This transcript was made by speech-recognition software, so names and some words may be misheard. The recording is the original (above).
I'd like to say your names so everybody knows everybody. Gilbert. Meg. Mary. Luke. Heidi. Okay, so we stress right from the start we don't teach you anything here and we don't tell you anything. All we do is point towards and ask you to look to where we point to to see yourself. And that's very important because no matter what you've been told and what you might believe there's nothing that anybody can ever give you and there's nothing you can ever get. And what we talk about is not anything new. If you look in all the great spiritual traditions it's the base of them all. All work from this base and that is non-duality.
Hinduism they call it Advaita. Advaita translated means non-duality. And they try to describe non-duality by saying it's one out of a second. Pointing out there's nothing other than that. See the same thing pointed out in Buddhism, different words, and so it's non-conceptual, ever fresh, presence or ends. And I add to that just this, nothing else. Just pointing it out that is all there is. In Christianity and a lot of other traditions talking about truth, reality and the God. Or God if you like to put that label on it. I say it's omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience. They're not talking about the truth. They're talking about the truth.
They're talking about three things. They're talking about three aspects of the one. Omnipresence means total presence. Omnipotence means total power. And omniscience means total intelligence. Three aspects of the one just like steam, water and ice. Three aspects of that. So the base of all these great traditions and all of them is this non-duality, what we call non-duality. One without a second, only that. And if you look at some of those things we just said. They're pointing out in those statements there is absolutely no duality in non-duality. And we don't realise until you have looked at we function from this dualistic position. We are separate entities, individuals, persons.
But that is not so when you look into it. Because another thing we point out is that the false cannot stand up to investigation. And if you investigate some of these beliefs you've had, you'll see they will fall apart under the questioning. Because the false cannot stand up to investigation. That's why we say here right from the start whether you know it or not or realise it or not, that what you're seeking you already are that. And if you start from that point you must realise then that the search itself becomes a problem. Because the search implies there's something you haven't got yet. But if you do this meditation and read this book or do this, that thing or whatever, you will become something.
And you've got to understand that becoming is not being. Becoming implies a future time. And didn't we point out earlier that omnipresence? There is no future time. Time itself is a mental concept. And we'll elaborate on those things a little bit more later on. But that's giving you an idea what it's all about at the start off. Some of you have been coming here quite a while and heard this spiel about the spiritual substance. These words spill over and over again, so we're not going to go through it today. So the newbies to try and pick up what you can along the way. If you have some doubts or questions, don't hesitate to ask them.
And don't be concerned about what you think others will think about you if you ask that question. That's the problem, a lot of fearful of asking the question what will they think of me? Remember what we're pointing out, the me or the I, the belief in a separate entity is not so. It's not so. It's just a continental concept you have about yourself. And that everything comes related to that dualistic concept. So all our problems are problems of relationship, all relative to you. And we point out here the base that you're pointing to, the conceptual image you have about yourself, the ego and self-centered doesn't exist.
If you look into it. So if you're not relating to anything, where does that leave you? It just leaves you as free as nature. We call it the natural state. And have a look at this manifestation. You'll see that this manifestation is a dualistic manifestation. And it couldn't be any other way. There would be no manifestation if it didn't vibrate dualistically. Could there be day without night? Silence without sound, movement without stillness, movement without summit, there couldn't be. So, all this appearance, manifestation is dualism. You know. And as we pointed out, there's absolutely no duality in our job. Who is it? Susan. You need to grab a chair.
You need to grab a chair. Try to move it. Oh, you're not. The sky is too, man. The bird was welcome. Who are you? So, anyway, from that, you can all get involved in it. Tell us what you understand about it. Or if you've got any sensations. Or you've realised something. Or you're stuck with something. And get into it. Who wants to kick it off? I'll kick it off. Yes, sir. Well, it came to me the other day that what we're looking out into is what we're looking out from. Exactly. And just the light of consciousness just rebuilds this space. This aware space. And that's what we are.
Yeah. So, it came to you. You didn't have to think it out. You just doubled up. There you go. It's like space-like awareness. You know, the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. Or space-like awareness, that kind of thing. So, everything appears in this space. And, you know, waking, sleeping, all that. Identified consciousness, the separate self, appears in this space. The body. And the space is always there. It's revealed by the light of consciousness. I put it that way. You put it that way. But space is obviously always there. And it's the reality we are. That's right. A pewter thing. That's right. So, you recognise that's always been so.
And it's effortless. Yeah. I call it space-like awareness. Another way of putting it, awareness. The natural state. And as you say, it came to you. You didn't have to think it out. It works now. The innate intelligence reveals itself. So, the innate intelligence is intelligence and it's permeated through this space. Now, all this manifestation is the content of space. Now, does space have any centre? Does it have any circumference? Can you say it starts here and ends there? So, it has no shape or no form. It's empty. Fewer emptiness. So, all this manifestation is the content of space. So, space is no thing. And all this content appearing as seems, coming from space, can something come from nothing?
Obviously not. You don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work that out. So, all this manifestation is still the same space-like awareness. Appearing, vibrating to different patterns, shapes and forms. But the patterns, shapes and forms are still the same. The patterns, as you say, are nothing but the space. The hearing is different. And there's no inner space, outer space, my space. There's just space. There's space. Not even space because you can't give it any shape or form where they say it's unceasing. Well, it's unceasing because it never began. Something that's never began can't have ceased. And space is not affected by what appears in space?
No. Well, have a look at the outside in nature. Tsunamis, civilisations rise, civilisations fall, volcanoes, patterns break apart, planets blow up, planes fall apart and everything like that. But has space ever been affected by anything? Can you take anything away from it? Can you add anything to it? And that is all there is. There's nothing other than that. You must be that also. Vibrating and patterning as this particular shape and form. A natural expression. A natural expression of that space-like awareness which we've taken ourselves to be something solid and substantial. And that's why in the Sargadatta I tell you don't pretend to be what you're not.
And don't refuse to be what you are. We're pretending to be this person, this entity. But we're not that. And we're refusing to be what we are. We are no thing. And when I say no, I think people take that to mean a vacuum or a void. No thing. All this manifestation are things. The carpet, the chair, this, that, you, me are all things. Take those labels off. They are no thing. And there's nothing separate from that. So you are that. So a good idea is not to label anything if possible. Well, you're going to label things. But the difference is if you know the truth about it, you know, is the label going to affect you?
You're going to believe it. You can use that word to communicate or say this, that, or that. Mm-hmm. And when I say, you know, the person, have a look, where did that word person come from? The ancients knew it when they formed these words, as some other language would call them. It came from persona, a mask. Pointing out that we've got this mask of identity around ourselves, a conceptual image. It's just a mask of concept, ideas. Or another way of looking at it is per meaning through and sona, sound. Through a sound, a vibration. And then look at all this manifestation, this sound, it's full of sound.
Everything has sound, or the voice of your mind. The waves have a sound, the water has a sound, you know. Leaves rustling in the tree, everything has a sound, no particular sound. We have the sound which we've formulated labels or words. And we take the label or the word to be the thing. That's one thing we point out, but the word is never the thing. Have a look at that. Can you drink the word water? Say water, water for the rest of your life, because you can never drink the word. It won't quench the thirst. You won't drown and you can't swim in it. The word fire burns your mouth when you speak it.
