This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original (above).
Names? Ben, Mo, Liam, Stacey, Nelson, Rachel, David, David, David, Kelly, Brian You all know it's non-duality we point to You've all been here before you've all heard it quite a few times Are you freezing? Yeah, it's cold tonight No, this is good mate It's all right? Yeah, yeah, thank you Thanks very much Now if you understand the term non-duality, one without a second You must realise there's nothing you'll ever get And nothing anyone can ever give you Because if it's one without a second you must be already that It hasn't been cognised, recognised or understood or heard of Purely and simply because of the conditioned beliefs we've taken On board and haven't looked into But if you've read this stuff and know a bit about it You'll...
Not all of them point to it directly And the only reason anyone would ever do that is because they don't fully understand it themselves If it's recognised how could you not talk about it? So we point to that non-duality And ask it to look along the lines we point to And see it for yourself And you must realise one If you're looking for one There can't be anything simpler than one So it's not something hard to get Where you get the idea it's going to take many, many years Search, solid-searching Recognising And if you've been doing that You'll probably realise or recognise All you've found in that is the many Not the one And that's the only thing That's the only thing Not the one Because it keeps multiplying Into the next one, then one after, then one after that and all the rest of it And we've been to it Closely And one of the sections in one of the Buddha's texts They put it quite simply where they say it's Rest in the uncontrived singularity And that's what non-duality or oneness is A singularity, not two And the dualism starts from The idea or concept of me The belief in me A separate entity, an individual A person, an ego And if that is the reference point That's what we're constantly relating to You're not going to recognise Your true nature Until you get that Believed in me Out of the road See it for what it is A total fiction So whatever that's hanging around All sorts of things are going to continue to come up And seemingly And seemingly obscure it They call it the natural state And you can get many, many clues from nature Because nature is always functioning From that non-dual point There are no reference points or egos Or any static point Or any self-nature Anywhere, stand on its own Anywhere in nature It's always the one But you look in nature and you see it's always Expressing as duality It's a dualistic manifestation And you've got to understand and recognise There couldn't be a manifestation If it didn't seemingly express dualistically Look at the simplicity of that Could there be day without night Or silence without sound Or movement without stillness You realise there couldn't be any of these things If it didn't vibrate dualistically But in that dualistic manifestation When you look into it closely You'll see there's nothing that is actually separate Though it appears as separate It's not Can you separate the earth from the sky Can you take the sun out of space Or separate it from space Can you take the water out of the river What would it be in So it's a dualistic manifestation For any appearance Or any manifestation to be there It's got a pattern dualistic Look into this body Body made up of elements Air, earth, fire, water, space And we believe we're a separate entity That's individual But look at that If you take those elements out of this body Wouldn't it fall apart Could you live without the air Can the body live without the water Can you live off the earth Or can you get out of space Look at it and see the simplicity of all those things And recognise that all your problems Look at the mind even The mind constantly vibrating in the dualistic locus With the words we've acquired Or put upon it And see it's either past or future Pleasant or painful Happy, sad, loving, hating Positive, negative, negative It's always mechanically functioning In relation to those labels So the manifestation is a dualistic manifestation It couldn't be any other way But the ancients knew that years ago And they called it Maya or illusion They pointed out that It was an illusory manifestation And you see that if you look at it Because you realise this manifestation is transient It's constantly changing And that one essence That is the base of it all Is the actuality It doesn't divide It doesn't separate It's always and ever the base of the oneness Yet it has no shape, no form No pattern, no beginning No end, no birth, no death But it cannot be negated It is a totality Yet it is no thing But all the seeming things Appear in that no thing Can something come from nothing?
Can something come from no thing? You must recognise, realise Something cannot come from nothing So all this manifestation That's appearing as things In reality is nothing other than the truth In reality is nothing other than that no thing And all the seekers, searchers, saints, saviours and seers Down through the ages That have looked into this stuff And appeared to have got this and attained that None of them have again ever gone beyond no thing And they all appeared out of that no thing So you realise there's no big search Nothing to really Some great state or position to look for Change for Just we recognise that No thing or the emptiness Of everything It says in that Heng Shing Wing Emptiness here, emptiness there Yet the infinite universe stands ever before your eyes It doesn't mean to say it's just a blank being empty This means this infinite What you're seeing right now Standing right before your eyes But it's still the emptiness Buddha told you that when he said Cognising emptiness And emptiness is fused with knowing or intelligence It's another word for cognising When we say cognising Emptiness We think we are cognising the emptiness We look at the emptiness It's not that It's the emptiness of self That's doing the cognising And all these patterns, shapes and forms Are expressions of that emptiness And that emptiness is fused It's a fuse with an intelligence It's not just a vacuum or a void It's an intelligent energy A knowingness Intelligence is another word for intelligence is knowing Or cognising Or awareing Different labels we put on Put these different labels And then we go searching for the word or the label So when you're looking for a word or a label You've made an object of it But what you are You don't have to objectivise You have to have a look Instead of looking for awareness Just recognise Is anyone unaware right now?
Realise you're not unaware And if you're not unaware What must you be? You must be aware Sitting here right now And hearing that And recognise Yes I'm not unaware I'm aware What do you have to do about it? You have to go on a retreat Or a big meditation Or read a book Or do anything Or just recognise what's with you right now What you are right now Relax into it Rest in it Not contriving it Into some shape or form or pattern Leaving it in its singularity And we've got this idea That we could Open the telephone box You've got to stay in there You think you're going to stay there forever But you think you can't do anything without But the doing happens Spontaneously and naturally So sitting here resting in that Thoughts, feelings, emotions Insights or whatever like intuition All these things will come up Activities The patterning of that intelligence Will express As it has done And you must realise that If you look back into your life too How back before you could reason What were you doing about it then?
What were you doing about it in the womb? And intelligence, energy was growing that pattern And Christ told you that Down through the ages and pointed out And he says take no thought for your life What you shall eat, what you shall wear What you shall do Consider the birds in the field He says they Sow not or reap not And gather not into barns The lilies in the field Even Solomon and all his glory Was not arrayed like one of these But Solomon could get all the natural colours And beauty of the lilies in the field And he says which of you by taking thought Can add one cubit to his statue?
