This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original (above).
Oh, Kastori. Mick. Susan. Bill. Dave. Nelson. Graham. Gilbert. Hi. Who wants to kick it off? I might as well. Yes. I don't know, I was thinking, oh, will I ask for this? But just as I was walking in the gate, I was thinking, there's no... Like, in a way, if you really trust in that, then also you've just got to let go and trust that when, you know, this attachment to the mind and the conditioning will also just drop away at some point. And it's not, there's no me that can do that, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, who's going to let go? Yeah, good point.
I thought that's what you said, you can't do it. Yeah, but I was also saying, I've got to let go and trust. Oh, right, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So can you find any entity there that needs to let go? No, I can't find it when I look, but there is an entity there that, you know, does... As in, a thought keeps coming back, like, let go, or I want to let go, or... So who's the thinker of that thought? It's just coming up. Just coming up. So it's just a spontaneous activity, isn't it? No thinker of the thought. The thought's coming up. So is there any need to let go of an unthought thought?
No. A thought that comes up, plays around a bit, and you're attributing to the me or the other. And that's why... Have you seen That's a Fiction? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just let them play around. There's no one to let go. So where does that leave you? Just in the moment. In the moment, with whatever is appearing, or seemingly happening in the moment. Spontaneously, naturally. So in that, what we call a moment, that's just another concept of time. Mm-hmm. Past, present, future, what they call the three times. And there's actually not even one time. Because we look at, see, time itself is a mental concept. And people say they need to let go.
And then they say, how do you let go? They can't let go. They say, don't they? Mm. How do you let go? But if there was a hot iron on the floor, you picked it up, what would you do? Just drop it straight again. That would be letting it go, wouldn't it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's not hard at all. Mm. People say I can't, but the other day, they said, how simple is it? Mm. It's only one. And you can put that on many different ways, assuming letting go. So when you do let that piece of iron go, what happens? Just, there's nothing. There's just. Who can say it's hot or cold?
Mm. Or anything else about it? Mm. Well, that's picking it up and holding it for a while. So the same with the thoughts we hang onto. What if you don't know how to do it? What if you treated it like the piece of iron? Just dropped it. You don't have to struggle with it or work on it or relate it to something. That's when we say pause a thought. If you pause a thought, what happens without a thought? Nothing. You can't say it's good, bad, or anything. It's all about it. It's all about it. You can understand what Shakespeare was saying when he says there's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
So it's the thinking that makes it, or it's a ceremony that gives it some sense of reality, or what's another word? Substance. Substance, yeah. Substantiality. Without that thought, it just is. Now, another thought might come up, as you say, that might even say, let go or drop it. But is there another? There's an I that's letting it go or dropping it. I know the answer's no, but I've just got to think about it. Yeah. And the term for I or me, well, the belief that there's something substantial there, an entity. So you can't really. You see, the thought or the concept hasn't got any substance or any independent nature.
And thought comes up, and you realize that thought, an entity, is only a belief. What can you relate these thoughts to then? There's nothing, no sense. Some seeming entity to relate to. Well, do you think they're going to stay there? If they're not fixated on or related to? How can a thought that's a spontaneous emanation in this moment stay there unless it's fixated or related to something? So another way, you take a deep breath. Try and hold all of the breath. How long can you hold it for? Not very long. Yeah. What happens? You let it go. What's the big deal about letting go? Nothing, because it's just automatic, isn't it?
Yeah. It's natural. But we've got the concept there's something there with some substance, an independent nature, and we believe it is me or I. We don't want a let go of me or I, because we think that's our reality. That's our identity. So when they say, you've got to die now, turn to the next. Turn to the now. It's not a matter of dying to it. Recognise it doesn't exist, because even the idea of dying to it means there's something. It meant it seemingly had some substance, an independent nature of itself. But what substance has the thought got it? Nothing. Try and grasp a thought, yesterday's thoughts or last week's thought or a thought that's coming up now.
Can you grasp it? Mm-hmm. Fixate on it even? What are you fixating on when you look into it? There's nothing there substantial. With any independent nature of itself. They're all taking place in this space like awareness, aren't they? That's why they've got another label. They put it on space like awareness. Awareness like space or non-conceptual awareness. Awareness without any concept. Now, can you negate that awareness? No. Can you grasp that awareness? No. But are you unaware right now? No. So it just as is, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Just as it is. Give up the struggle. Relax. Mm-hmm. Relax in that relaxation, don't let it go. Thought, do thoughts cease altogether?
No. They keep spontaneously arising. We're not putting any reality into them, any fixation on them or any substance to them, any conceptual beliefs. They're going to be what they say is a natural state of unfixated awareness. These things are appearing in it, conceptual, they're not being fixated on or held onto. Natural relaxation there. A natural spontaneity. It's not necessarily conceptualized, not thought up. It just happens. It's just happening. With the, you know, I see when you're like, you know, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you know, I see when you ask the question about You know, what substance does the mean have?
Yes. And I can see Yes. I mean, speed Ilun around the last couple of days is, You know that a lot of it's conditioning and from various places yet kind of just goes in. So I can see and we asked that question. I thought, Okay, yes. The Oh, the me, I can see what is it, it's whatever story I would want to give it right now, whatever I would want to say, you know, Susan is this, she's that, she's the other, whatever, and that may be different tomorrow or different the day after, whatever. But I think what, there just seems to, and it's the time thing again, you know, there seems to have been an element of time that just, it's like backing up a computer, unfortunately, it's like this, so it's almost like memory, because in the moment it can be, yep, it's stories, it's which version do you want, but the memory seems to, I don't know what I'm really saying.
I don't even know what I'm saying. To give it continuity? Yeah, it seems, there's an appearance of continuity, I suppose, and yeah, I don't know, yeah. Well, you just said at the start, you know, a lot of it seems to be conditioning. Yeah. What conditioning is there if you don't think about it? Or is it thought, can you say there's any conditioning at all without a thought? No. So the conditioning. What you call conditioning is all thought-based, isn't it? Yes, but conditioning will still come up. Yeah, but thought-based, it's only thought. What substance does a thought have? Now, you really say it hasn't got any substance, or any independent nature, it's just what's appearing right now as a thought, and you say it is in memory, because if you ask yourself if there's a past, if you don't think about it, you know, you can't say there's a past without a thought.