You can't cook water, you can't warm yourself with it. It doesn't burn your mouth when you speak it. So the word is never the thing. And we've learnt all these words and taken the word to be real. So we're ignoring our true nature, we refuse it. When he says don't pretend to be what you're not, we pretend to be what we're not. We're refusing to be what we are. We are no thing. But we all want to be something because we think we give it more substance. And you've been this thing as far back as you can remember, or think you have been. And look at all the shit it's got into you.
All the trouble, all the psychological problems it's got you into. From relating to that mental image. If something doesn't fit that image, you're unhappy about it, you're anxious about it, you're fearful about it. All your psychological suffering comes about from the belief in these labels and things. That really resonates with me. And what Victor said, what I'm looking into is what I'm looking out of. But it comes back to a question I'm asking you every few weeks. And that's this business about, tell me again why emptiness is form and form is emptiness. But there was a connection during the week that I thought, hang on, now I can really put this to Bob.
I've always understood form, something, and emptiness as opposites. And that's what I can say to Bob. Then I realised, hang on, Bob says that the mind functions in terms of opposites all the time. So maybe that's what was preventing me from just sort of going along with this, emptiness is form and form is emptiness. Do you really see that, Bob? When emptiness is form, and the form can't be anything other than emptiness, is there an opposite there? No, no. You're pointing out it's one and the same thing, different aspects. Yeah. And if what Nick said resonates, you're just seeing it. Yeah, yeah. You are that emptiness, that space-like awareness.
And realise you've never been anything other than that, though there's been the appearances of it we've taken to believe in and believe around. But we are this cognising emptiness, we're not the body nor any thought that arises. Yet we've taken ourselves to be the body and the thought all the time. Can you talk a bit about time and how, you know, time arises? I mean, it's all presence, as you say, but how does this idea of time arise? Well, have a look at that and point it out continually, you know. If you ask yourself right now, is there a past if I don't think about it?
Investigate and see. You pause the thought for a moment, and without a thought, what can you say? Can you say there's a past or a future? You can't. And Shakespeare told you that years ago, and he said, Nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. So past and future. But you'll say, I was in the past. And I'll say, well, try and actually live a moment ago. Any of you in this room, go back and try and live five minutes ago, last week, or yesterday, you can't go back and live a moment in. But you can recall it. And you realise the only actuality you're giving it is when you're recalling it right now.
Because nobody can tell me, what you thought of even a minute ago now, and that's just recalling it's already gone. And the same with the future. You can anticipate and imagine what you're going to do when you leave here, but you can't live a moment in the future. And the anticipating and imagining is going on right in this immediacy. So a lot of people say you've got to try and stay. And I'll say, try and get out of it. Because there's nowhere to go. It's always this immediacy when you look at it closely. And see how we get caught up in the way thinking operates.
And seemingly divides into past and future, conceptually. So you never ever let, that's how time seemingly happens. And time, you look at it closely, is duration. For me to get to the end of the room would take duration, which would be time. And that duration to me, it's got to take place in volume, space. Space is volume. But can you find a centre for space? Or a circumference of space? Or any point we can say this is where space begins, or this is where it ends? You realise you can't. So you also see that there is no volume. When you're trying to, looking in and say, trying to look, watch it.
Try and point out when now is. Try and find now. If you think this now is a moment of time. Can you pinpoint now? Because as you're saying now, it's already ending. And as it's already ending, it's beginning again. So it's a spontaneous activity. All this manifestation is spontaneous. You know. Not time bound or space bound at all. So recognising that there is no time, no space. Can there be a path? We've got a so-called spiritual path. Can there be a path that's not taking place in timeless space? Can't be. And can there be a destination? Can there be somewhere to go or get to without time or space?
There can't be. Where does that lead you? Have you fallen apart and disappeared in the recognition that it's always a simultaneous thing? You haven't. That knowing is still there. So you must be that. We call it knowing. The I-N-G, it's something that's seemingly happening in this immediacy. And then the thought will come up, I know. As soon as you say I know, you've formed a subject. A knower. It's believed in entities and taken on its objective. I know. And what's the know? Whatever's going on, I know this or I know that. That's become the object. So knowing is seemingly split up into subject and knowing.
It's seemingly split up into subject-object, which is dualism. But look at it. Can there be a knower without that knowingness? The intelligence energy. You realize there can't be a knower that's not knowing. Can there be the known without the knowing? There can't be the knower or the known without that knowing. So the knowing is the actuality. What is knowing? Knowing is the same as being. As they call it in Hinduism, the five factors, Sat-Citta-Nanda, Nama-Rumas. Sat-Citta-Nanda is existence, consciousness, bliss. Or being, knowing, loving. Is anybody not being right now? Anybody not knowing? And we all love to be. Anybody want to be out of it right now?
And the Nama-Rumas, that's the name and form. The patterns we've got, the words we've learnt, the concept we've got, formulated a label to put on these things. That's the name and the pattern that's appearing in them, which is constantly changing. All this manifestation is transient. That body you're sitting in now is not the same body you walked into this room with. Cells are dying right now and being replaced. And it's not the same body you had 20 or 30 years ago. You know that preserved. But it's the same knowing that's suffusing it. If you're not adding all these concepts onto that knowing, it's the same pure knowing that's always never been there.
That's what we're pointing to. Non-dual essence, one without a second. So the non-dual essence is ever-present and bodies arise and fall in that, so to speak. But we think the stories about, or Michael thinks the stories about, our past and our projected future. When the story, well there's no story, it's just, it's always now, and it's always been now, and all the stories arise and disappear in the now. Well that Buddhist statement we made at the start, you know, non-conceptual, ever-fresh presence awareness. Non-conceptual, I haven't got any labels from it. And the ever-fresh means it's spontaneous. Not some past argument, it's the ever-fresh, spontaneous thought that is arising right now.
So there again, and that ever-freshness, you're into the spontaneity of it. Not a conceptual time, it began a moment ago, it'll continue. No, it seems continuous, it's not. It's always ever-fresh. And because it seems continuous, again, we put the label tight. We go back and try and formulate when it began. It's got to go back to the Big Bang, some science has happened and so on. So how do they know? They don't know. Try and work it out. What was there before that so-called Big Bang came, was it? It must have been in space. Can anything ever conceptualise, postulate or think of, that could be outside of space?
And going into space is no thing. So, birth and death are conceptual events then, in a way. If it's just ever-present, then where's birth and where's death? That's right. We'll have a look at that. Where did you begin? You'll say, I began at birth. But can anyone actually remember your birth? You can't. You can only go back so far in time before that you don't remember. Look into it a bit further and investigate it. You'll see that same animating life essence, that intelligence energy that formulated your father. That's what it is. And the same animating life intelligence energy, the life essence formed your mother, that pattern you call your mother.
In the mother, a little microscopic particle, an egg or an ovum formed. You can't even see what an egg is. And that ovum was suffused with an innate intelligence because it knew what to do. It didn't even have to fix itself onto the wall of the uterus, or wherever it was. It had to attach itself to the wall of the uterus. And the same with the sperm, another microscopic particle, you can't see with an naked eye. It was suffused with an innate intelligence because it knew what to do. It swam. It has the capacity of swimming to the end of it. And it knew where to swim to.
