Group meeting — 2 December 2014

We'll save you there. I can pretend not to know you. Any chance of erasing some of it? Okay. Anybody got any insights? No, you've got any questions? Nobody's ever got any questions. Yeah, well, with with him saying, you know, not enlightened yet. I mean, when people say that or when people are asking, my spontaneous response is but it's all there just seeing that just checking out this identity that you've been with all your life, you know. So there's always something to do whether you're feeling good or whether you're feeling bad. I mean, it's I'm probably useless telling all these people that. But that is a response I always get.

There's always something to do. This identity that's been there. And it's fascinating. Just that I've created this self. It's just total fiction, as you say. Yeah. Yes. All the stuff we pick up around the traps you're saying and talk about realization, enlightenment, awakening and all this crap. We all miss out on the basics. It's exactly what they talk about. It's non-dual, one without a second. There's nothing other than that. Who or what can ever be enlightened or unenlightened or anything at all. They're not pointing out that it's some state. Most of the books, talks and everything else talk about some state. One of the things you say, Bob, is watch the mind and see how it operates.

And as soon as you do that, it reveals many so-called things. For instance, every thought is spontaneous. It appears and disappears. It doesn't actually have any duration. And if you don't ruminate on thoughts, they naturally resolve themselves. They just disappear. So, you know, it seems peculiar. Yes. That. that one can get into so much trouble with them. Well, we do get into... I'm glad you mentioned that, because sitting on the veranda today, I was just thinking, yeah, it's all spontaneous, you know, but it doesn't mean it's random. And what I'm seeing about my thoughts, the thoughts that I've favoured all my life, you know, now I tend to favour a lot of Advaita thoughts, because they interest me.

It might be sex, or it might be the football, all these other thoughts. I have favoured them, and in favouring them I probably should... it's spontaneous. But it's not as though I start thinking your thoughts or Gilbert's thoughts, they're definitely my thoughts. In seeing them, they're definitely coming from this conditioning. But seeing that... ... they really do dissipate, and I say, yeah, I've favoured... and there's a greater distance from them that... they're just not... they were never my thoughts. There's been a favouring going on there, because it was pleasure, or a favouring because I was anxious and wanted to get rid of these thoughts, you know.

But there's a... ... there's a disidentifying with them, you know, I can see that they were never... it's just the whole manifestation. You know, churning them up, and yeah, they've churned them up through this brain, because thoughts do take place around brains, you know. Anyway, it just... Can I ask you a question? You say, they're there because I favoured them. Yes. So that implies... It was a favour... ... someone favouring them somehow, like... Yeah, I know it's the language, but I guess I wanted you to say a bit more about that, maybe... Well, the two and a half year old, you know, he's not really sees himself as a person yet, and yet there's a...

there's a favouring going on in that whole mechanism, you know, for these particular thoughts, you know. I guess I don't really like that terminology, the favouring thing, because that implies to me a... Yeah, yeah, sure. ... some kind of a doing, or something like that. I couldn't... yeah, yeah, sure. You know, a favouring or not favouring, or... Yeah. ... whatever, so I kind of... I don't know, like, for me it's like, today if I went... like, I went through like a really... period of really chaotic thinking, but then for me to say that I favour that thinking, but there is... I kind of understand what you're saying, there is...

there's an attachment. Yeah, well, there's been a... Or, I don't even know... This isn't being... ... or just... ... block your ears for the moment, there's been a conditioning there, you know. Yeah. You know, there's been a... you know, there's... like, second... ... like, sexual thoughts, you know, there's been a... Yeah. ... time has been given to them, you know, here, you know, the... Yeah, but this is where I don't like... this always implies somebody that's giving time... ... the language, yeah. No, no, like, it's... but I just can't get my head around the language... ... because then sometimes, like, you know, in thought, in language, it'll appear if I'm going through something chaotic that...

but even... even the thought... The chaos has been... you know, chaos has happened there a lot of times, you know, so... Yeah. ... and that's why people, you know, the... ... people who turn up for therapy, and it's the same... Yeah. ... it's us who turn up, you know, they... they've been going through this stuff for a while, you know, it's the same... it's not as though I can just... it doesn't... you don't snap out of it, but what I'm saying is that it's a... it's a real distancing thing, yeah. I don't... I don't have to think about this, it was all just the... the manifesting, you know, yeah.

Forget about... No thinking about... what they... what's going to be related to. Yeah. Nobody, it's just the... it's just coming out totally spontaneous, you know. Yeah. So, we can... not... not being divided by discriminators must be all equal, mustn't it? Not favouring one over the other, or good or bad, there's no favouring it. Yeah. Everything is in that equilibrium. Mm. Like as we say, no one in his ticket doesn't stop halfway there. There's always two ends to the stick, good and the bad, but... you know, is anyone favouring that stick? No, no. Does the stick favour itself? I want the good end or no end?

But I use that... like a leaf, a leaf doesn't turn into a curtain, you know, it's... it's all spontaneous. Yeah. There's... and I'm not going to use the word because it's going to be, you know, I'm not going to use programming, because where would the programming exist, you know? It's all instantaneous, you know. Yeah. So what must it be? It's all spontaneous. What's the base of it all? Nothing? Just... No thing... No thing? We call it, isn't it, awareness? What we call awareness? I see. Everything... everything we use... awareness, that's the way to mind, or... and thought, mind, or... what's the other one? That's the base.

Mm. Now, whatever appears, anything... Whatever appears, anything is only an appearance. It hasn't got any substance or any independent nature, so it's still always and ever that. So the labels and discriminations, we're dividing something that's never been divided at all. It's displaying all the time in different pattern shapes and forms, but none of the pattern shapes and forms really have any substance or any independent nature. So as you say, you go into the old habit patterns and the old seeming conditioning, and these things need to be looked at and questioned until you recognise there's no entity there that has any substance or any independent nature.

And there's no thinker of a thought, no seer of the science of seeing. There's nothing ever happened really, not even any awareness. That awareness hasn't got any substance or any start or anything yet. If it's spontaneous, it's spontaneous. What creation can it have? In the end you don't bother relating to anything, just leave it as it is. Knowing that it's going to change, that change is going to happen. Display is constantly changing. So there can't be any time or any place or any obscuration ever. It's never ever obscured. It's always that though it seemingly is. It's always that. It's always that. It's always that. It's always that.