So, and you can't live a moment ago, can't do any activity a moment ago, so it's already dead and gone. So it's fresh and new, same way a thought comes up, but if you see that that thought has no substance, thought, you know, you know, so you can't live a moment in the past, but you can recall it, and that is memory, and memory can be very useful, but when it's utilised in the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does go back. And if that energy belief goes in it, and I'm not good enough, all the negative factors go into it, I'm, you know, not good enough, I'm fearful, I'm anxious, I've got low self-esteem, all these thoughts come up and we believe, without question, we believe they have some substance of independent nature, well, you're locked into that memory border, but you look at it, investigate, you see the truth about it, you can't, you know, you can't live a moment ago.
but you can recall it and the only actuality it's got is why are you recalling it in this moment because if you investigate again and realise you can't live a moment ago, there's only actuality it's got what you give it in this moment. You can't realise if you look at that you can't even tell me what you thought a minute ago now unless you recall it because without that recollection recollect of it bringing it that memory into the moment you couldn't tell me what you thought of a moment ago all last week or last year, so you see it all the actuality all takes place in the moment that's the only actuality it's got you're going to anticipate and imagine the future and it's something that might happen and could conceptualise as some event that's likely to happen when you leave here or the next week, but you're not actually living a living 把 wi a moment in the future.
The only actuality that's got is why you're anticipating and imagining. So you see, you're looking at it, you've never moved away from this presence, awareness. It's only based on past, present and future thoughts. Memory and anticipation, imagination. And this past, or mind, what we call mind, is the me. Conceptual image we've got of ourselves. And it is the past. This me is the past. There's no me in the actual present. What's wrong with right now in the actual present, there's no me, there's no mind. Mind is the past, mind is the me. So it's all mind stuff. And you can't show me a thing called mind when you look at it.
You realise mind, you say my mind, you're attributing it to an entity and something called mind. But you recognise in the investigation that mind is only thought. And thought is only a vibration pattern of energy. It vibrates as concepts, words, concepts, ideas, images. So that's disbelieved in me. You see, it's got no substance at all or no independent nature. Thought-based. And without a thought, test that out, without a thought, you pause the thought for a moment. There's no me, there's no mind, but you haven't disappeared. So if you haven't disappeared, there's still that intelligence energy, that space-like awareness, or that knowingness, is still there. The thinking has stopped, you're not putting any conceptual labels on it.
It's just a pure functioning. A seeing, a hearing, a tasting, touching, smelling, a thinking. All going on spontaneously. Inevitably, in the moment. And out of habit, we keep relating it to the believed-in entity. To me, this conceptual image you've got about yourself, you understand that's a conceptual image, what are you going to relate it to? Solid and substantial, it can be related to. See, it hasn't got any substance or any independent nature. You're going to stay fixated on it. It's just a concept, just an image. It's nothing. So, not fixating on it. It's going to give. It's still going to vibrate into thoughts, feelings and emotions.
But you see that none of those have any substance or any independent nature. And out of that might come some concept or two. Don't go there, full stop, or something like that, just as a thought. But you recognise that thought is coming from innate intelligence energy, the spontaneous animation. So don't go there. Intelligence will tell you, don't go there. Like you put your hand on the hot stove, some time or other, as soon as you get near it now, the heat coming from it will be recognised. And intelligence will tell you, don't go there. Don't put your hand on the stove. In this moment, test yourself out and see how the functioning is continually going on.
Continually related to the me of memory, to a conceptual ending. And that's when the trouble comes about. All problems are problems of relations. So you see it. It just comes back again here to, you know, that's almost conditioning as well. The mind, because it can't conceive of awareness, it thinks it's it itself. But it's actually part of awareness. It's nothing other than awareness, not part of it, it is awareness. But if that awareness, life isn't, how many thoughts does a corpse have? How many feelings? What, you know? If that pattern through which this awareness is expressing or functioning, and even doing the pattern of shaping and forming, is not there, it needs a pattern to express through.
Just the same in that body. For the voice, for the thinking of the mind, needs a pattern to express through in that body. Okay? Yeah, but thoughts are awareness as is. Seeing is awareness as is. Hearing is awareness. Yes? Yeah. It's still the one essence appearing, patterning and expressing in all its diversity, in all its possibilities, never expressing fresh, fresh and new. The thought I see comes up, and that thought can't see. Seeing is going on, spontaneously, and seeing needs a pattern to express through. It's expressing through the eyes, which are expressing through the body, which are being translated through the thing we call mind.
It's still the one essence. It's never changed its shape or form. The other thing I was reading, sorry, the other, the other, well, what I was trying to do, I was reading one of Krishnamurti's books today, right? And he was talking about fear, and just, so I was trying to do what he was saying to do in the book, which was, when fear comes up, that, you know, basically fear is thought and time, which has been there. So fear is thought and time. And then it was saying, can you separate, because what happens when fear comes up, it's like there's the subject here, who's afraid, and the object is the fear, whatever the fear is, yeah?
And so what it was saying was, can you actually experience, well, the fear as such, without, or allow it without separating the two? And so I tried it, right? Sitting in the car, and I thought, okay, I'll have a look, and, well, it went nowhere, because I couldn't do it. Is that right? I don't know if it's even right or wrong, but it, like, can anyone else do that? Well, can you separate fear without relating it to somebody who is fearful, or something that you think is fearful? Well, no. I try to go, okay, Susan is fearful, and observe the fear, it just kind of gets lost pretty quick, it seems.
Well, it disappears up its own arse, really. Well, yes. Unless you get separated, you can't separate anything that's related to it. Right, okay, that's what I wanted to know, because I couldn't do it, and I thought maybe I'm supposed to be able to do it, or something. See, fear, this sensation, which we label, or fear, because we've had this sensation before, and we've given the label to sensation, it's fear because it's been experienced before, you know? But, so it's related to a past event, or a past experience. Now, if it's not related to anything, not labelled fear, what is it then? Nothing, but it's only problematic if someone here is labelling it as fear anyway.
Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. See, it's a sensation, but it's a fresh and new sensation, which we, because we think we are this, we've had this before, instead of leaving it as fresh and new, where it'll move on, we're related to this image we've got about ourselves, you know? That we've had this sensation before, and did this, you know? So, if it's not related, not divided, what can you say about it? Well, nothing. I mean... Absolutely nothing. If you're not saying, putting any label in it, what's going to happen to it? Can it stay there unless you've got that idea or concept, this is fear? No, in that moment it goes.
