Sailor Bob's Non Duality Meeting with Kat

It's just a terminology. But it's much nicer to have what they give you here than if you have a full anesthetic because that would knock you out too. You're sick. You're ready? Yep, you're ready. I guess everyone knows everyone, but we can still traditionally start with the names. Neil, Cole. Tony. Tony. Sarah. Justin. Rachel. Yeah, thank you again for coming. Bob was really, really... He will be very appreciative for the support because it was really... It meant a lot for him that I will keep the door open and I will do it. So, yeah, thank you. Well, then I will start from what he is saying to everyone because that's the only game in the town.

So, you're already that. You are. Whether you know it or whether you experience or whether you understand it intellectually, conceptually or whatever way, that's the only fact. Because he starts to spill with, I'm not speaking to bodies here. I'm not speaking to minds. I'm speaking to that which knows what it is. Like, I'm not speaking to the waves. I'm speaking to the ocean, to all the depth. And that very depth, like there is no one here who is not alive. That very depth is the aliveness of being. So it is actually resonating. The very life essence that is animating us. The life essence that is replacing cells in the body and beating the heart.

That is the very essence that is to wake up. Because the person can't wake up. And this is the core of whatever the mind can ever grasp. That mind or the person, the conceptual image is that wave, is that surface. It can never, ever, ever get it. Because it is just a minute appearance. That's why he also says, I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking to any mind. Because there isn't anybody here. There isn't anyone who is speaking to any other one. Because there is only one. And now the way he's actually demonstrating, what does he mean there is only one. And he takes us on a beautiful journey around different old traditions.

To actually point out how that message has been around forever. For millennia. How it's been around in Hinduism. When it is called Advaita. One without the other. Like, that closes it down. There is no other. If we dream that there is anything other than that one. Well, that's just a dream. It doesn't matter. Now when he says, Satchitananda is the reality. Nama Rupa is the dream. Satchitananda being, consciousness, bliss. Nama Rupa name and form. So, who is not being here? We are actually communicating with that sense of being, sense of presence. Who is not conscious of being. Who is not conscious of this being. We are, and we know that we are.

And happy to be, or bliss, or stillness of being, that emerges fully when the very being gets the light of attention, or torchlight, like Tony calls it. When that awareness of being. When that awareness of being is not distracted or disturbed by any content, the bliss of being, or the love of being, or that stillness, or peace that has it all understanding, it actually surfaces. And Nama Rupa are distractions. The names and forms are distractions. Things that we call important. Like, what's really important. If we realize that that fact of our being, and knowing of that being, and bliss of being, is the only reality.

reality. And our spouses, children, careers, monies, houses, are not a reality. They may feel real, because that's the intelligence, that's what it does. But they're not a reality. They're not important. It's literally not important whether I am rich or poor, or whether I have relationships, or I don't, or I have enemies, or I have money, or I don't. It doesn't matter. That's the content of the dream. What really matters, what really matters, and this is what is the prerequisite for the recognition, to actually give that, give the importance, earnestness, or put all the heart on that which is real, not on that which is fake, false, unreal.

So if our heart is with that sense of being, with that buzzing energy, buzzing life, then soon we recognize that the same buzzing life is actually one animating everything. It's the same buzzing life buzzing through the flowers, and through the incense, and through the cats running around the room. So this is about Hinduism. So this is about Hinduism. Ah, there's one more in Hinduism. He likes to use Mahavekya, the great mantra. I am that. I am already that. So that, he says, is two ways he's using language. Language is the key. Because language is actually what conditioned us away from that pure sense of presence, pure loving to be.

We started, as children, we started learning words, and then focus attention exclusively to what we actually deselect out of the flow of life. Because as the baby, or some drugs do it also, we have that sense of being, and the flow of sensations. There will be different sensations which the baby can't even distinguish from, darling. So baby cannot differentiate between any sensations because it doesn't know words. It doesn't know what's the physical sensation or hearing or seeing or tasting. It's just one flow of different colors, almost like a hallucinogenic trip, out of which we learned to deselect, distinguish certain parts. And then slowly things get labeled.

And when there is enough words, enough labels, then those are all mental representation. Then we kind of start navigating between them and naturally label ourselves and identify with the limited form. So this is how the Mahavekya gets lost. So Bob comes back to the language and when he says, I am that, this is that, you are that, the carpet is that, the wall is that, the curtain is that. What is the that? The that is basically nothing, it's just a pointer. We call everything that. The other way he uses it, he says, this is being a cat, this is being a chair, this is being a flower.

So everything has the being. Everything is that and it has the being. In Christianity, it is presented in a way where they say omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, which basically is the same as Satchitananda is only slightly different words because omnipresence, it means total presence. It means total presence, my presence and the presence of all the Maya, of everything that is in the appearance is present. So nothing is excluded. Everything is that one presence showing up in a different way, but it's just one presence. Omnipotence is total power. And when Bob is talking about the power that is moving the galaxies that is forming the moving the currents and the seasons and moving cells and creating everything, creating art, that's the same power.

And that's the omnipotence. And that's the omnipotence. So it isn't, again, it isn't selected or distinguished between, oh, this is my limited power, your limited power. No, this is absolutely total, showing up in different points in consciousness. And omniscience. And omniscience, total wisdom or total knowledge or total understanding or total full knowing, knowing, like we have in Satchitananda, being, knowing, loving to be. So omniscience would be knowing. Omnipresence would be being or sap and loving to be is, well, it's loving to act, it's loving, it's basically loving. Loving. Anyway, what is, um, another way Bob is pointing. If the cut is distracting you, I'll just.

I'm not distracting me. No, no, no. My eyes shift, but I'm not distracting. No, no, that's, that's alright, because. That's what your eyes do. He's just loving to be. He is loving to be. I'll just show Julia. Aww. Aww. Yes, so, uh, we are already done. Now, what stands in the way and obscures it? In different religions. He's also going to other religions. He's going, going to Judaism and, uh, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's many words. I won't be just, you, you, you all know it by heart. So what is, uh, what is obscuring it or, or obstructing it? So I am that, I am that depth, that ocean, that being, or that loving to be, knowing that I am.

And now the idea comes up in the body of a, of a young child that everything is formed and emptiness doesn't exist. This is where the, the being shifts out from that gut instinct of being and that heart instinct of loving to the head. And now, in the thinking, of course, the object, space is invisible. Silence, I can't hear it. They don't exist. They, they're not real. They're not even there. So how the, the whole appearance is flipped 180 degrees. Objective reality, nothingness, emptiness, cognizing emptiness, being, knowing, loving to be. That's, that's the reality. Namarupa name informs the fiction. And now, as the child learns labels and starts deselecting things out of the appearance and getting them labeled, getting themselves labeled and starting to relate to themselves.

Like, oh, okay, this is me. This is, I am this body. I am this mind. And those are my preferences. I like this. I don't like that. And now, the resistance comes in the picture. And now, the story gets bigger and better. Now, of course, I want to get more of what I like. And I want to push away what I don't like because this is important. Now, being, consciousness, bliss, lost its importance. Space? Who cares? Can't even see it. Can't grasp it. Can't grab it. Boring. Doesn't matter. Silence? Whatever. Tell me something. Give me the story. Give me the food for the mind. I'm not living anymore in the gut instinct of being.

And I'm not living anymore in the loving to be, in the heart of the essence. Now, I'm in the head. And in the head, things that are related to me gain importance. So now, because everything is so important, I've got to get it. I've got to have it. I've got to maintain it. I've got to make sure I have full supply of pleasure all the time. Things I like. And that goes ballistic. That goes bananas. Because equal amount of pleasure is not enough. The next time, I want more pleasure. So I will go into the addictions. I want more excitement. So I will go into the whatever, party, changing houses, partners.