It's always that. It's always that. Yeah. All thought is phenomena. It's phenomena like every other phenomena appearing in the manifestation. It's just phenomena. But the interesting thing about thinking is that thinking always operates dualistically. There's always a seeming subject and a seeming object in any thought process. That's what the mind does. The mind always... The mind operates in a dualistic way. It's always that. It's always that. It's always that. It's always that. The mind also operates in a dualistic way. There's me and then there's the other. That's how it always operates. Does everybody recognise that? Mhmm. I recognise it in the sense that me and the other only exist in language and it is the nature or the tongue of...

Me and the other are the language? Isn't that all the mind's done? Yeah. That's the way the mind functions. Realistically. Yeah. I don't fully see that, I don't think. I don't fully see that or understand it, I don't think. I mean, I do to talk about it, but I don't think that... I don't know, is there any other way to know that? Well, just watch it, see it. If it's not good, what is it? Or somewhere within that range. I might be totally mad, but... If it's not pleasant, it's painful. Not happy, it's sad. Not past, it's future. It's not here, it's there. Now, have a look, can this thing you call mind or thinking function in any other way?

You don't know. You don't know its vibration. What's the boundary to putting it? What's the limitation in that? Thinking, good, bad. What's the limitation? What's being put on? Well, the boundaries are staying put on. Well, good and bad, aren't they words? Yeah. They're the limiting effects you put on it. Good and bad. You can't go any further than good, or you can't go any further than bad. Yeah. Or pleasant and painful. Why do you say you don't know it? When you see that? I'm going to use the same terminology, I don't know. Don't know why I say it. I just... There's something that I feel that I'm not getting.

Or not understanding or... And I realized that everything that I just said then is in language and doesn't really is not... Can't be attributed to anything but... Well look again when we say the word's not the thing, have you seen that? Have you investigated that? Yeah. What word is the thing? Any word is the thing. No. Say I don't know anything... that's not a thing either. That's what needs to do, that's what the investigation is all about. Say it here all the time, but you've got to do it yourself and put it all apart and see. Is there still the identification with the thought because the thought, you know, like today it's like, I'm going crazy, I'm going, I'm like, I'm losing my marbles or whatever it is.

Yeah, well what would you do with that? What would you do with that? Again, there's a certain amount of seeing that that's appearing in something and there's also a... Well wouldn't you ask yourself, who's going crazy? Yeah. Well wouldn't you look at that, who is going crazy? You could only say me. Then you would have a look, who is me? What is me? Does me have any substance or any independent nature? And you say, no, me is only a thought. Another word. I is another word. You look into your language and see a thought is never the thing. But we label these thoughts and believe that I'm going crazy.

So the me that's going crazy is the conceptual image you've put on me. I'm Mick, I'm so and so and so and so. All based on thoughts, concepts, words, ideas that you've learnt along the way. And events and experiences and things that have happened to you. So this image you've got about you. So that's all it is. It's a conceptual, thought up image. But can that conceptual image see, hear, taste, touch, feel or do anything? Can an image... See those pictures on the wall, they're images aren't they? They're drawing. Reflections in the mirror. Images in the mirror. All these patterns appearing in space, you, me and everything else are images.

And nothing can trouble you except in your own imagination. Nothing can trouble you but what you image. Image in. Is that true or not? True. Make sure you can say it's true. Then, for a while, it's constantly recognised. Don't keep questioning your images, ideas and concepts. Seeing what you've picked up along the way is right or wrong or whatever. And you've got to put a bit of... You know. As he says, when effort is needed, effort will appear. So if there's any effort needed to have a look at it, they will come up with itself. But there won't be any effort maker. Yeah. There can't be.

See we go along here saying the same things. Week in, week out, day after, times and days and days. Not until you tear them apart and really look into it, see what we're saying, then you see that you've only got this image of yourself. That hasn't got any power. You see it hasn't got any power because the thought can't see. A thought or an image can't hear. Those images and all the reflections that are in their image, they can't see, they can't hear. The images you've got in your mind can't do anything. You know, it's that life essence, that animatic life essence, that intelligence energy or sentience, whatever you like to call it, wasn't functioning.

You couldn't have any of these things. So then you're going to continue to believe that they have some power. That I haven't got it now, I'm not enlightened, but I'll get it if I do this, do that. You're relying on the words, you're relying on the concept, I think you're going to get somewhere. For me, this is not 2 plus 2 equals 4. If I understand 2 plus 2 is 4, in this case, maybe 4, I think, because I'm listening to you, you say it and I understand. Yeah, well you do, you work that out, then you never question again. Immediately 2 and 2 comes up, immediately you know it's 4.

And if somebody tries to tell you it's not 4, you'll vigorously deny it, no, I know it is 4. This is only... the knowing that you are. If anybody was to say you are not, you would vigorously deny that, you know that you are. That's not an understanding, it's gone beyond the understanding, the understanding was working it out. It's gone beyond the understanding, into the actual knowing. Knowing is the actuality, knowing is a vibrating pattern of intelligence energy. But for me, your talk is still fiction, I feel. I checked myself, there is no me or no I, because I'm not body or mind, and same as other people, and also there is no chair, there is no substance.

I understand, but still, still for me it's maybe, maybe, and I don't have confidence, that I understand. Well that's what made you develop, the confidence, the absolute confidence, the certainty. Is the world flat? No. No. But if you stand on the shore, and look out at the horizon, doesn't it look as though the world ends where the sea and the sky meet? Yeah. Now, but you know it's not flat, so it hasn't changed. You go to the ocean and get a bucket of water out of it, will you get a bucket of blue water out of it? No. So you know that the water is not blue, but the sea still appears to be blue.

The horizon seems to be blue, the horizon seems to be the edge of the world. The water in the mirage appears to be real. But you know, in that investigation, do you believe that the earth is flat ever again? Yeah. No, not true. No, you don't just understand it, you know it, because you've investigated that, don't you? Same with the blue water of the sea, you don't just understand it, you know it. That's why I say with investigations, when you have an investigation, it moves from understanding into the actuality, into the knowing of it. So when I come to Bob for the first time, he tells me that this David is a total fiction, okay?

