This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original (above).
I said, unfortunately, yeah. Now, let's get serious. Well, I think I must kick it off. It shuts you up, doesn't it? That would be very serious, I think. Sure. Now, any new insights, intuition, or things happening, or any trouble going on? I saw something recently about self-centeredness. You know, there's a supposed me in the middle of this whole thing that's going on. So all of the memories, when there's a self-centeredness that's so-called active, all those memories are associated to the me. So when one tries to recall a memory from the past somewhere, it obviously is related to that me. You know, I'm talking, if you haven't seen through the me, so when the memory comes, it's all about me.
It's all about me, me, me, me. So that seems to, you know, trap the so-called consciousness or whatever in this cage of belief. Because, you know, it's all related to me. So when the memory comes back, it's related to me again. Me, me, me, me. But that doesn't seem to happen. It doesn't seem to happen much here anymore. It's kind of a curiosity. But it's like memories are more factual. You know, such and such happened. But it's still a construct of being, it's appearing in the present. As you say, you can't live a moment ago. You can't live a moment in the future. So a memory, you can recall a moment ago, and that will kind of reconstruct itself.
It's still a construct of inmediacy. It's still only a construct. And it doesn't have any real substance. So does anything have any substance? No. Well, what would you want to carry on with all that bullshit for? That's right. See, that's what you get for opening your mouth. Well, you won't get a thing. Talk about the weather, it's safer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've got to recognize, as if it's spontaneous, even awareness is non-existence. Nothing. There's no existence whatsoever. And can anything, all these things you're talking about, where are they going on in this seeming awareness, aren't they? Yeah. If awareness is non-existence, can any of the content be existent?
So you're free of the... It's causeless, yeah. You're free of a lot of the moment. Yeah. And the memory and all those things will come. I don't have to be worked out anymore. No, of course not. We'll start trying to work them out in the mind, and then back in the shit again really. But can't you just have sort of basic observations, and then draw opinions from that? Of course you can. Who would be doing it? Well, I'm just... Who would be doing it? There's no me there. Who would be doing it? But it's not doing... No, it's just kind of happening. Yes. Well, all the manifestation is happening.
But it's all my... It's all illusion. When you dream of the night, and you form the dream character, you having the dream, don't you? When you wake up, where does the dream go? What's gone? And doesn't the dream character go with it? Yes, sure. And you're left with this dream character, but you don't... But see, the whole lot disappears. Never had any existence, sort of. It's only spontaneous emanation, the whole lot. So, can't you have this character? You'll have whatever goes... And this is going on all the time. It's been going on... Not that there's no years, but seeming years with the pattern you... Way back as you can remember.
So it'll continue to go on. But it's not you having it, or you trying to get rid of it. As soon as you bring that into it, you're in trouble. It's all a spontaneous emanation. This is what I was saying last week. I mean, it's really difficult to say anything... Yeah. ...in a sort of... anywhere, even like a group like this, without sort of implying that you've done something. Because you haven't invited police, come on. That's it. I mean, sort of... Unless you start using language, well, you know, like... No thing observed an appearance... And then you walk, you know, and then you go down that track, you know...
Which is a correctness. Have you seen there's no thing there? Well, where I'm up to with regards to that is the logic of it. The logic is that the me is a word. And words don't really have any substance. So logically, the me can't have substance. So that's a logical thing, right? But there again, I... But once that happens, that's fine. But I find myself doing stuff contrary to that. Contrary to that logic. So I think, oh, well, I'm caught in the trap, despite the fact that I realise that the me is a word, and the word has no substance. And we say you won't find the answer in the mind.
No, but I'm not thinking about that. I'm only just saying... I'm only relating that to you. Well, who? Because this is the setting we're in. Yeah, but I'm going to say you're taking on board an entity again, and you put yourself back in the trap. Well, I don't see myself doing it. I mean, you can see me doing it. But I'm not aware of the fact that I'm doing it. Well, you are, and who knows what you're saying. Who do you think's saying those? Well, again, we're back to that aguarder of police staff, is, you know, the non-conceptual awareness was blah, blah, this and blah, blah, that.
Yes, but if you know that, understand that, you couldn't give a fuck what anybody says about you. Now, that's true. That's true. And sometimes I give a fuck, and sometimes I don't. Well, that's it too. Otherwise, why would I blow up with this and that? But you say I give a fuck and I don't. Sometimes I don't. You're relating it to me again. You're bringing a separation into it, that which is inseparable. And when we say, you know, no two-ended stick, no one-ended stick, I should say. It's a rough end and a smooth end, you know. So, I think the stick's going to say, well, you know, I don't want this rough end, and the rough end comes up, I've lost it.
There's some poor analogy I know, but see what I'm trying to say. There's nothing that shapes this, there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Now, if it's, and the target is realise, says you realise you're dreaming a dream, you call the world. And stop looking for ways out. The dream is not your concern, it's your concern. And you said you love one part of it, not the other, and that's what you're doing. No, you want one part. Now the part's seemingly obscuring. But if it's non-duality, what was ever obscured, whatever could be obstructed or obscured, see, you just, when you say that logical, intellectual grasping of it is not it.
Basically anything in language is not it. Because all duality is on it. It's not language, is it? Yeah. So any time, you know, because I do the same thing, like I'll have thoughts and I'm like, and then, you know, what do you call it, like mental masturbation, and thinking, oh, I've got it, I've got, you know, there's some grand concept being captured, it's got wings and it's got tail, it's got, you know, it's looking fantastic. And then there's something that catches that. And then it's like, ah. And it then just falls. It falls away. Like it's not, it's just that realisation that anything, anything in language is not.
Well, that's the, that was our, see, the quick way is like, see, everything that appears is in what we call awareness or consciousness, if you like to use that term. The whole manifestation appears in that, and that has got no existence. It's spontaneous. It hasn't got any beginning. It hasn't got any end. So can any of the content have any existence at all? If it's the content of it, can something come from nothing? It's not, all these things are the content of it, and all the thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything is the content of consciousness. It's manifestation and all that is. If you know that's non-existing, what can the content be?
Nothing. So you realise that you are that emptiness. And the thing that, trying to go work, get, grasp the content, you've got to empty yourself of the content also, because that is the emptiness. It's not a matter of emptying yourself. Just recognise it. The emptiness of emptiness. The content is. So it's all emptiness. So let it go, whatever it is, which it will do. It has done. Could I say, though for me, my experience at the moment is that there seems to be, like when I'm, when I'm sitting here listening to this, Yeah. and there's a resonance or whatever, like there's a feeling in my chest which is whatever it is, but there's, there tends to be more, there's less activity and there's more, like today I was thinking it's kind of, it's kind of almost like dipping your toe into the water and testing the water, and then I'm finding that I'm sitting in silence a lot more, Yeah.
and before there was a nervous energy or an activity that if it was, if, like the silence couldn't be there, like it was just, it's just kind of too active, but now there seems to be a, yeah, like a, just sitting, sitting in that more. I get, and then it's like anything that comes up in the mind, any story or any idea of self, all of it has to be seen through. There's none of it that's, that's substantial. So, so slowly that happens, like it's happening more and more that it's seen through. Sometimes it's, I get caught up in it and sometimes I don't. All of it's like, yeah.