Eventually, it comes up to the point where us and ego, you start taking advantage of others. Because the level of excitement and the level of pleasure cannot be high. It has to grow. It has to be more all the time. So the madness of today's world starts this way. Just shifting out of the being and love to the head. Well, and then how to get back from it? Again, there's nobody to do it. There's nobody to get up. The recognition may only happen from that level of the depth of the ocean. That's why Bob is not talking to bodies and to the minds. The resonance is actually offered to that depth of being, to that loving to being, to that knowing of being, presence awareness.

Yeah, when he speaks about Buddhism, it is given there in Buddhism, in six words, ever fresh, non-conceptual, ever fresh, presence awareness. The six words. And nothing else. Just this, nothing else. So that presence awareness, that is what we are. That is what everything is. And there is absolutely nothing else. If there are things that seemingly are, they don't. This is only when the labeling starts. This is the dreaming. This is the hypnosis. So actually savoring that being, savoring that gaps in the mind, that silence, gaps between the thoughts, the space between the object, recognizing the appearance, the objects and thoughts and feelings and emotions as the obscuration in that space.

So this is where we go back to the heart of the essence because love of being is not love of having. It's not love of accumulating, adding, amassing and making importance of things. Whatever I make. Whatever I make important, I'm slave of. If I make it important to have the promotion or have a good car or whatever, the mental obsessions go on and builds up on it. If I make it important. If I make importance and a desire of any desire, really, this is where I'm just leaving that depth, that stillness, that beautiful silence of being. I'm going to the surface, going to the content, going to the content.

This is where the love is lost because it is kind of changed to something conditional. Like, yeah, okay, I'll be a good person so people will recognize me. I'm being an attention junkie. I want something from others. I want people to like me. I want people to love me. Because in myself, unless I'm back in the totality, unless I'm back with the oneness and I am the world, I'm going to feel inferior. I'm going to feel not good enough, insecure. I'm going to need that recognition. I'm going to need that attention, love from others. I'm going to trade for it. I'm going to go and do people pleasing, tell people compliments so they can like me, so we can trade a little bit.

Because I'm incomplete and you're incomplete. So now, okay, I pat your back, you pat my back and we will have a little bit of a, a little bit of a relief from that constant sense of contraction. What a crazy way to be. I've been like this most of my life. It's, it's unthinkable. What a crazy, crazy way to be. But that's, that's how the whole appearance is designed. It is designed the way so it goes to contraction. It goes, this is the will of the absolute because this is what is. The reality of that dream is that the dream character gets identified with the dream body and it feels separate from the dream objects and it feels contracted and it embarks on the search and it's trying to find the completeness.

It's trying, it's feeling like a very, very small, like, you know, it's still shy in front of the president or queen or king, just another body which defecates the same way, the food body or meat body or whatever. But because of the concepts we put on ourselves, that's what happens. And the concepts are usually pretty nasty, pretty tough. So nobody tells us we are wonderful. They tell us to be humble. And religions, they tell us we are sinners. We have primordial sin or any other sins and we have to please gods to get something. So the conditioning is pretty tough and not only by feeling insecure and vulnerable and limited, I will feel that sense of contraction, that painful sense of unworthiness, not, not being good enough, but also, I will be told to be humble.

I will be told to be humble. I will be told to be social. And all that replaces natural instinct because natural instinct, when we look at animals, they don't go for the war unless that instinct of procreation and leaving needs them to expand the territory. They don't take advantage of one another for nothing. Unless the survival, the loving to be is pushing them to do. And people, we have it slightly differently because we're never satisfied with what is. We always need more. We always need more. And we need increasing pleasure, increasing excitement, increasing possession. Like, everything has to grow to have the sense of expansion or to actually just soothe a little bit, just to push down a little bit that primordial sense of emptiness, really.

Because it's, it's a sense of being empty or hollow that we want to medicate with, with food or with relationships or with possessions or with self-importance. This very sense. This is the gate-less gate. This is the invitation. This is the place where it's actually good to start looking because this is what we're running away from. We always try to go to the next moment, to the better place because as it is right now, it's no good. So we try to distract ourselves, go for a party or achieve something. And this, if we, instead of running away from that sense of vulnerability, if we actually stay in that void, this is where the mind, mind can't stand it because this void, this is that emptiness, that emptiness that is boundless, that is everything that is.

And for the mind, emptiness is boring. It doesn't have anything exciting to say. So the mind will run away from thinking, will run away from ideas. And staying in that emptiness, staying in that silence, even for just one second longer than we can. That's the death of the mind. And everybody knows that. It's not only from facing the fear, but we all know that from the moment of of elation, of elation, of elation, from the glimpses of beauty, like, I started working at sea because when I ended up on the bridge of the ship and being exposed to the absolute vastness of the ocean that I had around me, through the whole windows, there was just the blueness of the sea and the blueness of the sky.

And sense of separate me was just, it was so ridiculously small, that me that it would totally explode. Or going to the heli deck and lying down on the, on the deck at night and having that sky open with no lights, no cities, nothing is just, just swallowing you completely. Like, who didn't have the moment of, of joining in absolute beauty, like, or love, like being among people in a way that is spontaneous, that is natural, and it's, and it's just heart opening, and, and it's nothing wrong. Like, Nisargadatta calls it, the moment of, of joining back to the flow of life, that nothing is wrong anymore.

So, who didn't have the moments when nothing was wrong? So, in this moment, there is no ego, there is no relating going on. This is the natural state. Natural state when we just completely relax into what is, and we don't try away from, run away from, from this isness. We don't need to be anywhere else, we don't need to be anywhere else, do anything else, we wouldn't rather be anywhere else, than in this moment as it is. Those were glimpses. But the invitation is, to live the life, moment to moment, day to day, in that sort of harmony with the flow, in the, in complete acceptance that what is right now, as is, is perfect, and I wouldn't be anywhere, ever, for anything.

It's just, as it is, resistance is absent, so the relating is absent, the ego is absent, there is nobody here who wants to run away, who wants to, do something different, be somewhere else. So, this is the, this is the natural state, and we all know it, because, we may experience it daily, daily, the moments when nothing is wrong. This is it, because, the, the way the whole idea of enlightenment is presented, and the way it has been presented to me, years back, and this was, perfect again, because it kept me on the, on the search, when the search was needed. It was the idea of bliss, nirvana, eternal bliss, I'm gonna be in this, absolute pleasure, in the ecstasy, for the rest of my life, I'm never gonna need any other pleasure, because this is what enlightenment is.

because, yeah, yeah, a game, there was me, and there was a pleasure, something to gain, get, and keep, the state in which I was supposed to stay. It's not like this, like, the cats, they're not in ecstasy, they're not pearling, you know. but they're totally happy to be they're totally happy to be they're totally natural in their sense of being there's nothing wrong for them and the way I saw Bob in a hospital a couple of days ago, day after operation when the pain was excruciating we both could hardly handle it and still there was no resistance I could feel like, oh my gosh, I'm going to burst in tears I'm just not going to contain myself but I knew it wasn't really what he needed on top of everything but it was just overwhelming feeling and on top of that, that was oh my gosh, this is intense this is, wow there was no idea that I shouldn't be feeling it I shouldn't be overwhelmed and half crying no, that was what life wanted to experience through this body and there is no mean to argue with life this, every moment as it is is the God's will or is thy will this is, if there is pain included well, welcome what a simple way of being it's really being empty it's just it's just really lending your eyes your ears, your mouth everything to that emptiness to look at itself it looks out of this holes in the body there are so many different holes and it just sees this is what I am what if there were no painkillers?