And that makes me happy, alright, because David's very unhappy, okay? So he says it's a total fiction, you know. So I keep looking at this fiction, you know, I see how it was created, it's a... you know, by my memories. All put together, you know. But right now, they're not here. It's just in my mind, I tie them all together. That is David. So I keep looking and looking. And that's what Bob means when he says, keep investigating. Then it becomes more real. But between you and me, it won't happen in one day. See, when you first thought up me, you were told me and I.

You learned those words. You just didn't hear it once or twice a week or whatever. Every hour of the day, you were thinking me or I. Not only you, but your parents were saying me and I. Your school was saying me and I. Your work, for instance. Everybody was reinforcing it. So it's seemingly concrete, seemingly solid. So you've got to break that concretisation down, that period of the conflict. Just a question. When you're not relating to the believed in me, where are you? Have you moved away from presence awareness? You're still present and you're still aware. Do you have to put those labels on? I am present, I am aware.

But do you understand that or do you know that you are? Do you know that or understand it? But you said about the label. Label. Label. We put on the label, for example, chair. But I can't see without the label. This is a chair. I already know this is a chair. It's difficult to look at this without the label. How can I see without the label? When I was a born child, I can see it without the label. Look around the room. Yes. Have a look around the room. What do you see? Everybody. Chair, people. How much can you label? How much? Can you label?

How much can you label? Label. Label. Label. Label. How much can you label? How many things? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't know many things. Many things. But you can't label them all. So you're seeing things. Ah, rather. You can't label them all. So you're seeing things without labeling. You're registering everything in this room. The smallest detail is being registered. But you can't label it all because you can't remember it. Oh, yes, yes, yes. So you see, you can see things without label. That's things you've got to investigate and have a look. But without focusing, I can't see anything. I can focus on chair, I can see.

But just watching, I can't see anything. Just watching? Just seeing? What do you mean? Maybe you see, you say my awareness is watching. Not thought, but awareness is watching. Yes. Maybe you say. But I can't understand it. Yes. Well, are you seeing right now? Yes. If you pause your thought for a moment, do you know it? No. Do you stop seeing? Without thinking, do you stop seeing? Yes. Still I can see. Pardon? I can see without thought, but I can see. But without thought, I can't judge anything. No. No, you don't discriminate anything. But intelligence will come up. Yes. You know, you can't judge anything, you can't choose anything, you can't think anything.

But that life essence that's living you will bring up what is necessary to do. Have you ever gone to the toilet without thinking about it? Have you ever gone to the bathroom without thinking about it? No. You are always thinking something. Yes. But not the bathroom. You just keep going to the bathroom. You realise there are so many things you can do. Yes. You remember one day before an industrial, I'm thinking something. Just got to get the last one out. There's thoughts, you know, if we break it down, a thought is a vibration. Yes. All thoughts have that in common. They are a subtle vibration.

Yes. Whether they're spoken or just in the... in the so-called mind. Yes. They're a subtle vibration. That's what they have in common. Yes. So, a thought is a subtle vibration. Yes. And then the mind interprets that subtle vibration... Yes. ...through a habit of, you know, the words we've learned and that's put onto the subtle vibration, added to it. And then we think that's... that's real. Yes. Whereas it's the original vibration that's real. It doesn't go away, it's just there. So, the labels we put on things is not the so-called real world. It's an interpretation of the world. And we form habits that we think in certain patterns.

Yes. And we need to break that habit. Break it down and open it up and see... see how it operates. Because it's very mechanical. Yes. That's why so-called people get caught in a cycle of suffering. Yes. Because they don't want to investigate it. But to actually go through the suffering without trying to run away from it is like a transformation. If you go through the suffering, you know what it is. It's a tool. So, you know, like... everything is registering in the system. Yes. It's registering in the seeing without the labels. But the labels appear. They also appear in the seeing. But they're not necessary.

They're necessary for ordinary communication and things. And whatever. But... And it's the same with the body. The body is a subtle vibration. It doesn't need work. You know, I say, this is my body. There are labels I put on it. But what is it? And it's... I think it's interesting to really look at the mind and see if you can actually recognize the subtle vibration of a thought that hasn't necessarily formed into words or got a story going with it. And they appear and they disappear. As all vibrations appear and disappear. And that's freedom. But as soon as you start following a thought, it'll lead to another.

And then there's a story and the character is caught up in so-called phenomena. The truth is there's no characters anywhere. And no one has caught up in phenomena. What were you saying about the suffering? Like, go through the suffering? It seems that everyone wants to avoid the suffering. So they don't actually learn anything about what the suffering is. If you go through the suffering and recognize it for what it is, isn't there a sort of a transformation that happens? In order for there to be suffering, there has to be a sufferer. It has to be related back to something. So it's related back to me.

This primary concept of me. And it's me and my story. Why did this happen? Why didn't that happen? And it just goes on and on and on. But going into the suffering doesn't mean going into the story of the thinking. No. It's recognizing that it is only just a story. Well, in every psychology, you know, you can never... Not in the guts, you know, sometimes. For an ache in the heart, love in the throat, or... You know, seeming physical feelings are there. Knots and things like that. But when you realize they're only caused by mind, if you've got a physical problem, a broken bone or a bruise, you can pinpoint that.

But where you've got this big knot in the guts or, you know, sense of... what you'd label fear or unhappiness or whatever, when you go to look and see where that is, try and pinpoint it. You know, it's seemingly stuck. Here's that one. You go in and you try to pinpoint it because it's not physical. It will dissolve when you go into it. You can't find a center to it or a point to it. If you've got no center or point you can fixate on, what must happen? For a start-up, it's not... All the looking is the looking trying to find it. The energy is in the looking.

There's no more energy going into this. It's being looked at. And nothing can live without energy. Without being looked at, it must dissolve. But you're so habitually... And we don't want to look at it. We avoid it at all costs, going into it. We move away from it and moving away from it, it keeps it there. You go into it a couple of times, like that, break it down, it's never going to bother you again because the energy of belief can no longer go into it. And that's all that formed it, belief that there is... You know, I've lost something. I've been deeply hurt. I've had this...

Somebody said bad things about me or whatever, you know. Or I'm depressed, the life's going against me. You know. All those things are psychological. It's all psychological. Anxiety, stress, remorse, guilt, shame, fear, unhappiness. All forming things, these sensations in your body, that the energy keeps going into them and makes them seem to be solid. But they haven't got any substance or any independent nature at all. It's the same when you look at the V or the I. See, the thought I see can't hear, the thought I hear can't hear, the thought I'm aware can't be aware. You realise that thought hasn't got any substance at all or any independent nature.