And it knew what to do to penetrate that ovum. And instead of those two cells coming together, the intelligence energy knew what to do. It doubled that cell, doubled it again, and then that little doubling of the cell, the blueprint that was in there from James Wendland, knew to form that little embryo. Little fetus, what were you doing about it then? Was that a bit of a grow of a finger, or a hand, or a lung, or a heart? You really had no sign of it whatsoever. And you can trace it back beyond that if you want to. It never had any beginning. Anywhere. Just patterns of form, patterns play around, and patterns, shapes, and forms disappear.
But it's still the emptiness, the spaciousness. So from that, the little embryo grew into the little child. And you look at a little child now, you'll see that it's the same. The little child hasn't got any words at that stage, hasn't got any reason, hasn't got any discrimination. He's just seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, functioning naturally, spontaneously, and effortlessly. It's only at about two, two and a half, when the capacity of reason develops that the separation comes about with that reason, because he learns words, and that's from his parents. And look at that. Every word you've ever spoken, or ever likely to speak, has been learned.
Required. There is no word that is your natural state. It's all learned stuff we've added onto it. The energy of belief going in, and make it seemingly real. And putting that belief in the reality of it, that causes all our psychological problems. So what's really born is the knowingness? Knowingness is what we could say is really born? Just this knowing? That knowingness was in that sperm and ovum. It was in the father and the mother. It was in this space like... That's... That's... That's set you to learn. Being, knowing, that will be. Being and knowing is that emptiness, cognising emptiness. It's no thing. But it's not separated.
And we couldn't have any words, thoughts, if that capacity of reasoning wasn't in that pattern. So... The pattern in which these things express through. There's this body. You couldn't have a mind if you didn't have the body. And the mind, you couldn't have a mind unless it was patterning, shaping and forming in that space like intelligence. So these are just vehicles in which this intelligence enters the space like awareness expresses through, pattern shapes and forms through. As I say, the Buddha called it the cognising emptiness. And emptiness is a fuse with the innate intelligence or cognising or knowing. And he said emptiness is form, pointing out that this emptiness is just...
is just... you know... spontaneous form. And the form, he says, there are... So the emptiness is just like that space also. And it forms into different pattern shapes. And he said the form can be nothing other than the emptiness, even though it's appearing as different, taking on some shape and pattern. If it's pure space, you know, there's no... What can you say about space? It is formless. No form in it whatsoever. And the forms appear in it, and the forms disappear in it, because form is emptiness. Doesn't mean to say it's going to change, you're still going to recognize. The difference is, the old scripture is saying, is know the truth, the truth will set you free.
You're free of the belief of the bondage all these beliefs we've taken on, that's seemingly real and seemingly held us up. And we use metaphors to point that out. To go down to the ocean, I'll say, get me a bucket of blue water. He'll say, don't be stupid, because you know you'll never get a bucket of blue water out of the ocean. You know, when you go down and it looks blue, it appears to be blue, it seems to be blue. Pull the water out of the bucket, it's clear. And we take on the belief that it is blue. But once you see that and once you recognize, you're not going to lose its appearance of blueness.
It's going to lose its belief that it is blue. You know the truth about it. As I say, years ago when people looked out where the sea and the sky met, they were told, don't go out there, you'll fall off the edge of the earth. And people believed that, until it was investigated. Who would believe today? Because you know the earth is not flat, but if you look, get down on the shore and you look out to where the horizon is, it seems to be overseas to the earth. Still it seems to be so. Well the water in the Mirage, you drive up to where what was believed to be water on the road, the Mirage, it disappears, because it never was there.
And it seems to be. Go out and see a rainbow, an arch in the sky, a rainbow with all these colors in it, which is investigated, but it's not there. You see it's nothing but the sun shining through the mist that formed these colors. Just like the sun shining through a crystal. You've got to play a crystal and it'll break up into patterns of light. It appears to be so, but when you investigate it, you see the truth of it, there's no light in the crystal. And that's where we point. You've got to look at these things, investigate it and see for yourself. But you couldn't possibly be anything other than that life, this is what I call intelligence energy, for want of a better word.
Don't use the term God here because you can get confused with that term, purely and simply we come from different backgrounds. Some of us might be atheists or agnostic, start talking about God to them, it's all less crap. Some of us can be Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims or whatever, start talking about God to them, well no, that doesn't fit my belief or my understanding, we don't want to borrow it. But I use the term intelligence energy, and you've got to use that, that's just a label too, that's not it. Intelligence, another term for intelligence is knowing. Everybody is knowing right now, the ING on it gives something that's happening right now, it's amazing.
And the energy, the ING on it gives it something that is happening right in this moment, an activity. Isn't any activity a movement of energy? That's where I get intelligence energy, the activity of knowing. And isn't that going on in each and every one of you right now? So you must recognise that what's enabling that to happen, if you want to put a label on it, is that pure intelligence energy. And then you might understand the Mahabhaka, the great word to put out, now I am that, this is that, I am that, this is that, now I am that, everything is that. You recognise your true nature, you are that.
The habit pattern for labelling is, well, very strong, I was going to say. It just seems, there's a resistance, it seems, and maybe it's just habit pattern, that's what's always happening. You know, like I feel quite anxious right now, but I'm labelling it as anxiety, because it's, I don't know, it's almost, whether that's just the habit pattern, so then there's not the experiencing of it, instead there's the working it out to avoid it or something. So you're labelling it as anxiety, and you're not just doing it, you're just doing it. You're labelling it anxious. How could you label it that? Just from past? Yes. What I've labelled it as in the past.
You've experienced that sensation, which we've called anxiety, another sensation we call fear. So without that label, what is it fresh and new right now? Without a label. Unpleasant. Hmm? Unpleasant. Yeah, it's a label. But that's a label too. It's a label too. Hmm. But when does that sensation, what you call a sensation, what's happening? So, and what is now? Without a label, without putting any label to that sensation. Well, it's just what is. Yeah, what is. It's just what's there. Exactly. What is all put on a label? It's just presence awareness. It's happening presently, and there's an awareness or a knowing of it, and you don't put the name in form on it.
That's the existence of consciousness. It's the Nama rubric. So seeing it as it is right now, ever fresh, presently, spontaneous, how long is it going to stay if you're not fixating on it, trying to alter it, modify it or correct it, trying to change it? Hmm. You have to have a look. Where are yesterday's thoughts now? They're gone. Where were thoughts about an hour ago? Gone. So you realise that thought doesn't last forever, unless it's fixated on it, deliberately kept there. Hmm. So you realise that this, how do you call it, anxiety, without giving it a label, seeing it fresh in you, and you're going to be able to see it.
Yeah. So, you know, you're going to be able to see it. Yeah. So, you know, giving it a label, seeing it fresh in you, you've got to look at it in a different light, see it in a different way. Hmm. And you might find something interesting in it, or some revelation, or some insight or something. Shall we turn the heater up, Bob? It's getting quite warm in here. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah, it's getting there, man. Getting cooked. So when the Saga data says, you know, thinking is going on, it's, you know, when you pause a thought, you know, you're going to be able to see it.
Or, you know, what's wrong with right now, unless you think about it, there has to be a pause, and thinking stops, but then it will always resume, because that's what happens. And I read somewhere the other day, and he was saying about, thinking is always happening, but there's holes in it. I'm sure that's what it said. Who said that? The Saga data. Do you know that one? No, but thinking, with the holes in it, it's going to be a little bit more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the Saga data, it's going to be a little bit more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But with the holes, it'll be the reg, always gaps in thinking.