You can't make yourselves an inch taller By thinking about it And look at those things And see that this thought That we put so much value on Is a very useful instrument But it is self-destructive Look into your life and see If you're feeling anxious You're feeling fearful If you're feeling unhappy or depressed What makes it, comes out of it? Isn't it the label you've learnt and put on it? Oh I'm fearful or I'm anxious What if you haven't got that label And you're seeing what's coming up That sensation that's coming up now As it's fresh in you What would you call it then? If you hadn't had a label to put on it You'd look at it closely Instead of going into the old label That's made up from the past And immediately laden yourself down With all the previous sensations that have gone on with it You'd look closely into it Fresh and new And it mightn't be what you'd call anxiety If you're seeing it fresh and new It mightn't be what you'd call for you You might have to find another label But it would be free to move on If you're not attaching the old label And then they've gone to it These things need to be looked at So I won't ramble on anymore We'll just get into it And tell us all about it People in this room know all about it We've been coming here long enough to have a taste And the other night There's some really good stuff coming out People have opened up A lot of people sit here half the night Without saying anything And you won't say anything Unless you start checking in And have the confidence and courage to say What you've understood Or what you haven't understood And somebody might be able to Clear it up a little bit more And make it easier to see Because it's all in one essence It's appearing, patterning, shaping and forming As everything There is nobody separate from you That you might think is smarter than you Or knows less Knows less than you Everybody in this room will have a concept about you And you have a concept about yourself If you ask yourself which concept would be right You must realise that there's no concept A concept is only a thought construct A word construct That's all a concept is And there's no concept From that point you must realise That there's nobody in this room That's superior to you Nobody inferior to you So why could you care less What anybody thinks about you Or says about you Because what they think or say about you Is only a conceptual image that they've got And it's not the truth And the concept you've got about yourself Is not the truth And you realise that That concept is stopping you From asking questions and looking into them So away you go Get into it The word human condition Is quite telling as well isn't it Is it Well human condition Well it's all the labels aren't it There's something there before you can call it a human condition So Yeah That mustn't have any condition And look at that word conditioning If you ask yourself what conditioning is there right now If I don't think about it Then you realise you can't If you're not thinking about it You can't say there's any conditioning there It's all It's the same as if you say What's wrong with right now If I don't think about it Pause the thought You can't say there's anything right or wrong about it Is there a past if I don't think about it And you can't say there's a past or a future So surely you'd learn from that That the problem is thinking And thinking is not a problem if it's understood Something that I've really noticed today walking around Is Is just how clear everything is Since you pointed out what you pointed out And yet there was this background Of the way you think about it And you're not thinking about it There's this background of thinking always there And what I've realised today Has really wrapped it all up Because it's almost as if thinking You're the clear space, it's obvious And then there's this background of thinking Happening all the time That appears to want to take you away from it And there's this sort of fascination with it And I've realised today it's just like It's like a motor that's in idle And it's just coughing up It's like a little computer just generating thoughts Little suggestions and thoughts Completely without any reason or meaning And then so I thought okay well First of all I was trying to deal with each single thing coming up And getting caught up in it And taking you away from the clear space And then I thought well I'll just sort of throw it a stick Set it a task It's almost as if it just wants something to solve So I just said well just go away and solve a problem Find, you know, if there's a separate entity go and find it And it just sort of went like okay right And it's off But not noisily It just quietly just went away And for an hour I didn't even Wasn't even aware of it at all Just completely back with the space So everything you've said You know about thought just seeming to obscure What's just naturally, purely, clearly there Has just It's so true It's been so true I'm just so grateful Just as well you didn't tell me Today I know, I know By a particular insight that might have come up I know, yeah So it works itself out then And also how suddenly your whole perception of the world changes You know, you're sitting on the tram And three days ago I was sitting on the tram And there's me and I end here And there's another person and they start there and end there And they have thoughts and what do they think about you And then blah blah blah blah blah And then now it's just not like that at all There's no people There's no people on the tram And when I sat down straight next to somebody They stopped immediately Now if that had been three days ago If they'd moved because of me The thoughts that'll occur, nothing Not interested You know, I didn't have to try and not be interested It's just no interest whatsoever It's like being in a movie It's amazing Well the only thing that actually changes Is how the self-conscious aspect goes From what I can tell Or the memory, you know And that's it That's actually it That's the only thing that actually changes But it's massive It's not actually That's the funny thing about How the universe seems to work And its simplicity and its amazement It's a spontaneous activity, you know Which always has been anyway Lift spontaneously Without trying to alter it, modify it, correct it You know It functions naturally by itself The attempt to see any of these perspectives Has only ever made it worse And more difficult And it can be explained as clearly as As you explain it, which is as clear as can be And yet the attempt to see it like that Makes it worse Has always made it worse Until It's all still true But you're not having to try to do it Yeah See, it's one of those Well, it's tempting all the trying going on Yeah You're relating You've got to try to relate it to something I mean, I've had the theory down for donkey's years I understood all the theory But it's not until that final little click Like, okay And then all of it's still true And yet it's naturally true and obvious Just, you know, how did I miss that?
It's amazing Okay, the seeing The seeing, but not the seeing That's it, isn't it? It's like, the seeing is conceptual But seeing isn't You can't remove it Ever You know, like Bob says in Deep Sleep Where is it? If the truth's all If you want to call it truth or whatever If it's always so Where is it? Where's all this stuff that People get caught up in in Deep Sleep? Mm-hmm Because that's the base The most stripped down it can be there And then it all comes when you wake up And that's just the story, isn't it? Once the story's gone It's just pretty persistent Yeah, yeah, it takes a while You've got to, I think, really want it That's the thing Like you say, you can be very intellectual about it And not realise that it's still Or realise that it's still just the mind Grasping or holding something Mm-hmm Any stance I mean, you look at the human race It's a complete walking contradiction You know, you don't have to look far out of your life To see that And Yeah, unless you're really at the base Or at the source of it Then It's always going to be there And it's going to pattern that way You know And as soon as you take a stance You're always going to have the opposition Come up Because that's the nature You know, and Yeah, there has to be You know, complete I don't know how you want to call it A surrender or whatever But something clicks And you've got no say in that either When it happens Climb It just happens however it happens And once it's happened enough You can't ever really go back to the old The old way of being anymore It's like the paste is out of the tube You can't put it back in there Yeah Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah Yeah Want to Turn Turn the head up Anyone turn white I will Good So your energy bill's off Yeah You mean off Off Off Are you anticipating anyone asking you a question?
No Are you anticipating anyone asking you a question? No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No So That's one That's one I mean I can go on any one part So Yeah but So That That's It's It's Kind of Very Kind of I've heard about something where there are like unconscious thoughts like a binding effect between certain feelings say and thoughts and then the idea of when that, say you were talking about anxiety before, it's like there's like a binding between these habitual thoughts where it says this is a problem or that is the way so therefore you're not arrived the way you need to be and like sort of ideas of comparison about like oh I should be way more at ease or like feel different somehow so therefore I'm not where I should be and like there's some salvation in the future, just like a vague idea of that and that just seems like...
I see through that and see how futile that is, it just happens and there's nothing I can really do. So that's that. Well if you say you're looking for salvation in the future and you reckon you can see that that's not the answer, where are you going to look then? There's nowhere to look but it's just like... Well when you sit and watch you'll see what comes up, what the next thought comes up. Yeah, it tends to be like along those lines. And if you say it's the same one, well pull that up too. Yeah. And all that stuff's coming from the perspective of an assumed person.
Yeah, so that's where they're all coming from, from it. None of those guys have investigated to see, you know. None of them have? None of them have investigated to see whether there's someone there. They're all... The thoughts? Well no, the identity. The identity. They all don't, they all identify with the body as they take that to be the real, you know. The thought takes it to be the real? Yeah, or whatever, but that's... they take that... It's kind of implicit, you know, that there's like an entity that will reach something. I think... That there's an entity there. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's taken, you know, that's what's taken to be true.
