This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original (above).
You synchronise all the clocks? No, they're all over the place. I haven't touched them for a while. Might have meant to put battery in one of them. You all know each other? Mick, Bill, Jim, Mo, Mark. You do now. Nice Greg. You get into the nitty gritty. Oh no, not the nitty gritty again. This is the gritty part. We'll leave the nitty behind. Who wants to kick it? I guess that I had more of a clear scene of like a lessening of the search. Again, like it was kind of seen more clearly. That the search, all of it happened, happens in thought. All of it happens in, and then the person who's searching also happens in thought.
So that thing that you say that you got to start from the place of realising that you are already that. I could see that clearly today because it's... It was almost like the... Um... The idea of awareness or consciousness is the same for every person. Like it's exactly the same. The only thing that changes for people is content of like their particular perspective. And all of that's only ever contained in thought. Yeah. So... Yeah. I guess it's really hard to describe like a moment of apparently learning something. But even then it was kind of saying that even that is not it because there wasn't any...
Because that was something that changed. So, yeah. What are you? Huh? What are you and all that? Just the thing that doesn't change. Yeah, the change. Yeah. And you can't describe it, can't give it any beginning or end, saying it all about it. But you can't negate it. No. So all those little moments that I have when I'm writing or I'm like, ooh, I'm getting somewhere, I'm finding something or discovering something, it's all horseshit. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that's it too.
That's it too. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time. Little moments. Yeah. And the horseshit. Yeah. It's very hard, when you were just speaking, it's very hard not to see that a thought or a statement or an idea or an emotion does not appear on that liveliness, on that awayfulness. It's very hard to see that. That that is not the case. Yeah. Say that again. It's very hard to see, it's very difficult to see, while you were talking, anyway this is what I thought, while you were talking it was very hard for me to see that any thought that I might have was not appearing on that liveliness or life or whatever you want to call it, or that awakefulness.
It's very hard to see that a thought or a statement does not appear on that awakefulness. It's very hard to see that. Once you've seen it, and you obviously had a good moment yesterday, it's very hard that whatever happens or whatever appears does not appear on that awakefulness. It's very hard not to see that. It's almost impossible once you see it clearly once, how could you think differently? What do you mean? It doesn't appear on that. Yeah, I guess I'm having a bit of a... No, I have to follow, I think you're just using negatives. Yeah, I'm using negatives. He's saying that once you've seen that thoughts appear in the space and you're the space, it's really, really tricky to fall for it for very long.
Once you've seen it, like you often say, once you've seen it, you know, the belief disappears, it disintegrates. Even though it seems to be something appearing on something, it's not, it's still the one essence. Yeah, it's still the one essence, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to be coming back. Move up, move up, move up. Not going to be coming back. Come a little bit closer. Yeah, it was kind of, I guess I had another, that the whole story, I don't know, there was another, there was something else that clicked. I don't even know if I can put it into words. I don't think, it was something to do with the story.
The story of, the story of me. Yeah, it was something around that, you know, coming from the place of realising that you have always been that. It was something really abstract that dropped or, yeah, I don't even know how to say it. You don't have to put it into words because you get the concept out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, something was recognised there or resonated with me. So it was there. Oh. And you mean it's always been the case and always will be the case. Yeah. And even if you, if you see it on your last breath before you die, that's, that's, that's enough.
Yeah. It was, it was kind of seen that clearly that even the whole bullshit that I think I'm trying to escape the story, all that sort of stuff, is all that, is everything. everything it's always been I've always been it's always been that yeah so once you see it it doesn't matter what you've done in the past or anything that's happened yeah it's all falls away and yeah but intelligence will tell you not to bother carrying on the story just a waste of time yeah yeah you've had some good stories yeah yeah so Bob I've been concerned that I'm gonna hear for a few days and I've been reading for years and looking about me for years and years and then when I've sat with you and had conversations with you that there's been these just massive moments it's physical feelings and just Wow get it moment and I think well I leave on Friday and the concern is that I'm gonna go back to books and podcasts and videos and YouTube and whatnot it makes me think what if you know all this time and then just moments with you and so much power and progress so much seeing through so much of the stuff makes me think well what forgot do you come and move to Melbourne you know but what are you doing but it's as if I'm focusing attention back on what it is that I am when I'm with you what are you doing when you're just telling me all that well I'm making a story about the future which is happening now yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah sorry that's recognized but statistically did a time motion study right on my life so far on the last three days there's been a whole barren period of 25 years and then two or three days of car boom it's hard not to make that go back into the 25 years naked man pulls them three with own falls of a job for that but through the years I've met people that said oh you have to sit at the feet of the Guru, blah, blah, blah.
And I've always thought, no, that's bullshit. You either see it or you don't see it. You look or you don't look. It's not up to you anyway. And then I come here, and whilst this isn't wrapped up in Gurudom, the fact of the matter is, I have come half around the world to see you, and I see all these things from doing this. So maybe there's some validity in that, the whole idea of resonance and whatnot. When did it all take place? Well, it all takes place in no thing, which has no position. So it's just here as it is there. No time, no place.
Yeah. But you're conceptualizing your story and place, and things like that. But you provoke me in the conversations in a way that I don't know anyone else that can do that. So I'm investigating, but when I'm investigating with you provoking me and quite very skillfully seeing my mistakes. And... I'm hammering into that. And then in that, it seems to be like a pause, a stop. It's, and it's that. Whereas when the investigation seems to be happening here, even though it seems quite clear that I'm not doing it, but it's happening here, it's just very on a level. It's, you're trying to look at it with the mind.
Nothing happens. It's not the right tool. So my only hope is that all I can do is to have, stay in with the no thing as being the forefront, everything being a problem. And then the other thing is, that there are the things that are being a problem, and then the other thing is, that I'm trying to figure out how to do the right thing, and that I'm trying to figure out how to go about staying there. And trying to see it in that. You're just saying that. I was gonna say, you'll soon recognize where it is. You'll start getting right into the story, you know?
Saying hang on a minute. We'll stop. But is, is there no more to it? Is what I've seen it? Is that it? I mean, what I mean, what I mean is... You're only a devil. No, but do you know what I mean? I've pointed back. I've seen that there's a space. That's it. That's it. That's the space. That's the space like awareness. Well, what do you want? Well, fireworks, frankly. Angels, hobbits. I mean, it's very important. I mean, the experience of... Like, when you listen to this, when he goes through this field for the very first time, you're paying rapt attention. You're actually... In your own mind, you're actually following the spirit of the spirit.
You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually... You're actually following it along. And it's just so bleeding obvious. And then... Were you just... I mean, I had a lot of fear come up. Mmm. Because I was doing it and I knew he was right. My mind was trying to figure a way out. Mmm. So I had a lot of fear, but, like, I saw it. Like, it really... Well, literally, it was the first time I ever came here. Mmm. And I keep coming back now from... You know, and then, like, I remember early days. Oh, I remember.