Can you talk about that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, what do you think about that? Thinking, as you say, will always be going on. But, what's wrong with it, unless you label it, put a point to it, put the finger onto it. I hope I've written the word. So, thinking is happening, but it's not happening. Yeah. So, I think that's what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that's what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The seeing, just the same as seeing. Seeing is always happening too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you say I see. As soon as you say I see, you've formed a seer, a subject. That's the division, a seeming subject.
And then, what you see, the chair, become the object. So, you've divided the seeing into subject and object. There couldn't be a subject, a seer, without seeing. There couldn't be the object, the seeing, without seeing. So, the same as thinking. Couldn't be a thinker, without the thinking. Couldn't be the thought without the thinking. So does it matter if it is going on if you're not putting some shape and form on the thinker? So the thinker and the thought are just labels, but thinking hasn't been divided, seeing hasn't been divided. None of it's been divided actually, only conception by thoughts or labels. And the thoughts and labels, as we said before, are words which we've learnt are required.
So the label thinking is problematic too, in a way. Isn't it? Well, isn't that a label? It's a label. And I get what you're saying to get to the duality bit, but even, you know, thinking is going on is still labelling... No, yes. ...the process. You don't have to label it thinking. No, that's what I mean. Just a spontaneous emanation. Yes, that's what I mean. But if you call it, you know, label of thinking, you know what thinking is, it's not something that's happening separate and apart from the spontaneous functioning. Just a label you put on, just to say the seeing is already on. You're not putting the label on, I see, I see all the time, are you?
No. But has that seeing stopped? So all of this really in a practical sense... I mean, the sort of almost interesting elaborations of, you know, the primary sort of... What's the word? Primary task you set somebody who comes along here, and that is to sort of examine, to see who's the me that's the thinker, that's the seer, that's the thinker. And you have a profound... If you actually just do it, rather than it sort of being a conceptual discussion point. Yeah. You're profoundly effective because you suddenly realise you're not who you thought you were and you never ever were. And never ever will be. And never ever will be.
You know, it's quite profound and it's quite a huge shock. And then everything else sort of is interesting and sometimes important, you know, to sort of consider the elaborations of it. But that's the primary thing, you know. I am not the... I am not the seer, I'm not the thinker, I'm not... There's no me in here that's sort of any substance or independent reality that thinks these thoughts. Exactly. And that's why we go over it again and again and again. Because when the reasoning started, and you were told you were, you know, you were a little boy or a little so-and-so, and had a belief in that idea, you were in the separate entity.
You didn't just hear it. You didn't just hear it. You didn't just hear it once. That was reinforced day in, day out, not only by you, by your schools, by society, your whole nation, every day. And you, yourself, you're taking on the idea and constantly reinforcing it ourselves every day. And you can hear it and something will resonate or ring a bell, as we say, wouldn't it? You remember there's something there. And it might... You might say, this is too hard or I don't want to go this way, I'm going to lose my identity and all this, and don't come back. Or... You might get the taste of it and something will bring you back to hear more and more and more and keep hearing it until one day dawns on you, as Victor was saying, you are that space, that emptiness.
That's all you ever were. No thing. Because, I mean, the other thing is sort of apparently, because we're just talking about time, you know, I might have first heard this almost a decade ago and then, you know, like I think I first related, you know, when I came back the second time, you know, I was thinking, you know, I'm going to be a little boy. But, you know, when I came back the second time, I got what you said and it shocked me. I was deeply shocked. And then I came back in and thought, I've got it, you know. And then, of course, you go into the outside world and then you sort of get frustrated with yourself because you're not this, that or the other.
But then, you know, who's getting frustrated and so on. But even now, apparently, I get lost in the identity. But it's never, it's just, it's never, ever, ever been the same. It's never, ever been the same. Ah, this is intense. It's understandable because you go out there, 99.9% of the world are functioning without belief in a separate entity. It's been put on you all your life, you know. So, and you hear this and people say, oh, I heard when I was on the right to go outside and I got hooked and caught and did it again. Well, naturally, they can drag you back into it.
They're not intentionally, but that's the way the world is functioning 99.9%. They intentionally drag, not intentionally, but drag you back into it. You keep recognizing this, coming back where you're here. You'll read about it, you'll look into it, investigate yourself. And you're going to recognize where they're coming from all the time, from a reference point, a self-center or an ego. Instead of them dragging you, and you'll drag them out of it because somebody will come along and see something about you or will recognize or will recognize there's something that's going on there. And they'll approach and say, what's going on here or here somewhere? And it will give you the opening and you'll be able to talk about it.
Instead of you going out to the world, the world will come to you. And that happened in the past. And that happened in the Sargadatta's case. You see, and I'm sitting in a little slum room in Bombay. There'd be thousands of people go past his door every day. He wouldn't have a clue he was there or what he was. Yet just by sitting in that room, people from all points of the world would find their way to him somehow or another. From all over the place. And you wonder how it happened. There's no time or no distance or anything at all. And after a while, you recognize where everybody's come from.
It puts you in the box seat in Miami because you know where everybody's come from. It puts you in the box seat in Miami because you know where everybody's come from. It puts you in the box seat in Miami because you know where everybody's come from. They come from a reference point or a self-center. So you don't have to take on board with the zone or what they're doing. We go through to the keeper. We'll go around it, over it, above it. But as I say, the old scriptural saying is, The thousands will fall on your left hand, ten thousand on your right, But it will not come nigh thy dwelling place.
Not come nigh thy dwelling place. And pointing out, it won't affect you, won't hit you. And the world still, you know, is still in the middle of the world. And it's still in the middle of the world. And it's still in the middle of the world. And it's still in the middle of the world. And it's still in the middle of the world. And it's still in the middle of the world. Yet all that psychological suffering went on for years and years and years for the anxieties they're having. the stress, the guilt, the shame, remorse, depression, unhappiness. I was rotten with all these things. The flip side of that is that, you know, this is, you know, the biblical term, this is where we're awake in our being.
Driving back into the world again is, has been, you know, is a sort of big challenge in return to remain sort of as much as possible seemingly, but to be remained calm between the years because, you know, there's no entity here that needs to be defended. Yes. So really there's no entity there and there's no world really. The world is just a wide range pattern of energy also. So there's an equilibrium. Nothing is better than anything else or worse than anything. As Vic said, there's no inside, no outside, no higher, no lower. Everything is just as it is. What is means it's unaltered, unmodified, uncorrect, leave it as it is.
Yes. And the alteration, modification as necessary will spontaneously happen. As you know, life is continually changing, potentially. But like, you know, the river, you know, you put, pull a bucket of water out of the river and it becomes stagnant and dead. And what's happening to the river? It's still flowing on spontaneously and naturally. It's going over sandy banks, through ravines, through forests, through rapids. And all the rest of it goes on. There's still only the water. But the water you've got in the bucket is dead. When you get some conceptual idea or image of what we are, we don't hang on to that. And life itself flows continually.