The thought can't stand on its own. It's only there because of the energy of belief going into it. In nature, pairs of opposites are happening and there can be cyclones, storms, tsunamis, fires, everything in nature. But nature's not hanging onto it or not suffering because it's got no reference point to relate to. It hasn't got any labels. It hasn't formed any self-centre. And so what happens? It's not fixated on, it moves on. It's transient, it changes. And it's constantly changing. In this body, it's transient also. Breaths coming in, breaths going out. You don't get that same breath again. Heart's expanding and contracting, pumping blood around the body, doing all sorts of things.

And you're not thinking of that, what your next heartbeat's going to be, or your next breath, you know. You're not concerned with those things, they're spontaneous. Naturally, or that big hamburger you ate tonight, you're not worrying about that, but it's being digested now. All naturally and effortlessly. Just the same as nature, you know, it's rolling into summer now, and naturally getting hotter. And it'll keep moving on. And the sun, Earth's rolling around the sun, the sun's facing, this part of the Earth is facing away from the sun, and it's becoming dark. But what does nature know about light or darkness? It doesn't know anything. If it had a mind to discriminate and label, we'd say, this is dark, or this is light, or this is winter, or this is summer.

But we, we could say it's fortunate or unfortunate, we've got this thing which we call mind, which can be very useful, because look at what it can do with it. But what, look what it can do to us, also, when it tells me I'm no good, that I'm fearful, that I'm unhappy, or depressed. So it's a useful instrument, but it's self-destructive, and it's, the energy goes into the, when it's vibrating the wrong way. And it'll always vibrate in pairs of opposites. It'll either be good or bad, but the problem, so in the investigation, it seemed that there's no self-nature anywhere at all. You come back to what they basically tell you in the first place.

It's non-duality. Meaning not to. They describe it by saying, one without a second. And they're putting one without a second, because the idea of one even, implies there could be other than one. And then the implication, that means there could be two. But they're telling you strictly no. It's one without a second. There's no second, there's not two. Or they'll just tell you that's non-conceptual, ever fresh, presence awareness. Just this presence awareness, that you can't negate right now. You mightn't recognise what it is, but you know you can't say, I am not. And it's ever fresh, it's spontaneous. It's not the same presence awareness you had a moment ago, but it's seemingly the same.

Just this and nothing else. They put just this and nothing else. Pointing out that is all there is. And now they're stating it's omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. Total presence, total power, total intelligence. Isn't that the absolute totality? So in other words, you don't need to go any further than those three statements from those different religions. But even in the religions, they break it up into this, that and the other. The three gunas, five tattvas, whatever, 108 this, you know, Father, Son, Holy Ghost. They divide it up conceptually and try to become something. Not realising. Basically, they are being. Have always and always will be just being.

Not was-ing or will be. Just actual being. Not becoming. Now you can go along the lines of the scriptural text and I'll lead you to look at this and get a bit of seeing something in this. Get another insight here, another insight there. Insight there. And it goes on forever and ever. And ever and ever. And not until the light dawns and you see the erroneous belief, the falseness of it all, that the recognition is that I've always and ever been this. Just this, nothing else. And I've always and ever been this. All those things that went on, the dramas and troys went on, that seemingly obscured, that seemingly had me in other states, other places, other directions, they're just like the dream.

They never had any reality, never had any substance or any independent nature at all. And it doesn't even matter anymore. And the miscellaneous saying, oh I should have got it 30 years ago or 40 years ago. Where's the 30 and 40 years now? Even the concept of time disappears. And you recognise this is how it is right now. And it's certainly not the same body I had 30 or 40 years ago. It's not the same image I got about myself 30 or 40 years ago. But what I am is ever fresh and ever new. Only what's right in this immediacy. It is no thing. No thing whatsoever.

And look at that, the anything and no thing. Do you see? It is not anything and it's not no thing. It's later about it. Things are just a label we put on the unmanifest. Or the patterning. Or on the manifest, I should say, on the appearances. All this manifestation is full of things. And the manifestation is empty, spaced like a web. It is no thing. And we take the things that are appearing in to be some thing. Now can something appear in no thing? It can't be. So the things that are appearing in it are no thing also. And we say it's just like mind trying to change mind.

The things... We look for the things that are appearing in the mind with mind. You think you're ever going to find them? You can't find mind with mind. You can't get to know thing from thing. Because the thing has never had any substance or independent nature. You're taking a false premise, whatever you like to call it. You're taking a false start. When we think we're going to get it from being this entity. I think we're going to become enlightened from the believed in entity. Because the entity never was. You're starting from a false belief. Now how can truth ever be recognised from that? What difference would it have made if you got it 30 years ago anyway?

If you've always been that? Nothing. Wouldn't make... That's what it's not. It's not going to make any difference what you do with it. That's what difference it makes, you know, whether you know it or don't know it. I think there's much to it. Something moves you to look at it, you see. So if something moves you to hear it talked about, why the fuck should I need to talk about it? Nobody gets it anyway. Now you listen here young man. But the talk can happen. Like people say, you know, going back to the Hindi. Did the saga go to Thailand? Did the saga go to Thailand?

Did the guru tell you to talk? The guru had to tell you to talk, you know. Martin. I said no. And it wouldn't have mattered if he'd have told me not to talk. Couldn't stop it. Couldn't stop it. Just happened that way. The thing is you can't find what you've never lost. And one of the things is that the only time there is is now. And as you point out, you know, you can't live a moment in the past. You can't live a moment in the future. So where does that leave you? That leaves you right here, right now. And thoughts appear and disappear. And mustn't it be ever fresh and ever new?

Ever fresh and ever new. So as a thought appears, it disappears into the past. You can recall it or you can just let it go. And you can't relive that moment again. So isn't that obvious? Don't we say buying into the thoughts, thinking the thoughts are real, is a problem? Well, isn't it? I think it is. Yes, it is. And you can only think one thought at a time. So a thought about enlightenment comes up, some concept that one has about enlightenment. And another thought comes up immediately after that thing. Right, I want this. I want to have enlightenment. I want to get this. And another thought about enlightenment comes up.