Yeah. I'd come in and sort of and then I'd find myself getting frustrated because seemingly I forgot it I had yeah and then I forgot that's it oh that's just like you know it's just the story and then it just it just seems to fall away a little bit right a lot it falls away at the time see right but that's just a story yeah that's just a story but but I had that I had exactly that just okay and I've just what I think I've been to you know gurus and living you know literally just sitting here in a meeting just to persist everybody it can't you know like I was just trying to work it out I couldn't be that simple mm-hmm and what I was saying was terribly profound it was like so the very idea that so so who I thought I was never was isn't and never was in the bend who couldn't have been him given that you sort of sort of 40 40 something years of my life with that belief yeah then you hear it yeah well me too abrupt and and I think one of the things that stood it up today is that you think about going home and people asking you well you went all the way to Australia to meet this guy and what join a cult or whatever it is that you're doing and you and then my mum and dad like who what are you doing you know well go look up say the ball and they will make me a shot I don't know I'm just going to I'm going on holiday I can't be a cult if you're only paying 20 bucks but I had 30 years of expectations about lights and yeah Kundalini and then but like Bob said you see through it once and you'll never be the same again you can't go back in there is a sort of weight you seemingly you know seemingly you go back you might lose your temper or whatever your little thing used to be there's just this weight of habit yeah like almost your body does it yeah but just it just sort of like I was saying it really does fall away right there's no you doing it it gets slightly frustrating actually that that's what I felt today it's a bit boring yeah that exactly this is boring yeah thanks for boring our pants all the way well well boring is interesting because I reckon I still reckon they're stageous with this yeah you know you hear so there's some sort of resonance on the first what time you hear Bob and then it just sort of grows I don't know there's nothing more that you need to know but you're like you're cleaning the mirror more and more yeah well things boring and I read and I read that looks a bit boring but it's still a bit misty and a bit dirty but you keep cleaning it and it shines through you know it's just the more you that's right I'm just behind you and the development yeah what I find boring is having seen it so clearly and have been so wow and then just the whole thought patterns yeah seeing a pretty girl oh I'm gonna get her it doesn't matter that's what I find boring yeah yeah I mean the other side pretty girl nothing nothing's really gonna change yeah nothing you're gonna change I'm still I'm still the truth will set you free the truth has set you free you've seen I mean there's nothing will change you'll chase the shields you'll still get in a head you'll still be happy you'll still be joyous you'll have all the full range of experience of emotions and blah blah blah you might be a bit more a quantum or steadfast or whatever but you know it's just ordinary ordinary awareness yeah because it sort of flips like your brain starts saying well you know well then there's nobody to do anything yeah then you're not gonna do anything and then what's gonna happen you're gonna fall apart because I've been looking for so long I've been through all the mind trips think that I don't feel like I have any problems with any of the concepts whatsoever but it's certainly having an actual oh wow is that the thing up until yesterday was I just thought being was limited to here so I got being up appointing and all the rest of it but Bob pointed out that the being doesn't start and stop here it's it there's no barriers to it there's no limit to it so your being my being there's no anyone's being it's just all beings don't be inside and outside yeah no that's like a big whoa so so there's that the thoughts constantly are trying to just make it into your here and that's pretty boring I think but you're saying that over time or time well that idea just wanes well has that been your experience the experience where you just you know you just function I mean I don't know you just thinking about and then you sort of it's only well I can like it I don't notice and so I do my thing I'm thinking that is I'm doing this but then if I get I'm at kilter at some point in time you know it's just suddenly I see it hmm I don't know you can still let me still want to do things and you can still sort of trying to skin in your mind and you know and whatever you know what I mean it's nothing changed like the chalk would carry water yeah make a difference yeah we'll go to do what you gotta do you function but you're sort of free in a way because there's no there's no this sort of weight there's you know there's a me against the world I've got you know sort of it's never quite the same it's just not the same so that the you know and I still I still think it fearful being you know normally worried about this situation whatever what would that be or something if you get there yeah yeah if you just keep coming back to Bob points out awareness very simply and clearly if you just keep coming back to that awareness is like this and it's it is in the fridge hmm awareness is more than arises in the news comes important kind of guys but you know when is yourself you know when is yourself it's fresh didn't you know no and and it's self-aware and that that means it's you don't have to do anything to be aware no you know it's stopping doing things stopping it's a stop and doing things and awareness you realize that we're just it's like the Sun's it just shines just shines it's just seeing this happen going right so we're trying to do it real see so it's normal them for having nothing I know come from like a Krishnamurti background no which is all very mental it's all pointing her it likes it moment this big moment and everything so there's this like a shadow cast forward of waiting for this thing to come where it was intellectually now I think well that's a ridiculous time so it's there's if there's no person now or before or it could be who's going to get in life?
Quite and having seen being being everywhere and having no start and no finish that is so obviously clear and yet there's like this shadow of the idea but I guess that's just like an echo from having thought about it for so long maybe I mean I feel like I'm trying to do something about this thought that comes up to explaining to it or you know trying to create a framework where it's so obvious that it's false so that it stops happening. So that's all just thinking and that's happening in awareness or in faith? Yeah doesn't have to be a problem that that's happening. No thinking's not a problem.
Thoughts can be free. Things are just crammed along and it doesn't matter. Some people sometimes raise the the idea that there's no point in thinking about it. Yeah. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. You had a question about instinct which is a very refined aspect and this shadow you have is probably a very refined aspect of some sort, but nevertheless it's still an appearance. Mm-hmm. An appearance on what you are. There's only none. There's only seen. That's all there can be. Like me you may be champion to be to develop something really beautiful you go back to the UK So you can tell people back there what this is all about But you have to really go back to your 25 years and your you know You'll develop the best point out what the best radio about this and you'll scratch your head and say Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but some people just don't see the first people don't get it No, no, no people. Oh, no, believe me. I don't want to go back and start an ashram I don't I don't want to go back and no one even asked me about it. I don't want to have to explain I don't want to even talk about it really just want to carry on like life just being normal What you went to Australia to say I Asked Bob what the best point of it, you know, the one that you can get as someone. Yeah, just lay it on Is you know what you say to anyone no Yeah Yeah, I feel I feel reluctant to talk to anyone about it I don't want to set them off on any sort of path that I've been down.
I don't want to be responsible for that. Well, haven't you got the shortcut now? You don't have to worry about the path you'll be on now. Yeah, that's that. There's a shortcut. There's a red. Straight through the gate. Was it, who was it that said they didn't want the set up? Was it John Wheeler or someone like that that said they didn't want miserable seekers cluttering up his front room? He didn't want to talk to anyone about it so they don't knock on his door on a Sunday. You know, I don't know what way it might express for you. No, no. No, I came back, I had to talk about it.
Yeah. People say, did the guru teach you to tell you to talk? I said no, I wouldn't give a stuff if you told me not to. Couldn't stop it. No, you just felt very strongly. Yeah. I bet they see some sort of clarity or something in you. You didn't say anything. Yeah. You know, you're like a happy little whatever or whatever. Yeah. And I say, what's going on there? What's going on there? Yeah. That's what I read. Because when you actually say it, oh, you know, I saw that there was no me and it was great. And it's like, yeah, anyone can read that in a book.
Yeah. It sounds like you're just spouting crap. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. You read a book and oh, you have these lines and yeah. Yeah. Off the book, I think it's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good thing. And it's just, often when people talk about stuff like that, often it's just to attract attention to themselves. In my experience, I speak to people that they come along offering advice and all this, and it turns out they haven't seen a thing. They read the books. They read the books. They've got the intellectual understanding. They're good. Yeah. Yeah. And mind you, Bob's got this beautiful analogy about going down to the sea to see if it's blue.
You've heard it, right? Yeah. I mean, it's really. . But it's a good, it's a beauty. It's a beauty. Yeah. You know, it's a beauty. It's a beauty. It's a beauty. It is. Oh. You go and see if it's blue and it's not. You look for an eye and you don't find one. But you know, sure as eggs. My only disappointment is that the seed doesn't appear clear. Yeah, that's right. Well if it did, that is bad. But I know it's not clear. Why is it clear? Yeah, I guess it was just old patterns wanting to try and protect my imaginary me from situations that you don't know how to respond to.
How do I explain to my mum and my dad, who have no knowledge about what I've been reading about for 20 years, what this is about? They're going to say something like, was it what you wanted? Did you get what you wanted? And what do you say to that? Without going five sides of a four. You can't make it clear. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was quite, yeah, I'm glad I went. You know, that's all I can really say, I suppose. But even that you're trying to predict. Well, your mum and dad love you. All they want to do is see that you're happy. Yeah, yeah.