what if there were no painkillers? who knows? who knows? who cares? we could be yelling our asses and throats out of it both screaming like hell animals do scream they don't have painkillers animals when you have a deer that gets trapped and gets legs smashed it will scream it will apparently screaming brings up some sort of chemicals in the brain some endorphins that kind of help to relieve the pain you know who knows? what if there was dying? what if he didn't make it? what if whatever I mean, you know like who cares? by going to the mind and answering questions what if I'm already living this moment see how I'm going to the conceptual ideas I'm visualizing different scenario and my attention goes to that different scenario in the head rather than being available for that cognizing emptiness to cognize itself so I have the extreme cramps and prude sometimes I can look at it and be really fascinated by the intensity but if I'm a bit tired I have to get up and walk around and other times when I have to be able to you know see it as interesting then it does sort of disappear that that's only a cramp I know I move my leg or get up or go it's something that might go on and all and all and all and all yeah yeah yeah it's like if you look at excuse me at the world from the perspective of that totality that life essence looking at itself from different points in the dream you are also in the bodies of people who are going through their DMT experience through their final dying experience you are in the bodies of people who are going through amazing multi-orgasmic sex right now and you are going through the people who are having a cramp in the leg because this is how the life as totality if you kind of drop down from being a wave from being an individual and having individual experience to being life and just letting life feel whatever it wants to feel and so when you are with you know Bob intense pain you have this you know how would you describe it to you feeling his pain or identifying with how he might feel no no no there is no conceptualizing going on the the thing that you see there is a space then and there is space like awareness or sky like awareness and there is content and the content content of seeing in this in this particular moment because right now is different and that's important it's just for the sake of an example content of seeing is Bob in pain the content of sensing is the this mirror neurons surging through this body and and reflecting you know mirroring his pain I can't feel the physical pain in this body because this is my vehicle it's like you are driving a car you can't feel speeding of the other car but as the total power it is being noticed as the totality so because in this point of consciousness there is only you know like I can't feel your cramps in the leg either I could Nisargadatta was having introducing a little exercise how to do it those are the special powers that you train but why would you even be interested in that I mean you may you may you may train yourself to actually drop and experience a glimpse and I did it for quite a while I did it because it was part of the exercises that I was doing in my non-duality school in India in Tejgyan you know you enter the point of consciousness of the tree and you feel how it is to be branches of the tree and just for a glimpse because being is always the same experience is just a passing event it's just a cloud it's not important experiences are coming and going what is important what is important is where they appear on is the screen experiences are beautiful and they're fascinating and the whole dream is actually appearing in front of our eyes for the beauty of it for the appreciation for the dance of it and ultimately even the bad beats can be beautiful if there is no resistance because resistance is the suffering and this is this is the invitation this resistance coming purely and simply from relating that this is me it shouldn't be happening to me it should be different reality should be different I should be different those ideas they're just thoughts like what what else is it but the thought so this thoughts of resistance this thoughts of arguing with life this thought of being separate and having separate agenda they're just clouds they're just thoughts they're completely unimportant but because throughout life our conditioning taught us to give importance to our thinking to give importance to words to objects to symbols that's why the attention habitually goes to things that are not important so now recognizing it the attention goes back to itself it relaxes like what would happen if or what should be or what would be what I want those are just thoughts there's nothing they can give you they never deliver on their promises the thoughts will promise you oh follow me it's gonna be wonderful it's gonna what a trip I'll show you you know like invite me on the trip of science you know there's gonna be neuro whatever what's gonna be disaster if you're a particular catastrophizer or something there you go yeah and even if there are pleasurable thoughts even if they're daydreaming like you know oh okay let's fantasize that we're having a Julia's with us so house in Hawaii was a Julia wasn't it or being a millionaire having a house in Hawaii so now again I'm living the flow of life and I'm creating a vision completely imaginary imaginary picture of reality that has no reality is dream within the dream like how much better is to drop down to that primary dream because as I'm speaking to you I'm dreaming I'm dreaming to sit here I'm dreaming this room and I'm dreaming you guys I love when I'm dreaming I do what a beautiful dream but it is a dream it's not that okay I've woken up from the individual self or the ego and the dream disappears no it's there it's there it smells it has the texture the dream is there so the dream doesn't disappear and as Nisargadatta says dream is not your problem your problem is that you like one part of it and not the other love all of it or none of it and the rest will be done for you so dream he was dreaming cancer he was dying of it in the dream and dying in a dream is actually waking up to the nothingness that we are because as the as the dying happens well what do I know about that I only had a couple of near death experiences it doesn't matter it doesn't matter but we will find out in a due time time time because the time is mine so we may never find out because in the moment and moment is all there ever is we are I am and that's all we can ever say I am when I can't say I am not when I can't say I am I'm not and it doesn't matter because there is nobody concerned with any of it so it's finding out in future or finding the reality in future or finding enlightenment in future it's never gonna work yeah because it's there all the time it's like it's there is content covering it up there are thoughts and stories covering it up and the biggest story as Bob sometimes says oh after all I am only human that's the story I am only human you know I am limited I am making mistakes like what can you expect you know I am only just poor little me so that's the story going on and covering up that beautiful right awake conscious of itself vastness of screen space like awareness that story but since it's there well just recognize it as a story and enjoy it like who doesn't like a good story it's alright I mean this is the this is the totality this is that sad chicananda omnipresence omnipotence omniscience dreaming that story it is dreaming that dream why because it loves to be so the loving to be as as it is right now what's wrong with that like even yeah I'm gonna go to the hospital right after the meeting of course and I guess Bob is gonna be walking today a little bit more so he's gonna be screaming a little bit more too but this is gonna be loved this is gonna be loved to be it's also just an example because it's not happening right now but examples are sometimes good for the for the heck of pointing like every single pointer is actually what isn't you know the magnificent pointers because I'm so absolutely completely in love with the way Bob's structure to spill because it just shows up everything from every single angle every dimension it shows it up from the perspective of the individual the me that is thinking adding accumulating growing and then trying to get somewhere trying to find someone it's showing it from the perspective of eternity of that message being available all the religions and the traditions it's showing it from the perspective of netty netty like am I really this body like come on what is this body made up of it's made up of subatomic particles or elements or that are completely interconnected with everything like the air I'm breathing in and out is which part of it is my or is me like the the cells in the body they say 3 trillions of cells but like 80 or 90% of it are actually enzymes and parasites stuff that actually don't belong to this community they just they just feed of it like what is everything's interconnected the body is feeding of the food and the food is is coming it's like it's nothing separate really and also where is that body how did it start it never did it never ever did like a year ago or 10 years ago there was no one single cell the same as is now like sperm and ovum that seemingly started the whole thing to grow they're long since gone they don't exist here anymore and then how did they come about the parents were eating food and breathing air and drinking water and that's it doesn't have any beginning or any end and even this pointer is wrong because it assumes time but it's a valid pointer because you

Losing the language, we can't go beyond the duality of language.

It's good to actually see how brilliant the pointers are, but the most important part of it is the frequency. Like when Bob is speaking, it's not as much about the words, it's not about as much of the mental images that he's offering, which are totally, absolutely mind-blowing, but it is about the certainty that he holds as he speaks this. Like the mental images when he brings up the same life essence, it's only one, it's just one life, one essence animating, shaping all the patterns and forms of all the manifestation. This is, everything is that one, is that wave shaped of the water, or is that form shaped of emptiness, or sound vibrating in the silence, the silence vibrating into sounds.

