anything that comes, any mistake that is, seeming mistake that is committed or any problem that shows up, is life having it. If I abuse someone or kick someone or hit another car, that life has done it.

Life has this body available for expression. And, well, if that body is not very well trained and it can't skate or is a poor driver, well, that's what life has to utilize and that's what life is experiencing through it. That's the availability of it. Also, life is looking through these eyes. That's not my eyes and that's not me looking. That's life. And so it is in each one of us. Even though there may be idea that there is a little Santa Claus looking. But again, these ideas, these beliefs, we know, and Bob is beautifully pointing out how beliefs when investigated and questioned they fall apart.

Oh, yeah, I'm talking. Yeah, okay. Yeah, please, ask questions. Please, Tony, join in. Please. No, no, no. I think you were just going to go the next four hours. Oh, I could go forever. Yeah, I love that topic. It's just, I was really tired when I sat on this chair but as I'm speaking and she's, oh, gosh. It's the energy built off your pipe. Yeah, same happens with Bob when he speaks about it. Same happens with everyone. And Terry. I'll see Terry do it too. Yeah. Do you guys go in here? Oh, yeah, Tony, thanks for going. I can ask. It's fine. You, well done.

I mean, I've come from a different perspective. I know. Tell us your perspective. But, well, it's going to be too hard to explain it all. So, but the main thing is what I say is if you try to filter it through what Katerina's saying or through an adviter or through a that thing, then it'll be all missed. So you have to, and if you start saying, like I jumped on Robin there a month ago, and Robin was saying it's all the same thing and I still think it's all the same thing. Yeah, no, that's okay. But it's, so anyway, there's something in it, but I'll, I'll, I'll just approach it this way, you know, on, you know, now, I'll, I'll just mention a few, a lot of the things you were saying.

Yeah, go for it. Now, you're saying that you're, you're presenting a very much adviter message, very much on the board, on, as adviter. I've gone off adviter, you know, now. I see, yeah. I don't, I used to sort of go along with it, I used to, for people's benefit, I used to follow Dzogchen, which is a Buddhist thing. And the real Dzogchen is, you know, is real, but the stuff that I was reading, and all of it, most of it, had an adviter flame to it. And the, the inter, the words, you know, because most of the people who wrote and translated these, had an adviter background.

And so they were translating the Dzogchen in terms of adviter language. And so, while I'm following Dzogchen, I'm coming up with much the same as adviter, with what, what you're talking about. And, you know, that, but, but, as I started to look into an emptiness, because I got sick of it all, I found, so I looked into the emptiness, and I wasn't, because I was getting, I was always, I could always see something not quite right with a adviter. I could see what it was, but it wasn't going to, I wasn't going to convince anyone. I was convinced, but I didn't have enough, sort of, I needed to look at it.

And it's when I'll just say, the emptiness teachings of, of Buddhism, that, it's only been a few months, and I've hardly spent any time because I've been working my guts out. But, so it's only lately that, and, and the, what I've found is that the Buddhists are, there's a real, there's a real rivalry, if you want to say, between the Buddhists and the adviter. the adviter comes from a Hindu, the adviter is sort of thing, and, and the Hinduism was around a thousand years before Buddhism. Mm-hmm. But Buddhism arose as a, and to show the flaws in adviter. And I won't tell you what that flaw is, I'll ask you some questions.

Please. And I'll just read out what you've said many times. Uh-huh. And, now these are some of the things that, there's nothing, we are already that, I'm going to ask you what that is. Yeah. Nothing outside of that. Mm-hmm. There's, we are the awareness of stillness, is, now, some of the other ones. Mm-hmm, good. The thing that never changes is beingness. Beingness is used all the time. Yes, yes. Again and again, presence of awareness. Right. Awareness is used all the time. Yes. And the, the presence of awareness is real, very real. Yeah, yeah, let me. Hold on, I'll just give you a few more. Uh-huh.