I guess the question that came up a couple of times today is, yeah, I don't even want to ask it because it's just, it doesn't even need asking. No, well it doesn't need asking. I mean, you go that was, that was a rough one. Yeah. But that was about what you just said, you know, all these things going on. What is it saying, hence in Ming, one thing, all things move around and intermingle without distinction. Sorry to say that again. . One thing, all things, means the whole, move around and intermingle without distinction, where you're not, there's nobody discriminating, and it's not, it's not a bad thing.
If discrimination goes on, That's just the interminable, that's just the... The discrimination again is just a character in thought. Yeah. It doesn't mean to say there's going to be some, but there will be. As you say, things are dropping off purely and simply because they're not believing in the same way they were before. No. They can't get... When you see something that's false, you can't get the same intensity into it anymore. So what sort of discrimination are you talking about here? You do do a certain amount of discrimination. You'll have a glass of water over scotch or you'll eat one thing over something else. You won't eat a plate of shit or dog food.
So there's discriminating happening there. So when you say discriminating... Yeah, well who's relating it? What are you relating it to? Well preferences. I suppose. No, you were talking about discriminating. Yeah. And I'm just kind of trying to get a clarification of what we're talking about as far as discrimination is concerned. Yeah. Because you do a certain amount of... Of course. A certain amount of discrimination happens. Thinking still goes on. Feelings, thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything still goes on. Right. And discrimination, you know, liking, disliking, you know, is not difficult for those who have no preferences or no hate. Or both or absence. Both or absence. Everything is clear and understood.
Yeah. Everything is clear and undisguised. But the smallest distinction... Well the smallest distinction is related to something, isn't it? Well, something... He says to try and find mind with a discriminating mind is the greatest of all mistakes. Yeah, but in that particular case, that's saying to me that the attention is directed towards the mind. To try and find mind. Right. But I'm talking about just everyday discrimination where... Well, is it discrimination then? Well, this is discrimination. Yeah. This is what I was asking, you know, what does it mean to discriminate? Yeah. That's what I think I'm asking. What does it mean to discriminate? If it doesn't mean, like...
Well, if you have a preference for one thing over another... I'm saying that's discrimination, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm totally wrong with regards to that and off the track. Well, if it's being related, but if just... See, like you think... I say Aldo doesn't like spaghetti. Yeah. Well, you think you make a choice. You have a preference. But is there a choice maker? Is there a preference holder? That's what makes it a good idea. Well, logically again, the choice maker and the preference holder are both thoughts. Yeah. So, that's where I'm at at this particular stage, is thinking, well, the thoughts are insubstantial, so they can't be.
They can't be, yeah. So, there's no choice maker. There's no preference holder. No. So, somebody will come up and you'll say, oh, I'll have that. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. I or me with impunity because you're not talking to or labeling it to anybody or any entity. It's just a thought that's coming up. Not an entity thinking of it. Right. Bob, if there's nothing... I guess I am going to ask that question.
I was thinking of it. It's come up a little bit. But it's about it's about this the idea of... there's an... you know again getting all this vital language. Apparent body. I understand that there's the thinking and that can be seen through character arises in thinking and all that sort of stuff. But then there's an actual... there's a like the idea of enlightenment or somebody who gets something. Right. The search and everything like that is more and more seen that all that is just mental fluff. Right. It just just happens. I don't even know what the question is. Well, who's the questioner? Yeah. It's just...
So it's just more thought, more talk. But there is seemingly benefits to this apparent thing. This whole thing. Because... What are the benefits? I don't know. Well, isn't it a dropping away of all the hard-earned habits? Sure. And the stress and the conditioning. Yeah. That's the benefits of it. Yeah. And that's the sense of well-being in that. Yeah. I mean the question, the actual, the words of the question. It doesn't make you any better as an entity. No. Or any worse. Just a natural relaxing into that ever-fresh presence of the energy. Because it's... It's almost like this... The tactile experience of thoughts and all that sort of stuff.
If... It's the realization makes you relax a little more. Makes this relax a little bit more. But it's ultimately realized that there's no... I don't know. Whatever. Yeah. I guess I'm saying is ultimately realize that there's no... There's nobody here to get anything or to... You know. Because all that... the myth is starting to... you've seen through, but there's, yeah, there's no question. Maybe we're going a bit too deep tonight to get the last out of you. Well, we've been talking about discrimination, and you said talking's not it either, but it's everything, you know, it's everything. Everything is vibration, from the slightest discernment to the planets.
It's all vibration. And what's looking at that? Can you be that thought that you're looking at? You can only, you know, the I, or the I that you look for is the universal I, you know. And if you're going to conceptualise that, then that's just another thing that you're looking at. Yeah, because the concept arises in that. Yeah. Yeah. So that, whatever you are, is indistinguishable, unlabourable, no qualities, nothing. You know, if we're talking about discrimination, or discernment, or words, you know, it's just all vibration, just all appearance. Is it such and under a quality? Being, knowing, loving to be. No qualities there? That's just, that's just obvious.
That's not a concept. That's just all it is. And that's just the state of being. Well, he said no qualities, and I'm thinking, you know, if you're going to put those three labels in it, being, knowing, loving to be. Bob says it's Sat, Satvananda and also Nama, Rupa, name and form. So, they are natural as well. So, it's natural to, you know, the mind makes names and forms, makes perceptions come up. It's also natural. It's no big deal. I just thought that sort of, that we're getting nothing was a quality. Most people are stuck in Nama, Rupa. They think that's all there is. And they identify with that.
But that's an illusion as well. Yeah. Yeah. There's a cognizing emptiness that we speak about. There's not, there's nobody there doing that anywhere. It's, as Bob points out, it's the emptiness that's doing the cognizing. So, that, you know, if you really hear that, it's like it pulls the whole story out. Yeah. Everything is uncaused. So, all you have to do is relax. And... Well, you don't even have to do that. It's happening by itself. Well, Mix is certainly a lot more relaxed than he used to be. Not trying to figure it out. He gives a good impression. He's relaxed. It's an illusion. No, you haven't.
I read the other day that Nisargadatta had just a short, brief sentence. He said, you are not the seer. You are not the seen. And you are not even the seen. Yeah. I mean... Should I say that again? You're not the seer. You know, we often say here the natural function is like seeing, the ING words. Yeah, that's the natural function. Oh, you're not the seeing. Yeah, you're not the seeing either. I mean, seeing is almost palpable. Or discriminating is palpable. But you're not even that. No, that's right. Yeah. Take it to the ultimate, you're no thing. No thing. Emptiness. Yeah, yeah. The crunch is, it's absolutely no use.
It's, it's, there's absolutely no use, you know. There's no benefit in it. Yeah. And what? For anybody in understanding this, the emptiness of emptiness, if that's what it is all about, what the fuck? There's nothing... Yeah, I guess I said that. You can do about it, it's just the way it is, and that's the way it is. But it's just totally... Well if that's the case it sounds like you're addicted to nothing. How can that be? Well, I guess no, we'd have to be someone addicted to it. That's duality. I just had this image of Gilbert over a mirror with a straw with lines in it.