So the, you know, the root hasn't been... Yeah, I agree. So I mean all of it, until that's sent through... Yeah. ...then it doesn't really matter what cerebral sort of escapades you go on. You can, you can do that for eternity. Sort of, I mean that wasn't so much cerebral, that's just like an analysis of... Oh okay, how it'll enter intellectual whatever. It's just the thought, isn't it? I mean, but it seems to have an emotional charge, like, so that's what I'm looking into. Yeah, I guess it's the, like, coming back to that recognition. That the thought can be there and could generate an emotional charge or it can be there and not.
Or it can be there and make you feel good even if it's negative. Like it's just about... Yeah. ...that innate intelligence can recognise something and be overjoyed by the fact that there's a negative thought because the negative thought itself doesn't cause harm because obviously whatever it is that knows is, is capable of making anything beneficial I guess is the way I see it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's affecting my actions, which make me feel worse, which are affecting my actions. And so this self-perpetuating cycle. But if it's just like, oh, those thoughts are coming up and you're not believing in them, then you're cutting that cycle right away. Yeah, that's right. So, but I was gonna say to you, Bob, I come here and I come thinking I might ask something, but usually thoughts come and they just fall away a lot more quickly when I'm here. So that's why I don't ask as much. And again, like you were saying, like how it all works or in theory, that's sort of in the head a lot, you know, but it doesn't seem so useful always talking about that element of, I can ask you about to explain to me the fact that there's no duration, no time, no space and all of this sort of thing, because it interests me, but I know it in my head.
You know, I can go, oh yeah, and this is how this works, but whether or not that makes a difference is not really up to anyone here. So it feels like I know a lot of this stuff and different experiences come and go, but I kinda give up on asking or trying to achieve anything with my thoughts. So it gets difficult coming here in, if I try and, I'd be fabricating something, you know, if I try and get something out of coming here. All right. Well, tell me that. Tell us what you've understood, that's the point. Well, I guess... Other people might want to hear that.
Oh, there's... I guess there's lots of elements to it. I think one of the biggest things is recognising that the thoughts that come, the cycles that they present, they're recognising they're only... they only have any effect if they're believed in and if they're fed or perpetuated. So if the thoughts come up and you see them, then it's just stuff happening. There's no one there that's got control. And so that automatically starts to break the back of the ego or whatever you want to call it. And that's how we are. But also one thing that's really important is there's times when I feel kind of like more like, oh, there's something happening.
Oh, there's something happening. This is clear or that's clear. And learning that that's more dialogue than just... So there's just, I guess, there is something happening. There's something changing inside. But it's not something to look for. It's not something to... You don't lift weights or anything with your mind. It's just something that the more you're exposed to it, the more it kind of happens on its own. And clarity is not something to look for either. It's something that might come or go, but it's not something to value above any other experience because that's just another... cycle or supposed trap. But that's also nonsense. Well, you say when thoughts come up, who do they come up to?
Do you look for that? Well, I guess they don't actually come up to anyone. I think that's a big thing to me because I still feel like, even though I know there's not a self, there's still an... Most of the time there's still an experience of someone experiencing something. Well, that's why you need to look into it because that's the cause of all your problems. You're not going to break the back of your ego. You're going to break the back of something that doesn't exist. You're trying to break the back of the ego. How can you do that? See who it's coming up to. You've heard this often enough.
Go into it and really have a look. But I mean, when I go into it and have a look and I see more clearly, that goes away. So I've stopped looking for that as well. I've stopped looking for... It's kind of like there's times where something really changes, but it's not something I can... Well, is there somebody looking? No. Or is it pure seeing? I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I think the experience and the experiencer, you know, being in a space where you feel where there's no... Well, there is no experiencer all the time, but there's a very strong kind of gross feeling as though there's an experiencer.
But that's very different to really seeing. All right. Well, have a look and see. Who is the experiencer? If there's a feeling of an experiencer, who is it? Who is the experiencer? Well, there's not one, because there's not a centre to any of it. There's nothing... Are you sure of that, or are you just mouthing those words? Well, intellectually, I can see that there's not, and some experiences have shown me that there's not really anyone there, but I can't... Right now, I can't say that I can really clearly see. But even talking like this is really weird, because it's kind of counterintuitive as well, so...
Well, it won't be if you... Who's talking? See, I can see how silly it sounds, but... Yeah, but see, is there an experiencer there? What shape has that experiencer got? Well, it's got the shape, the appearance of... The shape or appearance of what? Just what it's currently appearing as. What's it... Where's it centred? Where's it started? How long is it? How thin is it? How wide is it? Well, yeah, no, you can't... Because as soon as you try and describe it, it's changed into something else, and it doesn't have any centre to it, so... Or a circumference either, so... Well, if it doesn't have any centre or circumference, what shape can it have?
What you've just said. Well, it can't have a shape. Well, right. If it can't have a shape, it hasn't got a centre or a circumference. Is it there? Is there anything there without any substance or circumference? Is there anything at all, you can say? No. No? No. What are you formulating? You're just formulating, adding a mental concept that you believe is there. There's nothing there substantially, is there? Yeah, but I still... There, see what I mean? There but I still. Instead of sitting with that... There's nothing there, right? No, this is the thing. Nothing there, there but still. You've got to formulate another concept. There's nothing there, full stop.
Just sit with that for a while, get the taste of that and realise it's a fact. There is nothing there that has any substance or any independent nature. You pause a thought. What can you say without a thought? There's nothing there to say, you know. But a thought will come up, another thought will come up. You can't pause a thought forever. You can't pause a thought at all as that entity. The intelligence tells you to stop for a while, you know. Liam, just a second ago you said, I see that when you... When the thoughts come up, I don't give it any energy, it just withers away, right?
So what Bob just said just now, you saw for a split moment there, you recognise that there's nothing there, there's no entity there, there's no person there. But instead of just sitting with that recognition and just being with that and seeing what that really is, immediately the mind, the thought comes up, yeah, but... And then some other little subtle concept comes up and then you're immediately grabbing hold of it, which is why you're saying, yeah, but still. That's where the yeah, but still comes from because rather than just staying with that immediate recognition of nothing, that there is nothing, that Bob just pointed out, a concept immediately pops up.
Yeah. And very quickly without even you realising it, you're grabbing it and you're holding onto it and you're like, okay, yeah, but still. And bang, another tangent, another tangent. See, I know this too. I know the story, I know what's happening, I know how it works and how it keeps itself going, but it's still happening. And I don't know how to say that other than say, but it's still happening, the concept is still going, the sense of self still goes. There's been experiences and gaps and, oh, yeah, that's what's happening, and really seeing, whatever that means. And then it's hard to talk about it because it feels very contrived because clearly, in terms of the conceptualisation, I can see clearly that there's nothing there and various experiences have verified that.
So it gets really convoluted to talk about it because there's still something going but I still can't see it, but then I can. So it's very... You see, inheritance, in what you're saying, is an expectation. Yeah, exactly. That's right too. That's part of what happens too. Yeah, an expectation of. An expectation is projection into future, into imagination. Yeah, so it's, again... So it's a bind of comparing. You're comparing and contrasting. You're comparing this product that is learnt from reading spiritual books, watching YouTube clips or whatever, and from imagination, and it's this notion of enlightenment or whatever, understanding whatever it might be. Yeah, no, I don't think I'm projecting an idea about something.