You've got beingness again. Mm-hmm. And, so on. Voidness, it can't be touched and so on. So, you know, you're referring to a lot of, you're referring to that or beingness or awareness. Now, I know that'll be attributable and it will be nothing. Yeah. You're already smart enough for that. Thank you. Now, now, all those, all the, is there something at all, see, it comes over, it comes over in Bob's message. It's always talking about intelligence energy and circulating the blood through your things and this, that. It's keeping the planets in place. Now, and there's always, the Hinduism, there's always an I am, that. There's no I am in Buddhism or that.

There's no that's or I am-ness. Now, is this, is this, that or this beingness and that, there's something there? Yes, see, in Buddhism, is there something there? No. In Buddhism, they call it non-conceptual, ever-fresh, presence, awareness, just this, nothing else. That's the Buddhist. They call it non-conceptual, ever-fresh, presence, awareness or non-conceptual awareness. Now, you're only just what you're bringing people. No, but it doesn't, it is, but it doesn't mean that this is a thing. See, because we're using language, we're using labels. There's an inherent, you're indicating an inherency of something. No, that's not a thing. It is not an object. Absolutely not. it's attributeless, that's right.

We know that. But it's not even attributeless object. It's not even attributeless object. It is not an object because this is what you are. you're talking about something all the time. Yes. Now, so you're alluding to something. Now, it doesn't, that something doesn't have to be a thing or an object or something with characteristics. There's an alluding to a, if you want to call it, a transcend, I'll use, because I've read the, I've read the Hindu stuff. These are some of the words for a thing. the uncaused, the eternal witness, the one without a second, the substratum, the universal consciousness, and you can go on.

And these are words that are used to signify some ultimate reality. It's like, I know there's no ultimate. You'll, you'll try and get around that one. And, but we're using the words, but it's signifying as though there is some ultimate thing because how could any of this be here? That's what Bob said. Well, if it wasn't for that, you couldn't even be here. Well, you know what, it's a different answer to it. There's a that, and there's some ultimate thing there. I know I'm not going to get anywhere at the moment with anyone. Well, Tony, I actually agree with you, and this is very, very good, no, it's a good point that you are making.

It is good, very good point because when we are describing it, it seems like it is an it while it isn't because it's not a thing, it's not an object, it's not an attributableist object, and it's not even an it because to be it, it would have to be something separate from what I am. See, you'll have to drop all of that now. It's just what's left when you're not thinking about it. No, it's not about not thinking. See, see another thing. Sorry, I only said not being attributing, not comparing. I'll give you an example of not thinking about it and so on. It's like behind that, there's an idea that there are thoughts and they're in linear succession and one thought follows another thought and there can be a gap in between and often, and it's a useful thing, is to sort of meditate on that gap or that stillness or that silence, the gap between thoughts.

That doesn't mean it that way. No, I know you're not, but I'll just make you know. I'll label it. But I know you're not, but I'm, now, with that gap, you see, we think there are and the stillness and it's just this wonderful stillness and we haven't got that. Well, you see, there is no, there is no one thought followed by another one with a gap in between and if we try and increase that gap and the more we increase that gap, the better we stay and they're Buddhist things as well but the fact is everything's empty and the thoughts are empty and one thought following another is also empty.

The idea of a gap is empty. There are no gaps. There's, you know, there are no thoughts to start off with. No thought following another. No thought following another. No thought following another. Nothing. Yeah, yeah. But ultimately, there is no talk, there is no room, there are no people. And there's no examination. Yeah, I know. So there are no questions also. I know all that. So you don't have any doubts, there are no doubts, there is no questioning going on. Oh, I completely refute the whole thing. Exactly. So you even refute yourself speaking in the room. You can't see it. You see, the basic, the basic philosophy of the Buddhism is, it's, and then on duality, is a non-duality that transcends existence and non-existence.