Yeah. So you see, what it actually is, just a present sensation, but you can't even put that word sensation on it, you know? Just a movement, an activity of knowing, or a movement, or a cognising. Anything that's cognising. Christianity says that the observer is the observed. The seer is the seen. You know? There is only seeing, there is only observing. There is only concept, seeing, you know? It's seemingly divided, but the thought I see becomes the subject, and I see this, becomes the object. But when you realise it can't be a seer without seeing, it can't be a subject if it wasn't for the object.
Yeah. It wasn't for the seeing. And the seen is the, becomes the object, it can't be an object if it wasn't for the seeing. There can't be fear if it's not a subject, and it's not divided, seemingly divided into subject, object. So it's the actual functioning that's going on all the time. So if there's no relationship, relationship is relative too. Always relative, relating to something, relativity. No relationship. What must it be? Sorry, you're asking me. If there's no relationship, what must it be? Well, just what is. Just what is. Just what's there, yeah. What is unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. Pure intelligence energy, or pure cognising or knowing.
Pure awareness. But out of habit, the belief in this being, we try to give it some substance, some shape and some form. Some belief that this me is an entity with some substance, an independent nature. But the thought I see can't see, the thought I hear can't hear, the thought I am aware can't be the awareness, the thought I choose can't choose. So that thought, that we've added concepts onto, I'm Bob, Australian, a good fellow, hasn't got any substance or any independent nature. It's just a conceptual image that the belief, that the belief that has some substance and independence is going into and making it seem to be real.
But the only reality it's got is in the essence and the energy that's patented shape and form. It's the words, concepts, ideas. Which we've learnt through these words, picked them up along the way. And the belief has got to do with it, that it's real. It's a real entity. There's an ego, a soul centre. And all our problems, all our problems are problems of relationship. A belief in this separate, separate entity. When you recognise that and really see and understand and know that this can't stand on its own as some substance or any independent nature, you recognise what are you left with? Not relating anything.
What are you left with? You're left with a non-dual, pure, functioning, intelligence energy. Non-dual. One without a second. Can you go any further than that? No. But that experience has been here. So when that experience is seemingly not here, there's a scrambling, you know, or something to... I mean, I know you've never left it, but the storm clouds. Storm clouds are going to come and they're going to go. But again, it's the belief in the me that then has... And the preference against storm clouds and... Yes. So what is the storm cloud? The storm cloud is something that preferably is not happening. Yes. That's the problem.
Yes. But, you know... And again, yeah, again, that's someone having a preference for that and even observing that. But it's the happy cloud, the peaceful cloud. Still a cloud. It's better though. Still a seeming cloud. I like that one. And? I like that one though. Yeah. But what are both the storm cloud and the light cloud? What are they? Yeah. Awareness. Yes. Patterns of that awareness appearing as different. We go back to the that. Is there anything that is not that? No. But the mind comes up and says, I don't reckon that's that. Yeah. Because it's bad. But what is the mind coming up? It goes on forever.
What is the mind coming up? What is? The mind coming up and says, isn't that also? There's only that. It's that also, but you're seeing it as different. Out of the old habits and all the rest of it, you think there's something different. But it's not two. There never was two, never will be two, never could be two. So that's what we were taught in school as well. I reckon that's... I reckon it's the same. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. I reckon that's partly conditioning.
That's what you're taught in school. Use your brain. Yeah. That's where you'll succeed in life. That's where it's all happening. Isn't... That's part of the education system. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's all happening. But what is the brain? Isn't it just an instrument like the eye? Where the thoughts... Where the thoughts coming up and translated from. That's one thing. It's only... One thing I don't know. One thing I don't know is thinking. Thinking. Thinking. Thinking. Thinking. That's the question. That's the question. There. Can the eye see? Can the ear hear? Can the brain think any thought? Or do anything? But the eye does see. No. The instruments through which the seeing is happening.
But does the eye say, I see? No, the eye doesn't say, I see. So, does the brain say, I'm thinking? Does it? It's the... I wonder... It's the... The eye is the instrument for which the seeing is happening and it's translated by the thought. The thinking coming up is not the brain, it's translated by the thought. No, it appears, it comes up that there's a thinker. Yes. And the thinking and that they are two different things. Yes. Good. Recognise that. You know the nocturnal, let the thinking happen. Just the way it seems, you let the seeing happen. It's just another expression of that intelligence energy, or the cognising emptiness.
With all that's going on, have you actually moved away from presence awareness? Have you moved away from that? What do you need to do? You need to see that it's all that, Bob. Are you seeing right now? Yes. What you're seeing is all that? That is the seeing, the real seeing, isn't it? So I don't need to do it yet. Yes, the mind is just always, as Susan was saying, splitting it up. That's what's become all our lives, you know, splitting it up, splitting it up. Can I ask a bit about the usual thing that I ask about, which is free will? You know, like when somebody says, you've got to do the enquiry, you've got to enquire into this thing.
Yes. Right? But then, if that enquiry comes up, there's nobody actually doing that enquiry, is there? Right, no. So when somebody says, do the enquiry, Yeah. they're not talking to me. No. No. It's a point of intelligence coming up. Right. Look along these lines, you know. And you'll either resonate with it, hear it, or you'll just ignore it. But then, so the enquiry happens, or it's something resembling an enquiry happens, in its very patchwork form. But it's not, there's no me doing that. There's just an enquiry taking place that realises that nobody's doing an enquiry. Yeah. So that's what we're saying all along, there's no me.
Never was a me. Yeah. Never will be a me. Never could be a me. Yeah. It's the one essence appearing, patterning, and expressing as everything. Is it? See the sensation come up, the thought comes up, I see. Mm. Yeah. Thought comes up, I hear. Thought comes up, I'll do this, I'll do that. But until we recognise there's no head of the dead, then the thoughts will still come up. Yeah. And do that. But you know there's no personal doership. There is no free will, there is no one to have free will. And while they're telling you that and teaching you that, you're keeping you in the trap.
Which all these, most of these teachers do. Yeah, there's that little... If you want to stay in the trap, go along, do it. There's, I guess... The investigation is, who's it happening to? Yeah. And it's always... Ask yourself the question, who's it happening to? It's always... And the answer is always me. It's a bit tough on your seeker, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And you start to say, well, who is this me? Me is the cause of my problems, who is the me? And I guess the stuff, like this... I guess my question was that, you know, this whole seeking business or whatever the hell that is.