Parts of a ribbon, we could all do a little bit of that. I'm surprised that Gilbert said that, that this has no benefits whatsoever. I mean, just the fact that you... Yeah, I'm disappointed too. I'll be back. So there you go. I could probably... Of course Aldo's going to be disappointed with that. No, Aldo's the person who's going to be disappointed. No, he's the person who's going to be disappointed. It's an apparent entity. You don't want your money back. I want my money back. There's no chance of that. He wants his money back. No, he says I wanted my money back and I said there's no chance of that.
Why would any believed in entity have any interest whatsoever in emptiness or no thing? There's absolutely nothing in it for the person. That's right. There's nothing in it for the apparent person. The apparent person. The believed in person. There's nothing in it for the... We'll use the analogy of the black bang and his head up against the wall, you know. Yeah, I like it when it stops. When he stops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything in it for him then? Yes. He's no longer causing himself any physical damage. Right. Yes. Well, when you're not... Well, there's a benefit. Yeah, well, when you're not relating to the self-centred, you know, there's going to be lots of benefits, isn't there?
Well, that... You'll feel much better. Much better. But not... Is anybody going to feel better? Well, I just have to agree to disagree at this particular point. Because of my ignorance. I get what you're saying. There's no benefit because what you ultimately are can have a benefit. Well, you can't benefit. You are no thing. Yeah. How can there be a benefit for no thing? The only thing that can have a supposed benefit or a deficit or whatever is... An imaginary entity. An imaginary entity. Yeah. You told me you didn't worry the other day. You don't worry. Only when I talk to you. Well, you didn't say that then.
No. Right. You didn't say that then. I'll be honest with you. Right. Okay. So, he says he doesn't worry. There we go. I think that in itself is a benefit. Yeah, of course it's a benefit. That's why you look along these things because you think... believe you'll get benefits. But all the... with all the shit drops away, it's seemingly very beneficial. Yes. But what... What's the benefit? It is. Well, have you had... When you've got the comparison. But once that's gone for quite some time and then you think, oh, well, okay, I haven't worried for years. Well, what does it do? Well, then becau... it then becomes the...
what's happening now. No, it doesn't become anything. It doesn't become anything. It's just as it is. Well, it is as it is. Well, it is as it is. What is means unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. So, you leave it as it is. Yeah, but a decade prior to that... As it is is a lot better than not... You're tearing your hair out. You're tearing your hair out. You're tearing your hair out. Yeah. Yes. But prior to that, you're... not as it is what you want it to be or what you like it to be or what you don't want it to be or what you don't like it to be.
It's not as it is then. No, then it was. Because, you know, when you're relating it to something. Yes. There's no relationship. Everything is just as it is. Well, you can't sell it whiter if there's no benefits. There's nobody there to have any benefits. You know. There's no tape, is there? That's what the other four million people in Melbourne have here. Well, that's... There's no benefits. There's no adviter either. Well... The adviter is just a label. Sure. Sure. But you see... People get, I'm a non-dualist. What the fuck does that mean? Yeah, well, but you... I know. But you see, the thing is... Well, listen.
All right. You did... What was it you've been doing? An writer. No. Sorry, Chad. No, it's 27 years. Oh, 27 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. School of Philosophy. School of Philosophy. School of Philosophy. School of Philosophy. That was Ed Wider. Yeah. The writer, man. He did 27 years in school of... What benefits did you get out of that? I got shitload of benefits. Did you? Yes. And what are you doing here, man? What the hell are you doing here? Well, okay. You're teaching us. No, okay. But I told you the story with regards to that. I found this a bit better than the School of Philosophy.
All right. So, I saw that there were loopholes and it became a bit of an institution. and they were chasing their tail right but that's only because I had a comparison with something else which was this right and then I could see through the bullshit that they would they were having but who's to say whether they got it right because we won't go into that but well if I've got it right you must get it right and you've been there for 27 years well they haven't got it right they haven't got it right yeah but they do have a certain level of contentment within themselves that that holds a bit but when the shit it's the thing then you know and how can that be contentment if when the shit it's a fan no I know you can look at it like that but if the shit doesn't hit the thing then it's content it's like I had this this girlfriend when I was living in England and she was she was into TM yeah and her mother you know she was a little bit more into the shit and she was like I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna go to she'd been doing TM since she was four years old and her mother had been doing it all her life for a long time and then when I saw her like after I left the UK and I saw her again a few years later she was telling me her mother had fallen into a deep pit of depression because she had broken up with her husband and all this stuff well that'll do it right and I thought to myself after all those fucking years of doing this TM shit if it couldn't help her at that critical point in her life what's the fucking use what's the point no that's right yeah that's right that's right and this is the thing all these things that we do all these practices and all these philosophies that we get into but the only way you can test for yourself that you've been here for five years or four years if the shit hits the fan for you and you ride it if you ride it then you can say big tick bob don't bring bob in it you know so if the shit hasn't hit the fan for you right with regards to this you can't test it it has hit the fan oh has it yes all right okay okay okay it's still an illusion it's still content no I look that's fine no but it's not just fine well it's fine that you're saying that thank you I find that there are really big benefits here you know there are big huge benefits yes I agree because I've been spending 40 years doing TM yeah I agree and spending a hundred bucks a week on buying books the price is going up doing $500 weekends and $4,000 courses and where did it get me you know I can just look pick up a book now and flick through it and say oh that's just more experiences you know I can go and see a guru or your philosophical classes and you know they do go around in bloody circles they're just not going anywhere so there is huge relief it's psychological you know an absence of psychological suffering big time here you know and when the shit when you say here you mean here here I just mean in a general sense oh yeah there is there is well where can I be except where I am no no I wasn't sure what you meant to when you said here huge psychological relief and if the shit does hit the fan like it has in the last five years since I've been seeing books yeah you know it's a big relief you know it's a big relief you know it's a big relief you know it's very manageable and Bob's had big events in his life you know being you know fully versed in this advice stuff but he gets he gets over it and I'm sure if any other technique that I can think of you know when you when you have to be subservient to the guru or there are techniques or there are there are you know procedures to follow and whatever stands up to this investigation of non-duality, you know, nothing.
Because it's just so clear and immediately if the shit does hit the fan, you can, it's just very easy to, well, you know, just see through that eye which is not there. It's a phantom and it's not valid, you know. So who is it, who is it happening to? Stuff results, stuff results. And I wanted to say, you know, right at the outset, that that scene, Bob, you know, I know that this can be seen by some people instantly, but that scene over time, it just becomes more solid and, you know, I'm going to say more joy and more everything, you know, just more, just seems like more and more and more and more.
And I'm thinking, I'm thinking about the, the, if what I am is not identifiable and it can't be put in any terms, then all I can be is all of you and all of this stuff. That's the only way that I can sort of see it. From the everything you go to the nothing. Yeah, yeah. And nobody's ever gone beyond nothing. I think, no, no. Another way to look at it is the so-called person, the, as it exp, the person is the person. The person is only an expression, right? And that expression will continue to express. That, you know, so the, so the seeming, the apparent person will continue to, to appear, it will continue to express, it will continue to appear.