Everything is just one dance, it's all one. Galaxies, cells in the body, expanding, contracting heart. Nobody does it, nobody blows the wind, nobody grows the tree. It is all just happening as it is. And it's magnificent, it's a gorgeous picture, it's a picture that the mind has to rest its skies. Like what can you say? How can you argue with it? Yeah. And there are still words, there are still words, and words have opposites. There are still dualistic words. There is still an assumption when I'm saying it, that there are galaxies. The mental image of galaxies. Can we see any here? No, they're in the head.

But still, how beautiful the point there is, to use the mind to blow the mind. That's why I'm just so much in love with the spiel. And that's thanks to Sabine really, because I used to be doing guru hopping, and always wanting something new, something exciting. And I heard it already a few times, so now I'm going to go for something new. How other people say it a different way. But Sabine gave me, thank you Sabine, gave me a big challenge. She says, stop it. It is about stopping the mind. Don't go and chase the other gurus or other stories. It's everything there, just stay with it.

And then I said, oh no, not this mind, you know, not this mind. I know it. But all their lives, it was just all over the shop. It had 20, 30 pleasurable options. It was always all over the shop, and always about future, and about fun, and stuff. This mind is not going to do it. And there was something behind it that hurt that inner dialogue. Shit. What's important? What's really important? At this point, my level of devotion towards the truth, it was about four years ago, when Sabine gave me that challenge. My level of devotion was almost absolute. I really, above everything else, I wanted to see the truth.

So, what was more important? For the mind to get its pleasure, to get a little bit more of a different resonance, so it would be more fun. It's the same frequency, because there are so many speakers who speak the same truth. But that would be just more fun. And then, that hard calling. You want to keep satisfying your mind? It's never going to happen. Never. So I got Bob's spiel downloaded, the one that Sabine pointed. And I was listening to it, like, twice a day for six weeks on the ship. Just walking around the heli deck, seeing that beautiful vastness, and having the spiel. And it started opening up so much deeper.

Like, I would hear one or two things, and those, they would just speak to me throughout the day. That was almost conditioning. On the beginning, it seems like something, yeah, yeah, whatever. And then it would just grow, and it would just put the roots down. Gorgeous. Yeah, so it is, again, everyone has their own inner guidance. What Sabine did for me was life, doing it for life. There is no Sabine, there is no. It was right and appropriate in this particular pattern. I would never say it to anyone else. Like, I wouldn't tell to people, oh, stop going to other gurus or reading other books.

Who am I? I mean, it's just, what do I know what's best for anyone? It's like, everyone has their inner guide. Like, one of my best friends, she's following some Dzogchen, and she's doing practices, and she met, a half-younger boy, and they're doing it together, and they're unspeakably happy. They're having some path to go, and the teachings are good enough. Why would I tell her that this is or isn't necessary or unnecessary? Who cares? Life is experiencing this through this particular body. Everyone is right where they are, because this is the thy will. This is the God's will. That's right. Be content, no matter what your lot.

Exactly. Yeah. And it's, again, never a person that is going to get it. It doesn't matter what the person does in their dream, what the person thinks they do. Because, again, person doesn't do a thing. It's all life doing is through the filter of the personality. And it's continuing doing it through the filter of personality. Bob didn't lose his personality. He's got the sweetest, most beautiful personality I've ever seen. very, very gentle and very sweet, very caring, like very compassionate. But the personality is very much there. He's got this doubting pattern in him, occasionally it comes up. And he's got irritable at times, occasionally it comes up.

How does the doubting one go through? Well, it's just playing out. Occasionally the doubt would come about intention of some people or whatever. You know, it's just their thinking, their thoughts. Thoughts keep coming up. And, of course, you know, we have so much fun with this. We pull each other out on the bullshit just for fun. And I said, oh, that's an interesting concept, darling. And then we both laugh. Because he knows it's a concept. But, again, who knows? There's nobody there. It's not that, oh, yeah, okay, so I pointed out to Bob that he has the concept. There is no Bob to have concept.

There is just this empty vessel through which life speaks, sees, hear, taste, touch, smell. So if the thought comes up, the thought comes up. If the cloud comes up, the cloud comes up. The thing is, there is no separate entity like an ego that is animated by the belief, by the intention or energy that will hold on or latch on to that thought, that would defend that thought. That would say, no, no, no, I'm right, you're wrong. There is no. So the thoughts, they come and go. Feelings come and go. It literally is the same way as everything else in the appearance. Like, sounds come and go.

Like, the heater here, the sound of the heater, it just comes and go. The drums are passing, it comes and go. Just the same way, like, forms, objects, they come and go. They just, like, there's a screen and stuff just floating over, coming and going on the screen. Thoughts are no different. Feelings are no different. Sensations, pain, pleasure, whatever. But there is no holding on to it. There is no chasing pain or chasing, chasing away pain or chasing pleasure. Or there is no holding on to thinking. Like, really, what's going on here is not important. It feels like it because of the habit that we perpetuated for 10, 20, 40, 50 years.

But it's just a habit. Habit can be broken. And the habit seems this way because that's a great mystery. I have no idea how the consciousness wakes up, where it wakes up, when it wakes up. It's all a mystery. But it kind of seems this way, that when the dropping from the head to the heart happens a little bit, and there is a devotion towards that truth. There is a, we find the sweetness in the silence and in that being, in that, in that vastness of, in the mystery of life. And we don't cover it with thinking, with trying to explain it, trying to understand it.

If that already happens, and it must be obviously happening, because we're here. This is, this is the very hard longing, the desire that brings people to, to listen to this message. So if that one starts growing more of that, of that open, vast feeling, that, that intuiting into that space-like awareness. This is non-conceptual. The, the, the, the less attractive the conceptualizing becomes. The less attractive knowing, okay, I understand it. I get it. I'm, I, yeah, I know how it is. I know how it come. I learned all the spills. I know when the little Johnny becomes growing, da, da, da. It's not about knowing. Everything that is known is in the head.

It's already out of that. I mean, it's nothing ever out of that space. Everything is happening in that space. And it can never ever leave it. What is it, darling? What are you, darling? You got your little toy pussy. Little fish toy. Little fish. Little fish. Little fish. Little fish. Yes, so when, when this sort of affectionate longing for the being, when, when this comes about, the thoughts naturally get less attention. Because it kind of seems like the, there is a brain and it has limited capacity for processing information. So if that capacity is invested in intuiting the non-conceptual awareness, it's not that much left for distracting that vastness with the thinking, or planning, or time, or all of it.

It's, it's really resting in that uncontrived singularity. When, when the, when every effort trying, or working it out, trying to grasp it, understand it, or get it, when this relaxes, it just drops down to this, to the silence. And it just, it, it experiences a sense of relief. That's where, there, that's where it starts opening up. That's where the, Nisargadatta says, understanding is all. But really, the only understanding that is necessary, is that, it is not conceptual understanding. It is not the mind that is understanding it. Understanding is like, oh, oh shit, it's been there all along. It's always been there. Like, there is nothing here, and there is no one here, and has never ever been.

We only believe there is. We only believed there was. But it never was. There never was anyone. It seems like there is a contraction, the sense of contraction, and I am this sense of contraction. But what is the sense of contraction? Isn't that just a sensation somewhere in the solar plexus? That's all it is. There is a screen, space-like awareness, and the contraction, unworthiness. It's nothing else. It's nothing else. It's the content. The knowing of the content, the knowingness, the knowing of the sensation, is what I am. The sensation is an object in awareness. Anything else. Anything else. Like, for me, it was the sense of contraction that was the predominant identification.