Um... I'm noticing that the more that this happens, whatever's happening, the more destabilized the thinking is becoming. Like, really, like... But it's only in this moment if I'm thinking of it, if there's a thought coming up and saying it's really destabilized, it's referencing a past moment, which again is simply thought, because in this moment actually nothing's happening and it's all fine. But, yeah, I guess the trick is not to have the but. The trick is not to have the but. Yes. As soon as the but comes, you haven't full stopped. I know. Yeah. Subtle, looking for the next thought. And it's also like there's a thing within me that wants to be.
It wants to communicate how painful this whole thing is, but at the same time by doing it, it's a trap because it just keeps it alive. Yeah. Well, that's what I need to ask the question, who's it happening to? Yeah. The obvious answer is it's happening to me. So what's the... So wait a minute, that guy up there told me there's no me. He's been telling me for months there's no me. Is he right or is he wrong? I'll find out for certain. So you have another look. Yeah. Yeah. And it's that whole... And then you see... It's the whole past thing as well. If I'm sitting here stewing about an event that happened yesterday or the day before or this morning or whatever it was and going, oh, I'm losing my shit, you know, stuff's going bad, blah, blah, blah.
Like it's just... And it's not me that's actually thinking anything. These thoughts are just so commanding. Then what have you heard here for the last several months? Obviously not a lot. I mean, yeah, but... But don't you hear that time is just a concept? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. As soon as you're relating to time, investigate time again. Yeah. I investigate time a lot, man. Well, is there a past if you don't think about it? No. There isn't. Is there a future? No. So can you live a moment ago? It doesn't exist. Yeah. So you see that... I can say that, but I don't know that I see that fully yet.
Who would see it? No one. If there's no one to say there's time, no one to see it... Yeah. Where are you left with? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what you're left with. Yeah. Yeah. Right in this timeless moment. Yeah. Not relating it to anybody. Do you think you can go any further than that? Settle. Settle down. I want you actually out. When I first came here, I don't know, years ago, Bob said on the first day, not, not much will change, you know, it's going to be the same. Yeah. And I thought, Ah, yeah, I'll come a few more times and I'll really understand what he's talking about.
understand what he's talking about. I'll get it. One day I will get it. One more meeting. You know, one more book, one more whatever. But you know, this is it. It's like spiritual crap. Not much is going to change. You've done the investigation many times. Many times. And you've seen that, you know, this is a phantom. Time doesn't exist. That's all you need to do. You don't keep punishing yourself and saying, well, it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like that. It doesn't seem to me that you dwell in that just for a few moments there. Just dwell in that and know that you've investigated it and you've seen it.
Because you're always coming up with like, yeah, yeah, but, yeah, but, you know. But you've seen it. Yeah. You've checked the house. You've checked for the foundations. You've brought the inspector in. You've hit the foundations with a stick. No termites. Solid ass. You go inside again. Just going to go and have one more look and make sure they're there. I've written three books of investigation. It doesn't matter. You just go back up to the top again. Just before we put down the deposit, let's just go and have a look at these foundations one more time. And bring the inspector in. And we'll go and have another look.
Yeah. It's just knowing that you've done the investigation and you've seen it. That's it. There's no becoming. Like, coming another ten times is not going to give, you're not going to feel a lot of difference. You're not going to see a lot of difference. It's knowing the truth of things that sort of sets you free. It's the knowledge. It's like looking at the sea. It looks blue. Investigate. It's clear. Stand back. It's blue. It's clear. I don't know. I guess I have- You're just gonna stay pretty well like you are. You've seen it. I know you've seen it. Yeah, but like I am, there's a little bit on the messy side at the moment.
There's what? No it's not entirely. There's a bit on the messy side at the moment, so it's not entirely desirable. Yeah. How old are you? Huh? 40. How old are you? Just turned 40. Just turned 40? Yeah. A few months back. How much living have you done? A lot. Have you? Living? I don't know. Is that a true question? Have you? Well, have you done anything? No. Well, have a look at it. What did you do when the sperm and ovum came together? That cell doubled. That's when life started in that particular pattern. Sperm and ovum penetrated the ovum and the blueprint that formed you now started to double, that cell and redoubled and began to form.
What were you doing about it then? Nothing. What were you doing when you were born? No. What have you done ever since then? I like to think that I've done things. Yeah, well, you're back in trouble. We'll see what you've got to think of. But see, that's what you've got to do. Realise there's no moment that you can say, I've lived. You've been lived as that pattern and lived and experienced that pattern all the way through. So all the things that have happened and have seemingly been done that you take the praise and blame for, that's a lot of crap because you had no say in it whatsoever.
As Christ says, which of you by taking thought can outwit one's crew, give it to his stature? That's the answer. I sat in a fricking hut in the jungle in the Amazon and wrote for six months. And my enquiry in then was going back into the past and seeing moments in the past and finding... And I basically came to and trying to find a point where I made a... And I couldn't find anything. I couldn't find a me that had... I couldn't do it. But then that... And then I've written about this for two years and I do the same thing. If I read over the last 500 pages that I've written, it would be the same thing over and over and over again.
I say the same thing over and over again. I can't find... But there's still something that doesn't believe that, that I've done it correctly. You see, you're 40 years old and you've looked for the answer in the mind from 38 of those 40 years when it's so first time to read. Never ever found it. Are you a fricking idiot? Bob? I started to wonder that. Ladies and gentlemen. How big is your book? No, have you? You're not stupid. Just as I say you've done all these things. It's kind of very intelligent things, you know. You've done them over and over and over. Well, you're not a dill.
But what you're just doing, you know, I've looked hard and done everything. I've been honest and sincere. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong direction. Because you've worked out so many other things in your mind. But this you've never been able to work out. No matter how hard you try, how earnest you're being and how, what's the other word, consistent you're being. You're looking in the mind constantly and never found the answer. Well, maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction. And then if that comes up, well what other way can I look? And you realise then by looking that there's... Any way I look will always be in the mind.
Always. Because it's the nature of the mind to vibrate. And as it continues to vibrate, that's why you'll never find the answer. It'll either be good, bad, pleasant, painful, happy, sad, loving, happy. Watch your mind and see how it focuses. You'll never find the answer there. And it might dawn on you then, well maybe I'm looking in the wrong direction. The only direction way outside of the mind is full stop. Pause the thought and the mind has ceased for a moment. Just realise that when you pause the thought. And you realise in that moment, I'm still seeing. I'm still seeing. I'm still hearing. I'm still being aware.