Now, you may not be, but I know the Advaita behind it. They, everything's illusory, Maya, except one thing. Now, and, and that's the one without a second, the Brahman. It's a basic, it's the whole thing, and that does exist. That's real. That's the thing. But do they have a picture of it? Do they have any, and a painting of it? How it looks like? How big it is? Yeah. Now, the next thing is, isn't it nothingness? No. Yeah. Is it? It's a label, you're making label to be real. I won't tell you where the Buddhist comes from, what they have. Well, I don't particularly care what the official Advaita or Buddhist thing is.

The thing is, the thing is with the Buddhism then. That is unfindable. That anything at all is completely unfindable. Yes, thank you. No attempt to ignore it. I just want to get something really clear. So, just so everyone's clear, whenever I'm asking questions or inquiring about anything, I'm trying to wake up. Not to earn a fucking PhD in waking up. OK? I don't really care, to be honest. I would like to ask Kat a few questions because she is awake. Yep. Do you understand? No, that's true. Right. So, just like Bob is awake and Terry is awake. Well, that's your opinion. Right. Now, it's like 1, 2 and Bob, who is not here, have gone to the moon.

OK? And none of the rest of us have. Right? And we're all talking about going to the moon. Well, I'm one of the ones that hasn't gone to the moon too. Right. So, I would like, if that's OK, sorry, I'll let you just... Shut up and listen. Alright? That's what you've got to learn to do. Listen. I would love to listen. You've got to learn to listen. Kat. You think you've got to go on like that all the time. You've got to listen. Kat. So, what I wanted to ask you was, OK, is that where... It's exactly what you said before, OK, is that where I struggle, right, is in that, and it's like we talked about when I was here sitting with you with Bob, is in that coming and going.

Yeah. At times it feels like... It's like what you say when it comes and the glimpses and the clouds kind of part, and it's like what it feels like, what quote unquote enlightenment or awakening or whatever it would feel like, would be like that all the time. And so, in that kind of letting it go, and what you said, I've reflected in my own experiences spot on, where like when I do kind of give up and like do give up thinking, do give up ideas, it's kind of like it's the only thing that's kind of left is that kind of truth. And it never leaves.

Right. It's the depth of the ocean is always there available. Like, it seems like there is a clarity that comes and goes for me, but really, the clarity is there all the time, the me comes and goes on top of it. Like, it's not that I get the clarity, it's that the clarity gets the I and gets obstructed, obscured by the I, but the clarity is not touched, the space-like awareness is not touched. It's just the cloud passing, and really, it's nothing that can be done about it. It's just, it's just, well, if you can trust in your heart, the depth of the ocean is untouched, and just rest in that trust, like, oh yeah, whatever.

I mean, this is me now that having some little struggle, but you know what, the reality is not touched by it. So we'll see how long it will last. So can I ask you then, when you talk about that trust, I feel like it's very there, that trust is very there, when those clouds are not there. Yeah. And it's kind of, I find it more difficult to be in that place of trust, when kind of the rubber meets the road, and I am suffering, or I do feel separate, or I am, you know. Yeah, that's so natural. As you said, or whatever. Yeah. Or it is noisy, as you said.

So I just wanted to ask you, in that place of it being noisy, do you, or did you find, and maybe I'll ask you that as well, did you find any pointers that you could ground yourself in time and time again, particularly when it is particularly noisy? Well, I used to, for all my life, write myself a little pointers that would remind me, and read through those pointers, have the checklists. But it was all the activity of the me, doing it, trying to get back to the point where there is a trust. The only thing that can really happen is the waking up is recognizing, and if the recognizing is unavailable, well, it's nothing you can do.

So really, it's just, whenever you are in a place of doubt, or place of distrust, or whatever, you can just see, okay, because everything is changing, and you know everything is changing. You know that you can't hold on to one thought, or even one scene, or one smell, or whatever, everything is changing. You can just basically ask yourself, okay, see how long this is going to last. Is it going to be five minutes? Is it going to be an hour? Is it going to be three days? And with the curiosity, because if you want it to go, if you want it to stop right away, you're already resisting it.