But now there's, there's an understanding that that person that you believed yourself to be is not real. But it doesn't mean that suddenly that, you know, that, that, that, that appearance of a person, that expression is going to suddenly disappear. It's still going to continue to play out. It's still going to be apparent likes and dislikes and preferences and things you're good at, things you're not so good at. Whatever characteristics or attributes you could, you could label on that person. It's still going to continue to appear. But there's a knowing that whatever it, whatever it is that's appearing is not real. You can, you see it for what it is.
But it, you know, but so it can just play itself out. But, but it, but there's a, there's a deep and under and, and sort of a very, a very grounded recognition that whatever it is that's appearing, no matter how elaborate and no matter how sophisticated it might appear to be, it's not, it's all just a, it's all just a play. It's all just, just fluff and bubble. And so there's, you know, there's immediately, even, even for the, for the believed in person itself, there's an immediate relief there. That it just knows that, you know, all this is just a game. And, and there's a, there's a recognition of what, what it is that's appearing.
What, or, or what's actually, what's actually the base in which everything's appearing in. So it's almost like that believed in person now knows that what I, what I actually am is the nothing, is no thing. Although I appear to be real, although I appear to be, I, I appear to have this, you know, this seeming solidity. But I know that I'm not. And that's a, a direct upfront of everything you do. Like, you know, like you, you know that. Yeah. That. And when you find yourself being attached to something. It's, it doesn't happen. But there is a recognition and then you laugh about it or you're not.
No, no, sorry. I caught yourself laughing at, at yourself with regard to, and then you laughing at yourself finding that it doesn't really work. No, that doesn't really work at all. trying to get that thing going the other day. Oh, I saw it, doesn't matter. You were there and I think what had happened is that you didn't switch it on or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I never switched it on down there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I saw you laughing at yourself. Yeah, I could have beat myself up. You could have. You could have gone, Oh, I'm a friggin' idiot. I can't believe it.
And I've lost all that. Oh, what a shit. And what's Gilbert going to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gilbert's going to score you. He's going to beat me up. None of that happened. And you're right. And I find myself, and like, you know, like I'm right in my troubles a lot better than could be because I've been listening to Bob's stuff for the past five years. It'll start seeping in. It'll start to... So, you know, like the lady I'm with, you know, I've told her my problems and she said, you know, you're doing really well. In comparison. He's always putting shit on me, Bob. Always putting shit on me.
Who's that going through to the door? He wrote me a filthy text the other day. I think it was today or yesterday. I don't know. Bloody hell. You know what day it is? No, I've got no idea. Thursday. I don't know. I have to refer to my phone. He's always putting shit on me. He's always putting me down. Well, good. When you're not taking delivery of it, where does it go? No. Well, yeah, it's water off a dust bag. And I reckon that's another benefit of it wider. Is that it doesn't cling. But, you know, like in those upper echelons where, you know, you're thinking, oh, well, you know, there's no benefit for me.
Well, if you keep thinking that, you can't sell it. You can't sell it wider. If there's nothing in it for anybody. There's nothing to sell. No, okay. But if you, you know, like... Well, like people... come upon... come to this sort of thing because something moves them to come. Yeah. They're attracted to it so much. It's not about seeing there's nothing in it for me, you know. It's just about... They try to... usually try a lot of other things. And something draws them to look at something else. Yeah, but that... that attraction is generally something in it for me. Don't... wouldn't you say? Well, to start off, yes.
Because you're in trouble. You want out. You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be that. It's just an inquiring mind would, you know, might just... I mean, I wasn't in trouble when I started looking at it. Mm-hm. For ages, for years. I think everybody has moments, you know, of recognising that there's nothing wrong. But generally, they go back into the story almost instantly. Yeah. And Bob's first book is called What's Wrong With Right Now? And you should think about it. It's a very direct pointer. And I think it's an amazing opportunity to actually taste the fact that there is nothing wrong. And it's only the so-called dualistic mind that discriminates and puts labels on things that creates this seeming thing that's wrong.
And it's this sort of feeling that there's something not quite wrong in my life that sort of drives us to find something to fix that. And it's all relative. It's all cause and effect. It's all appearance. There's no actual result. You know, if somebody makes the statement, I am now enlightened, you can be absolutely sure that they're bullshitting. Because there is no entity that can be enlightened. It can only be the oneness, the totality. If enlightenment is something, then it must be the totality. So, in the appearance of things, I would say, it seems that the message, and Bob's a very good deliverer of the message, is that, is recognising the emptiness of emptiness.
It's not just recognising emptiness. It's recognising that that idea you have about emptiness is actually empty. And there's nothing you can say about that. There's no need to say anything about it. But that's... It appears that as we have all these insights, it's really nothing but a recognition of that emptiness that's happening. And therefore your life appears to clean itself up. Because, naturally, you're not buying into the coarse conceptual stuff anymore. And there's a seeming progress of more refinement, but it's all relative to this recognition of the emptiness. But in the appearance, it's all illusion. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, there's nothing in the appearance.
There's nothing in the appearance. Cause and effect is an illusion. Well, that's okay, because then you can say, well, look, I don't give a shit about anything. You know, like, let them kill themselves over there in Samaria, or... And, you know... Yeah, but you're not going to do a story about... No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Would you say that? No! I did say it. I did say it. There's no entity there. That would be the point of saying, because you think, if I say, don't give a shit about anything, you think you're doing something. Right. Just doing it. Right. You're not leaving the spontaneous act.
See, there again, I don't like... Great place. Yeah. There again, it's like what I was... But it might come up with something, I don't think. But, you know, it's no deliberate entity taking charge again, saying, well, I don't care. I'm not going to, you know, like the bloke in the phone book. I won't do anything now. Okay? Just don't do anything. See how long you don't do anything. Stay in the phone book. Something will move you. Well, that's quite prevalent, because, you know, you can't be staying in the phone book, because if you want to do a crap, you're going to forget that. Well, that's the same...
You see that about life. All the things you say you can't, don't want to do this or don't do that, you know, you've got no say in it, ultimately. Something will come up and change the situation. And none of it's separate. None of it is separate. Well, you know, it's... Just looking from... a me point of view... Which a lot of it. Don't look at it from a me point of view. That's your problem. Quit looking at it from a bloody... Get the me out of the road altogether. Well, if you're looking for a me point of view, there'll be more mes going. But it's like what I was trying to express earlier on.
I mean, the person is going to continue to express. And if the person cares about what's happening in Somalia, it's not going to change. That caring will still be there. It's not going to suddenly disappear. There might not be the kind of emotional attachment that creates suffering. That might drop off. But that caring will still be there. That's how it's playing itself out. And the thing is that... The person's never stopped expressing. What's happening? Even the expression, like the confusion in the moment, is still an expression. It's all expression. Well, Aldo, you know, even asking about what it is, is still the expression. But the thing is you're not doing anything.
You're not the confusion. You're not the bit where you've got it. But you're all of it at the same time. I think. Yeah, I think you said it right. One of the interesting things for me is like, you know, the Advaita police thing, like the talking. Because if... I notice sometimes I go to say something and there's the internal Advaita police. They come and go, well, no, you can't say it that way. But again, it's reference points that you're going back to things that you've read about, you know, how people say things about Advaita and what can you say and what can't you say. And I think, I would think, once there's, again, a deepening of it or understanding or whatever it is, there's no referencing back to it.