Still tasting, touching, smelling. But thinking has stopped. So, then Mr. Dornier, well I was outside of the mind then. And that's all the mind is, is thinking. If thinking has stopped and livingness is still going on. You see, you can't be the thinking or the thought. You are that livingness in which thought appears. Plays around and disappears. It doesn't mean to say thoughts, feelings. And then all that 40 years you've lived, all this has gone on. It's the same way. Seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thinking. Things have appeared, things have disappeared. All sorts of, all appearances, possibilities have happened. But you realise that you've never done a thing about it.
It's all happened spontaneously and naturally. So, you're not going to change anything. But in not relating it to a fictitious entity that you think has some power. An independent nature of itself which is continually pointing out to you that it hasn't got any power. Because you, you know, you can't find the answer there. So intelligence is going to say, no you don't go there. Keep cultivating this presence awareness. And it will translate into thoughts. Don't go there or false stop. Or that's just, that's just a concept. Or that will translate as those thoughts. So, say that again. What will translate as those thoughts? The intelligence energy vibrating pattern will try and translate into thoughts.
It might say don't go there or false stop. Or that's. Just a concept. Or it might even think anything. Just be the stillness, you know. But the livingness still goes on. But there's no, there's no entity that's ever lived the moment. You are that cognising emptiness. That space-like awareness. That one essence of superior expression. That intelligence energy. All these conceptual labels we put on it. All point it to the. Is there an actual, I don't know if this is. Is there a seeing? Is there a feeling? Does anything change? Yeah. Well, the only thing that changes is constant change. The only thing that really changes is you lose that belief.
Yeah. It's so simple. We miss it. It's absolutely simple. Awareness, the way that awareness displays itself is ever fresh and never new. Yeah. It's not separate from awareness. It is awareness. So. The way that awareness displays itself is the gnosis, the knowing. Ever fresh and never new. There's no entity there. But because the mind is dualistic, it seems to divide it all up into seer and seen or knower and known. And it's dualistic. And you can't get from duality to non-duality. And there is no duality in non-duality. There's only one awareness. There's not two awarenesses. Yeah. It's self-aware. It doesn't need an agent called Mick or Gilbert or whoever.
One of the things that, like, I think the last week I spoke about is that when I'm listening to people in my mind, and I realise today that I do it with reading as well, when I'm reading, there's a void in my mind. There's a void in my mind. There's a void in my mind. There's a voice in my mind that's tracing the words. And so that I can only read at the same speed at which I speak. Because I'm going, I... Is that on a map or whatever it is? But the thing is... Those are long stories, man. No, no, no. I know. They're fictitious entities.
Yeah, no, but what I'm saying is the perception of it. Of actually reading. Like, I know the words. I shouldn't be tracing. Do you know what I mean? So there's something in between me and... There is no separation. Awareness is not divided. Ever. It can't be divided. The observer. Just have a look at this. Look around the room now. Tell me what you see. Label things or... Yeah. How many things can you label? Yeah. One. Everything, I guess. You can label everything. Go on, label everything without looking at it now. You're saying that. Oh, okay. Um, well, I would just name as many things as I can or...
Yeah. Yeah, like cupboard and mirrors and chandelier-y things and thing and chairs and equal and... Eight thousand six hundred to get them in. Yeah. I was just missing the point of this. Well, you see, you realize... You can't label everything. You can't label everything. But you've registered everything. Yeah. And intelligence has registered everything. Look at that. So you see, that... Without the label, when you say your reading's not keeping up with what's in the label, realize it's been resonated with or registered. Even these words that come out. Any words you hear, there'll be a resonation with them, but you won't know what... Remember what every word is.
But it's been resonated or registered. Again, there's no point out that the intelligence... In that intelligence, it's greater than the thinking. Look around the room without labeling and you know... Realize you know whatever it is without putting the label on. Do that and see. Yeah. So, when you're reading, resonating with the words, you know, what's resonated or recognized will be there. Mm. The other words... Won't be a concern to them. Though they've all been registered. Yeah. I guess it was just my point with that was just to comment on the different way that people can read. Like, in the sense that some people will read but won't repeat everything in their minds as they read it.
Yeah. You know, not hear their own voice mimic in their minds as they're actually reading them, but will just read and absorb it directly. Yeah. Or... And so... Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a difference, I guess. Yeah, there'll be a difference. But... Something's... Why... Why do you bother discriminating what others do? If you say you can't do that at the moment. Mm. Why are you discriminating being concerned with others that are appearing in your awareness? If that awareness wasn't there, would you see any others or know any others? So, yeah. That's why people will say, oh, I don't know what it is in his mind or in that, you know.
Of course they don't. I guess... I guess... Each is a pattern, different expression of that intelligence only. Yeah. I guess that what I was saying kind of comes down to the base idea that I think that I'm doing something wrong. Yeah. Yeah. In that I'm not perceiving things correctly or seeing things correctly. Well, you're coming back to the belief there is a separate entity, an individual, a person there that's doing something. Going back to the base. Who's it happening to? Me. Wait a minute. Where is this me? Am I this body? Can I find a point in this body anywhere that I can say this is where I begin, this is where I am?
I can't. Can you? Am I this mind? It's not there when I'm asleep or under an anesthetic or unconscious. I don't disappear. I'm not... That's not the end of me without that thing called mind. Vibrating pattern of energy. I'm not the body. I'm not the mind. I'm not the body. I'm not the mind. I'm not the mind. I'm not the mind. I'm not the mind. I'm not the mind. Am I a person, an individual? There's a substance in the better nature. I'm not an individual or a person. Without that life essence, I couldn't see, hear, taste, touch, smell, breathe, heartbeat, anything at all. So the only thing left is that life energy itself.
The same life essence that's patterning, shaping, warming, everything. The tree, the flower, the insect, the bird, me, you, the animal. The tree, the flower, the insect, the bird, me, you, the animal. These two things so the same life essence without that life essence. they all become inanimate objects that break down, fall apart anyway. Just as we ask this question of you, yeah, but what's all that going to do for separate little me? You know, I know I've returned to that many times over the years. Ya, ya. I don't verbalize it that way, but you know, I know that's been my response. Ya. What about now?
You realize that intelligence has this... brought that separate little me into existence and lived it and expressed it all the way through and your life hasn't been too bad after all, has it? Have you got 20 minutes? Except when you bring the me in and relate it to the me. But you know, you wouldn't be dead for quids, would you? No, no. And then we put some concept on it and think it should be this way or that way or some other way. But if it brought you this far, do you think it's going to let you down now? No, Bob, no. But it could.