You're already keeping it there for longer. But if you have curiosity, okay, there is this mental noise going on now, there is this strong resistance going on, the suffering is going on. And, well, that's interesting. Oh, that's interesting. I wonder how long it is going to last. Not to make it go away faster, but just to learn about it. Like, oh, let's see, how does it actually feel? How is it like? How does it feel in the body? Like, I remember, it usually, it would clog me, like I would have lump in the throat, I would have the, you know, the guts would be just twisting.

The body would be all tense. The suffering would tense the body. The breathing would be changed. And also the mental images would be all present. Very often about dreadful future or about things getting worse. So if that suffering comes up, if you could actually find impersonal curiosity about it and just watch it as if it wasn't yours. Just see like, oh, gosh, look at the breathing. Oh, wow. Look at the thoughts. Look at the mental images. Interesting. Because what we try to do, we always try to push it away. We always try to stop it. Like, I can't take it anymore. Like, how to distract myself from it?

I suppose in a lot of ways I would ask you then, because I have a lot of, for lack of better words, appreciation for what Tony is talking about when he's referring to the different pointers from different traditions and things like that. So in a lot of ways I can respect a lot of what he's saying. I suppose where I struggle in my own kind of quote-unquote development or path or whatever is the notion that the Buddha talks about, you know, it being the end of suffering and it being talked about as this place of eternal bliss and rest and joy and whatever. And it's kind of like, I always take my own suffering as a sign that I am not there or it hasn't happened or I'm still asleep or there is still an I or there is still a self.

You see? So in a lot of ways I can understand and there's a lot of value in what Tony is saying. I suppose where I struggle is in that kind of duality of being asleep and awake and if I am suffering that means I can't be awake because like the scriptures might say or, you know, as Tony perhaps had alluded to or whatever, that in that vein that if I am suffering I cannot be awake. Fair enough. But see, you are still that. You are not the one who is suffering. The one who is suffering is the fictitious entity, is the person. And this is precisely the suffering happens because that sky-like awareness or emptiness, cognizing is identified with that little person, fictitious person.

So you are not the one who is suffering. You are the one who is knowing about it. It feels very personal because that's, that's how the game is constructed. It feels like, no, no, there is I, there is me and I am suffering and I want it to stop. But really, this is the Maya. What you are, you are the ocean, not the wave. For a moment, it's like, you know, it's like you are playing the role. You are the Oscar actor believing yourself to be max and to be suffering and you're just so well doing what your job is that you should get an Oscar because you're the best actor in the world.

You forgot, you forgot you're acting. You forgot you're playing. You're pretending to be a wave. You pretend to be a separate one and you pretend to suffer. Of course, when you are in the midst of pain, this is not helpful at all to say that, ah, you're just pretending because you're not. It feels, it feels real. It is real because it's believed. The belief makes it real. But what you are is not changing at all. You are still the awareness of the suffering. That awareness is seemingly identified with the, with the wave. But it's only seemingly so. And you know that it's not going to last.

It's not going to be identified forever. It's only temporarily so. So if you see how long it's going to last, how long that identification is going to take before it changes or dissolves, you will just look from the perspective of, of curious knower, of investigator, of someone who is curious about that, that, that identified bit of, uh, you know, the, the non-conceptual awareness identified with the conceptual image. Because the I, the I, the me is a conceptual image. The attention flew into it. And I, and it's seemingly, it feels like, oh yeah, this is what I am. But, I mean, even, even, even for you, like I've watched you suffer a lot throughout our lives together.