It was good. I feel really relaxed now. I'm feeling good about myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not more than that, yeah. They don't want to know anymore. You've made them happy. But I remember listening to you on one of the podcasts saying that when you came back there were a lot of people who, your circle of friends or associates at the time, Yeah. a lot of the people who you knew beforehand didn't want anything to do with you after then. But there was a whole other set of people who were attracted to what you had to say. So you're sort of aware of the fact that people have some idea about what it is I'm into and things I might have said over time.
And then if you have a change in your behaviour, then you can just imagine what they're going to say. Or you can imagine what they, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah, these, this, that, and the other now. Or he's been off to see Bob and all that. So I'm sort of prepared for the fact that there's a potential. There's a potential of some churn, you know, in... Well, you're bound to change. Mm. I mean, I don't think anybody knows anything. I mean, the difference with me is that I didn't go off once in a while. Every once in a while I used to go off and lose my temper.
Just so it happens. There's no more. I mean, nobody's going to notice. I mean, Bob, maybe because he was, he felt moved to talk about it. I haven't, too. I mean, I've tried... I think I sort of talked one or two or three people into coming and having a look. Right. And that's about the extent. I'd just say, well, you know, you know, you're going to change that look. But they all just came once. Right. Yeah. But people like at your work or anything like that, you wouldn't really give them an interest in it? No, no, no. I wouldn't tell them. No. Mm. Have you tried?
I've tried with various people. You just move to... You just, you know when the situation's right. You just think, oh, it's... Look, I think it's just like, like I often say, there's a lot of things... This is... I don't think this is an absolute truth. I just think it's pointing to the truth. And so, like, you either see it or you don't. And a lot of people just, like, what's the purpose of Bob or, you know? And like, is it, you know, what he says, you know, in and of itself. Like, it's not an abstraction. It's to get you to see for yourself. And, but do I think that everybody's got to see what I, you know, what he's pointing at?
No, I don't. Because a lot of people are just perfectly happy, you know? It's just, it's tortured tweets like me. That need that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it always amazes me when I see people who are just blissfully happy. Well, they seem... You know, with their couples and their relationship and everything's just going well. And you think, maybe I haven't studied philosophy for years. How can you just... And he's good looking. And he's a good guy. And he's wealthy. And he's got the best guy. Yeah, he's got the money. He's got his car. And he's a really nice guy. Plus, you know, plus. Well, I bet you if you went up to any of those guys, any of them, any of them, more women, and said, have you found what you're looking for?
Yeah. I bet they'd say no. Not at all. I reckon they'd say yes. Maybe some of them. Like, Lambert, Yee, Big Busty, Wadah, Good Job, I mean, who? I reckon some of them are bloody happy. Do you reckon... Well, if you really want to be happy, you know, you've got to be happy. Just eyeball them and say, have you found what you're looking for? Look, I know you're a miserable bastard. Just tell me. Just tell me. You're a miserable bastard. You will be now. But you make life. And then get them to find it. And what would it be, you know? Apart from their riches and their fast car and their pub on the corner or whatever.
Yeah, but that's just their deal though, isn't it? Well, that's their deal. But, you know, I mean, look, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because some people won't ever look at this or ever have the inclination to do it or won't do it or, or, and if it doesn't come up for them, then that's. They may just not be exposed to it. Yeah. They might not even have a chance to ask the question, who am I?
Yeah. You know, they might just, it might cross their path. Yeah. It's a problem of the ego. That's the only problem. And some egos are not too pronounced, you know. They can get along quite well in the world. Right. Without being into extremes. Yeah. They don't need to look at it for that. Mm. Doesn't bother them too much. So, the bigger the ego is inclined to look at it or not really? Well, I don't know whether, whether it makes them inclined to look to a certain stage it might or didn't. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. They just don't know. They don't know. They don't know. They don't know. Just like I did here, you know, and I didn't you know, didn't know anything about it but the looking was going down. Yeah. The heaven or the turnaround, you know. Like for me it was like, not, I don't even want to say like, get so dramatic to say a matter of life and death but it was the only direction that I could go because, you know, the pendulum swings were getting so, do you know what I mean, like the, there wasn't, I know it doesn't make sense to say that either because it's the only way that it did go because because that's the only way that I went.
Do you know what I mean? There was that. Which you go the other way, if you go the other way, you end up suicide. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, a strong ego is so, so much suffering and it's so awful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always remember hunting this down with great gusto, but not really knowing what the hell I was looking for. Because I started with meditation techniques for 30 years. And then one day I thought, what the hell is going on? Where is my enlightenment for all the time that I've spent meditating, all the dough that I've spent, all the books that I've read, you know, where's my fucking enlightenment?
We should have come along earlier. Well, and then Bob, I googled, I think for the last time, enlightenment or something, and then you sprung up. I thought, I'll go around and tell this bloke a couple of things. Yeah. I've got bloody 40 years worth. Soon as I walked in, I think half an hour later, I said, it's all here. I don't need to go anywhere else. Honestly, I haven't read a book since, except some of yours. And you know, otherwise, always in libraries, looking for books, looking for answers, doing me programming, trying to be vegetarian, which I hated. I don't know if you know, fucking up chamomile tea, coming out until it's come out of your ears.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And the funny thing is, when you see it, then it was always like that. That's the biggest laugh, in a way. Yeah, there's nothing like a slice of dead cow. Dead cow? Slice of dead cow on a cake, yeah. Sheew. Yum yum. Just having an image then of like a cow, like sideways, but the bandsaw that's just run across it, and an inch thick, and then that slab just falling into a barbecue. barbecue. That'd be awesome. So with you, what have you been looking at for 21 years? I did, well everything kicked off when I was about 12 or 13 and my cousin died and it was like, it had a real big effect on me.
Seeking started at that point. So like I'm 43 now, so between then and now I've been reading philosophy, 10 years of Krishnamurti and that's a head fuck. You can bang your head against the wall with Krishnamurti, being starved every day. But if you listen to it now, you can hear us a bit. Yeah, in fact one of the podcasts that Gilbert did, there was a Krishnamurti thing in it and interestingly, listening to it I got the same feeling of frustration that I used to get all that time, day in day out, from Krishnamurti is like, there's this thing, you can't have it, I've got to do it.
That's it. Go into your mind and try and find it. Your mind won't help you. Go. It's horrific. And now I've been hearing it. Oh totally. I just walk away. It's not for me. I've never watched. I didn't even listen to it because it's very admirerish. It's very much so, yeah. But there's a certain flavour with that thing that I've never met anyone that has found any sort of peace or seen anything through it. Lots of experiences. So anyway, 10 years of that, 10 years of a match. And then find Bob and then boom. Yeah. Man, you're going to have to write a testimonial for your next match.
20 years of this, 20 years of that, Bob for two days, boom! You're a million south of the cradle of the top. Yeah. Yeah. Finally Bob, you have arrived! You have arrived! Yeah. Yeah. It's just hilarious that, it's just hilarious. It's the awareness that's been there the whole time. For the whole thing. Watching this whole thing. I've seen those eyes and the face. Yeah. I've never even heard of it. Yeah. What do you say about ignore Bob? Ignore we? Ignore, what do we ignore? We ignore our true nature. Our true nature. Yeah, yeah. Focus on the appearance. So behaviour's got nothing to do with this.
Your behaviour, the way you behave in the world, has got nothing to do with this whatsoever. How you are, your character. It's irrelevant, innit? By how you're just the same as the rest of the bunch, you can see that with that intelligence energy. Yeah. I mean, I look back at instances that have come about in my life, this life, where I've been incredibly kind and also incredibly cruel at times, which, you know, with all the guilt and the shame and all the rest of it, but it couldn't have been any different. You know, it was so clear that it couldn't have been any different. Things that happened in a turn that was so quick.
I look back and think, why? Why did I do that? And yet, if you're just a tool in being used, then I guess that's the way it had to be. It's the only way of resolving it. I look back now with this new perception and I look back and think, I don't feel guilty about these things anymore. I feel like that it's actually unrelated. You're not in control of any of it. But you don't keep doing it. Yeah, but I haven't got any control over whether I do do these things again or not. You don't. Yes, you haven't got control. You don't have any control over it.