It leaves us behind. And then we get anxious or fearful, trying to catch up with it or trying to reinvent it or do this and that. And all our psychological crap goes on again. But leave it as it is and it will resolve it. And it does. Whether we like it or not. It is, as Jim says, it is easy to get caught up in it. Like, I'm just thinking, you know, 99% of the world is coming from that self-centred and can be with someone who's well-meaning. And they go, you should do this and you should do that. And you start nodding your head and you think, oh, maybe I should do this and do that.
But as soon as you start going there, you know, you've left the reality. You've got to continually, well, I don't know, there's no you that's got to continually... Well, thank you. I'll see you for a few questions. Well, the other way of looking at it, investigate again. And in that investigation, you realise, you know, you've been looking for 10, 20, 30 years or what, and searched hard. And you've never got the answer there. And you look at what we say here, you'll never find the answer in the mind. Because the nature of the mind is to vibrate. And it's always vibrating in the interrelated opposite.
Good, bad, pleasant, painful. Happy, sad, loving, hating. So, and it keeps going on like that. So, it's always going to divide dualistically. So, we can never find non-duality from duality because duality is a fiction. So, when you realise you weren't going to find the answer in the mind, what would you do? You'd naturally ask yourself, well, what way is there outside of the mind? And you look and realise the only way outside of the mind is full stop. If I pause a thought, get that in the very instant you thought, what can you say about it? You can't say anything at all about it. So, you must realise in that moment you're out of the mind, you're beyond the mind.
Because with the causation of the thought, it's not the finish bit. It's not the end of you because the seeing, hearing, breathing, tasting, touching, smelling, all that function is going on. But thinking is stopped for a moment. So, you must realise in that moment I'm prior to the thought, I'm beyond the thought. So, there is something that beyond thinking and under which thinking is going on. And under which thinking appears in, perhaps it's a thought, and disappears in. But that which it appears in, a base is still there. Because the next thought that comes up must be on that base that was there when thought had stopped.
If you were the thought, as we believe it's a thought, it disappears, that would be the end of you. But it's not. There's still seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, all these things still going on. Thought has stopped, but the functioning is still going. What comes up for me now is what's wrong with right now if you're not thinking about it? There's the way of pausing that thought. Without any thought at all, it's always just as is. You've got to realise that that thought is still going to appear. The sea still appears to be blue even though it's been recognised. So, thinking is understood for what it is.
You're not going to invest it with a belief. You're not going to invest it with a belief. This might be unpleasant thoughts or something, even though they've paused for a while or something, they'll still come back, but you can see them from another point of view then, that you're not in them, so to speak. You're not contained by the thought. This word investigation, I wish it was as simple as we all make out, you know, just investigate it. There are moments when I'm sort of lying in bed in the morning often just check, it's nice to check things out and I can see sometimes that the thought that's arised, I had no choice about it, it's as clear as ever.
And since I have no choice about it, it's very clear that there is no one there and there's a lovely spaciousness and yeah. Whereas 10 minutes later, even just 10 minutes later, I realise that the thought, I had no choice about it. Just saying that or just recognising or remembering, it doesn't do the same thing. It's just, I have to wriggle back into it now, you know, and there's all, yeah, it's not some, the word investigation, that's all you, there's a lot of messing around with it. Well, got the gist of it, what it means, I don't even use that word. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
Well, I don't, Bob. I don't know. But in recognising what happened, you know, you know, then naturally intelligence is going to naturally look into this, what this thought is and see, is this the same as what I've seen before or is this false too? So the investigation will go on by itself like everything else does. And they didn't call it that way, you know, you won't be looking to see. Yeah, yeah. This whole thing with, you know, the thinker and who is thinking the thoughts and, you know, Yeah, yeah. all that sort of stuff, I mean, you know, the investigation is actually, is really simple.
It's a simple question of asking, you know, what is my next thought going to be? Do I know what my next thought is going to be? Anyone can do that, can do that right now and you can see that for yourself. There is no way anyone can predict what your next thought's going to be. Thoughts just arise spontaneously and disappear spontaneously. And the whole notion of the thinker is also another thought that arises spontaneously and disappears spontaneously. So there is no thinker of a thought and there is no chooser of a thought. Thoughts just arise, appear and play around and go and disappear. And that's a really simple...
And sometimes that is quite shocking and other times it's just so bloody blasé, you know. Yeah. The thing to recognise is that the mind is time. It's pointed out that the mind is time. The mind can never arrive at the timeless. The awareness, the naked awareness is timeless. It doesn't have a beginning or an end. So all of this trying to get to it is just not going to work. As Bob says, you've got to start from the fact that you are already there. And then recognise that if you start anywhere else, as if there is a start, you start with a concept. And that can only take you in the mind in some direction, in different directions.
You can't go into imaginary dimensions other than this or whatever. And they're all mind content. But the mind is time. So the great perfection is non-conceptual awareness. You can't have any concepts about that that are going to amount to anything that is anything remotely like non-conceptual awareness. It's a direct pointer. Cognising emptiness. What if the truth is, the absolute truth is that you are that emptiness? Tell me about your suffering. Tell me about your story. What is it, mind? It's so obvious. Simple. But we seem to insist on being somebody. Something. When you say mind is time, you've got to realise also that time is mind.
Mind is time. Time must be also mind. So you cancel them both out again. Because we say the answer is not in the mind. So that points out that the answer is not in time. And that's the real cause of thought. You see that you are beyond mind or prior to mind. You must be in that. You must also be prior to time also. So, you must be left with this word present. And look at that also. Pre-sense. Before any senses are labelled as such. There's no senses, no labelling going on. It's pre-sense. It's just a media scene. It's right now. What is wrong with right now in that pre-sense?
Can anybody tell me? You all must be that already. Well, look into this thing called ego. Which is the ego. Which is the cause of all our problems. Selfishness, self-centeredness, self-will, run-white. That we think is the problem. That's a statement in the Bible. And says above all we must be rid of this selfishness. We must or it kills us. Not the booze or the drugs or anything else that kills you. It's the self-centeredness that's the problem. How does that ego come about? Well, a little child, as I say, before the capacity of reasoning develops into about two, two and a half, he's got no idea he's separate.
He's just functioning naturally and spontaneously. He's like something that's attracted to it. He doesn't like it. He'll push it away. If he's unhappy, he'll howl. If he's happy, he'll gurgle. It's all a spontaneous, natural function. As two, two and a half, the capacity of reasoning develops. And that's the useful capacity that the human forms out. And it's the capacity that other animals, birds, insects, don't have to that extent. But they have other capacities that we don't have. A bird has a capacity of eyesight that's much better than yours or mine. It has the capacity of flying. We don't have that natural capacity or the eyesight.
But through the capacity of reasoning, which is a useful capacity, we learn to build glasses, binoculars, telescopes, things like that, that enable us to see much better. Also, to build planes, helicopters and other things that enable us to fly. So this capacity of reasoning is very useful. It's a very useful capacity because computers, televisions, all these other inventions come about through the capacity of reasoning. A dog has a capacity of smelling, a sense of smell that's much better than yours or mine. Tigers, leopards and animals like that, they have stripes, spots in their fur, they make our natural camouflage. If you think the little tiger cub sits down, I'd better grow a few stripes from the fur, otherwise I won't be able to catch any prey.