After I've understood many, many years ago that I wasn't a body, and I wasn't my personality, and I wasn't my character, and I wasn't my image. But still, that persistent sense of not being enough, not being good enough, that was the last to go. But for many people, the last to go would be the sense of, I know, I understand, I'm getting it. Like, what do you know? I am clear. You're not clear. People are doubting me. Oh, they must be, whatever. Spiritual ego. Extremely dangerous version of the ego. I've got it. Now, I am the enlightened one. Or, you've got it, and you don't.

Like, come on. Come on. Getting it is waking up from the idea of me, who can ever get it. Like, there is no getting it. Because the one who's get it is a phantom. It's a ghost. So, nobody can ever get it. Nobody can ever, ever get it. So, it's interesting, because in actual fact, when we talk about this stuff, often we talk about it as, something that, there's a sort of, it's called the understanding, which implies it's something from the mind. Yes. But actually, it's actually an experience. Yes. You can call it this way too, yeah. It's actually an experience. And you can't actually, you can't actually talk about experiences, you can't convey them.

Yeah. Yeah, understanding is a wrong word. Yeah. But every word is wrong. Equally, word experience, you may be right, it may be a little bit closer to the way. But still, it's a wrong word, because experience is something that comes and goes. And this is something that doesn't come and doesn't go. Yeah, that's right. This doesn't go. Exactly. This doesn't go. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And understanding, it feels like a concept. It feels like something conceptual. Yeah. Yeah. Like when Bob is quoting, I think, Jesus on some ancient scripture about the, you think you can find the peace of mind. Mm-hm. And then he says, the peace is when the mind is not.

And that's why ancient call it, peace that passes all understanding. It means that it's a peace that is beyond the conceptual grasping, is beyond the understanding of the mind. Mm-hm. Yeah. If you are that, how are you going to know what you are? This is impossible to know what you are. What? It means the thing that you are. You have to be outside of yourself and witness that thing. But in this very moment, you're not that thing anymore. You're now the witnessing. Yeah. So it's totally, totally impossible to know what we are. And that's the mystery of it. Like, isn't that the most exquisite, absolutely wonderful thing?

That I will never, ever, ever know what I am. And I don't care. I don't want to know. Like, if I keep seeking and trying to find what I am, I keep separating myself from the what, from the thing that I'm trying to find. Yeah, yeah. That's... That's a real conundrum, that, actually, isn't it? Totally. That's the... It's only the one who wants to know. Yeah. Exactly. That's how impossible that game is. It's not very, very hard to understand. It's not very difficult. It's absolutely impossible. And that's why it's certain. That's the paradoxical saying, of course, Miracles uses. It's impossible, therefore it's certain. It really is.

Yes. That's the only game in the town. Like, he... Hmm? So, I think you've got something I haven't, that it's not... No. It's not, um... It's quite the other way around. Yeah, yeah. It's not that I've got something that you haven't. I don't get something, anymore, that you may still believe you have. That's right. That's how I see it. Exactly. Like that. You may still believe you have the separate sense of sense or the ego. It keeps stopping up and announcing itself, so I sort of realize it's still there. Look at this. Yes. I have, you know, lots of moments where, you know... But when you actually believe that you have something that I don't, use it.

Use it. Use it. This is very, very... This is a beautiful invitation. When you think you still have separate sense of self or the ego, look at it. Look exactly what it is. What it is that you have, that relating to the me. What is it? Does it have any shape? Does it have any texture? Does it have any feeling to it? Yes. And it doesn't make sense most of the time either. I can just see it as a story that I'm reading. Yes. But it can appear to be concrete in that sense. Totally. Totally. And that's where we can be duped, you know. It doesn't actually take much to, like just listening to you.

It doesn't take much for that to actually fall away. Yeah. And yet it feels, at other times, so strong because you're in it, you're looking from that point rather than, you're looking from a separate, believing you're a separate entity and having to find something. Yes. And then also, what also obscures it is the idea that once that sense of separate identity falls, then my looking will change, and that anything will change, that suddenly things will be different, or maybe transparent, or maybe holy, or maybe there will be some light effects showing off. No. Actually, what is looking right now is that life essence looking. It's all right.