What's the necessity of it? What are you going to get? How's it going to feed the nail or fix the nail? What are you relating it to? So because the self-centre isn't the focus of attention anymore, then you think actions change because of that? Yeah, well, it's a fixed reference point you're relating to, constantly. You're not relating to it, you are the flower. You're not the flower, you're the way of the flower. You don't know which way you're going to go. In the truth, there's no real view to, you know, they're controlled anyway. No. So, but you can still, I mean, you still function, you still think how to work out, I mean, that's, you know, this is the form you take, this is the appearance, you're in the appearance seemingly and, you know, the body-mind functions in the appearance.
And as Bob pointed out yesterday, it's totally unique. You're sort of mildly, and I keep being mildly, I'm probably disappointed that this is still the way, but, you know, I know. We've all got a certain nature or a certain bent. Yeah. And that's just how this operates. Yeah, yeah, and that operates. And this is what I felt recently over the last few months before coming here, I just felt more, I'm a piano player and all it's been is pain through my whole life. I went to music college and the whole thing has just been pain, you know, wanting to be better, being around people that it's all, you know, it's all, you know, it's all pain.
I've been around people that it's all more, more, more, better, better, better, not good enough, all of that. It's just been a perfect, music has just been an absolute perfect avenue for pain. Everything you need about not feeling good enough or is perfect for music or art or any of those sort of things. Probably science as well, people that are in that sort of world. But for me, it's been absolute perfect backdrop for not being good enough, for not getting where you want to go, not being right, you know. And then recently, all that sort of fallen away to like, well, this is how I am, this is how it is.
You know, this is when I play the piano, this is how it comes out. It's only like this when I do it. Take it or leave it, I don't give a fuck, it's what you think about it anymore. And that has been a real big relief. And that's purely down to looking at this. Because who cares? I mean, who cares? You know, like Bob said yesterday, there's ten people in the room, there's ten different opinions. And if there's a hundred people in the room when you're playing the piano, then there'll be a hundred opinions. And you can't make them like you. Which one's right? Exactly, which one's right?
They don't know where you've come from, they don't know your name, you know. Yeah, but I mean, for some individuals, most people probably isn't super strong, but certain people, and I suppose it'd be a bit more obvious exactly what you're talking about when you're talking about a piano player, but there's this drive for excellence. You know, so it's not just a matter of learning the skills, it's a matter of perfecting and perfecting. But if you watch young musicians, really, I mean, I'm the Young Musician of the Year, I don't know if you have that here, but I mean, there's kids that are like fourteen, and they're playing Ratmaninov, note perfect, with bravado and beauty and emotion, and you're watching them and, I can't do that, I'll never be able to do that, I don't even want to do that.
You know, so if it is a scale of judgement, and you're only as good if you're the best or whatever, it just doesn't work in music. Yeah, but you see, that's the flip. So, for certain people, particularly when you do what you love, but it's not a matter of judgement, it's not a matter of, oh, I've got to be better, it's just, there's a natural drive for excellence. Yeah, certainly within yourself. Versus, oh, I have to do this because I'm in competition, and I can't bear being seen in this way, or whatever, you know, then you're into it. Well, that's the world that they give you when you go to college.
Yeah. That's what they give you. Yeah. And everything is there to support that. All the people around you, it all supports that for you. Not the view that you, if there's anything to compete against, it's, well, something. It's not about yourself and if you come back, so they're not that sort of thing. I mean, you see, the Supremes in any sort of, you know, whether it's the Olympics or whatever, really, in the end, they sort of compete, they all say this, they're competing against themselves. But once you get to juveniles, they're sort of, so they're striving within themselves. So, like, you know, the Tiger Woods or something like that, they've already beaten the best, you know, but they still, you know, they're sort of, which is nice, I mean, I think.
They're freakishly good. Yeah. Oh, yeah, they're so freakishly good that the mere mortals, you know, have no, I just wish I'd been told at the beginning that just treat this as a hobby. If you treat it as a hobby, then there's no competition, no pressure, then you can just enjoy. I could have enjoyed it all the way. I've been playing since I was four. I could have enjoyed playing the piano for 40 years and I've enjoyed it for about three months. And if you were to be playing Lyrax Manunov with your eyes closed and standing, whatever, how would that get there? You might have been playing in the London, the Palaise, the Mugmet Bowl.
I mean, all this sort of stuff is like, beautiful, really. It's all God's speed, you know, it's all God's speed. It's all like, spontaneous and just happening. All the piano players in the world, they all can't be the best. Exactly, exactly. But you're so concerned because it's so public and so, you set yourself up because you're so vulnerable. When you consider yourself to be the body, then you do this thing in front of other people and they're clearly judging you, they are, then you are subject to all of that and it affects what's happening. It becomes a loop. Whereas if you don't consider yourself to be a person, then this is just happening.
But don't you think there are people, let's just say, because it's a piano player, let's just say, say, somebody playing the violin, for example. Don't you think there are people who are playing the violin who are just like, you know, solo, just, you know, whatever they're called, supreme soloists or whatever they're called. Mm-hmm. And there's other ones who are playing in orchestra, very, very high, to a very, very high standard. I mean, they all don't necessarily think the way you think about how they're trained through music. Do you know what I mean? Do you mean what you think that they just don't like that? No, how you feel pressured, you know.
Oh, no, because I'm just not suited for that world. Exactly. Yeah, but there are people that are suited to want to be the best and be... But even, like, even a really superb, like, there are people who are, listen, you know, they're in their first, whatever, the first row of the big orchestra and they're playing viola and violin or something like that, and they're one of the top three in the orchestra, but they're not the... then the soloist comes out, who's better than them or whatever, do you know what I mean? But, like, they're supremely happy just because... Well, that could be true. Well, it is.
Do you think it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're not all... it's just, it's a particular... It's, like Bob was talking about, it's a particular ego, it's an attachment. Mm-hmm. You've got a preconception about how things are supposed to be. So you can sort of say, well, it's all pressure external, but really you're... there are people who wouldn't be as bothered by the external pressures. Oh, that's certainly true. That's certainly true. I mean, I think Bill's absolutely right. You know, all of these things have come about to... If I was happy doing that, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be interested in non-duality or finding out what I am if I was just, you know...
If I'd become... if I'd have got all the girls that I wanted and done all the things, all the music I'd ever wanted, why would I be here? I'd just be happy, I'd be on my yacht. Mm-hmm. And how are you feeling now? I've been pretty good about it, I think. Happy? Yeah, there you go. The Buddha had all those things, didn't he? He did have to do the right thing. The Buddha had all those things, and then he still knew that it wasn't right. I don't know about that, mate, do you? Yeah, he was a prince, he was a... He was a royal prince, he was royalty...
Was he the Buddha after the prince, wasn't he? Oh, yeah, he was the prince. He wasn't the prince. He wasn't happy. I can't remember the story. Look, it changed. He put it under the Buddha tree or whatever, but that was a long time, but he became an ascetic long after he was, you know... Yeah, yeah. And that story is retold in Christianity lots of times, lots of different great Christian saints who were... You know, had seemingly had everything... Yeah. ...and then became ascetics. Yeah, yeah. And their bliss came in, you know, seemingly... So back to the point that there's no relationship between how you are and your character as a person and this.
Yeah. No relationship. No. It doesn't matter. The big question is, we often prattle away wondering, I don't know, this is just prattling, okay, so... But whether people just for love, so rather than being innocent like me, you know, ill at ease and discontent, there are people who love... Who seek because of love of the truth or love of the divine or whatever. Is that possible? And I thought it was. Yeah. And I thought it was. I said, no, you're wrong, you idiot, they're all discontent. Even the ones that seemingly, you know... Even the ones that seemingly do it for a positive... Discontent still arises, you know.