And it comes up again and it becomes bigger and bigger. And bells and whistles start appearing and all kinds of visual... And then another thought about me comes up. Well, how do I do this? How can I get this? And they just come up, one after the other. And a story, a little story just forms. And a story is just a sequence of thoughts, one after the other. And I find when you were saying buying into the thought, well, who's going to buy into the thought? It kind of just happens. Yeah. If you think you're buying into them, you don't realise that, do you? You think there's somebody that's buying into that thought.

Well, you know, like thoughts like, oh, well, I'm not going to get that job interview. Or, shit, I'm not going to be able to pick up 50 kilos. Yeah. Well, if you weren't related to I or me, you know... No, you just do it. Just do it. Or don't. If you can't do it, you don't do it. Or it doesn't happen. Yeah. And they say nothing either good or bad, but thinking like this. Pointing out that thinking is the only problem we've ever had. But there's not always a problem. It can be very useful. Well, I mean, you could sort of, like you say, this house is in somebody's imagination first up.

Yeah. Before it sort of hit the drawing board. Yeah. And everything that the human form has evolved into. Technology and everything has been. Has been caused through. Emotion. Human patterns. Being the energy, life energy being utilized, forming the pattern, utilizing, making utilized. And there was different thoughts, feelings, emotions, and all the rest of it. But it's all spontaneous. Just had a little trip, Bob, down to the coast. And on the way we figured we'd see a few friends and meet my daughter and whatever. They were trying to jam a whole lot of events into four days. And I said, well, if we see this bloke on that day and we do this then and whatever.

Anyway, then you say, yeah, not a bad plan. And off you go. And the bloke who you're planning to visit is not home. Or something else happens that just throws the whole bloody thing out of kilter. Yeah. Now, it was always going to be. Yeah. Like that. Or it simply was that way, including the planning for the trip. It was that way. It's like you guys just went down to Vega to pick up the records. Yeah. Yeah, remember we talked about what the best deal. You get a trailer. Yeah. You negotiated with the bloke and I'm going to say this to him. And there was only one way.

Yeah, yeah. That it rolled out. Yeah. Because I even said to Toby in the morning, I got up at like the crack of dawn, looked at her. And I said, no, this is shit. I'm not doing this. You know, I'm not going to do that. And then we were ready. Rang the bloke up in New Zealand and said, no, not doing this. And, you know, gave him a lower price. He said, no. And so I said, right, we're going back to Melbourne. Hang up the phone. And two hours later, we're driving to Melbourne with 8000 records in the back of the van somehow. So it's clear.

It's clear. Like Gilbert was saying, it can only be spontaneous. Like Bob always says. It can only be. Everything is spontaneous. You know, even with me old mate Dave sitting here. What were you doing? What were you picking up on? You didn't like what he was saying? Yeah, yeah. What was the word he used? Imagining? Favouring. Favouring. Favouring. Yeah. It's just happening. You know, and you and you think that you are actually involved. It's just it is just happening. You know, Gilbert could bring his mandolin out here. Plucky's there. He's got a little bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit a bit of a bit a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit of a.

But he's got a little bit more out here. Plucky's either, you know, hearing is happening. Seeing. Is happening. Thinking. Is that good? Favouring is happening. Planning is happening. And we think now that we're going to plan, you know, next week. But even this planning is what is happening to me now. That's just it's just pure spontaneity. And then when we actually. Yeah. actually see that, and I don't think that's difficult to see, when you see that, then don't say, oh yeah, I get that, oh yeah, Bill, oh yeah, I get that, you know, like I, he, Bill, the body, mind gets that. That's not the case.

That is also just happening. And I do nothing. I do nothing. I have no volition, or no personal volition. It's just happening. You know, even when I'm talking, people might be planning a response to what I'm saying. You know, it's like, just happening. And it doesn't matter, really, what is said, or how it's said, it's just happening. And then someone might say, oh, you've got it all asked about, Dicey. It doesn't matter. It's just this, it's very subtle. It's very, yeah, it's very obvious, you know, it's, everything is just happening. And if you investigate that, then everything is just happening. And in that spontaneity, there is no personal volition, there is no I, there is no ego.

And all that ING stuff that Bob always talks about, you know, that's the is-ness. That's the newness, the ever-freshness. And then when we put an I over that, even that doesn't matter. Like if we say, I see, I hear. You know, you could just say, well, I'm, or I-ing is happening. You know, I-ing, the letter I. I-ing is happening. I, you know, it's just like another layer over the top, but it doesn't bloody change anything. It is still just all happening. Totality. Totality. That's it. Yeah, that's good. You don't have to be politically correct all the time. Whatever words come out, come out. There's this concept about doing all this sort of work.

It's supposed to create a wisdom. Is that crap? Yeah. All the courage, all the wisdom, all the noise is already there. You don't have to create it. It'll express more readily, you know, you're not locked into the conceptual image so much. The energy of belief's going into that. Isn't it? This sort of floats to the top like an oil bubble at the bottom of a pond. Or you see a leaf oil. In the middle. In the forest. It just falls. I'm not shaking the tree or knocking it down with a stick. It just falls. It just surfaces. If you say, I see, or I get it, and immediately you're stuck in that build, body, mind again.

Getting it. It's, you know, start from the fact that you are that. And then it's just totality. You don't know what you are. You don't know who you are. You don't know who you are. You don't know who you are. But you know that you are. And just to add something to that is that we, like, the body's known, the thoughts are known, but you can't ever be the body or the thoughts. And the point is you can't negate that knowing. That's how God thinks. Yeah, yeah. You can't say, I am not. The knowing, you don't even have to translate it. It's the knowing into I am.

Mm. Mm. The knowing there, whether you're translating it with the word or not. Mm. It's like that's the pure intelligence energy. Yeah. But through believing and being a separate energy, we put, we put clampers on it. We put limitations on it. Believe in the word. And it's not necessary. And of course, that stops happening once you see that, as Bob says, you go down to the ocean. Yeah. You can't get a bucket of blue water out of the ocean. Yeah. You know what I mean? It sounds like a silly example, if you know, but that's actually very pertinent. Once you see the limitations of just putting labels and believing in words and stories, what a downer it is on that natural intelligence.