Am I saying this right or not saying this right? It just comes out right. Because it's understood. It's not being... You're not catching yourself referencing a million things really quickly in your mind to try and get the thing to sound like you know what you're talking about. Understanding everything is spontaneous. Where are you going to find time to relate to it? Yeah. Like, you know, without time or... Yeah. Somebody makes... What's happening in Somalia? Something, you know? People will fixate on that, not realign their bit. 200 people die in Melbourne tonight. Mm. If you look at the paper tonight, there'll be death notes in the paper.
Kill that... You're not fixating on them. You couldn't care less. So it's kind of like... Remember what I was saying last meeting about listening? How it feels like now listening there's not so much chatter internally. It's the same thing with speaking. Like when you're speaking, but at the same time you're thinking about what you're saying. Like there's all these internal conversations going on and there's little nudges here and there and to make sure that you say things correctly. It's not spontaneous. Like it's being referred to ideas of who you think you should be, how you think you should be saying things and all that sort of stuff like it.
And it's not spontaneous because it's being referred to. Yeah. There's something Bob said before which I really like. Like he said, you can just say I and me with impunity. Yeah. Because you know it's just coming from emptiness. Yeah, it's just a word. Yeah. So then you just talk completely naturally and no need to talk all this advaita speak. Yeah. Just talk naturally. Yeah. I said this, you said that. Yeah, but you try and do that here... And then all of a sudden they're all like, you know, you've got a reference point. Yeah. You're speaking right now. You are speaking right now. Yeah, I am.
What's wrong with that? Well, I'm not talking to Bob. I'm talking to you. You're not going to jump down my throat. How wide can you open your mouth? Big mouth grey frog, because there's no bells here. Big mouth grey frog. Big mouth grey frog. Big frog's jumping around, jumps on the back of the cow and he says, Hey cow, what sort of food do you eat? And the cow says, Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw.
Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Braw. Not many a demo around Eastie. He says what? Not many a demo around Eastie. Anyway. You're a liar. You're quite a character, Alderman. Oh thank you. I should not be thanking you for that. Probably not. Too many reference points. You've got a great personality. Oh good, thanks. And there's something about you too. Oh wow. Get a room. You have to change the name of this. He had wider bars. He had wider bars. They used to be in town where I used to work in the building down the bottom. They had all this construction going on for six months.
It was called the Roman Bars. It was a big gay place. Gay haunt. They had all these bars. Where is this? Melbourne? No, Sydney. 250 Pitt Street. Roman Bars. Be visited as often. How much to get in then? What do you mean? Mate, they've got a lot of disposable income. Anyway. So. Yeah. Look, I still think at this particular point that there's benefits to doing this. To relinquishing yourself of reference points and stuff like that. Life just becomes a hell of a lot more easier. But to this apparent to this apparent entity. You've said very good. Meldo. Since you've come down to Melbourne, have you found it's been helping?
I think it has. I think it has. Yeah, I think it has. And plus some of the things, you know, like I've been doing. Also too, you know, like I've been thinking about what Bob's been saying over the past month or so. And I think it's sort of helped me along quite a bit. Well it must register. Yeah. You know, pushing everything out. Something must resonate. Well, oh yeah. Right. And plus also too, the sort of the kind of format of these meetings. I'm becoming more and more familiar with. And sort of kind of learnt not to ask too many questions. Ask the questions. He's still behind I think.
I don't think he's caught on. That's pretty true. You don't ask too many questions, but you tell everybody everything. Oh well. Then there's that. I've got to learn that. So you say there's benefits to this entity. What is this entity? What is it? Where is it? Have you looked into that? I suppose I could say what I said before. With regards to, you know, words. Entity and words and stuff like that. And Gilbert... Where is this entity? Where is it located? Well okay, you're right. There's no location. Where is a thought located? Exactly. If the Aldo is a thought, where is that located? But I was going to say, Gilbert was saying something earlier on with regards to memory.
And I think Bob's got a little bit. What is a memory? It's a recollection of the past. Which happens... Oh yeah, sure. It happens now. But... So it's just a movement of energy. And it's no different from what it's appearing in. No, well... It's a movement. Where is this movement taking place? Yeah, sure, sure. Where is it taking place? Here and now. What's around the movement? Emptiness. If I got it wrong, until I get it right, you're going to keep doing that. Is the movement, is the stillness in the movement, is it separate? Are they two separate things? No, they're not. So is the memory and the thought, separate from what is appearing?
No, it can't be. No. So everything appears dualistically, but that's just how it appears. And there is no separation. There is... So whatever way you want to look at it, me and you, entities and forms in space, you can't separate one from the other. You can't have one without the other. Yeah, but doesn't that... Well, I mean, I think they say that in the Sing Sing Ming to deny the emptiness of things, that I can't... Emptiness is form. Form is emptiness. So whatever way you look at it, it's still the same. It's very simple. No, no, he's just finding it simple. Simple-minded. That's a good thing.
Just recognizing that the consciousness, if you want to put a label on it, consciousness, just recognizing that consciousness is spontaneous. There's no one there doing it. It's just spontaneous. It doesn't even have a duration. You can't measure a duration. So... Scientists will tell you that in one second, the brain is processing millions of data or whatever, much more than your computer will process in a whole year. And that's in one second. And am I doing that? Am I even calling it a process? Am I even doing it? Am I conscious that the brain is doing any of those things? No. So somewhere on the surface of that, this idea of me appears.
It takes credit for all these doing things. Cause and effect. And if I do this, then I'll get that. It's all spontaneous. You know, call it consciousness, call it awareness, call it nothing. But we call it mind. And mind is just a label also. If there was mind born, or created, then it's a label. Well, so here's the thing with regards to that. Just a simple answer. Is the mind born? No. Well, what's the statement they make about it? Everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn mind. Mind is not born. And you know, discriminating with thoughts, it resolves itself. That's the benefit. Well, there you go.
If you like to put the label, better. Yeah, I know. Making it something. I had an interesting thought the other day. Every now and then I have the, if I'm doing my inquiry, or writing, or doing whatever, I have the question, so what is thought? You know, kind of there's something there that wants to know the answer to that. And I got the answer to that, well, I had an answer to that the other day, which is, it's the same as actually, I've forgotten how to say it. Like, thought, a thought is the same as any other appearance. So again, the other day I'm like sitting and watching cars going past in front of the cafe or whatever, and a thought's actually no different to that white car that just went past.
Right, it's completely spontaneous. I had no control over that white car going past, and I've got no control over a thought going past as well. So, wanting to know what is thought, ah, frick, I wrote this down. Wanting to know what is thought is the same thing as wanting to know what is tree. And it's just a description of an appearance, and that description in language can never be the thing. So, wanting to know what it is, it kind of cancels it out, because it is what it is. It's simply that. Like, it can't be anything other than what it is. It's just a thought.
But also, what's all that? Thought, movement, the car, everything else. What's it all? What's it all broken down into? Isn't it all activity? Isn't it all activity, energy? What's all that energy? Vibrating into different patterns of thoughts. And car, whatever, all those words, it's just labels you're putting on. One energy. One energy, one essence appearing and expressing and patterning, shaping and forming as everything. But do you even need to go that far? You don't even need to say it's energy because that's making it, that's putting a label on it. No, you don't have to say anything. In recognising what it actually is. In recognising that it's all in your jaw.