And ever since you've had your, whatever it is, like, it's like all gone. yeah and like it's like there's like this there's this egoic sense that's kind of like i want that thing whatever that is yeah yeah yeah we're still living within a human form so things will still happen absolutely absolutely the short answer to your question really really short answer to your question is acceptance whatever whatever it is that's arising whatever it is that's coming out if you don't accept it then you're in resistance around it and you're going to keep it alive that's the really short answer except okay which is what cat was alluding to okay this is going on all right and you can either see it as objective or you can see it as a subjective experience yeah that will pass as things do everything passes nothing stays exactly the same yeah so it's all transient everything moves it's okay this is what's going on and just breathe with it sit with it okay as though as though this is exactly what you want to happen no resistance around this this is what i chose to happen this is what i chose to be happening it's okay just acceptance yeah without getting all you know involved and actually being descriptive being curious about the resistance that comes with it helps to actually monitor the resistance because if there is suffering going on there is a persistent thought or there is a pain or whatever whatever whatever it is and the idea comes i don't want it i want it to stop i want it to end this is wrong that shouldn't be this way so this very this very notion that that very notion of resistance that i don't want it this is wrong this is quite interesting because once you look once you look at it at this very resistance where are you looking from you're already looking from the point of relaxation if you are aware of the resistance to suffering you're already beyond that resistance you're knowing of it and i'll put a buddhist perspective i like to think because it's very helpful and a lot of these tools the buddhist stuff is is generally only a tool there's no ultimate thing it's generally just a method to help us out of suffering and um in the uh the emptiness is a is a fundamental thing to seal everything with so as soon as a suffering which we will experience or go through it we think emptiness and if you try and find that suffering you can't find anything in the buddhist there everything's unfindable you can't find suffering you look and search where is it is it here you know and if you if you try and find a a table what is the table the legs are top of the way everything's unfindable and that's all you start to come up and you you start to realize it's you can't find the suffering even though we even though we're experiencing um and so on and um and there's another thing like in this in this in in the scene just what we're seeing only the scene um there's no seer lurking behind it now in the hearing only the hearing there's no hero in the suffering only the suffering but there's no sufferer and but we attribute that that suffering has got to apply to us suffering and we introduce who is the knower of that knowing or the not knowing of the suffering yes yes um like i mean it doesn't exist but there's no noah yeah there's no noah but we are living as though there is a sufferer you know as there is a seer look it takes it damn difficult to know that was very helpful yeah it's very good yeah yeah i mean do i really understand that's about all but i know it but i'm reading it from those so i know yeah but you're staying with it it will take you all the way yeah yeah but what we're saying about the brahman and the absolute sake has been um something yeah but isn't it it's unknowable so it's nothing like so it's just a way of the know what we're doing we're attributing and we're talking as though there is something easier to understand it's overwhelming and so compelling that there's an eye here that's talking and looking and seeing we're sure we're absolutely certain there's a self when you you know when you say what is it so it's a self the skin now it's something you know it's just a word it's a word and all you come up with it's unfindable that's that's that's as far as you go and everything's unfindable so and that's why i know the the see i know that what is behind though i don't want to get into it but behind the advaika is there is a truly existing raman one without a second a substratum the eternal witness or something or other and that's where the the buddhism and the and the you know advaika and so on part of ways because in buddhism there is no they don't have positive any true existence of anything then now it's not that i know you you're not you're saying no thing but we're attributing a no thing we're attributing a beingness and beingness means existence yeah that's the language so you never use the word beings in buddhism that's never used you know yeah yeah that's existence and so on which which words you use instead in buddhism you don't use you're unfindable you know unfindable yeah because you know you don't have to come up with a term for an ultimate reality because there isn't one and so all there is is just conventional you know there's only the conventional there's only the scene there's only the suffering you know but you know there you you don't say there is no suffering you know so there is appearances and there are experiences of suffering there are appearances of objects and phenomena and people and so on and um but but you know but see when you say they are experiences there is experiencing yes is the same word as existence that's why you see bob is not teaching