Let me finish. Yeah. Let me finish. When we have this goal that we're after, there's a subtlety in that measuring, I don't have it, before you know it, you're not going to have it. Before you said something about sometimes there's not clarity. You know, in actual fact there is only clarity. That's all there is. There is only clarity. And all that's happening is the attention is running into the narrative. Yeah, exactly. The conceptual story. And see, I know all this. I know that that's right, but there's still white box there. Yeah, but it's not... But there you go again, but still. Just, can you... Yeah, but you've said, I'm still not saying, and I've agreed...
I didn't say it. I'm saying it. Liam, as soon as we say, I know, it puts a full stop. It stops. There's no openness. If you're speaking to somebody and they're, yeah, I know, yeah, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. They're not open. They're totally closed. It's like this. You come to a place like this, and it's a bit like you go to woodworking classes, right? You go to woodworking classes and you're going to learn, beginner's class, you're going to learn how to do woodworking. So when you go there, you're totally open. When the teacher says, okay, this is what these chisels are for, this is how we use them, you just take it on board and you do exactly as you're told, exactly as you're being shown.
You don't go, oh, well, I've heard, actually, some people prefer a different sort of chisel. Now, I wouldn't sharpen it like... I actually disagree with that analogy, but that's okay. I think it's, like, I don't feel like I'm coming... Shut up. Shut up. You come to a place like this... No, I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't agree with this idea. Bob's asking us to contribute. I'm here to share and say what's actually happening for me. If I say no or but, I'm happy with this. I think we're all invited to share. It's not an exclusive invitation to you, mate. No, absolutely not. And I'm happy for anyone to say anything.
Well, listen, while you hold that stance, you will never see anything because you're filling it up with so much stuff, you're not open to hear what's being said to you. So good luck. You're entitled to your conceived idea of me. I mean, everyone's got this conception of everyone else, so fair enough. I think the dilemma in a way, or the apparent dilemma, is, like, that there is a kind of seeing that there is no volition. And so you can't really choose what you believe or not, like, in a way, as well. Like, that can just play out and be suckered into it until you're not, like, and it's hard not to be.
That's what I find it. Well, there's no stance with it. I think if anyone ever tries to hold a stance to what this is... Yeah. ...automatically, you're going to have your stuff. Because, you know, that's a... Any conceptual stance you make, you're going to have something come up in opposition or something to spin you off that axis, because you're not with the immediacy, because immediacy is non-conceptual. And, you know, even when you're going on with all that stuff, you're still aware the whole time, saying, I know I'm doing this, I know... So what's that that knows? Yeah, yeah, yes. I mean, it's not like there's anything right or wrong about what's even actually happening now.
Whether there's an argument going on or whatever, that's just what's going on, because there's just awareness there, and that's how it's... how it's patterning. And, you know, that's it. I mean... Gabriel, you said there's no volition. There's plenty of volition, but there's no personal volition. That's the difference. And it's attributed to a person. Mm. When you say there's no volition, you think you're going to do something. When you say there's no volition, you think you're going to do... Nothing's going to happen, you know? I think that is, like, not being serious enough when you say to yourself, there's no volition, so I will not look for anything, right?
That's right, yeah. I will go to a friend, whatever. That's just like staying in the phone box, you know? It's like an excuse. Yeah. No personal volition. Mm. I guess, I mean, there's no... Like, I can't choose my next thought, so in that sense there's no volition. I can't choose what I believe, in that sense there's no volition. So does that mean to say that, what, there'll be no thoughts come up? Or no seeming choices made? No, not at all. And there again, look into what it thinks is having the thought. Or having the volition. Yeah, that's the kind of sticky, like... Get that out of the way, and you'll see it's just all spontaneous, natural emotion.
Yeah, sure. I mean, it's Marx, you know, Dr. Marx, his, like, for some reason, the thing I always remember that he says is like, the thing with his hands is just like two... Which? The thing with, like, a thought being tied up to the idea of the thinker, and it's just like one and the same movement. And, um... Yeah, there's, I don't know, there's intermittent clarity on that, but then most of the time it's just like, I can't help but think there is someone thinking. Is that correct? See, I can relate to that. That's a really... Up until, like, three years ago, that's... I've got 25 years of that.
Totally. Like, you've read that the thinker is contained in the thought, and you get it, and you see it sometimes, and you can't see it some other times. Yeah. But then it becomes like a trick, like a game, how do I get it, how do I get it so I can see that the thinker is the thought? Right. But for me, and I'm just speaking about a very recent experience of just feeling like, all this is over now, forever, is that you can only argue about the concepts, and you can only argue about the thoughts about it all, and the history and all the rest of it, but it's all about the space, it's all about the oneness, which is just so blatantly obvious.
And it's all about that. So, you can think and think and think and read and read and read and compare and everything, and believe me, I've done that for so, so long, and it doesn't get anyone anywhere. Sure. And it's always well saying, well, because of this and that, it's just more and more bullshit. All it is, there's a space, and you just rest in the space, and everything is clear from there. You can see the thoughts, and the fact that the thinker rises with the thought, really simply from the space. I mean, I don't know if you've looked at Douglas Harding or anything like that, but I mean, Douglas Harding, you do the point, and this is it.
There's the world, and there's the space. That's it. That's the space. That's it. That's it. There's no more to it. I mean, that is it. You know, you can go. You can give all your books to the charity. That's it. That's the space. And Bob's put it out to me that that is it. That is it. There's no more to it. There's no further levels. There's nothing to get. There's no sort of like alarm bells to go off. That's the space. And from there, you can see all the other stuff, and all the other stuff just is, oh, okay, and it's all right. That's that.
And that's what that meant. You can go read all the other books. You can read them all again, and you can go, oh, I'll get them all now. Yeah. I mean, you get them all. You know, I've read books. I read Christian Reality for 10 years. Yeah. 10 years. And I didn't get it. Yeah. And then you point back, and there's a space. And that's what you are. You go and look at the books. That's what he's all about. Yeah. That's it. It's nothing. So from thinking, from concepts, from all that stuff, it's just adding to this fucking ball of bullshit that's rolling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right. And it's just, oh, man, is it this? Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, it's this. Oh, no, I think I've just lined things up. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's all bollocks. There's a space. It's what you are. That's the end of that. The end of the story. You can read all the books, you know, whatever, for fun or whatever. Can you entertain my, like, complete bullshit objection? Not objection, but like my, like, birth. There's nothing to recognise whatsoever. Okay, I can see that space, totally aware of it.
So what's the difference between Bob and, like, anyone on the street? Like, why don't I ask him for his safety? Nothing. There's nothing. Well, I mean, they'll probably tell you about something else, like there might be a driver or a bin man or a lawyer, and they'll tell you about that sort of thing. But the point, what Bob pointed out to me this week is that I've been pointing and doing all that, and it's really helped, like, over the last few years since I discovered pointing. You know, it's alleviated a lot of stuff. Yeah. But I still thought that the space was here. It was contained here.
Right. Right. But it's not. Okay. But, I know, people have turned to me really, really clearly that the space here is the same as the space here. It's the same as the space there. Okay. It's the same space. The space is aware. That's it. It's not your space. It's not my space. It's just space. It's the space that's aware. You're not aware. So your ears are connected to your brain, and they're doing the mechanics of hearing, but you're not hearing. The space is hearing. Right, okay. So it's the space that's hearing here, hearing there. There's no barriers. Yeah. There's just space. Okay. And the space is aware.