It's all right. You are already that life essence fully awake fully capable of recognizing itself. You are the consciousness looking. Looking is just gonna be the same. Sense of presence also knowing that you are is already there fully blown you know that you are. What is there on top may or may not be it may come and go is the sense that ah but I'm not there yet it didn't really happen yet it's not it yet but it is it. it really is if there is an idea oh it is it isn't and it's kind of a little bit kind of tight you know like a tight jacket what is that sense of tightness is just another sensation playing out on the screen so the screen you are already that vastness and you are witnessing the sensation of tightness or the sensation of no no no it's still all about me it's my life so you have there is a screen you are the screen of awareness witnessing the sense of awareness witnessing the sense of tightness the sense of tightness and the thought this is still about me so this is the tightness and the thought is still about me the content you are the knowing you are the know where the witnessing of it so always moment to moment you are always fully already that it's just that content kind of seduces you and make you believe that you are the content yeah yeah it's a bit like being on the roller coaster ride and it's just simply a set of experiences coming and going and there is nothing made of it because you are just on to the next experience yeah and so wherever it is and then always standing outside you are watching the entrance onto the roller coaster oh there is a roller coaster all these assessments are being made oh damn I am not on the roller coaster they look like they are having a lot of fun yeah yeah beautiful and the assessments are also not done by anyone yeah it's just a habit yeah judgments assessments the experience is slightly different you know I'll let them poke I love you baby it's just it is a kind of different experience in a way I mean there are some different aspects to the experience which is content based yes assessment of course but um yeah yeah it's really nothing else it's really nothing it feels like it feels like oh go poof you're sitting in the right place yes now I get it it was supposed to protect the cats of the open door I didn't realize yes it was supposed to protect you guys too this bob's sense of smells going down with the sense of taste his sense of smell dead but mine didn't and that wasn't resistance really really because I I kind of uh resistance recognize in a way of like physical sensation and action thought it doesn't really come with resistance and what was your action thought was it just just a visual oh now that's worse what's lavender so was it even a was it just the action was there a flash of imagery about to do something or the words as well or just just the action took place if there was nobody here would you if there was nobody here would you you know who no I would just crawl under the table and scoop it out and put it into the bucket I I find that would be a little bit rude because smell would increase for a while because I notice a lot you know when I interact with other people you know if I upset them or step on their toe accidentally you know I seem to feel that isn't it great that's beautiful you know you know what this is love like I wouldn't I wouldn't be too happy to upset or offend or hurt anyone like the hurting people inflicting more suffering is the last thing you ever want and then if you knock somebody down and have to go to court if you didn't show remorse it's not even the remorse it's more like compassion like you know who are you hurting you always only hurting yourself when you realize that everything is the face of you you looking at different faces of your own self because that's the only one you can actually look at yourself you've given yourself this body you've given yourself this face of eyes and now everything is that everything is that one and you are that one so that's when this is also a beautiful part when Bob is talking about people receiving the message call it very nihilistic and they believe that oh now if there's no individual there's no point to grow there's no point to help people it's so not the case that's so theoretical conceptual bullshit because when you land in that place of loving compassion and that place of being and wanting naturally to serve yourself because there is no other who would you want to hurt who would you want to upset like it's just absurd well mostly sometimes see this is when Bob explains the ego what the self center or the ego is chasing self gratification all the time and it may kind of go out go out of balance you know with self gratification now on top of it yeah not only I have to have more I have to have more than everybody else I have to compare myself with others and make sure I look better than them because this is about me and I am important so that sense of self importance sense of insecurity to start with and then trying to fix it medicate it this is what make people crazy this is what make people nasty this would make people gossip about one another the lightest one or kill one another or you know this is it's complete it's based on the on the false assumption that there is me and another and that me has to be somehow better than another we probably have gotten into different inns into that experience of it just being the same out there as here like for me it's presents if somebody else gets a present I experience the same delight as if I'm getting it like it's the delight and the fun of what that present is and the enjoyment of how they get to use it I just have no difference whether it's me or them so in a way that's one place I have an inn where it's just an even kind of field in a way that's yeah beautiful example it's nice to have you know and there's no thought of any bound in this to that yeah yeah and that's one kind of why plenty of other classes are very bounded but that's a gorgeous example because you could actually really you could actually see not only like anyone who received the present or who received the promotion and you are happy for someone who is more rich than you you're happy for someone that they are more beautiful than you it's not the comparison completely drops off and I know you didn't mean it I'm just kind of adding the highlight it's like the way I'm happy that Bob is getting better because I love him the way when you get your gift on your birthday I love you when the tree or the cat or the dog gets their feed I love them because they're all this is again this is the face of myself that I'm looking at this is one without the second one without the other for me it's kind of just like an enjoyment arises yes it doesn't matter where it's arising it's just an enjoyment that arises and I get to somehow I enjoy it as much it's yes probably not the same way probably there's an enjoyment it's quite different it doesn't matter but for me it's like yeah that enjoyment's the same I don't know maybe it's just an enjoyment and people enjoying things it's a natural joy yes natural joy arises natural benevolence arises it's another wee aspect of the wow of the university so did you feel that way about Trump when he was loving and enjoying being president I just don't really I don't pay any attention fair enough yeah it's quite handy it's not just in the news but you know it doesn't mean that other feelings won't arise I can have fun like you know my sister and brother-in-law delight in Trump comedies so I gave him some Trump dump toilet paper oh okay yes and that was just a enjoyment too but it's more enjoyment in the present so they get to dump on his face but it's the natural joy is a part of it but as I mentioned before with Bob having different doubts about different people or having irritability because of tiredness those are part of it also and those are not resisted also I'm sorry like my dear friend got hurt and gosh I felt like shit burst of energy I will snatch that guy and punch him in the face and that was wow that was cool that feeling wow it was cool doesn't mean I would be acting out of it doesn't mean I wouldn't who knows just aim and win yeah yeah who knows like this is really not my life anymore so I don't care what life is going to do with it like who cares I mean I will discover moment to moment what this body is going to do what thoughts are going to arise what sounds and what objects I have no idea and I don't care because well preferences may arise too obviously I have a big preference for Bob not to be in pain sure and I love it and I love that I don't have any problem with that and if that preference is not being satisfied I don't have the problem with that either whether whether he will be in pain or he won't be in pain that is going to be just fine and I wish him not to and that's also fine so this is it's like really when he says we are already that he means it 100% whatever thoughts angry thoughts happy thoughts joyful thoughts happy actions angry actions smoking cigarettes like one after another like Nisargadatta drinking alcohol drinking themselves like Alan Watts it's all okay this is all you know this is all like this is not my body anymore whatever life does with it it does life pick up smoking and keep smoking who cares who am I to say no to life and the idea is that oh yes but you know what the enlightened being should have ideal weight it can't be overweight I heard that I heard people saying no Byron Katie hasn't got it because she's fat she's not that fat and she's got it and she isn't she's not there's nobody there to get it but she's gorgeous she's beautiful they're all beautiful people who who are expressing this message and people who are not they're all that they're all beautiful it's like and of course if the patterns of personality will be to argue or to or to run down one another like there's a lot a lot of teachers who just are so preoccupied with saying I know what Silo Bob hasn't got it and Lisa Kern has got it or opposite really?

that's what's important? this message is not about thinking who is who and doing what and saying what these are thoughts these are not important what is important is dropping back to that natural flow of life to just joining that flow and just being available for the life to see itself hear itself experience itself moment to moment and of course it doesn't mean thoughts will not come up they will come up I mean it's just like a loyalty mechanism that are in some patterns you know it's a loyalty mechanism in some patterns to like important to know who has it and who hasn't and who they're far away or some other similar mechanisms and that I would call it anti-loyalty yeah but in other patterns like because I don't have loyalty either way so me it's more just oh so what teaching can we get wherever I am doesn't matter I can really self-help and get these pointers to non-duality we're walking down and getting on the tread so you really think that's all over so loyalty isn't really very strong on my planet just more like disrespect for small lower authority actually is something they'd be nice to disappear out of the pen and Bob's great like that you know the message not the messenger exactly so strong yeah exactly and yes and the fact that he doesn't really run down other people he doesn't sit on the tread and run down Muji or Tony Parsons he doesn't he's just not interested in that because those are concepts ideas those are personal preferences we are not really about that stuff so it's good to hear stories about Bob from you my parent yeah yeah he is a living example and he is just gorgeous I mean I loved these guys because last few years I didn't really do any YouTube any listening or guru hopping because I didn't really feel like it it just didn't happen but before that I heard quite a few different teachers and they were all gorgeous they were all beautiful why do I have to hate them to love one it's not hmm yes that Bob got a bit frustrated on his birthday and everyone was going on and on about his childhood or his you know time and bringing in he says we're here for the message and I totally prepared with him yeah see and this is the point he's got 40 plus years of dropping into like you know if he goes because he doesn't go there is no him but if the thoughts arise they very quickly subside the thoughts are really showing up for only a while and predominantly it's just abiding in that in that silence space and this is this is yeah I actually disagree on that one point with him because he hates the story about himself he hates the story about his awakening because he is assuming that people will expect the same the same exact same story in themselves and this is fair enough because some people do but I do actually like and he is okay with that I like using him as an example because he is living that truth for over 40 years and I live here and I can see it and oh what a beautiful beautiful smooth styling we spend nearly I mean I'm working a little bit but we're spending a lot of time here together in silence we don't because well since two and a half years I didn't ask you one question about non-duality because I don't have questions I mean it doesn't mean that I know everything I know nothing but I'm not interested in finding conceptual answers it's just completely dropped off and of course the questions they just don't arise so I'm kind of wasting his beautiful presence because I could have asked a thousand questions and write down the answers print the books it just doesn't really happen for someone else who was still seeking they probably wouldn't be seeking for too long if they lived with him but for me we are mostly sitting in a silence we hardly ever speak because well I go back from work and he asked me oh how is Nola oh Nola is wishing you all the best for the operation all my clients are actually keeping fingers crossed and all absolutely they never met him but they all love me and they all Nola was actually calling me from month Marta trying to figure out a couple of times because yeah it is it is it is all love it is really all love relationships so yeah but but the life with him to actually see the way I can't be grateful enough because once he walked me through the conceptual image when the last sense of contraction was seen as just a sensation as just a concept and identification broke through from it I actually even saw it outside of myself never seen it again I've never seen it again doesn't mean that the thoughts ideas concepts don't show as you see I'm still capable of speaking and so is he but if I didn't actually move in few months after that happened if I didn't move in with him who knows whenever the I thought comes up like oh what am I going to do tomorrow am I going to go to work an hour earlier and do the shopping that could freak me out oh my gosh I thought and right now it doesn't do me nothing because it's just nothing it's nothing it's a functioning it's a normal natural functioning like I do run the household the shopping has to be done whether it happens like an action thought I didn't think about getting this it just I just found my body going for it actually shopping thoughts they don't really come and place themselves in calendar either unless the neighbour is wanting to take us in a car then we just log it in but even if this type of thinking arises there's absolutely no questioning whether there's anything wrong with anything like there's no doubting that's that's the thing isn't it it's an acceptance actually of what is because it is it's fear yeah like it's just so much less thinking whatever shows up there is no additional layer of thinking covering it up like whatever arises because some things have to be resolved like tax has to be lodged or something that requires some sort of calculation and stuff so it is being done but there is no commentary going on top of it and if it is the commentary oh yeah okay punching keys punching keys whatever and there is really just just functioning like nobody really does it nobody needs to monitor it nobody needs to control it evaluate it worry about it so there is just so much silence we sit home and apart from the clients because this is

This is really in absence of our own personal problems.