For me, it appears. Well, it's there, you know, and if you... So you still get... Okay, you still get discontent after you've achieved enlightenment. After you've achieved enlightenment... Well, that's... Yeah, yeah, I do, yeah. What a bastard. You know, everything is just spontaneous. It just arises. Right. content or content in this? It's all one. And something went a little side this way. That was enough Bob, it's all one. It's all one, okay let's get out of the pub. Yeah, it's all one, so it's all an equilibrium. So what could be better or worse? You said from time to time Bob, everything's valid in the appearance.
Because it's only appearance that doesn't exist. There's only the entity substance or any independent. And just like everything's valid in the dream, everything's valid in this seeming appearance. So if something comes up that doesn't fit with the idea of enlightenment or clarity or something, then that isn't a sign that you haven't got it. You haven't seen it, because anything can come up. Why would you carry around an idea of enlightenment when you reckon there's no such fucking thing? Well, I'm just trying to use words to describe the thing. I don't have the idea of enlightenment anymore. I don't have the idea of enlightenment anymore, because there's only being, I'm the being, there's only being.
So I see that. If confusion comes up, so what recognises confusion? Well the being recognises confusion, but it's... If you can recognise confusion, then what recognises it is not confusion. Okay, but I suppose my point is... So confusion can come and go. But surely confusion comes up in relation to the hook. What hook? The hook of... Where is this? Show me this hook. But I would have thought, okay, so my projection is that having seen what I am, why would confusion ever come up? Because surely confusion would ever come up in light of the misunderstanding of what you are. Are you saying that anything could come up?
It presupposes that there's a you that's got it. Well this is it, so if there's no you, why would there ever be confusion? Because all thoughts are spontaneous. And it doesn't matter what thoughts come up. There's a distance that happens between... There's just like a letting go of the importance of thought. Thoughts can come up, and in that, confusion can... Seemingly happen. Doubt can come up. Yeah. Doubt. Yeah, doubt. Yeah, yeah, doubt. And doubt... What knows doubt? That doubt is like this? What can see doubt as an object? It can't be... It's an object of an awareness. So you don't give any validity to any of the things that come up.
You treat them all the same. You just see them from awareness, and that's it. Well, awareness... It's not that you're seeing things, because that's created a duality. It's that you're seeing something. It's just like... It's just spontaneous. It's just like... That's all it is. And all two ends of the same stick, pairs of opposites. Doubt, confusion, doubt, doubt's just another thought. Happiness, unhappiness, all that. So, you know... The resistance... You recognise the resistance. And you realise that resistance is the problem. So you can't be non-resistant. All that has to happen is to recognise... All that has to happen is to recognise the resistance. Where could it be recognised from?
Non-resistance. Recognised from its opposite. The attentive... You can't be attentive. All you can do is recognise your inattention. And that must be from the point of attention. But try to have some concept of what these things are, and start from that. It's not... Because it vibrates in the pairs of opposites always, it's only from its opposite. It's... It's just falling to it... Yeah. So if you get fixated on, oh, I have to be clear and there has to be clarity all the time. Yeah. Then you've brought into it a bit again. Yeah. That there's clarity, there has to be, you know, confusion. And, you know, they're opposites.
Okay. But because you're neither of them it's not a problem? Yeah. But when you just relax back and, you know, present and aware... Without doing anything. Mm hmm. therapy that comes up. You don't get bondic therapy in Boston. Okay, okay, okay. I see that. Look at that in the manifestation. A pile of water, you're stirring, you know, it's got mud in it, you're stirring and stirring and stirring, you know. Trying to get it clear, you'll never get it clear by stirring, what do you do? You'll never become still. That settles it with health. You need a little something. Yeah. See, over the years, I have...
once we spoke on the phone a few years ago, and I asked you about meditating, which I've never done really, I messed around a few years ago. And I said, well, I've been doing this thing where I just sit quietly and do nothing, don't focus on anything, but just don't do anything for a while. And I noticed some really incredibly calm, wonderful, beautiful love, feelings of love would just come up, like waves of just joyous feelings, really. I don't know why I didn't do it every day, but anyway, well, there you go. Probably just, I don't know, a few times this would happen. And I feel the urge to do that again now, not to get anywhere, but just to bathe in it in a way.
Is that right? Do you recognise that? It's funny you should say that, because I'm a member of AA, and I go to meetings with alcoholics and so on, and just the last three weeks, Bob, I've been going to a meeting once a week, a meditation meeting. I've never gone to a meditation meeting before, really. It's a meditation meeting. I go to a meditation meeting once a week, which I only started doing three weeks ago. And I used to meditate long before I came to Bob. I used to do a whole meditation, I went to gurus and taught meditation and everything. And I just haven't done it.
I haven't done it. Anyway, I went and did, it's ridiculous, it's a lead meditation, you know, with a CD player and Tara Brack or someone, you know, some Buddhist type thing. And she did three different meditations, so each week it's a different type of meditation. But it's basically just, you follow and then there's pieces to it. And it's really, like I'm just, like I immediately, there's just, I just, I reckon I'm just familiar with the stillness. So, and like you sort of say, I just think, well, why haven't we been doing this since quite last year? Yeah, it's actually, I always remember that when I do do that, or I do do that, I remember thinking, God, this is actually the best thing I do in my life.
This feeling is better than sex. It's better than, you know, I don't know. It's better than drugs. It's better than music. It's better than film. No, because it's just so pure and beautiful and deep and like, wow, this is, God, this is amazing. And then you don't do it for a year. Well, in the same way that I do that, you might go and have a sauna or a massage. Yeah. You know what I mean? Again, they're just spontaneous horizons. Yeah. And that's what happens. It's not necessarily going to lead to anything. Yeah. I think that's the difference. Or you'll eat the best palmy, or you'll have...
Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I think in the past, I was thinking about doing that to try and get enlightenment. Whereas if I was to do that now, it's not that. It's just a thing that you might do. It's not because of a reason. A meditation, Thai meditation, you've got to be a meditator. You've got to meditate. That's what, that's what I do. That's what they call undistracted non-meditation. You're not trying to meditate. Don't try to try to get something. That undistracted meditation, you're not doing anything, but you're never away from it. Well, one of the things that I was thinking about today that somebody said it before, there's the outside-inside thing.
That came up for me today, that there's no barrier. I guess the... The idea that I had was that this body or the person that I believe myself to be is the perceived barrier between inside and outside. And that kind of dissolved today, that idea. And then there was also the idea that my thought, thought, or who I am is separate from reality. And then again, it was actually, it's not. It's the thinking, the thinking that happens is actually part of, is part of everything. Part of everything? Yeah. So it's all, it's not separate. It's not like I've got to change my thinking because my thinking is bad or whatever.
It was just, again, just, it was the same. The thinking happens with the same spontaneity as a car going past or a sound appearing or... Yeah. ...a sound appearing. Yeah. And then it's the same thing with the thought. Well, we tell you that here too. We ask you what's the next thought going to be. Yeah. You don't know. So you don't think any thoughts. All thoughts are unthought. Yeah. No thinker of them. They come up spontaneously. Yeah. And that thought that comes up spontaneously contains the person that you believe yourself to be. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's all the same thing. Or the... Or the... Or the...
Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Or the... Your actions are spontaneous and the environment's clearly spontaneous. And the image you form from those thoughts... Is clearly spontaneous. ... that you think you are. Is spontaneous. Is spontaneous. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's certainly, there's certainly sort of fulcrum, isn't there? There's, you know, the original, the I Am, and then there's this sort of fulcrum of recurrent thoughts and ideas that swing around and... Mm. And one's sort of seeing that that's just... Yeah. you know, an aid to social, you know, an aid to the functioning, it's, it puts us on more than that.