But isn't it just recognised? It's just like a thought comes up. Look, you see the blue sea. You have to recognise, if you have to say there's no blueness in the water, there's no blueness in the water, once you've seen it. But you don't have to say anything. No, well the same with all this. It's broken down first and recognising that the sea was never blue, never will be blue, never could be blue, full stop. Even though it's appearing, to all the pens and purses. I don't even want to go that far Bob. I just want to, like, you just see, that's what I'm saying though.
Yeah, but if you haven't seen it, you go that far in the first instance to recognise that everything is that one essence. Then after that you don't have to go that far again, you don't have to think about it. You don't have to think about I or me or any of the others. But seeing that, are you going to believe it's something other again? You don't have to go that far, you don't have to think about it. That's spontaneous. Spontaneous activity or whatever you like to call it. It's happening. It's got no duration, it's got no volume. If you say you've got to go that far, you're putting the volume and the duration on it, isn't it?
Well, I was actually saying that I don't want to go that far with it. No? With an, like, again, We're saying you don't have to, if you haven't recognised it, you're still going to believe the water is blue. You're still going to believe the earth is flat. You're still going to believe there's a me there. You don't believe I think, I see, I hear, I feel. Those beliefs are still going to be there. Investigating and recognising that nothing's ever happened. There's no creation, no creation, there can't be any destruction. Everything is just as it is. Well, full stop or not full stop, doesn't matter. Now, can you ever move away from that?
Can you ever get out of it? No. Can you ever lose it? No. Good. It's all over. Silence created. Was it there all the time? And this chat of noise and argument and going on, seemingly scary. When it all ceased, it was the same with any movement, any activity. What was the stillness? The base of it was recognised. Not created, it doesn't have to be found, it was never obscured. Even though it seemingly was. So the emptiness and the silence, the stillness and the silence are emptiness. Does the appearance cease? If it never began, how can it cease? So it's unceasing. But what is, you say, what is is unmodified.
It's uncorrected and unaltered. Yeah. And it can't actually be modified, corrected or altered by anything. But a seeming concept alters it. Those are conceptualising. You said just now, it's unceasing. Yeah. The appearance or the emptiness is unceasing. The awareness is unceasing. The whole lot is unceasing. Nothing's began. So how can it cease? But it's began. It's all unceasing. The appearance is unceasing. I mean it changes, but it's unceasing. Well the appearance only appears to me, doesn't it? Yeah. Yet it's not there. It's unceasing, but it's empty. So seeing things that things begin and end, begin and end, beginning and end, that's just the mental construct.
It doesn't make sense. The whole thing of things is sound beginning and ending. It's just a construct. It's like for me when I was looking at the idea of cause and effect in time, it's like, there's only a like if you have a start point and an end point, otherwise there's no start and no end because you can ultimately have cause and effect. Well the there's an effect now, must have had a cause, but then the effect now is the cause for another effect. So the cause and the effect are the same thing. And cause and effect is just another mental construction, which doesn't make sense.
It makes sense in time and space into an entity, but if you see through one of those, the entity or the cause and effect, the whole thing just collapses. It just doesn't make sense. And that's the beauty of it, you only have to take one point and go to a conclusion. People through one are the same through the lot of course. It all comes about through vibration. When you say nothing's ever happened, you come up with that well, can you get something from nothing? Well can you? Well I can. People can't sort of figure out how is it that I appear to be here? You know, if it's coming from nothing.
And okay, if I don't think about it, there's no time. If something can't come from nothing, then the something and the nothing must be the same thing. Well yeah, okay, so we've got two things here, we've got nothing and something. Yeah, and that's set up another duality. So why does that make it nothing? It's an apparent duality, but that's just the way it appears. It appears to be something and nothing. There is no separation. Because you can't actually have one without the other. If you sort of, even if you go in there scientifically and just look at it, you can't separate objects from space, or space from objects.
No. So how can nothing ever happen? So if you can't separate... Well nothing is unseating. What? What? It's unseating. It's never happened. It never started, so how can it end? How can things happen? There's no ending. Did it ever happen? The idea that things are happening is just an idea. Well maybe we're having two different concepts of what nothing is. If you've got any... If you've got a concept, that's not it either. Isn't it lovely how I make people laugh? Very interesting. It's not the same. My ignorance is just so entertaining. Aldo, I'm only laughing because I'm as ignorant about this as you are. I have no idea what they're talking about.
There's a recording of Nisargadatta when somebody asked him the same question you asked Paul. How come I'm here? And Nisargadatta says, how did the space come into the house? He says the space didn't come into the house. Something is building the house. Something is built in the space. And this house wasn't always here. It was probably trees and kangaroos and before that, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's a curious pointer. At first you think, what's he talking about? But it's like, in our thinking, we're constructing all these stories and concepts and constructs. And that's the meaning we give to everything. But actually, the essence of it all is space or emptiness.
So all that construct is actually emptiness. It has no substance. It appears to have substance. And when I believe in a me, I suffer. And that really seems to take on a reality. I don't want the suffering. And the resisting of the so-called suffering is what keeps it there. If one doesn't relate it to me, then it's just a sensation and it will dissipate. Because in nature, things appear and disappear. How did the space get into the room? It was there already. That's right. And the awareness of the consciousness is there already. No matter how, whatever the content that appears in the consciousness, it has no cause.
But how does what you're saying relate to nothing's ever happened? Well, nothing. There's no cause and effect. There's no belief in two reference points. This caused that. But without the reference points, where can you measure anything from? Well, again, go back to the dream. You know, all those activities going on in the dream, were they created? The events in the dream, were they created? Well, I don't know. Well, I don't know. Where did they go when you woke up? Where they came from. Where did they come from? Well, we say from nothing. And where did they disappear into? We say. To nothing. We. We. Okay, so you can say nothing's ever happened.
Well, you could, but there again, it's just a trick of the mind. We don't say that. You haven't read the book, have you? You haven't read the book, have you? I've read the book, yeah. Well, Aldo, if you think something has actually happened, what's the most important thing that has ever happened in your experience? Oh, okay. Well, that's an interesting question. It should be there straight away. No, it's not. Oh, you want to get a story about it. No, no, because I can't say anything is the most important. I couldn't say any part of my life was most important. Okay, how about this? Instead of taking yourself as the reference point for everything, just imagine for a moment that your reference point is the space in this room.
And the space in this room, you know, we've all come in and then we'll go out, the space doesn't change. The space that was here a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago, it's still just the same. If your reference point was the space, just imagine, all the things come and go, it doesn't matter, you just stay the same. Yeah, but I can't identify myself with space. Well, there's no identifying yourself with this form here, or identifying with space. Even though I say it's not arbitrary. It's arbitrary. But because all your life you've identified with this, if you just balance it off with, okay, for a while, try identifying with space for a few days.