It stops happening. But you know, it doesn't make any difference really. It doesn't really matter. I think in the dog chen teaching it says there's no difference. There's no difference between a Buddha and an ordinary being. Because it's all that, everything is that. It's all the different patterns that are appearing. It's all the same intelligence engine, appearing and expressing as everything. The only difference is the label. Exactly. So the mind can continue to do what it does. It's a mechanical object, it will continue to vibrate in a pairs of opposites, it will continue to vibrate in a subject-object paradigm. And that's okay, that's just what it does.

But there's no need to believe in that, there's no need to take that, give that any stamp of reality. Which is what we do. We take this I am, which is the primary concept, as real. We take that as me, I am, me. And then with I am comes... Not I am. Not me. The other. And then there's this belief in this me, I'm centrally located here in this body, and then there's everything else around me. It's all separate from me. All these relationships. All the relationships. And it's all conceptual, it's all completely, purely conceptual. But the mind will continue to vibrate that way, because that's just what it does.

It's a mechanical object, it will just continue to vibrate in this subject-object dualistic paradigm. Who cares? There's no need to believe in that. It's the belief in this subject of me, and then the other, which is not me, that causes the turmoil and the suffering. Because everything becomes related back to me. This concept I have about myself. If you see it as false, it's false and drop the belief in it. It's not necessary to take it on board again. Even if the same thing comes up. Intelligence is going to tell you don't go there. That's not true. So it's lost its hold. It's lost its sting.

Yes, I think back probably in my life. All these women that I was madly in love with. And you just look back and it would have... And even now, someone I'm going to see next week or something, they're coming round, and I think, oh yeah, but there's just no relationship there anymore. There's not... I've seen... They're not an identity. I've been imagining that all the time. So other things don't get going. They might be as hot as they once were either. So you'd be right. Let's say good ones. What they call effortless living. Effort might be happening, but there's no one that makes the effort.

It's all just... All happens effortlessly, naturally. The natural state. Nature, that was... That out there in nature, it's all natural. Whatever does nature make? And see what happens out there. You and I, we're no different from nature. We are nature. We tend to divide ourselves away from that, separate ourselves away. They say there's nature out there and I'm nature. You are nature. Are you outside of it? You can't be outside of the space. You're outside of it. Outside of the world, so you must be nature. Everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn. The whole of nature is unborn. Nothing's never happened. You might get a little seed popping up under a rock, for example, and that seed just wraps itself around that rock and starts to grow and produces a beautiful trunk and the...

The rock might get shifted and people might say, oh, that is so beautiful. And then a Feng Shui master comes along and he says, no, no, it's not quite right. We'll just move it a little bit that way and we'll put some more rocks under that big rock. People then might say, oh, you spoil it. Or they might say, well, you've enhanced it. But the bottom line is that it's just all totality. I like your word, mate. It's just totality. You can't exclude yourself from the processes of all that. No. That life isn't something to move through. Why would he want to move it? Yeah, yeah.

Well, move it or not move it. He couldn't, yeah. He couldn't do anything about it. You often say to people here, are you seeing right now? And they sort of go, huh? But you say, it's not a true question. Are you seeing right now? And then you go on with the investigation into seeing. That's just so powerful if you do it several times. And earnestly, like Nisargadatta says to do it, you see, one sees, it's seen that you don't do anything. And it's not just the seeing. It's the hearing and the tasting and the touching and the eyeing and everything. I think the problem is sometimes, sometimes we then say, oh yeah, I see that.

Yeah, that's good. And then that's really just a concept to talk about. It's not then directly experienced. You see that you are not doing anything or that you are not there. You're not even there. There's no personal volition. Then it becomes very clear and instantaneous really. You can't go anywhere else. And it's direct experience in a way because how else could it be? It can't be any other way. Trouble is nobody wants to be nothing. So when words like seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, doing, thinking, happening, when they appear, when they arise, immediately it's always about me. I see, I hear, I think. And the idea that the seeing is just happening and there's no one doing it, it scares the shit out of people because people don't want to be.

People don't want to be nothing. People want to feel like they are something, that they are someone who's doing something. And they're activating their, and they're an agent. That's making it happen. And they don't realize that being nothing is everything. Being nothing is everything, yeah. Yeah, because when you see that you're not the doer, there's no doer, there's no seer, there's no hearer, there's no agent there whatsoever. Then immediately the next question comes, well, what am I? Well, you are life itself. You are that. When I try to watch something without label, Without labels? Without labels, I only see that object with only a few seconds, and then thought coming again.

I want to keep the moment longer. But when you look at that thing, without the label, you knew what it was. Yes, I know. But just only a few seconds. Yeah, you know what it is, but then you've got to give it something, a bacon that you've got to put the label on it. But without the label, you know it. You know that chair is not the carpet if you look at it. You know that mirror is not the chair when you look around there without putting any label. You know what everything is. And if it's something you haven't seen before, haven't got a label for, you'll discriminate, you'll know that too.

So, what's the knowing that everything is without the label? See, that's before the label or the word has come up. So, that's the third pure intelligence is seeing and the knowing, you know, that's all. But only a few seconds. Soon thought come back. What to do? Yes, thoughts will come back. But now, now you're starting to realize what thought is. Yes. It's probably the thought just vibrating pattern of energy. And the word or the label made of sounds, you know, that sort of specifies it's not this or not that, doesn't it? You put the label on it. But I want to keep the moment longer, not a few seconds, or for example, 30 seconds or one.

Well, it's always fresh and new. There will always be fresh and new thoughts, feelings, and emotions coming up all the time. You won't, but what you realize is the base that they're all appearing on is still there. There's more silence in this room than what there is sound. So, the sounds come and go. But does the silence come and go? Does it? Silence doesn't come and go. It's seemingly obscured by this house. But it's still the base. There's more movement or stillness in this room than what there is movement. So, silence and stillness are the base. Things appear and then pass over the thing and then they're gone.

Where did that sound appear? The sound has gone, disappeared. Pardon? The sound has gone, disappeared. Yeah, where did it appear? Out of the silence, didn't it? It started... Where did it come from? It came out of the silence. Where did the sound appear first? I don't know. You hit the ball and then... Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's no sound until the ball is knocked. But there was silence there, isn't there? And where did it disappear into? Did that sound... Did that sound went on, vibrated out, till it merged back into the silence? So has it just obscured or hurt the silence in any way? Hmm? Do it again.