Yeah. Certainly, Elvis' nature tends to change, one thing. To me it's quite miraculous. You always have to do is think like, hi, I'm Mark, and then spontaneously suddenly all these, these thoughts and the things that happen, they all just pop up already and then my whole history is there. And this is me and it's one thought and you can do it and the whole, the rest of it is there. Incredible world. Yeah. Yeah. It's like magic. It is, it is like magic. It's like looking into an atom that contains the universe. That's right. And when you think of it, like this body now is connected to the body from yesterday, from right back to a baby.
And so this body is like connected. Yeah. It's like Indra's net. It's like, you know, what this is now is a reflection of everything that's gone before, that got gone in the past and will influence everything about this body in the future until it dies. Yeah. And it's like you bind to one and the whole, from a baby to death, it just, it's all there. And it doesn't matter what point you look at the body, it's all connected. It's all just one. This is quite incredible. Mm-hmm. Nisargadatta says you can only ever be the seeing or the knowing. You never, anything that you can conceive or perceive.
You are always that pure subjectivity. Always sounds like there's this pure subjectivity and something else. However, that paradox is also contained in what you are. I think we often, or I often set out to try and define, you know, the world. I think we often set out to try and define awareness because in a sense it's quite sort of palpable. It's sort of like, it's obvious. I know you can't measure it or weigh it or... Can't find it. Can't find it. You can't negate it. That's right. So in that sense it's palpable. But even that, that palpability when I have just said what I've said, that appears in, I don't know, even something, I'm not going to say beyond that awareness, but there's just nothing there, you know.
There's just absolutely, there's just emptiness. Just... The awareness occurs in awareness. The awareness occurs in awareness. Can I ask a question? You mentioned something before about strong egos. And I guess I think I have a fairly strong, strong ego or fairly strong mind. Because my, I guess, like my weekly experiences go from, you know, complete, almost insanity, suicidal thoughts, just crazy thinking, like it's really vivid and really full on. But there's always, in that there's always, I don't ever get lost in it. It's just like I kind of sit and I go, you know, and sometimes it gets quite overwhelming, but there's always, there's always a center to it.
So... A recognition. Yeah. I can, I can buy into it, but then it will, then it will fall away. And it goes... Yeah. And then it gets, you know, normally you'll get followed by just clear seeing. And it seems to like, I guess, for the last... So you've already got a perspective on it. Yeah. But it's... I mean, it's a big, huge difference between being completely I am the thinker thinking these thoughts. Yeah. I don't think that, but there's the knowing that this is me thinking these thoughts versus suddenly becoming aware of your thinking. Yeah. Yeah. You can't decide. Yeah. You can decide as much as you want.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, 10 minutes later, you're going to be seemingly lost in it. Yeah. Yeah. You just don't know. And it used to, I guess, like for a lot of my life, like I get lost in it and it was quite, you know, it's horrendously traumatic. And I wouldn't even know to, to look back. I'd look back and go, oh my God, what the hell? Like there'd be a chunk of my life and I'm like, what the hell happened there? Like, you know, and just not... I kind of look at it as a, that swinging pendulum as a benefit because it clearly points to which doesn't change.
Do you know, man, like the extremes are so violent. I kind of look at it and say that. Instead of having a swinging pendulum. Yeah. Why don't you have a stroke? See, it's all in one stick. The subject and the object is one and the same thing. While they're swinging. The concept... The concept of a subject and an object, the opposite. Yeah, yeah. There's no one-handed stick. Each stick's got two ends to it. Because we talked about that last week. Do you get that? The what? The, you know, a stick. A stick has two ends. Yeah. So, you know, when Bob talks about hearing, you know, he's hearing and there's the...
Conceptually, it's a natural thing to, to a sense of something. An object heard and me, a sense of me hearing it. Yeah. That's the stick. And there's the two ends of the subject object. Yeah. The hearer and the thing that's heard. And it's, that's just one thing. You're saying that they arise. Well, it's all one. It's one thing. Yeah. So, you can't have somebody hearing without, you know, without hearing. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. And people seem to really, to me, it's a very... Yeah. To me, it's really obvious, but people seem to have a lot of trouble understanding that or seeing that. I get, I get...
Well, the stick, which is one thing, it's just one thing. It has two ends. Yeah. Two ends. Yeah. And one end is the... The thing, two, seems to... Well, two is one. Yeah. So, if you fixate on I am hearing and then you created me and the object and you're stuck as me and that's with the fixation. Yeah. But, and actually, when you sort of step back from it all and the sense of me, you know, the sense of me is something that arises because I'm looking at an object. Yeah. Something you said before, I thought was, hit the nail right on the head, is something that came out of Krishnamurti.
One of the only things that came out of Krishnamurti that I remember has been really totally accurate, which is the thinker and the thought arise together. That is, that is so true. Yeah. And how I forget that, I don't know. Yeah. Because it's so true. Thinker, thinker, thinker. There's no thought without the thinker. There's no thinker without the thought. And this stick. This got, this got stick. And it went in the stick. Yeah. So, thinking, thinker, thought. Seeing, seeer, and the visual object. Hearing. See, when that thought comes up. Yeah. It seems to have in it, or for me, when it happens here, the thought comes up and it, and it seems to point, the way it talks, it's like a joker or it's like a con man.
Yeah. That talks as if it's talking to you as a person. Yeah, yeah. But, and it, what it doesn't say when it pops up and does that is, is, oh, I am, I am not talking to an actual person. I am the impression that there is an actual person whilst I'm here. And as soon as it's gone, there isn't anything else. That's it. Yeah. And it's like, fucking hell. Yeah. That is so cheeky, man. When I was. What, it's like a con. It's like a total con. It's like. When I was in Peru, I had this really vivid dream of, like, it was one of those lucid dreams.
Yeah. But waking up in the dream, I, I woke up in a, like a lavish kind of dream. And I was in this circus tent that was open at the front. And there was this little, little imp, and it was like in medieval clothing. Right. And it's this little, as I woke up, I noticed this little dwarf man or little imp whispering in my ear. Like this. I'm like, whoa, what the hell? Like, and then he disappeared. Yeah. And then I'm like walking through this carnival. And I knew in the dream. Yeah. I knew that that was my mind. Yeah. Or that was, that was exactly what you described then.
Yeah. The, the guy talking to you and talking to you. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the carnival. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I'm going to go to the carnival. Yeah. And you know, I was like talking to you and telling you in the dream who you are. Yeah. And what the limitations are. And what the fears are. It's like an idiot. Fool just going on here. Yeah. Yeah. Hm. And it's so, and it's but it's so convincing. Mm. That you think that what, that when it's there, that he's actually talking to an actual person. But when it's not there, it, there's no person.
And that's, is that, I mean, was that accurate, do you think? Is that certainly what I found? No thought. No thinker. They come together. Yeah. Mm. They kind of go away. I mean, what you learn here is that, you know, there's a pseudo-subject and a pseudo-object. So, you're talking about hearing, I hear something. But it's just hearing. The hearing is happening. And when you see it, you'll still seemingly make the same misidentification, but less and less. So, more and more, I notice the thoughts and I don't feel a strong identification with them. So, I'm not sure that I would say that immediately the thinking is happening.
There's implicit in it, there's a belief that I'm the thinker thinking the thoughts. There's no belief anymore. It's a sense of me thinking can come up. It's like you're not fooled by it. Yeah. And then all there is is the functioning. Right. In general. It gives us something that's happening in the moment. You're thinking or you're seeing right now, aren't you? And the thought will come up, I see. As soon as the thought I see comes up, you've formed a seer. A subject. It's just a conceptual translation of what's going on. And as soon as there's I see, what do you see? Whatever the object is.
You put the label on that. So, you've formed a subject and object. Two things. But can there be a seer that's not seeing? There's just seeing. There can't be a seer. Without seeing. There can't be the seeing without seeing. So, they're only divided conceptually. That goes with the thinking, the tasting, the touching, the smelling, the feeling. It just seems so much easier with things like seeing and hearing, but thoughts, they won't just come up and say... No, no. In this context, fine. But let's say you're in work, you're in a stressful situation or a relationship thing or something like that. The thoughts don't just come up and say...