The only thing we can actually talk about are problems of other people. Oh, did you get the call from this or that or the other? I won't mention names. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this one called. Okay, how is she? Ah, da-da-da-da-da. Okay, good. Did you tell her this and this and that? Yes, yes, yes, and I told her this and this and that. Oh, good, good. Yeah, did she hear you? Well, she heard part of it, but she will forget in ten minutes. She'll call again tomorrow. Oh, good. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. Apart from that, we just don't really... And if he gets the phone calls because he gets Skype and telephone calls, it's the same thing.

Oh, who was it? Oh, this guy. Oh, did you tell him that? Oh, yes. And did it work? Did it hear? Oh, yes. That's lovely. And then silence. And then silence. We don't meditate. But Bob often sit on this chair and I sit on this chair and we just smile. We just, ah, just lean. And we sit by the kitchen table and have a cup of tea and an hour passes and we just look at each other and smile and no words spoken. It's like, it's freaky. I didn't know I could live like this. Like, three years ago, if somebody would tell me, I'm boring.

No way. I'll run away. It's just so opposite. Like the sweetness of being without running away and distracting ourselves, seeking excitement in thinking and stories, seeking pleasure in that mental noise. It's just a habit. It's just because we didn't know anything else. I didn't know anything else. But once this dropping to the core of the being, the center of the being, like Bob said, when this happens, this acquired taste for that silence and for that peaceful, blissful being, when this starts growing, there's no fantasy that can actually compete with that. There's no imagination, no imaginary vacation or no imaginary recognition from friends or whatever. No imaginary pleasure that could actually compete.

It's just like the other staff's not available. So you just got what you got. Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's not available. No, no. But, you know, since I still remember how it used to be, I find it sweet because now I can relate. If someone call or the other call, I know where they are. I meet them where they are. Exactly. And Bob still remembers that too. It is really, it's good, it's good to, it's good to remember that human part of the experience too. Because he meets people where they are also. Otherwise, he wouldn't have that beautiful, beautiful results that he has. And, yeah, and that's also amazing because having that intimate small groups, speaking to people in one-on-one or going for lunch or really being completely one of us, he completely, like what you mentioned, Tony, dropped off the pedestal of messenger.

Like there is no messenger on the high thrones that is supposed to teach you or give you. And you are that little kind of small trying to reach the height. None of it is, is really, I mean, I understand that may be necessary. You know, if, if someone has so powerful way of pointing that has thousands of people listening, then of course it has to sit a bit higher. What's wrong? This is also functional thing. I had people running down, those who have big retreats because they speak to 300 or 500 or 1,000 people. Good on them. Wonderful. Because this is all about, you know, the message is the same.

It's just the frequency. If someone has this beautiful way of pointing the language that touches people, touches more people, and the same someone happened to be in the right time, in the right place and get the right person to promote them on the TV or radio, that's also me. Why would I be jealous about them? This is again the same. I am looking at my own face in the different people. Good on them. Good on those who are there, find themselves there. What a beautiful play. You would rather see that than the FBI murder series, which is basically what you get to see. You would rather see someone on the TV, you know, doing non-duality the mess murder series.

But you two. The problem is the mind is not interested in, most people's minds are not interested in non-duality. To them it's nothing. Like for 40 years I didn't even know I was a seeker. And then I realised, oh, I'm a seeker, I better go and do something about that. But that's the thing, most people outside just don't, they've got, they don't even know about it. How did you realise you were a seeker then? Through Buddhism, I noticed that there was a, Buddha was teaching a path, and I kept coming across medication, meditation teachers. Meditation? Yeah, medication. Meditation teachers that kept talking about enlightenment and I actually thought it was just rubbish.

Like there's all, I'm very, I was always very adverse to religion. And I think it's, a lot of it's made up. And then I just, it dawned on me that this enlightenment thing is actually a real phenomenon, whatever it is. Yeah, it is nothing. And then, yeah, so I actually married a Buddhist. Beautiful. Because I thought my life was heading in that direction, but just in the last two, three years, I've sort of peeled off the Buddhism to go to non-duality because I think it's more, there's no dogma attached to it. It's straight to the, straight to the root of the problem. Yeah. Whereas, with the tradition, you tend to get a lot of bells and whistles.

Yeah. So a lot of stuff is sort of... Which is great for some people who like that, think that. It is, yeah. But it's, I think, more distracting too, because people think, it's like, say, Buddhism, you're actually getting a lot of Asian culture in Buddhism as well, which is actually not possibly what the Buddha was teaching. Yeah. But, yeah, so, yeah, that's kind of a certain form. Actually, meditation is a form of medication. I heard it from my first Zen teacher, a Polish guy who was beautiful. And he was saying it, that you can actually medicate your mind if it's restless. And, yeah, it works for people.

I mean, everyone has their own guidance. It worked for me, it worked for both, but it doesn't mean that it's a necessary step, because there are people who didn't learn that. And now I dropped meditating for like four, five years, three, or three years ago, four years ago. And now I'm just sitting in silence, which... Is that like a meditating stage? Yeah, it is. Yeah. So... But in the meditation there was a lot of trying. You know, when I used to meditate there was a lot of trying. I think I have everyone. Yeah? So I'll just sit in a circle. So I was trying to be still, trying to be silent, trying to be empty for the, you know, for something to come out.

Trying to see the gaps between the toes, trying to push the toes away. So there was a lot of effort. And at that point it was totally necessary for that entity or that person to actually exhaust itself. Because there was so much devotion. I so much wanted to see through that I would do absolutely anything and everything for it. And having something to do like formal meditation was actually a good, was something that was appropriate. So you had the ability to focus and hone in. I feel as though my concentration span is really short. So, you know, so I'm getting old. I'm still not there.

You are there. If I am there. You are there. You're not the content. You're the awareness. You are the awareness. Whatever is the content of awareness is not who you are. So you are awareness and short form of attention. Yeah. And things that say apply to those who are reading might apply to this. Things that apply to like different reading might apply to this. You know, in terms of short attention. Yeah. Because they call it tzachitananda. Be, knowing, loving to be. Or be, consciousness, bliss. Be, awareness of being, bliss. So the awareness is always there. It's never a skill. Like, are you unaware? You're not unaware.

Are you unconscious? You're not unconscious. So you are already that. It's consciousness. The content may be a little bit destructive. But you still already are that. You can't be anything else because it's only one. Like, if there is one, how could you be outside of it? How could you be anything else than it? Yeah. And then, as it maps, the young person who is so intense. You know, I feel his intensity. He might get whatever it is really soon. You know, that's how I sort of see that as being right. Beautiful story you have about him. But he will never get it at all because he has to disappear.