No. No, he might understand it, eh? Could that sound have come from anywhere other than the silence? Hmm? The sound... The sound comes when you hit. Yeah. But the sound itself didn't come from, you know? Oh, the sound comes from the silence. First there's silence, then the sound comes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And disappeared. Yeah. So it's not lost. Hmm. It's still vibrating out there somewhere in the sofa. You can't hear it. Just like you stir up the water. You drop a pebble into still water, that ripple will go there. So that's the same with stillness and movement. So there's a base. And that base is no thing.

That's why thought is no problem. Thought is calm and I don't need to the silent moment makes longer. I don't need just to watching it, you know? Thought is like that sound. It is. Yes. That seems to suggest, like what he just said there, there's a distance... A distance... A distance... I can't say the freedom word. A distance... Distancing? Thank you. There's a distancing from the thought. You know, David was saying that a while ago, you know, there's a distancing with the thought. And you just suggested that the thoughts just come across the mind. You don't... Like they come out of the silence. The thought's there, just like that bell.

Yeah. Like I didn't identify with that. But the thoughts, the thoughts seem to be different. Like they seem to be my thoughts. That wasn't my sound. It would have sounded terrible if it was yours. Is that... Those words you're speaking, are they your sound? I would have thought yes because I don't think, you know, unless... I don't think anybody can make the sounds I'm making. Every pattern is a unique expression. That is what I'm thinking. So your sounds are unique. Yeah. Are they your sounds? Whose sounds are they? Well, this is it. I mean, whose body is this? Yeah, well, ask yourself that. Whose body is it?

Well, I'm going to have to say it's the, um, the, um, intelligence energy. Yeah. Well, you see, have a look at it this way. Are you the body in the mind or are you the mind in the body? I wouldn't have said either one of them is correct. Yeah. So, if you're neither the body or the mind, what are you? No, okay, fine. I mean, on that sort of substratum that... And what can you say? If you're not the body or the mind, who's saying it? Who's saying what? Sorry? Who's saying it? If you say you're not the body or the mind, who's saying it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the only... It's the, you know, it's the no thing, the intelligence energy, the absolute that does everything. But, um, but, I don't even mean a but. It appears that this, this kind of expression is coming from this point. Yeah. And I kind of, it almost appears as if I own this point. Yeah. But isn't that what we talk about? The appearance is not the thing. And you say it appears. So many things appear. And you take the phenomena. That which appears to be, to be what you are, wouldn't it? All the time. But it's kind of, I mean, we've had this discussion before.

It's kind of, it's, it's, it's like the, um, you know, we're kind of constantly being responsible for everything we do. So you kind of think, well, you know, if I prank, you know, I know I'm saying if this and if that. But, um... Um... You know. I don't know. I don't know. Things just happen. Yeah. We realize things just happen. We'll just stay with that. Things just happen, yeah. As soon as you say, um, we're responsible, uh, who are you relating that to? Something you think is separate from... Or something I think could possibly happen in the future. Yeah. There are responses, but no one ever is responding.

I think there is still a fear of damaging this body. Yeah. Yeah, that's the instrument through which everything's expressing to you. That's the way. The wanting to live, the blessing of being is still there. You want to keep it going as long as possible. Yet we put all sorts of shit and rubbish in it and do all sorts of things that kill us off. Like ice cream. Yeah, cigarettes, ice cream, booze, milk food. There you go. My dad's got this t-shirt. I went to visit with my friends today and he's got exercise. And then the next one is eggs are sides. And then eggs are sides for bacon.

Which is like this, funny. Morphing. Yeah. There's so much functioning going on. There's so much going on naturally all the time for all of us. For instance, you can walk through a busy city. You might be thinking about something else or you might not be thinking at all. And everything registers. You don't walk in front of a tram or a car. You can naturally stop at the lights and blah, blah, blah. It's all happening. But when the focus is on me, it seems to be a problem. But all this other functioning is going on. As you say, the digestion's happening. The breathing's going on. There's no one there doing it.

So what does that mean, what Gilbert just said, with the focusing on me? Well, you're thinking about me all the time, aren't you? Everything is related to me or I. Which you shouldn't be doing. Well, you can do it if you understand that the me is a fiction. There's nothing there with any substance or any independent nature. Why would you do it if you understood that was the case? Well, could you communicate with me if it weren't related to you doing it? Well, I could... You know, as I say, you don't have to be politically correct saying all this is talking. There is talking to you or this or that or anything.

Putting it all in that bullshit stuff. Is that bullshit? Yeah. Talking is happening. That's bullshit. Yeah, well, it's very un... That's the very way of thinking that has confused a lot of people. But the point I was trying to make was that there's all this natural functioning going on perfectly fine. Like you walk through a busy city or you might drive like you drove home in the car and you found your way home. Yes. But you might be thinking about all sorts of other things. But what? But the point is that that functioning is happening naturally and spontaneously irrespective of what the me thinks it's doing or the focus.

When we focus on me, as Bob uses the example of a magnifying glass in the sun. You lay in the sun, it warms the whole body. You take the magnifying glass and put it in a point, it burns. And that's what we do by focusing on me all the time, it burns. And the focusing on me, that happens because you think the me exists. Yeah, well, the belief is that it exists. So it's very simple. We talk about it here all the time. Investigate that me and have a look and see if it has any substance of it or independence. Does it exist? As long as it exists, you're going to get captivated by that thought.

The thing is it doesn't exist. It's just an idea or an image. And it can't stand up to the investigation. As soon as the intelligence starts to look into it, it falls apart. But there seems to be a lot of resistance to really having a look. And people come up with all sorts of excuses and reasons. And people say, oh, look, I've done the investigation 50,000 times and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I mean, that's obvious bullshit. I don't even know what that means still, like the proper investigation. All I know is that with me there seems to be more of a gradual seeing through.

But, yeah, there seems to be like… It's not mysterious. If I said there's something in that back room there, I want you to go and investigate and see what it is and come back and tell me what it is. It's simple. You just go and have a look. And you come back and say, oh, look. You can say it's a box of Easter eggs or whatever it is. That's it. Is part of the investigation realising that the one who's doing the investigating is also false? You have to find out for yourself. And it's pointless listening to somebody else. Nobody can do it for you. That's the thing.