And that's it. it that's the end of it cause all it is it's cool as fuck obviously because suddenly everything just falls away nothing and then thoughts come up rather look you know I've had thoughts today and I've had them and I got three days ago today right the same thought come up and I just went well that's a crock of shit because it obviously is just obviously is without any stickiness whatsoever there's a space it's not yours it's not mine it's everywhere the universe is in it it's through everything this appears in the space this is the space forming into a thing even that's a concept but the facts the matter is you look back there's a space it's it's pervading everything no barriers yes I like that's it is it dawning like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's it I'm nice to it really I don't think it's a book yeah he said he said it to me he said no one has ever gone beyond nothing this is the nothing this is actually it and nobody has ever gone beyond that because there isn't anybody anyway which is all conceptual but there isn't anybody yes this space animating everything no one's ever gone beyond that I think like that's like that that ball of concepts and stuff like that like Aziz was I'm sure they are at the point and stuff it's like is that point of comparison and it's like yeah totally recognises the space yeah I feel like more freaked out now but I don't think there is no one here anymore and again that is a word I'm given on sort of anything yeah but okay how can it all yeah so just totally irogin yeah it's just a thought but fuck work that's me on day one thought has no power whatsoever and that's true it's completely powerless and yeah you get some power Wow here you go wide off by everything and get another concept of our life that's a dollar big coin absolutely amazing yeah some above and if we did we would have what will make the comp Nada in solidarity yeah I'll give it some power wow yeah you go wild off everything until we get another concept wow wow that's that one and you're off and you can spend your whole life in that yeah and i have more than half of it this is complete waste of time yeah it's deeply unfulfilling but it's totally it's somehow like it's some kind of magnetic porn yeah yeah yeah see because in it it seems like you said before about the thing of being in the thought it seems to have like it's where the hat's saying follow me on it and that's for that it's spotless yeah it's total bollocks yes sir it's total bollocks constructed five days anyway yeah worth the flying ball when you spoke from that in the beginning when you started expressing your experience you know i could sense you're coming from that space um it was permeating even when you were when you were um talking about it and in my own experience um i guess i had an experience where where felt as though the ego sort of dropped away and it was for a short period of time um and in that time it was dramatic it was you know fearful and ecstatic and and everything but i became that space um on a deep sort of level and everything around me was the oneness was sort of experienced but that experience ended and the ego came back with a bit of a vengeance almost and said and created a sort of separation one of the idea or concept and i look at that pillow there and it's still separate and i know i've seen it as one but at the moment it's still separate and i haven't been able to sustain the experience that you're describing yourself yeah um and it's come come back in more clever cunning more sophisticated ways than before and it was like a window it's a dramatic window um but throughout that whole experience you're away yes even when it fell away and even when it came back otherwise you wouldn't be able to talk about it where did the experience take place outside of space couldn't take place outside of space could it it is the content of space like everything else space is no thing and all this content is content of space can something come from nothing it can't so all the content is is spice anyway appearing as on it see the mind when the mind comes back similar so it's like an idiot sitting next to you just talking no if i sat next to you look bananas are black and planes fly upside down you just say this is nonsense yeah not your own thoughts like yeah it's not even your own thoughts this is it you know this is what bob pointed out to me you don't know where they come from and you don't know where they go they're just out of nowhere and you think they're in my head they're in my head they're not in your head there's not they're not in your head yeah so you know you give them subtly this power and then they take you off like oh they're taking me away from things but they can't possibly take you away from what is running the entire universe it's totally unlikely really really unlikely there's a there's a space here now it's running the universe it is the universe including everything in here and there's an idiot saying words to you so you know which you know that they don't have the power to do that um so you know i mean i wouldn't dare give any advice whatsoever but i would say if you've got questions take them to bob right and ask them very directly and very very clearly because when you ask this man very direct quick clear questions then um things happen you know where i mean i understood all this about the space netting beforehand but there's something about just that like a click where it clicks over somehow when when i was talking to bob uh what was the question that i was trying to get about here you're trying to read all therier itself and you write it i'm sorry yeah what were you This whole space doesn't start, stop or anything.
It's aware. This space here is aware and it goes in. You're experiencing it, I'm experiencing it. It's amazingly true. Bizarre. I mean, we talk about awareness all the time, but we tend to reduce awareness to another concept and we actually turn it into a noun, as if it's something that needs to be grasped or found or located somewhere. Like it's a thing. But awareness is just aware-ing. It's being. It's a verb. And Nisargadatta says, seize being fascinated by the contents of your consciousness. Because everything that appears is only content. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, the body, the sensations, all the sights and sounds, it's all content.
But what's aware of the content? There's an awareness there of that content. Have a look at what that awareness is. Well, immediately the mind will say, well, I'm aware. But then what's aware of that thought? I'm aware. And go back further again and have a look and see. It's just nothing. The actual awareness is nothing. It's no thing. Space, as you were saying. See, I thought that the awareness was here, there was a void between here and someone else and then they had awareness. That's what I genuinely thought for 43 years. That's what I thought. I thought that too. Say that again. I thought that awareness was here, somehow in my head.
Oh, okay. Maybe just dripping out a little bit, just beyond the edges because I've read Douglas Harding. And then between here and here there was a void. There was a void everywhere. Cats, they've got awareness. Maybe frogs, possibly not. Frogs spawn. Maybe not amoeba. You draw your judgment, don't you? Cows, definitely. So I don't eat them. The next person, they've got awareness. But other than that it's a void. And that's what I thought. It's not that. It's aware. It's just the space. There's space, like awareness. And that's why I thought. There's space, like awareness. Bob said that a million times. I never heard it. Space, like awareness.
The space itself is aware. There's no barrier. There's no barriers whatsoever. You point back, there's space. It's the same space as here. It doesn't start and stop here. The same space. And it's aware. It's the space that's aware. That's what you pointed out to me, isn't it? Was it Mr. Gaddafi said that the mind is vast and infinite and the world is but a ripple on its surface? Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess like the waking state is like the tip of the iceberg, you know?