anyone that there is a brahman saying there is experience or there is existence the very isness of it is just the limitation of the language you can't say there isn't an experience or the experiences don't exist so exactly so you don't you don't you don't deny existence of experiences if you don't deny existence of experiences how can you deny existence see see in the buddhism you have this they call the two truths you have conventional reality our everyday reality and ultimate reality and ultimate reality and ultimate reality is the emptiness of the relative of our everyday existence that's the ultimate when we ultimately realize that our suffering is empty yeah that's ultimate reality there's no relating yes it's beautiful learning yeah it's good relating can take place conventionally everything's everything in here is just words are convention and they're not to be put down or that words are and that's how we use words we don't associate from anything so the conventional you know but you see the the admiral one thing and it gets away from the concepts and that oh that's all concept concepts and so on and and you've got to get to the one without the second um and and where there's no concepts or the silence or the stillness yeah that's and that's all just attributed made up to that's a verification if you really want to know what is an objective reality or objective truth it has to be true even without thinking so that's why you actually see what's real even without thinking because if reality relies on thinking well sorry thank you for that reality it's very unreliable but when it's real even if you don't think that's what you can really consider as the reality and it doesn't exist it is empty absolutely it's empty but see it's not dissociating from thoughts and concepts it's basically verifying the reality thinking is empty yes and not thinking is empty doesn't doesn't mean so don't think that not thinking or stillness is superior it's not it's not it's not no no no no no and thank you for thank you for highlighting it because absolutely there is none of the teachings of bob or or myself or whoever speaks about it to say that thinking is there is anything wrong of thinking thinking is absolutely wonderful it's nothing it doesn't mean that it makes it so yeah it makes it good or bad right or wrong it makes it everything the thinking makes the whole maya no it doesn't yes it does we label down to one thing that's thinking that doesn't know you have we scrutinized to have a look at other things there there are things that are beyond thinking that that we haven't looked at yet that's why we stop thinking to look beyond thinking that's what it is all about to actually see what's beyond thinking how can you use the thought to go beyond thought you're coming from a from a i'm not buying it you know it's coming because i i don't need to convince you i don't really have any agenda to convince you like you know you stay with whatever because life is taking you where you need to be and it's good it's doing a good job so you're doing all right yeah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter arguments and yeah you know you can have your so i'm not convincing you about anything but it's just because you say that there is some dissonance without with or within or without thinking i'm telling you why the thinking is shown as an example i mean all those things are just attributed you know life is taking you where you need to be all that sort of thing it's just made up that's thought of course it's a thought sorry but that's that's that's as close as you can get if you want to be descriptive of what is going on in the maya you know how well how else you describe what is going on like you take a glass of water and you drink you say yes this is duality glass drinking sometimes you said there's not a void and then leaves it at that that's about as far as i went there's not a void oh i'll take that i won't say any more than that i can't think there's anything more than something's going down in all of it you know all of whatever something's going down that's all our way beyond that i know nothing no thing well when you when we sort of deny this this relative this the conventional reality then we go into denial isn't it i'm not denying i'm just saying then you're describing you're grounding you're labeling you know but that's like who's walking down the street what tree and all that sort of no that's going stupid isn't it yeah yeah i know isn't the old story you know there's a mountain then there's no mountain then there's a mountain again but when you're going along you lose sight of what the reality is you come back to what the buddhism thing it doesn't deny the person walking down the street but it does refute that that person is has inherent existence is real that there is a real inherent person you know or thing there well what where what does buddhism think about that everything's just an appearance what like everything me included is really uh manifestation no it's not it's uh it's it's a construction that's made up it's a rising it is completely you can't deny it and see that gets away with nihilism if you if you say there's nothing here you know what i mean well that's stupid and then you're for nihilism that's why you see what they they say at the same time a thing a a thing arises or appears it's a dog like a dog or a cat now it appears so you can't say there's nothing there and and you know you can experience the dog itself but you but that appearance when you scrutinize it and try to find something that matches that label dog nothing can be found so it's both