And then you have to, you know, I'll give it a go. And then you see, hmm, I don't know why that made you laugh. I've got no idea why that made you laugh. We'll give you a little bit of leeway, identify yourself as a sperm. Ha ha ha ha ha. Taking your one degree out of space. I'd rather be the womb. Ha ha ha ha. Okay, you be the sperm, you be the womb. Or you're gonna be. You be the ovum. No reason. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Hmm. The reference point is arbitrary. You can, you know, you can identify here, you can identify as as the chair, as space, or you just don't identify with, as anything.
And that's the best. Well, yeah, well. Well then you just play around with it. Well the way we identify with things is through thought. Is that right? Through thought. Through thought. It's one way. What's another way? Uh, the feeling of me sitting here as a body. Yeah, but feeling is just another level of thought. Well, yeah. It's just all thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Yeah, yeah. They're all the same thing. So let's just, it's all conceptual. I could identify as a memory. I am a famous politician. No. Were you once? No I wasn't. I was a politician. I feel like I'm him. Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.
You're really stretching it there. I am a Buddhist. There you go. There you go. How's everything, Mr. Gale? Hey Aldo, have you heard the one about Aldo the Vigorous Sperm? No, I haven't. He goes to, he does all these weightlifting stuff every day. He goes to the gym, you know. And he's a big guy. He's building up his muscles and all the other sperm to see. One of them goes up and says, hey Aldo, what are you doing, mate? He says, haven't you heard? There can only be one. And that's gonna be me. And only one can penetrate that egg. And it's gonna be me.
And it'll be the best swimmer. Yeah, and he can swim like a fish. Like a spear. Yeah. Anyway, things start heating up. It gets a bit warm. And then all of a sudden they're shooting down this tube. And Stanley's, oh, Aldo's way ahead of all the others. He's a scalp of leather. He's flying down the tube. And they're sort of dawdling along behind. And you see him disappear in the distance. And all of a sudden he's like, he's coming back. And he's going, go back, go back. It's a blow job. It's a blow job. It's a blow job. It's a blow job. It's a blow job.
It's a blow job. I thought that one was quite apt. It's a blow job. Wasn't it, it's two blokes or it's two men or something? Or was there a variation of it? Go back, go back. It's two men, it's two men. Rubber shield. Well, that's, you know, he called him a sperm and I thought I'd tell him the story. That's identification. He was going to be the one. Yeah, you're right though. Me is a thought. That's right. Me is a concept. It can be a very sophisticated. I'm not right. Bob's right. He's the one who's saying it. I would open my mouth. Well, you have been.
But you were, now sorry, did I interrupt you? No, I was just going to say it can be a very, very sophisticated thought of me as a famous politician or a rock star or this or that and you have all these elaborate ideas about me and what I do. On a very, very gross level. I've been very careful to a very, very subtle sense of this sensation, this pulsing sensation that's sitting here on this chair is me. That's all conceptual right from that very, very subtle sense of me being here as this throbbing mass which I call my body, right up to all these fancy stories I have about myself doing all kinds of amazing things.
That's all. It's all thought, it's all concept. And it's all identification with the me. And plus there's another thing that I was thinking about today is that giving these thoughts the attention makes you tired. Because all that energy is going into the attention and then, you know, by the end of the day you kind of... You're right. When the chatter's in the head, the head's only vibrating in the opposite, it's good and bad, it's conflict resistance and conflict going on there, it dissipates the energy. So if you very gently withdraw your attention away from the thoughts and the things and put it instead on the space and the stillness and the silence that is always there, that's nice.
Yeah, there's another benefit. It's nice, yeah. It's always there, the silence is always there. And the bigger the noise, the bigger the silence. Can the silence be bigger than what it is? It's only apparently... It's like the guy banging his head on a wall. When it stops, it feels really great. He only knows it feels great because of what came before. That's the duality. So the more noise there is, actually, the more you appreciate the silence. You wouldn't know we had peace right now if you hadn't had a war before it. So you can say the more crazy and manic you were when you'd become enlightened, the more blissful you are.
Yeah, because samsara and nirvana are no different. The border goes back into the marketplace. Well, I think that's a really good point that you just made. Because if you sort of mood-make about being in the silence, you make a sort of a concept out of it, and then it's just like a thought. But when you say the samsara, which is what the creation of the appearance, and then nirvana, you know, the no-thing, they're just all the same thing. I mean, it doesn't really matter whether you imagine yourself in the silence or whether you totally make it. Because the habit is to be in the noise all the time, all your life.
Yeah, but once you see it's really... It doesn't matter. Yeah, and then you get to a point, you look at the silence, silence, silence, and then you look, like, sound, silence. And then the whole distinction between sound and silence, just falls away. So then, to me, that's what non-duality is. It's like the silence and the sound is in balance, and then the whole thing becomes meaningless, and it just drops away. Once this happens once, it's, you know, you don't have to look at it again. Yeah, but to have a technique to always sort of like imagine that you're in the silence, but go to the silence.
You don't have to go... Shift your focus from the attention, say, right, I'm not going to put any attention on that problem or that object or whatever, and then now I'm just going to be, like, you know, I'm going to be zen. I mean, that's just a concept. That's a concept, but it can be useful if you're stuck, or if you've been stuck for a long time on things. And then, okay, your attention's always going into things, and then to balance it, okay, go to the stillness. And in the end, you see them as equal, and the whole concept of stillness and sounds drops. It's game over.
As the sargadatta puts it, my silence sings, my emptiness is full. It can be... The opposites are in the one. Singing in silence and stillness. Fullness and emptiness. And it's like, it's kind of like, like, often you get that swinging of, you know, on the spiritual path, you have moments of what you think are, you know, blissful, happy feelings, stillness, or whatever it is, and then it goes, and then you have that... Do you know what I mean? But then you have the opposite, because if you still... Yeah. The only problem is having preference for one over the other. Yeah, exactly. Because then when the manic starts, if you're like, oh my God, where's my silence gone?
It's never there. It's always there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always there. But talk about your preference, one over the other. You just said earlier on that the taking attention from the chatter in the mind gives you more energy throughout the day, right? So you said that, and so there seems to be a difference. Because if your attention is always going... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get dizzy. Yeah, that's right. But here again... If your attention is still, you know, focused on something that's still... I would be saying that if you're taking your, you know, okay, preferences come up, all right, we'll let it go... But, actually, there's an energy that creates that distinction between sound and silence.
That takes effort. Like the creation of duality takes an energy. And then if the mind stops doing it, then effort. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, you're right. I like... It's like, you know the beauty about all this, love is you can't know what you don't know and like what you just said then like it was striking me that like the information like in this room and also like every day you know it'll come in a realization or it'll come in a conversation with somebody like the owners the milk bar and you'll say something and you go oh bing like that there's a growth in that I don't know what I'm trying to say but it's it's almost like the learning of you know you can't you can't learn how to be still no oh you can't you can't learn this you can't do anything to learn this but it can be just not happen it just happens it just happens yeah it just happens it's like that info will come from you or it will come from you or it'll come from it can come from anywhere or can come in a realization or I've got to say that you know reveals itself in many different ways yeah little revelations yeah yeah yeah yeah but it always has the same taste and it's already so it's not something coming into existence or something not something new it's a recognition or acknowledgement that it's already so yeah and all this activity of trying to get it and it's just noise and when you understand it it's like oh yeah it's yeah it's always been like that yeah yeah and and so that you can see why people talk about the experience of enlightenment but it's actually always been that way and it's just it's an old mission for many years I must admit I thought I was creating it creating it's always been that way so it doesn't matter what you thought no okay you just told you oh I know I'm not going to tell you that.