And the iceberg being a beingness which is completely unfathomable. Is this thing about like a thought giving, you know…the space is like the glassy essence. You know, Shakespeare describes it as the glassy essence. It's so palpable. It's so here. Why would you be interested in thoughts? you know thoughts are just dislike dead there's nothing to them they're just stories and concepts and memories and stuff but this classy essence this thing is right here now so present and it's like wow and then thoughts are like well you know we look to the children like me this concept is nothing you know why would you why would you let that take you away from this it's alive what do you say something about a tale told by an idiot didn't it yeah when we start talking signifying nothing and if you look when you look and see what that awareness is what that you know what that space is you look at where this you look at what it is that's actually aware of everything it's nothing and that no thing I mean that no thing is common to everyone if anyone does this and has a look and see what this awareness actually is and where this what is actually aware everyone's going to come back to the same point it's a point of nothing point of no thing and from that point of no thing which is essentially just it's it's it's that singularity this entire manifestation appears this duality appears out of that point of nothing point of no thing and you can see that for yourself by just going back and looking and seeing what is actually aware here what is this awareness and you recognize that it's nothing it's no thing and from that the whole the whole glorious manifestation appears with all this diversity and multiplicity all the manifestation is things you're all things things uh appearances only appear as something because something cannot come nothing from nothing so it's all the content of space space is no thing all this is the content of space appearing as other but still all no thing the pattern shapes and forms are appearance only appearance is that which seems to be so it only seems to be so and this is a phenomenal manifestation the definition of phenomena is that which appears to be pointing out to the whole manifestation is appearance only seeming to be so but it's nature its essence the glassy essence is that no thing that emptiness and that's why they call it ignorance not that we're dull or stupid that we focused into the appearance take the take the appearance to be real and it are ignoring our true nature the true nature is no thing but it only wants to be noted then so we take on the pattern shapes and forms but the energy of belief goes into them and keeps them seemingly going and all our problems come from that yeah that's the thing you've got to be very earnest and put it basically at the top of your list to want to know it because a lot of people will say oh they don't want to suffer but they'll happily hold on to it go all the way so you see the like so-called seeking movement the so-called like seeking movements I love it thought pattern is that like more an avoidance strategy than actually anything like because he said nobody wants to be nothing so like if there was a seeking towards it it's like that's actually trying to get away we tried we you know because of that sense of separation came upon it we feel incomplete you know not total so we told you know there's enlightenment or God or this that and that so we think we have to become to be filled total secure insecure involved with that separation acquire or get or become something yeah that's when the seeking comes seeking implies of something you haven't got but you will get it some future time so you got into the concept of time again you perform time you know he's not here now it's like free beer tomorrow when do you get the free beer free beer tomorrow never come yeah um I can report my thoughts because that's all I can do really as most like um I I'm put in mind of like certain just like double binds it's like I double bind like a kind of just like something hasn't quite been recognized and if I stop trying to recognize it then it would be recognized like just like a weird little insane but that's just appearing I suppose but at the same time it's like but I don't feel rested if you've understood what we're talking about it's non-duality how could you say that it's something that hasn't been recognized a lot of what people say in these meetings and stuff it's like if something was recognized it's not like that isn't implied like it's like oh i thought this and this and then now i don't so that implies something's been really right books and non-formal religion and do all sorts of things are better don't they and people say they say this day that yeah but i mean i i believe i think i think they had something hard-spinning and that's understandable too because nobody can give away what they haven't got have a look at some of these books you're best interested in all the rest and see it but they haven't got the direct truth there it goes on and on forever yeah yeah more like so i mean do you understand what i mean but but i mean do you sympathize like with the like the idea that there is an implication of there's something to recognize and then it's also at the same time there's nothing to recognize no i know i know that whether you know or not you already are there and that's the point of simple touche yeah i really empathize with what you're saying yeah i'll give you a theme have you read john wheeler yeah okay everything right okay i think pretty much everything in the world now cool john wheeler said this thing because everyone comes to him because i did this thing a few years ago when i was into this and i was like oh i can't do anything so i remember lying on my my bed and like well I can't literally can't do anything there's nothing to do so if I do nothing then maybe I'll get it yeah internalize the whole yeah it's nothing to do nothing to do then you're literally paralyzed by it yeah but then John Wheeler when asked the question John Wheeler would say well there is something to do of course there is yeah of course there's something to do there's to find out your true nature yeah that's where the satisfaction comes and you must go about doing that and people say oh well there's no one to do it you know which is a mental if you feel I mean if I said you know go and wash your car you would say well there's no one to do it fucking car yeah it's really straightforward so it's straightforward but then you can instruct someone how to wash their car but then often it's just like well go and look and find out investigate but it's like yeah well how yeah well this is the thing though but I mean this is the thing it's unique for everybody so you have to go find out what your own particular little weirdnesses are and hang-ups are and thought hmm how you've been brought up and all this sort of thoughts of the stopping you just seeing directly and clearly what's going on which is really straightforward yeah so there's a whole little power barriers between that and that apparently you know so go and find out what that is yeah I am I'm looking at something like this stuff I think I mentioned at the start like the kind of what is sometimes called like a velcro effect in like according to certain people it's like just like a unconscious kind of association of thoughts and feelings and like these kind of loop like kind of yeah you can call I don't know in psychology but call a complex or something like that and I something like that and I feel like that maybe is like something that is somehow just like apparently just like I don't know I could just tell you that they're not and you will get no satisfaction by solving those riddles or you'll end up is with a person with loads of riddles solved not knowing what's going on but it's I mean it's like it's non-jewelry inquiry and you did say like find out your own idiosyncrasies and look into that yeah but only to discount them completely well that's the point yeah it's called it's called the unfindable and so it's like basically looking into it with the express purpose of finding that it's not like like emptiness teachings in Buddhism okay I think there can be a trap because the exploration in thinking just kicks up more stuff yeah it's like you're struggling in the conceptual mud and in its struggle we just go deeper maybe but I mean it's you know I'm trying to analyze it you're not like going that thought means that and that and that and that because you my childhood but you go like it's sort oflla it's like it's psychological analysis it's literally just like unpicking or like like Undoing this effect whereas like the thinking is endless absolutely it just what happens the thought arises and we jump on it and head off a branch line and we have thought rise and thunderize it's thought rise and fall we've stop躍 So, and it just continues to branch off like a tree.
Yeah, exactly. And it's endless. Yeah. Because like, forget it. Forget the thinking. You cannot understand this, this thinking, because it's prior to the thinking. Yeah, exactly. Prior to thinking. And what you are is what you're looking for. You know, when they say, that thou art, you are that, they don't mean, well, if you work hard, you really sort this thinking stuff out, then you'll get to it, or maybe in the future if you get lucky. No. That's a fact. As you are now, perfectly, there is nothing wrong, nothing to be repaired, nothing to be sorted out. Start from that fact, and everything that's arising is the thatness playing out and expressing as, I thought, oh, I've got it, I haven't got it, or whatever else.
It's just playing. It's traffic. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing. The thinking stuff is just like the traffic. Not your traffic, not your thinking. And that me notion that arises is always an afterthought. Thinking arises, and very quickly after that, the me notion, which is just another thought, appropriates. Yeah. It takes ownership of it. So, yeah. See that that me thought is just another thought that's arising. Yeah. And it's not your me thought, and it's not your thinking. It's just passing traffic. Just let it go. Mm-hmm. Because when we engage and we attempt to stop or change or alter or modify. Yeah, that's true. We're projecting energy into it.
Mm. And it just, you know, it kicks along. Yeah. No, it's only a bit of a small part. So that all of that that's arising is perfectly that as it is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And as Bob said before, the dog chained quite. Whatever appears, let it rest. Yeah. And that's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. That's the thing. Let it rest in its uncontrolled singularity. So the thought, I've got it, I haven't got it, or whatever else, things have to be sorted out or whatever it might be.