You could be killed, hit by a bus tomorrow. Yes, even right now. But you haven't, have you? It's brought you through with so many things. You know, just understand tomorrow never comes anyway. Well, it doesn't if you're hit by a bus. But I mean, all these things, how many me and Mrs. have you had from buses and all sorts of other things in your life? Quite a few. And all these... relationships and concepts and ideas and events that have gone on. It's brought you through those, despite what you thought how it should be. And that particular path, certainly it was not a path, but there's no path, no destination.
Where you're at right now is where you are. And it's only a me, though, it's only a belief again in the me that can say, this has been good in my life, this has not been good. It's only the belief in the me again, because otherwise, you're going to die. You couldn't say that. There's nothing to say. And it's the belief in the me that's putting the brakes on. Stopping the natural, spontaneous living that's happening. Oh, I can't do that or I won't do that. I shouldn't or I should if I read. This is not good enough, is it? Just a point on thinking, Bob.
Because I can relate a little bit to what you say. I do the same thing. I read and then something that back here follows what I'm reading. I don't really want to progress until I've understood. This, you know. But that's really not relevant to the investigation, because you know that whether you think like that or in any other way or whatever you think of in terms of concepts or ideas or whatever, you're never going to get there. Because there's you looking for something or trying to work something out. And the words are never it. It's like studying physics and then working out that, ah, I can look further into this.
I'll go and do atomic physics, which then breaks into particle physics and molecular physics. You know, you can just keep going. And they're all concepts. Yeah. As Bob said, you'll never, ever get it with the mind. You'll never get this with the mind. And it's like that. I guess it's too like when people have like a really... Have you thought about what I've said, mate? Because you're just too quick in coming back with a comment. I think I do have to do that. That's probably the thing. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do.
I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I'm getting a bit of a... Whatever. I think we're getting a bit of a... Where do we stop? You said you were a slow thinker. ... came out straightaway with a bloody comic, five seconds of silence, then you can speak.
No, that's not how it happens. No, I was just going to say that it's kind of the same thing with people when they have like a... When you have like a real... Like a strong intellectual grasp of advaita concepts or something like that. becomes really dry. Like you said it's not the concept. The concept is like the beauty of like the amazingness of life but when you become like have those really dry concepts about time doesn't exist and blah blah blah. Like it becomes really. Yeah. I'll tell you something funny. I just visited my daughter up in Baton's Bay, the wild one. It takes 10 hours to drive and 10 hours to come back.
I was up there for a week. So I've got 20 hours of driving time and on my iPhone I got 40 episodes of Urban Guru Cafe. So I did that about half an hour each. So that's about 20 hours. I reckon I listened to all of them. I heard you and Gilbert and Shapiro and a couple of women and that was great just listening but I thought wow how much can be talked about? You know you can make an encyclopedia out of it. And then I've got this scratchy LCD which I've played 380 times which has got your steel on it. And I thought no I don't dare play that because it jumps and it skips and I just stick it in this thing where I in the console and it's all scratched anyway.
I thought I'll just play it. I only had to listen to the first 10 second block where you say there's only one thing that you're sure of and that's your own being. And that was enough really. And then everything just appears on top of that. And that's quite evident now. So I could have been listening to rock and roll or anything. I didn't need those other 20 hours of Urban Guru Cafe. Next time I'll take your CD out first and slip that in. Yes mate? I did grow up to rock and roll. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I do love that thing about the labels.
I don't know it's just because when you take away the labels there's just this all I don't know it's just so that always gets me like because you just feel there is no separate me there's just all of this and here we all are and we're all connected there's no individual me's or yeah and the labeling thing There's a bit of me. There's a bit of me. There's a bit of me. There's a bit of me. There's a bit of me. There's everything in this room. Yeah. Yeah. Which is all weird and crazy and amazing. But the boundaries of the limiting factors we put on the world.
Yeah. Either good or bad. Pleasant, happy, sad. Nature. Nature hasn't formed a reference point. It hasn't come out the past everything. Day doesn't fight with May. Night. Winter doesn't fight with summer. Stillness doesn't fight with sound. Movement. Movement movements doesn't. Silence doesn't fight. So I'm getting stuck up in the sun. I'm not going to leave nature. I'm going to leave the moon. I'm going to follow it. I'm going to follow it. I'm going to follow it. I'm going to follow it. See there's nothing to relate to in nature. So you know it functions everything resolves itself in nature. Yeah. And with us two, it's the same.
We're not relating to it you know, as Maggie says, everything is perfect to resolve. He called it the unborn mind. The unborn mind is when before the mind the thinking comes in or it's not a conceptual. Everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn. Yeah. He says, why exchange the unborn for thought? And you can just have that, just, yeah, as soon as you take away those labels and just be in that unborn labelness, lessness, it is just all this. And after that, yes, and you recognise, that that resonance you recognise, doesn't matter whether the labels are there or not, because, you know, you can't separate, any of this content, you cannot separate from space.
Space is emptiness, cognising emptiness. And something cannot come from nothing, and all this content appears in space, it is the content of space. So the content is nothing but space either. We put the labels, names and forms, and take the words to be the real. Without that label, there's this. Is that thing as good or bad? Is there such a thing as sun or moon or anything like that? Or fear or anxiety or stress? Without those labels? Present functioning sensations, you know, happenings, occurrences, is-ness. When we habitually put the labels on, is it that then, yeah, like as you said, it doesn't matter if the labels go on or not, but is that something that sort of hooks into, hooks us into it?
Yeah, I mean, probably no point in even discussing it, it's probably just getting. No, you can understand that the labels, that's all they are. You're not sitting in the word chair, the label. What you're sitting in is a chair. You know, you can, the labels will still be used, but you, we've got the belief that the word is the thing. You know, you say, I'm Kasturi, you've got this image about yourself, and think that label is what you are. Mm. And it's like the labels come with memories or something. Yeah. And then, like actually this, say this, this body is innocent, but the label comes with all this baggage kind of thing.
But whereas if you just tune into what is actually here, it's just. Yeah, it's not even a body. Yeah. And that's the label. Mm. Yes, the spontaneous functioning happens. It should always happen. The little child before he's got any words, you know, he's eating, he's drinking, he's singing, he's tasting, touching. Smelling. He's not discriminating anything because he's got no word. But he's getting on all right. The living is occurring. He's taken care of. Oh, sorry, Bob. I was just thinking of something really bizarre that I watched on TV tonight. It's just the silliness of life and the baby was okay. Someone walking down the wedding aisle.