Or the leopard's livers. Forget about that. I'd rather be up in the tree with all those spots mingling with the leaves and that will give me a natural camouflage. With a cameleon, it can change colour and all these things. All in this natural function of pure intelligibility. All naturally and spontaneously doing it. They don't do anything about any of these things. It just happens naturally and spontaneously because then no intelligence knows what is necessary for that pattern to shape and form or express the way it does. Look at these human forms, that intelligence knows how to express these patterns, shapes and forms. But all these patterns, shapes and forms are the vehicle through which this intelligence functions.
Patterns, shapes and forms are vehicles. And in this functioning body, thoughts arise. They're just a vehicle for expression. We say mind, but is there such a thing as mind? Can anyone show me a mind? Mind is just expressing through what we call brain and other parts. But they're the instruments of expression. Just the eyesight, the seeing. Eye is the instrument of seeing. Ear is the instrument of hearing. The brain is the instrument of... I'm doing whatever it does, I'm forgetting. But could this body utilise those instruments? Yes. What we're utilising in the body. You realise it must be the same innate intelligence as patterning functions in this universe.
It formed this pattern to express through, experience through, just the same as it forms the tiger, the leopard, the dog, anything else. Patterns for which this innate intelligence expresses, pattern, shapes and forms. And it couldn't do any of those things if these patterns weren't here. But all they are is patterns. They have no substance or independent nature. They can't stand on their own. So with the capacity of reasoning, when a little child learns words from his parents, as I pointed out before, every word you've ever spoken has been learnt or acquired. And he starts fussing around, his parents fussing around, saying, you're little Johnny, you're a good little boy, this, that and the other.
And he starts to reason, I am little Johnny, when he starts to learn words. He learns words like I, me, this, that and the other, from his parents. And with that reasoning he starts, I am little Johnny, well this little Johnny is me. Two words he's learnt, now he can pretend. But he reasons that out there, where he's seeing everything as his own, he says, that's not me. That's not I. So when that comes up, he feels separate from it. And with the sense of separation comes insecurity and vulnerability. That's when the search starts. From then on we look into whether he becomes secure or whole, because we've taken on the belief, without questioning it, that we are separate.
And we don't like to be separate. Because when that sense of separation comes in, we feel insecurity and vulnerability. The little child in there feels separate and vulnerable. What happened in the old days? Wouldn't a little child who's got a warm loving family, he feels much more secure, that warm loving family, much happier. What do families do in the old days? Wouldn't they form into tribes? Because the bigger and stronger my tribe, the more secure, the less trouble I'll be. And isn't that going on today? Nations form into nations, nations go to war with that nation. Purely and simply because they feel insecure and vulnerable.
And to add something onto it, another family or a tribe or a nation, or a good company or a good job or whatever, or more wealth, they'll feel much more secure, less vulnerable. All adding, accumulating, amassing. Which we're encouraged to do by our school society, our nations. Acquire, amass, accumulate, add to. Whatever we can to make us feel whole. Nobody's not over-realising. They weren't separate in the first place. Turn around and have a look at that. Investigate that. Down through the ages there have always been a few that have done that. That's what carries this message on and on and on. And those of you that pick it up here will be able to carry it on.
Like it's always been carried on. So that sense of vulnerability is born in the idea of me and not me. Yes. And everyone's afraid of dying in some sense. This fear of death is actually, is that idea born, the vulnerability, which is added to throughout your life. And this huge thing called death, everyone's afraid of. But actually it's based on an idea of being separate, which is not actually true. Yes, that's what was born. It was only this idea of me that was born. You can't remember your birth, so it doesn't come up. It's just the capacity of reasoning. When it comes upon you, you've got this conceptual image.
And that's why a bankie, a Zen monk in the 16th century, says, everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn. He called it unborn mind. The Buddhists call it unborn mind. That's what it is. Everything is perfectly resolved in the unborn. Look out there in nature. And so nature resolves itself. Mightn't be the way we think it should or the way we'd like it to, but everything's resolving. Civilizations are risen, civilizations fall. You know. global warming has happened before, ice ages have happened, all sorts of things have happened in this manifestation. To us, it might feel terribly chaotic and horrible, but in nature itself, it's going along perfectly just as it is.
And conversely, Bob, you know, when people commit suicide, it's really a desire to kill that sense of self. It's the sense of self that they want to go, that they want dead. Exactly. You can't kill life. How can you kill life? Life is always present. It's that sense of me, that miserable self-centred, that's caused so much problem, they want to get rid of. That's what drives. Same with the fear of death, the fear of the loss of the ego. Yes, we get a conceptual image of what death is, and we don't want to die. Yes. No thing. That's Paul, he sort of said, that was Paul's thing, wasn't it?
You die to yourself each day. Yes, that's right. And St Francis told us the same thing, he says, it's only by dying that you can have eternal life. He's not talking about carcass every day, he's talking about dying to that sense of self. And the Sagittarius says, I'm dead already. Bob, when you were with Maharaj, he said he fired a lot of arrows at you. Yes. Which arrow hit the mark? What was it that he realised? This whole thing, what was it? Show him Bob. I'll be meaning to get back at him for that. It's a matter of a natural recognition. We've already cognised, we've already had taste, that's the cognising.
Thank you. Something, you know, you might have obscured or thought over, something, you hear something that resonates and you recognise it. Rings a bell, something, you hear something there that's, you all recognise, you've already had taste of this throughout your life. When things have seemingly fallen into place quite effortlessly and naturally. And then it seemingly gets obscured again, with the thoughts. See that the obscuration is like a cloud that seemingly covers the sun. Outside on a cloudy day, would you say the sun's not in the sky? You know, you can't say that because no matter how dark the cloud is, there's always enough light getting around it.
And nobody gets to see the cloud. If it was total darkness, you wouldn't know it was a cloud, do you? And you investigate that now, look what forms the cloud. What forms the cloud? You realise the sun itself forms the cloud. Now the sun doesn't know anything about the cloud. It doesn't set out to form a cloud. It's self-shining, shines of itself when we say it here. Self-shining presence of it. We're meaning the same thing. We don't have to start anything up. Like the sun doesn't have to start up, it's just naturally shining of itself. In that self-shining, it's what does it do? Its heat evaporates water.
And in that water evaporation it rises and condenses again as it gets up to the cloud. In the condensation it forms a cloud, which is seemingly obscured of the cloud. It's such. And that's what happens. These thoughts arise through that natural functioning intelligence energy. It warms up what it does and doesn't have it. It does that and that and starts the cloud of thoughts to form. And we think we've lost it or obscured it. In the recognition that the sun has never left the sky, it's always self-shining. And you are that self-shining presence of the earth itself. It doesn't matter what seeming thoughts, feelings or emotions are going to go up into the sky.