it's it's it's if you want to say it's appearing and and empty at the same time sort of you know in that sense so but that that's what the buddhism it zooms in on inherent existence and the normal person is absolutely swears black and blue that that tree is real it's solid and has has you know exists you know and the buddhist just attacks that inherent existence it doesn't attack the the conventional tree the conventional tree is is allowed to be it's it's appearing and arising so it it's it's very smart and it's only a method they call it a raft nothing more than a raft just to help and all this gets us out of suffering because suffering is what the human time that's what we're all um you know caught up in and it's the thing that's the thing that's what's addressed and see everything buddhism advaita science medicine this is all part of the of the whole manifestation buddhism is not more real than advaita than medicine than physics or mathematics this is part of the way it expresses it appears it dances it plays out it's absolutely absolutely absolutely there's no inherent buddha there's no inherent person who is completely enlightened you know um you know that they don't exist no no that's just play that's all dance um this is it's unfindable um and i'll tell you what when you do when you you know when you do sort of reach that you you are in line all right so you're talking we're all in the group yeah yeah i'll ask katarina the question on that and be very careful yeah now you you have spoken i told you about beingness yeah awareness and and that and so on now can you give me your experience of that what and it's okay to use words don't say you can't use words of course you can go to your experience that's all we've got we've only got the conventional and words of the conventional yeah now can you can you tell me yeah and you know what i because i can tell you my experience but i i'm asking you yeah you you tell me what your experience of that you you you indicated did you tell us that my experience of what of that or that beingness that awareness that's you yet that's been spoken of um right throughout the night just give me your experience you're asking me about the description of my experience i'm just asking you your experience of the venus and fact i am that i'm already that never left that and so on of that can you tell me what your experience yeah well you know what the experience is completely transparent the experience thing is transparent there is a content showing up in the experience breathing is happening there's nothing wrong with experience i know i i don't say there is anything wrong but see the pure awareness of presence of pure being is pre-sense it doesn't contain the senses it is the screen that is invisible completely untouchable and the undetectable screen on which the sensory experiences are happening so it isn't something that you can grasp it isn't something that i can tell you that it exists and i know of it because it isn't separate from me to actually be aware of it you see you've got untouched and so on and and it's it's you've got there's something there anyway i won't i won't i won't hone you not but it's untraceable it'll be the fundamental undetectable behind it all so i can't tell you if it is or it isn't if it's undetectable how can i tell you if it is or it isn't yeah yeah then you missed you missed the answer sorry can you ask the question can you ask the question yes fine that's good i totally don't know yeah i really don't yeah i don't yeah i could give a description but just the description seems empty the description just says what's your answer well i only know a smidgen but it it'll basically be which you can experience an absence of anything inherent you know um um and and and with that see what we do we keep attributing inherent existence some reality to everything to suffering to trees to objects to whatever you know and there there is there is in letting go of attributing reality to even an ultimate it when it's like something and there's and there's now an absence of attributing and there's an absence and and it suffering does begin to depart because basically all there is it's ignorance ignorant or all there is to put it simply there's either there's just ignorance uh of our nature now not not you know not you can say what that is i'm just using that word there's either ignorance now what is ignorance ignorance attributes reality and substance to things and gives them uh gives them ultimate meaning or inherent meaning and that causes suffering and even attributing ultimate reality or inherent reality to a drama or ultimate existence it will cause suffering that is ignorance and all there and and all then there is cessation of ignorance and that that will just be bit by bit and cessation of ignorance is where we no longer start attributing inherent existence to things but i'll tell you what to nice to to pick out that inherent existence to have the discernment to pick that out that will take some fair doing that phrase set me right there actually for a moment that phrase set me right there it just worked for me yeah nice yeah it comes in very quickly but yeah and then you're rabbiting it on about what everybody does wrong i mean look it is in complete kind it's complete contradiction to the advaita message total absurd they don't there is not one similarity at all and it's because it's because of that is that the the you know the hindus advaitas attribute inherent reality to something that's how you understand the teaching this is not what the teaching says this is how you read them how you understand them how you don't