Oh, sorry. Did you see? With a baby in a wedding aisle. With a train, you know, a veil train. And she strapped, tied her baby. Yeah. And she reached the trail of the wedding. She had had a blind date specifically the third day, then . Yeah. But that baby wouldn't have cared. I was happy. Silliness. Oh, God. I thought they had babies after they got married. So the best question to come back to really is, or isn't, Who am I? Isn't it? Is it? Well who's asking the question? You realise that the questioner is that very question. Who am I? If you're not asking that question, is there a questioner?
So the questioner and the questioner have cancelled each other out. So you're left with that, what you actually are. But when you start looking for who am I, who am I, you go on and on and on. Looking for the answer in the mind will bring up all sorts of concepts, ideas. Well yes, exactly. People have done that for years and years. Nobody's ever realised the simpleness of it. But the questioner is the question. There is no questioner. There can't be a questioner without a questioner. There can't be the questioner without a questioner. Yeah, because if you say who am I, you don't see blah blah blah.
And even though you debunk each one, you can still go on forever. Yeah. You can't debunk each one because there's, you know, 40 years of history. So you can, there's plenty. Or supposed history, whatever. So if they both cancelled each other out, where are you? Right here, right now, present and aware. Isn't that so? And you don't have to put those labels on. Because you can't negate that right here or right now because it's a concept of time. And you can't negate the being present and aware. That's natural. Nobody's unaware. Nobody's absent right there. All present and all aware. So you're immediately in your natural state.
So it's who's asking the question. So it's not who am I, but who's asking the question. Yeah, yeah. There's a recipe. Yeah, yeah. A bit like, what was your name? Kasturi. Kasturi, yeah. Something about the faith when she walked through the gate, you know. It's just, it's also just the faith. The faith of not having to get a recipe, you know. Just come back to the, yeah, just, yeah. Well the pointers are helpful though. Yeah, I use them every day, yeah. Book of recipes. It just keeps coming back to the fact that we had nothing to do with it. So I don't know if the pointers are very helpful at all actually.
But they come, yeah. But they come up. They come to me, yeah. And then they still rise up. Or in some ways they don't. I'm saying they shouldn't come to you. I just don't know if there's actually, if they have a point. Yeah, the point is, as you just said, you recognise there is no one that has nothing to do with it. Yeah. Ordinary awareness, there's nothing wrong with it. We don't, we don't seem to trust it. As you say, it's too simple. Yeah, it's too simple. Every time we refer experiences or, you know, experiences or events to this me, we're stirring up like a bucket of water.
You stir it up, stir it up, which is full of all the words you've learned, all your memories, and it stirs it up and it becomes this churning thing. Just leave it alone. Stop referring everything to this image of self, which doesn't exist. Even if you don't investigate and see that it doesn't exist, just accept that it doesn't exist. And it'll calm down. And ordinary awareness, seemingly comes to the fore. And there's nothing wrong with it. And just recognising that over and over, something sinks in in its way. It's just like, what's that saying with the snake and the rope? You just know. Like, with thoughts, like, for me, every now and then, like, there's a few different ways, like, thought will arise or whatever and then...
I'm going to say this wrong somehow. But, like, thought will arise and either I notice post it happening that I've just been wrapped up in this emotional turmoil and in my thoughts and whatever, or I have another... There's another state that happens where thought can just arise, but there seems to be a separation from it. Like, it's seen as thought automatically as opposed to... Yeah. So, as Bob points out, we need to recognise the difference between... that innate intelligence and the thinking. The thinking is like secondary. It represents things to the mind. It represents the present. It's a secondary thing. It can never be the immediacy because it's time.
You can't get to the timeless in time. And if the mind is time, why try and use the mind to get to the timeless? The timeless is always here. It doesn't have a beginning or an end. It's the natural perfection of all there is. But, you know, we stir the bucket up. It is quite a ritual. The assumption that I'm a seeker is the problem. The search is the problem. And if you really logically look at it, even if there is a thing called enlightenment, everybody wants enlightenment, the very thing that obscures the enlightenment is the seeking of it. The conceptualising of it. Alright, so what do you...
I've been doing this seeking thing pretty full on now for a couple of years. Do I just stop? Right? Do I just stop or will that just happen when it happens? It's time. You're talking about time again. Did you see what he was talking about? Yeah, I understood when he was saying it. If he asked me to repeat what he said now... What do you have to do and who's going to do it? There'll be a natural cessation, won't there? Yeah, yes. So you see that... Yeah, alright. The natural cessation just arises naturally when there's a recognition that there is no seeker. We seek because we think we're seekers.
Because we think that we're these limited individuals that need to get something at some point. And that's always in time. And we need to get this thing, whatever it is, this enlightenment or realisation or spiritual knowledge or whatever, and we think we're going to get it. And in that belief in this person who thinks he's going to get something, there's no way out of that. Because that's all purely conceptual. Yeah. And that's a never-ending cycle of shit. It's constantly going around in circles, searching for something. Who's searching? Who's the seeker? It's self-centeredness. And logically, self-centeredness is the assumption... Because there hasn't been an investigator, there's an assumption there at the centre of all this activity, me and the world and everything, there's a self, there's somebody there.
There's an assumption. So it's simply pointed out and encouraged, have a look, see if you can find anything within the substance or independent nature that can stand on its own and say, this is what I am. And if you seriously do that investigation, and make that your... your claim for everything else secondary, then how can you fail? Because there is... The Buddha says it, there's no self-nature anywhere. He's not saying there's no self-nature anywhere except right there where you are. He's saying there's no self-nature anywhere. So it gets like... And that needs to really be investigated. There's no self-nature anywhere, you know. You can go to a little seed which bursts into a plant, or a big gnarly old gum tree, or the tides, coming and going, the blossom, the fruit coming, the planets.
You know, where is the... Where is the point of reference for any of that? You know, the roots on that gum tree just build out towards the water, knock the rocks aside. The green shoot breaks the earth open and collects heat from the sun and throws out its brain tendrils. You know, what is he doing there? It's intelligence, just intelligence. And it's just intelligence here, and it's just intelligence there. There is only intelligence running the whole show. So like you were saying, you know, pointers are great until you need them. Otherwise they're just thoughts popping up, like any other thought. Everything is just popping up.