It is the sun itself that is so bright and seemingly obscured in it that can know the truth. The sun has never stopped its self-shining. And then there's radiation and heat that sends out radiation that can cause a wind to stir or something like that. It will blow away the cloud and bring it down as rain. Other clouds will change its shape and form. And the cloud is nothing of itself. It has nothing to do with itself. It happens through other situations, through that natural functioning intelligence energy. The same with heat. When you recognise that there's an essence of what you believe in, there's a power, there's a form.
essence that you believe yourself to be has no substance or any independent nature and so the little child is functioning spontaneously naturally when he learns words he starts to lose that spontaneity because he thinks now he's not he is this body mind entity and he knows more than what the natural intelligence does he loses sight of the intelligence so he starts to lose his spontaneity and relates it to the me and memory oh i like this where everything is happening spontaneously naturally now he relates it to the me of memory and i don't like that or i do like that if he doesn't like something and everything in this manifestation is a dualistic manifestation couldn't be done without night songs without sound that is constantly changing it's constantly changing so we in our belief we don't want the good things to go we want to say the good happy and loving all the time we really like realizing this transit transit is going to change your life you know the things you've loved and not you know after a while they become very ordinary very normal very boring or they die they move on or they leave you but even the body is changing transient constantly moving and so it's it it's constant change going but we don't want it to change we think we know better we want to keep it there what we've got to be like this all the time so what do we do we resist it and trying to keep it down we're just resistant and you've got to realize any resistance you're in conflict you're resisting something you're in conflict with it you're not going with the flow and any conflict you win is disease if you're in this conflict there's unhappiness depression anxiety stress that's disease uneasiness or disease so the same thing happens if something i don't like comes up i don't like this immediately the resistance comes about immediate conflict and immediate disease so you don't have to be a road scholar to work that out all your psychological suffering comes about because this constant resistance is going on in your body what constitutes resistance what constitutes resistance the belief that you're relating it to this main belief you know you want to change it all the moment you're relating to a fictitious name the resistance you know if you're resisting and struggle with it it becomes anxiety fear guilt shame remorse or whatever else defects come about all based on resisting relating all problems are problems for relationship relative to this may a memory and there is no relationship in non-duality relationship is a fiction non-duality and non-joly so we constantly relate to a fictitious entity and that causes our anxiety our fear so all that this psychological problem is is what they call karma cause and effect relationship and relativity relationship is duality me is the cause this belief in the me is the cause of all my defects what happens that's also called karma and what happens if i investigate and see the cause me as a fiction and ask myself can there be a cause or can there be an effect without a cause when you realize there can't be an effect without a cause so what's this psychological suffering going to relate to it been relating to a false me a false belief there's nothing to relate it to what happens it must be just like in nature it's going to move on it's not fixated on and clung to trying to be altered modified it's free to move on like it does in nature nature is a dualistic manifestation but nature hasn't formed an ego hasn't formed a reference point so day never in conflict with night silence is not in conflict for sound with us not in conflict with someone each take their turn and move on with this conflict that's going on we resist it and keep it there seemingly keep it there with that belief energy of belief going into it so it causes all this psychological crap but it doesn't have to be that that's what we point out nobody has to be locked into all this psychological stuff people in here and they're going to say i was followed years ago but hasn't there been there for many years now people in this room will tell you the same thing you've got some evidence it doesn't have to be this it's got no substance or any independent nature that by that conceptual image or me you've got to look at this one you're seeing right now and you're hearing right now does your eye tell you i see my eye doesn't say look at this look at that the seeing is happening and it's translated by the thought i see i see this inside the same with the ear hearing is happening through the ear that he is not saying listen to this listen to him the thought now when the thought i see comes up remember it's not just a bare thought anymore what we've related to this sort of me bob the australian the good fellow that's done this done that no self-esteem fearful anxious this conceptual image because i've taken a belief and never questioned now i think that me is seeing that me is hearing but if i look into it can the thought i see actually see and you realize close your eyes look around the room see what you can see with a thought you see you know a thought cannot see and the same with the thought i hear i hear this but can the thought i hear remember again it's related to me bob this time now thanks it has the capacity of seeing hearing but can the thought i hear i see can't see the thought i hear can't hear the thought i am aware can't be your awareness the thought i choose is not the choice maker we think we choose our thoughts but who would have an unhappy or miserable thought if you could choose it so this thought up editing has no power or any independent nature to do anything of itself it's only the belief going in it that gives that same gives itself some seeming power but it's actually got no power look at that how many thoughts does a corpse have life essence is not animating and pattern expressing through that body it's a corpse it can't have any thoughts it can't hear it can't see it can't be aware it can't choose it hasn't got any substance or any independent nature so it's that life essence itself that's doing the living take that out of the body and just a corpse just like a computer's got all that information on it you know perhaps the keys type something in you get all sorts of information up but if the power's not turned on what are you going to what information you're going to get you're not going to get a damn word nothing at all so without that animating life essence that intelligence energy how are you going to feel how are you going to be unhappy miserable or anything else at all or good you can't enjoy it for anything without that life essence now you don't have to be a rose scholar to work that out it must be this life essence that's enabled this living to happen the functioning to go on seeing hearing the joy the happiness the sadness everything is being expressed through that life essence the intelligence energy and that life essence has no birth or no birth as we've gone down of course no beginning no end it's got no substance or no independent motion it's just that penalty again brings you back to what you are you are that whether you know it or not whether you like them or leave it and you say it's all or whatever say about it you still know why don't take the liveries and what you don't know about it you still know why don't you take the liveries and what you don't know and then you know it's still there you still know that's the point but whatever you're not aware of that and you're going to say it's all or whatever so we got to be totally aware of it you still know that and recognize and be what you are, as this archetype says.
We pretend to be... don't pretend to be what you're not and don't refuse to be what you are. We pretend to be this entity, we're not. We're wearing this mask of identity, we're not, we never were. And we refuse to be what you are. What you are is the no-thing, the pure intelligence entity. Nobody wants to be what seemingly is no-thing. But that no-thing is the same intelligence entity that's functioning this manifestation, the whole of it. It hasn't got any separation or any division anywhere at all. It's resistance, Bob. What my experience is, like, something happens in life and I don't like it, and I think that it's the, you know, that I'm me that doesn't like it, which is a thought.
And the thought's fighting another thought that, you know, or, you know, it could be a thought even. I don't like that thought, I want to get rid of it. And the two thoughts about an I and... Yeah. And I, you know, I know there's stuff, you know, that I don't do the seeing and I don't do the hearing done in that investigation. But still, there's something there that thinks that life should have gone another way or should be another way. And that's another way for me, really, when I come to it. It's really a position I've taken and held onto in some way as a thought.
And it's become a belief that it should be another way. Until I really let go of that belief, the resistance tends to just keep coming up all the time. Or until I see that the belief is not... That's just another thought, really, the belief. And I see it as being... having the same value as any other thought. Yeah. Did you think that thought? No. Well, that's coming from the intelligence energy also, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. And leave it as it is, you know, telling you to move away or do anything, you know, the appropriate thought, you know, thought will come up and even if you take it away from it or keep it there or whatever it does, you know, it'll express through thought as thought, a lot of it.
There's no thinker of that thought and leave it as it is. Yeah. Whatever of resistance, it's always changed anyway. Looking back at the history of all the things that have caused me so-called suffering... And it resolves itself one way or another, doesn't it? If left alone. Doesn't mean to say that thoughts won't come up. Thoughts will come up hard and fast, you know. And, you know, if they come intensely and fast like that, probably giving you the clue what to do, you know, how to spontaneously respond to it. That pointer that Bob chucks out at everyone all the time, does the thought I see see as the thought I hear hear?
I mean, that's... that really... You know, if that is sort of carried out to the end and actually seen, what he's pointing out with that, it completely just demolishes it. Yeah. It's just any notion of a separate self. I mean, it's a very basic statement, you know. Does the thought I see see or does the thought I hear hear? But in that statement, what you're actually recognising is that the subject, me, can't do anything. That subject, me, is just a... You know, you can't separate that from the thought I see. And that so-called me is just, you know, it's purely conceptual. So the actual seeing is just happening, the hearing is just happening.