I know I'm not going to tell you that. No no no no well I mean it's Michael just said that you can't you can't get taught to the silence or whatever yeah you can't be taught that and I'm going to beg to differ a little bit here if you don't mind. Get up there get on your knees. Can I please say this that there was a time you know when when we learned You've got to face the back up come on. Which way is east? You know like there was a time when like like I said to you in day one you know like in the school of philosophy they taught you how to turn out to the senses and to rest in the listening and in resting in the listening and turning out to the senses that silence was apparent but that's what are we always you know like I only always thought it was just silence.
You know and and there was a peace there and a relaxation But never really thought it was any but anything much more than that, you know until until listening to your stuff and and when you see that's as far as you can go. That was a revelation in itself, but but as far as I'm thinking that that was taught turning out to the senses. But but as far as I'm I'm thinking that that was taught turning out to the senses that silence was apparent. to the senses I mean you do it in I don't know what they do in your passion up you know they sit there and turn out to the senses I think and they feel every sensation in the body they sit there for hours on end no no don't buy it and you're right you're right you see but there's the problem you see the problem is they buy into the they were preference for stillness over movement over sound yeah right but they don't realize that they're one in the same thing exactly all right all right that's right well but they that will that will give them a certain amount but there again like you said earlier on when the shit hits the fan all that sort of practice won't won't deal with the kind of the problem it depends on what's at the believed in the paradigm key and you piece the piece depends on certain conditions to set it up with an effort to make happen yes well then it's gonna that's right it's for words yeah how sophisticated or intricate all these techniques and methods are they address the basic problem which is the belief in this self-centered you know they can just go on and on with their philosophies and their techniques and their methods that's right but unless you look at that and that's and that's the beauty of Bob saying is it there were never was any separation to begin with it's still not from the fact you already are that you've got to stand behind the fan because when the shit hits you can and it's just what you just shared with us I think that have you got all of us so free to think in a way that's it's just a question you can answer and I think it is a lot of falsehood to do now that you've had some of these kind of things with you and yes we can do it you can do it but there's no reason to do it because we're just learning it and you got to follow the idea that the ability to do it is not something that we're not really interested in it has it's the desire to do but the the need is to be part of the way we are is that right so good but if you don't worry anymore do you get angry uh pattings you might call anger might appear I've never seen Gilbert get angry but I've seen Bob get angry that make no more in London one question one question please but before you put an enter the meeting one question put an end to the meeting one question silence to make silence is as much an object as authorities or as an object means I mean doesn't the silence isn't it doesn't appear in the emptiness also the silence you know what we've been talking about it's got no substance there's nothing it's an aspect of the constant by itself that's it that's a lot as big aspect of emptiness it comes silence can't stand without its dualistic opposite yeah so we're talking about dualism like black the type two ends of a stick silence is like so things they all appear in the emptiness so why do you say to go back to the emptiness because you say to go you know it's like you at mind off all these mixie thoughty stuff because I get out of the object arena and then go to the silence the silence is in the object area you know it isn't but if someone's really locked into the thinking bill it can be helpful even doing a practice we have it can be helpful but just that sounds like a practice or a technique.
Well sometimes practice is cameo. We're just talking about duality. Like old Mr. Gaddafi says, you're not to see, you're not to see and you're not to perceive. Well I have a practice of eating fruit every day and I think it's quite beneficial. Yeah, monkeys are pretty good. I have a practice of doing some exercise every day and it's quite good. But it's a little bit like saying, you know, be aware of something when Bob says, you know, are you unaware right now? Yeah, if you get that pointer. Are you unaware right now? I mean it's a really important one. He's not saying are you, you must be, and you say no, I'm aware.
He's not saying are you aware of the carpet. Why doesn't Bob just say that and nothing else? No, he's got a whole lot of pointers but you know you can't. Because not everyone gets that pointer. Yeah, but you don't want to be saying to Aldo, you just mood make yourself into silence and that's it because that sounds weird. I don't think he said that. I don't think he said that. He didn't say that? Okay. All right. Well I'm glad you understood something different to what I did. I mean you can't, you know, there's no techniques here. There's no, there's no, there's no methods. There are parent techniques.
You're not as clear as you thought you were then. No, I get your point. I get what you're saying. You can't mood make about this stuff. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's not a concept. It's like, it's like, uh, it's, the sounds that arise at the end of this, the one in the suns. Mind can't, the mind can't grasp it.
There's no thing, there's no thing that the mind can grasp. But Bob, Bob's, Bob also does say sometimes have an affectionate awareness of your, of your own being. And that, that can be construed as a, somewhat of a practice. Or the investigation, have a look, you know, whether, where does this entity exist. That's the, that's the, you know, that's the, that's the question, is there any anyway? Yeah. That's a practice. But who's the practicer? Who's practising it? Yeah, there's no practising it. Well, it's a spontaneous thing. Related to me trying to do it, yeah. You're brought to believe in entity. You're breathing right now, is that a practice?
Or is it spontaneously happening? Parts expanding in the drafting, is that a practice? Yeah, but that's not the stuff that's fouling up. That's not the stuff like... Those things that you refer to with the bodily functions, they don't... Unless it's sick, you know, they're not sort of... They happen naturally. Thinking happens naturally, yeah. Thinking happens naturally. The whole lot, as we're pointing out, all the appearance, all the thought, feeling, emotion, all the whole lot, the whole manifestation is happening spontaneously and naturally. Yeah, but isn't some of the thinking not useful to you? Isn't some... Didn't we just say earlier on that some of the thinking's not useful to you?
You know, like the stuff where the, you know... When it's... You're chasing your tail? When thought is split by relating to a believed thought-up entity, that's when it's not useful. That's when it's not useful. That's self-destructive. Yeah. Because the image, conceptual thought-up image you've got about yourself, if something doesn't fit it, gets angry, fearful, anxious, you know, you're not going to be able to do it. It doesn't... It doesn't... It can't work. You know, it doesn't... But something at once disappears, or... Again, it gets affected. The belief in it, you know, keeps it there, it keeps it angry, fearful, or all the rest of it.
So it's only a reference point that's going to have the emotions. Self-centeredness. Self... Emotions. Emotions, if you don't fixate on them, they just come and go. The good without anger just comes and then it's... It fades away and... If they're not related, they do come and go. And that's a really good point you made, although, that, you know, only a reference point can have an emotion. Hmm. You know, because it doesn't matter the square root whether a feeling is self-destructive or not self-destructive. They're both vibration. What's looking at it? Now, your question about only... So the only thing that can evaluate whether something's destructive or not destructive...
Is a reference point. Is a reference point. And it shouldn't be called an emotion. It should be called an I-motion. I know. I know. You've got it. You've got it. Now you've got it. Paint that. That's it. And without the I. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. I have motion. I should patent that. I figured that. Quick run of that motion. I'm going to hand it over now.