There's dialogue with you and Bob, or you and me. Where's the volition in that? There's no volition. It's just happening right here and right now. And right here and right now is not hard to grasp. Who would grasp it? How can it be any other way except right here and right now? I guess one of the things that's tripping me up a little bit is when you say there's no volition in it, I kind of think that there can't be any volition in it when you're looking at something in the past. And whenever you're doing the inquiry, you're looking at the volition of a moment in the past, and the actual inquiry is itself spontaneous.
So... It's not a matter of there's no volition. There's no volition. There's no self-volition. No personal volition. Because there is that, like, you know, where the tyre hits the road, that... There's a... This point, this present moment. Yeah. It's like there's no personal volition, but all there is is volition, and all there is is... And so what does that mean? It's not time-bound, not place-bound? No. Because you can't find it in thought. No person? Doesn't that mean it's spontaneous? Yeah. You can't relate to anybody or anything. So spontaneity has no beginning, no ending. Because it hasn't got... It's not time-bound. You can't say it's beginning.
You can't say it's ending. No, it's all spontaneous. This total manifestation is a spontaneous emanation. It didn't begin billions of light-years ago. It's a spontaneous happening, ever fresh. That's what I tell you. Ever fresh, ever new. Spontaneous. But the continual, well, it seems as though it's gone on for years and years and years. But it hasn't. Look at your body. You haven't got the same body you walked into this room yet. Cells have been dying and being replaced. You certainly haven't got the same body as you had last year or the year before. So is any personal volition growing it? Or anything at all growing it?
Thoughts grow it? Memories or mind? No, it's spontaneous. Because it's not the same body had about it. Not the same body had last year. Not the same body when you were in the womb. We say you were in the womb, but what with the now you? Ever, never. It's always been spontaneous. Timeless. And that goes for the whole manifestation. But what it's all appearing in is the emptiness. The cognising emptiness. That emptiness is suffused with intelligence or cognising or knowing. Because to see the way it pattern shapes and forms not only with the body but everything else, implies it's suffused with intelligence. And intelligence is an activity.
Knowing. Knowing means you're knowing right now. Not knowing this. And knowing implies it's something that's going on spontaneously. So any activity is a movement of energy. And that energy is suffused with that intelligence. So it's an intelligence energy. That's all it is. It's all in essence, patterning and expressing as everything. And you can't be even how you think you are, or believe it or not, you can't be anything other than that. That spontaneous patterning that's appearing right now only lasts a moment. It seems continuous. All the sensations and all the feelings and emotions, everything is normal, spontaneous. So nothing has ever been contaminated or corrupted by any of it.
Not from a point of view of a believed and static entity. It's always happening to me, golly, you know, getting suffering and all that, relating it to a belief, a reference point. What's the, you know, if, question, but, you would, you know, this intelligence energy, why all the labels and stuff and the things that create confusion? What was I saying to you? How are you going to translate that? You can look at one of his monuments to fade out. You're beginning to make a bit of sense there, Bob. I was telling Gilbert this story once about when I was out in the bush. I saw this eagle ripping apart a fox.
He couldn't carry the whole thing so he was cutting it in half. And Gilbert made some sort of comment, like, even the intelligence was in those talons and that beak. And I said, mate, it wasn't the intelligence, it was the bloody eagle. But, you know, of course he was right. Another thing he said just more recently, I won't be giving him too many accolades because he gets a swell head on. It's even the glint in the enemy's eye when you're chopping his head off. You know, everything is just intelligence. It infuses everything. It's like the sea. Bob mentions the sea, but all the whirlpools, the waves, the currents, the eddies, you know, when are any of those things never the sea?
When was the wave never the water? I like that about it. So realistically, you can't be anything but spontaneous. That's it. Yeah. Well, you know that. Yeah. You've recognised and grasped that. Why are you bursting into a song right now? Oh, good question. Hen books are under the chairs by the way. Yeah. Could be bursting into another question. OK. And we cling onto this me, you know, as if you're not going to exist without it. But there's a great joy in just seeing it doesn't exist. I've been having fun playing with that whole idea. idea you know that that how when that idea of me comes up as a sort of distinct entity apart from pure consciousness and um it's interesting because because when when that thought's there it actually contains like the edges of it as well like that's how that's how i know that's a mean thought because when i look at it it's it's it's it feels like it's in a container you know and that and that creates the it sort of makes everything flow more intensely and everything like that but it's suddenly an idea in the moment of looking at actually start to look at it the edges go and then it's gone well another thing bob points out is that there's no static point anywhere that's devastating if you really see the meaning of that can you explain that a little bit because i've heard that a few times but i think it's something that quite resonates with me there's no static point anywhere in this universe there's not a static point anywhere what do you mean by a static there's no there's no point that's stationed everywhere i'm moving unchanging it's all energy right there's no static point so this me i believe that this may have some continuous sort of permanence to it but it's not and it and the very belief in it causes suffering it burns it burns because it's not real and we keep putting energy into it and how stupid are we to keep doing that but it's it's not there's no entity there so there's no one stupid or wise it's just the way that it plays out and what i said earlier about awareness the the way that awareness displays itself is not separate from awareness it is awareness and that display is the gnosis it is the knowing of itself so to speak not two so everything that's happening or appearing to happen is is the knowing it's the activity of knowing and you cannot be separate separate from that so everything that happens in this so-called life is the knowing but the mind divides it up i like this i don't like that i want that to go away i want this and then there's a drama and that burns as a self-center but that is not a static point that's an ever-changing thing that's not real it's not there really it's just energy and by constantly referring to it we have we have drama and suffering it's not necessary and the static point einstein said there's there are no hitching points you know there is there is no hitching point in the universe there are no itching places which is the same thing yeah and he was a student of vedanta too with shrubbing yeah i held it away i think mr gara should you know he said to somebody in one of the books he says you're full of hooks and i straighten those hooks so that everything passes through yeah so i think somebody else or maybe it wasn't the same about it but i read it says like the world is made of um rings and you're a hook and if you go through the world as a hook it will catch you in it will catch every ring or something and then get i think it's probably the same that's what bill said i think yeah i want three free that's a book of quotes there somewhere didn't abound tomorrow but you know i'm not even you haven't said much tonight there's no gaps most profound very good okay we'll finish on that thank you thank you thank you thanks