And that whole subject-object duality is just a... It's an appearance that appears with the thought. So that can... you know, you can then take that to any story that appears, any sort of thought or story that appears, still operates in the same way. There's still a seeming subject there and then there's the object. But the whole thing is just conceptual. The big one is also, you know, the thought I do do, when I realise that there's no doer. And then, you know, obviously, it's like I should have done or, you know, stuff like that. You realise that there's no should have done, there's no one who could have done.
It is just as it is. Everything is perfect. Just as it is. Even when it seems not perfect, it's perfect. Perfect. And then there's awareness. We could put the label awareness on. But is anybody in this room unaware right now? If you're not unaware, you must be aware. So you already are there. And as Rand was just saying, the thought, look at that, you'd have to say, I am aware, I am aware all through this meeting. But don't you recognise or realise that awareness was there, whether you're thinking about it or not. But then when you think about it, you form a concept about it and get lost in the concept.
When you start, you know, giving awareness on, you make a concept of it, it becomes the object. And for the object to be there, there's got to be a subject. And you're going back to the me again, being the subject, recognise the object. And the recognition that there hasn't at any time been unawareness there, and always the awareness there, you haven't split it up into subject and object. Hey, Bob, that's fully evident when you see a baby or a puppy before it has got its name and gone into the so-called world. It's just that pure awareness there. And there's a joy that's with that. Yes.
There's a functioning equilibrium there. There's no better, no worse, no higher, no lower, no past, no future. They're all equal. The only thing, when we recognise all these thoughts and concepts we have, the nature of the mind is to vibrate in the opposite, be it good or bad, pleasant or painful. You see the good and bad as the same essence appearing and expressing, and they're neither going to be better or worse, and it's free to move on. As I always say, there's no one-ended stick. There's always two ends to the stick. One end might be rough, the other might be smooth, but it's still the one stick.
Left as it is, it's still only going to be the one stick. We try to alter it, modify it or correct it to make it fit what we think it should be. And that only makes it worse. I'm interested in the way we talk here. It feels sudden, you know, to wake up or see it or notice it. I'm interested in the gradual. And in my mind, in the past, graduals felt like a path, when I don't think it is. I think both sudden and gradual can be misunderstood as a path. But there's ways of being in that. But what's the... Where are you measuring gradual and fast from?
OK, yeah, OK. You've got to have a reference. You're still relating it to a reference point. Well, it's true to talk about resistance. And if we have big resistant patterns that just don't disappear like that, there's a being with them which feels more gradual. That's where I'm coming from. Yeah. Yeah. But it's got to be in relation to something. It's got to be... But whatever it is, just as it is. Just as it is. Yeah. If it's like the label, gradual, that's just as it is. Yeah. That's ever fresh in the moment. OK. And it's going to be next thing like the graduals, that's still ever fresh.
Spontaneous. Spontaneous. Spontaneity has to be there. It hasn't got any beginning or any end. As its beginning, it's already ending. Can't be apart, can't be a destination. This life is spontaneous right now, ever fresh. Yeah. Put a label on it, gradual, you know. How long is this gradual going to take? Yeah, well... OK, Peter. Yeah, yeah. You don't have to believe that, but question it and see for yourself, you know. Recognise it. It might keep you looking to see through it more. Yeah. Well, I just want words that speak of that experience as well, because... Yeah, do... I don't know, sudden, you know, why don't we just see it?
How to be with, you know, when... Patrick... People actually do have big pain. Patrick? Yeah. Are you seeing right now? Seeing right now? Yeah. Yeah. Is that gradual? No. It's immediate. OK, true. You're adding something onto it, seeing it, why can't I see it right now? But the seeing is not gradual, it's immediate. No, no, that's true. The hearing is immediate. Yeah. That's the content we put on it, and the content is not the reality. Yeah. It's adornment. Like you've got a Christmas tree, it's just a tree, but you put the baubles, blah, blah, blah, you know, you've adorned it with all these baubles and things like that, it makes it seem something much better.
If we're not adorning this presence awareness, you know, it's not a real thing. It's just what it is, presence awareness right now. Yeah. So being with that, or just being with that. You know, it doesn't stop thoughts from coming up, feeling the notion of it, recognising that as it also, they can be enduring, because the struggle, the conflict about trying to resist on it won't be there. And when, you know, the defects are there, the qualities are there, but when you focus on the defects, we miss out on the qualities. The love, the joy, the happiness. The happiness are there too. We're not focusing on the defects trying to do something with them, and they're not bound into this constant resistance.
There's a subtle joy that wells up of its own accord. Sense of wellbeing, that nothing's wrong. The defects and the resistance are all just mind stuff anyway. You can't just pull the stock of them anyway. Yeah. Enough. When I hear you answering my time-laden questions, or Patrick's time-laden questions, I'm just seeing that you're here to blow all of these concepts out of the water, you know. Well, look at the word concept. The definition of concept is just a mental construct. What are we doing? Making mental constructs with words, images, ideas, of something that has no independent nature whatsoever. It's not anything. You've got to use words again.
That's a point early. Yeah. Yeah. That's a point early. Ram was talking about the point of... The point of the... I was just thinking 20 minutes ago when you mentioned nothing has self-nature. That's always something that just gets past all of my conceptualization. It's a... Beyond... What's that? Beyond all understanding. It just goes... The truth that passes all women. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And you know, the Buddhists talk about the two sicknesses. One, the belief in a... What's the... Fixed entity. The other one is a desire for real objects. And it's that second one that's rather fascinating. It just blows... It just deals with that.
I'm not having to deal with all these other fixed entities in my life. We're doing this with a desire. I want something that's related to anything. Desire to get rid of it too. That's two. They're talking about the two things, but they're creating a third. Which is? The desire to get rid of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's one, love outlet and... You put a positive in there, its love outlet is thought to s Santa's spirit. You have a life, smile and come in because of your love.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Aright. Perfect. Perfect. Great. Thanks very much. You've been very kind to us in Knox County. I just wanted to ask you a question about function. We've been asked... Words mean smells. See your hands. Yeah. Wait. Let's see what that is. What? What? unmanifest. The definition of the human is that which is. So it's the unmanifest which is the reality because that never changes. But the phenomena is constantly changing. I mean it's our nature to tell a story, to conceptualize, and it's functional, it's very very functional. It's just the depth, it's the intensity of belief that there's in you know me with my story that's the doer, that's the thinker, that becomes a problem, you know it's completely self-made problem that causes pain.
Quite essential definition of you know unnecessary pain. I'm interested too that this state of, or not state, this movement to non-separation, seems to have a quality of love. A loneliness which is not lonely. Can you speak to that or say what you think of that statement? It can express in all patterns any possibility whatsoever as it does. Yeah. All sorts of appearances, possibilities are all expressing in this manifestation constantly. But the essence, the nature of them all, can all be broken down into just an intelligence energy. The shape and form of them all. I just thought a weird sort of, those word things alone could be a rule for people, it is all one.
Yes. Whether that's a valid... And you must be that one. ... etymology. You must be that one if everything is one. Good job. Okay, thank you. Well done. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.