You're telling me the same story again. Well, no. I'm... You are. I'm reporting times when things have happened that the reason why you buy into them, because when they come up, often they're so complicated, they come up with such implications that you buy into them. And then they leave everybody on the ground. But 99.9% of everybody makes that, if you like, error. So, what makes you think you should have been so different? No, I'm not saying I shouldn't have been different. I'm just saying now, having seen that, it's just fascinating to see that, because when that thought comes up, when... Now I've seen that the inclined thinker comes up with the thought, then you just go, okay, the thinker is with the thought.
It's not pointing at the thinker that I then got to go and find and resolve. It's just, you thought the thinker, rise and fall together. And historically, you know, like a month down the track, you'll seemingly, you get frustrated with yourself because you got lost in your... Or might have jumped in front of a train, you know, then I was going to go. On Sunday, it was, believe it or not, half an hour of sunshine. And I was bushwalking. And Carolyn said, I'm going to keep going. I said, I'm going to lie in the grass. So I lay in the grass. And we all have these experiences, all day long.
And I'm lying in the grass and I'm just sort of like, I don't know what I was doing, dozing or whatever. Why am I getting wet? Hey? Why am I getting wet? Well, exactly. All of a sudden, my bum got cold. And up jumps the thought, cold bum and an eye, immediately, you know. Yet prior to that, what was happening? Seeing was happening. Hearing was happening. The breathing and the digestion. Getting wet was happening. Getting wet was happening. And then all of a sudden, you know, that eye pops up. Eye popping, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, think of any time in the day. And I've been thinking of lots of experiences throughout the day where you're just toodling along.
That eye is not really there. You're not saying, I am walking on the footpath. I am the seer and it isn't seeing. I know that seeing is happening underneath, you know. In fact, the majority of time. The majority of the day. The majority of the day. The majority of the day, you're seeing, you're walking around. You're seeing, hearing and there's no me that's, you know, you're not telling yourself a story, oh, I'm hearing this or you just. And that's when you'll play your best piano. Yeah. When the eye is not there. You see that, there you go, case in point. Yeah. That's the time because I improvise and the one thing that stops clear improvising is being aware of the thoughts when you're playing.
You know, that's the last thing you want. It's like walking down the Oxford Street thinking, oh, I'm going to go to the hospital. Yeah. Oh, man, I'm going to avoid the next going in. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas if you're not thinking, you're just walking through. Just playing. Just playing. Yeah. You do it unconsciously. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you often say, musicians often say, what do they say? They're like in the groove. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The zone. The groove. The zone. Yeah. In the zone. Yeah. You can't go anywhere except play really well. Oh, yeah. There's no choice. Yeah. It's just happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a lot of people experience spiritual experiences through music.
Yeah. Yeah. No interest in spirituality or philosophy or anything like that, but they have to get it through music. Yeah. All that oratory, you know, off they go. Yeah. They don't even know what they're bloody saying. Yeah. And the crowds are applauding and clapping. Yeah. And Rick with his writing and, you know, you with your piano. Yeah. And when you were cutting someone open, you guys, you know, you're thinking about it. I feel the urge to do that now, but... Oh, but you're fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ahh! Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah. It really makes sense.
Oh, yeah. See, I found a guitar. I found a guitar. Yeah. So, you put a guitar one File, you know, and you play a hand tremble on the string. Okay. Yeah. You're drop Если. OK. You drop that finger by. Yeah. Just a signaling sound. Up we go. Up then. Plug that in. Up then. Out we go. And you've got to retain it. Yeah, especially that it's sort of, like, yeah, that's right, this must be difficult, it's less than ordinary and so on. But you pick these things up through your experience through this. I mean, if Bobism was taught in schools, you know, the world would be a much better place.
How do you know? Well, I don't know, you wouldn't come with all this baggage and all this shit, would you? You just clear points and you'd go about your life and do no harm, I don't know. But, yeah, you pick up these spiritual ideas and whatnot because you meet people who think it's true and they say it in a certain way. Jesus probably wasn't. Jesus wasn't a Christian. Well, no. No. If they'd only listened to Jesus and know what he said, then the world would be fine with their own. Or Muhammad. Yeah. Yes, there's been saints, saviours and seers all down through the ages, all going to save the world.
But they're all men, they're all nothing. No one has ever gone beyond those. You're not a thing. It's a matter of the fact you are no thing right now. You're not as far as you are. I still want to work it out. It's quite funny and then I just go, well, I quite enjoy it. Yeah, yeah. But you can't even then, like, just take it like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do it. That's how it comes up and expresses it. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because you, well, for me, I'm still looking for like the ideal way to express it, you know what I mean?
Until I build all these new concepts and I have all these ideas and ways of saying things and they're just a bloody potpourri of bloody appearances. Have you ever thought about sort of comparing it to like a seed growing from the ground into a little tree? That's my favourite of the other two. I'm not allowed to talk about the seed here. I'm not allowed to talk about meditation. You're not allowed to talk about that. Give me the seed thing, man. I'm you. I want a head seed thing. The seed thought it's bad. I'm going to miss out on the seed thing. You're coming on Thursday, are you doing?
Yeah. Mate, I'll open up with the seed. Okay, well, thank you. Here's a good one, mate. Come and see me tomorrow night, mate. Okay. I'll give you 50 bucks. But don't let anyone tell you it doesn't get better. Don't let anyone tell me it doesn't get better. No, I reckon it gets better. You know, I reckon you keep cleaning the mirror. Right. Yeah. It keeps getting clearer and clearer and brighter and brighter. That's been my experience. That's been my experience. Yeah. Because, you know, I just reflect on over time. You know, I think I've probably got it on the first night in some weird way, but I haven't come here for five or six years.
Well, you were when you came here. Well, I know, but... You know, you dwell, I reckon, you dwell more. You dwell more in what you are, you know. You spend more time there. Yeah. More time there. More time. More time. Your attention's not so much on the appearance, you know. It's unavoidable because I think it's attractive and it's bloody interesting and it's exciting, you know. The manifestation of the world? No, no. Oh, the... The way you are. The way I'm planted. Well, yeah, where you are. Yeah. It's a virus. And once it gets hold of you... Yeah, yeah. You're fucked. Yeah, yeah. That's like... Like, I remember...
I can't remember his name now. Who's the guy with beard? Brown hair? Brown hair, yeah. He's a DJ. Cameron. Cameron? Does the podcast? No. The concierge. The concierge. Jason? No. No, that guy. Not that guy. Oh, anyway. But he was saying, like, he walked in. He was like, you know, I'm a concierge. He was saying, like, he walked in one night. Gilbert. Gilbert. Not Gilbert. I can't remember his name. No. Walked out one night and he's like, he goes, do you ever get the feeling that you wish you had never freaking heard about this virus? Yeah. He goes, it's like, he goes, it's fucked. It's like a virus.
And I think, I think that night I kind of went, ah, gurus. I like, I think a couple of weeks later I had the thought of the Matrix. Yeah. You know that movie, The Matrix? Don't take the blue pill. And it's like, it's like somebody says something to you. Like, I thought about it because when I spent a lot of time in Peru, I went to Peru and drank hallucinogenics for a year. One of the things that kind of got me was that when, if somebody had said something like, ah, you know, one of, one of the things that you need to do in your journey is find the blue pearl, right?
Yeah. And the following day in ceremony, a blue pearl would arise. And I'm like, oh, how did that get in there? And then it's like, again, it's like words, everything that's said to you and like a guru or somebody saying something to you, everything that's said to you is, it becomes, it's all part of it. And it becomes, it's kind of like a virus, isn't it? Cause you can't, once hearing it, you can't un-hear it. It's impossible to un-hear it. And sometimes you wish like buggery you could un-hear it. But yeah, like it's, yeah, it's strange. Why would you want to un-hear it? No, but you wouldn't.