Mm. There's a thought arising. Let it go. Not your thought. Mm. The thought of a me notion, this thing that has to be unpicked or sorted out, it's just the me notion playing out as whatever story's attached to it in that moment. Mm. Again, like the traffic. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. Let me keep it light. Let me be free to pass. Let me be free to flow. Because it is that that-ness, as you are perfectly that that-ness already. Yeah. And the words are net-rit to build on what Kellyani was saying, which was very clear, but add to it your notions and asking Bog for sympathy, and what you're trying to say, and the background hum and the foreground hum and the pillow we've discussed and that's all the singularity, that's the whole, that's the oneness.
You are the oneness. The oneness is there, it's just all this singularity, you know, there's so many words for it. It's everything, it's just this. There's no becoming, it's just this which is spontaneous. You can't go anywhere really if you settle with that notion that it's just spontaneous. Even any thought that you might be having right now and thinking what the hell is Bill talking about, that is it also. That's... That's the intelligence. That's the oneness. That's the totality and that's it. It's right here, right now and it can't be anywhere else. Can't be five seconds ago, it can't be five seconds into the future.
It's right here and right now. And even that concept of now which is a bit wacky because you can't dwell in it. Yeah, that's a bit... You can understand that that spontaneity is always here. Yeah. But the now is immeasurable which gives it, which makes it spontaneous. Comparison thing, I think that's the... It's something that I'm really struggling with, like what you were talking about as well. You remember those moments of freedom, of that open-hearted like explosion or whatever. And then you think it is, like I keep thinking it is that somehow. Like I'm... I know that's when I'm identifying back again. I know that's when I'm identifying back again with the person I'm relating to the thoughts.
And it's been really actually good to hear all of this tonight because it actually did... It has helped to clear that up that that person that's having that experience and open-heartedness is a related to person kind of thing. It's like straight away, oh, I am having an experience of bliss. Like so when I'm thinking, oh, I think I've got something, I'm having clarity. It's actually just that related to me again having a good experience this time and thinking that's it sort of thing. But it's so hard because you do hear all so many different teachers describe that. And I know when I come back into the moment, like I was saying to you, Bob.
One thing that has really helped, I don't know why, but because I still keep believing in time. But that time thing that you said over and over again seems to be even more of an obvious like actually if you look, you really cannot deny. No one can deny that we cannot live in the past. And no one can deny that we cannot live in the future. There is only this. Like that is such... Once I really looked at that. Yeah. It is so undisputable. And then there is no... That has helped go with that me like because the me is always about the future. And a lot of the suffering is starting to ease because when I feel it, I can come back into that.
There is no future. So the suffering I'm imagining is going to happen. But yeah, I think I do still... It's just keeps coming back to that. You know, keeping on going back into believing in the future. Going back into believing that an experience like so many of the teachers talk about this bliss or this lightness that they constantly experience. I don't... Yeah. Again, it's all just thoughts because I know as soon as I say that I'm relating to this me and it's not real and that spaciousness which it's been really good to hear that. Yeah. The bliss and the lightness and all that are really byproducts and not the goal.
I think when... Well, I don't like a lot of those teachers is it gives you... It gives your mind something to hang on to and go, oh, wow. It gives it expectation and anticipation. And I really like the term unchanging because you can't color unchanging. You know, and if you tenaciously stay with that unchanging aspect, that blind sense of being, you know, Mm-hmm. you know. Yeah. That, I think, you know, because, you know, you were explaining this sort of open heart, heartness. Now, that was an experience. Unchanging isn't an experience. So, it's awareness. You know, that's the thing. It's sort of like you're watching this body-mind having experiences and stuff, but you're watching it the whole time.
You're already there. It's just... There is... There are moments where it seemingly opens and seemingly closes. But just stay with the unchanging. Just tenaciously stay. You know, if you have to do anything, just bring attention to attention, you know. And I found that really helped. I made that, you know, the first thing when I woke up in the morning, the last thing before I went to bed was awareness to awareness, you know. And throughout the whole day, whatever, you know, if you have to give your mind something to do, then give it that. Because that thing you're talking about, about, you know, that you can't get out of now, is true.
And that's what bringing attention to attention will bring you to. You know, you've already got an inkling of it, about you can't be in the past, you can't be in the future. And the more that it's... You can't be in the present either. Yeah, but they're words. Yeah. You can only be here, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, you can't be in the present. That's why it's a spontaneous emanation. Spontaneous. Beginningless and endless. Cuts out time altogether. Kasturi, have you noticed as well, Bob and Nisargadatta never talk about what this is in positive terms. Like Nisargadatta has only ever said that there's nothing wrong anymore.
That's the only thing he's ever said to describe this. And Bob will occasionally say, Uncaused Joy wells up. But that's about it. That's about all he'll say as well. Because, I mean, all these teachers, they just come up with all these fucking descriptions and ideas and theories. And it's just all shit. I mean, there's really... You can't describe what this is. You just can't. And they might mean well, but they end up causing you to chase your tail. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of them. And then they talk about, you know, levels and, you know, it takes this long to get here. It's like scraping off.
And they're all into this story stuff, you know. It's tough to... And it's completely not... Yeah. It won't aid you at all. Because you have those moments of what they are talking about. So then you think, oh, well, if I really, really, really got it, that... Because when you're in those moments of it is just love, you know, that is just ultimately the vibration of love. When you're in that, you know it's real. You know that that is true. It cannot not be true. And then it appears that you come out of that knowing. It's another story for us to get like... Because it's an experience.
Like, oh, where is that? It seems so real though. It's an experience. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. Like, you've got to remember it doesn't matter. It's just the sense of self trying to apply something that it thinks it needs or doesn't need or all of this stuff. Yeah. It's funny. It's funny. That was... That was . I mean, it's like what... Like, there is some sort of purported background. Yeah. Like, there is some purported benefit to however this can be stated. It's been like put in negative terms that there is like some... It's worth inquiring into. It's like implied that it's like look into this.
Like, look into the absence of an experience. Because there will be something. Like, there is, I don't know, an absence of suffering. Like, there is something that is like a deeper apprehension of reality or I mean, there is in some sense there is like there is some reason to look at it or else why would anyone look at it? What are you saying? Like, there is like... The only reason to look into it is to clear it up. Clear what up? Nothing. To realize that there is nothing to clear up. Why would you do that if there is nothing to clear up? Because if you've still got a problem, why wouldn't you do that?
Well, so that's the end of problem. Exactly. The end of suffering. The perceived problem. The end of the perceived problem. The thing is, I mean, I really relate to a lot of things you say. Like, try and stop seeking. You know, I did that for years. I did, oh yeah, now, is this really worth it? This thing that I do for 10 hours every fucking day. It really hurts and all these books and the cost. Yeah. You know. If there is nothing else, it's the bill. And then it's like, well, I tell you what, I'll just give up seeking then. It's like, for five minutes, you know, you're a seeker, man.
That's it. I'm really sorry about that. But you're, it seems like you're seeking reasonably fervently. Yeah. You can't do anything about it. No. No, you just have to get to the end of it. That's pretty scary. Yeah, basically, yeah. But I mean. Because I just see, I just see contradictions everywhere. Like, there is an implied goal. Yeah. There is. Oh, yeah. In duality, it's all a contradiction. Yeah. It doesn't matter, you know. You. You read Nisargadatta's stuff and it sounds like he contradicts himself all the time. Yeah. And it's easy to read it and go like, just like gloss over all these contradictions and go, like, because I've read like that and going like, yeah, actually, no, that contradicts, but it's spiritual, it's mystical.