But that investigation you're talking about is that the me are thoughts. Right? Are thoughts. The thoughts are even substantial. That's the end of the investigation. Isn't it? Is it? Or isn't it? No, you were told before, being Aldo, it's the belief in the body. It's not, you know, you believe you're Aldo. That keeps the investigation going. Yeah, but beliefs are thoughts. Right? Beliefs are thoughts. So, the Aldo is a group of thoughts. Thoughts are insubstantial. They come and go and they disappear. And so is that statement. It's just another insubstantial thought, isn't it? Now, Hemant sir, we're talking about the investigation. We're talking about the investigation.

That's what we're talking about. Right? So, that's the investigation. That's the investigation. So you've done it? Well, I just did it then. Yeah. Didn't I just do it then? Did you? Well. Well, now there's... So where does that... Have you got a problem? Where does that leave you? That's right. It leaves the substratum there. That underlying stillness, emptiness, absolute, intelligence, energy, no-thing, whatever you want to call it, and you can't call it anything, right? That's what's left when you've got no thoughts. You've got no thoughts. And I thought that was the... Did I just do the investigation? Yes. I did it, didn't I? What's the attitude?

Where does the attitude come from? Well, we just all did it. Yeah. Right? Right. It sounds as though you're left with... But where does that leave you? Well, that's right. It leaves you... But this is what I'm saying, right? Okay, so that's it as it is, and yet I might jump in a car, drive home, and start thinking about myself. Yeah. Which you probably will, because... Which I probably will. That's the habit pattern. It's the habit pattern. What are you going to do then when you start thinking about yourself? Well, what should I do? Well, who is doing it? That would be the... I'm thinking about this.

Who is thinking about it? The obvious answer is me. So you see you've brought the me back into it again. Right. And then? Well, then have a look and see if that me is there or not. But as Bob says, the answer is not in the mind. Well, that's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. It's not in the mind. You're going to end up with another concept a metal tube to the next concept. Yeah. So round and round we go. So the reason I asked that question was because, like I feel there's a black spot there or something that, you know, do the investigation properly and you will...

But I don't know. There's an idea that I have that the self is the answer. Yeah. Yeah. something that I'm not... that's not happening. Language is dualistic. It implies there's somebody that can do it and all that. We've talked about all that. You know, you can't have a very special language. We have to use ordinary language. So it's wrought with all sorts of problems that can come up. So again, the investigation happens when it arises. It happens spontaneously by itself. And in... what do you call those things that come up? Intuitions? Insights. Insights. Insights for... All I would say is that there are lots of pointers that we hear.

And at some point we might actually hear a pointer really hear what it's saying. And then spontaneously, maybe not straight away, but at some time soon after, a natural investigation is made. And the rest of that will come up by itself. And it will be seen to be true. And nobody can take it from you. Because Mr. Gaddafi says about, like, earnestness or whatever he says. Like about, you know, you've got to... Well, people make that into a problem then. You know, you've got to be earnest. That's all conceptualised. Can I just finish off with what you were saying? So I'm in the car and I start thinking about myself.

And so at that point, I should do the investigating. And I start doing the investigation again. Saying, well, hang on a sec. Who is thinking about this? Right? And sometimes you say, when that sort of thing happens, you say, don't go there. That might come up. It might come up spontaneously, naturally. You don't have to think that. But it might come up into the thought. Thoughts might not necessarily come up. Well, it would only... I would have thought it would only come up, come up, if I thought it was wrong to go there. To be thinking that... Yes, you'd recognise that you're back in the trap again.

And that's when the insight might come full stop. Don't go there. You'd recognise that I've been caught a stone. So what's happening if I'm enjoying the dream? What happens if I'm enjoying the dream? You don't enjoy the dream. Enjoy it. It's not going to be any problem, is it? No. You know, I could be driving around and thinking I'm lying on a beach with half a dozen babes around me. No. It'll be all right until you run into somebody because... That's what I'm saying. You'd better wear mittens to bed, I think. Boxing gloves. Right here. Hey, Aldo, Aldo. Good luck. Good luck. Can I just ask you a question?

Is singing happening? Now. Another trick question. You know, it could be. Why wouldn't it be happening, Bill? Why wouldn't it be happening now? Are you going to answer the question? I had it. Why would singing be happening now? So you're saying that singing is happening? I would say so. Right. So singing is happening. Are you doing the singing? You, Aldo? I can't do the singing, no. You know that? Yes. How do you know that you are not doing the singing? Because I can't turn it off. Okay. So what is doing the singing? What would you like me to call it? Well, call it whatever you like.

How about the absolute? Okay. The absolute or the intelligence is doing the singing. So you're not doing it. No. So if you're not doing the singing, what makes you think that you might be doing the thinking or the hearing? Or the ploughing or the planning or the digesting or the assimilating? What would make you think that you could actually do any of those things? No, it's true. But what we say here, right, all those other things that you said other than the thinking, I've got no control over. Right? So I've got no control over the digestion. You know, I've got no control over... You've got no control over the singing?

No. You've got no control over the hearing? No. Because that just happens? That's right. Sensing, touching, smelling? All that. All those. Also the digestion, you've got no control. Why do you want to put them in different bags? You have no personal volition in anything. It's clear. You've just said. It's said. You've just said that. It's the thinking. Does it arise spontaneously? It does. What's your next thought? You don't know. It just rises spontaneously. That's right. And it disappears. Just like the sound from the boom. That's right. It comes and it goes. That's right. Just like the sound. Just like a body will come and go.

Like a word will come and go. Like an object will come and go. Yes. There's a butt. It's all vibration. The most subtle aspect that you can think of. Do you want to hear the butt? The most subtle aspect that you can think of. I've got a butt. You won't let me tell him. Like a photon or whatever. He'll listen to you though. It's all appearance. He's not listening to me. Can you say butt? Let him express his butt. Let's hear the butt. Drop your trees. It's a big fart. Drop your trees and say the butt. Let's hear the butt. Let's hear the butt. It's a big fart.

It's a big fart. Drop your trees and say the butt. Go to bed with a stiff problem, Aldo, and you'll wake up with a sticky solution. You'll wake up with a solution on your hand. What did we say the other day? You've got to start worrying when your hand grows pubic hairs. That's why I shave mine every morning. Steve's coming. It's a men's group.