But some, that's the story that comes up sometimes. You're like, ah. One of the things that I like, I really sort of remembered and liked, I guess at some strange level, there must be some belief of like, but you're right at the beginning of your spiel every single time. And I've heard people say, I've never heard you do it. Which is like hundreds of times. You sort of say, what you're seeking, you already are. And I just, and I used to think, why do you say that? Like, what's the point? Like, is that going to help? Like, you know, okay. He doesn't know yet. He hasn't been ticked.
But actually it is, it does sort of quiet the mind and sort of relax you a little bit. I mean, there must be some sort of belief, I think so. That's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. Just even noticing, like seeing you over the last few months and just having your voice pop in my head every now and then during, during the day, it'll be like that, you know, or in my writing, because my writing again is a dialogue back to myself from God knows where. But, and that will, that will come out in like in moments or whatever it'll, that word will come out or that sentence will come out.
It's like a, you know, I'll remember you are already that. And then it stops. The writing will stop for a while. And, okay. And then I'll sit for a bit and something will start up again. And yeah. So it's. I mean for, and, you know, and I was just trying to, I remember that there was this phrase, you know, I'd hear Bob's voice and see him in my mind and I was trying to remember what the hell it was. I used to, you know, I literally used to cling to it. And, from that moment, I remember that I was just like, I'm going to do this.
I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And I've forgotten, you know, how many years. And it's that, what's wrong with right now if you don't think it back. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking when you said that. What was that thing I said? Yeah. What the hell it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what it was, I used to say that over and over and over.
Well you weren't thinking of it, was you? I probably say it to myself 50 times a day, not a lot, you know, like a lot. It's like these hidden mantras. Because I had so much fear, I remember he told me and I was trying to get out and I was up there going, he's tricking me and he said, look he's not that bright, he said I should be able to figure this out. I knew it was right, I knew it was right, I could see, you know, I'm just going, there's a way out. I remember before when you were saying that about the fear coming up, I've had that, the same thing and your mind's trying to, it's freaking out, like your mind just freaks out trying to corner it and grasp it.
Prior to that, if you'd asked me, I would have, I would have, you know, a few months before, if you'd asked me, and I'll be completely honest, I would have told you I've got two emotions, I love, I used to love my wife, and I get, I lose my temper, I get angry, I sort of knew there was something wrong with my anger. But that was it, that was my emotional repertoire. And I said, thank God I don't feel fear. And then, more and more, I realized over time, you know, and probably about the time it was at its apex when I sort of first came here, was that fear was the air I breathe.
It was like, I was saturated, it was like a, you know, it was like a, like a sort of fish, sort of being told that it's in water, you know what I mean? It just, you know, water, water. But I, God, I remember that first time, I could see it, and I was just there going, you know, and a lot of fear, because, and, you know, and there's a residual, it's not like you sort of, you know, when I heard it and I saw it, I calmed down, I could see it again, I came back, and I'd spent, you know, a few days, and the next week, couple of weeks, trying to work my way out of it, and I couldn't, and so there was an acceptance, and then I thought, well, why am I still, you know, why do I still get fearful, why do I do, you know?
But like, it's just, it's just, there's this weight, that's all, it's just, you know, this is, just, you know, it's, and you have an expectation that, you know, it's sort of, you have an expectation that everything should be different, that the sea should appear clear, but it doesn't, it's still plain, so you, you know, you expect that, oh, I'm going to be free from fear, I'm going to be free from bad thoughts, I'm going to be free from losing my temper, I'm going to be free, and actually, you do become, you know, more and more and more, the reality, the appearance, seemingly, you know, I can't remember the last time I was, maybe, maybe twice since I first heard of it, and even then, I just wasn't waiting for it.
So I get like, with, I get, I get angry sometimes when I'm seeing things, like, you know, the, the, like, Pete, Pete gets me really angry when he speaks, like, there's, like, my thoughts go, stop talking, like, I'm just like, like, I'll get, like, thoughts or whatever going, like, he sounds, he sounds like, I'm like, stop talking, like, he sounds like a salesman, I'm like, stop, stop trying to sell me on your, you know, like, okay, so, I'm like, just sitting here going, all right, but I, there's also something that, that knows that that discomfort's good, like, it's, it's purging, or, I don't know, and again, I can't control it, I can't do anything about it, whatever appears, appears, but there is a, over time, there seems to be a, yeah, it's like, there's releases, there's releases, I don't know what you want to call it, I don't know.
It just mellows. Yeah, it just mellows out. That's that awesome line you use in your opening Spielbott, where you say, it's the I am here talking to the I am over there, what, what is that? You reflect on that, and it's awesome, because, what is it? I'm not talking to anybody, I'm not talking to any mind, I'm talking to that I am that I am, that presence awareness that expresses through the mind as the thought I am, just of this, nothing else. I've learned that off my heart. That's really, that's a little... Because I've said that sometimes to you, Bob, I'm going, who are you talking to, Bob?
Bob's like, remember what I say, I'm like, I am, yes. But when you're talking to you, it's not here. But the amazing thing, you keep coming back, and again and again, it's good. Blood for punishment. Well, it's starting to show signs of wearing through, doesn't it? Yeah. Well, this meeting was really boring. Let's go round the pub. So how long are you still in Melbourne for? Two more days, I've been here for two days, I've got five days in total, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The first meeting I came to on Sunday, I came straight from the airport, for 34 hours. Wow, nice. Yeah. Did you eat?
Yeah. Well, what are you eating, you've got Thursday night? 35 hours in the year. Well, pretty much. Where did you eat the meal from? Edinburgh, Manchester, Manchester, London, London, Singapore, Singapore, Sydney, Sydney, Melbourne. Yeah. Not ideal. Friday morning you're back? I go back Friday morning, yeah. Yeah, that's where the meeting happens, yeah. Straight back to work. Yeah. Well, it's because of your tight schedule that I reckon you're just went for it. Yeah, I'd say. Can't dally here. No, I've done. You've gone right down to the meat and buns. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's between, you know, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub, I've been to the pub. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's between, I think you're right, focusing on, you know, the urgency. Certainly when I had my first meeting with Bob on the second day, my thought was, a thought really strongly came up and it was something that John Wheeler had said, I think, when he was talking about being here. Because I spoke to John on the phone and he said that when I was there, it was like, he was there he got the feeling like suddenly this is your opportunity you must take this opportunity just sort of that thought came up when i was speaking to bob that sort of feeling just came up like there's something to find out here and then minutes later yeah so yeah i'm glad i didn't have too much time now i suppose in a way there's an urge to want to relive those sort of feelings but those feelings are temporary aren't they they're not they're not to be relived they're not what it's about people have had some amazing experiences i set that up then yeah i had this experience i've got to get back to that but it's dead as soon as you've had it it's over it's dead yeah but there was a purpose why they're trying to get yeah well they're trying to get back to it they're missing out on what there could be another one coming up right now yeah well it's actually and that's the thing it's actually coming up all the time yeah like it's just like that brilliant stuff have a bit of a fresh yeah it's one day but now he's holding on to the old experiences you know what it was all about you know what was necessary to get out of it all you know trying to relive it just like trying to relieve yesterday it is that there's a real grasping isn't it hanging on to what you the past what you had what you thought you had what you thought who you thought you were it's all that like clutching yeah you know well I'm going down the hole and trying to grab on to anything that you can I recorded the meeting and then like three hours later sitting in a sushi bar I was listening back to it to the bit to the moment over again like now what what was that feeling nope that's the biggest signpost just sounds like a foolish Englishman grasping away something it's all looking here no big moments quite stunning how it how life keeps on kind of pointing you to what it's not mm-hmm like it's well it can't can't do anything but because it's constantly changing that yeah I love beauty Bob lovely thank you thank you thank you