So, you know, you don't have to make sense of it. And then you read it and try to make sense of it. It's like, fucking what the fuck is that? Yeah, yeah. It's funny because the mind's always moving. So, a pointer could be said when, you know, and something in the mind of the person who's receiving a pointer of a teacher or from a book or something. You could just hit blank and sometimes, oh yeah, and then a change can happen. So, there's so many different. It's relevant to that person. Again, the concept. So, they don't have any real meaning, but they have an impact sometimes depending on the timing or what's going on in the head of the person.
So, you know. Yeah, I mean. It's always changing. Like, I certainly have these moments where it's like, yeah, wow, that's, there's something to that. I can't wrap my mind what it is, but like, that's really like, it hits me with deep, you know, resonance. Yeah. Definitely. I really relate to what you're saying. It's almost as if you want all of them, the greats, to all be saying the same thing. So, then you can just crack on with what it is they're saying. Yeah. We'd be spending time actually trying to find the differences and the correlations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When are you actually going to say it, though?
It's like, there are books written by people who have done comparisons between what Krishnamurti said and what some ancient dead fella said. Yeah. You know, and all this sort of stuff. And you think, oh yeah, well, maybe they got to the bottom of what it's really about. I've gone and listened to them. Yeah. It's all total and utter nonsense. It's insanity. It is. It is. Yeah. So, it's like, it's compelling. I don't know. It's compelling, but the thing is, if you want to get this all sorted out, just take three or four really good pointers and just dwell on them. There's no time. Good one.
Point back. There's a space. You're already that. And there's three. Those three will get you there. No worries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't just go for a run. Yeah, so, so. I mean, the thing is to get a... Find a new hobby. Just forget about it. You don't have to be on it in your head all the time, you know? Yeah. There is no correlation between what they're all saying. Because they're all from different eras and different times. I mean, Krishna Mehri thought he was being talked to by people living on a cloud. I mean, operations done on his psyche and everything. I mean, you... I mean, I mean...
You read some of the stuff that... I was really into that guy. I bought every one of his books. Yeah. And some of the stuff that, you know, is proper mental. I mean, good psychology in it and all the rest of it, but nothing to do with this whatsoever, really. Not really. It's so complicated. There's three or four pointers straight out of Bob's mouth. So, that's basically the bad truths, you know? Yeah, that's what I was saying. There's no truth. There's no time. I think you're right, but I reckon that sometimes, like, I mean, Bob doesn't always use the same three or four pointers. And if someone says something, something will come from Bob that is totally...
You know, there's dozens of them. I agree. There's dozens, yeah. And sometimes someone will do something. I totally agree. I'm just saying that... And it helps them say, you know... But like, as you can say, I mean, there's no time and there's no... But yeah. But there is or there isn't time. There either is or there isn't. Yeah. So, you've got to find out which it is. Yeah. You've got to find out which it is and be sure of yourself. Yeah. And if there is or isn't there. You know, it's like that. And if there isn't, you know. And then that's the end of that.
But then it's like I'm seeking certainty of like that will, you know, the sense of time will collapse and then... That's where we... That's where we... It's not really that dramatic. It's just quite simply that if you think about the past, it's happening now. And if you think about the future, it's a thought happening now. That doesn't offer me any relief or deeper knowledge. It's just like, well, okay, so... Well, next time the thought comes up and it's got time involved in it, do you just let it go as if it's real? Or do you challenge it and say, hang on a minute, that's got no validity whatsoever?
So it's like a... So it's like a... It's like an active kind of like thing then? Just like... Yeah. I'll dismiss that, dismiss that. Yeah, dismiss... Dismiss everything. It's like it's on some sort. Dismiss everything. Any... Yeah, no, really. Dismiss... Dismiss everything. Yeah, there's a use for the intellect. No, bullshit. Dismiss the intellect. No, yeah, but there's times where you're gonna, you know, you're gonna use your head. You're gonna use your thoughts. But it's not... Whatever comes up, say, I'm not this. You... You'll dismiss that. Absolutely. You won't use your thoughts. You won't use your thoughts. But if you wanna study physics... You've never thought of those.
I've been using them. Well, you're not studying physics. You're looking into what your true nature is. I'm just... I'm... You never use... They're abstractions. I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. Whatever it is... Yeah. It's like... Like you said, Nisargadatta, it's a negative. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. Because what you are, you... It's just... It's just there. You can't... You can't say what you are and you can't... Yeah, no. I guess I'm just saying like it sounded like... Yeah, no. I guess I'm just saying like it sounded like... I hear what you're saying. It sounded like you were saying like, you know, if you're gonna plan something, you're gonna read and you're gonna conceptualize, I'm gonna go here on this date, so I've got to pay this...
Yeah, but the whole time that's going on, just be attentive to what's happening. Yeah. And whenever you... You will naturally, when the story's coming up, where do you... I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. I'm not this. Doesn't matter how good the experience is, they can have all sorts of... I mean, the other night, I was bathing in bliss on my bed and I was saying, I'm not this. Yeah. I'm the I. I'm the I. That's the key to this stuff. You are not the I, not the me thought. You know. That's critical in the stuff. Bob often uses an image of the we.
You wanna remove the problem, the we. The stuff. pick at the leaves and pull the flowers off take the thing by the taproot and pull it out and that me notion the me imagining it's doing this to get rid of something or doing that to get rid of something you know it complicates because just undercutting that whole sense of ownership is the key to this stuff and it's been said in various ways tonight you know there's no volition there's no doing and yet things seemingly are done choices are seemingly made but there's no choice maker so coming back to that core issue of taking ownership of that sense of a separate me creates all the problems and in seeing that seeing that that me notion is just another thing that's kicked up in the thinking stream any sense of location or whatever falls naturally back into what it is concept it's really important to see that that that reference point is just not there absolutely not there because often we go and do an investigation and we say I'm not this or I'm not that but it's almost then referring to a me in some sort of weird way but I think the important thing to see and it's what you said that that me is just not there in the first place the reference point is a phantom anything conceivable anything perceivable if you say that that's right then where does it leave you except with just recognise it nothing recognise time as a concept you know then you must realise it now is the only actuality this moment is the only actual you can never live this moment again so why not be totally with this moment this is the livingness it's a half baked with thoughts about yesterday and thoughts about tomorrow totally with this right now and you're actually living when you're living in the past and living in the future half the time you're missing so much because you're still seeing hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, breathing and all these things still going on they're going on in the background there's an awareness of them but they're not totally with you because they're pushed into the background and there could be things happening in those sensations and things like that that you're missing out on you're missing out on life look at it this is the actuality why worry about what I'm gonna do next or last be with it life if you want life this is life right now thank you thanks Bob thanks Bob well I'm kind of late yeah wanna go for a coffee with them I want to eat we could eat too yeah what the hell I think she's a little chester for that.
Really? Oh, I was thinking Morris. Well, that's very exciting. It's not possible. So I kind of promised we'd take him out. Yeah. Actually, I'll do you two. Hiya. Did Mo ask you to do a recording of the other night? Yeah, yeah. I lived there. Which other night?