Yes. Right. Yeah. So he's got already a lot of moments of realization of no self. But when the I is there and is so earnest and wants to get it, it's not going to happen. Whereas I'm much more relaxed. Yes. I can get the thought that I made and never get it even though I've got it. Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. The I can get it. The fact. The I, the mind can hear it and can comprehend it. That realization is beyond the thinking, beyond that sort of a level of the head center. Yeah. Because the head center appears in the being. Thinking appears in the being.

Not the other way around. It's like the tortoise and the hare. They're both animals and they both finish the race. Yeah. I think the mind always overlooks the obvious. Yes. And if you, I've read Bob's first book three times. It's only the third time through. The name of the first chapter is, The Answer Is Not In The Mind. And I've just looked over that and then, yeah, okay, whatever. You've gone to chapter two. Yes. There's actually stuff and, yeah. That means thinking is always trying to get the answer. Yeah. If you drop the thinking, that's the answer. Yes. Yes. You know, as I read a phrase like that, before I even came across non-duality, it's a guy, it's quite, I'm afraid I realized now he was an awakening guy, but I read that thing, and I'm like, oh my God, the ultimate puzzle.

That's so cool. The mind can't get it. And so after that, there was always a check-in against experience thing, whenever this came up. So all the time, it's just a check-in against experience thing. Which is why I struggle a bit here sometimes, because all these hang-ups about, I'm expected to be nodding and listening and hearing what they're saying, especially when they look at me. And I'm not. I'm checking in on the experience. Sometimes I have to shut my eyes, and then, oh, the thing comes to sleep. You know, all this sort of, and it's just interesting now, or interesting at times when the little distractions are the interesting part, and I'm just not often the distraction for the chance, you know.

I'm actually seeing distractions come and go, just, you know, small level. And that's more fun, because then you're in the fun fear. You're more likely to be on the ride, you know. And, but because of that, I never felt like a seeker. You know, just never, that never left. You know, I never tried to work it out with the mind. I tried to work out other parts of my life totally with the mind. What I found is when I, like, I listen to Bob's CDs when I drive to work, and I drove about four years to work. And when I actually try and read his book or listen, but I'm putting my full attention on it, I think the mind filters a lot of that.

It just wants to pick out stuff that I think is interesting. But when I'm driving a car, and I feel my mind's focused on driving, I have these wow experiences. Wow! I've heard this CD three times. I've never noticed that's what that means. And you get it, like, on a gut level. Yeah. It's amazing because the way we actually, we are accustomed to listening is we are expected to have the comment or answer. So when somebody speaks, we already prepare what to say, how to respond to it. And that's really not listening at all. That's the thing, we're listening to our mind, we're not listening to our voices.

Yeah. I'm not doing anything. But it comes through sometimes, you know. Sometimes it comes through quite sharp and quite clearly. And sometimes just a word came through and it pops up the next day about five times, you know. Yeah. I heard someone was giving the example, if you would listen to those teachings with same intensity as someone who is drowned under the water, is craving for the breath, you'd hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because this is really, what's important? What's important? I love so much it is. I mean, if you have the snail journey or tortoise journey, the relaxation that we kind of have, because we're not expecting it to be like the year.

Yeah. It's full of pointers. The whole world is just full of pointers the whole time. There's no room for an extra special one to turn up and be the thing, you know. There's no point. They're just always there. They're always turning up. Always witnessing them, you know. Yes. There's no need for anything other. Everything's already showing up. Everything is a pointer. Yeah. The question is whether the recognition comes up. That's what I mean, recognition's coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's all trying, you know. It's the whole concept of going in and looking for one's thing silly. Yeah. If you're the tortoise and you're used to being the tortoise and you see it coming, you know.

It doesn't mean there aren't moments of going, oh shit, the hair's getting there faster. Like you're expressing. Those do come up too. But generally, it's more patient. It's not that freak out. Oh my God. Oh my God. It's sour for crap. I'll never get out of this. No. It's just the assumption that we've got to get somewhere, go somewhere, and we are a vehicle to get there, you know. Which is all not true. Yes, exactly. Because if there is an assumption that there's a me that is going somewhere, and there's something that that me will get, because that very me is the cloud. That very me is the veil over this depth of the ocean.

So if the attention rests back on the me, and keep checking, is there really any me there? And it finds, no, it's just bundle of sensations or mental images, pictures. No, no, there's no me. And then, okay. And then again, maybe the idea comes, oh yeah, but I have to try harder. I have to do more. And then again, like, okay, me again. So what is that me? And then check again, is that me? Because the way Bob is presenting it, it's brilliant. Because see, the me is so identified with this conceptual image, it thinks it runs the show. It thinks it is seeing. It thinks it is waiting to hunt.

It thinks it is thinking. But Bob says, look if the me is doing the seeing. See? The seeing is there. You open your eyes. You wake up in the morning. Okay. Seeing's there. Did me do it? Nope. It was there already. So the me can't see. I think there's two, yeah, I think there's two levels of assumptions of me. And that one there, which thinks I might be able to do, I don't really have that one. That one's, I forget where you came from at the beginning. I just saw quite a differentiation. The other one is more where, you know, still the same investigations occur that turn up to check, is there a me there?

The second one is like that me is just happening within another story. It's not an overall having to do something with my duality. Yeah. See, I dropped that assumption quite a long time ago, the big one, where there's an assumption that there's a me there all the time as long as there is ego. There's a me. There's an identity. There's a fully framed database. It's there all the time. There's no gaps when, as long as I think it's I. You know, that assumption I dropped really early on, especially when you were talking about just patterns arising. That was a bit visual. And, you know, there's no such thing as ego.

There's just a, I think Bob says something about, there's just a few words that are road making a sentence. There's a thought that pops up and there's just energy and there's nothing. And I've had seen it earlier on and then dropped it. Never disbelieved it. Which means there's anything up there, but no disbelief turned up that way. And that felt really experienced seeing a notion pop up as a 3D image. And then the words, oh, I think I will, blah, blah. And then a description of what was in that notion. And I just saw it all happen in space. And so that's never been away from any kind of looking into that particular aspect of there being no ego or mind or anything.

And so that assumption of there being a permanent me for the times that it's not being seen through are dropped early on. And so that, so then it's just, it's just the little me happening inside the bubble that is a big occurrence. There was no bigger occurrence like, oh, I'm going to drop this identity thing that I have all the time. I just dropped that as an idea. I just, well, it's just a notion and I just didn't buy into it. I was like, oh, hey, you don't need to buy into that. You don't need to buy into, yeah, any of that stuff. And it's been very useful.

Because there is no way to drop anything, you know? Yeah. I can't drop things. I can't stop things. I can't. Yes, I didn't drop it, but it just disappeared with that explanation you gave me. Yeah. And that's part and parcel of there never really being, there's never been a sense of, I have to go to Bob's now or not or is there a decision to make or any of that? The closest I ever got to any of that was actually just today. Like, there was a weird notion that came up, oh, I might not watch that Sharada Marthing at 6am because I'm really tired and I want to sleep.

You know, do yourself that same online. And it was the closest we got to the notion of there being any kind of decision about doing any of this in the last 200 years. I've been doing it 6am. It's just being a turning up. It's just being a turning up. How did that? So there's like two layers of the eye, you know? There's a bigger one and then there's a little one where you just catch out. How did that result in something? But you don't think you can do anything about it when you catch out. You just catch it out. What's that? How did that result?

Well, just to...